FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > modern day slavery
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"The financial system has stealthy enslaved our species and now we are being used as currency slaves. We work from 9 to 5 every day, in boring and depressing environments, not stimulated by anything creative or constructive.just scrapping enough to live. The owner of wall mart his children have the same amount of money as 156 million of the poorest Americans McDonald workers have to claim food stamps because their wages don't give them enough to survive its about time we stood up and done something about this " Like what? | |||
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"The financial system has stealthy enslaved our species and now we are being used as currency slaves. We work from 9 to 5 every day, in boring and depressing environments, not stimulated by anything creative or constructive.just scrapping enough to live. The owner of wall mart his children have the same amount of money as 156 million of the poorest Americans McDonald workers have to claim food stamps because their wages don't give them enough to survive its about time we stood up and done something about this " McDonalds employs 156 million Americans? Wow. Can they use the food stamps in McDonalds? | |||
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"Boycott places that do these things make more people aware to the fact that we are just slaves to ceos of big companies we could use our time to benefit people who need it instead of making large companies more money " But if you boycott McDonalds it'll make 156 million people unemployed. How will that benefit them? | |||
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"Boycott places that do these things make more people aware to the fact that we are just slaves to ceos of big companies we could use our time to benefit people who need it instead of making large companies more money But if you boycott McDonalds it'll make 156 million people unemployed. How will that benefit them? " Cannot see Ryan doing that. | |||
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"Boycott places that do these things make more people aware to the fact that we are just slaves to ceos of big companies we could use our time to benefit people who need it instead of making large companies more money But if you boycott McDonalds it'll make 156 million people unemployed. How will that benefit them? Cannot see Ryan doing that. " Ryan's a scab! Can I still use Burger King? | |||
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""Power to the People" - "Wolfie" Smith " its a shame their are not enough people willing to do anything or they are to stupid to realise that they are being exploited | |||
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""Power to the People" - "Wolfie" Smith its a shame their are not enough people willing to do anything or they are to stupid to realise that they are being exploited " I don't really understand your point though. A company that employs people - benefits those employees does it not? We don't all work 9-5 and a lot of us work in a field that helps others. | |||
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""Power to the People" - "Wolfie" Smith its a shame their are not enough people willing to do anything or they are to stupid to realise that they are being exploited " Really, too stupid? Wow, modern day slavery really exists, in the form of human traffiking and domestic servitude etc....a lot of people do what they have to do to try and give their families a better life, not because they are stupid. | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. " i work 6-2 in John Lewis warehouse if i lived on my own i wouldn't have enough to pay my bills rent and buy food no matter what we will always be slaves to system no matter what we do for a living or how much money we earn | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. i work 6-2 in John Lewis warehouse if i lived on my own i wouldn't have enough to pay my bills rent and buy food no matter what we will always be slaves to system no matter what we do for a living or how much money we earn " I disagree. I am a slave to no one. I work when I want , where I want. Go on holiday when I want. | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money " You started off well........ | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. i work 6-2 in John Lewis warehouse if i lived on my own i wouldn't have enough to pay my bills rent and buy food no matter what we will always be slaves to system no matter what we do for a living or how much money we earn " are John Lewis employees not 'partners' in the company..? also If you wish to class yourself as a 'slave' (apart from it being a bit of a misrepresentation when you look at actual slavery which sadly still exists)then that's down to you.. don't be surprised if others don't agree | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. i work 6-2 in John Lewis warehouse if i lived on my own i wouldn't have enough to pay my bills rent and buy food no matter what we will always be slaves to system no matter what we do for a living or how much money we earn are John Lewis employees not 'partners' in the company..? also If you wish to class yourself as a 'slave' (apart from it being a bit of a misrepresentation when you look at actual slavery which sadly still exists)then that's down to you.. don't be surprised if others don't agree " in not surprised at all and yes they are partners | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money " Its true that billionaires don't need all that money, but they have earned it one way or the other so good to them. I have no interest in everyone being equal, you get out of life what you put in. If you don't like something in your life, then change it yourself, easy! | |||
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"But those people who have all that money and pay people just enough to live could pay more but just think of them selves and their bank balance " Some probably do, others may pay their employees really well. Would you want to live in a communist state ? Isn't that supposed to be equal, but those that lead it make sure those they consider lower are equal but poor! Whilst they sit there thinking " I'm alright Jack." Doesn't ever work ! | |||
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"But those people who have all that money and pay people just enough to live could pay more but just think of them selves and their bank balance " John Lewis has given hundreds of millions in bonuses to employees over the past few years. Plus I doubt Charlie Mayfield is a billionaire. Perhaps look towards improving yourself and question why you're not as successful as others instead of "bringing down the man", it'll be more beneficial. | |||
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"But those people who have all that money and pay people just enough to live could pay more but just think of them selves and their bank balance Some probably do, others may pay their employees really well. Would you want to live in a communist state ? Isn't that supposed to be equal, but those that lead it make sure those they consider lower are equal but poor! Whilst they sit there thinking " I'm alright Jack." Doesn't ever work ! " but that's how it is now we keep being told we are equal but sadly that is not the case | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money " The Soviet union shows that communism was no better or anymore successful. We live in a capitalist society and that is unlikely to change, so make the best possible world for yourself and your loved ones and if you can help someone else along the way then great. | |||
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"The Soviet union shows that communism was no better or anymore successful." North Korea shows just how well its going now. | |||
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"The financial system has stealthy enslaved our species and now we are being used as currency slaves. We work from 9 to 5 every day, in boring and depressing environments, not stimulated by anything creative or constructive.just scrapping enough to live. The owner of wall mart his children have the same amount of money as 156 million of the poorest Americans McDonald workers have to claim food stamps because their wages don't give them enough to survive its about time we stood up and done something about this " I don't work 9 till 5 and I love my job | |||
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"Completely agree with the OP, but the current system is just a semi-organised manifestation of the "survival of the fittest" pattern that exists in nature. We live in a social Darwinist world. In one way or another, there will always be a ruling, comfortable class, and an oppressed, struggling class.To change that would require a change in human nature, via genetic engineering and operant conditioning. " | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. i work 6-2 in John Lewis warehouse if i lived on my own i wouldn't have enough to pay my bills rent and buy food no matter what we will always be slaves to system no matter what we do for a living or how much money we earn " Your posts really make me breathless.... I think its the the lack of punctuation | |||
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"There's a documentary on walmart and how it's stores ruin local businesses and economies, people do protest against giant superstores coming into their small towns and they win, and there's protests all the time against multi-million profitting businesses not paying taxes and pay poverty wages, media doesn't report this stuff but it's going on all the time. Survival of the fittest is a Nazi terminology made up to validate their extinction of those who they considered inferior, Darwin never said that, he said species survive by adapting to their environment. Completely agree with the OP, but the current system is just a semi-organised manifestation of the "survival of the fittest" pattern that exists in nature. We live in a social Darwinist world. In one way or another, there will always be a ruling, comfortable class, and an oppressed, struggling class.To change that would require a change in human nature, via genetic engineering and operant conditioning. " Survival of the fittest is attributed to Herbert Spencer who used it long before the nazis were about. Darwin did use this phrase as well in the fifth edition of On the Origin of Species, published in 1869. Again long before the nazis where about. | |||
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"substitute "survival of the fittest" with "natural selection" and you still get the same result. And debates about terminology are irrelevant when the phenomenon can actually be observed in society. It all just goes back to what I've been trying to make stick in this discussion. Paradigmatic change will not happen by changing laws, changing governments. It will happen when every individual starts to live their lives according to what is best for the human species, and not themselves. But that carries with it a lot of other, scary implications So basically, we're screwed. Ah, to be human!" I don't consider myself screwed just because the bloke down the road has got more money than me and lives in a bigger house. If he's earned it and worked hard for it, fair play to him | |||
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"There's a documentary on walmart and how it's stores ruin local businesses and economies, people do protest against giant superstores coming into their small towns and they win, and there's protests all the time against multi-million profitting businesses not paying taxes and pay poverty wages, media doesn't report this stuff but it's going on all the time. Survival of the fittest is a Nazi terminology made up to validate their extinction of those who they considered inferior, Darwin never said that, he said species survive by adapting to their environment. Completely agree with the OP, but the current system is just a semi-organised manifestation of the "survival of the fittest" pattern that exists in nature. We live in a social Darwinist world. In one way or another, there will always be a ruling, comfortable class, and an oppressed, struggling class.To change that would require a change in human nature, via genetic engineering and operant conditioning. Survival of the fittest is attributed to Herbert Spencer who used it long before the nazis were about. Darwin did use this phrase as well in the fifth edition of On the Origin of Species, published in 1869. Again long before the nazis where about. " Yeah, actually it's an economic topic as well so i forgot it would apply that (herberts) way and not in a Nazi way. I'm having an early night lol. Bye. | |||
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"Those bloody nazi's...nicking people's quotes and sayings...grrr" Haha, My mistake though. | |||
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"The financial system has stealthy enslaved our species and now we are being used as currency slaves. We work from 9 to 5 every day, in boring and depressing environments, not stimulated by anything creative or constructive.just scrapping enough to live. The owner of wall mart his children have the same amount of money as 156 million of the poorest Americans McDonald workers have to claim food stamps because their wages don't give them enough to survive its about time we stood up and done something about this " I get tired of people complaining that stuff "...will only benefit the rich and powerful." Well, what the fuck is wrong with that? We do shit that only benefits the poor and the "unfortunate" all the damn time. What, you think the rich give a shit about social security and food stamps? Life is what you make it..sitting about moaning isn't going to change the way life is.... I'm not bothered about it. | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. " Not enough thumbs up for this but I'll give it a couple | |||
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"Not so long ago I was in a crap job, working crap hours and constant abuse from customers and management. So I got off my arse, started an OU degree, got another job. I now have a car, a job I love (most of time) that is never the same 2 days in a row. And I help people who need it. To say I am a modern day slave I find insulting to those who genuinely are brought up or sold into slavery, even in a rich country like the UK." Great post. | |||
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"The financial system has stealthy enslaved our species and now we are being used as currency slaves. We work from 9 to 5 every day, in boring and depressing environments, not stimulated by anything creative or constructive.just scrapping enough to live. The owner of wall mart his children have the same amount of money as 156 million of the poorest Americans McDonald workers have to claim food stamps because their wages don't give them enough to survive its about time we stood up and done something about this I get tired of people complaining that stuff "...will only benefit the rich and powerful." Well, what the fuck is wrong with that? We do shit that only benefits the poor and the "unfortunate" all the damn time. What, you think the rich give a shit about social security and food stamps? Life is what you make it..sitting about moaning isn't going to change the way life is.... I'm not bothered about it." I agree with the above, dry your eyes and make a difference in your own life if your not happy- the Walton family of Walmart originally had a starting point, tomorrow can be yours if you work smart enough. The biggest issue sounds like too many people with defeatist attitudes made stupid decisions, getting themselves locked into debt and would rather plod along, moan about the problem instead of knuckling down and have a plan to resolve. | |||
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"The financial system has stealthy enslaved our species and now we are being used as currency slaves. We work from 9 to 5 every day, in boring and depressing environments, not stimulated by anything creative or constructive.just scrapping enough to live. The owner of wall mart his children have the same amount of money as 156 million of the poorest Americans McDonald workers have to claim food stamps because their wages don't give them enough to survive its about time we stood up and done something about this " You speak for yourself i love my job | |||
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"The wages have to be shit most of us have to be poor the world works that way! If we're poor we have to go back to work the next day, if everyone had lots of money everythin would stop. & yet politicians get £60k+ for doing nothing but figure out ways to make us poorer, & the dirty fuckin rats want more money, the part u said about us only earning enough to get by alot of people aren't gettin by alot of people are choosing each week to have heat or food Scotland is slowly but surely turning into a 3rd world country, mostly due to England's billions of debt but that's a story for another forum" Your right about it being a different forum in your response but as a scot that's prepared to work for what I want out of life it just sounds like another twist on 'poor me, who can I blame?' attitude. | |||
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"The wages have to be shit most of us have to be poor the world works that way! If we're poor we have to go back to work the next day, if everyone had lots of money everythin would stop. & yet politicians get £60k+ for doing nothing but figure out ways to make us poorer, & the dirty fuckin rats want more money, the part u said about us only earning enough to get by alot of people aren't gettin by alot of people are choosing each week to have heat or food Scotland is slowly but surely turning into a 3rd world country, mostly due to England's billions of debt but that's a story for another forum" Sad your so bitter | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money The Soviet union shows that communism was no better or anymore successful. We live in a capitalist society and that is unlikely to change, so make the best possible world for yourself and your loved ones and if you can help someone else along the way then great. " | |||
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"The financial system has stealthy enslaved our species and now we are being used as currency slaves. We work from 9 to 5 every day, in boring and depressing environments, not stimulated by anything creative or constructive.just scrapping enough to live. The owner of wall mart his children have the same amount of money as 156 million of the poorest Americans McDonald workers have to claim food stamps because their wages don't give them enough to survive its about time we stood up and done something about this " Bad as it sounds the up echelon of society will always exist. Before straight cash from (anyone can argue talent and skill) working hard to get money there was birth or marriage into the right tier, or strength of your arm. Our species has always has a tiered society so what's to change that? Communism doesn't work as natural talent or skill always shows through | |||
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"The wages have to be shit most of us have to be poor the world works that way! If we're poor we have to go back to work the next day, if everyone had lots of money everythin would stop. & yet politicians get £60k+ for doing nothing but figure out ways to make us poorer, & the dirty fuckin rats want more money, the part u said about us only earning enough to get by alot of people aren't gettin by alot of people are choosing each week to have heat or food Scotland is slowly but surely turning into a 3rd world country, mostly due to England's billions of debt but that's a story for another forum" Jackanory. | |||
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"The wages have to be shit most of us have to be poor the world works that way! If we're poor we have to go back to work the next day, if everyone had lots of money everythin would stop. & yet politicians get £60k+ for doing nothing but figure out ways to make us poorer, & the dirty fuckin rats want more money, the part u said about us only earning enough to get by alot of people aren't gettin by alot of people are choosing each week to have heat or food Scotland is slowly but surely turning into a 3rd world country, mostly due to England's billions of debt but that's a story for another forumSad your so bitter" and so wrong too.. | |||
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"Not so long ago I was in a crap job, working crap hours and constant abuse from customers and management. So I got off my arse, started an OU degree, got another job. I now have a car, a job I love (most of time) that is never the same 2 days in a row. And I help people who need it. To say I am a modern day slave I find insulting to those who genuinely are brought up or sold into slavery, even in a rich country like the UK." | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money Its true that billionaires don't need all that money, but they have earned it one way or the other so good to them. I have no interest in everyone being equal, you get out of life what you put in. If you don't like something in your life, then change it yourself, easy! " Royalty never earned their land and riches. They stole them. | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money The Soviet union shows that communism was no better or anymore successful. We live in a capitalist society and that is unlikely to change, so make the best possible world for yourself and your loved ones and if you can help someone else along the way then great. " Communism never works, because people don't know how to use it properly. They are still stuck in the "me me me " mindset. It can never work when you have people running it that are capitalists at heart. | |||
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"If someone is consistently bringing in revenue in excess of £1,000,000 per week to their company (be that a football club, movie production company or investment firm etc etc etc...) them can't u also argue that they've 'earned' that £250,000 per week?? Look at Beckham. He was on stupid money at PSG, he didn't need it, so he gave it away. " I respect people who don't need it "giving it away", though I'd like to know precisely where it's going. And no. No one "earns" 250k per week in my mind. Even if you ran the world. Measures should be put in place to prevent any one person having that kind of money. | |||
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"substitute "survival of the fittest" with "natural selection" and you still get the same result. And debates about terminology are irrelevant when the phenomenon can actually be observed in society. It all just goes back to what I've been trying to make stick in this discussion. Paradigmatic change will not happen by changing laws, changing governments. It will happen when every individual starts to live their lives according to what is best for the human species, and not themselves. But that carries with it a lot of other, scary implications So basically, we're screwed. Ah, to be human!" I don't see looking after my fellow man and sharing my food with him as scary. It sounds rather nice. | |||
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"If someone is consistently bringing in revenue in excess of £1,000,000 per week to their company (be that a football club, movie production company or investment firm etc etc etc...) them can't u also argue that they've 'earned' that £250,000 per week?? Look at Beckham. He was on stupid money at PSG, he didn't need it, so he gave it away. I respect people who don't need it "giving it away", though I'd like to know precisely where it's going. And no. No one "earns" 250k per week in my mind. Even if you ran the world. Measures should be put in place to prevent any one person having that kind of money." Rubbish. | |||
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"substitute "survival of the fittest" with "natural selection" and you still get the same result. And debates about terminology are irrelevant when the phenomenon can actually be observed in society. It all just goes back to what I've been trying to make stick in this discussion. Paradigmatic change will not happen by changing laws, changing governments. It will happen when every individual starts to live their lives according to what is best for the human species, and not themselves. But that carries with it a lot of other, scary implications So basically, we're screwed. Ah, to be human! I don't see looking after my fellow man and sharing my food with him as scary. It sounds rather nice. " Read "Brave new world" by Huxley and I think you'll get what I mean. To only care for the collective means you lose a great deal of your individual identity. And you may have to sacrifice yourself for the good of the species. | |||
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"If someone is consistently bringing in revenue in excess of £1,000,000 per week to their company (be that a football club, movie production company or investment firm etc etc etc...) them can't u also argue that they've 'earned' that £250,000 per week?? Look at Beckham. He was on stupid money at PSG, he didn't need it, so he gave it away. I respect people who don't need it "giving it away", though I'd like to know precisely where it's going. And no. No one "earns" 250k per week in my mind. Even if you ran the world. Measures should be put in place to prevent any one person having that kind of money. Rubbish. " Care to elaborate? | |||
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"Consider £500 million. If you give it to 1 million workers they will spend their £500 on goods and holidays which benefit primarily those out of this country. Give it to a billionaire and it will be invested and creat jobs in the UK. Hard choice. " Will he though? I think it would be deposited in a swiss bank and he wouodnt be paying much in the way of tax on it. | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money The Soviet union shows that communism was no better or anymore successful. We live in a capitalist society and that is unlikely to change, so make the best possible world for yourself and your loved ones and if you can help someone else along the way then great. Communism never works, because people don't know how to use it properly. They are still stuck in the "me me me " mindset. It can never work when you have people running it that are capitalists at heart." Communism doesn't work as innovation is based on greed and laziness. If the human race was selfless we wouldn't be dominate It's actually quite simple | |||
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"The wages have to be shit most of us have to be poor the world works that way! If we're poor we have to go back to work the next day, if everyone had lots of money everythin would stop. & yet politicians get £60k+ for doing nothing but figure out ways to make us poorer, & the dirty fuckin rats want more money, the part u said about us only earning enough to get by alot of people aren't gettin by alot of people are choosing each week to have heat or food Scotland is slowly but surely turning into a 3rd world country, mostly due to England's billions of debt but that's a story for another forumSad your so bitter and so wrong too.." Whaaaaaaaaat?? Scotland turning into a third world country. How? What? Where? And again how? | |||
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"substitute "survival of the fittest" with "natural selection" and you still get the same result. And debates about terminology are irrelevant when the phenomenon can actually be observed in society. It all just goes back to what I've been trying to make stick in this discussion. Paradigmatic change will not happen by changing laws, changing governments. It will happen when every individual starts to live their lives according to what is best for the human species, and not themselves. But that carries with it a lot of other, scary implications So basically, we're screwed. Ah, to be human! I don't see looking after my fellow man and sharing my food with him as scary. It sounds rather nice. Read "Brave new world" by Huxley and I think you'll get what I mean. To only care for the collective means you lose a great deal of your individual identity. And you may have to sacrifice yourself for the good of the species." Presuming you want to be governed. Id rather not be. | |||
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"If someone is consistently bringing in revenue in excess of £1,000,000 per week to their company (be that a football club, movie production company or investment firm etc etc etc...) them can't u also argue that they've 'earned' that £250,000 per week?? Look at Beckham. He was on stupid money at PSG, he didn't need it, so he gave it away. I respect people who don't need it "giving it away", though I'd like to know precisely where it's going. And no. No one "earns" 250k per week in my mind. Even if you ran the world. Measures should be put in place to prevent any one person having that kind of money. Rubbish. Care to elaborate?" I'll use Beckham as an example as he has been mentioned above. If he sells shirts , books , magazines , dvd's and other such image rights and if Adidas , Nike or reebok want to use his image to sell a product where should the money go if not to him. And a man who has built a company that turns over a million a week why can he not pay himself substantially ? | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money The Soviet union shows that communism was no better or anymore successful. We live in a capitalist society and that is unlikely to change, so make the best possible world for yourself and your loved ones and if you can help someone else along the way then great. Communism never works, because people don't know how to use it properly. They are still stuck in the "me me me " mindset. It can never work when you have people running it that are capitalists at heart. Communism doesn't work as innovation is based on greed and laziness. If the human race was selfless we wouldn't be dominate It's actually quite simple " Innovation isn't based on greed or laziness. Need is a far greater driving force. | |||
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" I'll use Beckham as an example as he has been mentioned above. If he sells shirts , books , magazines , dvd's and other such image rights and if Adidas , Nike or reebok want to use his image to sell a product where should the money go if not to him. And a man who has built a company that turns over a million a week why can he not pay himself substantially ?" Because there are people starving to death, and facing terrible human rights abuses across the globe. With the rewards success brings, you have an additional responsibility to see that money being put to good use. Not overindulge, Wolf of Wall Street style. | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money The Soviet union shows that communism was no better or anymore successful. We live in a capitalist society and that is unlikely to change, so make the best possible world for yourself and your loved ones and if you can help someone else along the way then great. Communism never works, because people don't know how to use it properly. They are still stuck in the "me me me " mindset. It can never work when you have people running it that are capitalists at heart. Communism doesn't work as innovation is based on greed and laziness. If the human race was selfless we wouldn't be dominate It's actually quite simple Innovation isn't based on greed or laziness. Need is a far greater driving force." Need isn't a driving force. Need is a subjective desire which has been forced to deal with an issue which has came out the blue. Innovation or invention comes from the desire to do something new, easier more productive. While also lessening the workload on a person and equally a positive pay off. Hence innovation needs greed and laziness. The only innovation through need is through time of hardship or war. In which there is a desire of laziness as you are loosing man power so need a workforce that can so more for less | |||
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" I'll use Beckham as an example as he has been mentioned above. If he sells shirts , books , magazines , dvd's and other such image rights and if Adidas , Nike or reebok want to use his image to sell a product where should the money go if not to him. And a man who has built a company that turns over a million a week why can he not pay himself substantially ? Because there are people starving to death, and facing terrible human rights abuses across the globe. With the rewards success brings, you have an additional responsibility to see that money being put to good use. Not overindulge, Wolf of Wall Street style." So where is the motivation to work and better yourself going to come from if you can't earn any money ? | |||
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" So where is the motivation to work and better yourself going to come from if you can't earn any money ? " "Any money"? How can you justify someone lliving it large on 250k+ per week? Not only should people be pleased if they end up earning 100k per year, people should also be brought up believing (and the system should be geared towards) working for the greater good, and less for self preservation. | |||
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"I boycott McDonalds a long time ago i refuse to put that tasteless crap in my body " So you avoid because you don't like the taste. That must be a real hard sacrifice your making for the cause. | |||
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" I'll use Beckham as an example as he has been mentioned above. If he sells shirts , books , magazines , dvd's and other such image rights and if Adidas , Nike or reebok want to use his image to sell a product where should the money go if not to him. And a man who has built a company that turns over a million a week why can he not pay himself substantially ? Because there are people starving to death, and facing terrible human rights abuses across the globe. With the rewards success brings, you have an additional responsibility to see that money being put to good use. Not overindulge, Wolf of Wall Street style." Also while you are using your expensive phone or sat behind your pricey pc using internet that has to be paid for, which could all be described as luxuries , those same people are starving and having their rights abused. Beckham probably gives more to charity in a week than you can in a lifetime. | |||
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"substitute "survival of the fittest" with "natural selection" and you still get the same result. And debates about terminology are irrelevant when the phenomenon can actually be observed in society. It all just goes back to what I've been trying to make stick in this discussion. Paradigmatic change will not happen by changing laws, changing governments. It will happen when every individual starts to live their lives according to what is best for the human species, and not themselves. But that carries with it a lot of other, scary implications So basically, we're screwed. Ah, to be human! I don't see looking after my fellow man and sharing my food with him as scary. It sounds rather nice. Read "Brave new world" by Huxley and I think you'll get what I mean. To only care for the collective means you lose a great deal of your individual identity. And you may have to sacrifice yourself for the good of the species. Presuming you want to be governed. Id rather not be. " . Come on man son. . Let's see how long bill gates can hold out in that hillside mansion... Oh turns out he's got a 150 million pounds complex in south america with underground fortification and a 400 million quid yacht capable of staying at sea for months!!. Darn it all he's given this more thought than us stupid folk | |||
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" I'll use Beckham as an example as he has been mentioned above. If he sells shirts , books , magazines , dvd's and other such image rights and if Adidas , Nike or reebok want to use his image to sell a product where should the money go if not to him. And a man who has built a company that turns over a million a week why can he not pay himself substantially ? Because there are people starving to death, and facing terrible human rights abuses across the globe. With the rewards success brings, you have an additional responsibility to see that money being put to good use. Not overindulge, Wolf of Wall Street style. Also while you are using your expensive phone or sat behind your pricey pc using internet that has to be paid for, which could all be described as luxuries , those same people are starving and having their rights abused. Beckham probably gives more to charity in a week than you can in a lifetime. " . Yeah but he's still a cockney cunt | |||
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"Boycott places that do these things make more people aware to the fact that we are just slaves to ceos of big companies we could use our time to benefit people who need it instead of making large companies more money " And where, according to your theory, does this ;more money' go after the companies have made it. Just want to get the full picture please. | |||
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" So where is the motivation to work and better yourself going to come from if you can't earn any money ? "Any money"? How can you justify someone lliving it large on 250k+ per week? Not only should people be pleased if they end up earning 100k per year, people should also be brought up believing (and the system should be geared towards) working for the greater good, and less for self preservation." Most people who earn that much pay in excess of taxes which go to the greater good than we ever could plus they donate much larger amounts to charity. Say 250k a week so 1m a month equals around 450k in taxes a month so just over 10million into the treasury a year. These are not people paid by the goer meant but actively contributing. Anyone who uses services or claims money should be happy there are idiots who ou these people that much. Before "tax dodging" comes in direct income tax is a very big red flag audit point these people employers will make sure this tax is paid. Harder when your self employed | |||
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" Also while you are using your expensive phone or sat behind your pricey pc using internet that has to be paid for, which could all be described as luxuries , those same people are starving and having their rights abused. Beckham probably gives more to charity in a week than you can in a lifetime. " Great, Beckham gives to charity. Wonderful. What about the millions of other multi-millionaires and billionaires that do not? You can't sit there believing they are all such philanthropists. | |||
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""Power to the People" - "Wolfie" Smith its a shame their are not enough people willing to do anything or they are to stupid to realise that they are being exploited " Or maybe they are well educated, well read people who are not easily lead by demagogical slogans | |||
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" Also while you are using your expensive phone or sat behind your pricey pc using internet that has to be paid for, which could all be described as luxuries , those same people are starving and having their rights abused. Beckham probably gives more to charity in a week than you can in a lifetime. Great, Beckham gives to charity. Wonderful. What about the millions of other multi-millionaires and billionaires that do not? You can't sit there believing they are all such philanthropists. " No just direct or indirect tax payers Income/vat/stamp and interest tax gets everyone | |||
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" Most people who earn that much pay in excess of taxes which go to the greater good than we ever could plus they donate much larger amounts to charity. Say 250k a week so 1m a month equals around 450k in taxes a month so just over 10million into the treasury a year. These are not people paid by the goer meant but actively contributing. Anyone who uses services or claims money should be happy there are idiots who ou these people that much. Before "tax dodging" comes in direct income tax is a very big red flag audit point these people employers will make sure this tax is paid. Harder when your self employed " 1. Tax avoidance schemes are rife. 2. most people who are that wealthy are self employed. 3. Not too long ago, Goldman Sachs were pursued by HMRC for accumulate quite a backlog of unpaid taxes. Being the giant that it is, GS told them to sod off, or they'll pull out of the British economy. 4. You're operating on the presumption that everyone "earns" in this world. They don't. Some people are born into unimaginable wealth. Wealth that should be used efficiently. | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. " That's my experience of working life to. If I didn't to what I do for work I'd do it as a hobby just for the pleasure of doing it. | |||
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""Power to the People" - "Wolfie" Smith its a shame their are not enough people willing to do anything or they are to stupid to realise that they are being exploited Or maybe they are well educated, well read people who are not easily lead by demagogical slogans " . You mean like yourself. Humans were all a bunch of cunts. But some more than others | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. i work 6-2 in John Lewis warehouse if i lived on my own i wouldn't have enough to pay my bills rent and buy food no matter what we will always be slaves to system no matter what we do for a living or how much money we earn " But John Lewis in not a large corporate organisation. John Lewis is a workers co-operative. If you work there you own part of it. You are in fact exploiting yourself. | |||
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" Also while you are using your expensive phone or sat behind your pricey pc using internet that has to be paid for, which could all be described as luxuries , those same people are starving and having their rights abused. Beckham probably gives more to charity in a week than you can in a lifetime. Great, Beckham gives to charity. Wonderful. What about the millions of other multi-millionaires and billionaires that do not? You can't sit there believing they are all such philanthropists. No just direct or indirect tax payers Income/vat/stamp and interest tax gets everyone " They contribute more than you ever could by employing people , paying tax which in turn funds the NHS and education. Envy is a dreadful trait. | |||
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" They contribute more than you ever could by employing people , paying tax which in turn funds the NHS and education. Envy is a dreadful trait. " It's very unprofessional to make matters personal, you know. | |||
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" Most people who earn that much pay in excess of taxes which go to the greater good than we ever could plus they donate much larger amounts to charity. Say 250k a week so 1m a month equals around 450k in taxes a month so just over 10million into the treasury a year. These are not people paid by the goer meant but actively contributing. Anyone who uses services or claims money should be happy there are idiots who ou these people that much. Before "tax dodging" comes in direct income tax is a very big red flag audit point these people employers will make sure this tax is paid. Harder when your self employed 1. Tax avoidance schemes are rife. 2. most people who are that wealthy are self employed. 3. Not too long ago, Goldman Sachs were pursued by HMRC for accumulate quite a backlog of unpaid taxes. Being the giant that it is, GS told them to sod off, or they'll pull out of the British economy. 4. You're operating on the presumption that everyone "earns" in this world. They don't. Some people are born into unimaginable wealth. Wealth that should be used efficiently." Now your workin on the assumption tax avoiding is easy it isn't. Self employed and being well off as in large expenses and small income is a massive audit red flag These people get caught. Not public and media hype but they do. Also inheritance tax mate. It's hits you hard no matter how rich and trust me you don't dodge that easily | |||
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"Sigh...this is one of those policy issues that doesn't really have an answer. I'm just sick of seeing so much wealth and so much poverty in the same place." . They go hand in hand my friend. Walk away they don't want to be saved | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. i work 6-2 in John Lewis warehouse if i lived on my own i wouldn't have enough to pay my bills rent and buy food no matter what we will always be slaves to system no matter what we do for a living or how much money we earn I disagree. I am a slave to no one. I work when I want , where I want. Go on holiday when I want. " I think you'll find that probably makes you part of the oppressors then. Your either with us or against us. Vive le revolution Worker of the world unite, you have nothing.... blah blah blah. We've heard it all before | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. i work 6-2 in John Lewis warehouse if i lived on my own i wouldn't have enough to pay my bills rent and buy food no matter what we will always be slaves to system no matter what we do for a living or how much money we earn I disagree. I am a slave to no one. I work when I want , where I want. Go on holiday when I want. I think you'll find that probably makes you part of the oppressors then. Your either with us or against us. Vive le revolution Worker of the world unite, you have nothing.... blah blah blah. We've heard it all before" . Hey remember he's the not very well read type... Maybe he hasn't heard it before. | |||
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" They contribute more than you ever could by employing people , paying tax which in turn funds the NHS and education. Envy is a dreadful trait. It's very unprofessional to make matters personal, you know. " I'm not getting paid for this. | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. i work 6-2 in John Lewis warehouse if i lived on my own i wouldn't have enough to pay my bills rent and buy food no matter what we will always be slaves to system no matter what we do for a living or how much money we earn I disagree. I am a slave to no one. I work when I want , where I want. Go on holiday when I want. I think you'll find that probably makes you part of the oppressors then. Your either with us or against us. Vive le revolution Worker of the world unite, you have nothing.... blah blah blah. We've heard it all before. Hey remember he's the not very well read type... Maybe he hasn't heard it before. " I can only assume from your ramblings that you have been drinking or you are in a cantankerous mood. | |||
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"But those people who have all that money and pay people just enough to live could pay more but just think of them selves and their bank balance " Who are these billionaire 'people'? In the case of John Lewis, all the profit goes to the co-operative owners. That's you in this case. There is know billionaire owner. It's also similar for most large companies. There is no big fat guy, sitting in a fur lined coat, smoking a big fat cigar, taking all the profit. Most large companies are owned by share holders. And most shares are held by Pensions funds. The reality is that most of the profits made by large cooperate companies goes to either building up pensions or paying out pensions for and to normal, ordinary, hard working people around the world. I think it's you who needs to wake up to what is really going on in the world. | |||
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" They contribute more than you ever could by employing people , paying tax which in turn funds the NHS and education. Envy is a dreadful trait. It's very unprofessional to make matters personal, you know. I'm not getting paid for this. " Petty as well as personal, charming. If we continue to adopt your worldview, and further measures aren't put in place to curb the clearly out-of-control world of the mega-wealthy, humanity will be led to ruin. | |||
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" They contribute more than you ever could by employing people , paying tax which in turn funds the NHS and education. Envy is a dreadful trait. It's very unprofessional to make matters personal, you know. I'm not getting paid for this. Petty as well as personal, charming. If we continue to adopt your worldview, and further measures aren't put in place to curb the clearly out-of-control world of the mega-wealthy, humanity will be led to ruin." You'll have to grow a thicker skin if you think that's getting personal. | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. i work 6-2 in John Lewis warehouse if i lived on my own i wouldn't have enough to pay my bills rent and buy food no matter what we will always be slaves to system no matter what we do for a living or how much money we earn I disagree. I am a slave to no one. I work when I want , where I want. Go on holiday when I want. I think you'll find that probably makes you part of the oppressors then. Your either with us or against us. Vive le revolution Worker of the world unite, you have nothing.... blah blah blah. We've heard it all before. Hey remember he's the not very well read type... Maybe he hasn't heard it before. I can only assume from your ramblings that you have been drinking or you are in a cantankerous mood. " ..Both I find my drinking these days makes me cantankerous | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. i work 6-2 in John Lewis warehouse if i lived on my own i wouldn't have enough to pay my bills rent and buy food no matter what we will always be slaves to system no matter what we do for a living or how much money we earn I disagree. I am a slave to no one. I work when I want , where I want. Go on holiday when I want. I think you'll find that probably makes you part of the oppressors then. Your either with us or against us. Vive le revolution Worker of the world unite, you have nothing.... blah blah blah. We've heard it all before. Hey remember he's the not very well read type... Maybe he hasn't heard it before. I can only assume from your ramblings that you have been drinking or you are in a cantankerous mood. ..Both I find my drinking these days makes me cantankerous " | |||
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"But those people who have all that money and pay people just enough to live could pay more but just think of them selves and their bank balance Who are these billionaire 'people'? In the case of John Lewis, all the profit goes to the co-operative owners. That's you in this case. There is know billionaire owner. It's also similar for most large companies. There is no big fat guy, sitting in a fur lined coat, smoking a big fat cigar, taking all the profit. Most large companies are owned by share holders. And most shares are held by Pensions funds. The reality is that most of the profits made by large cooperate companies goes to either building up pensions or paying out pensions for and to normal, ordinary, hard working people around the world. I think it's you who needs to wake up to what is really going on in the world." . Most shares are not held by pension firms! | |||
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"But those people who have all that money and pay people just enough to live could pay more but just think of them selves and their bank balance Some probably do, others may pay their employees really well. Would you want to live in a communist state ? Isn't that supposed to be equal, but those that lead it make sure those they consider lower are equal but poor! Whilst they sit there thinking " I'm alright Jack." Doesn't ever work ! but that's how it is now we keep being told we are equal but sadly that is not the case " Actually you are not told you are equal. You may be told you are equal under the law (which is mostly true). And you may be told that you have equal opportunity or an equal right to opportunities (which is not really true yet). You might even be told you are equal in the sight of God (which is ever completely true or complete bollocks, you decide). But no one, in truth, has told you, or will tell you, that you equal. Equal means the same and everyone is not the same. Each person is unique and different and, as such, can never all be equal. | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money " if there were no billionaires where do you think would get a job or money to live off, or do you think the billionaires should share there money with you so you can sit on your arse ? | |||
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"damn those big companies and all the jobs they have destroyed by being more efficient and larger scaled than the old ways.. Burn those nasty billionaires like Bill Gates - He doesn't need all those $$$ (maybe that's why he's giving them all away???) Bring back the days when we all tilled our own land and milked Daisy out the back... Things change buddy... The world evolves as do the people and the circumstances.. If you want to change your corner of the world and provide a better life for yourself then you need some of the following: Talent Education Vision Luck Money helps but is by no means essential." . Excellent post . You only get out of life what you put in. Does not bother me if some people earn a lot more than me . They probably work longer hours and have taken greater risks and are more talented . I am financially secure and in good health which is what matter to me . Does the original poster also think that it is unfair that some people are better looking than others . | |||
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"Tea coffee and cocoa are produced by workers economically tied to the plantations " No one is saying that slavery does not exist. We are saying that the OP is not a slave. We are saying he has choice and opportunity. He may not have had or have now as many choices and opportunities as some; I don't know. But he still has some. To the OP I'd say this. You probably can't change the world. You probably can't change other people but you can change yourself. If what you are doing is not producing the results you want then do something different. And I know that's easy to say. I also know that's difficult to do but it is the only thing you can definitely do that will make change for you. | |||
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"The financial system has stealthy enslaved our species and now we are being used as currency slaves. We work from 9 to 5 every day, in boring and depressing environments, not stimulated by anything creative or constructive.just scrapping enough to live. The owner of wall mart his children have the same amount of money as 156 million of the poorest Americans McDonald workers have to claim food stamps because their wages don't give them enough to survive its about time we stood up and done something about this " I enjoy my role and make an effort every day to improve things . You cannot afford to take a negative attitude if you want to enjoy life and be successfully. No one has to use Walmart if they think the owner is too wealthy . The fact that lots do means they are not bothered. | |||
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"I don't work 9-5 My work environment isn't boring or depressing. I'm challenged and stimulated everyday. I'm not just scraping by. " Same here. The world is bloody tough, but there are clues in history that has taught us we do have choices. If we don't want the boring, mind numbing 9-5 then it's up to ourselves to make that choice. It's not the Victorian times anymore. We have so much information at our fingertips one could change his/her lifestyle so much easier now than 20 years ago. Blame is a waste of time, it leads to nowhere but further frustration when no positive action takes place. -Mr. B | |||
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"This thread intrigues me. I don't have a lot of money and sometimes I scrape by. I don't consider myself poor as I have everything I need and a little more. I have been in a worse of state and I have been in a better off state. I'm no slave to the system and I don't think anyone is. We all have the power to improve what we have in our lives if we just stop expecting the government to bail is out with benefits because we just can't be arsed to work. I've lived off benefits and never did I struggle with my basic needs. I don't smoke I stopped drinking I had friends over or went to theirs for entertainment. I was happy I was fed and I was warm. I never begrudged someone with more that earned what they had because they deserve what they work for. Why should it be down to anyone but me to change my circumstances? People always complain how they don't have enough even when they do earn more than the national average. It's just greed. I'm not greedy and I strive to support my family as do most. When I do better why should it be my responsibility to help my less fortunate neighbour? If one man can make it there is no reason the next man can't. People need to except they they are victim to their own circumstances. If they don't like what they have then they should change their circumstances so they do. It is after all your life so if you don't like it then do what needs doing so that you do. No one that works hard should have to give up what they have to help someone that doesn't. The Beckhams are admirable in what they did abd I would do similar in the same situation but no one should feel they have to as it is not their responsibility to help someone less fortunate. An act of kindness is never a bad thing but never something anyone is duty bound to do " | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx" ...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites. | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money The Soviet union shows that communism was no better or anymore successful. We live in a capitalist society and that is unlikely to change, so make the best possible world for yourself and your loved ones and if you can help someone else along the way then great. Communism never works, because people don't know how to use it properly. They are still stuck in the "me me me " mindset. It can never work when you have people running it that are capitalists at heart." I always find the argument that their is something wrong with people doing what is in their own best interests totally bazar. Surely if every one does what is in their own best interests then the best interest of the majority are being served? Are you really saying that people should not what is in their own best interests. How does that work? If every only did what was in the best interests of someone else surly we would end up with only the interests of a minority being served? Please explain to me exactly what you mean. | |||
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"If someone is consistently bringing in revenue in excess of £1,000,000 per week to their company (be that a football club, movie production company or investment firm etc etc etc...) them can't u also argue that they've 'earned' that £250,000 per week?? Look at Beckham. He was on stupid money at PSG, he didn't need it, so he gave it away. I respect people who don't need it "giving it away", though I'd like to know precisely where it's going. And no. No one "earns" 250k per week in my mind. Even if you ran the world. Measures should be put in place to prevent any one person having that kind of money." Why? Elaborate please | |||
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"substitute "survival of the fittest" with "natural selection" and you still get the same result. And debates about terminology are irrelevant when the phenomenon can actually be observed in society. It all just goes back to what I've been trying to make stick in this discussion. Paradigmatic change will not happen by changing laws, changing governments. It will happen when every individual starts to live their lives according to what is best for the human species, and not themselves. But that carries with it a lot of other, scary implications So basically, we're screwed. Ah, to be human! I don't see looking after my fellow man and sharing my food with him as scary. It sounds rather nice. Read "Brave new world" by Huxley and I think you'll get what I mean. To only care for the collective means you lose a great deal of your individual identity. And you may have to sacrifice yourself for the good of the species." I have, and 1984 et al.. | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money The Soviet union shows that communism was no better or anymore successful. We live in a capitalist society and that is unlikely to change, so make the best possible world for yourself and your loved ones and if you can help someone else along the way then great. Communism never works, because people don't know how to use it properly. They are still stuck in the "me me me " mindset. It can never work when you have people running it that are capitalists at heart. I always find the argument that their is something wrong with people doing what is in their own best interests totally bazar. Surely if every one does what is in their own best interests then the best interest of the majority are being served? Are you really saying that people should not what is in their own best interests. How does that work? If every only did what was in the best interests of someone else surly we would end up with only the interests of a minority being served? Please explain to me exactly what you mean." . He means psychos who wish to murder you in your sleep tonight because it's in their interest to take your tv can't because society says so... It's a concept dreamt up by man, like communism or maximum wage limits. | |||
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" I have, and 1984 et al.." Er, my original comment was directed at another guy | |||
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" I'll use Beckham as an example as he has been mentioned above. If he sells shirts , books , magazines , dvd's and other such image rights and if Adidas , Nike or reebok want to use his image to sell a product where should the money go if not to him. And a man who has built a company that turns over a million a week why can he not pay himself substantially ? Because there are people starving to death, and facing terrible human rights abuses across the globe. With the rewards success brings, you have an additional responsibility to see that money being put to good use. Not overindulge, Wolf of Wall Street style." Whilst I like your reasoned argument, rather than the ranting from some, I really don't believe that paying Beckham or Gates any less money would do anything to eliminate world hunger. And, in this context, human rights violations are totally irrelevant. Sorry, I've liked most of your posts on this thread but on this one you're way of target. | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites." ??? conversations mentioning capitalism, communism etc?? | |||
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" I respect people who don't need it "giving it away", though I'd like to know precisely where it's going. And no. No one "earns" 250k per week in my mind. Even if you ran the world. Measures should be put in place to prevent any one person having that kind of money. Why? Elaborate please" Why? Because in short, I don't think we're a very efficient civilisation. I don't think it's right that people can have money that can last one hundred lifetimes, and there are others who know nothing but suffering. I can put it another way. Some of the most important jobs in the world (doctor, nurse, lawyer, engineer, policeman, fireman, soldier) have wages that are a tiny fraction of what some people earn. There is a naivety, I think, in presuming that those who are super wealthy MUST have earned it, and should be left to their own devices regardless of the public policy argument that calls for their help in eradicating poverty. And if you think that they need all that wealth to keep providing people with jobs and keep the economy going, I strongly disagree. There are a few who help fuel the economy, and some generously give to charity. But tar them all with the same paintbrush? That's a generalisation. | |||
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" 'A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man' " Jebediah Springfield | |||
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" I'll use Beckham as an example as he has been mentioned above. If he sells shirts , books , magazines , dvd's and other such image rights and if Adidas , Nike or reebok want to use his image to sell a product where should the money go if not to him. And a man who has built a company that turns over a million a week why can he not pay himself substantially ? Because there are people starving to death, and facing terrible human rights abuses across the globe. With the rewards success brings, you have an additional responsibility to see that money being put to good use. Not overindulge, Wolf of Wall Street style. Whilst I like your reasoned argument, rather than the ranting from some, I really don't believe that paying Beckham or Gates any less money would do anything to eliminate world hunger. And, in this context, human rights violations are totally irrelevant. Sorry, I've liked most of your posts on this thread but on this one you're way of target. " . Well it would depend what you did with bill gates wealth... If you bought a shed load of TV,s I'm guessing it would do nothing. But if you bought 30 billion dollars worth of bananas? | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites. ??? conversations mentioning capitalism, communism etc?? " .ahh the big c words. I don't like them myself... Although there's quite a few ..... On here... Metaphorically and actually | |||
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" Like what?" Oh dear, there is no independant thinking anymore! They win then. Kiss your childrens freedom goodbye... | |||
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" Whilst I like your reasoned argument, rather than the ranting from some, I really don't believe that paying Beckham or Gates any less money would do anything to eliminate world hunger. And, in this context, human rights violations are totally irrelevant. Sorry, I've liked most of your posts on this thread but on this one you're way of target. " Why so? I'm not necessarily making a UK-centric (or even Western world centric) argument. Human rights abuses are certainly relevant in other countries, where the super rich are diplomats and politicians (China springs to mind). And as for world hunger...if paying the super rich less (or, what I actually meant, placing oversight measures upon them) would accomplish nothing, then what on earth is Bob Geldof pranging on about? If the combined, unused wealth of all the millionaires and billionaires isn't enough, how can the odd £10 from everyone in the country be enough? | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites. ??? conversations mentioning capitalism, communism etc?? .ahh the big c words. I don't like them myself... Although there's quite a few ..... On here... Metaphorically and actually " lol yes there are a few! Some I can think of more than others!! but I still don't seem to be able to see your point?!! x | |||
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"Op if you don't like your job, or consider yourself underpaid, get a different job. Companies only pay low wages because people are willing to work for them. " . I think he was speaking metaphorically hence the "we" or he could be schizophrenic... It's a 50/50 call | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites. ??? conversations mentioning capitalism, communism etc?? .ahh the big c words. I don't like them myself... Although there's quite a few ..... On here... Metaphorically and actually lol yes there are a few! Some I can think of more than others!! but I still don't seem to be able to see your point?!! x " ..There's never a point after a bottle of red... Although I do fancy going ice skating | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites. ??? conversations mentioning capitalism, communism etc?? .ahh the big c words. I don't like them myself... Although there's quite a few ..... On here... Metaphorically and actually lol yes there are a few! Some I can think of more than others!! but I still don't seem to be able to see your point?!! x ..There's never a point after a bottle of red... Although I do fancy going ice skating " having had a couple of vodkas I will join you and will be up for the Bolero!! xx | |||
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" Whilst I like your reasoned argument, rather than the ranting from some, I really don't believe that paying Beckham or Gates any less money would do anything to eliminate world hunger. And, in this context, human rights violations are totally irrelevant. Sorry, I've liked most of your posts on this thread but on this one you're way of target. Why so? I'm not necessarily making a UK-centric (or even Western world centric) argument. Human rights abuses are certainly relevant in other countries, where the super rich are diplomats and politicians (China springs to mind). And as for world hunger...if paying the super rich less (or, what I actually meant, placing oversight measures upon them) would accomplish nothing, then what on earth is Bob Geldof pranging on about? If the combined, unused wealth of all the millionaires and billionaires isn't enough, how can the odd £10 from everyone in the country be enough? " ..oooo you're good .. I like that so much I may use it myself in circumstances very similar to this one but involving myself and my pub landlord | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites. ??? conversations mentioning capitalism, communism etc?? .ahh the big c words. I don't like them myself... Although there's quite a few ..... On here... Metaphorically and actually lol yes there are a few! Some I can think of more than others!! but I still don't seem to be able to see your point?!! x ..There's never a point after a bottle of red... Although I do fancy going ice skating having had a couple of vodkas I will join you and will be up for the Bolero!! xx " ..Bolero..I fall at the end better than they do!. Or bolero like dudley Moore | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites. ??? conversations mentioning capitalism, communism etc?? .ahh the big c words. I don't like them myself... Although there's quite a few ..... On here... Metaphorically and actually lol yes there are a few! Some I can think of more than others!! but I still don't seem to be able to see your point?!! x ..There's never a point after a bottle of red... Although I do fancy going ice skating having had a couple of vodkas I will join you and will be up for the Bolero!! xx ..Bolero..I fall at the end better than they do!. Or bolero like dudley Moore " I still have to shield my eyes from "10" as reminds me of my child hood and trying to watch whilst parents were around! as for falling at the end I guarantee I would do a better job and would still have my fag/chips intact!!! x xx | |||
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"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds... Viva la revoluçion! Siempre !" ...These song's of freedom are all we ever have. . I don't expect you to understand after you caused so much pain But the again you're not to blame your just a human, a victim of the insane We're afrain of everyone, afraid of the sun Isolation The Sun will never disappear but the world my not have many years Isolation | |||
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"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds... Viva la revoluçion! Siempre !...These song's of freedom are all we ever have. . I don't expect you to understand after you caused so much pain But the again you're not to blame your just a human, a victim of the insane We're afrain of everyone, afraid of the sun Isolation The Sun will never disappear but the world my not have many years Isolation " tra la la la la!! | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites. ??? conversations mentioning capitalism, communism etc?? .ahh the big c words. I don't like them myself... Although there's quite a few ..... On here... Metaphorically and actually lol yes there are a few! Some I can think of more than others!! but I still don't seem to be able to see your point?!! x ..There's never a point after a bottle of red... Although I do fancy going ice skating having had a couple of vodkas I will join you and will be up for the Bolero!! xx ..Bolero..I fall at the end better than they do!. Or bolero like dudley Moore I still have to shield my eyes from "10" as reminds me of my child hood and trying to watch whilst parents were around! as for falling at the end I guarantee I would do a better job and would still have my fag/chips intact!!! x xx" ... Your not going to believe this but... Last week I went ice skating... At around this time, I may have been tipsy i can't remember from all the drink I'd had, but anyhoo believe it or not they wouldn't let me smoke while skating, which is ridiculous as there's no fire risk at all | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites. ??? conversations mentioning capitalism, communism etc?? .ahh the big c words. I don't like them myself... Although there's quite a few ..... On here... Metaphorically and actually lol yes there are a few! Some I can think of more than others!! but I still don't seem to be able to see your point?!! x ..There's never a point after a bottle of red... Although I do fancy going ice skating having had a couple of vodkas I will join you and will be up for the Bolero!! xx ..Bolero..I fall at the end better than they do!. Or bolero like dudley Moore I still have to shield my eyes from "10" as reminds me of my child hood and trying to watch whilst parents were around! as for falling at the end I guarantee I would do a better job and would still have my fag/chips intact!!! x xx... Your not going to believe this but... Last week I went ice skating... At around this time, I may have been tipsy i can't remember from all the drink I'd had, but anyhoo believe it or not they wouldn't let me smoke while skating, which is ridiculous as there's no fire risk at all " possibly because you were in an indoor arena where all of the children skating were highly inflammable???? !! | |||
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" Whilst I like your reasoned argument, rather than the ranting from some, I really don't believe that paying Beckham or Gates any less money would do anything to eliminate world hunger. And, in this context, human rights violations are totally irrelevant. Sorry, I've liked most of your posts on this thread but on this one you're way of target. Why so? I'm not necessarily making a UK-centric (or even Western world centric) argument. Human rights abuses are certainly relevant in other countries, where the super rich are diplomats and politicians (China springs to mind). And as for world hunger...if paying the super rich less (or, what I actually meant, placing oversight measures upon them) would accomplish nothing, then what on earth is Bob Geldof pranging on about? If the combined, unused wealth of all the millionaires and billionaires isn't enough, how can the odd £10 from everyone in the country be enough? " Well ok then include human rights violations if you want but I personally thing that including that defocuses the issue and sends your main augment of down a side track. I think if you stick to the arguments based on wealth and wealth distribution most people can see how that might relate to hunger and poverty. It's a much bigger leap to see how it relates directly to human rights violations and torcher. I didn't say in my comment that I did not agree with your argument (I don't but we can argue that later). I said it was off target. In other words it defocuses your main argument and does not help to make your main point. But it's your argument and point so feel free to make it the way you want. | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites. ??? conversations mentioning capitalism, communism etc?? .ahh the big c words. I don't like them myself... Although there's quite a few ..... On here... Metaphorically and actually lol yes there are a few! Some I can think of more than others!! but I still don't seem to be able to see your point?!! x ..There's never a point after a bottle of red... Although I do fancy going ice skating having had a couple of vodkas I will join you and will be up for the Bolero!! xx ..Bolero..I fall at the end better than they do!. Or bolero like dudley Moore I still have to shield my eyes from "10" as reminds me of my child hood and trying to watch whilst parents were around! as for falling at the end I guarantee I would do a better job and would still have my fag/chips intact!!! x xx... Your not going to believe this but... Last week I went ice skating... At around this time, I may have been tipsy i can't remember from all the drink I'd had, but anyhoo believe it or not they wouldn't let me smoke while skating, which is ridiculous as there's no fire risk at all possibly because you were in an indoor arena where all of the children skating were highly inflammable???? !!" . Ha that's madness giving kids tins of petrol... No it was apparently outlawed years ago, but as I've been living in 1986(the greatest year there ever was) I was unaware and lit up but as a moral to the story. 1 you never quite know when you've finished exhaling when it's that cold . 2 don't try and out skate non smokers, there'll always catch you | |||
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" But it's your argument and point so feel free to make it the way you want. " General attack on the wealthy classes it is, then! Nah, I'm tired of this now, I'm off to bed | |||
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"OMG I lost the will to live half way through reading the replies as they got in to politics, communism etc etc!! As or the OP like some have said before.... it is simple, if you are not happy in your job with JL then look for another and...like has been mentioned....if you are not happy with your pay level then consider studying something to further yourself....if you are not willing to do this then suck it up and live with it! It is life!! xx...Politics and communism ... No wonder you almost lost the will t... Where was I. Oh yes that's life!. Get a billionaires job you bum and stop dossing around on sex web sites. ??? conversations mentioning capitalism, communism etc?? .ahh the big c words. I don't like them myself... Although there's quite a few ..... On here... Metaphorically and actually lol yes there are a few! Some I can think of more than others!! but I still don't seem to be able to see your point?!! x ..There's never a point after a bottle of red... Although I do fancy going ice skating having had a couple of vodkas I will join you and will be up for the Bolero!! xx ..Bolero..I fall at the end better than they do!. Or bolero like dudley Moore I still have to shield my eyes from "10" as reminds me of my child hood and trying to watch whilst parents were around! as for falling at the end I guarantee I would do a better job and would still have my fag/chips intact!!! x xx... Your not going to believe this but... Last week I went ice skating... At around this time, I may have been tipsy i can't remember from all the drink I'd had, but anyhoo believe it or not they wouldn't let me smoke while skating, which is ridiculous as there's no fire risk at all possibly because you were in an indoor arena where all of the children skating were highly inflammable???? !!. Ha that's madness giving kids tins of petrol... No it was apparently outlawed years ago, but as I've been living in 1986(the greatest year there ever was) I was unaware and lit up but as a moral to the story. 1 you never quite know when you've finished exhaling when it's that cold . 2 don't try and out skate non smokers, there'll always catch you " well I wasn't thinking of them being given cans of petrol...more of them already being soaked in it.... as for the non smoking skaters....just trip the fuckers up...always worth a smile!! | |||
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" But it's your argument and point so feel free to make it the way you want. General attack on the wealthy classes it is, then! Nah, I'm tired of this now, I'm off to bed " The winner with two falls and a submission of humility.... I would have just said. It's all bollocks anyway but you've got a better grasp of big words and all I've got to grasp is my merlot. Still I like these little squares with a tetate and a touché... Oooo look foreign words somebody shoot me for being hypocritical. I'm d*unk and off too bed. Arvoire. Arrivederci and bonjour | |||
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" But it's your argument and point so feel free to make it the way you want. General attack on the wealthy classes it is, then! Nah, I'm tired of this now, I'm off to bed " Me to but the thread will still be here tomorrow. | |||
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"The financial system has stealthy enslaved our species and now we are being used as currency slaves. We work from 9 to 5 every day, in boring and depressing environments, not stimulated by anything creative or constructive.just scrapping enough to live. The owner of wall mart his children have the same amount of money as 156 million of the poorest Americans McDonald workers have to claim food stamps because their wages don't give them enough to survive its about time we stood up and done something about this " Wallmart own ASDA and is a huge company. Respect for your passionate post but having come back from living in the USA for last 7 years. I'd say getting enough people to boycott McDonalds or Wallmart too make a difference is almost impossible. Sorry if this has been mentioned loads of posts here. | |||
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"Op if you don't like your job, or consider yourself underpaid, get a different job. Companies only pay low wages because people are willing to work for them. . I think he was speaking metaphorically hence the "we" or he could be schizophrenic... It's a 50/50 call " Could get multiple jobs of schizophrenic. Or pass on the advice and a good example to the metaphorical masses. | |||
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"Op if you don't like your job, or consider yourself underpaid, get a different job. Companies only pay low wages because people are willing to work for them. . I think he was speaking metaphorically hence the "we" or he could be schizophrenic... It's a 50/50 call Could get multiple jobs of schizophrenic. Or pass on the advice and a good example to the metaphorical masses. " no im not schizophrenic and i hate my job not because im underpaid but because its depressing and unchallenging but its a job it pays the bills that all of us will be paying for the rest of our lives the rent or mortgage and the basic necessities we need to live but hay as you have all said that's life well i want to make my life mean something not just exist and fade away | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money The Soviet union shows that communism was no better or anymore successful. We live in a capitalist society and that is unlikely to change, so make the best possible world for yourself and your loved ones and if you can help someone else along the way then great. Communism never works, because people don't know how to use it properly. They are still stuck in the "me me me " mindset. It can never work when you have people running it that are capitalists at heart. Communism doesn't work as innovation is based on greed and laziness. If the human race was selfless we wouldn't be dominate It's actually quite simple Innovation isn't based on greed or laziness. Need is a far greater driving force. Need isn't a driving force. Need is a subjective desire which has been forced to deal with an issue which has came out the blue. Innovation or invention comes from the desire to do something new, easier more productive. While also lessening the workload on a person and equally a positive pay off. Hence innovation needs greed and laziness. The only innovation through need is through time of hardship or war. In which there is a desire of laziness as you are loosing man power so need a workforce that can so more for less" So the need in that case is a greater driving force, as it is real need, rather than a would like. It all depends on your personal definitions of want and need. | |||
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"But they wouldn't have to do those things if everyone was equal and there was no billionaires that don't need all that money The Soviet union shows that communism was no better or anymore successful. We live in a capitalist society and that is unlikely to change, so make the best possible world for yourself and your loved ones and if you can help someone else along the way then great. Communism never works, because people don't know how to use it properly. They are still stuck in the "me me me " mindset. It can never work when you have people running it that are capitalists at heart. I always find the argument that their is something wrong with people doing what is in their own best interests totally bazar. Surely if every one does what is in their own best interests then the best interest of the majority are being served? Are you really saying that people should not what is in their own best interests. How does that work? If every only did what was in the best interests of someone else surly we would end up with only the interests of a minority being served? Please explain to me exactly what you mean." By only doing what is in your own best interests, you will inevitably shit on others. Then someone will be shitting on you. Everyone is antagonised. Why? Just so you can say "this is mine all mine"? | |||
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" I have, and 1984 et al.. Er, my original comment was directed at another guy " I've read 1984 many times. I can honestly say we are already well down the path. We just have much more devious governors. | |||
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"i hate my job not because im underpaid but because its depressing and unchallenging but its a job it pays the bills that all of us will be paying for the rest of our lives the rent or mortgage and the basic necessities we need to live " You are able to choose your job, you are also able to choose what you consider necessities in life. Some do choose to live without a home, some want a spacious home with all the trimmings. The more you want the more you have to work to get it. Others don't get the opportunity you take for granted. Travel even short trips and look at how others exist, your "slave to the machine" line is hard to take when you have seen starving children sheltering from the environment in makeshift shelters. Bottom line is you are a wealthy and lucky individual. With every opportunity to make yourself a long and comfortable life, so do it. Or don't! Just don't whine when you have comfort and safety so easily available. | |||
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"i hate my job not because im underpaid but because its depressing and unchallenging but its a job it pays the bills that all of us will be paying for the rest of our lives the rent or mortgage and the basic necessities we need to live You are able to choose your job, you are also able to choose what you consider necessities in life. Some do choose to live without a home, some want a spacious home with all the trimmings. The more you want the more you have to work to get it. Others don't get the opportunity you take for granted. Travel even short trips and look at how others exist, your "slave to the machine" line is hard to take when you have seen starving children sheltering from the environment in makeshift shelters. Bottom line is you are a wealthy and lucky individual. With every opportunity to make yourself a long and comfortable life, so do it. Or don't! Just don't whine when you have comfort and safety so easily available. " food and water are necessity's and clothing but come on who needs an £80 jumper when one that's cheaper dose exactly the same thing its consumerist greed influenced by main stream media | |||
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"food and water are necessity's and clothing but come on who needs an £80 jumper when one that's cheaper dose exactly the same thing its consumerist greed influenced by main stream media " The people who make, transport & sell the jumper for £80 need it to be £80 so everyone can get paid, then everyone can have food and water. | |||
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"food and water are necessity's and clothing but come on who needs an £80 jumper when one that's cheaper dose exactly the same thing its consumerist greed influenced by main stream media The people who make, transport & sell the jumper for £80 need it to be £80 so everyone can get paid, then everyone can have food and water. " if they were cheaper they would sell more thus making more money thus being able to still pay people but you have brands using children to make their stuff for pennies so the company can make a higher profit that's how it is | |||
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"food and water are necessity's and clothing but come on who needs an £80 jumper when one that's cheaper dose exactly the same thing its consumerist greed influenced by main stream media The people who make, transport & sell the jumper for £80 need it to be £80 so everyone can get paid, then everyone can have food and water. if they were cheaper they would sell more thus making more money thus being able to still pay people but you have brands using children to make their stuff for pennies so the company can make a higher profit that's how it is " Hang on. You work for a company that sells £80 jumpers. If you don't agree with that, go and work for Primark, I hear they recruit this time of year | |||
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"food and water are necessity's and clothing but come on who needs an £80 jumper when one that's cheaper dose exactly the same thing its consumerist greed influenced by main stream media The people who make, transport & sell the jumper for £80 need it to be £80 so everyone can get paid, then everyone can have food and water. if they were cheaper they would sell more thus making more money thus being able to still pay people but you have brands using children to make their stuff for pennies so the company can make a higher profit that's how it is Hang on. You work for a company that sells £80 jumpers. If you don't agree with that, go and work for Primark, I hear they recruit this time of year " yea i know i do but its coming up to Xmas soo it will do for now it dose not mean i am happy about working there im a cake decorator but im struggling to start up my own business | |||
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"food and water are necessity's and clothing but come on who needs an £80 jumper when one that's cheaper dose exactly the same thing its consumerist greed influenced by main stream media The people who make, transport & sell the jumper for £80 need it to be £80 so everyone can get paid, then everyone can have food and water. if they were cheaper they would sell more thus making more money thus being able to still pay people but you have brands using children to make their stuff for pennies so the company can make a higher profit that's how it is Hang on. You work for a company that sells £80 jumpers. If you don't agree with that, go and work for Primark, I hear they recruit this time of year yea i know i do but its coming up to Xmas soo it will do for now it dose not mean i am happy about working there im a cake decorator but im struggling to start up my own business " Well I wish you success when you do. I hope you wont be one of these capitalist types that sell cakes for £80 when they only cost £2.40 to make | |||
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"food and water are necessity's and clothing but come on who needs an £80 jumper when one that's cheaper dose exactly the same thing its consumerist greed influenced by main stream media The people who make, transport & sell the jumper for £80 need it to be £80 so everyone can get paid, then everyone can have food and water. if they were cheaper they would sell more thus making more money thus being able to still pay people but you have brands using children to make their stuff for pennies so the company can make a higher profit that's how it is Hang on. You work for a company that sells £80 jumpers. If you don't agree with that, go and work for Primark, I hear they recruit this time of year yea i know i do but its coming up to Xmas soo it will do for now it dose not mean i am happy about working there im a cake decorator but im struggling to start up my own business Well I wish you success when you do. I hope you wont be one of these capitalist types that sell cakes for £80 when they only cost £2.40 to make " And you'll obviously pay your staff more than minimum wage and give a good percentage of your profits to charity. | |||
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"food and water are necessity's and clothing but come on who needs an £80 jumper when one that's cheaper dose exactly the same thing its consumerist greed influenced by main stream media The people who make, transport & sell the jumper for £80 need it to be £80 so everyone can get paid, then everyone can have food and water. if they were cheaper they would sell more thus making more money thus being able to still pay people but you have brands using children to make their stuff for pennies so the company can make a higher profit that's how it is Hang on. You work for a company that sells £80 jumpers. If you don't agree with that, go and work for Primark, I hear they recruit this time of year yea i know i do but its coming up to Xmas soo it will do for now it dose not mean i am happy about working there im a cake decorator but im struggling to start up my own business Well I wish you success when you do. I hope you wont be one of these capitalist types that sell cakes for £80 when they only cost £2.40 to make And you'll obviously pay your staff more than minimum wage and give a good percentage of your profits to charity. " yea when i employ staff and no i would just give the homeless in my area food and hot drinks i don't just want to make cakes i would also do hot food and a cup cake cost all of around 80p to make i would give to charity but i would have to see the benefit that my donations make | |||
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