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Greece Sunday's Election
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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The left wing party of Greece looks like it will be elected on Sunday.
The platform is a true left wing manifesto which promises and end to a poverty and a health service that can afford basic health care.
The German Chancellor has urged a vote for the centre left which supports the EU imposed austerity programme. Is this a step too far in influencing a state election? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If the left win, they will default on the loan, they will more than likely be booted out of the EU because of it, personally, they should never have been allowed in the EU club in the first place, the books were fiddled and the EU club overlooked a vast amount of things to let them in. Lots of egg on a lot of faces come Monday. Hopefully this will be the beginning of the end of the EU, we pay billions and get very little, if anything, out of it. The UK sold goods into Europe before the club opened, we will still be selling goods into Europe long after the club has closed, with far less cost and red tape than we do now. |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
A very silly manifesto,they can never end poverty in Greece as the country has no natural resources.
The Greeks where rich before they started trying to become like the rest of Europe.They where rich in quality of life.
Something in Western Europe we have forgotten about.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The left wing party of Greece looks like it will be elected on Sunday.
The platform is a true left wing manifesto which promises and end to a poverty and a health service that can afford basic health care.
The German Chancellor has urged a vote for the centre left which supports the EU imposed austerity programme. Is this a step too far in influencing a state election?"
.Look at the king with his grand clothing  .
Lol the eu is finished, it's a dead financial goose that's going to lay the golden egg of chaos.
I like the way people cling to stuff in the belief that what they know is better than what they don't know!.
Those printing presses are running again just keep printing, it will all be fine in the end. Not |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Wonder if the silent elephant in the election could be the Golden dawn party"
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No it will be most likely an unlikely alliance between their ukip and their socialist party as they both want the same thing.
Which is to say a big fuck you to the eu |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Syriza looks to be a very credible party committed to protecting and improving public services, while finding ways to repay to repay the debt without the people suffering.
And if the polls favorite actually win the election. This is going to help increase the support for Podemos another social left party in the Spanish elections in 2016 or 17, I can't remember when. |
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"A very silly manifesto,they can never end poverty in Greece as the country has no natural resources.
The Greeks where rich before they started trying to become like the rest of Europe.They where rich in quality of life.
Something in Western Europe we have forgotten about.."
They have got a fucking big army though!!!!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Hopefully it will be the beginning of the end to the whole eu experiment. Something we never voted for in the first place, and has now become a dictatorship. As a previous poster has said, we sold goods in Europe prior to the eu and would continue to do so, either way. We are told it is our biggest trading partner, but that's only because we are told by the eu, who we can and can't trade with, worldwide. Hopefully the Greeks will be hailed as heroes in years to come after the whole sorry mess has disintegrated. If I tried to run a company that has never had its accounts signed off for many years, I would be facing court action.
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"The left wing party of Greece looks like it will be elected on Sunday.
The platform is a true left wing manifesto which promises and end to a poverty and a health service that can afford basic health care.
The German Chancellor has urged a vote for the centre left which supports the EU imposed austerity programme. Is this a step too far in influencing a state election?"
Promises? Hmmm
If they default, they will be lent no more cash. Without the cash how will they fulfil their dream, or even pay the wages of the bloated public service that is voting for them.
Yes they will win, but yes they will renege on all their promises.
Already been here with Italy.
I know what you're saying about Germany, but England and Scotland keep trying to affect each others electorate too!
Mr ddc |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"The left wing party of Greece looks like it will be elected on Sunday.
The platform is a true left wing manifesto which promises and end to a poverty and a health service that can afford basic health care.
The German Chancellor has urged a vote for the centre left which supports the EU imposed austerity programme. Is this a step too far in influencing a state election?"
Pledging to end austerity and suggesting that a portion of EU debt will be written off is a pretty silly thing to say. Greece needs EU funds to survive on a day to day basis and those funds are dependant on pre agreed austerity cuts to public spending. Breech the terms of the bailout and the money stops which means that Greece will not have enough money to keep the state running - state employees won't get paid, widespread dissatisfaction and the polar opposite of the intended consequences. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The left wing party of Greece looks like it will be elected on Sunday.
The platform is a true left wing manifesto which promises and end to a poverty and a health service that can afford basic health care.
The German Chancellor has urged a vote for the centre left which supports the EU imposed austerity programme. Is this a step too far in influencing a state election?
Promises? Hmmm
If they default, they will be lent no more cash. Without the cash how will they fulfil their dream, or even pay the wages of the bloated public service that is voting for them.
Yes they will win, but yes they will renege on all their promises.
Already been here with Italy.
I know what you're saying about Germany, but England and Scotland keep trying to affect each others electorate too!
Mr ddc"
You make a good point on the matter all politicians over look and that is cash flow. The EU central bank has decided to print one trillion euros to assist with the issue of deflation. If Greece bail out now it would be madness. The left know that and in recent weeks have moderated their tone towards the EU! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The left wing party of Greece looks like it will be elected on Sunday.
The platform is a true left wing manifesto which promises and end to a poverty and a health service that can afford basic health care.
The German Chancellor has urged a vote for the centre left which supports the EU imposed austerity programme. Is this a step too far in influencing a state election?
Pledging to end austerity and suggesting that a portion of EU debt will be written off is a pretty silly thing to say. Greece needs EU funds to survive on a day to day basis and those funds are dependant on pre agreed austerity cuts to public spending. Breech the terms of the bailout and the money stops which means that Greece will not have enough money to keep the state running - state employees won't get paid, widespread dissatisfaction and the polar opposite of the intended consequences."
Totally agree see my post below yours. I do not agree with the Quantitative Easing policy as we Europeans never learn that printing money will solve nothing. I am afraid it has to be a money supply solution through taxation in my view |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The left wing party of Greece looks like it will be elected on Sunday.
The platform is a true left wing manifesto which promises and end to a poverty and a health service that can afford basic health care.
The German Chancellor has urged a vote for the centre left which supports the EU imposed austerity programme. Is this a step too far in influencing a state election?
Pledging to end austerity and suggesting that a portion of EU debt will be written off is a pretty silly thing to say. Greece needs EU funds to survive on a day to day basis and those funds are dependant on pre agreed austerity cuts to public spending. Breech the terms of the bailout and the money stops which means that Greece will not have enough money to keep the state running - state employees won't get paid, widespread dissatisfaction and the polar opposite of the intended consequences.Totally agree see my post below yours. I do not agree with the Quantitative Easing policy as we Europeans never learn that printing money will solve nothing. I am afraid it has to be a money supply solution through taxation in my view "
.We Europeans?.
Last time I looked the yanks had done more QE than Europe.
The financial system is fucked, everyone knows it.
Where do you go when you've got 0%interest rates, you print billions ,you bail out every financial institution and you still can't breath life into it.
Has it actually occurred to anyone that it's just dying.  |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
Interesting days ahead if this is true
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30975437
"Exit polls suggest a historic victory for the anti-austerity Syriza party in Greece's closely fought general election...." |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Interesting days ahead if this is true
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30975437
"Exit polls suggest a historic victory for the anti-austerity Syriza party in Greece's closely fought general election....""
It will be interesting to see how the EU deals with it? |
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"
The Greeks where rich before they started trying to become like the rest of Europe.They where rich in quality of life."
perhaps but how much of that quality of life was financially sustainable given some of the conditions of service for a lot of their public sector.. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
There is a theory that the Greeks had the perfect market economy before the Euro. They paid only enough to sustain basic government services and in doing so kept more of their own taxes to spend in the wider economy.
Unfortunately the Euro and plentiful supply of finding from Brussels set the train on the road to financial ruin.
It seems that promises being made by the "new" government are totally at odds with the continued membership of the EU.
Don't book that Greek holiday just yet, it may soon become an awful lot cheaper. I see only a collapsing Euro and a new and almost worthless Drachma resulting from this.
David Cameron will still get blamed by some though. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"
The Greeks where rich before they started trying to become like the rest of Europe.They where rich in quality of life.
Something in Western Europe we have forgotten about.."
You are right.... But it's easier to have that quality of life when your state retirement age was 52 rather than 65 like the rest of Europe |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Don't book that Greek holiday just yet, it may soon become an awful lot cheaper. I see only a collapsing Euro and a new and almost worthless Drachma resulting from this.
David Cameron will still get blamed by some though."
Yep, i can see holidays IN Greece becoming good value again.
Such a shame that the level of flight and departure taxes ( thanks Gordon Brown, you cunt) are so high, highest in the civilised world i believe.
Democracy in action. The majority of Greeks would rather by run by elected officials than the self serving corrupt unelected Euro bods.
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Ok, so they default on the loan and leave the Euro. Right, where will they get the money to run their public services and pay the pensioners? Unemployment benefits and social housing? Health care?
Due to a corrupt political system where will the tax revenue come from to pay for it all? Not enough wealth is generated in Greece to fund their commitments and from now on no one will lend to them.
They're cheering now. Will they be in 6 months time? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ok, so they default on the loan and leave the Euro. Right, where will they get the money to run their public services and pay the pensioners? Unemployment benefits and social housing? Health care?
Due to a corrupt political system where will the tax revenue come from to pay for it all? Not enough wealth is generated in Greece to fund their commitments and from now on no one will lend to them.
They're cheering now. Will they be in 6 months time?"
Here, claiming our benefits? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ok, so they default on the loan and leave the Euro. Right, where will they get the money to run their public services and pay the pensioners? Unemployment benefits and social housing? Health care?
Due to a corrupt political system where will the tax revenue come from to pay for it all? Not enough wealth is generated in Greece to fund their commitments and from now on no one will lend to them.
They're cheering now. Will they be in 6 months time?"
.
What an exceedingly worthless currency does, is force you to live on your two feet because you can no longer but other peoples goods, so you become an export only economy!.
You export your best labour your brains your money your assets... Eventually your forced to sell your family silver (land, institutions, buildings) or (live like Cuba)and put your hand out for IMF credit swaps (ha that's a joke in its own right). Whereupon the world family of corporations rape you for all your worth.
It's nothing new we've been doing it to the third world for years (why do you think they stay third world) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Going to be a bumpy day in the markets tomorrow. Ultimately money talks, the yield on Greek debt will go through the roof, the Euro will tumble against other major currencies and EU bureaucrats will be changing their underwear on an hourly basis. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Going to be a bumpy day in the markets tomorrow. Ultimately money talks, the yield on Greek debt will go through the roof, the Euro will tumble against other major currencies and EU bureaucrats will be changing their underwear on an hourly basis."
.
Last week Switzerland pulled out of the franc from the euro.
Three days later the eu announces a trillion euro QE.
Today Greece votes against the run.
You don't think the three stories were connected to do you!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Going to be a bumpy day in the markets tomorrow. Ultimately money talks, the yield on Greek debt will go through the roof, the Euro will tumble against other major currencies and EU bureaucrats will be changing their underwear on an hourly basis..
Last week Switzerland pulled out of the franc from the euro.
Three days later the eu announces a trillion euro QE.
Today Greece votes against the run.
You don't think the three stories were connected to do you!! "
Not sure I understand the comment, but Swiss saw the shit hitting the fan so decided against supporting a value against the Euro which was unsustainable. The Greeks can't stand being controlled by the Germans as they see it, so I predict an ugly separation discussion until they realise without German cash they are buggered! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Going to be a bumpy day in the markets tomorrow. Ultimately money talks, the yield on Greek debt will go through the roof, the Euro will tumble against other major currencies and EU bureaucrats will be changing their underwear on an hourly basis..
Last week Switzerland pulled out of the franc from the euro.
Three days later the eu announces a trillion euro QE.
Today Greece votes against the run.
You don't think the three stories were connected to do you!!
Not sure I understand the comment, but Swiss saw the shit hitting the fan so decided against supporting a value against the Euro which was unsustainable. The Greeks can't stand being controlled by the Germans as they see it, so I predict an ugly separation discussion until they realise without German cash they are buggered!"
.
You missed out the fact that Germany has also got disillusioned with bailing out there Latin friends. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The point was the EU were well aware which way the Greeks were going long before the election.
I think the ultra wealthy are also aware of which way the general tide is going! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Going to be a bumpy day in the markets tomorrow. Ultimately money talks, the yield on Greek debt will go through the roof, the Euro will tumble against other major currencies and EU bureaucrats will be changing their underwear on an hourly basis."
The Greeks will call the EU's(Germany's) bluff, the Germans will renegotiate terms the Greeks won't have to pare down to the bone any further and they can all claim a victory |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
I am watching this news coverage with some degree of confusion. Wild celebration in Athens and people looking really happy for themselves as if they have made a great decision.
I wonder how I will feel tomorrow if I wake up having decided to tell the Nationwide Building Society that I am restructuring my mortgage with them and tell them that they need to write off a big chunk of it. I am sure that they will let me do this especially as it will set such a great precedent for everyone else to do the same.
I reckon I might feel quite pleased with myself until the reality of the world that exists outside my home sets in. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It's a bit techy, but Greece's continued failure to move to implement proper international accounting standards really signalled they're not serious about addressing corruption, lack of fiscal transparency and proper government accounting.
As I understand it, this party is going to have to form a coalition, possibly with a far right wing party form a majority. Sounds like a recipe for sensible decision making. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Nationwide aren't in the habit of repossessing countries though are they, the Greeks say "we haven't got your money" the Germans say "them we shall send in the bailiffs to recover goods to the sum of"? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Nationwide aren't in the habit of repossessing countries though are they, the Greeks say "we haven't got your money" the Germans say "them we shall send in the bailiffs to recover goods to the sum of"?"
Maybe not but the loss of credit rating will cause even greater problems. |
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By *andS66Couple
over a year ago
Derby |
"I am watching this news coverage with some degree of confusion. Wild celebration in Athens and people looking really happy for themselves as if they have made a great decision.
I wonder how I will feel tomorrow if I wake up having decided to tell the Nationwide Building Society that I am restructuring my mortgage with them and tell them that they need to write off a big chunk of it. I am sure that they will let me do this especially as it will set such a great precedent for everyone else to do the same.
I reckon I might feel quite pleased with myself until the reality of the world that exists outside my home sets in."
Look at it the other way.... what if your building society turned round to you and took 20% of your money for no reason other than they needed it to bail them out? that's what happened in Cyprus, and that's a precedent... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The Greeks are between two rocks.
A debt they can NEVER pay off or defaulting and facing years of struggle importing anything necessary!.
Either way their fucked and will never again have the way of life they had.
It's a problem we'll all face in the end and it looks like once again the Greeks will have to show us the way! |
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By *oxesMan
over a year ago
Southend, Essex |
"If the left win, they will default on the loan, they will more than likely be booted out of the EU because of it, personally, they should never have been allowed in the EU club in the first place, the books were fiddled and the EU club overlooked a vast amount of things to let them in. Lots of egg on a lot of faces come Monday. Hopefully this will be the beginning of the end of the EU, we pay billions and get very little, if anything, out of it. The UK sold goods into Europe before the club opened, we will still be selling goods into Europe long after the club has closed, with far less cost and red tape than we do now."
Well they do nothing except. Pay 2/3 of a benefits system, pays the wages of the job center staff. Runs regional development agencies since the torries cut it. If you were to get stranded in an EU country then the airline you flew with is forced by EU law to put you up in a hotel. Standardised measures across industry, increases trade amongst member nations, since the life time of the it has kept 100billion pounds worth of trade with inside the UK that would have otherwise bugged off elsewhere. Freedom of movement so you can go on holidays to Spain for instance without a visa. Health and safety laws, enshrined freedom of expression, cort of human rights, if you think that you the verdict was unfair, they recognise national minorities like whales , and britony, preserve their culture and fund the culteral education. Systems. Interpol. Who has tackled head and done more criminal off our streets someone arrested by interpol gets deported back to there home country with no penny of the UK purse to paid to get rid of them, tackling and funding anti terroh programmes. Funding spec forces in tackling drugs before they enter the UK. Like they did Albania where they went to war effectively burning hillsides of cannabis crops and tacking out the rebel and druglords military cappabillitie . Eu widecstats . Education programs abroad for UK students, systems to Improve and try and standardise uni education. Increasing unis across European nations to share reaserch . University funding, prevents EU nations going to war with one another by tacking industry out of the nations. Industry mainly oil production and exploitain, food and money are 3 big guest things an army to go to war. Oh 80% of our .minor laws come from the EU so not much really lol. |
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By *oxesMan
over a year ago
Southend, Essex |
"Syriza looks to be a very credible party committed to protecting and improving public services, while finding ways to repay to repay the debt without the people suffering.
And if the polls favorite actually win the election. This is going to help increase the support for Podemos another social left party in the Spanish elections in 2016 or 17, I can't remember when."
They had a every makcist tone a few years back. If they do win it would be interesting to see if they keep Greece a democracy. However i think Greece will fracture between liberals the communists and the fashists in 2013 a man was arrested to targeting and killing 3 members of golden dawn. He subsiwuently charged with terrorism offences, murder and he had his membership of surisa revoked. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"As a few examples above show the EU does more for us than many people realise."
.
You missed being undemocratic and wasteful.
I hate to point this out but all those things can be achieved without having a huge federal government.
Brics is a massive trade agreement by five countries and didn't need a federal governing body |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Syriza looks to be a very credible party committed to protecting and improving public services, while finding ways to repay to repay the debt without the people suffering.
And if the polls favorite actually win the election. This is going to help increase the support for Podemos another social left party in the Spanish elections in 2016 or 17, I can't remember when.
They had a every makcist tone a few years back. If they do win it would be interesting to see if they keep Greece a democracy. However i think Greece will fracture between liberals the communists and the fashists in 2013 a man was arrested to targeting and killing 3 members of golden dawn. He subsiwuently charged with terrorism offences, murder and he had his membership of surisa revoked."
.
What's wrong with a Marxist tone. I consider myself slightly Marxist. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ireaky think Greece will go to civil war. That will be EU's greatest faliour it prevented war across members states not within them."
.
That wouldn't surprise me.
But the eu pumping money into counties to stop civil wars or inter country wars is not actually a solution to an inherently unstable society. |
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By *oxesMan
over a year ago
Southend, Essex |
"Syriza looks to be a very credible party committed to protecting and improving public services, while finding ways to repay to repay the debt without the people suffering.
And if the polls favorite actually win the election. This is going to help increase the support for Podemos another social left party in the Spanish elections in 2016 or 17, I can't remember when.
They had a every makcist tone a few years back. If they do win it would be interesting to see if they keep Greece a democracy. However i think Greece will fracture between liberals the communists and the fashists in 2013 a man was arrested to targeting and killing 3 members of golden dawn. He subsiwuently charged with terrorism offences, murder and he had his membership of surisa revoked..
What's wrong with a Marxist tone. I consider myself slightly Marxist."
There is nothing wrong with communisun it works in theory but unless dub chech or chin ease style communism is employed then inhibits freedom. also with the exception of recent developments Cuba communist States tend to be undemocratic. |
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By *oxesMan
over a year ago
Southend, Essex |
"Ireaky think Greece will go to civil war. That will be EU's greatest faliour it prevented war across members states not within them..
That wouldn't surprise me.
But the eu pumping money into counties to stop civil wars or inter country wars is not actually a solution to an inherently unstable society."
That's quite a valid point. Similar to what the EU are doing g with the Ukraine. |
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By *oxesMan
over a year ago
Southend, Essex |
"As a few examples above show the EU does more for us than many people realise..
You missed being undemocratic and wasteful.
I hate to point this out but all those things can be achieved without having a huge federal government.
Brics is a massive trade agreement by five countries and didn't need a federal governing body"
Well you and the rest of the 93% of EU citizens had the chance to vote in the EU election.
I really wish we got the chance to elect the head of the EU. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Syriza looks to be a very credible party committed to protecting and improving public services, while finding ways to repay to repay the debt without the people suffering.
And if the polls favorite actually win the election. This is going to help increase the support for Podemos another social left party in the Spanish elections in 2016 or 17, I can't remember when.
They had a every makcist tone a few years back. If they do win it would be interesting to see if they keep Greece a democracy. However i think Greece will fracture between liberals the communists and the fashists in 2013 a man was arrested to targeting and killing 3 members of golden dawn. He subsiwuently charged with terrorism offences, murder and he had his membership of surisa revoked..
What's wrong with a Marxist tone. I consider myself slightly Marxist.
There is nothing wrong with communisun it works in theory but unless dub chech or chin ease style communism is employed then inhibits freedom. also with the exception of recent developments Cuba communist States tend to be undemocratic."
.
Marx just predicted that eventually capitalism would create socialism though the inherently inequitable system.
I've got no problems with "the state" owning everything after all we are the state.
I'd like it to be democratic and open much more open then today, but having we the people owning the profit instead of small bunch of families seems quite feasible with a moderate change in human behaviour |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ireaky think Greece will go to civil war. That will be EU's greatest faliour it prevented war across members states not within them..
That wouldn't surprise me.
But the eu pumping money into counties to stop civil wars or inter country wars is not actually a solution to an inherently unstable society.
That's quite a valid point. Similar to what the EU are doing g with the Ukraine."
.
The Ukraine is a pawn in the great game of power between Russia and the west.
Neither of them actually care about Ukrainians |
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By *oxesMan
over a year ago
Southend, Essex |
"Cold war mach 2 as Gorbachev put it..
It's more of a financial war these days.
I think the real problems will start after the financial side collapses"
The financial side has collapsed that's what is allowing the exyream parties the leavrrege in elections as people get desperate. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Cold war mach 2 as Gorbachev put it..
It's more of a financial war these days.
I think the real problems will start after the financial side collapses
The financial side has collapsed that's what is allowing the exyream parties the leavrrege in elections as people get desperate. "
.
No I don't think they've quite collapsed yet, the eu can still manage a trillion euro QE 0% interest rates, what will come after the market stops them from doing that is a different matter. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
The socialist never tire in their message that the financial system is close to collapse because capitalism cannot be sustained. Interestingly, that same thought is what brought an extreme form of socialism (communism) to parts of the world in the 1950's. The great socialist ideology failed and every one of those countries except Cuba has abandoned communism and even Cuba is now flirting again with the US.
The socialist message is tired, old and worn out. It reminds of the guy who used to stand outside Old Trafford when I was a teenager with a sandwich board saying that the end was nigh. Oddly enough, just before Christmas I was at Old Trafford again - 40 years later and someone was wearing the same sandwich board.
Capitalism is not coming to end. But Marxism and Communism is dead. It was tried across the world and failed because all it ever did was take the wealth from a minority and retain it amongst an even smaller minority whilst everyone else remained equally poor. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"Nationwide aren't in the habit of repossessing countries though are they, the Greeks say "we haven't got your money" the Germans say "them we shall send in the bailiffs to recover goods to the sum of"?"
The bailout loans don't quite work that way... Lol
The bailout money is given on the basis that conditions are met... So it given on a monthly or quarterly basis
So rather than the Greeks being given the money, other countries would just refuse to give it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Your right in your historical analysis but your wrong in your maths and science
It's a mathematical impossibility let alone an ecological impossibility for the current parameters of capitalism to continue forever.
I hold socialist ideology, I don't hold out for any communist ideology, I also am a realist and realise that in an ever changing world nothing ever stays constant... Not even capitalism |
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By *oxesMan
over a year ago
Southend, Essex |
too Hot made the incorrect assumption that. If your a socialist then you are undemocratic or not a capitalist.
you are right to a certain extent things cannot go on forever. Capitalism and communism are in practice inherently unfair. It is not a matter of what is right out of the two systems but what provides the fairest most democratic system.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
The bailout loans don't quite work that way... Lol
The bailout money is given on the basis that conditions are met... So it given on a monthly or quarterly basis
So rather than the Greeks being given the money, other countries would just refuse to give it "
They work exactly like that..."lol"
€4.3bn of debt repayments due in March. More than €6bn due in July and August. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"too Hot made the incorrect assumption that. If your a socialist then you are undemocratic or not a capitalist.
you are right to a certain extent things cannot go on forever. Capitalism and communism are in practice inherently unfair. It is not a matter of what is right out of the two systems but what provides the fairest most democratic system.
"
Some are blinded by the light and some are guided by it |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"too Hot made the incorrect assumption that. If your a socialist then you are undemocratic or not a capitalist.
you are right to a certain extent things cannot go on forever. Capitalism and communism are in practice inherently unfair. It is not a matter of what is right out of the two systems but what provides the fairest most democratic system.
"
You should not assume something by reading a bit of text and deciding that it means something other than what it says.
No-one has said socialism is undemocratic bust as for socialists not being capitalists - I thought that is obvious? No need for assumption at all. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"too Hot made the incorrect assumption that. If your a socialist then you are undemocratic or not a capitalist.
you are right to a certain extent things cannot go on forever. Capitalism and communism are in practice inherently unfair. It is not a matter of what is right out of the two systems but what provides the fairest most democratic system.
You should not assume something by reading a bit of text and deciding that it means something other than what it says.
No-one has said socialism is undemocratic bust as for socialists not being capitalists - I thought that is obvious? No need for assumption at all."
.
Socialism is about the ownership of the capital and therefore the profit!.
The argument is about whether it's more efficient and equitable to be socialistic or individualistic.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The socialist never tire in their message that the financial system is close to collapse because capitalism cannot be sustained. Interestingly, that same thought is what brought an extreme form of socialism (communism) to parts of the world in the 1950's. The great socialist ideology failed and every one of those countries except Cuba has abandoned communism and even Cuba is now flirting again with the US.
The socialist message is tired, old and worn out. It reminds of the guy who used to stand outside Old Trafford when I was a teenager with a sandwich board saying that the end was nigh. Oddly enough, just before Christmas I was at Old Trafford again - 40 years later and someone was wearing the same sandwich board.
Capitalism is not coming to end. But Marxism and Communism is dead. It was tried across the world and failed because all it ever did was take the wealth from a minority and retain it amongst an even smaller minority whilst everyone else remained equally poor."
.
Your beliefs are all driven from your personal experiences, that's a human trait but often leads to the wrong conclusion.
I like your positivity that capitalism isn't coming to an end I just don't see the evidence that it's succeeding or thriving.
I remember a few years back the same positivity, saying lehmans wouldn't go burst and rbs couldn't go bust then they said Freddie Mac and Frannie mae couldn't go bust and then they told me that aig couldn't go bust or that 0% interest would be temporary or that no decent economy would ever think about printing money Willy nilly, they told me that commodities would never run scarce, that the no summer sea ice was a temporary anomalie, they said the north American winter last year was a once in a lifetime occurrence and the same about Katrina, they said the driest year on record in Texas was a fluke and they said the wettest year on record in Texas the very next year was an even bigger fluke, they said nuclear energy was perfectly safe and then we had Chernobyl but not to worry that could never happen in a developed country and then we had Fukushima, but not to worry they say it will never happen here!.
They say we'll find another oil soon and electric cars are the future! And that the world can just keep on giving.
An old guy down the road told me when he was young you could catch boat loads of fish in exmouth harbour, then you had to start rowing out a bit further now you have to go out in the middle of the ocean but not to worry they say the fish will restock themselves if we apply quotas.
Yeah they say alot with positivity I just don't see the evidence that it's working. |
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Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Greece is not evidence that capitalism is bust. Its net debt is less than 20% of GDP, if it was measured properly according to international public sector accounting standards. Much less than most European governments' net debt position.
Greece has problems, absolutely, not least that the markets have no confidence in it, in part because of the outdated, opaque and corrupt government accounting that goes on.
Defaulting on the debt, if that's what happens, is not going to help this situation at all. Commitment to getting the finances in a clear and transparent state would go a long way in negotiations to try and relieve some of the austerity measures, but that doesn't make a particularly crowd-inspiring message. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!"
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"The socialist never tire in their message that the financial system is close to collapse because capitalism cannot be sustained. Interestingly, that same thought is what brought an extreme form of socialism (communism) to parts of the world in the 1950's. The great socialist ideology failed and every one of those countries except Cuba has abandoned communism and even Cuba is now flirting again with the US.
The socialist message is tired, old and worn out. It reminds of the guy who used to stand outside Old Trafford when I was a teenager with a sandwich board saying that the end was nigh. Oddly enough, just before Christmas I was at Old Trafford again - 40 years later and someone was wearing the same sandwich board.
Capitalism is not coming to end. But Marxism and Communism is dead. It was tried across the world and failed because all it ever did was take the wealth from a minority and retain it amongst an even smaller minority whilst everyone else remained equally poor..
Your beliefs are all driven from your personal experiences, that's a human trait but often leads to the wrong conclusion.
I like your positivity that capitalism isn't coming to an end I just don't see the evidence that it's succeeding or thriving.
I remember a few years back the same positivity, saying lehmans wouldn't go burst and rbs couldn't go bust then they said Freddie Mac and Frannie mae couldn't go bust and then they told me that aig couldn't go bust or that 0% interest would be temporary or that no decent economy would ever think about printing money Willy nilly, they told me that commodities would never run scarce, that the no summer sea ice was a temporary anomalie, they said the north American winter last year was a once in a lifetime occurrence and the same about Katrina, they said the driest year on record in Texas was a fluke and they said the wettest year on record in Texas the very next year was an even bigger fluke, they said nuclear energy was perfectly safe and then we had Chernobyl but not to worry that could never happen in a developed country and then we had Fukushima, but not to worry they say it will never happen here!.
They say we'll find another oil soon and electric cars are the future! And that the world can just keep on giving.
An old guy down the road told me when he was young you could catch boat loads of fish in exmouth harbour, then you had to start rowing out a bit further now you have to go out in the middle of the ocean but not to worry they say the fish will restock themselves if we apply quotas.
Yeah they say alot with positivity I just don't see the evidence that it's working. "
Look at the country our parents lived in the 1970's and look at it today. Look at the country our grandparents lived in the 1950's and compare that to what our parents had and what we now have. Society has improved significantly decade on decade. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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*Look at the country our parents lived in the 1970's and look at it today. Look at the country our grandparents lived in the 1950's and compare that to what our parents had and what we now have. Society has improved significantly decade on decade.*
While we have gained on one hand I think we have lost on the other. Do you believe that standards are better in our education system today? Do we still have the same sense of community and family? Do we have more or less social apartheid? Seems the more we seemingly progress, the more we stay the same. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself."
.
Erm no their borrowing money elsewhere and using that to repay the IMF, they haven't actually saved the money up from austerity measures like you seem to be suggesting.
All the austerity measures have done is allow the markets to say they can afford repayments on their debt... Not that they can pay the debt back!
The fact that each person in Ireland is paying 9000 Euros in bail out costs compared to only 175 in Germany proves the eu is not exactly one harmoniums place yet!.
And Greece is even worse, they couldn't pay that debt back if they had austerity for the next 100 years.
Yes they might be able to restructure their debt to afford the repayments with cheaper interest.
But there you see is the difference between household economics and state economics.
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself."
Not voluntarily at all. My pay packet is robbed every week with bullshit taxes and charges imposed by our puppet government so to claim that the people of Ireland are voluntarily paying for the reckless gambling of bankers who got off scot free is well wide of the mark!! |
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself.
Not voluntarily at all. My pay packet is robbed every week with bullshit taxes and charges imposed by our puppet government so to claim that the people of Ireland are voluntarily paying for the reckless gambling of bankers who got off scot free is well wide of the mark!!"
point of clarification it wasn't the bankers according to some on here, it was all down to the 2 Ed's..
probably even in your country..
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"one would like to think the new Government in Greece have a plan b..
"
.
Plan A
If I owed you a hundred quid and I told you to shove it, you might be tempted to get angry and take me to court in an attempt to get your money back, or just think fuck it I won't lend him a hundred again.
If I owed you 65 billion and told you to shove it, you might be more likely to remain friendly in the hope you might at least get some of the money back.
Plan b
I fuck all the debt off and start again with no debt and all the austerity that was being forced upon me anyway.
Plan c
We all emigrate |
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surely any country with that sort of debt saying fuck off we aint paying will after being booted out of the 'club' find itself with no one wanting to lend it funds to continue..
unless at off the scale worse than wonga type rates or open to countries like China etc who will 'invest/exploit' which may be worse in the long run..
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself.
Not voluntarily at all. My pay packet is robbed every week with bullshit taxes and charges imposed by our puppet government so to claim that the people of Ireland are voluntarily paying for the reckless gambling of bankers who got off scot free is well wide of the mark!!
point of clarification it wasn't the bankers according to some on here, it was all down to the 2 Ed's..
probably even in your country..
"
.
When I said capitalism is failing they never mention the banks!, they just tell me it's socialism, then they tell me socialism died in the 70s and capitalism is the way forward.
 .
The fact of the matter is capitalism is failing through market forces, anyone with half a brain can see that it doesn't matter who's in power, Christ the yanks had their most right wing Republican government in a generation in power for 8 years when the banks failed.
It's not political failure!. It's fundamentally broken, it was broken 50 years ago they've just used globalisation to patch over the cracks.
Were spending more and more of our capital on %gdp on getting energy and resources.
This has been known about and forecast for years.
They just don't know how to fix it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"surely any country with that sort of debt saying fuck off we aint paying will after being booted out of the 'club' find itself with no one wanting to lend it funds to continue..
unless at off the scale worse than wonga type rates or open to countries like China etc who will 'invest/exploit' which may be worse in the long run..
"
.
You'd think so wouldn't yer.
If you go bankrupt today owing 50 grand on your credit card, you'd think you'd never get one given to you again!!
It's common sense, finance doesn't do common sense unfortunately |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The problem is that for living memory Greeks have all dodged taxes from top to bottom, retired far too early on generous state pensions and have for decades lived entirely on the tourist pound.
They should never have bern allowed into EU or the Euro as they met NONE of the conditions. Their membership was fiddled mainly by Germany who will, quite rightly, suffer the most should Greece default.
Promises are all well and good....but Greece has no money and sod all assets to fulfil any of the promises. It is only EU money keeping their heads barely above water.
Either way this is just the inevitable deep shit for the Eurozone simply being brought forward a year or two due to this election result. Was always going to happen sooner or later.
The wheels came off the Euro train years ago...but no-one in authority will admit it!
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as i recall at the time that in order to join the euro club ones defecit had to be 3% of ones GDP or something like that..
seem to recall an awful lot of creative accounting went on with all the joining countries..
wrong analogy maybe but anything built on sand wont stand the test of time..
apart from the pyramids..
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself.
Not voluntarily at all. My pay packet is robbed every week with bullshit taxes and charges imposed by our puppet government so to claim that the people of Ireland are voluntarily paying for the reckless gambling of bankers who got off scot free is well wide of the mark!!"
Ireland's Government are voluntarily paying back the bail out loans early. Not wide of the mark at all, just a factually correct statement. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself..
Erm no their borrowing money elsewhere and using that to repay the IMF, they haven't actually saved the money up from austerity measures like you seem to be suggesting.
All the austerity measures have done is allow the markets to say they can afford repayments on their debt... Not that they can pay the debt back!
The fact that each person in Ireland is paying 9000 Euros in bail out costs compared to only 175 in Germany proves the eu is not exactly one harmoniums place yet!.
And Greece is even worse, they couldn't pay that debt back if they had austerity for the next 100 years.
Yes they might be able to restructure their debt to afford the repayments with cheaper interest.
But there you see is the difference between household economics and state economics.
"
If the measures have given the markets enough confidence to allow Ireland to borrow from elsewhere more cheaply, that's a sign they are doing what they are supposed to. That's what a lot of it has always been about - convincing investors that you're serious about tackling budget deficits, maybe even more so than actually paying off the debt that's built up. That's why Britain can still borrow cheaply, despite having some of the highest levels of debt going.
I'm not seeking to justify the measures of the Irish or Greek governments, I don't really give a fuck, I don't live there. Just presenting a few facts that get missed from the 'debate'. However if I was German, I'm sure I'd be entirely ok with only paying £175 per person towards the bail out of another country rather than the higher amount that country itself pays. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself.
Not voluntarily at all. My pay packet is robbed every week with bullshit taxes and charges imposed by our puppet government so to claim that the people of Ireland are voluntarily paying for the reckless gambling of bankers who got off scot free is well wide of the mark!!
Ireland's Government are voluntarily paying back the bail out loans early. Not wide of the mark at all, just a factually correct statement. "
.
Restructuring the debt would be more accurate.
Their borrowing to pay off the eu because they can borrow cheaper now than what the ecb have been charging them!. Or to look at it another way they've been paying a bigger share of the bailout money than Germany
They've not "paid anything off" perse |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself.
Not voluntarily at all. My pay packet is robbed every week with bullshit taxes and charges imposed by our puppet government so to claim that the people of Ireland are voluntarily paying for the reckless gambling of bankers who got off scot free is well wide of the mark!!
Ireland's Government are voluntarily paying back the bail out loans early. Not wide of the mark at all, just a factually correct statement. .
Restructuring the debt would be more accurate.
Their borrowing to pay off the eu because they can borrow cheaper now than what the ecb have been charging them!. Or to look at it another way they've been paying a bigger share of the bailout money than Germany
They've not "paid anything off" perse"
See my post above. Why couldn't they borrow more cheaply before than from the ECB? Because no one had the confidence to lend to them at a lower rate. Now they do, therefore one of the objectives of the austerity measures has been achieved.
What would you propose as a realistic alternative proposition? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself..
Erm no their borrowing money elsewhere and using that to repay the IMF, they haven't actually saved the money up from austerity measures like you seem to be suggesting.
All the austerity measures have done is allow the markets to say they can afford repayments on their debt... Not that they can pay the debt back!
The fact that each person in Ireland is paying 9000 Euros in bail out costs compared to only 175 in Germany proves the eu is not exactly one harmoniums place yet!.
And Greece is even worse, they couldn't pay that debt back if they had austerity for the next 100 years.
Yes they might be able to restructure their debt to afford the repayments with cheaper interest.
But there you see is the difference between household economics and state economics.
If the measures have given the markets enough confidence to allow Ireland to borrow from elsewhere more cheaply, that's a sign they are doing what they are supposed to. That's what a lot of it has always been about - convincing investors that you're serious about tackling budget deficits, maybe even more so than actually paying off the debt that's built up. That's why Britain can still borrow cheaply, despite having some of the highest levels of debt going.
I'm not seeking to justify the measures of the Irish or Greek governments, I don't really give a fuck, I don't live there. Just presenting a few facts that get missed from the 'debate'. However if I was German, I'm sure I'd be entirely ok with only paying £175 per person towards the bail out of another country rather than the higher amount that country itself pays. "
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Were uk/eu/us arecurrently buying our own gilts(bonds), that's hardly the sign of a brilliant economy that everybody wishes to invest in.
You refer to the markets like their a different entity than the ones that Ireland borrowed the money to bail out!.
I'm all for democracy if they want to vote to fuck austerity off, im fine with it.
I got lambasted for wanting out of the eu for this exact reason I said 6 months ago.
Portugal, Spain, Italy, Cyprus still to be sorted out but wait I can feel Turkey in the background waiting to take their place.
Fire frying pan springs to mind. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!"
It's interesting how the choice of start point for 'the last four years' can affect your perception. Take for example these figures for the last four years in Greece:
Unemployment has more than doubled from 8.3% to 17%
Real growth rate has crashed from 3% to -6.9%
GDP per capita has fallen from US$32k to 26.6k
Youth unemployment is 25.8%
Based on these figures for the previous 4 years, you could say that something has really screwed up the Greek economy. Could it be the austerity measures? No. These were the figures for 2007 to 2011, before austerity measures were introduced.
In terms of net migration, according to Eurostat it was -5.9 per 1000 in 2010 compared to -4.7 per 1000 in 2013 i.e. more people were migrating before austerity than during it. Of course if you check those figures you'll find I've picked them very carefully to make that point. The world bank for example shows net migration for Greece as fairly flat between 2010 and 2014. You pays your money, you takes yer choice of which stats you like.
The Greek economy in 2011 was a basket case on a steep downward trend before austerity measures were introduced. Let's hope they don't just choose to go back to the good old days |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself..
Erm no their borrowing money elsewhere and using that to repay the IMF, they haven't actually saved the money up from austerity measures like you seem to be suggesting.
All the austerity measures have done is allow the markets to say they can afford repayments on their debt... Not that they can pay the debt back!
The fact that each person in Ireland is paying 9000 Euros in bail out costs compared to only 175 in Germany proves the eu is not exactly one harmoniums place yet!.
And Greece is even worse, they couldn't pay that debt back if they had austerity for the next 100 years.
Yes they might be able to restructure their debt to afford the repayments with cheaper interest.
But there you see is the difference between household economics and state economics.
If the measures have given the markets enough confidence to allow Ireland to borrow from elsewhere more cheaply, that's a sign they are doing what they are supposed to. That's what a lot of it has always been about - convincing investors that you're serious about tackling budget deficits, maybe even more so than actually paying off the debt that's built up. That's why Britain can still borrow cheaply, despite having some of the highest levels of debt going.
I'm not seeking to justify the measures of the Irish or Greek governments, I don't really give a fuck, I don't live there. Just presenting a few facts that get missed from the 'debate'. However if I was German, I'm sure I'd be entirely ok with only paying £175 per person towards the bail out of another country rather than the higher amount that country itself pays. .
Were uk/eu/us arecurrently buying our own gilts(bonds), that's hardly the sign of a brilliant economy that everybody wishes to invest in.
You refer to the markets like their a different entity than the ones that Ireland borrowed the money to bail out!.
I'm all for democracy if they want to vote to fuck austerity off, im fine with it.
I got lambasted for wanting out of the eu for this exact reason I said 6 months ago.
Portugal, Spain, Italy, Cyprus still to be sorted out but wait I can feel Turkey in the background waiting to take their place.
Fire frying pan springs to mind."
And that's why this is naive and can't be taken seriously. You can't just "vote to fuck austerity off" without a credible alternative plan. Hopefully the new Greek government will have one. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its about time people stood up to crippling austerity and I pray that here in Ireland we stand up to the elite of European leaders using our puppet government to push decent hard working people into abject poverty. Cue the scaremongering from the rest of European fat cats about the left being "dangerous" and "not having an economic policy". Syriaza's economic policy could not be worse than the policy implemented on Greek citizens in the last 4 years which has led to an unemployment rate of 28%, chronic poverty and desperation, as well as a horribly high emigration level of their young people!!
Ireland is voluntarily paying off its bailout loans early, because some of the austerity measures have proved successful. That doesn't seem like the actions of a government being imposed upon by a malicious European guiding force. I'm not saying the austerity measures have been right or shouldn't be slowed down, but don't just blame the big bad bank bogeyman in Europe, your government (democratically elected) is making decisions for itself..
Erm no their borrowing money elsewhere and using that to repay the IMF, they haven't actually saved the money up from austerity measures like you seem to be suggesting.
All the austerity measures have done is allow the markets to say they can afford repayments on their debt... Not that they can pay the debt back!
The fact that each person in Ireland is paying 9000 Euros in bail out costs compared to only 175 in Germany proves the eu is not exactly one harmoniums place yet!.
And Greece is even worse, they couldn't pay that debt back if they had austerity for the next 100 years.
Yes they might be able to restructure their debt to afford the repayments with cheaper interest.
But there you see is the difference between household economics and state economics.
If the measures have given the markets enough confidence to allow Ireland to borrow from elsewhere more cheaply, that's a sign they are doing what they are supposed to. That's what a lot of it has always been about - convincing investors that you're serious about tackling budget deficits, maybe even more so than actually paying off the debt that's built up. That's why Britain can still borrow cheaply, despite having some of the highest levels of debt going.
I'm not seeking to justify the measures of the Irish or Greek governments, I don't really give a fuck, I don't live there. Just presenting a few facts that get missed from the 'debate'. However if I was German, I'm sure I'd be entirely ok with only paying £175 per person towards the bail out of another country rather than the higher amount that country itself pays. .
Were uk/eu/us arecurrently buying our own gilts(bonds), that's hardly the sign of a brilliant economy that everybody wishes to invest in.
You refer to the markets like their a different entity than the ones that Ireland borrowed the money to bail out!.
I'm all for democracy if they want to vote to fuck austerity off, im fine with it.
I got lambasted for wanting out of the eu for this exact reason I said 6 months ago.
Portugal, Spain, Italy, Cyprus still to be sorted out but wait I can feel Turkey in the background waiting to take their place.
Fire frying pan springs to mind.
And that's why this is naive and can't be taken seriously. You can't just "vote to fuck austerity off" without a credible alternative plan. Hopefully the new Greek government will have one. "
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Of course you can it's free will of the people to do what they wish.
It's not for the EU too determine the Greek budget it's for Greece, it's always been my argument against the EU.
If they wish to fuck their economy up who are we to interfere.
Hopefully the Greek people themselves will see sense and come to a reasonable, and yes it has to be reasonable, solution.
The EU is a failed political idea, a noble idea I'll give you,but not a workable one in my mind.
You can tell just from these forums how much people fall out about money and you'll see that played out in the real world with Greece and Ireland and soon to be Portugal Spain and Italy. |
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I picked up this thread a bit late so I've not read every post, but I think I've got the gist of what everyone is saying.
Of course the Greeks are fully entitled to vote for their own government and that government can run its economy how it feels fit. That is the easy bit.
The more difficult bit is who pays for all the promises?
Firstly they cant pay for it themselves. Their economy just isn't strong enough and beyond all the rhetoric about taxing shipping tycoons and banks it wont produce anything like the amount of day to day cash they need to pay the bills.
Apart from that Greek banks are not strong enough to face much extra taxation and the shipping tycoons will just jump ship (pardon the pun) to a more friendly jurisdiction, something they can very easily do.
So will Germany pay? Probably not. Merkel has made it clear that she will not give Greece (or anyone else) a blank cheque and has recently said that she wouldn't be too concerned about a Greek Euro exit. She is also under pressure from her own electorate who see that Germany seems to be bankrolling the whole Eurozone.
Will the EU or ECB pay? Without German approval (see above) forget it. They cannot do anything without the Germans underwriting it. As much as they would love to do so.
Could they borrow it from the IMF or on international markets? No to that one as well. Without ECB German guarantees no-one would lend them a penny. Greek bonds would just become toilet paper.
All of which leads to the nightmare scenario (for the EU) of the Greek exit from the Euro and a return to a devalued Drachma. This would be a very bumpy ride for a country with very little in the way of manufacturing, so exporting their way back to prosperity (other than with a few agricultural products) will be almost impossible. They will probably see a bit of a tourism boom but that only really benefits the islands and compared to other destinations Greece has a very short season.
The new government may get a short honeymoon period but the long term prognosis is pretty grim.
As for the EU. I think Mr Juncker will be choking on his breakfast brandy this morning. Deep down I think they would be happy for the Greeks to just disappear, but there lies the problem. If the Greeks are allowed to leave (or forced out) the Euro (for good or bad) then Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Italy, Cyprus, and maybe one or two more could just follow suit and that would be the end of the single currency.
Personally, I can't wait. |
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By *dd269Man
over a year ago
Clee |
I think we're all forgetting why the EU was set up in the first place.
After two disastrous wars in the 20th century, we all decided it was better to trade rather than fight state against state.
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By *dd269Man
over a year ago
Clee |
I think we're all forgetting why the EU was set up in the first place.
After two disastrous wars in the 20th century, we all decided it was better to trade rather than fight state against state.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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...and now begins the collapse of the Euro.
The news of the Greek election result has already affected currency markets with the Euro reaching an 11 year low.
I don't think it will be long until Greece gets kicked out of the eurozone. There are other elections coming up in other parts of europe where there is similar resistance to austerity. If Greece defaults on it's commitments bur is alloqed to stay, the message to other bailed out nations will be clear.
Compare the problems of Europe to the fact that currently the UK has the fastest growing economy on the planet which just goes to show how much we don't need to be part of europe |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think we're all forgetting why the EU was set up in the first place.
After two disastrous wars in the 20th century, we all decided it was better to trade rather than fight state against state.
"
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Yep TRADE together. |
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"If the left win, they will default on the loan, they will more than likely be booted out of the EU because of it, personally, they should never have been allowed in the EU club in the first place, the books were fiddled and the EU club overlooked a vast amount of things to let them in. Lots of egg on a lot of faces come Monday. Hopefully this will be the beginning of the end of the EU, we pay billions and get very little, if anything, out of it. The UK sold goods into Europe before the club opened, we will still be selling goods into Europe long after the club has closed, with far less cost and red tape than we do now."
Mostly correct except that it's the EZ (Euro Zone) not the EU (European Union) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So should we follow Iceland as a way forward "
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Well they let some banks go bust and jailed the odd banker for a few months and it probably helped with the feeling of all together but there still massively indebt when alls said and done and paying around 30% of income on interest! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think we're all forgetting why the EU was set up in the first place.
After two disastrous wars in the 20th century, we all decided it was better to trade rather than fight state against state.
"
Yep, and that's got lost along the way. It was supposed to be for trade, it was never meant to be about a single currency or the level of political and fiscal union it's got to. |
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By *imiUKMan
over a year ago
Hereford |
"
Marx just predicted that eventually capitalism would create socialism though the inherently inequitable system.
I've got no problems with "the state" owning everything after all we are the state.
I'd like it to be democratic and open much more open then today, but having we the people owning the profit instead of small bunch of families seems quite feasible with a moderate change in human behaviour"
You could go even further and say that all Marx did was offer a critique of capitalism.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Marx just predicted that eventually capitalism would create socialism though the inherently inequitable system.
I've got no problems with "the state" owning everything after all we are the state.
I'd like it to be democratic and open much more open then today, but having we the people owning the profit instead of small bunch of families seems quite feasible with a moderate change in human behaviour
You could go even further and say that all Marx did was offer a critique of capitalism.
"
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Well funnily enough that's exactly what he did!.
Forward thinkers are always ridiculed for one reason or another.
I read Lenin's book Years ago and found it quite fascinating how he predicted the development of capitalisation considering it was published in 1917. It's summary was....
In order for capitalism to generate greater profits than the home market can yield, the merging of banks and industrial cartels produces finance capitalism—the exportation and investment of capital to countries with underdeveloped economies. In turn, such financial behaviour leads to the division of the world among monopolist business companies and the great powers. Moreover, in the course of colonizing undeveloped countries, Business and Government eventually will engage in geopolitical conflict over the economic exploitation of large portions of the geographic world and its populaces. Therefore, imperialism is the highest advanced stage of capitalism, requiring monopolies (of labour and natural-resource exploitation) and the exportation of finance capital (rather than goods) to sustain colonialism, which is an integral function of said economic model.Furthermore, in the capitalist homeland, the super-profits yielded by the colonial exploitation of a people and their economy, permit businessmen to bribe native politicians, labour leaders and the labour aristocracy to politically thwart worker revolt (labour strike).
I think he seemed quite close wouldn't you say!
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"I think we're all forgetting why the EU was set up in the first place.
After two disastrous wars in the 20th century, we all decided it was better to trade rather than fight state against state.
"
Yes and just trade would have been wonderful, but.
The EU along with the US and the rest of the western world decided that the best way to avoid war was to give people lifestyles that previous generations could have only dreamed of, and with good planning it could have worked.
The problem is that politicians of all colours set out on a path of trying to out do each other as to who could give the public the most. Which is pretty much how Greece (and lots of others) got itself into the shit in the first place.
It is very easy to say "vote for me and I will give you this, that and the other" it is a lot more difficult to say that "I will increase taxes to pay for it" So the answer was BORROWING.
There is no better way to spend other peoples money without upsetting them if they haven't been born yet. Because that is exactly what they have done.
We can all complain about spending cuts, high/low taxes Etc. Etc. but the people who will ultimately have to pick up the bill are your and my kids, grandkids, and probably beyond.
So when I hear anyone moan about "the (so called) savage cuts" I think how bloody selfish that anyone could bitch about what the government is giving, or not giving, them in the knowledge (or in many cases ignorance) that the unborn will have to pay for it.
It is our generation that has lived beyond its means for decades and it is our generation that should pay it back, and that means all of us. I'm quite aware that some at the top end have had it too easy and they should be made to pay a bit more, but so should everyone else. It is time to start looking after yourself rather than relying on the nanny state to pick up the tab for everything.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Hopefully it will be the beginning of the end to the whole eu experiment. Something we never voted for in the first place, and has now become a dictatorship. As a previous poster has said, we sold goods in Europe prior to the eu and would continue to do so, either way. We are told it is our biggest trading partner, but that's only because we are told by the eu, who we can and can't trade with, worldwide. Hopefully the Greeks will be hailed as heroes in years to come after the whole sorry mess has disintegrated. If I tried to run a company that has never had its accounts signed off for many years, I would be facing court action.
"
well said. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Hopefully it will be the beginning of the end to the whole eu experiment. Something we never voted for in the first place, and has now become a dictatorship. As a previous poster has said, we sold goods in Europe prior to the eu and would continue to do so, either way. We are told it is our biggest trading partner, but that's only because we are told by the eu, who we can and can't trade with, worldwide. Hopefully the Greeks will be hailed as heroes in years to come after the whole sorry mess has disintegrated. If I tried to run a company that has never had its accounts signed off for many years, I would be facing court action.
well said."
Is this saying that the Greek government should be in court for not being able to keep a straight set of books? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Hopefully it will be the beginning of the end to the whole eu experiment. Something we never voted for in the first place, and has now become a dictatorship. As a previous poster has said, we sold goods in Europe prior to the eu and would continue to do so, either way. We are told it is our biggest trading partner, but that's only because we are told by the eu, who we can and can't trade with, worldwide. Hopefully the Greeks will be hailed as heroes in years to come after the whole sorry mess has disintegrated. If I tried to run a company that has never had its accounts signed off for many years, I would be facing court action.
well said."
a disunited Europe usually (in the last 100 years) means war; A few unsigned accounts is a small price to pay for peace? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Hopefully it will be the beginning of the end to the whole eu experiment. Something we never voted for in the first place, and has now become a dictatorship. As a previous poster has said, we sold goods in Europe prior to the eu and would continue to do so, either way. We are told it is our biggest trading partner, but that's only because we are told by the eu, who we can and can't trade with, worldwide. Hopefully the Greeks will be hailed as heroes in years to come after the whole sorry mess has disintegrated. If I tried to run a company that has never had its accounts signed off for many years, I would be facing court action.
well said.a disunited Europe usually (in the last 100 years) means war; A few unsigned accounts is a small price to pay for peace?"
We don't even need to pay that price. Anyone who did the research would be able to tell you that the EU accounts have been signed off each year by the auditors. |
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