FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > A mans worth

A mans worth

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I often wonder, what is a mans worth in the first world? Is there anything that we can do (lets leave the 'piss standing up' grade jokes out yeah?) that a woman can't, that has some vital role in the continuation of human society?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Produce sperm.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

assist in making children

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Both genders have a role to play. The key is working out the strengths of both and utilising them at equal value.

Just because a woman can do it doesn't mean that men are obsolete.

Did you know before WWI knitting was considered a male pastime?

Things change and we adapt to that change. If we don't we go the way of the dinosaurs.

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By *hortieWoman over a year ago

Northampton

Put up shelving

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Put up shelving

No, men get my sister to do that for them.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Produce sperm."

"assist in making children "

We're not the ones who have to carry the baby inside us for 9 months and then breast feed them afterwards, we may play a role in the child making process, but the womans gets the Lions share.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Produce sperm."

This was quite a short thread as it happens.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"I often wonder, what is a mans worth in the first world? Is there anything that we can do (lets leave the 'piss standing up' grade jokes out yeah?) that a woman can't, that has some vital role in the continuation of human society?"

Yes. Men can be part of a loving and fulfilling relationship with another person as a lover, son, father, friend or brother. In my opinion that's a pretty vital role in the continuation of human society along with knowing some strange thing called the "off side rule".

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By *hortieWoman over a year ago

Northampton

"Put up shelving

No, men get my sister to do that for them.

Send your sis round to me then please

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Produce sperm.

assist in making children

We're not the ones who have to carry the baby inside us for 9 months and then breast feed them afterwards, we may play a role in the child making process, but the womans gets the Lions share."

yes but a woman alone can not produce it we need a man..

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Produce sperm.

assist in making children

We're not the ones who have to carry the baby inside us for 9 months and then breast feed them afterwards, we may play a role in the child making process, but the womans gets the Lions share."

Yes but raising a child can and should be as much the male role as the female role.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

War,men are warriors where women aren't

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Produce sperm.

assist in making children

We're not the ones who have to carry the baby inside us for 9 months and then breast feed them afterwards, we may play a role in the child making process, but the womans gets the Lions share.

Yes but raising a child can and should be as much the male role as the female role.

Indeed, but what can a male do in that partnership, that two women can't?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Produce sperm.

assist in making children

We're not the ones who have to carry the baby inside us for 9 months and then breast feed them afterwards, we may play a role in the child making process, but the womans gets the Lions share.

Yes but raising a child can and should be as much the male role as the female role.

Indeed, but what can a male do in that partnership, that two women can't?"

Provide a good strong example of the difference between men and women and how that difference can make a harmonious whole. Teach boys to become good men. Women can do much but we all respond to people we can recognise we have a chance of being.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Produce sperm.

assist in making children

We're not the ones who have to carry the baby inside us for 9 months and then breast feed them afterwards, we may play a role in the child making process, but the womans gets the Lions share.

Yes but raising a child can and should be as much the male role as the female role.

Indeed, but what can a male do in that partnership, that two women can't?

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By *osieWoman over a year ago

Wembley

we can do that too now

[GoGirl Combo package]

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By *ichaelangelaCouple over a year ago

notts

reverse

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Produce sperm.

assist in making children

We're not the ones who have to carry the baby inside us for 9 months and then breast feed them afterwards, we may play a role in the child making process, but the womans gets the Lions share.

Yes but raising a child can and should be as much the male role as the female role.

Indeed, but what can a male do in that partnership, that two women can't?

What are these differences? What is a 'good man'?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Indeed, but what can a male do in that partnership, that two women can't?"

im a lone parent to a girl.. if i had a boy i feel that a mans influence would be missed

as a female who grew up in a non broken family situation, i went to my mother for the most influence, but did love my fathers protectiveness, his strength, he was the main provider (due to this he wasn't around so much though) My dad was the one to do DIY and fix the car

yes those are stereotypical things i guess and a woman CAN do those.. but its just the way it was

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think it's more the point that were not exceptional but despite this rule the world

I think before men start thinking how bad they have it, they really should think how bad most women have it.

Back in the 70s Lennon wrote a song women are the niggers of the world.

In some countries that really hasn't changed that much

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

apologies to marie curie, but we are the risk takers, pushing the world forward.

not gonna be arsed with google, but when did a fem last invent something important?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"apologies to marie curie, but we are the risk takers, pushing the world forward.

not gonna be arsed with google, but when did a fem last invent something important?

Windscreen wipers / escalators both female inventions

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I think it's more the point that were not exceptional but despite this rule the world

I think before men start thinking how bad they have it, they really should think how bad most women have it.

Back in the 70s Lennon wrote a song women are the niggers of the world.

In some countries that really hasn't changed that much

This is why my very first sentence included the words

'what is a mans worth in the first world?'

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Indeed, but what can a male do in that partnership, that two women can't?

What are these differences? What is a 'good man'?"

For me a good man is one that is confident in his skills and abilities, able to explore the world without fear, happy to learn from mistakes and failures, happy to teach what he knows, generous with his time, is non-abusive, is assertive without resorting to aggression or violence but acknowledges he has that within him and channels is in a positive way. He is not afraid to cry when something moves him to tears and he's not afraid to take charge when those around him can't. He sees women as his equals and treats his fellow men and women with respect.

It's a tall order but somehow many a good man exists and they are needed to help raise the next generation of men to be good men too.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

I think it's more the point that were not exceptional but despite this rule the world

I think before men start thinking how bad they have it, they really should think how bad most women have it.

Back in the 70s Lennon wrote a song women are the niggers of the world.

In some countries that really hasn't changed that much

I was listening to that in the car yesterday and then came on here and saw the misogyny of some of Fab in action.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"apologies to marie curie, but we are the risk takers, pushing the world forward.

not gonna be arsed with google, but when did a fem last invent something important?

This is the sort of thing that gets me annoyed. It suggests women can't when the reality may just be they haven't had the same encouragement or have the same time.

At the height of my career it was all made possible because I had a "wife". If I didn't have someone being my "wife" (no sex, just doing all the other things) I'm not sure I would have been able to do as much as I did.

If I had managed to have children I might never have had the time to do as much in my career as I did.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Indeed, but what can a male do in that partnership, that two women can't?

What are these differences? What is a 'good man'?

It's a tall order but somehow many a good man exists and they are needed to help raise the next generation of men to be good men too.

Positive though those qualities are, are they exclusive to men?

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Indeed, but what can a male do in that partnership, that two women can't?

What are these differences? What is a 'good man'?

It's a tall order but somehow many a good man exists and they are needed to help raise the next generation of men to be good men too.

Positive though those qualities are, are they exclusive to men?"

See my point about people aspiring to be what they might become. Women can have all of those qualities but expressed in the feminine form. For a young boy he is unlikely to see himself as becoming a woman.

I looked at a really powerful piece of work a couple of years ago where young men (16-19 year olds) who were off the rails did a twelve week course on what it is to be a man in the modern world. It was an all male space.

These were young men who had largely grown up without male role models. They then turned to the men they saw as strong and powerful: gang leaders, drug dealers and violent men. Many had already become abusive to the women in their lives, including mothers and sisters.

After four weeks more than half had begun to change their _iews. After the full twelve weeks some had dropped out by the majority remained on the course and changed. Changed to the point that people close to them were describing them as a pleasure to be around. Change to the point where they were making positive life choices.

I followed up with a couple of them a year later and the changes continued in a positive way.

THAT was the difference of being with strong, positive males that they had never experienced before.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"apologies to marie curie, but we are the risk takers, pushing the world forward.

not gonna be arsed with google, but when did a fem last invent something important?

You should google. Many women have discovered important scientific things.

For instance: Grace Murray Hopper (December 9, 1906 – January 1, 1992) was an American computer scientist and United States Navy rear admiral.[1] A pioneer in the field, she was one of the first programmers of the Harvard Mark I computer in 1944,[2] and invented the first compiler for a computer programming language.[3][4][5][6][7] She popularized the idea of machine-independent programming languages, which led to the development of COBOL, one of the first high-level programming languages. She is credited with popularizing the term "debugging" for fixing computer glitches (inspired by an actual moth removed from the computer). Owing to the breadth of her accomplishments and her naval rank, she is sometimes referred to as "Amazing Grace".[8][9] The U.S. Navy destroyer USS Hopper (DDG-70) is named for her, as was the Cray XE6 "Hopper" supercomputer at NERSC. wiki copy and paste.

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Men and women aren't exceptional any more, they often don't want to be defined by their gender (despite the massive amount of propaganda aimed at them).

Nobody is exclusive either, although we do have a hierarchy system that claims some are more special than others. Dunno why anyone believes in it?

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By *igeiaWoman over a year ago

Bristol

I think the main issue is in looking for something that can be defined as 'a man's worth' rather than something a person of indeterminate gender can be valued for having achieved. Having to look for something specifically masculine is actually a good sign that equality may already be in some limited effect. Failing that, I do struggle with opening pickled onion jars...

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Positive though those qualities are, are they exclusive to men?

I followed up with a couple of them a year later and the changes continued in a positive way.

THAT was the difference of being with strong, positive males that they had never experienced before.

Ok, you make some good points about the value of strength and masculinity, and I agree that it's important that boys have strong, positive male role models in their lives to guide them into becoming strong, respectable men themselves. But do you feel that society itself has lost perspective of what a MAN should be? It seems to me, that gender lines have become so utterly blurred, that the definition of what manliness has become lost to most, and masculinity appears to be something that is now either associated with loudness, bad manners, d*unkenness and general loutish violence, or some feeble silly little cliché to be mocked and ridiculed ('man flu' anyone?). Why is it that there are so, so many more guys on swinging and dating sites than women - doesn't the world WANT them anymore? Or are they just underqualified as 'men'?

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By *ce WingerMan over a year ago

P.O. Box DE1 0NQ

Grow a half decent beard

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

I don't deny that Western men are struggling with identity. They are struggling with giving up some of their power base and feel emasculated because of this. They need to grow into this new way of being. Some men have; it's not impossible.

If I were to talk about this in terms of race instead of gender would you feel that you no longer have a place because everyone else is black/brown/a n other ethnicity? Yes, there are those that feel that but I would hope you would see that's a nonsense. It's the same with these distorted gender arguments.

We are different but equal. Society and humanity needs both. Vive la difference.

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

Well I like a traditional man

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I don't see it that way. I don't see women as needing to be chained to the kitchen sink, and fully believe in their right to explore various roles in society freely, but it seems to me that in doing this, the male identity has become so strongly compromised that men don't even fully know what is expected of them these days, hence my 'underqualified' comment. The end result is a huge number of guys who women feel no attraction to, simply because they don't see them as MEN.

"If I were to talk about this in terms of race instead of gender would you feel that you no longer have a place because everyone else is black/brown/a n other ethnicity? Yes, there are those that feel that but I would hope you would see that's a nonsense. It's the same with these distorted gender arguments.

We are different but equal. Society and humanity needs both. Vive la difference.

That's a different argument, we're not talking about a small number of people being different to those around them here, we're talking the decline of 50% of the first world human population.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

We are different but equal. Society and humanity needs both. Vive la difference.

That's a different argument, we're not talking about a small number of people being different to those around them here, we're talking the decline of 50% of the first world human population."

It really isn't a different argument. It's about adapting and learning.

There is no one way of being but there are behaviours we can agree that we want for society to function well.

I don't deny that women struggle with this change too. All I can say is that I can see real examples where men and women behave equally and their children have grown up without any confusion about the differences. The young women and men I am proud to call friends and I look forward to seeing them bring up their children now.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Not a clue what anyone else has put - but our 'worth' as human beings has nothing to do with which sex organs we have or how much money we have/earn - and everything to do with the sort of person we are! We each have the capacity to make a huge difference to those around us (even if it's only our family and friends) for the good or bad - it's which we choose which determines our worth! Xx

(Here endeth the lesson!)

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

We are different but equal. Society and humanity needs both. Vive la difference.

That's a different argument, we're not talking about a small number of people being different to those around them here, we're talking the decline of 50% of the first world human population.

It really isn't a different argument. It's about adapting and learning."

But it is a different argument, because if I was to say 'I don't feel welcome in this Asian society, I feel I'm having to compromise my white identity' I'd be talking bullshit by assuming that my race is my identity, when colours aside, we're all the same. Male and female identities ARE different however.

"There is no one way of being but there are behaviours we can agree that we want for society to function well."

Society will never function well as long as you have an entire generation of young males growing up confused as to who they are, drifting around with no identity and place in the world, and no self esteem as a result.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ps. Men, generally speaking, are physically stronger and more analytical/less emotional. When these differences are used to the good then men are wonderful - and I want one! Protectors (and carriers of children on shoulders) and practical problem solvers etc etc.

When they're used for the bad - they can be cold, calculating bullies who cause misery to those around them! Xxx

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

We are different but equal. Society and humanity needs both. Vive la difference.

That's a different argument, we're not talking about a small number of people being different to those around them here, we're talking the decline of 50% of the first world human population.

It really isn't a different argument. It's about adapting and learning.

There is no one way of being but there are behaviours we can agree that we want for society to function well.

I can't change how you see things all I can say is that I have seen things in a different way: I have seen young men who aren't confused because they have seen strong male and female role models. Their friends are male and female and they see no problem with that as they are equal but different.

Colour is as much part of identity as gender. There wouldn't be so much hatred if it were otherwise.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I was that rare thing called a single Dad who ALSO brought his daughter up on his own whilst holding down a job. Changed nappies, stayed up with her all night when she was ill, made her laugh, encouraged her all the way through life, loved her to bits (and obviously still do). She got a law degree, passed her solicitors exams and is now getting on with her career - BUT still loves her Dad and turns to him in times of need - so, of course we have a part to play but, yes, we are an easy target in this modern era so I know exactly what you mean, OP

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By *ot monkey71Couple over a year ago

middlesbrough

Maybe women would be less inclined to dress to impress without men, now that's a lot of money the cosmetics and fashion industry's are going to lose. I don't think the porn industry would be quite as big either.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Why do you have to have a worth or value that women don't have anyway? What's wrong with being equals?

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Why do you have to have a worth or value that women don't have anyway? What's wrong with being equals?"

That's the real point. Seeing the change to being equal as a diminution of man's worth. It isn't.

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By *ot monkey71Couple over a year ago

middlesbrough

"Why do you have to have a worth or value that women don't have anyway? What's wrong with being equals?"

Men are trying to be more equal in modern times hence moobs.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"Why do you have to have a worth or value that women don't have anyway? What's wrong with being equals?

Men are trying to be more equal in modern times hence moobs.

Actually, I do think that is one of the problems: men have been exposed to too much oestrogen in the water, through plastics etc. and they are getting moobs and confuddled.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Maybe women would be less inclined to dress to impress without men, now that's a lot of money the cosmetics and fashion industry's are going to lose. I don't think the porn industry would be quite as big either.

This is actually a very good point. Went for a night out in Hebden Bridge one weekend (lesbian capital of Britain) - never seen such an unkempt, scruffy, rather dirty collection of the fairer sex in our lives - and we mean - bloody awful!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Why do you have to have a worth or value that women don't have anyway? What's wrong with being equals?

That's the real point. Seeing the change to being equal as a diminution of man's worth. It isn't.

Yep.

I don't subscribe to the fact that we have given roles, and given status based on who/what we are and where are roots came from, even though it's fundamental to our way of life right now and if that changed the people at the 'top' wouldn't like it.

All this BS about some people being more worthy than others when all we own is our time, it's the only thing we can give to others or keep for ourselves. Why is one persons time worth more than someone elses, just because they placed self importance on themselves?

It's all a load of crap and it starts when we divide ourselves based on colour, gender, finances, anything we can divide ourselves with really. Once we think we're more important and more 'useful' than someone else, or look for reasons why we are, then we start devaluing others based on them not being the same us.

I agree, men aren't coming down in status, most men never had a status to begin with (guys are any of you royalty or an ambassador, probably not), you weren always as low as most of us women have been given status, just someone told you you were more important because women were treated like they had no rights and were property of men. Well now we have rights, we have all the rights men have and if that deflates your self esteem then idk what to say to you. You don't need to be lost, just be yourself, be a human being. Empathise with others, find your own way in life but don't let anyone else define who you are and what you do.

Women can also not know what they want in life and can feel lost too, i think because we have been forced to participate in someone unnaturals idea of society for millenia now that we don't even know what we actually want, never been allowed to explore how to find our own way?

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"Why do you have to have a worth or value that women don't have anyway? What's wrong with being equals?

Men are trying to be more equal in modern times hence moobs.

Actually, I do think that is one of the problems: men have been exposed to too much oestrogen in the water, through plastics etc. and they are getting moobs and confuddled.

I've just read the whole thread and do you know what?

The bit that makes the most sense is blaming the oestrogen for moobs.

I don't worry about what it is to be a man. I don't feel confused, undervalued or worry that because I'm not a musclebound gym bunny that I'll be perceived as in any way less masculine.

I don't see the need for men and women to have specifically different roles in life, expectations that one gender will be better at something than another or that in an age where things are more gender equal (some, not all!) that men should panic about their identities and how they are perceived by the opposite sex.

Positive characteristics and traits are not gender specific. Neither are negative ones.

Sometimes I really do think some people over evaluate everything in life when if they'd pause for a moment they'd realise that the things they are concerned about are largely unimportant and often irrelevant.

And I seriously don't get the spurious link between gender identity in men and the number of them on swingers/dating sites.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

No matter what anyone says, IMO, the traditional roles i.e. breadwinner versus homely wife (admittedly in a loving and co-operative relationship) worked VERY well for a VERY long time. Perhaps the breakdown we see in society all around us now has something to do with that "traditional" way being destroyed within the last few generations?

You can't just dismiss it - can you ?

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"No matter what anyone says, IMO, the traditional roles i.e. breadwinner versus homely wife (admittedly in a loving and co-operative relationship) worked VERY well for a VERY long time. Perhaps the breakdown we see in society all around us now has something to do with that "traditional" way being destroyed within the last few generations?

You can't just dismiss it - can you ? "

It worked for some but not all, they just didn't have a choice to change things.

Now it works for some but not all but they have more choices.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

We are different but equal. Society and humanity needs both. Vive la difference.

That's a different argument, we're not talking about a small number of people being different to those around them here, we're talking the decline of 50% of the first world human population.

It really isn't a different argument. It's about adapting and learning.

There is no one way of being but there are behaviours we can agree that we want for society to function well.

Colour is as much part of identity as gender. There wouldn't be so much hatred if it were otherwise.

No it isn't, as gender identity is largely a part of Oestrogen and Testosterone, racial hatred is based upon ignorance and the identities we slap on those of a different ethnicity to us, it's not inherent in the same way.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

We are different but equal. Society and humanity needs both. Vive la difference.

That's a different argument, we're not talking about a small number of people being different to those around them here, we're talking the decline of 50% of the first world human population.

It really isn't a different argument. It's about adapting and learning.

There is no one way of being but there are behaviours we can agree that we want for society to function well.

Colour is as much part of identity as gender. There wouldn't be so much hatred if it were otherwise.

Your argument is the basis of nature or nurture. Is gender identity all nature, here and now in the Western World? No! We expose children to a number of things, including how we _iew the world, that determine how they define their gender.

I've explained all of this as best I can on here while doing other things.

Gender and racial hatred come from much the same place. The isms are about who holds the power and makes the decisions. That's societal and not about our hormones.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

No one seems to agonise over their role in society based on their eye colour?

Oh woe is me, I have green eyes and can't fit in with my predominantly brown or blue eyes friends.

My husband has a different eye colour to me and we can't figure out who should feel superior because of this?

The whole "which gender feels superior" and "gender identity" is about as much rubbish as assigning traits to eye colour. Utterly ridiculous.

Just be you. As much as you feel you want to be.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Paratroopers, women aren't allowed in the para reg, I don't even think they're allowed to do p company to even see if they could become paras.

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By *iewMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Angus & Findhorn

Have a code word on a profile to ensure people have read a list of demands..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I`m generally all for equality. I do note a trait, however, in that women seem to want equality when it comes to the likes of equal pay (which again I agree with) for office jobs and the like. I wonder if they would be so quick to go down the coalmines (for equal pay) in their droves or sign up to die in the trenches (for equal pay) if, God forbid, trench warfare ever came along again?

I would GENUINELY like honest answers?

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"I`m generally all for equality. I do note a trait, however, in that women seem to want equality when it comes to the likes of equal pay (which again I agree with) for office jobs and the like. I wonder if they would be so quick to go down the coalmines (for equal pay) in their droves or sign up to die in the trenches (for equal pay) if, God forbid, trench warfare ever came along again?

I would GENUINELY like honest answers?"

Some women would. Remember not all men went down the mines or into the trenches. So, just as some men would so would some women.

Women's contribution to WWI and WWII opened the door for much of this change. They did dirty, dangerous jobs that had been the preserve of men only. When society tried to put the lid back on them and suggest they weren't capable of such work many were ready to fight for a change. Interestingly, society did a good job in squashing women back into the "home" box and so the contribution of women wasn't celebrated for some time.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Your argument is the basis of nature or nurture. Is gender identity all nature, here and now in the Western World? No! We expose children to a number of things, including how we _iew the world, that determine how they define their gender."

My argument is based on a combination of both, you can raise a person so far, but ultimately nature has the final say. Also, if a persons identity is entirely fluid, and you can teach a man to be a woman and vice versa, then how would you define transsexuality, where one sex firmly believes they should be the other? Do they have an objective, genetic predisposition toward a gender other than the one they were born with, or can they be 'taught' to be their current sex?

"Gender and racial hatred come from much the same place. The isms are about who holds the power and makes the decisions. That's societal and not about our hormones."

If that were true then women could have just as easily become the hunter gatherers of the species and males the home makers, and yet these traditional roles have only changed in recent years due to modern society rendering the typical male identity largely obsolete.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Gender and racial hatred come from much the same place. The isms are about who holds the power and makes the decisions. That's societal and not about our hormones.

Women did a lot of gathering, just as important and some might argue moreso as the big game catches were sporadic. Women were busy with the child rearing and had to be with their children as the source of food was attached to their bodies.

Nowhere have a said a person's identity is entirely fluid. I do not believe nature has the final say as we are so divorced from nature that society is what defines us now.

I give up as this is now a circular argument with you.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

well as much as i love playing with the ladies nothing beats his cock - sorry to be so basic

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I would GENUINELY like honest answers?

Some women would. Remember not all men went down the mines or into the trenches. So, just as some men would so would some women.

Yes agree SOME women would - but I bet not many - and I do not decry from their war effort either - was just an honest question - I reckon 90/95% of women would not go down the mines or in the trenches though- we are fundamentally different creatures - suited to different things - always have been and one day, will be again - modern 'trends' methinks sometimes.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"well as much as i love playing with the ladies nothing beats his cock - sorry to be so basic

I agree. It's almost as if it had been designed to fit.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Gender and racial hatred come from much the same place. The isms are about who holds the power and makes the decisions. That's societal and not about our hormones.

Women did a lot of gathering, just as important and some might argue moreso as the big game catches were sporadic."

There's a big difference between gathering fruits, nuts and berries and hunting wild animals.

"Nowhere have a said a person's identity is entirely fluid."

Actually you said:

" We expose children to a number of things, including how we _iew the world, that determine how they define their gender."

Sounds to me like you're saying gender can be taught.

"I do not believe nature has the final say as we are so divorced from nature that society is what defines us now."

Around 60 million years ago the first apes were said to have appeared, to bring that into perspective, 10'000 years is what we call 'ancient' human civilisation, about the first time organised societies were established. Multiply that 10'000 by 100, then multiple THAT by 60 - you don't phase out several millions of years of evolution in a few thousand years of organised society.

"I give up as this is now a circular argument with you."

I simply make a point then add to it, countering any points made to the contrary along the way, it's far from circular.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"well as much as i love playing with the ladies nothing beats his cock - sorry to be so basic

I agree. It's almost as if it had been designed to fit. "

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If you look at contemporary traditional hunter - gathering societies in Africa, the women actually 'gather' more in terms of calories (vegetation, berries etc) whilst getting the water, looking after the kids etc etc. Whilst the men are off hunting days on end but get a kill so rarely they actually contribute less in terms of calories whilst not being able to contribute in other areas. So let's put the myth of the man as provider of food to bed.

And surely our identity is more than just gender anyway?

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

Gender and racial hatred come from much the same place. The isms are about who holds the power and makes the decisions. That's societal and not about our hormones.

Women did a lot of gathering, just as important and some might argue moreso as the big game catches were sporadic.

There's a big difference between gathering fruits, nuts and berries and hunting wild animals.

Nowhere have a said a person's identity is entirely fluid.

Actually you said:

We expose children to a number of things, including how we _iew the world, that determine how they define their gender.

Sounds to me like you're saying gender can be taught.

I do not believe nature has the final say as we are so divorced from nature that society is what defines us now.

I give up as this is now a circular argument with you.

I simply make a point then add to it, countering any points made to the contrary along the way, it's far from circular."

You hit the nail on the head earlier.

"modern society rendering the typical male identity largely obsolete."

Yep. I think you're right. It is obsolete, or at the least very close to it.

However I (and I suspect a high percentage of men) don't see an issue with this. Those that do seem, and come across as, insecure in themselves and concerned that without a traditional 'masculine' image to live up to (e.g the importance of physical characteristics, being the provider, needing to define himself by physical strength and power, the importance of having a huge cock etc.) that they have lost something - some part of their identity and as you put it 'worth'.

Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What a spurious point this is. So women didn't work in the coal mines.....plenty died in the linen factories and more so in childbirth through the ages! This has nothing to do with equality.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Gender and racial hatred come from much the same place. The isms are about who holds the power and makes the decisions. That's societal and not about our hormones.

Women did a lot of gathering, just as important and some might argue moreso as the big game catches were sporadic.

There's a big difference between gathering fruits, nuts and berries and hunting wild animals.

Nowhere have a said a person's identity is entirely fluid.

Actually you said:

We expose children to a number of things, including how we _iew the world, that determine how they define their gender.

Sounds to me like you're saying gender can be taught.

I do not believe nature has the final say as we are so divorced from nature that society is what defines us now.

I give up as this is now a circular argument with you.

I simply make a point then add to it, countering any points made to the contrary along the way, it's far from circular.

You hit the nail on the head earlier.

"modern society rendering the typical male identity largely obsolete."

Yep. I think you're right. It is obsolete, or at the least very close to it.

Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

Exactly this!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Indeed, but what can a male do in that partnership, that two women can't?

What are these differences? What is a 'good man'?

It's a tall order but somehow many a good man exists and they are needed to help raise the next generation of men to be good men too.

Now that is the challenge with my son

the most difficult with him is the emotional intelligence development as he is very different to me.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I would GENUINELY like honest answers?"

I think unless you personally went down a mine or fought in trenches then you can't really claim credit for what some people did based on your gender?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What a spurious point this is. So women didn't work in the coal mines.....plenty died in the linen factories and more so in childbirth through the ages! This has nothing to do with equality.

Think your point is even more spurious - how can a man die in childbirth please ??

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

A mans worth should be defined by his thoughts, words and deeds - to stand as a man measured upon his merit - worthy of being thought of as a decent human being.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Why do you have to have a worth or value that women don't have anyway? What's wrong with being equals?

Men are trying to be more equal in modern times hence moobs.

Actually, I do think that is one of the problems: men have been exposed to too much oestrogen in the water, through plastics etc. and they are getting moobs and confuddled.

I've just read the whole thread and do you know what?

The bit that makes the most sense is blaming the oestrogen for moobs.

I don't worry about what it is to be a man. I don't feel confused, undervalued or worry that because I'm not a musclebound gym bunny that I'll be perceived as in any way less masculine.

Positive characteristics and traits are not gender specific. Neither are negative ones.

And I seriously don't get the spurious link between gender identity in men and the number of them on swingers/dating sites.

I am of a similar _iew to Obi on this

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A mans worth should be defined by his thoughts, words and deeds - to stand as a man measured upon his merit - worthy of being thought of as a decent human being.

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By *eaningofLifeCouple over a year ago

York

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Just a thought - but shouldn't women be just as confused and disoriented as men apparently are?

We now have nurseries to take care of our children so we can go to work, schools to educate them, and machines to cook, wash clothes, wash dishes, entertain etc etc - so arguably, other than our role in conception/birth we are just as 'irrelevant' as a gender as men (it has been argued) are - and men are currently proving in droves that they are just as capable of nurturing/rearing their children as women are!

So are we ALL worthless??

No - of course we're not! Xxx

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

Apparently no issues with paying increased membership fees at swingers clubs either.

'Progress' lol

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just a thought - but shouldn't women be just as confused and disoriented as men apparently are?

So are we ALL worthless??

No - of course we're not! Xxx"

Good point. As a married childless woman though, I still regularly get a huge amount of 'when are you going to have kids' and similar questioning sometimes from virtual strangers, the implication being that it's still my real purpose in the world.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I probably no longer "NEED" a man, in the way I would have done in generations past if working and supporting myself wasn't an option. However I still very much WANT a man and I think I always will.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

oh no - I don't want to really get involved in this as it can get emotive but (just my opinion) having children and bringing them up right is the ONLY really worthwhile reason for being here (and nothing personal honest - just when I step back almost everything else is pretty damned shallow in comparison)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"oh no - I don't want to really get involved in this as it can get emotive but (just my opinion) having children and bringing them up right is the ONLY really worthwhile reason for being here (and nothing personal honest - just when I step back almost everything else is pretty damned shallow in comparison)"

I'm extremely glad that I'm fortunate enough to live in a world where some people have chosen to do something other than this with their lives. Those who focused on science, invention, medicine, philosophy, progress.

Please don't dismiss those who by nature or by choice are childless as being motivated by shallow desires because you're right, it is emotive, and also unbelievably dismissive.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Please don't dismiss those who by nature or by choice are childless as being motivated by shallow desires because you're right, it is emotive, and also unbelievably dismissive. "

as I said nothing personal - we can only go off our own experiences - no problem regarding those who clearly can't have children. My OWN experience of those who cannot is that they all 9without exception) have been extremely selfish and money orientated with it. I`m sure there are many exceptions it's just I have never met them

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

sorry meant to say those who can but choose not to

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Please don't dismiss those who by nature or by choice are childless as being motivated by shallow desires because you're right, it is emotive, and also unbelievably dismissive. "

I have to say I agree! I have three kids and adore them, but one of the greatest aspects of modern society, and the principle reason for the rise in status of women, is that women (and their partners) can now choose if and when to become parents! Not everyone would make a 'natural' parent - but their contribution to society should never be measured by that!

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Not all of us could manage having children. It was all I wanted for a long time and my inability to have a pregnancy go to full term and the subsequent loss of a premature son nearly drove me mad.

We can have purpose without.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Please don't dismiss those who by nature or by choice are childless as being motivated by shallow desires because you're right, it is emotive, and also unbelievably dismissive.

That's very sad. Some of the most selfish people I know (in MY experience) are those with children, and some of the most arrogant and money orientated too. I would never seek to generalise about an entire section of society based on them.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Not all of us could manage having children. It was all I wanted for a long time and my inability to have a pregnancy go to full term and the subsequent loss of a premature son nearly drove me mad.

We can have purpose without."

agree xxx

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By *londeCazWoman over a year ago

Arse End of the Universe, Cumbria

"Put up shelving

Both of my significant relationships couldn't put up a shelf if I held a gun against their heads! I did all the DIY in those relationships where I decided I wouldn't pay for it. I still can and will do most of my own bits around the house, but I earn a good wage so I'm sometimes happy to pay a bloke (or woman) to do it for me

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By *londeCazWoman over a year ago

Arse End of the Universe, Cumbria

Please don't dismiss those who by nature or by choice are childless as being motivated by shallow desires because you're right, it is emotive, and also unbelievably dismissive.

I'm sorry you've only met selfish and money oriented childless folk. I'm childless by choice and have seldom met any child free people like that. whilst I enjoy my money and spend it mostly on myself, I'm not up my own arse about it

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Gender and racial hatred come from much the same place. The isms are about who holds the power and makes the decisions. That's societal and not about our hormones.

Why do men need an "identity"? What is the problem with both sexes being equally capable in most things?

Ok, men can't carry children but that is not the be all and end all of living.

I haven't carried children either. Does that mean I don't have a role or a place in society? Does it bollocks.

Most adults I know are married or in long term partnerships. Most of the rest are looking for a partner.

If men no longer have a defined "role" then those partnerships exist because the people involved want them. Surely being with someone because you want to be is better than having to choose the best available option because you need them, or because society expects it?

Of course, it does give people more options when it comes to not being willing to accept the best option, if it's not what they want.

That does mean that some people who may have been married years ago are finding it difficult to find someone. That's sometimes because they are flawed in some way, or haven't moved past the idea of what "a man" or "a woman" is, and can't offer what others want.

That's what it comes down to now. You need to be what somebody wants because they no longer need anyone in the same way.

Of course that's going to make it difficult for people who, despite being flawed, would have been chosen because they could fulfil a need. Those people need to move on and realise they have to be wanted, not needed to fulfil a role.

I, speaking personally, don't need a man. I have, however, had two long relationships, (8 years and 7 years respectively). Why would I choose to do that if men have no place and no value?

I'd like a partner now, if the right one happens along, but if not, I'll continue doing my own thing. I'm not actively looking for a partner, (not for longer than a night anyway!)

I prefer a society where people partner up because they choose to, over one where half the population is repressed and practically forced to make the best of a relationship because they need it to survive. Yes, it was easier for men to find partners, (and those partners often had to endure controlling behaviour, drinking, gambling, abuse, infidelity etc.), but why would anyone want to be with someone who needs to be with them, rather than wants to be there?

Things have changed. It doesn't mean men no longer have a place though. It does mean that place is no longer based purely on them being able to do things women can't.

This OP almost comes across as an 'it's not fair' post about women no longer being forced into relationships, meaning it's more difficult for men to find a partner.

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

Please don't dismiss those who by nature or by choice are childless as being motivated by shallow desires because you're right, it is emotive, and also unbelievably dismissive.

Same here actually.

I know several sets of parents who think they are something special because they have kids and that extra rights should apply to them because of that.

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By *educedWoman over a year ago

Birmingham

I dunno what the question was bit I can't take my dress off. It would be better if there was a man/ woman here to unzip me. So, in answer to your question...grapefruit.

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By *educedWoman over a year ago

Birmingham

"I dunno what the question was bit I can't take my dress off. It would be better if there was a man/ woman here to unzip me. So, in answer to your question...grapefruit. "

*but

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

Apparently no issues with paying increased membership fees at swingers clubs either.

'Progress' lol"

Actually no - but that's a totally different subject that as you know has been covered many, many times before.

But now you mention it - after your earlier comment about the volumes of men on Internet dating/swingers sites and now a whine about club pricing policies...........under all the pseudo-psychological and theoretical waffle the thread seems to basically come back to a familiar point.

That you see men and yourself as being treated unfairly in the swinging world.

Or am I wrong?

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

Apparently no issues with paying increased membership fees at swingers clubs either.

'Progress' lol

Actually no - but that's a totally different subject that as you know has been covered many, many times before.

That you see men and yourself as being treated unfairly in the swinging world.

Or am I wrong?

I don't think it's just the swinging world he's complaining about.

I think it's another angle on the usual whine of he can't get what he wants.

This time it's because men are somehow not needed in society any more. This apparently has lead to a glut of unwanted men on swinging and dating sites which further hampers his chances.

In the good old days, where men were men and women were grateful, he'd be "needed" and would be able to get what he wants.

As you know, the OP has complained a lot previously about the amount of competition and how it should be limited, to give the "genuine swingers" like him more of a chance.

As usual he's failing to realise that even if he was the only guy on here, if he's not what the women he's interested in want, he's not going to get meets.

As usual he's deeply in denial and does not want to look to himself to find why he can't get what he wants.

As we know, it's society, it's other men, it's this, that or the other. It's always someone else's fault.

I can't understand why anyone sticks with something that apparently treats them so unfairly and causes them so much angst.

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

As for club pricing, is it just me that sees the irony here?

On one hand the OP argues that there are too many men on this site and they hamper the chances of the "genuine, experienced" men, so there should be limitations placed on a lot of the men.

And yet he complains bitterly about the price concessions made to women and couples in order to try to encourage more in, in order to avoid the situation of too many men and too few women.

Confused much?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"As for club pricing, is it just me that sees the irony here?

On one hand the OP argues that there are too many men on this site and they hamper the chances of the "genuine, experienced" men, so there should be limitations placed on a lot of the men.

And yet he complains bitterly about the price concessions made to women and couples in order to try to encourage more in, in order to avoid the situation of too many men and too few women.

Confused much?"

Clubs can easily limit the number of guys allowed in on a night. They don't have to do it with pricing. That's just greed. And a form of prostitution.

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"As for club pricing, is it just me that sees the irony here?

On one hand the OP argues that there are too many men on this site and they hamper the chances of the "genuine, experienced" men, so there should be limitations placed on a lot of the men.

And yet he complains bitterly about the price concessions made to women and couples in order to try to encourage more in, in order to avoid the situation of too many men and too few women.

Confused much?

Clubs can easily limit the number of guys allowed in on a night. They don't have to do it with pricing. That's just greed. And a form of prostitution. "

I agree, it's unfair on guys and it's unnecessary. There are other ways it could be done.

It does work to limit the numbers though and it seems strange that the OP wants numbers limited on here but is against something that does the same in clubs.

He either wants men treated equally or he doesn't. He wants men charged the same in clubs but wants a two tier system on here? So treating men, or some men, differently is actually ok, as long as it suits what the OP wants.

I suspect that if the OPs desire to have restrictions on a lot of the guys on here was adopted, and the OP found himself in the restricted category, that too would be unfair.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The point about swinging and dating sites is a strange one. (I'm leaving swinging sites aside, because that's obviously about a specific issue with the situation on this site.)

The proliferation of men on dating sites is the same as the proliferation of women on dating sites. It's a way people meet others now, nothing more sinister about it than that. It's not about men having been cast on the scrap heap and left unwanted. It's more about people being more mobile, living and working in different parts of the country from where they grew up and needing different ways of meeting potential partners than would have been required 50 years ago.

Almost all of my beautiful, intelligent and successful female friends have used Internet dating of some form or another at some point. So have loads of the male ones. It's not a sign any of them are on any kind of scrap heap, it's the new normal.

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"The point about swinging and dating sites is a strange one. (I'm leaving swinging sites aside, because that's obviously about a specific issue with the situation on this site.)

The OP claimed there are more men than women on both swinging and dating sites.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The point about swinging and dating sites is a strange one. (I'm leaving swinging sites aside, because that's obviously about a specific issue with the situation on this site.)

The OP claimed there are more men than women on both swinging and dating sites."

I know, and regarding dating sites I'm pretty sure that's bollocks. It will doubtless vary by age category and location but all the statistics I've seen have suggested it tends towards 50/50 on the big sites like Match.

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"The point about swinging and dating sites is a strange one. (I'm leaving swinging sites aside, because that's obviously about a specific issue with the situation on this site.)

The OP claimed there are more men than women on both swinging and dating sites.

I don't use dating sites but I've heard similar. It certainly seems more likely.

Of course, the percentages of each sex that are looking for a relationship vs looking for sex is open to debate!

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

Apparently no issues with paying increased membership fees at swingers clubs either.

'Progress' lol

Actually no - but that's a totally different subject that as you know has been covered many, many times before."

And did you arrive at a suitable and relevant conclusion as to why single males have to contribute more financially to the scene, that won't collapse under the most simple of scrutiny like all your other arguements? Given its you Obi, I'll assume the answer is - no.

"But now you mention it - after your earlier comment about the volumes of men on Internet dating/swingers sites and now a whine about club pricing policies...........under all the pseudo-psychological and theoretical waffle the thread seems to basically come back to a familiar point."

That point being that males are seen as an excess supply in the swinging scene, and thusly have to pay more to participate than women and couples, which ties in perfectly with my 'pseudo-psychological waffle' perfectly.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"apologies to marie curie, but we are the risk takers, pushing the world forward.

not gonna be arsed with google, but when did a fem last invent something important?

Ignorance is never attractive.

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By *igeiaWoman over a year ago

Bristol

"Apparently no issues with paying increased membership fees at swingers clubs either."

I've always thought of it not as increasing fees for single men but as reducing them for couples and single women as an incentive. It's quite a daunting thing to go to a club on your own as a member of the demographic most under-represented at most club nights so if they want to encourage me to do so with a reduced entrance fee then it's good business sense and nothing more.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

..a bit generalised but Mens worth can be truly realised when they can control their ego and their c##k and ubderstand respect. Which is easier said than done on here. Although their are some good examples.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Have said that both species are made equal and have different strengths. Just the way we were all made.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

I would GENUINELY like honest answers?"

Yes. I do believe women would take those jobs. Why wouldn't they ? Women went down the mines in Britain pre the 1842 act which forbad women and children under the age of 13 to work below the ground.

I believe they carried on on ground level for some years. They have always been staunch, loud activists during times of strike.

Incidentally it was MEN who passed laws forbidding women to carry on in the pits. More jobs for the boys that way. There are many jobs that women have been pushed out of over the years. Including soldiering. They still fight on the frong line in many countries and make up a sizeable section of our armed forces.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"What a spurious point this is. So women didn't work in the coal mines.....plenty died in the linen factories and more so in childbirth through the ages! This has nothing to do with equality.

Women did work in coal mines.

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

Apparently no issues with paying increased membership fees at swingers clubs either.

'Progress' lol

Actually no - but that's a totally different subject that as you know has been covered many, many times before.

Single males don't HAVE to contribute anything to the swinging scene financially. There are plenty that meet privately at no cost, go to parties at no cost, attend socials and club nights at either no cost or similar cost to women and couples. As was pointed out the variance in entry cost is more of a discount for women and couples than a premium for males. A flat rate system would imbalance the numbers and provide a client base that would be disproportionate in terms of men vs women/couples. Nobody is forced to spend a penny to enjoy a swinging lifestyle - no element of it is compulsory.

Regarding your second point? Who says men are seen as an excess commodity in swinging? Plenty will point out that there are more single males on swinging sites - but since a high percentage of these are looking for 1-2-1 meets with women (not really swinging but there's no reason why they can't choose to do this via this and other sites) then those looking to enjoy fun with couples, groups and the club scene are probably more in proportion with other demographics than you think.

We're all equal. There's no 'food chain'. Any perception that there is is down to the individual and that perception is usually more down to a perceived lack of 'success' than a reality of one group being more important or worthy than any other.

Anyone can enjoy this lifestyle. Seems some don't though - which makes me wonder why they still participate in it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's a male dominated world, run by males for males, I can't remember the name of the Irish writer but he stated women are the slave of slaves, I think what he meant by that is even the lowest standard of life,the slave! Had their own slaves.

I don't think that's changed even in the first world!

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"What a spurious point this is. So women didn't work in the coal mines.....plenty died in the linen factories and more so in childbirth through the ages! This has nothing to do with equality.

Women did work in coal mines."

And digging the train tracks:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20709871

and many other 'male' trades.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"What a spurious point this is. So women didn't work in the coal mines.....plenty died in the linen factories and more so in childbirth through the ages! This has nothing to do with equality.

Women did work in coal mines.

And digging the train tracks:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20709871

and many other 'male' trades.

I often see people quoting the post war error. I do wish they'd do a little more research.

Anyway ... this post is irrelevant in many ways.

The biggest indicator of success or lack of it in this world is class. Not gender.

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By *risky_MareWoman over a year ago

...Up on the Downs

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Whipping boy, who the fuck are they gonna nag without a man around

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"War,men are warriors where women aren't "

Ever tried to get between a woman & her child/ren?

Seriously women are the biggest & best warriors

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

A boxing day shit, no woman can compete or compare to the size smell or pride taken in your post Christmas day dump.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

Apparently no issues with paying increased membership fees at swingers clubs either.

'Progress' lol

Actually no - but that's a totally different subject that as you know has been covered many, many times before.

And guys don't get this same discount because...?

"A flat rate system would imbalance the numbers and provide a client base that would be disproportionate in terms of men vs women/couples."

Then why are there so many more single male swingers wanting to attend - are they not getting enough sex elsewhere?

" Nobody is forced to spend a penny to enjoy a swinging lifestyle - no element of it is compulsory."

You can pretty much live on bread and water if you HAVE to, eating and drinking for enjoyment isn't compulsory either - but we all need to enjoy our lives and not just survive them, so why should males have to pay extra for that same enjoyment afforded to women and couples?

"Regarding your second point? Who says men are seen as an excess commodity in swinging?"

You highlighted it further up in your own quote, acknowledging how many more male swingers there are in the scene than women and couples

"Plenty will point out that there are more single males on swinging sites - but since a high percentage of these are looking for 1-2-1 meets with women (not really swinging but there's no reason why they can't choose to do this via this and other sites)"

Swinging/No strings sex, whatever, the single male demographic is struggling to get what they want out of the scene, or have to pay extra if they want a greater chance of success than women and couples do.

"We're all equal. There's no 'food chain'. Any perception that there is is down to the individual and that perception is usually more down to a perceived lack of 'success' than a reality of one group being more important or worthy than any other."

You are entirely incorrect, as I've continue pointed out to you many times, on many threads.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman over a year ago

evesham

"A boxing day shit, no woman can compete or compare to the size smell or pride taken in your post Christmas day dump."

wanna bet

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman over a year ago

evesham

"Have said that both species are made equal and have different strengths. Just the way we were all made."

ppsssstttt men and women are of the same species

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Have said that both species are made equal and have different strengths. Just the way we were all made.

ppsssstttt men and women are of the same species

The feeeeeemale of the species is more deadly than the maaaaaale

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We all deserve the same opportunities.

Ethics used to run on that, not sure it has done for a long time now.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman over a year ago

evesham

"Have said that both species are made equal and have different strengths. Just the way we were all made.

ppsssstttt men and women are of the same species

The feeeeeemale of the species is more deadly than the maaaaaale"

but is still the same species

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

Apparently no issues with paying increased membership fees at swingers clubs either.

'Progress' lol

Actually no - but that's a totally different subject that as you know has been covered many, many times before.

And guys don't get this same discount because...?

Erm......if they did then it wouldn't be a discount to encourage under-represented demographics. (Single females/couples)

A flat rate system would imbalance the numbers and provide a client base that would be disproportionate in terms of men vs women/couples.

Then why are there so many more single male swingers wanting to attend - are they not getting enough sex elsewhere?

Probably not! But why does that entitle them to anything via clubs/swinging? That's the main problem - they can't satisfy their sexual needs via normal channels so see Internet sites/clubs as a replacement and potential easy solution. Which it sure as hell isn't!

Nobody is forced to spend a penny to enjoy a swinging lifestyle - no element of it is compulsory.

As I said they don't. See the previous response.

Regarding your second point? Who says men are seen as an excess commodity in swinging?

You highlighted it further up in your own quote, acknowledging how many more male swingers there are in the scene than women and couples

I acknowledged the numbers. I never said that single guys are an excess commodity - I'm happy for there to be as many as there currently are (unlike you) as we're more than capable of identifying potentially compatible single males, should we want to meet one (and we've met plenty!) and also avoiding those we feel aren't suited.

Plenty will point out that there are more single males on swinging sites - but since a high percentage of these are looking for 1-2-1 meets with women (not really swinging but there's no reason why they can't choose to do this via this and other sites)

Why shouldn't some struggle? Some women struggle. Some couples struggle. Nobody is entitled to anything. Your statement reeks of entitlement.

You are entirely incorrect, as I've continue pointed out to you many times, on many threads."

Really? When on here as a single male I considered myself equal to everyone else. Many single guys I know feel the same, have no problems meeting and wouldn't be seen dead complaining they're not given an equal chance to women and couples on Fab or in the lifestyle.

As I've pointed out to you many times on many threads.

I do love our differences of opinion though and of course I'm sure many other single guys will agree with you.

Or me.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

http://www.fabswingers.com/forum/clubs/360158

Just to place the club pricing argument as set out by others into the mix.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

Apparently no issues with paying increased membership fees at swingers clubs either.

'Progress' lol

Actually no - but that's a totally different subject that as you know has been covered many, many times before.

And guys don't get this same discount because...?

Erm......if they did then it wouldn't be a discount to encourage under-represented demographics. (Single females/couples)...A flat rate system would imbalance the numbers and provide a client base that would be disproportionate in terms of men vs women/couples.

Then why are there so many more single male swingers wanting to attend - are they not getting enough sex elsewhere?

All of which supports my original premise on single males losing their value perfectly

" Nobody is forced to spend a penny to enjoy a swinging lifestyle - no element of it is compulsory.

As I said they don't. See the previous response."

But they do if they want to participate. Your argument (which you'll deny despite how much your standpoint clearly supports it - as expected) is 'tough shit single guys' which of course, flies in the face of your whole 'everyone has a right to be here' which you so often spout off.

"Regarding your second point? Who says men are seen as an excess commodity in swinging?

You highlighted it further up in your own quote, acknowledging how many more male swingers there are in the scene than women and couples

I acknowledged the numbers. I never said that single guys are an excess commodity"

And so they pay extra for entry into clubs because...?

Why shouldn't some struggle? Some women struggle. Some couples struggle. Nobody is entitled to anything. Your statement reeks of entitlement."

Everyone is entitled to a fair chance, that, as the numbers clearly point out, single males don't get.

You are entirely incorrect, as I've continue pointed out to you many times, on many threads.

Honestly, even when handing over twice the cash couples have to pay for club entry (not even counting membership fees) you felt 'equal'? What an interesting definition of equality.

"As I've pointed out to you many times on many threads."

I don't recall such occasions, but as your argument has no real value behind it, that's not surprising.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's a shame that what is/could have been a semi-interesting discussion is actually a partially-disguised "OMG it's all so unfair" diatribe. Real inequality is about a lot more than ability or otherwise to have sex with people off the internet. Anyone whose main concern in life is this, is living a charmed existence.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Would now be a bad time to mention stacking of dishwashers, which of course is a job which can only be done properly by men!

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By *ere-for-my-convenienceWoman over a year ago

Tenbury Wells

Understand the offside rule

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

Apparently no issues with paying increased membership fees at swingers clubs either.

'Progress' lol

Actually no - but that's a totally different subject that as you know has been covered many, many times before.

And guys don't get this same discount because...?

Then why are there so many more single male swingers wanting to attend - are they not getting enough sex elsewhere?

All of which supports my original premise on single males losing their value perfectly

Some it seems - well one. I've yet to see anyone else complaining of a loss of value or worth.

Nobody is forced to spend a penny to enjoy a swinging lifestyle - no element of it is compulsory.

As I said they don't. See the previous response.

How much more does it cost a single male to meet privately? Or go to a free house party? Or go halves on a hotel? You're focusing purely on clubs which many single males (and women and couples!) don't visit.

Regarding your second point? Who says men are seen as an excess commodity in swinging?

You highlighted it further up in your own quote, acknowledging how many more male swingers there are in the scene than women and couples

I acknowledged the numbers. I never said that single guys are an excess commodity

And so they pay extra for entry into clubs because...?

I'd advise checking in on the other thread Lickety posted the link to as there's plenty of arguments there.

Why shouldn't some struggle? Some women struggle. Some couples struggle. Nobody is entitled to anything. Your statement reeks of entitlement.

Everyone is entitled to a fair chance, that, as the numbers clearly point out, single males don't get.

Everyone has a fair chance - don't you get it? Just because people don't want to meet you doesn't mean you don't have the same chance to interact with people as anyone else! People will meet who they choose to. Including single males. Who do you think all these women looking for men and couples looking for MMF threesomes are meeting? Women in disguise with strap-ons?

You are entirely incorrect, as I've continue pointed out to you many times, on many threads.

Honestly, even when handing over twice the cash couples have to pay for club entry (not even counting membership fees) you felt 'equal'? What an interesting definition of equality.

90% of my meets were in private homes, hotels or at parties - I didn't hand over any cash. When visiting clubs solo I understood the rationale for the price differential and had no complaints. I also often went with female friends - so entered at couples rates (not to save money - I had several single female friends who enjoyed going to clubs with me.) I also worked in a club. So at all times yes - I considered myself equal.

As I've pointed out to you many times on many threads.

I don't recall such occasions, but as your argument has no real value behind it, that's not surprising."

I can't be bothered to go searching threads. But feel free to continue the discussion here. You are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else, including me. If you feel my argument has no value that's your prerogative.

Trust me. The feeling is mutual.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Those that aren't preoccupied with perpetuating a gender image that has been evolving since the cavemen don't seem to have the same issues - it's called change.

And progress.

Apparently no issues with paying increased membership fees at swingers clubs either.

'Progress' lol

Actually no - but that's a totally different subject that as you know has been covered many, many times before.

And guys don't get this same discount because...?

Then why are there so many more single male swingers wanting to attend - are they not getting enough sex elsewhere?

All of which supports my original premise on single males losing their value perfectly

Some it seems - well one. I've yet to see anyone else complaining of a loss of value or worth."

Not seen a single male complaining thread then? Look harder.

Nobody is forced to spend a penny to enjoy a swinging lifestyle - no element of it is compulsory.

As I said they don't. See the previous response.

How much more does it cost a single male to meet privately?"

Very little if he actually manages to get noticed amongst the heaving single male numbers (and individual appeal or personality counts for much less the larger those number become).

"Or go to a free house party?"

Depends on how many guys are there already eh?

" Or go halves on a hotel?"

See above.

" You're focusing purely on clubs which many single males (and women and couples!) don't visit."

And yet you (yes, you've done it MANY times) will typically champion clubs as the best way for a single male to get noticed on any single male complaint thread.

"Regarding your second point? Who says men are seen as an excess commodity in swinging?

You highlighted it further up in your own quote, acknowledging how many more male swingers there are in the scene than women and couples

I acknowledged the numbers. I never said that single guys are an excess commodity

And so they pay extra for entry into clubs because...?

I'd advise checking in on the other thread Lickety posted the link to as there's plenty of arguments there."

But I'm arguing with you here, or are you simply struggling to come up with a non contradictory response?

Why shouldn't some struggle? Some women struggle. Some couples struggle. Nobody is entitled to anything. Your statement reeks of entitlement.

Everyone is entitled to a fair chance, that, as the numbers clearly point out, single males don't get.

Well, I suppose if the number were more even then you may have a point there - but they aren't, and you don't.

You are entirely incorrect, as I've continue pointed out to you many times, on many threads.

Honestly, even when handing over twice the cash couples have to pay for club entry (not even counting membership fees) you felt 'equal'? What an interesting definition of equality.

90% of my meets were in private homes, hotels or at parties - I didn't hand over any cash. When visiting clubs solo I understood the rationale for the price differential and had no complaints."

Oh really - what was that rationale then, as you failed to mention it further up?

"I also often went with female friends - so entered at couples rates (not to save money - I had several single female friends who enjoyed going to clubs with me.) I also worked in a club. So at all times yes - I considered myself equal."

Despite the fact you had to pay more as a single male?

"As I've pointed out to you many times on many threads.

I don't recall such occasions, but as your argument has no real value behind it, that's not surprising.

I can't be bothered to go searching threads."

Ah! Convenient that.

"If you feel my argument has no value that's your prerogative.

Trust me. The feeling is mutual."

As clearly evidenced by the fact that you don't feel the need to air your opinions on every thread I start - oh wait!

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By *afadaoMan over a year ago

Staines

Change the record OP, seriously.

You crowbarred swinging costs into this thread, as you have done before. It's boring.

You don't even go to clubs so why do you care? I'm sure the other fellas can work out for themselves if they want to pay more than women or couples to enter a club.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

There was no crowbarring, higher costs for single male participation in swinging clubs fits in quite nicely on a thread about how little they are valued.

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

I can't be arsed to go through the post and 'quote' each individual point so I'll just summarise my thoughts for you here.

Yes men complain. (So do women and couples!). But I've never seen any stating that due to a website they feel they've lost a sense of worth. If they did I'd say the same. It's a website. Not the be all and end all of life.

Everyone is equal in terms of opportunities to interact with others. The site doesn't offer different levels of service or facilities to different genders. Blaming a lack of perceived 'success' on gender numbers is a cop out and often hides other potential reasons for that lack of 'success' which are linked to the individual. Otherwise nobody would ever meet. But they do.

Club pricing is largely designed to manage gender numbers. Would guys paying cheaper entry fees be happy finding 95% of club guests being men? I doubt it. (Although of course they'd then be able to blame that ratio for any lack of 'success' in the club wouldn't they!). There are also many free nights, socials and special events (I recall inviting you to one recently!) where men are not charged differently to women - these are what I advise men to try to get an experience of clubs if they are unhappy about normal club night charging structures.

I post on many threads. Some of which you express opinions on too. If I quote you or respond to an opinion it's because I have one myself - I have better things to do than go hunting for your contributions.

I get the feeling nothing anyone will ever say will change your _iew of Fab, clubs and swinging in general though - you see everything working against you and that it's the fault of anything but your own personal inputs and actions as the problem. That as I have said before is your prerogative.

Many single men enjoy their time on Fab and swinging in general. It would be great if one day you'd be one of them. But I'd advise you or anyone else who regularly expresses frustration or unhappiness with how things are going to do the same thing - take a step back, or a break and re-evaluate both your approach and your expectations. It's really not healthy to allow something that is meant to be a fun part of life (and a minor part of life too!) to generate any level of discontent.

And on that note - I'm out.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"There was no crowbarring, higher costs for single male participation in swinging clubs fits in quite nicely on a thread about how little they are valued."

The intrinsic worth of a man is devalued because clubs charge them more for business reasons?

I'll remember that one for the VAT on tampons argument.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There was no crowbarring, higher costs for single male participation in swinging clubs fits in quite nicely on a thread about how little they are valued."

How little they are valued in the world, or just in the swinging scene? Because your opening post suggested you were pondering the world at large. Are you seriously suggesting higher prices for male entry to swinging clubs is in any way comparable to some of the inequalities that actually persist in the real world every day?

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman over a year ago

evesham

"There was no crowbarring, higher costs for single male participation in swinging clubs fits in quite nicely on a thread about how little they are valued."

surely if they are paying more they are more valued to the clubs as more revenue per person

if you are basing worth on success at fucking i think there are deeper issues tbh

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Deception is afoot

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By *yrdwomanWoman over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"There was no crowbarring, higher costs for single male participation in swinging clubs fits in quite nicely on a thread about how little they are valued.

The problem with some people is that they perceive their worth in relation to taking something away from others. I see this sort of thing on forums and websites all the time - women are taking mens jobs, therefore what will men do?

There's plenty of stuff to do out there for all of us.

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By *afadaoMan over a year ago

Staines

"There was no crowbarring, higher costs for single male participation in swinging clubs fits in quite nicely on a thread about how little they are valued."

Of all the first world examples you might be able to give about how men are not valued and you choose swinging clubs. Again.

You've got form.

And it wasn't crowbarred? Not much.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This thread.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There was no crowbarring, higher costs for single male participation in swinging clubs fits in quite nicely on a thread about how little they are valued.

There's plenty of stuff to do out there for all of us."

That I get...(although completely disagree with, obviously) but in this instance I can't even see what's perceived to have been taken away.

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By *yrdwomanWoman over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"There was no crowbarring, higher costs for single male participation in swinging clubs fits in quite nicely on a thread about how little they are valued.

There's plenty of stuff to do out there for all of us.

That I get...(although completely disagree with, obviously) but in this instance I can't even see what's perceived to have been taken away.

Good point!

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"There was no crowbarring, higher costs for single male participation in swinging clubs fits in quite nicely on a thread about how little they are valued.

There's plenty of stuff to do out there for all of us.

That I get...(although completely disagree with, obviously) but in this instance I can't even see what's perceived to have been taken away.

Nothing has been. If the costs were lower and more single men attended then the issue would be that there are too many single men, thereby devaluing the worth of the "genuine" men.

I said it was a circular argument earlier and all that has changed is the circles are getting smaller.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman over a year ago

evesham

all this quoting between quotes has melted my brain

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"This thread.

I know

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"all this quoting between quotes has melted my brain

Sorry Evie.

You're safe now.

Bath, book and Jaegerbomb for me.

Night all!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Surely its your own self worth that's important.

There isn't that overwhelming belief in being a conformist anymore. people can be anything they choose within limits.

Its wonderful but scary. You have no ridge rules to follow but you are on your own making your own way.

Also no one is worth anything.

Everyone it worth everything.

Just how you look at it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago
Forum Mod

Would one of you lovely men go and put the kettle on please

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By *yrdwomanWoman over a year ago

Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum

"Would one of you lovely men go and put the kettle on please

And while you're in there, make me a sandwich

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 22/02/15 22:12:46]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Men can be penis models women cant

lol

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

OMG so much angst because one guy can't get laid or find a girlfriend!

It really takes a truly spectacular ego to turn that into a claim about the worth of all men in first world countries.

OP, you have the same opportunities as anyone else. You get noticed just fine. Any lack of success you have in getting meets is not because you don't get noticed.

To get meets people actually have to want to meet you. If that's not the case, you aren't going to get meets no matter what.

Also, as an aside, personally I'd like to see all clubs charge the same for everyone for a couple of months and not limit numbers. I'd love to see how long it took for the first guys to claim they were ripped off, not because they paid more than anyone else but because there were only single men in the club.

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By *ittle_brat_evie!!Woman over a year ago

evesham

"all this quoting between quotes has melted my brain

Sorry Evie."

its ok

"You're safe now."

thank god for that

"Bath, book and Jaegerbomb for me."

enjoy

"Night all! "

g'night

"A"

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"all this quoting between quotes has melted my brain

Sorry Evie.

its ok

You're safe now.

thank god for that

Bath, book and Jaegerbomb for me.

enjoy

Night all!

g'night

I see what you did there Evie!!

Only another 17 posts to close this one.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"OP, you have the same opportunities as anyone else. You get noticed just fine. Any lack of success you have in getting meets is not because you don't get noticed.

To get meets people actually have to want to meet you."

Ouch

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

"OP, you have the same opportunities as anyone else. You get noticed just fine. Any lack of success you have in getting meets is not because you don't get noticed.

To get meets people actually have to want to meet you.

Ouch

Is there a Thing One and do you do a double act?

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"Everyone is entitled to a fair chance, that, as the numbers clearly point out, single males don't get.

Well, I suppose if the number were more even then you may have a point there - but they aren't, and you don't."

What do the numbers have to do with it? The rules are the same for all single men. You all have an equal chance.

There are women and couples on here looking for and meeting single men so the site clearly works for some.

Everybody has the same tools and chances available as those for whom the site works.

What exactly does this "fair chance" men "deserve" mean? Even with a 1:1 ratio of women to men I think there would be a lot of men not getting laid. It's not solely about numbers. It's about appealing to the people you want to meet. If you can't do that, you could be the only man on here and still not get a meet.

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

"OP, you have the same opportunities as anyone else. You get noticed just fine. Any lack of success you have in getting meets is not because you don't get noticed.

To get meets people actually have to want to meet you.

Ouch

True though, right?

I've been turned down by guys before and I'm pretty sure it was because they didn't want to meet me rather than being anything to do with the number of women on here, whether women have value in society, how many days there were in the month, the rainfall that day in Outer Mongolia or sun spot activity.

I'd love it not to be that they didn't fancy me but I have to put my big girl pants on and face it.

Really, if not getting laid as much as I want is the only thing I have to worry about, I'd consider myself bloody fortunate.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"OP, you have the same opportunities as anyone else. You get noticed just fine. Any lack of success you have in getting meets is not because you don't get noticed.

To get meets people actually have to want to meet you.

Ouch

Is there a Thing One and do you do a double act?

Have you never read Cat in the Hat?

"in this box are two things

i will show to you now.