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Murder
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"wow the 60's must have been a shit time for them 
good to read though  "
I think we have a misty-eyed _iew that everything was safer and better in the days of yore.
Work on gang crime has reduced the numbers in London but it is still young men who are the main victims of murder followed by women in domestic abuse situations.
It is a good news story though.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"wow the 60's must have been a shit time for them
good to read though
I think we have a misty-eyed _iew that everything was safer and better in the days of yore.
Work on gang crime has reduced the numbers in London but it is still young men who are the main victims of murder followed by women in domestic abuse situations.
It is a good news story though.
"
Ah but back in the good old days in the 60s we didn't need to lock our doors through fear of being burgled. That's mainly because we knew we'd be murdered before we got home.    |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"wow the 60's must have been a shit time for them
good to read though
I think we have a misty-eyed _iew that everything was safer and better in the days of yore.
Work on gang crime has reduced the numbers in London but it is still young men who are the main victims of murder followed by women in domestic abuse situations.
It is a good news story though.
Ah but back in the good old days in the 60s we didn't need to lock our doors through fear of being burgled. That's mainly because we knew we'd be murdered before we got home. "
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"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? "
. Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder"
Well, it's different enough to be separated by law - one has intent, one doesn't. Someone who disables a person through a traffic collision isn't necessarily attempting murder. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Crime in general is down. We face new challenges with social challenges and sadly mental health, but we are becoming better at managing differences and understanding others feelings.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder"
Sod the positive news let's bring a little negativity into things. |
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By *utzzCouple
over a year ago
wrexham |
"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder"
every silver lining has its cloud eh. What a cheery soul you must be |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder
Sod the positive news let's bring a little negativity into things."
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder
Sod the positive news let's bring a little negativity into things.
"
Always someone who has to piss on your chips |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible."
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder
Sod the positive news let's bring a little negativity into things.
Always someone who has to piss on your chips"
Its called living in the real world, not burying your head in the sand. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible."
Stats can be used to any advantage. The world is a much more dangerous place now, and no spin will change our opinion on that we're afraid |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
Stats can be used to any advantage. The world is a much more dangerous place now, and no spin will change our opinion on that we're afraid"
In what way is it more dangerous? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
Stats can be used to any advantage. The world is a much more dangerous place now, and no spin will change our opinion on that we're afraid"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
Stats can be used to any advantage. The world is a much more dangerous place now, and no spin will change our opinion on that we're afraid
"
If you don't believe in stats where's your proof that the world is much more dangerous? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
Stats can be used to any advantage. The world is a much more dangerous place now, and no spin will change our opinion on that we're afraid
If you don't believe in stats where's your proof that the world is much more dangerous?"
Have you read the newspapers or watched the news lately. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks."
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
Stats can be used to any advantage. The world is a much more dangerous place now, and no spin will change our opinion on that we're afraid
If you don't believe in stats where's your proof that the world is much more dangerous?
Have you read the newspapers or watched the news lately. "
Oh so you believe the spin from media rather than cold hard facts. No hidden agenda in the press to sell more cooies is there? |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
Stats can be used to any advantage. The world is a much more dangerous place now, and no spin will change our opinion on that we're afraid
If you don't believe in stats where's your proof that the world is much more dangerous?
Have you read the newspapers or watched the news lately. "
The fact that we have more news, through many more media just means you hear more and hear it more often not that it wasn't the same years ago.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
Stats can be used to any advantage. The world is a much more dangerous place now, and no spin will change our opinion on that we're afraid"
Never let the facts cloud your opinions |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
Stats can be used to any advantage. The world is a much more dangerous place now, and no spin will change our opinion on that we're afraid
Never let the facts cloud your opinions "
But it must be true I read it in the newspapers |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
Stats can be used to any advantage. The world is a much more dangerous place now, and no spin will change our opinion on that we're afraid
If you don't believe in stats where's your proof that the world is much more dangerous?
Have you read the newspapers or watched the news lately.
Oh so you believe the spin from media rather than cold hard facts. No hidden agenda in the press to sell more cooies is there?"
No of course not, they are making it all up. everything in the garden is rosy. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
"
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
It is perfectly possible to live in a happy blissful world if you avoid all news. It is how most of us lived before the ever growing presence of mass media.
Personally, I am a news junkie but I detox every once in a while to get back some sanity.
This is a good news story, in the scale of things.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true."
Are you saying that the government has lied about murder statistics, or that the decrease in murder isn't a sign of increased responsibility...? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true."
And yet in answer to the question "If you don't believe in stats where's your proof that the world is much more dangerous?"
Hilda says "Have you read the newspapers or watched the news lately. "
Eh????
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true."
But it does ring true. I have worked closely with the police in London over the years and have seen some of the efforts made to reduce crime.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true.
Are you saying that the government has lied about murder statistics, or that the decrease in murder isn't a sign of increased responsibility...?"
Both, of course.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true.
Are you saying that the government has lied about murder statistics, or that the decrease in murder isn't a sign of increased responsibility...?
Both, of course. "
You're embarrassing yourself now |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true.
And yet in answer to the question "If you don't believe in stats where's your proof that the world is much more dangerous?"
Hilda says "Have you read the newspapers or watched the news lately. "
Eh????
"
well obviously you havnt read that many. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true.
Are you saying that the government has lied about murder statistics, or that the decrease in murder isn't a sign of increased responsibility...?
Both, of course.
You're embarrassing yourself now"
Not quite as much as you I don't think. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true.
And yet in answer to the question "If you don't believe in stats where's your proof that the world is much more dangerous?"
Hilda says "Have you read the newspapers or watched the news lately. "
Eh????
well obviously you havnt read that many."
Maybe you have difficulty understanding what you read or don't get past the lurid headlines |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true.
Are you saying that the government has lied about murder statistics, or that the decrease in murder isn't a sign of increased responsibility...?
Both, of course. "
But why would you choose to be suspicious of good news? I can understand the opposite, but why wouldn't you want to believe things are getting better? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true.
And yet in answer to the question "If you don't believe in stats where's your proof that the world is much more dangerous?"
Hilda says "Have you read the newspapers or watched the news lately. "
Eh????
well obviously you havnt read that many.
Maybe you have difficulty understanding what you read or don't get past the lurid headlines"
Im not daft enough to be fooled like some people. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true.
And yet in answer to the question "If you don't believe in stats where's your proof that the world is much more dangerous?"
Hilda says "Have you read the newspapers or watched the news lately. "
Eh????
well obviously you havnt read that many.
Maybe you have difficulty understanding what you read or don't get past the lurid headlines
Im not daft enough to be fooled like some people."
I wouldn't risk putting that to the public vote if I were you |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true.
Are you saying that the government has lied about murder statistics, or that the decrease in murder isn't a sign of increased responsibility...?
Both, of course.
But why would you choose to be suspicious of good news? I can understand the opposite, but why wouldn't you want to believe things are getting better?"
Her tin-foil hat must be getting a bit too tight |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true.
Are you saying that the government has lied about murder statistics, or that the decrease in murder isn't a sign of increased responsibility...?
Both, of course.
But why would you choose to be suspicious of good news? I can understand the opposite, but why wouldn't you want to believe things are getting better?"
because its so obviously not true, yes it would be easier to kid myself that the good news was all true and the bad news wasn't. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
To be honest, why on earth would you believe that. Wishful thinking me thinks.
I'm just reporting what I heard on the news.
you cant believe, everything you hear on the news, especialy things that don't ring true.
But it does ring true. I have worked closely with the police in London over the years and have seen some of the efforts made to reduce crime.
"
Well then it must be true, thank heavens for that. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"But why would you choose to be suspicious of good news? I can understand the opposite, but why wouldn't you want to believe things are getting better?
because its so obviously not true, yes it would be easier to kid myself that the good news was all true and the bad news wasn't."
Yes but what in specific about this doesn't ring true? To me it does ring true - the Met is actively targeting gang crime, I see the metal detector gates and Stop and Search initiatives every weekend at tube stations. I don't read about murders on social networks as regularly as I used to. I just don't understand why you're seeing an increase in homicide in London and I'm not. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The 60s saw an average murder rate of 300 a year, the 2000s saw an average murder rate of 750.
Where exactly is the information that were down to 60s rates coming from. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The 60s saw an average murder rate of 300 a year, the 2000s saw an average murder rate of 750.
Where exactly is the information that were down to 60s rates coming from."
London Met Police. This year it isn't expected to break 100, it's currently 93. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The 60s saw an average murder rate of 300 a year, the 2000s saw an average murder rate of 750.
Where exactly is the information that were down to 60s rates coming from."
Have you adjusted for Inflation?
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"The 60s saw an average murder rate of 300 a year, the 2000s saw an average murder rate of 750.
Where exactly is the information that were down to 60s rates coming from.
London Met Police. This year it isn't expected to break 100, it's currently 93. "
Thanks. You nip off for a minute and the questions come flowing.
Your link to the US figures on the other thread is also interesting reading on supporting the decrease elsewhere.
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I wonder how much of the drop in murders is down to improvements in emergency medical care (much of it learned in Afghanistan) and better ambulance response times."
I think that is a factor. The treatment of stabbings in situ has helped in London.
They are just saying on the London news that the air ambulance has ensured that deaths are down because they provide faster treatments.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The 60s saw an average murder rate of 300 a year, the 2000s saw an average murder rate of 750.
Where exactly is the information that were down to 60s rates coming from.
London Met Police. This year it isn't expected to break 100, it's currently 93. "
..
Oh yeah I forgot.... Everyone lives in London ... 2002 was a particularly bad year reaching 1134 ... Mind you 172 of those were shipman's
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The problem with newspaper reports is that we may not always get the full story which should ideally read:
'Known murders are at 1960 levels in direct proportion to respective populations of then and now.'
Or words to that effect... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The 60s saw an average murder rate of 300 a year, the 2000s saw an average murder rate of 750.
Where exactly is the information that were down to 60s rates coming from.
London Met Police. This year it isn't expected to break 100, it's currently 93. ..
Oh yeah I forgot.... Everyone lives in London ... 2002 was a particularly bad year reaching 1134 ... Mind you 172 of those were shipman's
"
This post is solely about London homicide statistics, not the UK. You needn't be offended by other forces being excluded. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"The 60s saw an average murder rate of 300 a year, the 2000s saw an average murder rate of 750.
Where exactly is the information that were down to 60s rates coming from.
London Met Police. This year it isn't expected to break 100, it's currently 93. ..
Oh yeah I forgot.... Everyone lives in London ... 2002 was a particularly bad year reaching 1134 ... Mind you 172 of those were shipman's
"
I did start this thread with the London news. I mentioned that the news mentions the developed world. Nowhere is there any indication that this is about everyone living in London. However, we do have nearly 15% of the population of the UK population here though, so a concentration of figures is to be expected in our fair metropolis.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The 60s saw an average murder rate of 300 a year, the 2000s saw an average murder rate of 750.
Where exactly is the information that were down to 60s rates coming from.
London Met Police. This year it isn't expected to break 100, it's currently 93. ..
Oh yeah I forgot.... Everyone lives in London ... 2002 was a particularly bad year reaching 1134 ... Mind you 172 of those were shipman's
This post is solely about London homicide statistics, not the UK. You needn't be offended by other forces being excluded. "
.
That was a smiley face not an offended one  .
I never noticed the met murder rate profile thread... I shall retire to the corner with my cap  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The 60s saw an average murder rate of 300 a year, the 2000s saw an average murder rate of 750.
Where exactly is the information that were down to 60s rates coming from.
London Met Police. This year it isn't expected to break 100, it's currently 93. ..
Oh yeah I forgot.... Everyone lives in London ... 2002 was a particularly bad year reaching 1134 ... Mind you 172 of those were shipman's
I did start this thread with the London news. I mentioned that the news mentions the developed world. Nowhere is there any indication that this is about everyone living in London. However, we do have nearly 15% of the population of the UK population here though, so a concentration of figures is to be expected in our fair metropolis.
"
I think it'd also be worth the numbers being compared against the increase in population. The number of homicide per capita should have fallen dramatically. The homicide rate was more than halved in 2013 compared against 1990. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"The 60s saw an average murder rate of 300 a year, the 2000s saw an average murder rate of 750.
Where exactly is the information that were down to 60s rates coming from.
London Met Police. This year it isn't expected to break 100, it's currently 93. ..
Oh yeah I forgot.... Everyone lives in London ... 2002 was a particularly bad year reaching 1134 ... Mind you 172 of those were shipman's
I did start this thread with the London news. I mentioned that the news mentions the developed world. Nowhere is there any indication that this is about everyone living in London. However, we do have nearly 15% of the population of the UK population here though, so a concentration of figures is to be expected in our fair metropolis.
I think it'd also be worth the numbers being compared against the increase in population. The number of homicide per capita should have fallen dramatically. The homicide rate was more than halved in 2013 compared against 1990. "
We'll get accused of statistical witchcraft if we apply such an approach.
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I think all it proves in reality is the percentage of the population willing to murder has never really changed. There's just more of us"
The absolute number is down and there are more of us. However, I accept that medical interventions and the logistics of getting people to treatment has improved.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think all it proves in reality is the percentage of the population willing to murder has never really changed. There's just more of us"
In London, that isn't the case. In '90 the homicide rate per 100,000 was 2.5, it's 0.86 as of 2013. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Prison population has doubled though.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/philipjohnston/100213659/violent-crime-is-down-does-that-mean-prison-works-after-all/
And
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-is-crime-really-falling/13995
And why not
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/07/no-david-cameron-falling-crime-rates-are-not-because-magnificent-police
Ah, sits back waiting to be ignored... |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Prison population has doubled though.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/philipjohnston/100213659/violent-crime-is-down-does-that-mean-prison-works-after-all/
And
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-is-crime-really-falling/13995
And why not
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/07/no-david-cameron-falling-crime-rates-are-not-because-magnificent-police
Ah, sits back waiting to be ignored..."
We have also had a period of people being incarcerated for things that didn't have a custodial sentence in the past.
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"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder
Sod the positive news let's bring a little negativity into things.
Always someone who has to piss on your chips"
anyone pisses on my chips and that murder rate trend might be reversed  |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder
Sod the positive news let's bring a little negativity into things.
Always someone who has to piss on your chips
anyone pisses on my chips and that murder rate trend might be reversed "
Is the piss to get a salt and vinegar effect all in one?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Prison population has doubled though.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/philipjohnston/100213659/violent-crime-is-down-does-that-mean-prison-works-after-all/
And
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-is-crime-really-falling/13995
And why not
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/07/no-david-cameron-falling-crime-rates-are-not-because-magnificent-police
Ah, sits back waiting to be ignored...
We have also had a period of people being incarcerated for things that didn't have a custodial sentence in the past.
"
Plus the increase in the length of sentences, and decrease in parole being granted (probably due to the number of recalls being so high). |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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People replied..panics, not sure what to do and scurries back to my inbox.
There's loads of reasons really, hate Scameron trying to justify his cuts to everything all the bloody time though. They should cut their own stuff too. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think all it proves in reality is the percentage of the population willing to murder has never really changed. There's just more of us
In London, that isn't the case. In '90 the homicide rate per 100,000 was 2.5, it's 0.86 as of 2013."
.
I can't see the London figures but the national ones differ widely from year to year with the highest totals coming from between 1995 to 2005.
So for instance 1996 was 540 but 1999 saw 780.....1974 saw 600 but 1977 only saw 418.
My guess is if you looked at the mean average for any 5 year period against any modern 5 year average and allowed for the rise in population there wouldn't be much in it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think all it proves in reality is the percentage of the population willing to murder has never really changed. There's just more of us
In London, that isn't the case. In '90 the homicide rate per 100,000 was 2.5, it's 0.86 as of 2013..
I can't see the London figures but the national ones differ widely from year to year with the highest totals coming from between 1995 to 2005.
So for instance 1996 was 540 but 1999 saw 780.....1974 saw 600 but 1977 only saw 418.
My guess is if you looked at the mean average for any 5 year period against any modern 5 year average and allowed for the rise in population there wouldn't be much in it."
I just gave you the London statistics. They're readily available on Wikipedia with citations.
The London homicide rate has fallen significantly, and it's something to be thankful for. It highlights progress and development as human life is being valued more so than 50 years ago. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think all it proves in reality is the percentage of the population willing to murder has never really changed. There's just more of us
In London, that isn't the case. In '90 the homicide rate per 100,000 was 2.5, it's 0.86 as of 2013..
I can't see the London figures but the national ones differ widely from year to year with the highest totals coming from between 1995 to 2005.
So for instance 1996 was 540 but 1999 saw 780.....1974 saw 600 but 1977 only saw 418.
My guess is if you looked at the mean average for any 5 year period against any modern 5 year average and allowed for the rise in population there wouldn't be much in it."
Then you'd be wrong. Below are number of murders in England & Wales and murders as a % per million population. Figures from ONS
2000/1 847 14.4
2001/2 854 15.2
2002/3 1041 17.9
2003/4 852 14.6
2004/5 834 14.7
2005/6 764 13.3
2006/7 749 13.3
2007/8 772 13.6
2008/9 668 11.8
2009/10 626 11.1
2010/11 648 11.5
2011/12 553 9.8
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think all it proves in reality is the percentage of the population willing to murder has never really changed. There's just more of us
In London, that isn't the case. In '90 the homicide rate per 100,000 was 2.5, it's 0.86 as of 2013..
I can't see the London figures but the national ones differ widely from year to year with the highest totals coming from between 1995 to 2005.
So for instance 1996 was 540 but 1999 saw 780.....1974 saw 600 but 1977 only saw 418.
My guess is if you looked at the mean average for any 5 year period against any modern 5 year average and allowed for the rise in population there wouldn't be much in it.
I just gave you the London statistics. They're readily available on Wikipedia with citations.
The London homicide rate has fallen significantly, and it's something to be thankful for. It highlights progress and development as human life is being valued more so than 50 years ago. "
.
That could be for lots of reasons though. Extra security through terrorism, more cctv that puts people off, the ability to be found through DNA,Computer analysis.
Remember you were much more likely to get away with murder years ago than you are today which would obviously perturb the murderer.
I've always found that 70s study by Stanford to be very interesting in human behaviour, how many of us are nice by nature and how many of us are nice because of laws and societal confinement.
Me I'm betting if those lights went off and the food stopped the figures might rise a tad! |
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Crime overall is down, that is a fact. Murder is down, that is also a fact.
However, violent crime such as aggravated burglary, mugging & robbery are significantly up, as are sex crimes such as rape & pedophilia.
Don't shoot the messenger... |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Crime overall is down, that is a fact. Murder is down, that is also a fact.
However, violent crime such as aggravated burglary, mugging & robbery are significantly up, as are sex crimes such as rape & pedophilia.
Don't shoot the messenger... "
Shooting you would be criminal. I'm aware of the rape and paedophilia figures being up but I see those as a positive trend: people are reporting more than they used to.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Crime overall is down, that is a fact. Murder is down, that is also a fact.
However, violent crime such as aggravated burglary, mugging & robbery are significantly up, as are sex crimes such as rape & pedophilia.
Don't shoot the messenger...
Shooting you would be criminal. I'm aware of the rape and paedophilia figures being up but I see those as a positive trend: people are reporting more than they used to.
"
That's a difficult one to prove or disprove I imagine. Murder is not subject to people deciding it's not worth reporting so figure are fact |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think all it proves in reality is the percentage of the population willing to murder has never really changed. There's just more of us
In London, that isn't the case. In '90 the homicide rate per 100,000 was 2.5, it's 0.86 as of 2013..
I can't see the London figures but the national ones differ widely from year to year with the highest totals coming from between 1995 to 2005.
So for instance 1996 was 540 but 1999 saw 780.....1974 saw 600 but 1977 only saw 418.
My guess is if you looked at the mean average for any 5 year period against any modern 5 year average and allowed for the rise in population there wouldn't be much in it.
I just gave you the London statistics. They're readily available on Wikipedia with citations.
The London homicide rate has fallen significantly, and it's something to be thankful for. It highlights progress and development as human life is being valued more so than 50 years ago. .
That could be for lots of reasons though. Extra security through terrorism, more cctv that puts people off, the ability to be found through DNA,Computer analysis.
Remember you were much more likely to get away with murder years ago than you are today which would obviously perturb the murderer.
I've always found that 70s study by Stanford to be very interesting in human behaviour, how many of us are nice by nature and how many of us are nice because of laws and societal confinement.
Me I'm betting if those lights went off and the food stopped the figures might rise a tad!"
Maybe the cause doesn't matter in this case - there has been a definite decrease and it's something that deserves acknowledgement.
In my opinion, this was an excellent time for the Met to release such figures. Hostility is rising in the US and I don't want that to be mirrored in London. Transparency with what is really happening will aid trust and hopefully improve society. It's sad that people will still mistrust what they're told. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's sad that people will still mistrust what they're told. "
I think it reflects society's increased mistrust in our figures of authority and politicians. I think we are right not to accept everything without a healthy dose of scepticism but by the same token blindly denying everything is not helpful. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The government of every colour, have been proven to be pathological liars over everything from wars to banking to paper editors to major disasters like Hillsborough.
I wouldn't believe a word they said till I'd studied the evidence long and hard myself.
That's not to say I'm not believing this years figures in London but just that I'd like to study the figures and underlying evidence myself or least by somebody independent. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's sad that people will still mistrust what they're told.
I think it reflects society's increased mistrust in our figures of authority and politicians. I think we are right not to accept everything without a healthy dose of scepticism but by the same token blindly denying everything is not helpful."
I just don't think that these figures are falsified, and it's sad that some would suggest they are. I haven't seen any evidence to support them not being true. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That's not to say I'm not believing this years figures in London but just that I'd like to study the figures and underlying evidence myself or least by somebody independent."
But how can you be sure they are truly independent? Everybody has their price and it's not always money |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Stats can be used to any advantage. The world is a much more dangerous place now, and no spin will change our opinion on that we're afraid"
True stats can be extracted to prove any chosen cause, but I would argue against the more dangerous, and I am most definitely not afraid. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"But how can you be sure they are truly independent? Everybody has their price and it's not always money"
It wasn't a study, it was the Met's statistics. To suggest there's a cover up would also rely on falsification on reports by the ONS and Coroner. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"But how can you be sure they are truly independent? Everybody has their price and it's not always money
It wasn't a study, it was the Met's statistics. To suggest there's a cover up would also rely on falsification on reports by the ONS and Coroner. "
Was aimed at sexy_bum's statement that she would need independent data.
I've been quoting ONS already so I'm not disputing them |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"But how can you be sure they are truly independent? Everybody has their price and it's not always money
It wasn't a study, it was the Met's statistics. To suggest there's a cover up would also rely on falsification on reports by the ONS and Coroner.
Was aimed at sexy_bum's statement that she would need independent data.
I've been quoting ONS already so I'm not disputing them "
Ahh I didn't see the quote, sorry. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Who said they were making the figures up.
We all know how you can manipulate figures to look good (tescos have been doing it for ages apparently ).
To roll out a figure for one part of the country for one particular year proves nothing except we had less murders, I was more interested in why that particular part of the country has seen a reduction, is it the long time ban on gun crime setting a trend downwards, were most of the murders committed by gangs on other gangs, have the gangs been broken up better by better policing.....
There's a million and one bits of underlying evidence that might make gang murders down but everyday people being murdered up. Or vice versa.
Either way if the gov had anything to do with I'll guarantee there's bullshit at the heart of it.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Who said they were making the figures up.
We all know how you can manipulate figures to look good (tescos have been doing it for ages apparently ).
To roll out a figure for one part of the country for one particular year proves nothing except we had less murders, I was more interested in why that particular part of the country has seen a reduction, is it the long time ban on gun crime setting a trend downwards, were most of the murders committed by gangs on other gangs, have the gangs been broken up better by better policing.....
There's a million and one bits of underlying evidence that might make gang murders down but everyday people being murdered up. Or vice versa.
Either way if the gov had anything to do with I'll guarantee there's bullshit at the heart of it. "
I don't really know if I understand what you mean, but I don't know why you can't appreciate the reduction in homicide. This is good news and should be uplifting. I hope you do take the time to read into it.
The contributing factors are secondary, the point of this announcement was to make it clear that homicide is at a 50 year low. It is impossible for the Met to provide factual evidence as to why the numbers have decreased as each case will be so different in nature. On top of this, you keep ignoring the numbers and suggesting homicide is higher than reported. Homicides are down in number, not gang murders down and infanticide up - homicide as a whole is down.
Also a company declaring profits and the Met announcing crime rates aren't comparable. |
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"The 60s saw an average murder rate of 300 a year, the 2000s saw an average murder rate of 750.
Where exactly is the information that were down to 60s rates coming from.
Have you adjusted for Inflation?
"
genuine hearty laugh at that |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Who said they were making the figures up.
We all know how you can manipulate figures to look good (tescos have been doing it for ages apparently ).
To roll out a figure for one part of the country for one particular year proves nothing except we had less murders, I was more interested in why that particular part of the country has seen a reduction, is it the long time ban on gun crime setting a trend downwards, were most of the murders committed by gangs on other gangs, have the gangs been broken up better by better policing.....
There's a million and one bits of underlying evidence that might make gang murders down but everyday people being murdered up. Or vice versa.
Either way if the gov had anything to do with I'll guarantee there's bullshit at the heart of it.
On top of this, you keep ignoring the numbers and suggesting homicide is higher than reported. Homicides are down in number, not gang murders down and infanticide up - homicide as a whole is down.
"
.
Well let's say there's 1000 murders but 950 of them are gang shootings not really affecting anyone except gangs on the whole which means only 50 "normal" members of the public were murdered.... Now next year there's 700 murders so a 30% murder reduction but only 50 were gang related and 650 were members of the public..
So members of public bring murder actually went up from 50 to 650 but with overall murder down.
Now this is just a random load of bollocks and I'm not insinuating that the met are hiding anything and I'm happy that the murder rate is down |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Who said they were making the figures up.
We all know how you can manipulate figures to look good (tescos have been doing it for ages apparently ).
To roll out a figure for one part of the country for one particular year proves nothing except we had less murders, I was more interested in why that particular part of the country has seen a reduction, is it the long time ban on gun crime setting a trend downwards, were most of the murders committed by gangs on other gangs, have the gangs been broken up better by better policing.....
There's a million and one bits of underlying evidence that might make gang murders down but everyday people being murdered up. Or vice versa.
Either way if the gov had anything to do with I'll guarantee there's bullshit at the heart of it.
On top of this, you keep ignoring the numbers and suggesting homicide is higher than reported. Homicides are down in number, not gang murders down and infanticide up - homicide as a whole is down.
.
Well let's say there's 1000 murders but 950 of them are gang shootings not really affecting anyone except gangs on the whole which means only 50 "normal" members of the public were murdered.... Now next year there's 700 murders so a 30% murder reduction but only 50 were gang related and 650 were members of the public..
So members of public bring murder actually went up from 50 to 650 but with overall murder down.
Now this is just a random load of bollocks and I'm not insinuating that the met are hiding anything and I'm happy that the murder rate is down "
I think looking at numbers that way would suggest gang related murders don't affect the rest of the population which isn't the case. No matter how you look at it, a gang affiliated person is a human and their death is equivalent to a non gang affiliated person so those kind of factors shouldn't matter. Anyway, gangs account for 22% of serious crime in London. |
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"Who said they were making the figures up.
We all know how you can manipulate figures to look good (tescos have been doing it for ages apparently ).
To roll out a figure for one part of the country for one particular year proves nothing except we had less murders, I was more interested in why that particular part of the country has seen a reduction, is it the long time ban on gun crime setting a trend downwards, were most of the murders committed by gangs on other gangs, have the gangs been broken up better by better policing.....
There's a million and one bits of underlying evidence that might make gang murders down but everyday people being murdered up. Or vice versa.
Either way if the gov had anything to do with I'll guarantee there's bullshit at the heart of it. "
A healthy degree of skepticism around government statistics is always worthwhile (although these aren't published by the government). However, murder is a comparatively straightforward crime rate to compare over time. Other crime numbers (eg. petty crime) are open to variation based on policing levels, reporting rate, classification of crime types, etc. Homicide, meanwhile, isn't so open to such manipulation. It doesn't require anyone to press charges, is always recorded & investigated, etc. it's quite plausible that other types of violent crime are down due to under reporting or differing classification - maybe, it's hard to say - but this seems unlikely for murder. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I think all it proves in reality is the percentage of the population willing to murder has never really changed. There's just more of us
In London, that isn't the case. In '90 the homicide rate per 100,000 was 2.5, it's 0.86 as of 2013..
I can't see the London figures but the national ones differ widely from year to year with the highest totals coming from between 1995 to 2005.
So for instance 1996 was 540 but 1999 saw 780.....1974 saw 600 but 1977 only saw 418.
My guess is if you looked at the mean average for any 5 year period against any modern 5 year average and allowed for the rise in population there wouldn't be much in it.
Then you'd be wrong. Below are number of murders in England & Wales and murders as a % per million population. Figures from ONS
2000/1 847 14.4
2001/2 854 15.2
2002/3 1041 17.9
2003/4 852 14.6
2004/5 834 14.7
2005/6 764 13.3
2006/7 749 13.3
2007/8 772 13.6
2008/9 668 11.8
2009/10 626 11.1
2010/11 648 11.5
2011/12 553 9.8
"
.
Before you quote me on being wrong.
You did read through and see that I was arguing that the national murder rate for England in the 60s(average 300) was lower than the 2000s(average according to your figures 680)but if you accounted for extra population there'd be about the same give or take.....for which you've quoted only figures from 2000 to disprove me |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Who said they were making the figures up.
We all know how you can manipulate figures to look good (tescos have been doing it for ages apparently ).
To roll out a figure for one part of the country for one particular year proves nothing except we had less murders, I was more interested in why that particular part of the country has seen a reduction, is it the long time ban on gun crime setting a trend downwards, were most of the murders committed by gangs on other gangs, have the gangs been broken up better by better policing.....
There's a million and one bits of underlying evidence that might make gang murders down but everyday people being murdered up. Or vice versa.
Either way if the gov had anything to do with I'll guarantee there's bullshit at the heart of it.
On top of this, you keep ignoring the numbers and suggesting homicide is higher than reported. Homicides are down in number, not gang murders down and infanticide up - homicide as a whole is down.
.
Well let's say there's 1000 murders but 950 of them are gang shootings not really affecting anyone except gangs on the whole which means only 50 "normal" members of the public were murdered.... Now next year there's 700 murders so a 30% murder reduction but only 50 were gang related and 650 were members of the public..
So members of public bring murder actually went up from 50 to 650 but with overall murder down.
Now this is just a random load of bollocks and I'm not insinuating that the met are hiding anything and I'm happy that the murder rate is down
I think looking at numbers that way would suggest gang related murders don't affect the rest of the population which isn't the case. No matter how you look at it, a gang affiliated person is a human and their death is equivalent to a non gang affiliated person so those kind of factors shouldn't matter. Anyway, gangs account for 22% of serious crime in London. "
.
You'd think so wouldn't you but three stories made the threads thus week kids being shot in Pakistan, kids being killed in Australia and terrorism.
So obviously these rank higher in people thoughts than 12 triads who shot each other in a warehouse.
Personally I'm a big believer in everyone equal in the law regardless of circumstances, so I'm no big fan of that scenario myself but it was there for illustration purposes on how figures can be manipulated without being falsified perse |
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible."
No they are not!
Its more manipulation of figures by corrupt politicians!
Take a look at the definition of murder in the 60's...
Murder was the deliberate unlawful killing of a person who had the protection of the Crown provided they died within a year and a day of the assault that inflicted the fatal injury... OR
The killing of a person during the commissioning of a crime provided they died within a year and a day.
So all todays 'd*unk driving', 'causing death by dangerous driving' and all the 'I didnt mean to kill em' while beating people up or breaking other laws manslaughter charges would have been murder charges in the 60s and should be counted as such now if such a comparison is being made! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"wow the 60's must have been a shit time for them
good to read though
I think we have a misty-eyed _iew that everything was safer and better in the days of yore.
Work on gang crime has reduced the numbers in London but it is still young men who are the main victims of murder followed by women in domestic abuse situations.
It is a good news story though.
Ah but back in the good old days in the 60s we didn't need to lock our doors through fear of being burgled. That's mainly because we knew we'd be murdered before we got home. "
For the first time I snorted out loud as I read this |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"A good news story in London: murder rates are down to levels not seen since the 1960s.
Further, murder rates are down across the developed world. We're becoming more responsible.
No they are not!
Its more manipulation of figures by corrupt politicians!
Take a look at the definition of murder in the 60's...
Murder was the deliberate unlawful killing of a person who had the protection of the Crown provided they died within a year and a day of the assault that inflicted the fatal injury... OR
The killing of a person during the commissioning of a crime provided they died within a year and a day.
So all todays 'd*unk driving', 'causing death by dangerous driving' and all the 'I didnt mean to kill em' while beating people up or breaking other laws manslaughter charges would have been murder charges in the 60s and should be counted as such now if such a comparison is being made!"
The modern published murder figures do include manslaughter (and corporate homicide). |
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"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder
Sod the positive news let's bring a little negativity into things.
Always someone who has to piss on your chips"
Not sure if that's directed at me or the person who commented on my post, but I think it's pretty rude to imply that i'm not a cheery person, just for raising a valid point. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder
Sod the positive news let's bring a little negativity into things.
Always someone who has to piss on your chips
Not sure if that's directed at me or the person who commented on my post, but I think it's pretty rude to imply that i'm not a cheery person, just for raising a valid point. "
The statistics are for all types of homicide. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So I ask a question and am insulted as a result?! Makes absolute sense. "
Well, it wasn't me made the comment , but it was a negative way to look at what should be a good news article. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder
Sod the positive news let's bring a little negativity into things.
Always someone who has to piss on your chips
Not sure if that's directed at me or the person who commented on my post, but I think it's pretty rude to imply that i'm not a cheery person, just for raising a valid point.
The statistics are for all types of homicide. "
It's be interesting to see the stats broken down by type of weapon (if used), relationship between victim and assailant etc. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So I ask a question and am insulted as a result?! Makes absolute sense. "
You're insulted by that?
I read it as a funny quip, hardly a direct insult.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Murder rate might be down...but what about manslaughter and other killing crimes ie death by dangerous driving? . Those were my thoughts as well. Maiming someone for life through dangerous driving is little- different to murder
Sod the positive news let's bring a little negativity into things.
Always someone who has to piss on your chips
Not sure if that's directed at me or the person who commented on my post, but I think it's pretty rude to imply that i'm not a cheery person, just for raising a valid point.
The statistics are for all types of homicide.
It's be interesting to see the stats broken down by type of weapon (if used), relationship between victim and assailant etc."
The ONS usually does these types of reports, but it's too early for the 2014 report. Look for "Crime Survey for England and Wales, Office for National Statistics" |
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"So I ask a question and am insulted as a result?! Makes absolute sense.
Well, it wasn't me made the comment , but it was a negative way to look at what should be a good news article. "
It was realism not negativity! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So I ask a question and am insulted as a result?! Makes absolute sense.
Well, it wasn't me made the comment , but it was a negative way to look at what should be a good news article.
It was realism not negativity!"
They aren't mutually exclusive. |
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I can assure you I was being a realist, not negative.
I'm actually a very positive person, but have learnt through my experience that statistics are often altered to suit the higher powers (realism), and the world is actually a really shitty place, with really shitty people in it (negativity).
It's tragic that there are murders at all, but it's unlikely we'll ever live in a world without them. Or poverty, or famine or disease.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So I ask a question and am insulted as a result?! Makes absolute sense.
Well, it wasn't me made the comment , but it was a negative way to look at what should be a good news article.
It was realism not negativity!"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can assure you I was being a realist, not negative.
I'm actually a very positive person, but have learnt through my experience that statistics are often altered to suit the higher powers (realism), and the world is actually a really shitty place, with really shitty people in it (negativity).
It's tragic that there are murders at all, but it's unlikely we'll ever live in a world without them. Or poverty, or famine or disease.
"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can assure you I was being a realist, not negative.
I'm actually a very positive person, but have learnt through my experience that statistics are often altered to suit the higher powers (realism), and the world is actually a really shitty place, with really shitty people in it (negativity).
It's tragic that there are murders at all, but it's unlikely we'll ever live in a world without them. Or poverty, or famine or disease.
"
I think to say "yes murders are down, but what about all other deaths?" is a negative question as it's morbid. It wasn't neutral or positive. Realism is usually a synonym for pessimism and a misused term. |
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