FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Is UKIP swimming against the tide on Europe?
Is UKIP swimming against the tide on Europe?
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"No "Actually I agree. It's far more fun watching them flounder. | |||
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"The EU's expansionist policies have taunted the bear which is Russia, it's corrupt and full of failed politicians. We voted in the 70's to join a trading agreement, not for them to take over." So should they admit they are out of step, given what public opinion in general actually appears to be? | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? " Yes I have. This seemed a very straightforward question: "If there was a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union, how would you vote?" It's one they've been asking for about 5 years. | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? "  | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default." ignorant people in the millions..  | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions.. "Over 4 million voted UKIP in the european elections last year. | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? "I must admit to being a little confused by the 7 people who gave their political affiliation as UKIP who said they'd vote for Europe. Not that I tend to think that the pro-UKIP lobby has lost the plot. Perhaps no one had told them what to think that day? | |||
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"Way i see it is lets have the in/out referendum for real then, what are the pro-european lot afraid of? Surely they have the result in the bag if this poll is to be believed? " Well I must say I'm shocked that you should doubt this highly respected polling organisation. Anyway, it's UKIP who don't want a referendum, or have you forgotten that? I'll be quite happy to see one taking place AND to accept the result. Now has UKIP changed its mind on referendums? | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions.. "Yes, ignorant people in the millions. | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? " Recently on a thread on here about cutting foreign aid, i said a yougov poll a few months ago showed 67% in favour of cutting foreign aid. The same pro EU posters on this thread said "yes but it depends on how the question is worded to obtain the required answer" lol. | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? Yes I have. This seemed a very straightforward question: "If there was a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union, how would you vote?" It's one they've been asking for about 5 years." What's straightforward about that other than this : My answer is : I would take my polling card around to my polling station, obtain a voting slip and put my cross against candidates of my choice. | |||
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"The question of whether the UK remains part of the EU should not be confused with support for UKIP, many Conservative and yes Labour voters are keen to see the current EU radically reform or see the UK paddle it's own canoe once again. "Absolutely true - the poll indicated that conservative voters are most against Europe of any of the mainstream (there is a but which I'll get to later in the thread). There's also a striking split between social groups | |||
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"Sorry, did I miss something - if 45% said they'd vote to stay in, doesn't that mean 55% wouldn't?"  | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? Yes I have. This seemed a very straightforward question: "If there was a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union, how would you vote?" It's one they've been asking for about 5 years. What's straightforward about that other than this : My answer is : I would take my polling card around to my polling station, obtain a voting slip and put my cross against candidates of my choice. " As should we all. Except of course if we're having a referendum, because that'll have a question (like the one above) and not a candidates name. At least you want a democratic vote and would use it. | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions."why..??? | |||
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"Way i see it is lets have the in/out referendum for real then, what are the pro-european lot afraid of? Surely they have the result in the bag if this poll is to be believed? Well I must say I'm shocked that you should doubt this highly respected polling organisation. Anyway, it's UKIP who don't want a referendum, or have you forgotten that? I'll be quite happy to see one taking place AND to accept the result. Now has UKIP changed its mind on referendums? " No it will be to leave straight out if UKIP win a majority government in May, and one of the reasons i'll be voting for them. Realistically though not going to happen so an in/out referendum is next best thing, maybe as part of a coalition? | |||
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"Way i see it is lets have the in/out referendum for real then, what are the pro-european lot afraid of? Surely they have the result in the bag if this poll is to be believed? Well I must say I'm shocked that you should doubt this highly respected polling organisation. Anyway, it's UKIP who don't want a referendum, or have you forgotten that? I'll be quite happy to see one taking place AND to accept the result. Now has UKIP changed its mind on referendums? " err think yll find ukip have never offered to hold a referendum as there main policy is getting out of Europe all together ....so on that point no point in holding a referendum is there....doh
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"Sorry, did I miss something - if 45% said they'd vote to stay in, doesn't that mean 55% wouldn't? "You certainly did miss the bit that said: "The lead for the IN camp (+10)", so if you take 10 off 42 you get 32, the percentage for the out camp. Nice try but no (straightened according to EU rules) banana. | |||
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"Way i see it is lets have the in/out referendum for real then, what are the pro-european lot afraid of? Surely they have the result in the bag if this poll is to be believed? Well I must say I'm shocked that you should doubt this highly respected polling organisation. Anyway, it's UKIP who don't want a referendum, or have you forgotten that? I'll be quite happy to see one taking place AND to accept the result. Now has UKIP changed its mind on referendums? err think yll find ukip have never offered to hold a referendum as there main policy is getting out of Europe all together ....so on that point no point in holding a referendum is there....doh
"Doh I suppose they would have to get voted in first, that's a big referendum of sorts. Anyway, it's UKIP who gets obsessed with referenda, moaning on about those that happen in every other country - but that's for a different topic I guess.
How do you feel about the poll? Swimming against the tide or not? | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions."Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections? The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry. | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry."Guilty as charged, m'lud. | |||
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"Way i see it is lets have the in/out referendum for real then, what are the pro-european lot afraid of? Surely they have the result in the bag if this poll is to be believed? Well I must say I'm shocked that you should doubt this highly respected polling organisation. Anyway, it's UKIP who don't want a referendum, or have you forgotten that? I'll be quite happy to see one taking place AND to accept the result. Now has UKIP changed its mind on referendums? err think yll find ukip have never offered to hold a referendum as there main policy is getting out of Europe all together ....so on that point no point in holding a referendum is there....doh
Doh I suppose they would have to get voted in first, that's a big referendum of sorts. Anyway, it's UKIP who gets obsessed with referenda, moaning on about those that happen in every other country - but that's for a different topic I guess.
How do you feel about the poll? Swimming against the tide or not?"Are all the lefties swimming against the tide on the yougove poll that said a 67% majority want to cut foreign aid? | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry."Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK? If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.  | |||
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" What is the tide on Europe anyway OP? The Greeks and most likely Spaniards aren't too impressed. What's gonna happen when someone the size of Italy hits the fan? The financial markets aren't too impressed either (not that they are a be all and end all but they do affect our everyday lives). The Irish and Dutch have actually voted No in past years. " Bloody ignorant foreigners eh, what do they know??  | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their
existence for you. "you still haven't answered my question..why are they ignorant..? | |||
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" The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry. " Lol, how true. One could add that they are incapable of seeing or accepting it. Gordon Brown, Rochdale anyone? Might have been Oldham but wtf. Gonna be a sad world indeed when we all have to think, speak and write exactly like such people. | |||
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"Sorry, did I miss something - if 45% said they'd vote to stay in, doesn't that mean 55% wouldn't?
You certainly did miss the bit that said: "The lead for the IN camp (+10)", so if you take 10 off 42 you get 32, the percentage for the out camp. Nice try but no (straightened according to EU rules) banana."Ah I see now - 45 +35 = 100 -32 +42 +10 - silly me | |||
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"Imagine the British government under David Cameron renegotiated our relationship with Europe and said that Britain's interests were now protected, and David Cameron recommended that Britain remain a member of the European Union on the new terms. How would you then vote in a referendum on the issue? That had 57% voting for staying in Europe and 27% voting against. The swing for Tory voters was up to 71% in favour (from about 40%). Oh and a few more UKIP voters turned out to be pro-Europe. Not many though " Camerons renegotiation is a joke. He's already said before it starts that he will not challenge EU free movement of people rules. On what basis is that to start a proper renegotiation? Oh yeah because Angela Merkel told him to say that, lol. | |||
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"Imagine the British government under David Cameron renegotiated our relationship with Europe and said that Britain's interests were now protected, and David Cameron recommended that Britain remain a member of the European Union on the new terms. How would you then vote in a referendum on the issue? That had 57% voting for staying in Europe and 27% voting against. The swing for Tory voters was up to 71% in favour (from about 40%). Oh and a few more UKIP voters turned out to be pro-Europe. Not many though " On the correct terms and conditions Europe, (the EU, EEC, EC whatever fuck it is this week) has a lot of advantages. I'm sure the good peeps of Fab could come up with good proposals and rule out the excesses of the current undemocratic, unaccountable political elite that want a pan European state, at our cost. | |||
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"Way i see it is lets have the in/out referendum for real then, what are the pro-european lot afraid of? Surely they have the result in the bag if this poll is to be believed? Well I must say I'm shocked that you should doubt this highly respected polling organisation. Anyway, it's UKIP who don't want a referendum, or have you forgotten that? I'll be quite happy to see one taking place AND to accept the result. Now has UKIP changed its mind on referendums? err think yll find ukip have never offered to hold a referendum as there main policy is getting out of Europe all together ....so on that point no point in holding a referendum is there....doh
Doh I suppose they would have to get voted in first, that's a big referendum of sorts. Anyway, it's UKIP who gets obsessed with referenda, moaning on about those that happen in every other country - but that's for a different topic I guess.
How do you feel about the poll? Swimming against the tide or not?"only moaning ime hearing isn't coming from ukip cba with polls only history as the facts are there ..ide vote for anybody cept greens libs labour or tories as I said in my original op on this subject my view is the country needs a complete political overhaul and change from tory and labour agendas.
keep hearing the same old crap bout ukip and cutting ties with Brussels such as we will go into eco meltdown same old scaremongering rubbish ....if we left the euro Germany are not gonna stop sellin there cars here are they.
as for Brussels I refuse to vote tory or labour as they support an unelected and therefore undemocratic bunch of faceless eurocrats. there only agenda being in the hope of making it in to Brussels themelves one day to jump on the Brussels gravy train trough | |||
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" What is the tide on Europe anyway OP? The Greeks and most likely Spaniards aren't too impressed. What's gonna happen when someone the size of Italy hits the fan? The financial markets aren't too impressed either (not that they are a be all and end all but they do affect our everyday lives). The Irish and Dutch have actually voted No in past years. " Would that be the financial markets that included the FTSE that reached a record high last week? The Irish have voted about 9 times on European matters and they voted no twice out of 9 votes. They started with 4 yeses in a row - you'd think someone would have got the general trend from that. Now I know that always starts a rant from somewhere or the other about the EU forcing sovereign nations to vote again until they get the right answer. Usually from people who don't want referenda in any case and don't understand the questions asked or that sovereign governments are able to negotiate terms. Oh and someone else must mention Norway, Switzerland, Iceland as well for their referenda. | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you. "I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected. What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior. Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach? Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on. | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on." | |||
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"Imagine the British government under David Cameron renegotiated our relationship with Europe and said that Britain's interests were now protected, and David Cameron recommended that Britain remain a member of the European Union on the new terms. How would you then vote in a referendum on the issue? That had 57% voting for staying in Europe and 27% voting against. The swing for Tory voters was up to 71% in favour (from about 40%). Oh and a few more UKIP voters turned out to be pro-Europe. Not many though On the correct terms and conditions Europe, (the EU, EEC, EC whatever fuck it is this week) has a lot of advantages. I'm sure the good peeps of Fab could come up with good proposals and rule out the excesses of the current undemocratic, unaccountable political elite that want a pan European state, at our cost. " Don't you think the rest of the electorate should have a say rather than just the faceless people of FAB? That would be far more democratic. | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on."Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless. They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!' So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply. | |||
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"Way i see it is lets have the in/out referendum for real then, what are the pro-european lot afraid of? Surely they have the result in the bag if this poll is to be believed? Well I must say I'm shocked that you should doubt this highly respected polling organisation. Anyway, it's UKIP who don't want a referendum, or have you forgotten that? I'll be quite happy to see one taking place AND to accept the result. Now has UKIP changed its mind on referendums? err think yll find ukip have never offered to hold a referendum as there main policy is getting out of Europe all together ....so on that point no point in holding a referendum is there....doh
Doh I suppose they would have to get voted in first, that's a big referendum of sorts. Anyway, it's UKIP who gets obsessed with referenda, moaning on about those that happen in every other country - but that's for a different topic I guess.
How do you feel about the poll? Swimming against the tide or not?
only moaning ime hearing isn't coming from ukip cba with polls only history as the facts are there ..ide vote for anybody cept greens libs labour or tories as I said in my original op on this subject my view is the country needs a complete political overhaul and change from tory and labour agendas.
keep hearing the same old crap bout ukip and cutting ties with Brussels such as we will go into eco meltdown same old scaremongering rubbish ....if we left the euro Germany are not gonna stop sellin there cars here are they.
as for Brussels I refuse to vote tory or labour as they support an unelected and therefore undemocratic bunch of faceless eurocrats. there only agenda being in the hope of making it in to Brussels themelves one day to jump on the Brussels gravy train trough "Does jumping on the gravy train include not turning up to do your job and claiming expenses and allowances? Why do people come up with the 'faceless unelected eurocrat' line? Is it because they've never bothered to look up who the commission is? Their pictures are available, CVs, Wiki pages etc etc. | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on.
Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless.
They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!'
So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply."Comparison is often made to Lib/Lab/Con/greens because of the accusations that are thrown at UKIP the other parties are guilty of aswel. Sorry but the holier than thou attitude really does'nt wash. | |||
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"Way i see it is lets have the in/out referendum for real then, what are the pro-european lot afraid of? Surely they have the result in the bag if this poll is to be believed? Well I must say I'm shocked that you should doubt this highly respected polling organisation. Anyway, it's UKIP who don't want a referendum, or have you forgotten that? I'll be quite happy to see one taking place AND to accept the result. Now has UKIP changed its mind on referendums? err think yll find ukip have never offered to hold a referendum as there main policy is getting out of Europe all together ....so on that point no point in holding a referendum is there....doh
Doh I suppose they would have to get voted in first, that's a big referendum of sorts. Anyway, it's UKIP who gets obsessed with referenda, moaning on about those that happen in every other country - but that's for a different topic I guess.
How do you feel about the poll? Swimming against the tide or not?
only moaning ime hearing isn't coming from ukip cba with polls only history as the facts are there ..ide vote for anybody cept greens libs labour or tories as I said in my original op on this subject my view is the country needs a complete political overhaul and change from tory and labour agendas.
keep hearing the same old crap bout ukip and cutting ties with Brussels such as we will go into eco meltdown same old scaremongering rubbish ....if we left the euro Germany are not gonna stop sellin there cars here are they.
as for Brussels I refuse to vote tory or labour as they support an unelected and therefore undemocratic bunch of faceless eurocrats. there only agenda being in the hope of making it in to Brussels themelves one day to jump on the Brussels gravy train trough "Cue socialist Glennys Kinnock. | |||
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"Imagine the British government under David Cameron renegotiated our relationship with Europe and said that Britain's interests were now protected, and David Cameron recommended that Britain remain a member of the European Union on the new terms. How would you then vote in a referendum on the issue? That had 57% voting for staying in Europe and 27% voting against. The swing for Tory voters was up to 71% in favour (from about 40%). Oh and a few more UKIP voters turned out to be pro-Europe. Not many though Camerons renegotiation is a joke. He's already said before it starts that he will not challenge EU free movement of people rules. On what basis is that to start a proper renegotiation? Oh yeah because Angela Merkel told him to say that, lol. " Is that right? Did you hear her say that? Did anyone hear it? Or is that another piece of misdirection from UKIP central office? Insulting the man or woman doesn't add to the strength of your point. | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on.
Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless.
They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!'
So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply."Something of a massive generalisation which, in its own way, is rather ignorant.  | |||
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"Way i see it is lets have the in/out referendum for real then, what are the pro-european lot afraid of? Surely they have the result in the bag if this poll is to be believed? Well I must say I'm shocked that you should doubt this highly respected polling organisation. Anyway, it's UKIP who don't want a referendum, or have you forgotten that? I'll be quite happy to see one taking place AND to accept the result. Now has UKIP changed its mind on referendums? err think yll find ukip have never offered to hold a referendum as there main policy is getting out of Europe all together ....so on that point no point in holding a referendum is there....doh
Doh I suppose they would have to get voted in first, that's a big referendum of sorts. Anyway, it's UKIP who gets obsessed with referenda, moaning on about those that happen in every other country - but that's for a different topic I guess.
How do you feel about the poll? Swimming against the tide or not?
only moaning ime hearing isn't coming from ukip cba with polls only history as the facts are there ..ide vote for anybody cept greens libs labour or tories as I said in my original op on this subject my view is the country needs a complete political overhaul and change from tory and labour agendas.
keep hearing the same old crap bout ukip and cutting ties with Brussels such as we will go into eco meltdown same old scaremongering rubbish ....if we left the euro Germany are not gonna stop sellin there cars here are they.
as for Brussels I refuse to vote tory or labour as they support an unelected and therefore undemocratic bunch of faceless eurocrats. there only agenda being in the hope of making it in to Brussels themelves one day to jump on the Brussels gravy train trough
Cue socialist Glennys Kinnock. "Why is she a FAB member? | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on.
Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless.
They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!'
So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply.
Comparison is often made to Lib/Lab/Con/greens because of the accusations that are thrown at UKIP the other parties are guilty of aswel. Sorry but the holier than thou attitude really does'nt wash. "It's true. I saw on here a day or so ago someone accusing the Green party in Europe of colluding with a paedophile because of some thirty year old charge, without even acknowledging paedophile accusations against his own party in the last year. It's that business of attacking the person rather than coming up with some facts which is troubling isn't it? | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on.
Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless.
They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!'
So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply."I don't like it and I'm sorry but you can't chose who can and can't highlight your bigotry to you so I have chosen to reply. Your reply said nothing, again, you just displayed your own bigotry. Why don't you say which ukip policy you disagree with and why then you could test your theory. I wish you the best of luck, I really really do. | |||
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"Imagine the British government under David Cameron renegotiated our relationship with Europe and said that Britain's interests were now protected, and David Cameron recommended that Britain remain a member of the European Union on the new terms. How would you then vote in a referendum on the issue? That had 57% voting for staying in Europe and 27% voting against. The swing for Tory voters was up to 71% in favour (from about 40%). Oh and a few more UKIP voters turned out to be pro-Europe. Not many though Camerons renegotiation is a joke. He's already said before it starts that he will not challenge EU free movement of people rules. On what basis is that to start a proper renegotiation? Oh yeah because Angela Merkel told him to say that, lol. Is that right? Did you hear her say that? Did anyone hear it? Or is that another piece of misdirection from UKIP central office? Insulting the man or woman doesn't add to the strength of your point. " Try reading between the lines and putting 2 and 2 together.....Cameron has meeting with Angela Merkel, then Cameron does a press conference about our relationship with europe (the press conference which was held at the JCB/Caterpillar factory a few months ago), in which Cameron announced a number of measures for the EU.... No claiming of benefits for the first 4 years No claiming of child benefit to send back home to a foreign country, and so on..... One thing he did not mention was free movement of people in the EU, and its obvious Angela Merkel had told him in the meeting free movement of people would be her red line in a renegotiation. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work it out. Cameron is entering into renegotiation from a weakened position before it's even started. | |||
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"as some none ukipper thrown his toys out the pram and told non ukippers not to post on ere awwwwwww didummms "Have you been overdoing it and upset someone? I hadn't seen anyone trying to shut UKIP people up. In general it seems best to let them chat on. | |||
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"Imagine the British government under David Cameron renegotiated our relationship with Europe and said that Britain's interests were now protected, and David Cameron recommended that Britain remain a member of the European Union on the new terms. How would you then vote in a referendum on the issue? That had 57% voting for staying in Europe and 27% voting against. The swing for Tory voters was up to 71% in favour (from about 40%). Oh and a few more UKIP voters turned out to be pro-Europe. Not many though Camerons renegotiation is a joke. He's already said before it starts that he will not challenge EU free movement of people rules. On what basis is that to start a proper renegotiation? Oh yeah because Angela Merkel told him to say that, lol. Is that right? Did you hear her say that? Did anyone hear it? Or is that another piece of misdirection from UKIP central office? Insulting the man or woman doesn't add to the strength of your point. Try reading between the lines and putting 2 and 2 together.....Cameron has meeting with Angela Merkel, then Cameron does a press conference about our relationship with europe (the press conference which was held at the JCB/Caterpillar factory a few months ago), in which Cameron announced a number of measures for the EU.... No claiming of benefits for the first 4 years No claiming of child benefit to send back home to a foreign country, and so on..... One thing he did not mention was free movement of people in the EU, and its obvious Angela Merkel had told him in the meeting free movement of people would be her red line in a renegotiation. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work it out. Cameron is entering into renegotiation from a weakened position before it's even started. " | |||
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"Imagine the British government under David Cameron renegotiated our relationship with Europe and said that Britain's interests were now protected, and David Cameron recommended that Britain remain a member of the European Union on the new terms. How would you then vote in a referendum on the issue? That had 57% voting for staying in Europe and 27% voting against. The swing for Tory voters was up to 71% in favour (from about 40%). Oh and a few more UKIP voters turned out to be pro-Europe. Not many though Camerons renegotiation is a joke. He's already said before it starts that he will not challenge EU free movement of people rules. On what basis is that to start a proper renegotiation? Oh yeah because Angela Merkel told him to say that, lol. Is that right? Did you hear her say that? Did anyone hear it? Or is that another piece of misdirection from UKIP central office? Insulting the man or woman doesn't add to the strength of your point. Try reading between the lines and putting 2 and 2 together.....Cameron has meeting with Angela Merkel, then Cameron does a press conference about our relationship with europe (the press conference which was held at the JCB/Caterpillar factory a few months ago), in which Cameron announced a number of measures for the EU.... No claiming of benefits for the first 4 years No claiming of child benefit to send back home to a foreign country, and so on..... One thing he did not mention was free movement of people in the EU, and its obvious Angela Merkel had told him in the meeting free movement of people would be her red line in a renegotiation. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work it out. Cameron is entering into renegotiation from a weakened position before it's even started. " So there's no evidence of any discussion between them about this at all let alone Merkel telling him what to do. I would say you really couldn't make that up, except that you just did. What you're saying is that they had a discussion and you don't know what they talked about. Then he made a speech and didn't mention freedom of movement of people. You didn't like that so you believe that the discussion they had must have been about it. But you have no idea what they talked about, no basis for that at all. | |||
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"The complacent and elitist conliblab parties deserve nothing more than a drubbing in May, they are responsible for the sorry state we find ourselves in today and have no answers other than more of the same. One thing is for certain UKIP is a symptom of the failings of the main parties and not the cause of the problems." So the stock market hit a record high last week. Is that a sign of the sorry state we're in? | |||
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" Put simply, i would rather vote for an unknown UKIP candidate and unkown policies than continuing to vote for the likes of Cameron, Clegg and Millband and 600+ others from the same ilk, Not to mentioin the massive danage caused to the country by the likes of Blair and Brown. At least such as Benn, Skinner, Thatcher and even Galloway had/have their principles. " True. Who's principles have the UKIP refugees from the tory party got? | |||
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"as some none ukipper thrown his toys out the pram and told non ukippers not to post on ere awwwwwww didummms
Have you been overdoing it and upset someone? I hadn't seen anyone trying to shut UKIP people up. In general it seems best to let them chat on."I don't overdo anything m8 as for upsetting people well ..my sincere apologies to u if my views don't fall in line with yours or theres and therefore upsets them. if you haven't seen anyone trying to shut ukip people up you haven't been paying much attention ...btw any chance you can stop nicking me topics and think of one for yrself | |||
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"45% of weirdos who answer polls agree. " That's 11% more than people who actually bothered to vote at the last election | |||
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"The complacent and elitist conliblab parties deserve nothing more than a drubbing in May, they are responsible for the sorry state we find ourselves in today and have no answers other than more of the same. One thing is for certain UKIP is a symptom of the failings of the main parties and not the cause of the problems. So the stock market hit a record high last week. Is that a sign of the sorry state we're in?" Absolutely it does, i assume you understand what the FTSE (and other leading indices) are and represent? A "record high" index, marginally higher say 1-2% higher than say 1994 and certainly 1997 when NuLabour came to power. Some growth. So i'm not sure why you think the stock market refelects your anti UKIP view. | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on.
Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless.
They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!'
So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply.
Comparison is often made to Lib/Lab/Con/greens because of the accusations that are thrown at UKIP the other parties are guilty of aswel. Sorry but the holier than thou attitude really does'nt wash.
It's true. I saw on here a day or so ago someone accusing the Green party in Europe of colluding with a paedophile because of some thirty year old charge, without even acknowledging paedophile accusations against his own party in the last year. It's that business of attacking the person rather than coming up with some facts which is troubling isn't it?"The green party/pedo thing was highlighted because someone posted that UKIP were part of a group in the EU which included a member from a far right party. So then the comparison was made that the greens were in a group in the EU which had links to paedophiles. The point that was made was many parties in the EU have to form uneasy alliances and groups with other parties that they would prefer not to deal with in an ideal world....but this is how the EU works as parties have to form groups in order to gain extra funding. Truth is many parties in the EU have to form groups with undesirables they would rather not deal with. | |||
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" The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry. Lol, how true. One could add that they are incapable of seeing or accepting it. Gordon Brown, Rochdale anyone? Might have been Oldham but wtf. Gonna be a sad world indeed when we all have to think, speak and write exactly like such people. " None of the political parties is clean and pure - throwing mud at them just invites people to do the same to UKIP. | |||
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" Put simply, i would rather vote for an unknown UKIP candidate and unkown policies than continuing to vote for the likes of Cameron, Clegg and Millband and 600+ others from the same ilk, Not to mentioin the massive danage caused to the country by the likes of Blair and Brown. At least such as Benn, Skinner, Thatcher and even Galloway had/have their principles. True. Who's principles have the UKIP refugees from the tory party got?" True, can't disagree with that comment, but presumably not all Tory (or Liberal and Labour) MP's and candidates were for a political European State in the first instance. Has anyone's MP ever canvassed and represented your views at all, rather than just for the moment when they want your vote? | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on.
Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless.
They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!'
So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply.
Comparison is often made to Lib/Lab/Con/greens because of the accusations that are thrown at UKIP the other parties are guilty of aswel. Sorry but the holier than thou attitude really does'nt wash.
It's true. I saw on here a day or so ago someone accusing the Green party in Europe of colluding with a paedophile because of some thirty year old charge, without even acknowledging paedophile accusations against his own party in the last year. It's that business of attacking the person rather than coming up with some facts which is troubling isn't it?
The green party/pedo thing was highlighted because someone posted that UKIP were part of a group in the EU which included a member from a far right party. So then the comparison was made that the greens were in a group in the EU which had links to paedophiles. The point that was made was many parties in the EU have to form uneasy alliances and groups with other parties that they would prefer not to deal with in an ideal world....but this is how the EU works as parties have to form groups in order to gain extra funding. Truth is many parties in the EU have to form groups with undesirables they would rather not deal with. "AH if only it had been put so reasonably at the time but the stuff I was reading here was pretty vitriolic. | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on.
Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless.
They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!'
So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply.
I don't like it and I'm sorry but you can't chose who can and can't highlight your bigotry to you so I have chosen to reply.
Your reply said nothing, again, you just displayed your own bigotry. Why don't you say which ukip policy you disagree with and why then you could test your theory.
I wish you the best of luck, I really really do."I don't think she has a genuine answer..? | |||
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" Put simply, i would rather vote for an unknown UKIP candidate and unkown policies than continuing to vote for the likes of Cameron, Clegg and Millband and 600+ others from the same ilk, Not to mentioin the massive danage caused to the country by the likes of Blair and Brown. At least such as Benn, Skinner, Thatcher and even Galloway had/have their principles. True. Who's principles have the UKIP refugees from the tory party got? True, can't disagree with that comment, but presumably not all Tory (or Liberal and Labour) MP's and candidates were for a political European State in the first instance. Has anyone's MP ever canvassed and represented your views at all, rather than just for the moment when they want your vote? " No of course not. That's our system of representative democracy for you. Some people think because we vote for them they're supposed to do what we say, whereas the truth is they don't have to pay any attention to us until the next election. Having said that, my experience (and that of others who have posted here) is that in one to one situations they can be quite helpful. | |||
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"Imagine the British government under David Cameron renegotiated our relationship with Europe and said that Britain's interests were now protected, and David Cameron recommended that Britain remain a member of the European Union on the new terms. How would you then vote in a referendum on the issue? That had 57% voting for staying in Europe and 27% voting against. The swing for Tory voters was up to 71% in favour (from about 40%). Oh and a few more UKIP voters turned out to be pro-Europe. Not many though Camerons renegotiation is a joke. He's already said before it starts that he will not challenge EU free movement of people rules. On what basis is that to start a proper renegotiation? Oh yeah because Angela Merkel told him to say that, lol. Is that right? Did you hear her say that? Did anyone hear it? Or is that another piece of misdirection from UKIP central office? Insulting the man or woman doesn't add to the strength of your point. Try reading between the lines and putting 2 and 2 together.....Cameron has meeting with Angela Merkel, then Cameron does a press conference about our relationship with europe (the press conference which was held at the JCB/Caterpillar factory a few months ago), in which Cameron announced a number of measures for the EU.... No claiming of benefits for the first 4 years No claiming of child benefit to send back home to a foreign country, and so on..... One thing he did not mention was free movement of people in the EU, and its obvious Angela Merkel had told him in the meeting free movement of people would be her red line in a renegotiation. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work it out. Cameron is entering into renegotiation from a weakened position before it's even started. So there's no evidence of any discussion between them about this at all let alone Merkel telling him what to do. I would say you really couldn't make that up, except that you just did. What you're saying is that they had a discussion and you don't know what they talked about. Then he made a speech and didn't mention freedom of movement of people. You didn't like that so you believe that the discussion they had must have been about it. But you have no idea what they talked about, no basis for that at all. " I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, will bet you £100 that Cameron will get no joy on free movement of people rules in a renegotiation with the EU. (that is assuming he wins the general election and has the chance to start a renegotiation?) Everything that has come out the EU and from the tory party suggests free movement of people is a no go area in any renegotiation. Angela Merkel has gone on record to say she believes it is one of the core values of the EU. | |||
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"The complacent and elitist conliblab parties deserve nothing more than a drubbing in May, they are responsible for the sorry state we find ourselves in today and have no answers other than more of the same. One thing is for certain UKIP is a symptom of the failings of the main parties and not the cause of the problems. So the stock market hit a record high last week. Is that a sign of the sorry state we're in?" Your investment may go down as well as up, short term stock market highs only serve to mask the fundamental problems that we face in this country. Faced with a Hobson's choice in May of continued austerity and a weak negotiation with Brussels or a p  igate and economically illiterate Balls and no negotiation with Brussels, it is hardly surprising that people are looking for an alternative! | |||
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"as some none ukipper thrown his toys out the pram and told non ukippers not to post on ere awwwwwww didummms
Have you been overdoing it and upset someone? I hadn't seen anyone trying to shut UKIP people up. In general it seems best to let them chat on.
I don't overdo anything m8 as for upsetting people well ..my sincere apologies to u if my views don't fall in line with yours or theres and therefore upsets them. if you haven't seen anyone trying to shut ukip people up you haven't been paying much attention ...btw any chance you can stop nicking me topics and think of one for yrself "You might be being a little oversensitive about something. I wasn't aware of objecting to you posting anything. I've no problem at all about you expressing your opinions. As for nicking your topic, they're not really private property are they? In any case I didn't see that you or anyone else had a thread running on the opinion poll. | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on.
Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless.
They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!'
So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply.
Comparison is often made to Lib/Lab/Con/greens because of the accusations that are thrown at UKIP the other parties are guilty of aswel. Sorry but the holier than thou attitude really does'nt wash.
It's true. I saw on here a day or so ago someone accusing the Green party in Europe of colluding with a paedophile because of some thirty year old charge, without even acknowledging paedophile accusations against his own party in the last year. It's that business of attacking the person rather than coming up with some facts which is troubling isn't it?
The green party/pedo thing was highlighted because someone posted that UKIP were part of a group in the EU which included a member from a far right party. So then the comparison was made that the greens were in a group in the EU which had links to paedophiles. The point that was made was many parties in the EU have to form uneasy alliances and groups with other parties that they would prefer not to deal with in an ideal world....but this is how the EU works as parties have to form groups in order to gain extra funding. Truth is many parties in the EU have to form groups with undesirables they would rather not deal with.
AH if only it had been put so reasonably at the time but the stuff I was reading here was pretty vitriolic. "I did'nt see it a vitriolic, but people are free to go and find the thread and read it for themsleves, then they can make their own mind up. I believe the thread was called "UKIP 3". | |||
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" The EC leadership is not all bad, at least they didn't want warmongering Tony Blair as their President of Europe. Not that he ever wanted the role, oh noes. " Stop forcing me to agree with you  | |||
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" The EC leadership is not all bad, at least they didn't want warmongering Tony Blair as their President of Europe. Not that he ever wanted the role, oh noes. Stop forcing me to agree with you "I'm getting worried now, people finding me agreeable, sssssh don't tell everyone. | |||
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"The complacent and elitist conliblab parties deserve nothing more than a drubbing in May, they are responsible for the sorry state we find ourselves in today and have no answers other than more of the same. One thing is for certain UKIP is a symptom of the failings of the main parties and not the cause of the problems. So the stock market hit a record high last week. Is that a sign of the sorry state we're in? Your investment may go down as well as up, short term stock market highs only serve to mask the fundamental problems that we face in this country. Faced with a Hobson's choice in May of continued austerity and a weak negotiation with Brussels or a p igate and economically illiterate Balls and no negotiation with Brussels, it is hardly surprising that people are looking for an alternative!"Well luckily for my point of view, this week only (perhaps), they went up to a peak. Alternatives are fine, I just wish people would pick them based on the truth rather than some of the unjustifiable propaganda and untruths that get bandied around. | |||
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" Unjustifiable propaganda and untruths that get bandied around. " Hello, Rip Van Winkle may i refer you to the 1997 Election Campaign, results and effects. Oh, and a litlle matter of a skirmish in Iraq. Libya, Syria and others. | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on.
Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless.
They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!'
So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply." | |||
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"Imagine the British government under David Cameron renegotiated our relationship with Europe and said that Britain's interests were now protected, and David Cameron recommended that Britain remain a member of the European Union on the new terms. How would you then vote in a referendum on the issue? That had 57% voting for staying in Europe and 27% voting against. The swing for Tory voters was up to 71% in favour (from about 40%). Oh and a few more UKIP voters turned out to be pro-Europe. Not many though Camerons renegotiation is a joke. He's already said before it starts that he will not challenge EU free movement of people rules. On what basis is that to start a proper renegotiation? Oh yeah because Angela Merkel told him to say that, lol. Is that right? Did you hear her say that? Did anyone hear it? Or is that another piece of misdirection from UKIP central office? Insulting the man or woman doesn't add to the strength of your point. Try reading between the lines and putting 2 and 2 together.....Cameron has meeting with Angela Merkel, then Cameron does a press conference about our relationship with europe (the press conference which was held at the JCB/Caterpillar factory a few months ago), in which Cameron announced a number of measures for the EU.... No claiming of benefits for the first 4 years No claiming of child benefit to send back home to a foreign country, and so on..... One thing he did not mention was free movement of people in the EU, and its obvious Angela Merkel had told him in the meeting free movement of people would be her red line in a renegotiation. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work it out. Cameron is entering into renegotiation from a weakened position before it's even started. So there's no evidence of any discussion between them about this at all let alone Merkel telling him what to do. I would say you really couldn't make that up, except that you just did. What you're saying is that they had a discussion and you don't know what they talked about. Then he made a speech and didn't mention freedom of movement of people. You didn't like that so you believe that the discussion they had must have been about it. But you have no idea what they talked about, no basis for that at all. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, will bet you £100 that Cameron will get no joy on free movement of people rules in a renegotiation with the EU. (that is assuming he wins the general election and has the chance to start a renegotiation?) Everything that has come out the EU and from the tory party suggests free movement of people is a no go area in any renegotiation. Angela Merkel has gone on record to say she believes it is one of the core values of the EU. " See you have me in a quandary there because I'm totally in favour of the free movement of labour which is one of the four core principles from back in the 1950s (that was expanded on to become the free movement of people). I believe that the government should negotiate about other changes and work from within the organisation to help reform it. So I'm not going to let you take my £100. And that doesn't mean that I finally believe your 'Merkel had a quick chat with Cameron' theory | |||
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" Unjustifiable propaganda and untruths that get bandied around. Hello, Rip Van Winkle may i refer you to the 1997 Election Campaign, results and effects. Oh, and a litlle matter of a skirmish in Iraq. Libya, Syria and others. " Have you gone a bit off piste there?When did Iraq, Libya and Syria join the EU? | |||
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" as I said in my original op on this subject my view is the country needs a complete political overhaul and change from tory and labour agendas. " i agree to a point that the system is in need of a review to address the apathy that is evident.. but i don't see ukip as a viable alternative even under the current system, they appear devoid of policies and appear to not even have a consistent message eg on the NHS .. | |||
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" The EC leadership is not all bad, at least they didn't want warmongering Tony Blair as their President of Europe. Not that he ever wanted the role, oh noes. " on that i agree.. | |||
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"There were several polls by YOUGOV, the highly respected polling organisation (according to a frequent pro-UKIP poster here), in the last week. They show that UKIP is well out of step with what the public wants. The first asked the question: If there was a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union, how would you vote? This showed the largest lead for those that wish to stay in since YOUGOV's records began In YouGov’s latest data tracking how people would vote in a referendum on Britain’s membership in the European Union found support for the union at an all-time high of 45%, up from 42% last month. The lead for the IN camp (+10) is also the largest YouGov has recorded since it began asking this question in September 2010. The previous record was a similar +8 found last June. Should UKIP admit that it's out of step with what the British public wants?" 45% in favour means 55% want out. Looks good for UKIP to me... | |||
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"There were several polls by YOUGOV, the highly respected polling organisation (according to a frequent pro-UKIP poster here), in the last week. They show that UKIP is well out of step with what the public wants. The first asked the question: If there was a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union, how would you vote? This showed the largest lead for those that wish to stay in since YOUGOV's records began In YouGov’s latest data tracking how people would vote in a referendum on Britain’s membership in the European Union found support for the union at an all-time high of 45%, up from 42% last month. The lead for the IN camp (+10) is also the largest YouGov has recorded since it began asking this question in September 2010. The previous record was a similar +8 found last June. Should UKIP admit that it's out of step with what the British public wants? 45% in favour means 55% want out. Looks good for UKIP to me..." Dream on - although it is a bit of a nightmare. Anyway, it was 35% want out as we discussed further up the thread. Oh and the gap has been widening in line with an improving feelgood factor in the country - another respected yougov poll came up with that one. | |||
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"It is a curiosity to me how the EU supporters are so against a referendum on the issue. Why? Is it because the open discussion prior to a referendum might convince the not inconsiderable number of floaters on the issue that we could be better off withdrawing from the EU than staying in? By my maths, over a quarter must be undecided (if 42% are for staying in and 32% for leaving, surely that leaves 26% undecided?) Perhaps people might think the idea of staying in a club that costs, I believe, 3 million pounds an hour is too expensive? Perhaps people might think that trading at a loss with European neighbours - as we do - is not good for the economy. Perhaps people might think that if (I use the word advisedly) our economy is outstripping other EU countries we might be stronger without them. Perhaps, if we have a bigger economy than any other economy in Europe (save Germany), we should be able to stand on our own two feet (are we not the fourth largest economy in the world?). Perhaps people would query whether a massive influx of unskilled migrant workers into Britain - thereby keeping wages down and creating a deflationary effect in the economy - is a better idea than having points systems whereby only the most skilled workers are allowed in. I wonder. What can be the harm in considering the pros and cons of such an important issue and then having a referendum on it? I can't see it. I do welcome the fact that UKIP's popularity is causing the matter to be thought about and discussed. Would the Tories be talking about a referendum if it weren't for UKIP? Probably not. Will the Tories put the matter to a referendum if voted back in? Probably not. After all, have we not been promised a referendum for years now? I won't vote for UKIP as I think they are too right wing on many fronts - most likely I will vote Labour. But I don't think they are out of step on Europe." As far as a referendum is concerned I'm totally in favour of it. Voters expecting to move to UKIP and get one will be disappointed Your maths are fine apart from a few per cent that would refuse to vote. As with any other poll there are undecided people. If you were a UKIP supporter you could always con yourself by thinking they'll all go that way. If there's a 74% turn out in an election, those who couldn't make their mind up or be bothered to vote don't affect the result. If we move out of the EU it's not going to change our import needs is it? So we're still going to trade at a loss to buy those things in? Maybe those people will look at the world bank's list (for Dec 2013) the UK economy is 6th in terms of GDP. Germany and France are larger in Europe and Italy is just behind the UK but Brazil might push us down to 7th in the future. Some of them might say that our economy boomed inside the community and it's better to be inside and influencing decisions than outside and following. Certainly a few of us will remember what it was like outside the community before 1975 (an economic basket case of a country) Then when they look at immigration, they might notice that there are far more immigrants from outside the EU than inside. Or they might ask what happens to the millions of UK people in Europe? If we chuck out the European nationals here, how will we fill those jobs? What about those who have right of residence? Anyway, as you say there's lots for them to think about. What I've seen happening is a campaign of claims from UKIP that are basically untrue and would like people to decide on the basis of accurate information - so for example i think you'll find the daily cost of membership is £55 million, not £72 million as your figure implied. | |||
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"For dish, read dosh, in my last post "I'd read a dish full of dosh. Could we make it sterling rather than euros please? | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? Recently on a thread on here about cutting foreign aid, i said a yougov poll a few months ago showed 67% in favour of cutting foreign aid. The same pro EU posters on this thread said "yes but it depends on how the question is worded to obtain the required answer" lol. " They did didn't they? I did point out that that the poll actually said 61% - you'd read the wrong result (for the previous poll). I also provided several examples of yougov polls over 70% in favour of foreign aid if asked a more specific question. In this poll they asked two questions. The straight in out one that showed an increasing lead for the 'in' voters and a more speculative question about Cameron renogotiating which brought a huge number tory voters back into the in vote and an overall majority for the 'in' vote. Anyway, not to fret: polls can always be wrong on the day of the real election/referendum. Mind you there were other polls in the last week saying that the number of voters who thought UKIP had a long term future is getting smaller and smaller | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on.
Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless.
They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!'
So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply. "there u go op the post telling pro ukipppers not to post on this thread..on the contrary my sensitivity levels are not as sensitive as pro labour or pro tory posters ..who it seems can only resort to attacking the poster rathere than the policy ,,I haven't seen an pro ukip posters make personal attacks on any pro labour or pro tory posters seems to be an exclusive pro labour pro tory bigotry thing | |||
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"You seem to be having trouble comprehending words correctly, and are perceiving a slight where there is none. That is often a symptom of being over sensitive "pots and kettles | |||
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"It is a curiosity to me how the EU supporters are so against a referendum on the issue. Why? Is it because the open discussion prior to a referendum might convince the not inconsiderable number of floaters on the issue that we could be better off withdrawing from the EU than staying in? By my maths, over a quarter must be undecided (if 42% are for staying in and 32% for leaving, surely that leaves 26% undecided?) Perhaps people might think the idea of staying in a club that costs, I believe, 3 million pounds an hour is too expensive? Perhaps people might think that trading at a loss with European neighbours - as we do - is not good for the economy. Perhaps people might think that if (I use the word advisedly) our economy is outstripping other EU countries we might be stronger without them. Perhaps, if we have a bigger economy than any other economy in Europe (save Germany), we should be able to stand on our own two feet (are we not the fourth largest economy in the world?). Perhaps people would query whether a massive influx of unskilled migrant workers into Britain - thereby keeping wages down and creating a deflationary effect in the economy - is a better idea than having points systems whereby only the most skilled workers are allowed in. I wonder. What can be the harm in considering the pros and cons of such an important issue and then having a referendum on it? I can't see it. I do welcome the fact that UKIP's popularity is causing the matter to be thought about and discussed. Would the Tories be talking about a referendum if it weren't for UKIP? Probably not. Will the Tories put the matter to a referendum if voted back in? Probably not. After all, have we not been promised a referendum for years now? I won't vote for UKIP as I think they are too right wing on many fronts - most likely I will vote Labour. But I don't think they are out of step on Europe. As far as a referendum is concerned I'm totally in favour of it. Voters expecting to move to UKIP and get one will be disappointed Your maths are fine apart from a few per cent that would refuse to vote. As with any other poll there are undecided people. If you were a UKIP supporter you could always con yourself by thinking they'll all go that way. If there's a 74% turn out in an election, those who couldn't make their mind up or be bothered to vote don't affect the result. If we move out of the EU it's not going to change our import needs is it? So we're still going to trade at a loss to buy those things in? Maybe those people will look at the world bank's list (for Dec 2013) the UK economy is 6th in terms of GDP. Germany and France are larger in Europe and Italy is just behind the UK but Brazil might push us down to 7th in the future. Some of them might say that our economy boomed inside the community and it's better to be inside and influencing decisions than outside and following. Certainly a few of us will remember what it was like outside the community before 1975 (an economic basket case of a country) Then when they look at immigration, they might notice that there are far more immigrants from outside the EU than inside. Or they might ask what happens to the millions of UK people in Europe? If we chuck out the European nationals here, how will we fill those jobs? What about those who have right of residence? Anyway, as you say there's lots for them to think about. What I've seen happening is a campaign of claims from UKIP that are basically untrue and would like people to decide on the basis of accurate information - so for example i think you'll find the daily cost of membership is £55 million, not £72 million as your figure implied. " I think we joined in 1973, didn't we? Since joining we have seen unemployment rise from below one million to over three million in the early 80s. What the true level is now - as many don't show on the official records (and the way the figures are calculated has changed numerous times over the years, always giving a lower figure than the actuality) - is a matter of conjecture. Prior to joining the EU, in the 60s, we had as close to full employment as you can get. Basket case of an economy? No. When MacMillan said "you've never had it so good" he was right. As for the jobs you say need filling, there are a lot who need employment. We don't need mass immigration of unskilled labour. As for the trade deficit and Europe, I will point to an industry local to my area massively hit by being in the EU: the Coal mining industry. The Tories closed the mines down - hitting this area incredibly hard (the effects are still felt here) - on the basis of importing cheaper coal from Germany. Is that good for Britain? Heavy unemployment, a trading deficit and British money leaking to a trade competitor - I don't think so. If our economy needs to be tied to others to profit us, why not the likes of America (the power brokers of the present), India and/or China (likely to be the power brokers of the future)? You don't need to look too hard for evidence that the EU is failing: the likes of Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy etc are struggling. It seems that the larger Europe gets, the worse if is for many of the established members. We might benefit from being tied to the highest and strongest EU states but not in its present form, I'd contend. My fear is that, post election, we will see serious economic problems from the austerity cuts, the full effects of which have yet to be seen or felt, a situation exacerbated by being tied to the EU as it is. I hope I'm wrong. Only time will tell | |||
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"UKIP represent an ignorant minority. You would have to say that makes them out of step by default. ignorant people in the millions..
Yes, ignorant people in the millions.
Were these people ignorant before ukip gained popular support? And if so, were people critical of these same people when they voted for other parties in previous elections?
The most bigoted people are the ones who don't recognise their own bigotry.
Do you have trouble believing that there are millions of ignorant people in the UK?
If you do, take a look at the UK Independence Party. Their base of support will demonstrate their existence for you.
I have no problem at all believing that there are ignorant people in the uk, this was highlighted last week by Austin Mitchell when he said that "if labour put up an alcoholic peadophile for election in Grimsby" they would still get elected.
What I don't understand is the bigotry aimed at anyone who says they may support ukip. Blanket insults and terminal arguments whilst happily believing themselves to be superior.
Can you really not see the hypocrisy, bigotry and rank stupidity of that approach?
Tony Benn always believed that the policy should be attacked, not the person. Try that and see how you get on.
Sorry, no. Long experience here has shown that 'debate' with Fab's UKIP supporters is fruitless.
They either don't understand the party's own policies, or deal with every criticism by saying 'but look at Tory/Labour/Lib Dem/Green/whoever instead of us please!'
So it's mockery only for Uskippers from now on. If you don't like it, don't reply.
there u go op the post telling pro ukipppers not to post on this thread..on the contrary my sensitivity levels are not as sensitive as pro labour or pro tory posters ..who it seems can only resort to attacking the poster rathere than the policy ,,I haven't seen an pro ukip posters make personal attacks on any pro labour or pro tory posters seems to be an exclusive pro labour pro tory bigotry thing "People can get a bit tetchy - some might (will!) even point out that I've been caught out before. I wouldn't deliberately discourage anyone from posting, so stick with it (as long as we're within the site rules). Surprisingly enough if you agree with me I positively encourage it but I think agreeing with me may be too much to ask from you | |||
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"You seem to be having trouble comprehending words correctly, and are perceiving a slight where there is none. That is often a symptom of being over sensitive
pots and kettles "Now you've had a problem comprehending the appropriate use of proverbs. This is not doing much to overturn the prevailing view of Uskippers now, is it? | |||
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"You seem to be having trouble comprehending words correctly, and are perceiving a slight where there is none. That is often a symptom of being over sensitive
pots and kettles
Now you've had a problem comprehending the appropriate use of proverbs.
This is not doing much to overturn the prevailing view of Uskippers now, is it?
"As myself and some others have already said ...we know its difficult for some.. but please try attacking the policies rather than the poster how nice of you to attack my use of proverbs when as a kid I suffered from dyslexia ,,,do u feel good about yourself now my feelings are hurt ,,,ime of to find a quiet corner to go cwy in ...btw I don't subscribe to any political party ime a floating voter ffs is this all u can descend to ..attacking my pronunciation lol | |||
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"You seem to be having trouble comprehending words correctly, and are perceiving a slight where there is none. That is often a symptom of being over sensitive
pots and kettles
Now you've had a problem comprehending the appropriate use of proverbs.
This is not doing much to overturn the prevailing view of Uskippers now, is it?
As myself and some others have already said ...we know its difficult for some.. but please try attacking the policies rather than the poster how nice of you to attack my use of proverbs when as a kid I suffered from dyslexia ,,,do u feel good about yourself now my feelings are hurt ,,,ime of to find a quiet corner to go cwy in ...btw I don't subscribe to any political party ime a floating voter ffs is this all u can descend to ..attacking my pronunciation lol ". I liked the way you got cry wrong but pronunciation right  | |||
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"You seem to be having trouble comprehending words correctly, and are perceiving a slight where there is none. That is often a symptom of being over sensitive
pots and kettles
Now you've had a problem comprehending the appropriate use of proverbs.
This is not doing much to overturn the prevailing view of Uskippers now, is it?
As myself and some others have already said ...we know its difficult for some.. but please try attacking the policies rather than the poster how nice of you to attack my use of proverbs when as a kid I suffered from dyslexia ,,,do u feel good about yourself now my feelings are hurt ,,,ime of to find a quiet corner to go cwy in ...btw I don't subscribe to any political party ime a floating voter ffs is this all u can descend to ..attacking my pronunciation lol .
I liked the way you got cry wrong but pronunciation right "me minds a muddle all these years of bigoted labour and tory rule ..I can spell cry ...just ...was being a touch sarcy ...me bad  | |||
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"It is a curiosity to me how the EU supporters are so against a referendum on the issue. Why? Is it because the open discussion prior to a referendum might convince the not inconsiderable number of floaters on the issue that we could be better off withdrawing from the EU than staying in? By my maths, over a quarter must be undecided (if 42% are for staying in and 32% for leaving, surely that leaves 26% undecided?) Perhaps people might think the idea of staying in a club that costs, I believe, 3 million pounds an hour is too expensive? Perhaps people might think that trading at a loss with European neighbours - as we do - is not good for the economy. Perhaps people might think that if (I use the word advisedly) our economy is outstripping other EU countries we might be stronger without them. Perhaps, if we have a bigger economy than any other economy in Europe (save Germany), we should be able to stand on our own two feet (are we not the fourth largest economy in the world?). Perhaps people would query whether a massive influx of unskilled migrant workers into Britain - thereby keeping wages down and creating a deflationary effect in the economy - is a better idea than having points systems whereby only the most skilled workers are allowed in. I wonder. What can be the harm in considering the pros and cons of such an important issue and then having a referendum on it? I can't see it. I do welcome the fact that UKIP's popularity is causing the matter to be thought about and discussed. Would the Tories be talking about a referendum if it weren't for UKIP? Probably not. Will the Tories put the matter to a referendum if voted back in? Probably not. After all, have we not been promised a referendum for years now? I won't vote for UKIP as I think they are too right wing on many fronts - most likely I will vote Labour. But I don't think they are out of step on Europe. As far as a referendum is concerned I'm totally in favour of it. Voters expecting to move to UKIP and get one will be disappointed Your maths are fine apart from a few per cent that would refuse to vote. As with any other poll there are undecided people. If you were a UKIP supporter you could always con yourself by thinking they'll all go that way. If there's a 74% turn out in an election, those who couldn't make their mind up or be bothered to vote don't affect the result. If we move out of the EU it's not going to change our import needs is it? So we're still going to trade at a loss to buy those things in? Maybe those people will look at the world bank's list (for Dec 2013) the UK economy is 6th in terms of GDP. Germany and France are larger in Europe and Italy is just behind the UK but Brazil might push us down to 7th in the future. Some of them might say that our economy boomed inside the community and it's better to be inside and influencing decisions than outside and following. Certainly a few of us will remember what it was like outside the community before 1975 (an economic basket case of a country) Then when they look at immigration, they might notice that there are far more immigrants from outside the EU than inside. Or they might ask what happens to the millions of UK people in Europe? If we chuck out the European nationals here, how will we fill those jobs? What about those who have right of residence? Anyway, as you say there's lots for them to think about. What I've seen happening is a campaign of claims from UKIP that are basically untrue and would like people to decide on the basis of accurate information - so for example i think you'll find the daily cost of membership is £55 million, not £72 million as your figure implied. I think we joined in 1973, didn't we? Since joining we have seen unemployment rise from below one million to over three million in the early 80s. What the true level is now - as many don't show on the official records (and the way the figures are calculated has changed numerous times over the years, always giving a lower figure than the actuality) - is a matter of conjecture. Prior to joining the EU, in the 60s, we had as close to full employment as you can get. Basket case of an economy? No. When MacMillan said "you've never had it so good" he was right. As for the jobs you say need filling, there are a lot who need employment. We don't need mass immigration of unskilled labour. As for the trade deficit and Europe, I will point to an industry local to my area massively hit by being in the EU: the Coal mining industry. The Tories closed the mines down - hitting this area incredibly hard (the effects are still felt here) - on the basis of importing cheaper coal from Germany. Is that good for Britain? Heavy unemployment, a trading deficit and British money leaking to a trade competitor - I don't think so. If our economy needs to be tied to others to profit us, why not the likes of America (the power brokers of the present), India and/or China (likely to be the power brokers of the future)? You don't need to look too hard for evidence that the EU is failing: the likes of Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy etc are struggling. It seems that the larger Europe gets, the worse if is for many of the established members. We might benefit from being tied to the highest and strongest EU states but not in its present form, I'd contend. My fear is that, post election, we will see serious economic problems from the austerity cuts, the full effects of which have yet to be seen or felt, a situation exacerbated by being tied to the EU as it is. I hope I'm wrong. Only time will tell" Yep, 1972 with Heath and then confirmed by the 75 referendum. Unemployment ran at around 1 million in the early 70s, far from full employment - the jobless figures on election day 1970 were said to be the highest since 1940. The 3 day week was introduced in 1974 at least in part because the NUM was working to rule. Inflation peaked at about 25% in 1975 Britain had to borrow massively from the IMF in 1976 because of the economic mess it had worked itself into in earlier years. As for Thatcher in the 1980s and her battle against the NUM, you'll have to ask a conservative to justify that. How would linking to the US, China or India (assuming they want such a link) be better? If we're importing more than we export it's because we use more things than we make. The balance of trade will still be negative. People seem to want to trade with any area except europe so that they can upset europeans, not for any practical or economic reason. | |||
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"ime leaning to voting for ukip come May. At least Farage can give a straight answer to a straight question unlike milliband and Cameron who if u bumped into on the street and asked them hows yr day going would only be able to reply to you after consulting with there spin doctors in preparing a pre-prepared statement by replying "ok thanks." The other thing that's pushing to vote ukip is this thread I don't want to be a part of the labour tory pretencious supporters society ".. Who could blame you. .... Have you errr considered the greens. I'm just off for some tofu I'll reply to your answer in a bit | |||
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"ime leaning to voting for ukip come May. At least Farage can give a straight answer to a straight question unlike milliband and Cameron who if u bumped into on the street and asked them hows yr day going would only be able to reply to you after consulting with there spin doctors in preparing a pre-prepared statement by replying "ok thanks." The other thing that's pushing to vote ukip is this thread I don't want to be a part of the labour tory pretencious supporters society "There you go, democracy at work. | |||
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"It is a curiosity to me how the EU supporters are so against a referendum on the issue. Why? Is it because the open discussion prior to a referendum might convince the not inconsiderable number of floaters on the issue that we could be better off withdrawing from the EU than staying in? By my maths, over a quarter must be undecided (if 42% are for staying in and 32% for leaving, surely that leaves 26% undecided?) Perhaps people might think the idea of staying in a club that costs, I believe, 3 million pounds an hour is too expensive? Perhaps people might think that trading at a loss with European neighbours - as we do - is not good for the economy. Perhaps people might think that if (I use the word advisedly) our economy is outstripping other EU countries we might be stronger without them. Perhaps, if we have a bigger economy than any other economy in Europe (save Germany), we should be able to stand on our own two feet (are we not the fourth largest economy in the world?). Perhaps people would query whether a massive influx of unskilled migrant workers into Britain - thereby keeping wages down and creating a deflationary effect in the economy - is a better idea than having points systems whereby only the most skilled workers are allowed in. I wonder. What can be the harm in considering the pros and cons of such an important issue and then having a referendum on it? I can't see it. I do welcome the fact that UKIP's popularity is causing the matter to be thought about and discussed. Would the Tories be talking about a referendum if it weren't for UKIP? Probably not. Will the Tories put the matter to a referendum if voted back in? Probably not. After all, have we not been promised a referendum for years now? I won't vote for UKIP as I think they are too right wing on many fronts - most likely I will vote Labour. But I don't think they are out of step on Europe. As far as a referendum is concerned I'm totally in favour of it. Voters expecting to move to UKIP and get one will be disappointed Your maths are fine apart from a few per cent that would refuse to vote. As with any other poll there are undecided people. If you were a UKIP supporter you could always con yourself by thinking they'll all go that way. If there's a 74% turn out in an election, those who couldn't make their mind up or be bothered to vote don't affect the result. If we move out of the EU it's not going to change our import needs is it? So we're still going to trade at a loss to buy those things in? Maybe those people will look at the world bank's list (for Dec 2013) the UK economy is 6th in terms of GDP. Germany and France are larger in Europe and Italy is just behind the UK but Brazil might push us down to 7th in the future. Some of them might say that our economy boomed inside the community and it's better to be inside and influencing decisions than outside and following. Certainly a few of us will remember what it was like outside the community before 1975 (an economic basket case of a country) Then when they look at immigration, they might notice that there are far more immigrants from outside the EU than inside. Or they might ask what happens to the millions of UK people in Europe? If we chuck out the European nationals here, how will we fill those jobs? What about those who have right of residence? Anyway, as you say there's lots for them to think about. What I've seen happening is a campaign of claims from UKIP that are basically untrue and would like people to decide on the basis of accurate information - so for example i think you'll find the daily cost of membership is £55 million, not £72 million as your figure implied. I think we joined in 1973, didn't we? Since joining we have seen unemployment rise from below one million to over three million in the early 80s. What the true level is now - as many don't show on the official records (and the way the figures are calculated has changed numerous times over the years, always giving a lower figure than the actuality) - is a matter of conjecture. Prior to joining the EU, in the 60s, we had as close to full employment as you can get. Basket case of an economy? No. When MacMillan said "you've never had it so good" he was right. As for the jobs you say need filling, there are a lot who need employment. We don't need mass immigration of unskilled labour. As for the trade deficit and Europe, I will point to an industry local to my area massively hit by being in the EU: the Coal mining industry. The Tories closed the mines down - hitting this area incredibly hard (the effects are still felt here) - on the basis of importing cheaper coal from Germany. Is that good for Britain? Heavy unemployment, a trading deficit and British money leaking to a trade competitor - I don't think so. If our economy needs to be tied to others to profit us, why not the likes of America (the power brokers of the present), India and/or China (likely to be the power brokers of the future)? You don't need to look too hard for evidence that the EU is failing: the likes of Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy etc are struggling. It seems that the larger Europe gets, the worse if is for many of the established members. We might benefit from being tied to the highest and strongest EU states but not in its present form, I'd contend. My fear is that, post election, we will see serious economic problems from the austerity cuts, the full effects of which have yet to be seen or felt, a situation exacerbated by being tied to the EU as it is. I hope I'm wrong. Only time will tell Yep, 1972 with Heath and then confirmed by the 75 referendum. Unemployment ran at around 1 million in the early 70s, far from full employment - the jobless figures on election day 1970 were said to be the highest since 1940. The 3 day week was introduced in 1974 at least in part because the NUM was working to rule. Inflation peaked at about 25% in 1975 Britain had to borrow massively from the IMF in 1976 because of the economic mess it had worked itself into in earlier years. As for Thatcher in the 1980s and her battle against the NUM, you'll have to ask a conservative to justify that. How would linking to the US, China or India (assuming they want such a link) be better? If we're importing more than we export it's because we use more things than we make. The balance of trade will still be negative. People seem to want to trade with any area except europe so that they can upset europeans, not for any practical or economic reason. " . I'd like to add the main reason for inflation being at 25% was the the 1973 energy crisis where the cost of oil quadrupled and we were 100% net importers of it. | |||
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"It is a curiosity to me how the EU supporters are so against a referendum on the issue. Why? Is it because the open discussion prior to a referendum might convince the not inconsiderable number of floaters on the issue that we could be better off withdrawing from the EU than staying in? By my maths, over a quarter must be undecided (if 42% are for staying in and 32% for leaving, surely that leaves 26% undecided?) Perhaps people might think the idea of staying in a club that costs, I believe, 3 million pounds an hour is too expensive? Perhaps people might think that trading at a loss with European neighbours - as we do - is not good for the economy. Perhaps people might think that if (I use the word advisedly) our economy is outstripping other EU countries we might be stronger without them. Perhaps, if we have a bigger economy than any other economy in Europe (save Germany), we should be able to stand on our own two feet (are we not the fourth largest economy in the world?). Perhaps people would query whether a massive influx of unskilled migrant workers into Britain - thereby keeping wages down and creating a deflationary effect in the economy - is a better idea than having points systems whereby only the most skilled workers are allowed in. I wonder. What can be the harm in considering the pros and cons of such an important issue and then having a referendum on it? I can't see it. I do welcome the fact that UKIP's popularity is causing the matter to be thought about and discussed. Would the Tories be talking about a referendum if it weren't for UKIP? Probably not. Will the Tories put the matter to a referendum if voted back in? Probably not. After all, have we not been promised a referendum for years now? I won't vote for UKIP as I think they are too right wing on many fronts - most likely I will vote Labour. But I don't think they are out of step on Europe. As far as a referendum is concerned I'm totally in favour of it. Voters expecting to move to UKIP and get one will be disappointed Your maths are fine apart from a few per cent that would refuse to vote. As with any other poll there are undecided people. If you were a UKIP supporter you could always con yourself by thinking they'll all go that way. If there's a 74% turn out in an election, those who couldn't make their mind up or be bothered to vote don't affect the result. If we move out of the EU it's not going to change our import needs is it? So we're still going to trade at a loss to buy those things in? Maybe those people will look at the world bank's list (for Dec 2013) the UK economy is 6th in terms of GDP. Germany and France are larger in Europe and Italy is just behind the UK but Brazil might push us down to 7th in the future. Some of them might say that our economy boomed inside the community and it's better to be inside and influencing decisions than outside and following. Certainly a few of us will remember what it was like outside the community before 1975 (an economic basket case of a country) Then when they look at immigration, they might notice that there are far more immigrants from outside the EU than inside. Or they might ask what happens to the millions of UK people in Europe? If we chuck out the European nationals here, how will we fill those jobs? What about those who have right of residence? Anyway, as you say there's lots for them to think about. What I've seen happening is a campaign of claims from UKIP that are basically untrue and would like people to decide on the basis of accurate information - so for example i think you'll find the daily cost of membership is £55 million, not £72 million as your figure implied. I think we joined in 1973, didn't we? Since joining we have seen unemployment rise from below one million to over three million in the early 80s. What the true level is now - as many don't show on the official records (and the way the figures are calculated has changed numerous times over the years, always giving a lower figure than the actuality) - is a matter of conjecture. Prior to joining the EU, in the 60s, we had as close to full employment as you can get. Basket case of an economy? No. When MacMillan said "you've never had it so good" he was right. As for the jobs you say need filling, there are a lot who need employment. We don't need mass immigration of unskilled labour. As for the trade deficit and Europe, I will point to an industry local to my area massively hit by being in the EU: the Coal mining industry. The Tories closed the mines down - hitting this area incredibly hard (the effects are still felt here) - on the basis of importing cheaper coal from Germany. Is that good for Britain? Heavy unemployment, a trading deficit and British money leaking to a trade competitor - I don't think so. If our economy needs to be tied to others to profit us, why not the likes of America (the power brokers of the present), India and/or China (likely to be the power brokers of the future)? You don't need to look too hard for evidence that the EU is failing: the likes of Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy etc are struggling. It seems that the larger Europe gets, the worse if is for many of the established members. We might benefit from being tied to the highest and strongest EU states but not in its present form, I'd contend. My fear is that, post election, we will see serious economic problems from the austerity cuts, the full effects of which have yet to be seen or felt, a situation exacerbated by being tied to the EU as it is. I hope I'm wrong. Only time will tell Yep, 1972 with Heath and then confirmed by the 75 referendum. Unemployment ran at around 1 million in the early 70s, far from full employment - the jobless figures on election day 1970 were said to be the highest since 1940. The 3 day week was introduced in 1974 at least in part because the NUM was working to rule. Inflation peaked at about 25% in 1975 Britain had to borrow massively from the IMF in 1976 because of the economic mess it had worked itself into in earlier years. As for Thatcher in the 1980s and her battle against the NUM, you'll have to ask a conservative to justify that. How would linking to the US, China or India (assuming they want such a link) be better? If we're importing more than we export it's because we use more things than we make. The balance of trade will still be negative. People seem to want to trade with any area except europe so that they can upset europeans, not for any practical or economic reason. . I'd like to add the main reason for inflation being at 25% was the the 1973 energy crisis where the cost of oil quadrupled and we were 100% net importers of it." Thanks - how's the tofu? | |||
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" but please try attacking the policies rather than the poster " most of time anyone asks a ukip supporter on here what their policies are its met with flannel about go on line and look at such n such.. apart from immigration when some of the comments border on bigotry.. doesn't sell it very well and that's from those who are inclined to them.. on the racist ramblings from those who the media have highlighted surely all decent people regardless of political persuasion would object to such talk..? | |||
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"Won't quote the post as it's getting too long! Just to say my understanding is that inflation soared under Heath due to poor governmental policy linking inflation and wages. Once one went up, the other followed. An inflationary policy exacerbated by the huge oil price hike in 1973. The oil price problem was also at heart of the three day week, wasn't it? Anyway, for those pro EU, do you say that the single market is benefitting the likes of Greece, Ireland etc? And how will we be immune from the domino effect that is in place? Further, if our economy is doing so well, why are we not seeing growth? " . Were not, were just in the next bubble along, this time it's a bond bubble.... Yeah we're printing money like it's confetti and throwing it from the roofs of banks in the hope it will simulate an economy that's terminally fucked because we don't make fuck all because banking was gonna be the friggin future... Err turns out they got that wrong too. Still this confetti is great... You have to laugh when they say the green party doesn't cost any of their policies..... | |||
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"It is a curiosity to me how the EU supporters are so against a referendum on the issue. Why? Is it because the open discussion prior to a referendum might convince the not inconsiderable number of floaters on the issue that we could be better off withdrawing from the EU than staying in? By my maths, over a quarter must be undecided (if 42% are for staying in and 32% for leaving, surely that leaves 26% undecided?) Perhaps people might think the idea of staying in a club that costs, I believe, 3 million pounds an hour is too expensive? Perhaps people might think that trading at a loss with European neighbours - as we do - is not good for the economy. Perhaps people might think that if (I use the word advisedly) our economy is outstripping other EU countries we might be stronger without them. Perhaps, if we have a bigger economy than any other economy in Europe (save Germany), we should be able to stand on our own two feet (are we not the fourth largest economy in the world?). Perhaps people would query whether a massive influx of unskilled migrant workers into Britain - thereby keeping wages down and creating a deflationary effect in the economy - is a better idea than having points systems whereby only the most skilled workers are allowed in. I wonder. What can be the harm in considering the pros and cons of such an important issue and then having a referendum on it? I can't see it. I do welcome the fact that UKIP's popularity is causing the matter to be thought about and discussed. Would the Tories be talking about a referendum if it weren't for UKIP? Probably not. Will the Tories put the matter to a referendum if voted back in? Probably not. After all, have we not been promised a referendum for years now? I won't vote for UKIP as I think they are too right wing on many fronts - most likely I will vote Labour. But I don't think they are out of step on Europe. As far as a referendum is concerned I'm totally in favour of it. Voters expecting to move to UKIP and get one will be disappointed Your maths are fine apart from a few per cent that would refuse to vote. As with any other poll there are undecided people. If you were a UKIP supporter you could always con yourself by thinking they'll all go that way. If there's a 74% turn out in an election, those who couldn't make their mind up or be bothered to vote don't affect the result. If we move out of the EU it's not going to change our import needs is it? So we're still going to trade at a loss to buy those things in? Maybe those people will look at the world bank's list (for Dec 2013) the UK economy is 6th in terms of GDP. Germany and France are larger in Europe and Italy is just behind the UK but Brazil might push us down to 7th in the future. Some of them might say that our economy boomed inside the community and it's better to be inside and influencing decisions than outside and following. Certainly a few of us will remember what it was like outside the community before 1975 (an economic basket case of a country) Then when they look at immigration, they might notice that there are far more immigrants from outside the EU than inside. Or they might ask what happens to the millions of UK people in Europe? If we chuck out the European nationals here, how will we fill those jobs? What about those who have right of residence? Anyway, as you say there's lots for them to think about. What I've seen happening is a campaign of claims from UKIP that are basically untrue and would like people to decide on the basis of accurate information - so for example i think you'll find the daily cost of membership is £55 million, not £72 million as your figure implied. I think we joined in 1973, didn't we? Since joining we have seen unemployment rise from below one million to over three million in the early 80s. What the true level is now - as many don't show on the official records (and the way the figures are calculated has changed numerous times over the years, always giving a lower figure than the actuality) - is a matter of conjecture. Prior to joining the EU, in the 60s, we had as close to full employment as you can get. Basket case of an economy? No. When MacMillan said "you've never had it so good" he was right. As for the jobs you say need filling, there are a lot who need employment. We don't need mass immigration of unskilled labour. As for the trade deficit and Europe, I will point to an industry local to my area massively hit by being in the EU: the Coal mining industry. The Tories closed the mines down - hitting this area incredibly hard (the effects are still felt here) - on the basis of importing cheaper coal from Germany. Is that good for Britain? Heavy unemployment, a trading deficit and British money leaking to a trade competitor - I don't think so. If our economy needs to be tied to others to profit us, why not the likes of America (the power brokers of the present), India and/or China (likely to be the power brokers of the future)? You don't need to look too hard for evidence that the EU is failing: the likes of Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy etc are struggling. It seems that the larger Europe gets, the worse if is for many of the established members. We might benefit from being tied to the highest and strongest EU states but not in its present form, I'd contend. My fear is that, post election, we will see serious economic problems from the austerity cuts, the full effects of which have yet to be seen or felt, a situation exacerbated by being tied to the EU as it is. I hope I'm wrong. Only time will tell Yep, 1972 with Heath and then confirmed by the 75 referendum. Unemployment ran at around 1 million in the early 70s, far from full employment - the jobless figures on election day 1970 were said to be the highest since 1940. The 3 day week was introduced in 1974 at least in part because the NUM was working to rule. Inflation peaked at about 25% in 1975 Britain had to borrow massively from the IMF in 1976 because of the economic mess it had worked itself into in earlier years. As for Thatcher in the 1980s and her battle against the NUM, you'll have to ask a conservative to justify that. How would linking to the US, China or India (assuming they want such a link) be better? If we're importing more than we export it's because we use more things than we make. The balance of trade will still be negative. People seem to want to trade with any area except europe so that they can upset europeans, not for any practical or economic reason. . I'd like to add the main reason for inflation being at 25% was the the 1973 energy crisis where the cost of oil quadrupled and we were 100% net importers of it." regarding this referendum errr in 97 new labour offered a referendum in there manifesto ..they gained power then renegaded on there promise to hold a referendum they added insult to injury by then going on to sign us up to Brussels without any consultation to us the people. When Cameron came to power he also promised a referendum in the tory manifesto to date were still waiting for him to hold this referendu ....surprise surprise its election time and both labour and tories are offering referendums on there manifestos if I believed them again well wunt I be a right old dumb arse. You can kid some of the people some time but you cant kid all the people all the time | |||
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"It is a curiosity to me how the EU supporters are so against a referendum on the issue. Why? Is it because the open discussion prior to a referendum might convince the not inconsiderable number of floaters on the issue that we could be better off withdrawing from the EU than staying in? By my maths, over a quarter must be undecided (if 42% are for staying in and 32% for leaving, surely that leaves 26% undecided?) Perhaps people might think the idea of staying in a club that costs, I believe, 3 million pounds an hour is too expensive? Perhaps people might think that trading at a loss with European neighbours - as we do - is not good for the economy. Perhaps people might think that if (I use the word advisedly) our economy is outstripping other EU countries we might be stronger without them. Perhaps, if we have a bigger economy than any other economy in Europe (save Germany), we should be able to stand on our own two feet (are we not the fourth largest economy in the world?). Perhaps people would query whether a massive influx of unskilled migrant workers into Britain - thereby keeping wages down and creating a deflationary effect in the economy - is a better idea than having points systems whereby only the most skilled workers are allowed in. I wonder. What can be the harm in considering the pros and cons of such an important issue and then having a referendum on it? I can't see it. I do welcome the fact that UKIP's popularity is causing the matter to be thought about and discussed. Would the Tories be talking about a referendum if it weren't for UKIP? Probably not. Will the Tories put the matter to a referendum if voted back in? Probably not. After all, have we not been promised a referendum for years now? I won't vote for UKIP as I think they are too right wing on many fronts - most likely I will vote Labour. But I don't think they are out of step on Europe. As far as a referendum is concerned I'm totally in favour of it. Voters expecting to move to UKIP and get one will be disappointed Your maths are fine apart from a few per cent that would refuse to vote. As with any other poll there are undecided people. If you were a UKIP supporter you could always con yourself by thinking they'll all go that way. If there's a 74% turn out in an election, those who couldn't make their mind up or be bothered to vote don't affect the result. If we move out of the EU it's not going to change our import needs is it? So we're still going to trade at a loss to buy those things in? Maybe those people will look at the world bank's list (for Dec 2013) the UK economy is 6th in terms of GDP. Germany and France are larger in Europe and Italy is just behind the UK but Brazil might push us down to 7th in the future. Some of them might say that our economy boomed inside the community and it's better to be inside and influencing decisions than outside and following. Certainly a few of us will remember what it was like outside the community before 1975 (an economic basket case of a country) Then when they look at immigration, they might notice that there are far more immigrants from outside the EU than inside. Or they might ask what happens to the millions of UK people in Europe? If we chuck out the European nationals here, how will we fill those jobs? What about those who have right of residence? Anyway, as you say there's lots for them to think about. What I've seen happening is a campaign of claims from UKIP that are basically untrue and would like people to decide on the basis of accurate information - so for example i think you'll find the daily cost of membership is £55 million, not £72 million as your figure implied. I think we joined in 1973, didn't we? Since joining we have seen unemployment rise from below one million to over three million in the early 80s. What the true level is now - as many don't show on the official records (and the way the figures are calculated has changed numerous times over the years, always giving a lower figure than the actuality) - is a matter of conjecture. Prior to joining the EU, in the 60s, we had as close to full employment as you can get. Basket case of an economy? No. When MacMillan said "you've never had it so good" he was right. As for the jobs you say need filling, there are a lot who need employment. We don't need mass immigration of unskilled labour. As for the trade deficit and Europe, I will point to an industry local to my area massively hit by being in the EU: the Coal mining industry. The Tories closed the mines down - hitting this area incredibly hard (the effects are still felt here) - on the basis of importing cheaper coal from Germany. Is that good for Britain? Heavy unemployment, a trading deficit and British money leaking to a trade competitor - I don't think so. If our economy needs to be tied to others to profit us, why not the likes of America (the power brokers of the present), India and/or China (likely to be the power brokers of the future)? You don't need to look too hard for evidence that the EU is failing: the likes of Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy etc are struggling. It seems that the larger Europe gets, the worse if is for many of the established members. We might benefit from being tied to the highest and strongest EU states but not in its present form, I'd contend. My fear is that, post election, we will see serious economic problems from the austerity cuts, the full effects of which have yet to be seen or felt, a situation exacerbated by being tied to the EU as it is. I hope I'm wrong. Only time will tell Yep, 1972 with Heath and then confirmed by the 75 referendum. Unemployment ran at around 1 million in the early 70s, far from full employment - the jobless figures on election day 1970 were said to be the highest since 1940. The 3 day week was introduced in 1974 at least in part because the NUM was working to rule. Inflation peaked at about 25% in 1975 Britain had to borrow massively from the IMF in 1976 because of the economic mess it had worked itself into in earlier years. As for Thatcher in the 1980s and her battle against the NUM, you'll have to ask a conservative to justify that. How would linking to the US, China or India (assuming they want such a link) be better? If we're importing more than we export it's because we use more things than we make. The balance of trade will still be negative. People seem to want to trade with any area except europe so that they can upset europeans, not for any practical or economic reason. . I'd like to add the main reason for inflation being at 25% was the the 1973 energy crisis where the cost of oil quadrupled and we were 100% net importers of it. regarding this referendum errr in 97 new labour offered a referendum in there manifesto ..they gained power then renegaded on there promise to hold a referendum they added insult to injury by then going on to sign us up to Brussels without any consultation to us the people. When Cameron came to power he also promised a referendum in the tory manifesto to date were still waiting for him to hold this referendu ....surprise surprise its election time and both labour and tories are offering referendums on there manifestos if I believed them again well wunt I be a right old dumb arse. You can kid some of the people some time but you cant kid all the people all the time " We seem to be jammed up in the 1970s and I've forgotten why - ah no I remember I said the economy was bad then. I doubt that we'll get to the 1990s before the May election. | |||
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"Won't quote the post as it's getting too long! Just to say my understanding is that inflation soared under Heath due to poor governmental policy linking inflation and wages. Once one went up, the other followed. An inflationary policy exacerbated by the huge oil price hike in 1973. The oil price problem was also at heart of the three day week, wasn't it? Anyway, for those pro EU, do you say that the single market is benefitting the likes of Greece, Ireland etc? And how will we be immune from the domino effect that is in place? Further, if our economy is doing so well, why are we not seeing growth? " So it sounds like you agree that the economy was in very poor condition then - just you say it was Heath's poor policies, which I agree to, but there were lots of things wrong. That's certainly my memory. As for the domino effect, which domino has fallen and knocked another over? Why should we need to be immune from a domino effect that isn't even happening? | |||
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"Won't quote the post as it's getting too long! Just to say my understanding is that inflation soared under Heath due to poor governmental policy linking inflation and wages. Once one went up, the other followed. An inflationary policy exacerbated by the huge oil price hike in 1973. The oil price problem was also at heart of the three day week, wasn't it? Anyway, for those pro EU, do you say that the single market is benefitting the likes of Greece, Ireland etc? And how will we be immune from the domino effect that is in place? Further, if our economy is doing so well, why are we not seeing growth? So it sounds like you agree that the economy was in very poor condition then - just you say it was Heath's poor policies, which I agree to, but there were lots of things wrong. That's certainly my memory. As for the domino effect, which domino has fallen and knocked another over? Why should we need to be immune from a domino effect that isn't even happening? " The domino effect that as one EU economy fails, another will follow. That's what I think is happening. You will probably disagree. Anyway, you haven't answered the point about EU failing: would you agree several of the EU countries' economies are failing - and, if so, why? (Given that EU membership equates to prosperity) | |||
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"ime leaning to voting for ukip come May. At least Farage can give a straight answer to a straight question " Really? You obviously didn't see him being interviewed by Channel 4, when he was asked his opinion on the HSBC tax avoidance scandal. He was suddenly cursed with a stutter, for obvious reasons. | |||
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"ime leaning to voting for ukip come May. At least Farage can give a straight answer to a straight question Really? You obviously didn't see him being interviewed by Channel 4, when he was asked his opinion on the HSBC tax avoidance scandal. He was suddenly cursed with a stutter, for obvious reasons." ah well at least he gave a straight if somewhat stuttery answer to a straight question. God forbid the tories or labour leaders should ever be grilled on there personal banking friends on tax avoidance talking of which isn't tony blair high on the tax dodgers list | |||
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"ime leaning to voting for ukip come May. At least Farage can give a straight answer to a straight question Really? You obviously didn't see him being interviewed by Channel 4, when he was asked his opinion on the HSBC tax avoidance scandal. He was suddenly cursed with a stutter, for obvious reasons. ah well at least he gave a straight if somewhat stuttery answer to a straight question. God forbid the tories or labour leaders should ever be grilled on there personal banking friends on tax avoidance talking of which isn't tony blair high on the tax dodgers list "No, he avoided the question completely. Because he is a tax avoider himself. They are all tax dodgers. If you think that rich businessman Nigel Farage is somehow immune, then you should pay closer attention to the actions of your hero. | |||
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"I don't Want to Vote for Anyone.. but someone needs to shut the bloody doors.. Can we not be a bit more like Australia and make it difficult for unskilled beggars rapists an murderers to enter the UK and our streets.. is that too much to want... ". Infamy infamy they've all got it in for them Romanian beggars | |||
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ile try to stick to facts you feel free to stick to whatever it is you want to stick to btw its not actually a crime to avoid paying tax ask any reputable high ranking hsbc banker ....Tony Blair did | |||
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"Won't quote the post as it's getting too long! Just to say my understanding is that inflation soared under Heath due to poor governmental policy linking inflation and wages. Once one went up, the other followed. An inflationary policy exacerbated by the huge oil price hike in 1973. The oil price problem was also at heart of the three day week, wasn't it? Anyway, for those pro EU, do you say that the single market is benefitting the likes of Greece, Ireland etc? And how will we be immune from the domino effect that is in place? Further, if our economy is doing so well, why are we not seeing growth? So it sounds like you agree that the economy was in very poor condition then - just you say it was Heath's poor policies, which I agree to, but there were lots of things wrong. That's certainly my memory. As for the domino effect, which domino has fallen and knocked another over? Why should we need to be immune from a domino effect that isn't even happening? The domino effect that as one EU economy fails, another will follow. That's what I think is happening. You will probably disagree. Anyway, you haven't answered the point about EU failing: would you agree several of the EU countries' economies are failing - and, if so, why? (Given that EU membership equates to prosperity)" Since you could move the goalposts at will, tell me what failing means to you? To me it would mean that in effect a place has fallen back into the dark ages, junk bond ratings for its debt, can't keep the lights on and no prospect of getting out of that situation. None of the EU countries is anywhere near that although at the moment the Greek economy is prevented from failing because the rest of Europe is propping it up. Ireland would claim to have a higher GDP per person than the UK, France, Germany. It's debt is around 127% of GDP (as opposed to Greece in the 170s or the UK in the 90s), unemployment at about 11% compared to 5 to 6% in the UK and Germany, the economy was growing in 2013 (.2%) and 2014 (7% according to their government) | |||
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"Oh that fickle fiend the sword of Damocles dangles perilously over our heads as we type.... As the who said... Who's next!" Are you sure you're not smoking that tofu? | |||
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"Pops in and drops 50p into the meter, paying fab's bandwidth charges. " Thank God. I thought it was my eyesight failing. | |||
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"Oh that fickle fiend the sword of Damocles dangles perilously over our heads as we type.... As the who said... Who's next! Are you sure you're not smoking that tofu?" . I shouldn't drink red wine on a Saturday but then I am forced to endure the voice and casualty | |||
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"Oh that fickle fiend the sword of Damocles dangles perilously over our heads as we type.... As the who said... Who's next! Are you sure you're not smoking that tofu?. I shouldn't drink red wine on a Saturday but then I am forced to endure the voice and casualty "Write to Amnesty. That's a cruel and unusual punishment. | |||
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"Oh that fickle fiend the sword of Damocles dangles perilously over our heads as we type.... As the who said... Who's next! Are you sure you're not smoking that tofu?. I shouldn't drink red wine on a Saturday but then I am forced to endure the voice and casualty "I am absolutey certain that there are two sides to every story. God knows what some wives have to endure. | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? Recently on a thread on here about cutting foreign aid, i said a yougov poll a few months ago showed 67% in favour of cutting foreign aid. The same pro EU posters on this thread said "yes but it depends on how the question is worded to obtain the required answer" lol. They did didn't they? I did point out that that the poll actually said 61% - you'd read the wrong result (for the previous poll). I also provided several examples of yougov polls over 70% in favour of foreign aid if asked a more specific question. In this poll they asked two questions. The straight in out one that showed an increasing lead for the 'in' voters and a more speculative question about Cameron renogotiating which brought a huge number tory voters back into the in vote and an overall majority for the 'in' vote. Anyway, not to fret: polls can always be wrong on the day of the real election/referendum. Mind you there were other polls in the last week saying that the number of voters who thought UKIP had a long term future is getting smaller and smaller" Ok while we are talking polls, yougov polls in the run up to the election showed UKIP gaining 1% this week now upto 15%, with Labour and the tories around 33% each, lib dems on 7% and the greens on 8%. A survation poll showed (as reported in the guardian) a couple of days ago that Nigel Farage has an 11% lead for winning his seat in South Thanet at the general election. | |||
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"Oh that fickle fiend the sword of Damocles dangles perilously over our heads as we type.... As the who said... Who's next! Are you sure you're not smoking that tofu?. I shouldn't drink red wine on a Saturday but then I am forced to endure the voice and casualty
I am absolutey certain that there are two sides to every story. God knows what some wives have to endure. ". I have a habit of sliding into the lounge singing loudly.... One day more! Another day, another destiny. This never ending road to Calvary, These men who seem to know my crime Will surely come a second time. One day more! | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? Recently on a thread on here about cutting foreign aid, i said a yougov poll a few months ago showed 67% in favour of cutting foreign aid. The same pro EU posters on this thread said "yes but it depends on how the question is worded to obtain the required answer" lol. They did didn't they? I did point out that that the poll actually said 61% - you'd read the wrong result (for the previous poll). I also provided several examples of yougov polls over 70% in favour of foreign aid if asked a more specific question. In this poll they asked two questions. The straight in out one that showed an increasing lead for the 'in' voters and a more speculative question about Cameron renogotiating which brought a huge number tory voters back into the in vote and an overall majority for the 'in' vote. Anyway, not to fret: polls can always be wrong on the day of the real election/referendum. Mind you there were other polls in the last week saying that the number of voters who thought UKIP had a long term future is getting smaller and smaller Ok while we are talking polls, yougov polls in the run up to the election showed UKIP gaining 1% this week now upto 15%, with Labour and the tories around 33% each, lib dems on 7% and the greens on 8%. A survation poll showed (as reported in the guardian) a couple of days ago that Nigel Farage has an 11% lead for winning his seat in South Thanet at the general election. " .. Yaaaaaaaaaay were not last... In your face you fucking liberal twats  | |||
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"Won't quote the post as it's getting too long! Just to say my understanding is that inflation soared under Heath due to poor governmental policy linking inflation and wages. Once one went up, the other followed. An inflationary policy exacerbated by the huge oil price hike in 1973. The oil price problem was also at heart of the three day week, wasn't it? Anyway, for those pro EU, do you say that the single market is benefitting the likes of Greece, Ireland etc? And how will we be immune from the domino effect that is in place? Further, if our economy is doing so well, why are we not seeing growth? So it sounds like you agree that the economy was in very poor condition then - just you say it was Heath's poor policies, which I agree to, but there were lots of things wrong. That's certainly my memory. As for the domino effect, which domino has fallen and knocked another over? Why should we need to be immune from a domino effect that isn't even happening? The domino effect that as one EU economy fails, another will follow. That's what I think is happening. You will probably disagree. Anyway, you haven't answered the point about EU failing: would you agree several of the EU countries' economies are failing - and, if so, why? (Given that EU membership equates to prosperity) Since you could move the goalposts at will, tell me what failing means to you? To me it would mean that in effect a place has fallen back into the dark ages, junk bond ratings for its debt, can't keep the lights on and no prospect of getting out of that situation. None of the EU countries is anywhere near that although at the moment the Greek economy is prevented from failing because the rest of Europe is propping it up. Ireland would claim to have a higher GDP per person than the UK, France, Germany. It's debt is around 127% of GDP (as opposed to Greece in the 170s or the UK in the 90s), unemployment at about 11% compared to 5 to 6% in the UK and Germany, the economy was growing in 2013 (.2%) and 2014 (7% according to their government) " Try explaining that to the greek guy who was on the news (or newsnight, i forget which programme), who had to turn his mothers life support machine off because he could no longer afford the electricity/fuel bills. And just last night, again protestors clashing with police on the streets of Athens throwing petrol bombs and bricks, not sure about anyone else but they are signs of a country/economy that is failing for sure. | |||
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"Won't quote the post as it's getting too long! Just to say my understanding is that inflation soared under Heath due to poor governmental policy linking inflation and wages. Once one went up, the other followed. An inflationary policy exacerbated by the huge oil price hike in 1973. The oil price problem was also at heart of the three day week, wasn't it? Anyway, for those pro EU, do you say that the single market is benefitting the likes of Greece, Ireland etc? And how will we be immune from the domino effect that is in place? Further, if our economy is doing so well, why are we not seeing growth? So it sounds like you agree that the economy was in very poor condition then - just you say it was Heath's poor policies, which I agree to, but there were lots of things wrong. That's certainly my memory. As for the domino effect, which domino has fallen and knocked another over? Why should we need to be immune from a domino effect that isn't even happening? The domino effect that as one EU economy fails, another will follow. That's what I think is happening. You will probably disagree. Anyway, you haven't answered the point about EU failing: would you agree several of the EU countries' economies are failing - and, if so, why? (Given that EU membership equates to prosperity) Since you could move the goalposts at will, tell me what failing means to you? To me it would mean that in effect a place has fallen back into the dark ages, junk bond ratings for its debt, can't keep the lights on and no prospect of getting out of that situation. None of the EU countries is anywhere near that although at the moment the Greek economy is prevented from failing because the rest of Europe is propping it up. Ireland would claim to have a higher GDP per person than the UK, France, Germany. It's debt is around 127% of GDP (as opposed to Greece in the 170s or the UK in the 90s), unemployment at about 11% compared to 5 to 6% in the UK and Germany, the economy was growing in 2013 (.2%) and 2014 (7% according to their government) Try explaining that to the greek guy who was on the news (or newsnight, i forget which programme), who had to turn his mothers life support machine off because he could no longer afford the electricity/fuel bills. And just last night, again protestors clashing with police on the streets of Athens throwing petrol bombs and bricks, not sure about anyone else but they are signs of a country/economy that is failing for sure. " riots on the streets sounds a bit like round here not so long ago but repect to the greeks there the Spartans of how to throw a good riot | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? Recently on a thread on here about cutting foreign aid, i said a yougov poll a few months ago showed 67% in favour of cutting foreign aid. The same pro EU posters on this thread said "yes but it depends on how the question is worded to obtain the required answer" lol. They did didn't they? I did point out that that the poll actually said 61% - you'd read the wrong result (for the previous poll). I also provided several examples of yougov polls over 70% in favour of foreign aid if asked a more specific question. In this poll they asked two questions. The straight in out one that showed an increasing lead for the 'in' voters and a more speculative question about Cameron renogotiating which brought a huge number tory voters back into the in vote and an overall majority for the 'in' vote. Anyway, not to fret: polls can always be wrong on the day of the real election/referendum. Mind you there were other polls in the last week saying that the number of voters who thought UKIP had a long term future is getting smaller and smaller Ok while we are talking polls, yougov polls in the run up to the election showed UKIP gaining 1% this week now upto 15%, with Labour and the tories around 33% each, lib dems on 7% and the greens on 8%. A survation poll showed (as reported in the guardian) a couple of days ago that Nigel Farage has an 11% lead for winning his seat in South Thanet at the general election. " The yougov poll asking for top line voting intentions on 25/26 Feb says: con 33% lab 34% lib dem 8% UKIP 13% Green 6% SNP/PCY 4%, so UKIP either lost 2% after the poll you read about, or they put 2% on on Friday. Unfortunately you don't give a date for the poll so it's hard to tell whether or not we should be rejoicing or sad. I see the pub landlord is on 1.4% in Thanet. We can only hope for a late swing | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? Recently on a thread on here about cutting foreign aid, i said a yougov poll a few months ago showed 67% in favour of cutting foreign aid. The same pro EU posters on this thread said "yes but it depends on how the question is worded to obtain the required answer" lol. They did didn't they? I did point out that that the poll actually said 61% - you'd read the wrong result (for the previous poll). I also provided several examples of yougov polls over 70% in favour of foreign aid if asked a more specific question. In this poll they asked two questions. The straight in out one that showed an increasing lead for the 'in' voters and a more speculative question about Cameron renogotiating which brought a huge number tory voters back into the in vote and an overall majority for the 'in' vote. Anyway, not to fret: polls can always be wrong on the day of the real election/referendum. Mind you there were other polls in the last week saying that the number of voters who thought UKIP had a long term future is getting smaller and smaller Ok while we are talking polls, yougov polls in the run up to the election showed UKIP gaining 1% this week now upto 15%, with Labour and the tories around 33% each, lib dems on 7% and the greens on 8%. A survation poll showed (as reported in the guardian) a couple of days ago that Nigel Farage has an 11% lead for winning his seat in South Thanet at the general election. The yougov poll asking for top line voting intentions on 25/26 Feb says: con 33% lab 34% lib dem 8% UKIP 13% Green 6% SNP/PCY 4%, so UKIP either lost 2% after the poll you read about, or they put 2% on on Friday. Unfortunately you don't give a date for the poll so it's hard to tell whether or not we should be rejoicing or sad. I see the pub landlord is on 1.4% in Thanet. We can only hope for a late swing "The poll i looked at was for 24th/25th Feb The Sun/yougov poll showed..... Con 33%, Lab 33%, UKIP 15%, Lib dems 8%, greens 6%, (it was the lib dem and green result i got the wrong way round). Besides these results fluctuate up and down on a daily basis, but by and large they remain in the same area for each party. | |||
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"Won't quote the post as it's getting too long! Just to say my understanding is that inflation soared under Heath due to poor governmental policy linking inflation and wages. Once one went up, the other followed. An inflationary policy exacerbated by the huge oil price hike in 1973. The oil price problem was also at heart of the three day week, wasn't it? Anyway, for those pro EU, do you say that the single market is benefitting the likes of Greece, Ireland etc? And how will we be immune from the domino effect that is in place? Further, if our economy is doing so well, why are we not seeing growth? So it sounds like you agree that the economy was in very poor condition then - just you say it was Heath's poor policies, which I agree to, but there were lots of things wrong. That's certainly my memory. As for the domino effect, which domino has fallen and knocked another over? Why should we need to be immune from a domino effect that isn't even happening? The domino effect that as one EU economy fails, another will follow. That's what I think is happening. You will probably disagree. Anyway, you haven't answered the point about EU failing: would you agree several of the EU countries' economies are failing - and, if so, why? (Given that EU membership equates to prosperity) Since you could move the goalposts at will, tell me what failing means to you? To me it would mean that in effect a place has fallen back into the dark ages, junk bond ratings for its debt, can't keep the lights on and no prospect of getting out of that situation. None of the EU countries is anywhere near that although at the moment the Greek economy is prevented from failing because the rest of Europe is propping it up. Ireland would claim to have a higher GDP per person than the UK, France, Germany. It's debt is around 127% of GDP (as opposed to Greece in the 170s or the UK in the 90s), unemployment at about 11% compared to 5 to 6% in the UK and Germany, the economy was growing in 2013 (.2%) and 2014 (7% according to their government) Try explaining that to the greek guy who was on the news (or newsnight, i forget which programme), who had to turn his mothers life support machine off because he could no longer afford the electricity/fuel bills. And just last night, again protestors clashing with police on the streets of Athens throwing petrol bombs and bricks, not sure about anyone else but they are signs of a country/economy that is failing for sure. " How do you suddenly get into supporting the Greeks and worrying about individuals? Your party wants out of this EU deal altogether and don't give a damn about them. In the EU money flows from the richer countries to the poorer, which is why the UK pays a net amount out and Greece is a net recipient of funding. That is one of the things that you are totally against as a party. UKIP crocodile tears about someone's granny are totally hypocritical. As for riots, we've had a few here ourselves over the years. Have we collapsed yet as a country? According to the report I've just read 450 far left and anarchist demonstrators were rioting against their own government. Not very convincing as riots go is it? Not exactly the masses rising up against their recently elected government. | |||
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" Ever considered how very carefully worded many poll questions are? Worded such as to obtain the required answer. Or indeed the pollster gaining any answer to fill that days very structered quota? Recently on a thread on here about cutting foreign aid, i said a yougov poll a few months ago showed 67% in favour of cutting foreign aid. The same pro EU posters on this thread said "yes but it depends on how the question is worded to obtain the required answer" lol. They did didn't they? I did point out that that the poll actually said 61% - you'd read the wrong result (for the previous poll). I also provided several examples of yougov polls over 70% in favour of foreign aid if asked a more specific question. In this poll they asked two questions. The straight in out one that showed an increasing lead for the 'in' voters and a more speculative question about Cameron renogotiating which brought a huge number tory voters back into the in vote and an overall majority for the 'in' vote. Anyway, not to fret: polls can always be wrong on the day of the real election/referendum. Mind you there were other polls in the last week saying that the number of voters who thought UKIP had a long term future is getting smaller and smaller Ok while we are talking polls, yougov polls in the run up to the election showed UKIP gaining 1% this week now upto 15%, with Labour and the tories around 33% each, lib dems on 7% and the greens on 8%. A survation poll showed (as reported in the guardian) a couple of days ago that Nigel Farage has an 11% lead for winning his seat in South Thanet at the general election. The yougov poll asking for top line voting intentions on 25/26 Feb says: con 33% lab 34% lib dem 8% UKIP 13% Green 6% SNP/PCY 4%, so UKIP either lost 2% after the poll you read about, or they put 2% on on Friday. Unfortunately you don't give a date for the poll so it's hard to tell whether or not we should be rejoicing or sad. I see the pub landlord is on 1.4% in Thanet. We can only hope for a late swing
The poll i looked at was for 24th/25th Feb The Sun/yougov poll showed..... Con 33%, Lab 33%, UKIP 15%, Lib dems 8%, greens 6%, (it was the lib dem and green result i got the wrong way round). Besides these results fluctuate up and down on a daily basis, but by and large they remain in the same area for each party. "Ah well, the 1% up tick had disappeared by the end of the week then. Only a slightly muted celebration then? I agree with that they fluctuate from day to day. If I remember rightly on this poll you'd have to see a change of more than 3% for it to be considered significant. | |||
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"Won't quote the post as it's getting too long! Just to say my understanding is that inflation soared under Heath due to poor governmental policy linking inflation and wages. Once one went up, the other followed. An inflationary policy exacerbated by the huge oil price hike in 1973. The oil price problem was also at heart of the three day week, wasn't it? Anyway, for those pro EU, do you say that the single market is benefitting the likes of Greece, Ireland etc? And how will we be immune from the domino effect that is in place? Further, if our economy is doing so well, why are we not seeing growth? So it sounds like you agree that the economy was in very poor condition then - just you say it was Heath's poor policies, which I agree to, but there were lots of things wrong. That's certainly my memory. As for the domino effect, which domino has fallen and knocked another over? Why should we need to be immune from a domino effect that isn't even happening? The domino effect that as one EU economy fails, another will follow. That's what I think is happening. You will probably disagree. Anyway, you haven't answered the point about EU failing: would you agree several of the EU countries' economies are failing - and, if so, why? (Given that EU membership equates to prosperity) Since you could move the goalposts at will, tell me what failing means to you? To me it would mean that in effect a place has fallen back into the dark ages, junk bond ratings for its debt, can't keep the lights on and no prospect of getting out of that situation. None of the EU countries is anywhere near that although at the moment the Greek economy is prevented from failing because the rest of Europe is propping it up. Ireland would claim to have a higher GDP per person than the UK, France, Germany. It's debt is around 127% of GDP (as opposed to Greece in the 170s or the UK in the 90s), unemployment at about 11% compared to 5 to 6% in the UK and Germany, the economy was growing in 2013 (.2%) and 2014 (7% according to their government) Try explaining that to the greek guy who was on the news (or newsnight, i forget which programme), who had to turn his mothers life support machine off because he could no longer afford the electricity/fuel bills. And just last night, again protestors clashing with police on the streets of Athens throwing petrol bombs and bricks, not sure about anyone else but they are signs of a country/economy that is failing for sure. How do you suddenly get into supporting the Greeks and worrying about individuals? Your party wants out of this EU deal altogether and don't give a damn about them. In the EU money flows from the richer countries to the poorer, which is why the UK pays a net amount out and Greece is a net recipient of funding. That is one of the things that you are totally against as a party. UKIP crocodile tears about someone's granny are totally hypocritical. As for riots, we've had a few here ourselves over the years. Have we collapsed yet as a country? According to the report I've just read 450 far left and anarchist demonstrators were rioting against their own government. Not very convincing as riots go is it? Not exactly the masses rising up against their recently elected government. " Money flows from the richer countries to the poor in the EU, thats a laugh.
So at the same time the EU hit us for a bill of over £2 billion a few months ago, and Germany and France got money back, they also asked the greeks to pay more, (around 700 million). How does that work with your theory of money flowing from rich to the poor because from where i'm standing it looks like the other way round.
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" Put simply, i would rather vote for an unknown UKIP candidate and unkown policies than continuing to vote for the likes of Cameron, Clegg and Millband and 600+ others from the same ilk, Not to mentioin the massive danage caused to the country by the likes of Blair and Brown. At least such as Benn, Skinner, Thatcher and even Galloway had/have their principles. True. Who's principles have the UKIP refugees from the tory party got?" well ide say ukip have the principles of the british people at heart for free trade in a free democratic Europe where we don't have to pay millions to Brussels in exchange for a pittance wheres the business sense in that ? why should we be held accountable by Brussels for subsidising French farmers or Spanish fishermen? Do there respective governments subsidise our farmers and fishermen ...do they fook Always the same scenario Brussels get greedier and greedier and its always us they demand more money from we give them millions and get back jack shit. Iceland told these pricks to fuck off and ever since the fat cat europratts accepted icelands finger icelands economy has gone from strength to strength so eat my shit Brussels you faceless bunch of gangster in suit mother fucking leeches ...feel betta now I got that of my chest
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.
There's some proper Nazis around in Europe and there getting closer to the finishing line.
The problem comes that if/ when the Greeks get there debt written off by Germany.... The whole raft of other countries are in the wings to say, hey we want are debt written off too...
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"Won't quote the post as it's getting too long! Just to say my understanding is that inflation soared under Heath due to poor governmental policy linking inflation and wages. Once one went up, the other followed. An inflationary policy exacerbated by the huge oil price hike in 1973. The oil price problem was also at heart of the three day week, wasn't it? Anyway, for those pro EU, do you say that the single market is benefitting the likes of Greece, Ireland etc? And how will we be immune from the domino effect that is in place? Further, if our economy is doing so well, why are we not seeing growth? So it sounds like you agree that the economy was in very poor condition then - just you say it was Heath's poor policies, which I agree to, but there were lots of things wrong. That's certainly my memory. As for the domino effect, which domino has fallen and knocked another over? Why should we need to be immune from a domino effect that isn't even happening? The domino effect that as one EU economy fails, another will follow. That's what I think is happening. You will probably disagree. Anyway, you haven't answered the point about EU failing: would you agree several of the EU countries' economies are failing - and, if so, why? (Given that EU membership equates to prosperity) Since you could move the goalposts at will, tell me what failing means to you? To me it would mean that in effect a place has fallen back into the dark ages, junk bond ratings for its debt, can't keep the lights on and no prospect of getting out of that situation. None of the EU countries is anywhere near that although at the moment the Greek economy is prevented from failing because the rest of Europe is propping it up. Ireland would claim to have a higher GDP per person than the UK, France, Germany. It's debt is around 127% of GDP (as opposed to Greece in the 170s or the UK in the 90s), unemployment at about 11% compared to 5 to 6% in the UK and Germany, the economy was growing in 2013 (.2%) and 2014 (7% according to their government) Try explaining that to the greek guy who was on the news (or newsnight, i forget which programme), who had to turn his mothers life support machine off because he could no longer afford the electricity/fuel bills. And just last night, again protestors clashing with police on the streets of Athens throwing petrol bombs and bricks, not sure about anyone else but they are signs of a country/economy that is failing for sure. How do you suddenly get into supporting the Greeks and worrying about individuals? Your party wants out of this EU deal altogether and don't give a damn about them. In the EU money flows from the richer countries to the poorer, which is why the UK pays a net amount out and Greece is a net recipient of funding. That is one of the things that you are totally against as a party. UKIP crocodile tears about someone's granny are totally hypocritical. As for riots, we've had a few here ourselves over the years. Have we collapsed yet as a country? According to the report I've just read 450 far left and anarchist demonstrators were rioting against their own government. Not very convincing as riots go is it? Not exactly the masses rising up against their recently elected government. Money flows from the richer countries to the poor in the EU, thats a laugh.
So at the same time the EU hit us for a bill of over £2 billion a few months ago, and Germany and France got money back, they also asked the greeks to pay more, (around 700 million). How does that work with your theory of money flowing from rich to the poor because from where i'm standing it looks like the other way round.
"The net payments to Greece in billions of Euros over the last 10 years are: 4.0 3.9 2.9 1.9 4.9 5.0 4.5 3.3 3.5 2.9 That's a total of 36.8 billion euros net payment to Greece. It really is time for you to start looking up your own numbers, I'm not always going to be around to do it for you | |||
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" Put simply, i would rather vote for an unknown UKIP candidate and unkown policies than continuing to vote for the likes of Cameron, Clegg and Millband and 600+ others from the same ilk, Not to mentioin the massive danage caused to the country by the likes of Blair and Brown. At least such as Benn, Skinner, Thatcher and even Galloway had/have their principles. True. Who's principles have the UKIP refugees from the tory party got? well ide say ukip have the principles of the british people at heart for free trade in a free democratic Europe where we don't have to pay millions to Brussels in exchange for a pittance wheres the business sense in that ? why should we be held accountable by Brussels for subsidising French farmers or Spanish fishermen? Do there respective governments subsidise our farmers and fishermen ...do they fook Always the same scenario Brussels get greedier and greedier and its always us they demand more money from we give them millions and get back jack shit. Iceland told these pricks to fuck off and ever since the fat cat europratts accepted icelands finger icelands economy has gone from strength to strength so eat my shit Brussels you faceless bunch of gangster in suit mother fucking leeches ...feel betta now I got that of my chest
"errr yes, since you asked... the bulk of the payment of our contributions back to us goes to our farmers. Yeah Iceland really shook Brussels up with that finger. With its economy about the size of Croydon the whole of Europe was quaking. | |||
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"You won't need a referendum in three years time anyhow, the whole things collapsing. Look Greece aren't going to pay that money back! They can't. and the austerity isn't going to last either, it's too punitive the whole country is furious. The fact of the matter is this Greek government are either going to get the debt wiped by Germany or is going to be out on its ear in two months.... And who finished just behind them in the Greek elections , golden dawn, now for all those people writing about farage being a Nazi.... Listen up I will say this only once .
There's some proper Nazis around in Europe and there getting closer to the finishing line.
The problem comes that if/ when the Greeks get there debt written off by Germany.... The whole raft of other countries are in the wings to say, hey we want are debt written off too...
"I agree, and the pro-eu brigade say well the EU keeps peace in europe, well in my opinion the very existence of the EU is making war in europe a more likely prospect in the future if things continue as they are. | |||
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"But there being asked to pay 180 billion in interest?" Try to get the buckets of money right. They get asked to pay interest on the loans to them, not the annual payments and grants. | |||
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"You won't need a referendum in three years time anyhow, the whole things collapsing. Look Greece aren't going to pay that money back! They can't. and the austerity isn't going to last either, it's too punitive the whole country is furious. The fact of the matter is this Greek government are either going to get the debt wiped by Germany or is going to be out on its ear in two months.... And who finished just behind them in the Greek elections , golden dawn, now for all those people writing about farage being a Nazi.... Listen up I will say this only once .
There's some proper Nazis around in Europe and there getting closer to the finishing line.
The problem comes that if/ when the Greeks get there debt written off by Germany.... The whole raft of other countries are in the wings to say, hey we want are debt written off too...
"before Brussels came along Greece Portugal Ireland Italy were doin ok they signed up to brusslls as did we only difference being we dint sign away our currency in exchange for the euro that's the only reason were in a slightly better financial situation than Greece, Greece are skint brussells know that so what they do Is offer to provide them with more cash knowing full well they haven't a cat in hells chance of being able to pay the cash back so then they own Greece, logically brussells would offer Greece the money and maybe some sort of training in doing business in import and export so they get a chnce of getting back the money they borrowed Greece ...but no all they offer Greece is more money knowing full well they could never pay it back ..so to me it seems they don't wanna help Greece they just want to own them for there own agenda Brussels actually told Greece when and when not they could hold elections ? who the fuck are Brussels to tell a country when and when they can or cannot hold elections ? how would we feel come this may if the elections get cancelled ..because Brussels say so. | |||
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"But there being asked to pay 180 billion in interest?" plus the 700 million that was asked of them in the recalculation last October, when Germany and France got a rebate. | |||
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"You won't need a referendum in three years time anyhow, the whole things collapsing. Look Greece aren't going to pay that money back! They can't. and the austerity isn't going to last either, it's too punitive the whole country is furious. The fact of the matter is this Greek government are either going to get the debt wiped by Germany or is going to be out on its ear in two months.... And who finished just behind them in the Greek elections , golden dawn, now for all those people writing about farage being a Nazi.... Listen up I will say this only once .
There's some proper Nazis around in Europe and there getting closer to the finishing line.
The problem comes that if/ when the Greeks get there debt written off by Germany.... The whole raft of other countries are in the wings to say, hey we want are debt written off too...
I agree, and the pro-eu brigade say well the EU keeps peace in europe, well in my opinion the very existence of the EU is making war in europe a more likely prospect in the future if things continue as they are. ". Germany only have there selves to blame they brought all these counties in helping to depress the euro for their exports and pushing there might on the world stage, as not they practically run 8 countries instead of just their own, look how there battling with Russia now over the Ukraine. I liked the EU and I was even pro euro at the beginning but as with everything in politics, it all gets corrupted in then end | |||
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"You won't need a referendum in three years time anyhow, the whole things collapsing. Look Greece aren't going to pay that money back! They can't. and the austerity isn't going to last either, it's too punitive the whole country is furious. The fact of the matter is this Greek government are either going to get the debt wiped by Germany or is going to be out on its ear in two months.... And who finished just behind them in the Greek elections , golden dawn, now for all those people writing about farage being a Nazi.... Listen up I will say this only once .
There's some proper Nazis around in Europe and there getting closer to the finishing line.
The problem comes that if/ when the Greeks get there debt written off by Germany.... The whole raft of other countries are in the wings to say, hey we want are debt written off too...
I agree, and the pro-eu brigade say well the EU keeps peace in europe, well in my opinion the very existence of the EU is making war in europe a more likely prospect in the future if things continue as they are. "That is an opinion and I'm sure some people will be pleased to agree with you. It's not based on anything factual though, is it? You see the EU has been around for a while without collapsing or being the reason for a war. What is it about the very existence of the EU that makes you think it will be the cause of a war? | |||
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"But there being asked to pay 180 billion in interest? plus the 700 million that was asked of them in the recalculation last October, when Germany and France got a rebate. " Hey don't let the truth get in the way. I gave you the numbers above. They get billions each year. Go check it for yourself. For once. | |||
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"But there being asked to pay 180 billion in interest? Try to get the buckets of money right. They get asked to pay interest on the loans to them, not the annual payments and grants." but the moneys come straight from the EU,ecb. Don't get me wrong Germany have more to lose than Greece on this and if I were the Greek government I'd tell the Germans to fuck off and let the euro implode.... Then ask about renegotiating | |||
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"You won't need a referendum in three years time anyhow, the whole things collapsing. Look Greece aren't going to pay that money back! They can't. and the austerity isn't going to last either, it's too punitive the whole country is furious. The fact of the matter is this Greek government are either going to get the debt wiped by Germany or is going to be out on its ear in two months.... And who finished just behind them in the Greek elections , golden dawn, now for all those people writing about farage being a Nazi.... Listen up I will say this only once .
There's some proper Nazis around in Europe and there getting closer to the finishing line.
The problem comes that if/ when the Greeks get there debt written off by Germany.... The whole raft of other countries are in the wings to say, hey we want are debt written off too...
I agree, and the pro-eu brigade say well the EU keeps peace in europe, well in my opinion the very existence of the EU is making war in europe a more likely prospect in the future if things continue as they are.
That is an opinion and I'm sure some people will be pleased to agree with you. It's not based on anything factual though, is it? You see the EU has been around for a while without collapsing or being the reason for a war. What is it about the very existence of the EU that makes you think it will be the cause of a war?"and everything you say is based on fact is it | |||
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"But there being asked to pay 180 billion in interest? Try to get the buckets of money right. They get asked to pay interest on the loans to them, not the annual payments and grants.but the moneys come straight from the EU,ecb. Don't get me wrong Germany have more to lose than Greece on this and if I were the Greek government I'd tell the Germans to fuck off and let the euro implode.... Then ask about renegotiating "Your pessimism knows no bounds. The money you're talking about is interest on loans made by various organisations to bail out the Greek government. The numbers I'm talking about are the net payments to Greece each year which it gets anyway. You know how UKIP bangs on about us paying a net amount of £55 million into the EU each day - well some of that money goes to Greece and they don't pay interest on it because they are net recipients to the tune of about 4 billion euros a year.. | |||
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"You won't need a referendum in three years time anyhow, the whole things collapsing. Look Greece aren't going to pay that money back! They can't. and the austerity isn't going to last either, it's too punitive the whole country is furious. The fact of the matter is this Greek government are either going to get the debt wiped by Germany or is going to be out on its ear in two months.... And who finished just behind them in the Greek elections , golden dawn, now for all those people writing about farage being a Nazi.... Listen up I will say this only once .
There's some proper Nazis around in Europe and there getting closer to the finishing line.
The problem comes that if/ when the Greeks get there debt written off by Germany.... The whole raft of other countries are in the wings to say, hey we want are debt written off too...
I agree, and the pro-eu brigade say well the EU keeps peace in europe, well in my opinion the very existence of the EU is making war in europe a more likely prospect in the future if things continue as they are.
That is an opinion and I'm sure some people will be pleased to agree with you. It's not based on anything factual though, is it? You see the EU has been around for a while without collapsing or being the reason for a war. What is it about the very existence of the EU that makes you think it will be the cause of a war?
and everything you say is based on fact is it "I've certainly tried to give you the facts and you can find them all in public sources. Unlike UKIP euro nonsense that seems to get made up as head office goes along | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You won't need a referendum in three years time anyhow, the whole things collapsing. Look Greece aren't going to pay that money back! They can't. and the austerity isn't going to last either, it's too punitive the whole country is furious. The fact of the matter is this Greek government are either going to get the debt wiped by Germany or is going to be out on its ear in two months.... And who finished just behind them in the Greek elections , golden dawn, now for all those people writing about farage being a Nazi.... Listen up I will say this only once .
There's some proper Nazis around in Europe and there getting closer to the finishing line.
The problem comes that if/ when the Greeks get there debt written off by Germany.... The whole raft of other countries are in the wings to say, hey we want are debt written off too...
I agree, and the pro-eu brigade say well the EU keeps peace in europe, well in my opinion the very existence of the EU is making war in europe a more likely prospect in the future if things continue as they are.
That is an opinion and I'm sure some people will be pleased to agree with you. It's not based on anything factual though, is it? You see the EU has been around for a while without collapsing or being the reason for a war. What is it about the very existence of the EU that makes you think it will be the cause of a war?". Not fact but based on history... End of the first world war Germany was forced to sign the Versaille treaty which sanctioned Germany so hard monetarily that the austerity imposed on it saw the rise of Nazis.... It's a bit ironic that chancellor Merkel is exactly the same in Greece | |||
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"But there being asked to pay 180 billion in interest? Try to get the buckets of money right. They get asked to pay interest on the loans to them, not the annual payments and grants.but the moneys come straight from the EU,ecb. Don't get me wrong Germany have more to lose than Greece on this and if I were the Greek government I'd tell the Germans to fuck off and let the euro implode.... Then ask about renegotiating
Your pessimism knows no bounds.
The money you're talking about is interest on loans made by various organisations to bail out the Greek government.
The numbers I'm talking about are the net payments to Greece each year which it gets anyway. You know how UKIP bangs on about us paying a net amount of £55 million into the EU each day - well some of that money goes to Greece and they don't pay interest on it because they are net recipients to the tune of about 4 billion euros a year.."why is that pessimistic in your view ? sounds like a good plan to me fook the Brussels cunts where it hurts most ..in there own wallets make a change from them raping our pockets | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You won't need a referendum in three years time anyhow, the whole things collapsing. Look Greece aren't going to pay that money back! They can't. and the austerity isn't going to last either, it's too punitive the whole country is furious. The fact of the matter is this Greek government are either going to get the debt wiped by Germany or is going to be out on its ear in two months.... And who finished just behind them in the Greek elections , golden dawn, now for all those people writing about farage being a Nazi.... Listen up I will say this only once .
There's some proper Nazis around in Europe and there getting closer to the finishing line.
The problem comes that if/ when the Greeks get there debt written off by Germany.... The whole raft of other countries are in the wings to say, hey we want are debt written off too...
I agree, and the pro-eu brigade say well the EU keeps peace in europe, well in my opinion the very existence of the EU is making war in europe a more likely prospect in the future if things continue as they are.
That is an opinion and I'm sure some people will be pleased to agree with you. It's not based on anything factual though, is it? You see the EU has been around for a while without collapsing or being the reason for a war. What is it about the very existence of the EU that makes you think it will be the cause of a war?"The situation in Ukraine that is happening right now as we speak is partly down to the EU. The rise of Front national in France, as sexy-bum said in a previous post, the rise of neo nazis such as golden dawn in greece, (if syriza get kicked out they could be next to get elected there?). There are worrying signs popping up here and there all over the EU, its plain to see for everyone. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You won't need a referendum in three years time anyhow, the whole things collapsing. Look Greece aren't going to pay that money back! They can't. and the austerity isn't going to last either, it's too punitive the whole country is furious. The fact of the matter is this Greek government are either going to get the debt wiped by Germany or is going to be out on its ear in two months.... And who finished just behind them in the Greek elections , golden dawn, now for all those people writing about farage being a Nazi.... Listen up I will say this only once .
There's some proper Nazis around in Europe and there getting closer to the finishing line.
The problem comes that if/ when the Greeks get there debt written off by Germany.... The whole raft of other countries are in the wings to say, hey we want are debt written off too...
I agree, and the pro-eu brigade say well the EU keeps peace in europe, well in my opinion the very existence of the EU is making war in europe a more likely prospect in the future if things continue as they are.
That is an opinion and I'm sure some people will be pleased to agree with you. It's not based on anything factual though, is it? You see the EU has been around for a while without collapsing or being the reason for a war. What is it about the very existence of the EU that makes you think it will be the cause of a war?
and everything you say is based on fact is it
I've certainly tried to give you the facts and you can find them all in public sources. Unlike UKIP euro nonsense that seems to get made up as head office goes along "that was a euro party political broadcast by Niel Kinnock | |||
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"But there being asked to pay 180 billion in interest? Try to get the buckets of money right. They get asked to pay interest on the loans to them, not the annual payments and grants.but the moneys come straight from the EU,ecb. Don't get me wrong Germany have more to lose than Greece on this and if I were the Greek government I'd tell the Germans to fuck off and let the euro implode.... Then ask about renegotiating
Your pessimism knows no bounds.
The money you're talking about is interest on loans made by various organisations to bail out the Greek government.
The numbers I'm talking about are the net payments to Greece each year which it gets anyway. You know how UKIP bangs on about us paying a net amount of £55 million into the EU each day - well some of that money goes to Greece and they don't pay interest on it because they are net recipients to the tune of about 4 billion euros a year..
why is that pessimistic in your view ? sounds like a good plan to me fook the Brussels cunts where it hurts most ..in there own wallets make a change from them raping our pockets "Hey that's a good idea, because a big chunk of that money comes from the UK of course - that's it get us in our own wallets too. I love democracy. Good night! | |||
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"But there being asked to pay 180 billion in interest? Try to get the buckets of money right. They get asked to pay interest on the loans to them, not the annual payments and grants.but the moneys come straight from the EU,ecb. Don't get me wrong Germany have more to lose than Greece on this and if I were the Greek government I'd tell the Germans to fuck off and let the euro implode.... Then ask about renegotiating
Your pessimism knows no bounds.
The money you're talking about is interest on loans made by various organisations to bail out the Greek government.
The numbers I'm talking about are the net payments to Greece each year which it gets anyway. You know how UKIP bangs on about us paying a net amount of £55 million into the EU each day - well some of that money goes to Greece and they don't pay interest on it because they are net recipients to the tune of about 4 billion euros a year..
why is that pessimistic in your view ? sounds like a good plan to me fook the Brussels cunts where it hurts most ..in there own wallets make a change from them raping our pockets
Hey that's a good idea, because a big chunk of that money comes from the UK of course - that's it get us in our own wallets too. I love democracy. Good night!"hb miss ya | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"You won't need a referendum in three years time anyhow, the whole things collapsing. Look Greece aren't going to pay that money back! They can't. and the austerity isn't going to last either, it's too punitive the whole country is furious. The fact of the matter is this Greek government are either going to get the debt wiped by Germany or is going to be out on its ear in two months.... And who finished just behind them in the Greek elections , golden dawn, now for all those people writing about farage being a Nazi.... Listen up I will say this only once .
There's some proper Nazis around in Europe and there getting closer to the finishing line.
The problem comes that if/ when the Greeks get there debt written off by Germany.... The whole raft of other countries are in the wings to say, hey we want are debt written off too...
I agree, and the pro-eu brigade say well the EU keeps peace in europe, well in my opinion the very existence of the EU is making war in europe a more likely prospect in the future if things continue as they are.
That is an opinion and I'm sure some people will be pleased to agree with you. It's not based on anything factual though, is it? You see the EU has been around for a while without collapsing or being the reason for a war. What is it about the very existence of the EU that makes you think it will be the cause of a war?
and everything you say is based on fact is it
I've certainly tried to give you the facts and you can find them all in public sources. Unlike UKIP euro nonsense that seems to get made up as head office goes along
that was a euro party political broadcast by Niel Kinnock "At least he knew what he was talking about, unlike Farage's motley crew. Goodnight | |||
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"But there being asked to pay 180 billion in interest? Try to get the buckets of money right. They get asked to pay interest on the loans to them, not the annual payments and grants.but the moneys come straight from the EU,ecb. Don't get me wrong Germany have more to lose than Greece on this and if I were the Greek government I'd tell the Germans to fuck off and let the euro implode.... Then ask about renegotiating
Your pessimism knows no bounds.
The money you're talking about is interest on loans made by various organisations to bail out the Greek government.
The numbers I'm talking about are the net payments to Greece each year which it gets anyway. You know how UKIP bangs on about us paying a net amount of £55 million into the EU each day - well some of that money goes to Greece and they don't pay interest on it because they are net recipients to the tune of about 4 billion euros a year..". Yes I know there net gainers from EU membership but what I'm saying is the money that's been lent to them had come straight from the troika and it's got more interest attached to it than the net gain there making on membership... So it's in with one hand but out with the other ( it's a sub dom relationship). I'm actually a realistic optimist .
Besides I think Italy will leave before Greece . There gdp has been pretty much zero during the entire euro and three of the opposition parties are pushing for EU referendum, or it could be Finland who are really fearing paying more out to the Greeks and never getting paid back and have a massive problem with INFRASTRUCTURE due to high immigration .
Or it could be Spain Ireland or Portugal who feel fucked over one Greece get let off paying back by the Germans.
And I don't know whether you noticed but Merkels party got beat in Hamburg in an election their with the anti EU party.... It isn't just us that's had enough of the EU | |||
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"But there being asked to pay 180 billion in interest? Try to get the buckets of money right. They get asked to pay interest on the loans to them, not the annual payments and grants.but the moneys come straight from the EU,ecb. Don't get me wrong Germany have more to lose than Greece on this and if I were the Greek government I'd tell the Germans to fuck off and let the euro implode.... Then ask about renegotiating
Your pessimism knows no bounds.
". Yes I know there net gainers from EU membership but what I'm saying is the money that's been lent to them had come straight from the troika and it's got more interest attached to it than the net gain there making on membership... So it's in with one hand but out with the other ( it's a sub dom relationship). I'm actually a realistic optimist .
The optimist in me thinks the Swiss have great environmental laws.
The realist knows that when the Swiss de pegged from the euro... The rats are jumping from the ship. Goodnight | |||
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