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UKIP 2

By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

Sorry, got carried away with countering some of the things said in UKIP Thread that I ended up filling it up. And I didn't even get half way down. LOL

So here's another one to you can all keep have a bash at it (or supporting it).

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Sorry, got carried away with countering some of the things said in UKIP Thread that I ended up filling it up. And I didn't even get half way down. LOL

So here's another one to you can all keep have a bash at it (or supporting it)."

_otlovefun42 GERMANY & SPAIN:

We can too and fro all day but the bottom line is simple.

If you are happy with net immigration running at around a quarter of a million per year. Happy with giving around 50 million quid a day to a bunch of unelected bureaucrats. Happy that faceless judges in a foreign court can say which killers, rapists, paedophiles, terrorists Etc. we can or cannot deport. Happy that the same unelected bureaucrats can do their best to stifle or even destroy the financial sector in London, and before anyone get's on the greedy banker high horse, remember that it is only the taxes from the financial sector that keeps the country afloat. So if you are happy with all of that, then vote Lib/Lab/Con.

If not then vote Ukip and get the return of Grammar schools, the scrapping of the HS2 white elephant, and enough power stations to keep the lights on instead of useless windmills as a bonus. "

And when we leave the EU and those EU Immigrants are told to 'Go Home' do you really thing that they'll just go and say 'That's alright we'll leave Britain but you can stay in our countries. If you're going to voting UKIP I'd put what ever accommodation you have in Spain & Germany on the market now while you can still get a good price for them.

Yes that is one you posted on the other thread.

I fully expect that some would be told to "go home" as you say. Roma beggars and pickpockets would be a good place to start. Even the French and Germans are looking at a way around that one.

Anyone convicted of a serious criminal offence should be instantly sent back to their country of origin as should anyone supporting terrorism, although I have to admit that most of them are home grown.

I have no worries about my position. Firstly, as I am married to a German and have been a resident here for many years I would be fully entitled to stay even if I was from outside the EU. Secondly, anyone with a scrap of knowledge about the Spanish property market would know that the boom of the early "naughty's" was fuelled by British cash and, although many have now sold up and left, there are still many hundreds of thousands still there. The Spanish have many faults but they are not stupid. The property market has started to show some signs of recovery since the crash and the last thing they would do is anything to jeopardise it. Ordering a few hundred thousand Brits to "go home" and alienating around 10 million British tourists every year wouldn't jeopardise it, it would crucify it. Especially since the collapse of the Rouble has already taken most of the Russians out of the market.

Not the slightest bit worried at all.

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

Rather than praising or bashing any particular party I'd like to see something done to increase voter turnout,

That way the party that wins will be truly representative of the population, rather than reflecting a minority as it has done for years.

Voter percentages:

1950? 83.9%.

1964? 77.1%.

1979? 76%.

1987? 75.3%.

1997? 71.4%.

2001? 59.4%.

2010? 65.1%

If people want change? Vote.

Seems an awful lot are happy to moan but can't be arsed though.

Is it time to make voting compulsory like

Belgium, Australia and many others?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Many feel that Britain would be better off out of the EU - perhaps establishing stronger and more advantageous trading links with America, India, China et al. Many don't like the loss of sovereignty that being part of a single Europe means. Many don't like British laws being overturned by the European courts. And many don't like the high membership fees!

These are feelings many have had for years. The main political parties have known this too and have been talking of a referendum on EU membership for a long time now. Yet it never happens.

So, it is little wonder that UKIP has prospered while those who want out of Europe have been ignored for such a long time.

The next year promises to be the most interesting and momentous 12 months in British politics for a long, long time. Matt

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"Sorry, got carried away with countering some of the things said in UKIP Thread that I ended up filling it up. And I didn't even get half way down. LOL

So here's another one to you can all keep have a bash at it (or supporting it).

_otlovefun42 GERMANY & SPAIN:

We can too and fro all day but the bottom line is simple.

If not then vote Ukip and get the return of Grammar schools, the scrapping of the HS2 white elephant, and enough power stations to keep the lights on instead of useless windmills as a bonus. "

Yes that is one you posted on the other thread.

I fully expect that some would be told to "go home" as you say. Roma beggars and pickpockets would be a good place to start. Even the French and Germans are looking at a way around that one.

Not the slightest bit worried at all.

I'm pretty sure if we met face to face I would probably agree with you on a lot of things but definitely not on UKIP and the EU. I like to make sure of my facts before answering and, after a long night, I'm way to tiered to go googling things now. But I will get back to you on this, just probably not today.

I'm off to bed now.

PS The 'face to face' was not meant as trying to suggest any meet through this site.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"Many feel that Britain would be better off out of the EU - perhaps establishing stronger and more advantageous trading links with America, India, China et al. Many don't like the loss of sovereignty that being part of a single Europe means. Many don't like British laws being overturned by the European courts. And many don't like the high membership fees!

These are feelings many have had for years. The main political parties have known this too and have been talking of a referendum on EU membership for a long time now. Yet it never happens.

So, it is little wonder that UKIP has prospered while those who want out of Europe have been ignored for such a long time.

The next year promises to be the most interesting and momentous 12 months in British politics for a long, long time. Matt"

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

But, like all separatist and secessionist lobbies around the world, they never accept the result and constantly want another and another and another until they finally get the result they want.

I'm not in favour of referendum on the EU or any other issues. They seldom resolve anything (I bet we'll see another Scottish referendum within the life time of most of us on here) which ever way they go. It will be the same with the EU. If it's a vote to stay in you can bet UKIP and all it's supporters won't accept the final result and will campaign for another with a few years. If it's a vote to come out the people who believe that the EU is good for Britain will start campaigning for another vote to re-enter, especially if things don't turn out all rosy and sweet after we are out (which they won't because our real problems have little to do with EU immigration or paying a relatively small(although I actually think too much) amount of money to EU coffers.

I pay through my taxis for my MP to represent me in Parliament. That includes finding out the facts about something and then voting for what he believes to be my best interests. That's what a representative democracy is. Why should I pay him then have to make the decision for him, especially as I have neither the time nor patients to find out all the facts on any given issue. It would be like buying a dog and then barking yourself.

What I do agree with on is that we should re forge our economic links with other parts of the English Speaking world, especially North America and the Antipodes (Oz and New Zealand etc.) But we don't have to leave the EU to do that. (And I'm not sure having closes economic and social links with India, Africa and Pakistan would do much to defuel the immigration phobia).

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

These are feelings many have had for years. The main political parties have known this too and have been talking of a referendum on EU membership for a long time now. Yet it never happens.

So, it is little wonder that UKIP has prospered while those who want out of Europe have been ignored for such a long time.

The next year promises to be the most interesting and momentous 12 months in British politics for a long, long time. Matt

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

But, like all separatist and secessionist lobbies around the world, they never accept the result and constantly want another and another and another until they finally get the result they want.

A referendum in 1973 to join the EEC is a whole lot different matter to one now whether to stay in. The EU is much bigger now though certainly not necessarily better. The Europe that people voted to join then is vastly different to the one existing now.

We have over those 41 years seen us become less and less of a power financially and politically. Coincidence?

Your faith in MPs is misguided, I'd suggest. Rarely do they vote for your best interest. More often their own.

Time for a referendum - let the people decide. I, for one, never got a chance to vote in 73. I'd like that opportunity now

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"If people want change? Vote."

agree

"Seems an awful lot are happy to moan but can't be arsed though. "

agree

"Is it time to make voting compulsory like Belgium, Australia and many others?"

(thumsDown) Strongly disagree

It's just as much peoples democratic right to not vote as to vote.

I don't agree with their decision not to vote but it's a perfectly democratic decision for then to make. It's even perfectly democratic and right for them 'not to be arsed' about it. That's what freedom is, free to decide for yourself who to vote for, and how 'arsed' you want be about it all and whether you want to spend YOUR time doing anything, including voting, about it.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"A referendum in 1973 to join the EEC is a whole lot different matter to one now whether to stay in. The EU is much bigger now though certainly not necessarily better. The Europe that people voted to join then is vastly different to the one existing now.

We have over those 41 years seen us become less and less of a power financially and politically. Coincidence?

Your faith in MPs is misguided, I'd suggest. Rarely do they vote for your best interest. More often their own.

Time for a referendum - let the people decide. I, for one, never got a chance to vote in 73. I'd like that opportunity now"

We joined the then EEC in 1973 but the referendum was in 1975, 2 years later. Not really relevant the year but it's better to get the facts straight. (I'm not having a go at you about that BTW).

But that's the problem with referendum because things always change. Whether we stay in leave or in 20 years times things will be different again. Do we just keep on having referendum after referendum on the issue, never really being in or out because no one knows what the next referendum will produce. They solve nothing. My argument against referendum has nothing to do with being in or out of the EU and everything to do with it being a bad way to make decisions. And lets face it, the ONLY reason why those wanting to leave the EU want a referendum is because they think they'll win it. I'm in favour of us staying in the EU but, even when the poles showed a large majority in favour of being in the EU, I've always opposed referendum for the reasons I gave above.

And as for us Britain having become less and less of a power financially and politically over the last 41 years. That's just simply not true. You either were not alive or very young in the 1970 and don't remember what it was like. In 1976 Britain had to go 'cap-in-hand' to the IMF to bail us out of debt we couldn't afford. We were in the same situation as Greece is in now. What Financial power was that. There is know way people are worse of financially now than they were then. And political influence. rubbish. I was living in the US in 1980/1 and remember reading in the Washington Post an article which said, and I may not get this exactly right but the gist of it has stayed with me since I read it, "It's doubtful that Britain's new government, lead by a woman, will be able to turn the once mighty country around from it's rapid cause to becoming a bankrupt, back ally of a nation, no better than an East European Soviet satellite state". Not much sign of confidence in Britain's power there, financially or politically.

I'm not misguided. I'm a very knowledgeable person who reads up on a lot of subjects which is why I'm also not easily lead by the baying mob.

It's easy to make a statement saying MPs more often vote for their own best interests rather than ours (not mine or yours but ours). But there is no proof that ALL MPs, or even most, have consistently voted through legislation that favours only MPs and no one else. If you have the proof of this consistent voting for only their own interests then show it. And I don't just mean one or two examples of corruption. I mean consistently, or even mostly, only voting through legislation that is solely in their own interests. And that's not the same thing as passing through legislation that you don't agree with.

But even if this were true being in the EU or out of it would make no difference. If it was true then the hole system of government in Britain would have to be changed and that would have to be done whether we remain in the EU or not.

Whilst I don't agree with having a referendum, because of reasons I've said above and not because I'm in favour of staying in the EU(although I am in favour of that). It seems likely that there will be one and it will solve nothing, make no difference to any of the things you've said above regardless of the result, and no doubt there will be another one 20 -40 years after that. Total waist of time and money. I just hope that, like in Scotland, people will see through the rhetoric and vote accordingly.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Nigel Farage is a former banker and UKIP is a party of bug-eyed ex-Tories with no principles.

More of the same.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"Nigel Farage is a former banker and UKIP is a party of bug-eyed ex-Tories with no principles.

More of the same."

Tories do have principals. I have consistently voted Conservative, I have no plans on changing that now and I have very string principals.

I used to believe that most labour politicians were self seeking populists until I met then and found out that actually wanted was the same as me. They just believed in a different way of achieving it. I'm sure you could rattle of loads of things you believe the Tories have done that have made things worse and I know I can think of loads of things Labour has done that I definitely believe have made things worse for people. But that just means that one of us is right and the other wrong. It does not mean that either of us don't have any principals. You should try talking more (but not arguing, although there is a time for that as well) with people you don't totally agree with. It won't change your view of the world but it will change your view of them.

As for Nigel Farage, I'm not going to make any decision on his principals because I don't have to. I'll fight him and UKIP on their policies and let the people decide which they think is best.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It will be no answer to these problems to vote for a bunch of bigoted, self-interested idiots with no principles or policies, and a self-serving leader who looks and sounds like the Mekon..... (you'll have to be old enough to understand that reference...)

If you believe in a party, but don't like the way that it's going, then stick with it and rage, scream, annoy, pester and generally harass your MP and everybody else until things do change!!!

You can't change politics from the outside - you have to be inside it, and use the system yourself if you want it to work..

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

These are feelings many have had for years. The main political parties have known this too and have been talking of a referendum on EU membership for a long time now. Yet it never happens.

So, it is little wonder that UKIP has prospered while those who want out of Europe have been ignored for such a long time.

The next year promises to be the most interesting and momentous 12 months in British politics for a long, long time. Matt

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

But, like all separatist and secessionist lobbies around the world, they never accept the result and constantly want another and another and another until they finally get the result they want.

Yes we did have a referendum in 1975 but the issue voted on bore no resemblance to joining the EU (in effect a United States of Europe consisting of 28 country's) The Common Market (as it was known then) was nothing more than a customs union of six country's (which increased to nine when Britain Ireland and Denmark joined) Both Wilson, Heath and the majority of our democratically elected representatives assured the British public that joining the "Common Market" was purely about trade and would involve "No loss of sovereignty" Funnily enough it was the left side of politics that was the most vociferous in campaigning against joining with Tony Benn being the leading advocate of staying out (how times change)

Over the years the Common Market has morphed through various treaties (none voted for in the UK) to the European Economic Community (EEC) and now the European Union (EU) During this time most people (myself included) pretty much accepted that it was the right path for Britain.

Some people (again myself included) doubted the wisdom of a single currency (which again nobody voted for) especially after the ERM debacle of the 90's. A few people complained about metrication and loss of fishing grounds, and others joked about straight Banana's, a few more country's joined taking the total to fifteen, but all in all things worked out pretty well.... Until....

May 2004 and January 2007. It might have only started just over ten years ago but it terms of the changes within the EU it could be a lifetime. Championed by Blair (among others) overnight it turned the relatively stable 15 country's into 27 (now 28) Ten of which were former Soviet Bloc basket case economies with low wages, little or no infrastructure, and endemic corruption. Surely anyone with a modicum of intelligence (OK I know, we're talking about politicians here) could/should have foreseen the massive migration westwards and the strains it would put onto unsuspecting communities, not only in Britain but in many other western European country's. However apart from some pitifully short transitional controls, nothing was done.

It is no coincidence that the rise of anti EU feeling across Europe has exploded over the last 10 or so years.

As for referendums and democracy in general. It is interesting to see how the (unelected) powers that be in the EU treat referendum results. Remember the EU constitution? When France (of all country's) and Holland both rejected it at the ballot box, and Denmark was tipped to follow suit. The EU scrapped the constitution, so negating the need for Denmark to vote, but then re wrapped it in the form of the Lisbon treaty and pushed it through without (as they thought) anyone getting a vote on it, but the Irish poked them in the eye.

The Irish constitution demanded a vote on Lisbon and the Irish voted against it. The EU commission were horrified and, not in 10 or 20 years time, instantly demanded another vote until the Irish "got the right answer" Eventually helped by electoral bribery, scare tactics, and millions of EU taxes spent on the most shameful propaganda exercise since Goebells, they got "the right answer" Democracy? My arse.

I would be the first to admit that Ukip haven't got all the answers, I don't even think that Farage would make a good PM (one hell of a leader of the opposition though) I would even prefer Britain to stay in some form of European community, but not one that is completely undemocratic and totally corrupt. We cannot let the established party's ride roughshod over us any longer and if Ukip can change that then I think we should give them the chance.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"It will be no answer to these problems to vote for a bunch of bigoted, self-interested idiots with no principles or policies, and a self-serving leader who looks and sounds like the Mekon..... (you'll have to be old enough to understand that reference...)

If you believe in a party, but don't like the way that it's going, then stick with it and rage, scream, annoy, pester and generally harass your MP and everybody else until things do change!!!

You can't change politics from the outside - you have to be inside it, and use the system yourself if you want it to work..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"'You should try talking more (but not arguing, although there is a time for that as well) with people you don't totally agree with. It won't change your view of the world but it will change your view of them."

That's a pretty patronising response, have to say.

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By *luezuluMan over a year ago

Suffolk

This is without doubt, the best debate on UKIP yet.

No name calling, and some well written posts from both side of the fence.

Most people know which side of the fence I'm on, and that I strongly feel the EU is the most corrupt organisation ever (but only if you take FIFA out of the equation)and I want out of it

If we ever get a referendum on membership of the EU and the British electorate voted to stay, I would gladly walk away and never broach the subject of it again.

I will desist at this stage of writing my usual post when UKIP threads come up

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

I was'nt born in 1973 or 1975 or when-ever the last referendum was on EU membership, so i've never had a say/vote on it. Also the UK's relationship to the EU has changed beyond recognition now when compared to the 1970's. Many people have never had a say or a vote on europe in this country, what happened to democracy?

Can't believe the arrogance of Miliband and Clegg still refusing to offer an EU referendum.

Many people express their opinion on europe in this country at european elections and UKIP always do well in the euro elections, its the only way we have a voice to say we want to leave.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"This is without doubt, the best debate on UKIP yet.

No name calling, and some well written posts from both side of the fence.

Most people know which side of the fence I'm on, and that I strongly feel the EU is the most corrupt organisation ever (but only if you take FIFA out of the equation)and I want out of it

If we ever get a referendum on membership of the EU and the British electorate voted to stay, I would gladly walk away and never broach the subject of it again.

I will desist at this stage of writing my usual post when UKIP threads come up "

Agree about the corruption in the EU, head of the EU commision Jean Claude Juncker is being investigated for tax evasion schemes in his home country Luxembourg. Guess who is heading the investigation? Yes you guessed it Jean Claude Juncker himself, what a fucking joke!!!

No wonder the people of europe have no confidence in the EU.

UKIP and other anti EU parties lead a european parliament motion of censure brought because of Junckers role in tax avoidance schemes in Luxembourg where he was Prime minister for 18 years.

Junckers allies in the centralist parties voted down the motion though, again it stinks to high heaven of corruption, i would actually put them on a level playing field with FIFA when it comes to corruption.

UKIP and other parties had 101 votes in Favour, 88 abstained and 461 voted down the motion.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

Corruption and many other less than favourable traits have and always will be part of what we know as 'politics'..

and politics is part and parcel of every institution, club or whatever we do in business and socially..

'we' are all arguing or debating which of our own preferred brand is better than the other persons and the reality is that 'we' at the coal face are being kept there whilst the establishment and the uber rich keep on getting richer ..

hey ho..

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Corruption and many other less than favourable traits have and always will be part of what we know as 'politics'..

and politics is part and parcel of every institution, club or whatever we do in business and socially..

hey ho.."

Yes there always has and probably always will be some form of corruption in all politics. However the real issue is to what degree and to a certain extent how you would define it.

A back scratch here or a blind eye there, although still wrong, is generally accepted as part and parcel of political life. British politics has been relatively (although not squeaky) clean since the Poulson scandal. Europe however is a completely different animal. While most northern European country's have levels equal to or better than Britain, in the south (Spain Italy and Greece being good examples) and the east (most, if not all, of the former Soviet Bloc country's) corruption and down right theft of public money is not only rife but at levels way beyond the comprehension of most northern Europeans.

This is the playing field where most EU politicians and bureaucrats have grown up and to them a few billion Euro's disappearing into the ether (as happened earlier this year) is nothing. To these people having accounts properly audited (as the EU has failed to do for the last 18 years) is something for other people. Having a president who oversaw the largest tax avoidance scam in European history is normal service.

Someone mentioned FIFA in an earlier post. All I can say is that when it comes to corruption and opacity, FIFA is Hartlepool United to the EU's Chelsea (using current league positions)

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

That's a pretty patronising response, have to say."

Sorry, on re-reading I guess it does, it wasn't meant to be patronising. Just something from my own experience.

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

But, like all separatist and secessionist lobbies around the world, they never accept the result and constantly want another and another and another until they finally get the result they want.

And the EU don't have second or third votes to get their way? Maastricht, Nice AND Lisbon treaties were all voted against in referenda (Danes and Irish), and those governments had additional referenda until such time as they were voted FOR, after pressure was put on them by the EU. If these referenda had stayed as 'No's', then those treaties would not have been ratified, and it is unlikely that there would be a single currency or free movement of labour in Europe.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

But, like all separatist and secessionist lobbies around the world, they never accept the result and constantly want another and another and another until they finally get the result they want.

Totally agree.

The EU did not accept the initial results from Ireland and they had additional referendum until they got the result they wanted. Disgraceful behaviour really, but that is the EU's version of democracy for you.

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

"Nigel Farage is a former banker and UKIP is a party of bug-eyed ex-Tories with no principles.

More of the same.

Tories do have principals. I have consistently voted Conservative, I have no plans on changing that now and I have very string principals.

As for Nigel Farage, I'm not going to make any decision on his principals because I don't have to. I'll fight him and UKIP on their policies and let the people decide which they think is best."

Strange though, that both the Tories and Labour are starting to adopt UKIP policies....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

All they talk about is immigration.I need to gen up on their other policies (if they have any) before I make my mind up about them.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Interesting thread, this. Couple of things I have to query with you, OP. One is the assertion, often made, that we are somehow better off due to trading links with Europe. I'd say this was a moot point. Indeed, with an annual trading deficit, we clearly don't do fantastically out of our trade links. I have long since suspected that protectionism is our best bet. America under Clinton indulged in protectionism and their economy flourished whilst many countries struggled. Recently Australia has done the same and was seeing substantial growth as the Western world stumbled into financial meltdown. Surely a single market is as fundamentally flawed as the idea of a single currency? Many European countries are very nearly bankrupt, while only Germany has prospered. A bit like the model of Britain: most power and money centres on London. Similarly most European power and money is centred on Germany. And the whole idea of joining Europe has changed beyond recognition - a small number of wealthy European countries trading as one was the original idea. That is not what we now have. Secondly, the idea that having a referendum is a bad idea is one I cannot see. Just as we have the right to vote MPs in and out periodically, so we should have the right to pull out of Europe if we feel it isn't working in our best interests. Or at least have the right to discuss, consider and vote according to what we believe is best. I never had the right to vote on joining the EEC. I was four when we joined. I would like that right now. Many people feel the same, hence the rise in popularity of UKIP. A referendum would give people like me the opportunity to assess whether staying in Europe is best for us on that one policy alone. If I vote UKIP, I'm seen to support a range of policies, not just this one, which doesn't necessarily suit me. Besides, we have been promised a referendum on Europe for many years. I'm still waiting for it! You and politicians do not have the right to take that away from me.

Do you?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Corruption and many other less than favourable traits have and always will be part of what we know as 'politics'..

and politics is part and parcel of every institution, club or whatever we do in business and socially..

hey ho..

Yes there always has and probably always will be some form of corruption in all politics. However the real issue is to what degree and to a certain extent how you would define it.

Someone mentioned FIFA in an earlier post. All I can say is that when it comes to corruption and opacity, FIFA is Hartlepool United to the EU's Chelsea (using current league positions)"

FIFA behaved incorrectly by misquoting the report of the person they asked to investigate corruption. Some of the press and people looking for political gain are misquoting what the EU auditors said.

The European Court of Auditors is responsible for signing off the EU's accounts. If you look at their website you'll find that they have signed off the 2013 accounts, as they have done those of previous years.

You'll also find that the auditors say explicitly that the estimated error rate on expenditure is NOT a measure of fraud, inefficiency or waste.

The auditor's main comment was that "the budget system is too focused on just getting funds spent and needs to place more emphasis on achieving results". Which I'm sure we all agree with.

Claims that the EU accounts haven't been signed off 'for 18 years' are totally untrue. Claims that the auditors say there is fraud in the accounts are not true.

If you want to read what they actually say, you can do so at: http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/ecadefault.aspx

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By *ngel n tedCouple over a year ago

maidstone

All politicians are self serving pricks, who believe they are above the very people who put them in power, it's a long line of nest feathering, from the moment they're fresh faced young party members, to the moment they're a thousand year old crumbly, rotting away in the house of lords......cunts the lot of em......... other opinions are available

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

well said i couldn't have worded it better myself especially the bit about the efing Roma pickpokets, who the hell let that load or dross into the EU ?

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"Corruption and many other less than favourable traits have and always will be part of what we know as 'politics'..

and politics is part and parcel of every institution, club or whatever we do in business and socially..

hey ho..

Yes there always has and probably always will be some form of corruption in all politics. However the real issue is to what degree and to a certain extent how you would define it.

Someone mentioned FIFA in an earlier post. All I can say is that when it comes to corruption and opacity, FIFA is Hartlepool United to the EU's Chelsea (using current league positions)

FIFA behaved incorrectly by misquoting the report of the person they asked to investigate corruption. Some of the press and people looking for political gain are misquoting what the EU auditors said.

You'll also find that the auditors say explicitly that the estimated error rate on expenditure is NOT a measure of fraud, inefficiency or waste.

The auditor's main comment was that "the budget system is too focused on just getting funds spent and needs to place more emphasis on achieving results". Which I'm sure we all agree with.

Claims that the EU accounts haven't been signed off 'for 18 years' are totally untrue. Claims that the auditors say there is fraud in the accounts are not true.

If you want to read what they actually say, you can do so at: http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/ecadefault.aspx"

....and should Jean Claude Juncker be head of the EU commision in light of the revelations that he was part of huge tax avoidence schemes in Luxembourg, or should that be swept under the carpet aswel?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Corruption and many other less than favourable traits have and always will be part of what we know as 'politics'..

and politics is part and parcel of every institution, club or whatever we do in business and socially..

hey ho..

Yes there always has and probably always will be some form of corruption in all politics. However the real issue is to what degree and to a certain extent how you would define it.

Someone mentioned FIFA in an earlier post. All I can say is that when it comes to corruption and opacity, FIFA is Hartlepool United to the EU's Chelsea (using current league positions)

FIFA behaved incorrectly by misquoting the report of the person they asked to investigate corruption. Some of the press and people looking for political gain are misquoting what the EU auditors said.

You'll also find that the auditors say explicitly that the estimated error rate on expenditure is NOT a measure of fraud, inefficiency or waste.

The auditor's main comment was that "the budget system is too focused on just getting funds spent and needs to place more emphasis on achieving results". Which I'm sure we all agree with.

Claims that the EU accounts haven't been signed off 'for 18 years' are totally untrue. Claims that the auditors say there is fraud in the accounts are not true.

If you want to read what they actually say, you can do so at: http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/ecadefault.aspx

So I take it you accept that claims that the accounts weren't approved and claims that the auditors said they were evidence of fraud were completely untrue. And of course we'll all be telling people who put forward those mistaken views that they've got it wrong, won't we??

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Corruption and many other less than favourable traits have and always will be part of what we know as 'politics'..

and politics is part and parcel of every institution, club or whatever we do in business and socially..

hey ho..

Yes there always has and probably always will be some form of corruption in all politics. However the real issue is to what degree and to a certain extent how you would define it.

Someone mentioned FIFA in an earlier post. All I can say is that when it comes to corruption and opacity, FIFA is Hartlepool United to the EU's Chelsea (using current league positions)

FIFA behaved incorrectly by misquoting the report of the person they asked to investigate corruption. Some of the press and people looking for political gain are misquoting what the EU auditors said.

You'll also find that the auditors say explicitly that the estimated error rate on expenditure is NOT a measure of fraud, inefficiency or waste.

The auditor's main comment was that "the budget system is too focused on just getting funds spent and needs to place more emphasis on achieving results". Which I'm sure we all agree with.

Claims that the EU accounts haven't been signed off 'for 18 years' are totally untrue. Claims that the auditors say there is fraud in the accounts are not true.

If you want to read what they actually say, you can do so at: http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/ecadefault.aspx

As for the fate of Mr Juncker, that depends on whether or not allegations of wrongdoing are the truth, doesn't it? Just because someone rants about it in the Daily Mail, The Telegraph, UKIP or a web forum doesn't make it the truth as we can see time and time again.

Typically if it's something illegal it'll be called tax evasion, not tax avoidance. We all hate tax avoidance because people are getting away with not paying tax because of smart arsed schemes invented by those wonderfully inventive bankers and lawyers we're all supposed to love. From what I've seen this was about his government of his country allowing corporate tax avoidance, not him lining his own pockets. We don't like that, but was it illegal? It'd be good too to see the companies involved named and shamed if they haven't already.

Personally I hate tax avoidance and tax evasion and think that if anyone is illegally supporting them, they should get their just desserts.

If accusations are based on the truth.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Rather than praising or bashing any particular party I'd like to see something done to increase voter turnout,

That way the party that wins will be truly representative of the population, rather than reflecting a minority as it has done for years.

Voter percentages:

1950? 83.9%.

1964? 77.1%.

1979? 76%.

1987? 75.3%.

1997? 71.4%.

2001? 59.4%.

2010? 65.1%

If people want change? Vote.

Seems an awful lot are happy to moan but can't be arsed though.

Is it time to make voting compulsory like

Belgium, Australia and many others?

I've never voted as I've never felt there was s party who I wanted to represent me and whose policies I wholeheartedly endorsed. However I now know there is one party I definitely DON'T want to represent me, so I will be voting next year! Call it the UKIP effect.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

OK I admit I am old enough to have voted to join the EEC (Common Market) and for me the key word was the middle one: 'Economic'. As someone else skilfully wrote it 'morphed' over time into the EC (note the loss of the 'Economic' part). I remember the buzz we had being able to drive our trucks past the Gestapo like guards at Aachen Sud border without having to stop. THAT was progress. And then we became the EU and went from 9 (with us) to 28. And as was also pointed out the last ten years have been the most significant when crucially we saw the benefits vs cost ratio drastically change and people who were 'for' suddenly became ' against' (me included). We saw the rest of Europe ban all immigration from the new '10' for two and four years and Labour hang out the 'over here you're welcome' boards. Suddenly the balance was destroyed. A few used to go here a few went there but after that there were busloads of Poles being shepherded into ready made jobs we never got a sniff at? I was pushed out of a well paid skilled job as an HGV fitter (Scania Master Technician for those that know) when two Polish fitters were paid a combined £1 an hour more than they paid me and they worked 18 hours a day. Labour added Tax Credits and gave them Child Benefit to send home to Warsaw and no one gave a rats arse about me. So I parked my £2,500 worth of Snap On hand tools in my garage and drove trucks. But I had to wait until local firms realised hiring Polish drivers was actually a very dangerous idea and reverted to British ones.

Sorry if this is a bit personal but I hope it gives some background to how millions of British workers (and it IS the workers who have been hit hardest) have seen their lives changed without any say so from them. UKIP has hit an open goal while everyone else was scared off by Labour's shutdown of all discussion by calling us 'racists'. But we now DO have a choice. Two parties offer us the choice Labour never gave us (despite a promise) and they are the Conservatives and UKIP. I have been a Tory voter all my life and always will be but unless we get Cameron back in we will NEVER get the referendum we have been denied by the Political Establishment. All credit to Farage and the People's Army and I hope he makes it as Leader of the Opposition. He will be fearsome but he is NO Prime Minister and UKIP have NO economic policy. And those are the clinchers for me.

Soap box has been stowed away ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ive always seen, as the general election looms, the parties always give out populist promises.. They promise the world, nick ideas from other parties.. Then when they get in.. Wallop, renage on the so called promises.. I'll personally never vote conservative, partly because they said they'd get the uk debt down.. And haven't, secondly giving tax breaks to the rich while the uk debt and deficits accrued is still out of contol, but mainly the cruel bedroom tax imposed on disabled people who need an extra bedroom to keep equipment.. That although doesn't affect me was so freakin awful i lost sleep over that policy which just shows the mindset of the tory ideology

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Just to ad.. Doing that to the disabled saving so little while handing out whopping heaps of cash to their rich banker mates is ffreakin staggering

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

But, like all separatist and secessionist lobbies around the world, they never accept the result and constantly want another and another and another until they finally get the result they want.

Which sort of prove my point that referendum are a complete waist of time and solve nothing.

You may be right about the single currency not being enacted so quickly if the EU had accepted the results of those referendum but as the loosing side never accepts the result of a referendum and always seeks another one as soon as possible, that's an unlikely hope.

Free movement of labour is a founding and fundamental principle of the EEC/EC/EU there have been no treaty changes, so far, to either enhance or diminish this since we joined, although changes in custom and practice at border posts have changed to this right more feasible.

It should be noted that Free Movement of Labour does mean free movement of entitlement to benefits etc.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Corruption and many other less than favourable traits have and always will be part of what we know as 'politics'..

and politics is part and parcel of every institution, club or whatever we do in business and socially..

hey ho..

Yes there always has and probably always will be some form of corruption in all politics. However the real issue is to what degree and to a certain extent how you would define it.

Someone mentioned FIFA in an earlier post. All I can say is that when it comes to corruption and opacity, FIFA is Hartlepool United to the EU's Chelsea (using current league positions)

FIFA behaved incorrectly by misquoting the report of the person they asked to investigate corruption. Some of the press and people looking for political gain are misquoting what the EU auditors said.

You'll also find that the auditors say explicitly that the estimated error rate on expenditure is NOT a measure of fraud, inefficiency or waste.

The auditor's main comment was that "the budget system is too focused on just getting funds spent and needs to place more emphasis on achieving results". Which I'm sure we all agree with.

Claims that the EU accounts haven't been signed off 'for 18 years' are totally untrue. Claims that the auditors say there is fraud in the accounts are not true.

If you want to read what they actually say, you can do so at: http://www.eca.europa.eu/en/Pages/ecadefault.aspx"

And that is their excuse and they are sticking to it. Oh and Qatar and Russia got the World Cup's fair and square.

I must admit this body is a new one on me. I think it cannot be that old as the commission would have been shouting it from the rooftops every time they have been accused of fraud.

I smell a rat, but I will research them and get back to you.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"All politicians are self serving pricks, who believe they are above the very people who put them in power, it's a long line of nest feathering, from the moment they're fresh faced young party members, to the moment they're a thousand year old crumbly, rotting away in the house of lords......cunts the lot of em......... other opinions are available"

Nice to see the thread is developing into well rounded debate

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

But, like all separatist and secessionist lobbies around the world, they never accept the result and constantly want another and another and another until they finally get the result they want.

Totally agree.

Like I said, the loosing side in a referendum never accepts the final result and always try to get another one as soon as possible to get the result they wanted in the first place. It's already happening in Scotland now. The SNP is clearly laying down the argument for another referendum now. I'm sure they probably get one to within the next 10 to 15 years, and another after that, regardless of which way the result goes.

The reality of what your saying is that, when you look at it closely, what I am saying is true about referendum. They change nothing and the loosing side never accepts the result as final. A complete waist of time and money.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The European Court of Auditors has been the EU’s external auditor since its establishment in October 1977

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The European Court of Auditors has been the EU’s external auditor since its establishment in October 1977"

Just a handy little point if it comes up in a pub quiz

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"Nigel Farage is a former banker and UKIP is a party of bug-eyed ex-Tories with no principles.

More of the same.

Tories do have principals. I have consistently voted Conservative, I have no plans on changing that now and I have very string principals.

As for Nigel Farage, I'm not going to make any decision on his principals because I don't have to. I'll fight him and UKIP on their policies and let the people decide which they think is best.

Strange though, that both the Tories and Labour are starting to adopt UKIP policies...."

Why is that strange. I think it's pretty clear to most that the mass and unrestricted immigration of mostly Polish people from 2004 onwards caused major infrastructure problems. But that was a UK government decision to allow that, not an EU one, Germany, France Holland and many other EU countries restricted their entry.

It's also not strange that both parties should want to look at the rights of immigrants to receive benefits when they have not paid taxes here previously. But again, this is a UK Government decision, not an EU one. Germany, France, Holland, Demark, Sweden and others are looking at exactly the same thing. If they can do it without leaving the EU I'm sure we can to.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

I'll personally never vote conservative, partly because they said they'd get the uk debt down.. And haven't, secondly giving tax breaks to the rich while the uk debt and deficits accrued is still out of contol, but mainly the cruel bedroom tax imposed on disabled people who need an extra bedroom to keep equipment.. That although doesn't affect me was so freakin awful i lost sleep over that policy which just shows the mindset of the tory ideology "

To get the debt down, you first need to turn the deficit into a credit. It is impossible to stop the debt increasing without getting rid of the deficit. Research what was promised and I think you might find that the promise was about the deficit, rather than the debt. There is a big difference.

Tax cuts were given to all. The lowest paid being taken out of tax altogether. Reducing the upper tax level is a proven way of collecting more tax.

What is the bedroom tax? There is no such thing as a bedroom tax. It was the equalising of housing benefit that is paid in the private and social housing stock.

If you want the economy fixed, vote conservative. If you want something for nothing and get swayed by emotive political spin, you will vote labour because they use the tax payer to buy themselves votes.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"All they talk about is immigration.I need to gen up on their other policies (if they have any) before I make my mind up about them."

UKIP does have other policies, some of which I quite like the sounds of but unfortunately, when you try to dig into the substance they turn out to either simple populist rhetoric or not really feasible. In my opinion at least.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

I'd love to know what these 'other options' are.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"OK I admit I am old enough to have voted to join the EEC (Common Market) and for me the key word was the middle one: 'Economic'. As someone else skilfully wrote it 'morphed' over time into the EC (note the loss of the 'Economic' part). I remember the buzz we had being able to drive our trucks past the Gestapo like guards at Aachen Sud border without having to stop. THAT was progress. And then we became the EU and went from 9 (with us) to 28. And as was also pointed out the last ten years have been the most significant when crucially we saw the benefits vs cost ratio drastically change and people who were 'for' suddenly became ' against' (me included). We saw the rest of Europe ban all immigration from the new '10' for two and four years and Labour hang out the 'over here you're welcome' boards. Suddenly the balance was destroyed. A few used to go here a few went there but after that there were busloads of Poles being shepherded into ready made jobs we never got a sniff at? I was pushed out of a well paid skilled job as an HGV fitter (Scania Master Technician for those that know) when two Polish fitters were paid a combined £1 an hour more than they paid me and they worked 18 hours a day. Labour added Tax Credits and gave them Child Benefit to send home to Warsaw and no one gave a rats arse about me. So I parked my £2,500 worth of Snap On hand tools in my garage and drove trucks. But I had to wait until local firms realised hiring Polish drivers was actually a very dangerous idea and reverted to British ones.

Soap box has been stowed away ...

I think it's often right to point out to people how government decisions, past and present, affected your own life. It can bring a clearer perspective to people about what has and is going on.

My only political point on this is that the decisions that allowed this to happen was a decisions made by the UK government, not the EU. As you correctly point out, most of the rest of the EU countries banned immigrants from Poland and did not have this problem (They also did not have to leave the EU in order to do that)

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

Sorry, miss read 'opinions' as 'options'

I'd love to know what these 'other options' are."

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'll personally never vote conservative, partly because they said they'd get the uk debt down.. And haven't,"

Well they have because they have reduced the deficit by nearly a half which means we are borrowing less than we were and by doing what they have we are paying the lowest interest rates on Government bonds.

"secondly giving tax breaks to the rich while the uk debt and deficits accrued is still out of contol,"

What tax breaks? the rich pay more now than they ever did under Labour. Or have you been kidded by Labour's last minute 50p tax rate which started after they were out of power? Its now 45p after 13 years of Labour's 40p.

"but mainly the cruel bedroom tax imposed on disabled people who need an extra bedroom to keep equipment.. That although doesn't affect me was so freakin awful i lost sleep over that policy which just shows the mindset of the tory ideology "
There is no Bedroom Tax mate. Its a Labour 10 second sound bite! And if we do call the 'Spare Room Subsidy' a tax it isn't about disabled people. And for those who need extra support there is a £35Million fund available to local Councils. I didn't see Labour worrying about hitting those disabled in private rental housing for 13 years. Why should someone in Council housing get full Housing Benefit when someone in private doesn't? .. Explain THAT to thousands of people mate.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"My only political point on this is that the decisions that allowed this to happen was a decisions made by the UK government, not the EU. As you correctly point out, most of the rest of the EU countries banned immigrants from Poland and did not have this problem (They also did not have to leave the EU in order to do that) "

I totally agree it was a UK Government decision and why Labour's position now is now so damned hypocritical. But what has happened is that people now see, because of all that, the total inability of a UK Government to halt inward migration to the UK from the EU. So having a quarter of a million new people here every year is frightening some and making others very angry. especially the total cost of it all and people are now asking precisely how we signed up for all this. And of course we didn't.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"To get the debt down, you first need to turn the deficit into a credit. It is impossible to stop the debt increasing without getting rid of the deficit. Research what was promised and I think you might find that the promise was about the deficit, rather than the debt. There is a big difference.

Tax cuts were given to all. The lowest paid being taken out of tax altogether. Reducing the upper tax level is a proven way of collecting more tax.

What is the bedroom tax? There is no such thing as a bedroom tax. It was the equalising of housing benefit that is paid in the private and social housing stock.

Absolutely right and it defeats me why so many seem unable to see it ....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well one thing can't be disputed ! Ukip have got people talking about politics !

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

I think you will find (or maybe remember) that this was a vote to join a "common market". No bad thing if that had stayed as that. What NO-ONE voted for was a federal Europe or for the EU.

This came about as a string of treaties. Maastricht being a major step (thanks Maggie....not as euro sceptic as she would have us believe). And the Lisbon Treaty....which Labour promised a referendum on and then reneged.

We have been sold down the river by a bunch of self serving, out of touch politicians of ALL major parties.

There are Scandinavian countries and Switzerland trading fine with Europe. The only reason we sell any goods to Europe at all is because our products are wanted by consumers. This wouldn't change. Our balance of trade with Europe is negative anyway.....so what's the problem?

Big doubt that Cameron will get in anyway....but watch him back out of referendum too if he does!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The European Court of Auditors has been the EU’s external auditor since its establishment in October 1977"

And not once have they signed the books off....because they have never been balanced/legal/free from totally corrupt practices!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The European Court of Auditors has been the EU’s external auditor since its establishment in October 1977

And not once have they signed the books off....because they have never been balanced/legal/free from totally corrupt practices!"

If you read one of my posts above above you'll find that's untrue. You can go to the European Court of Auditors site and see the external audit sign off for 2013 accounts and a definite statement that there is no evidence of corrupt practice.

Also, the EU has to balance its books by law every single year unlike national governments

You really need to stick with the truth. That's the main commodity that's getting corrupted.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

I think you will find (or maybe remember) that this was a vote to join a "common market". No bad thing if that had stayed as that. What NO-ONE voted for was a federal Europe or for the EU.

We have been sold down the river by a bunch of self serving, out of touch politicians of ALL major parties.

Big doubt that Cameron will get in anyway....but watch him back out of referendum too if he does!"

#And while I'm going on about the truth, if you quote the Scandinavian countries as an example, please note there are 5 of them. Three are members of the EU (Sweden, Finland and Denmark). The other two are EEA members which allows them to trade as if members of the EU and they must implement European directives as part of that deal. That's how they get on fine trading with the EU - by participating in or very closely with it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

I think you will find (or maybe remember) that this was a vote to join a "common market". No bad thing if that had stayed as that. What NO-ONE voted for was a federal Europe or for the EU.

We have been sold down the river by a bunch of self serving, out of touch politicians of ALL major parties.

Big doubt that Cameron will get in anyway....but watch him back out of referendum too if he does!

Also, Switzerland has a very similar deal and has adopted large chunks of European law including the free movement of labour. They also make a contribution to the EU budget.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Ive always seen, as the general election looms, the parties always give out populist promises.. They promise the world, nick ideas from other parties.. Then when they get in.. Wallop, renage on the so called promises.. I'll personally never vote conservative, partly because they said they'd get the uk debt down.. And haven't, secondly giving tax breaks to the rich while the uk debt and deficits accrued is still out of contol, but mainly the cruel bedroom tax imposed on disabled people who need an extra bedroom to keep equipment.. That although doesn't affect me was so freakin awful i lost sleep over that policy which just shows the mindset of the tory ideology To get the debt down, you first need to turn the deficit into a credit. It is impossible to stop the debt increasing without getting rid of the deficit. Research what was promised and I think you might find that the promise was about the deficit, rather than the debt. There is a big difference. Tax cuts were given to all. The lowest paid being taken out of tax altogether. Reducing the upper tax level is a proven way of collecting more tax. What is the bedroom tax? There is no such thing as a bedroom tax. It was the equalising of housing benefit that is paid in the private and social housing stock. If you want the economy fixed, vote conservative. If you want something for nothing and get swayed by emotive political spin, you will vote labour because they use the tax payer to buy themselves votes."

.. And the tories would never do that of course. This government seems to tread lightly round pensioners... The grey voters.. Hmmm I Wonder why.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

.. And the tories would never do that of course. This government seems to tread lightly round pensioners... The grey voters.. Hmmm I Wonder why.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"Interesting thread, this. Couple of things I have to query with you, OP. One is the assertion, often made, that we are somehow better off due to trading links with Europe. I'd say this was a moot point. Indeed, with an annual trading deficit, we clearly don't do fantastically out of our trade links. I have long since suspected that protectionism is our best bet. America under Clinton indulged in protectionism and their economy flourished whilst many countries struggled. Recently Australia has done the same and was seeing substantial growth as the Western world stumbled into financial meltdown."

Essays have been written on the subjects of Free Trade verses Protectionism and don’t think I could adequately go through all the issues here on a simple discussion thread. Also Trade Deficits or surpluses are not really a very good indicator of anything accept how much money is flowing in any given direction.

I’ll try to explain a little on Free Trade verses Protectionism:-

In order to make money you have to sell something to someone who has the money to buy it at a price greater than the cost of making and transporting it to them. The only way someone else can have the money to buy your ‘something’ is if they can sell something they have to either you or someone else at a price that is greater than their cost of making it and transporting it to you or someone else. If you put taxes (trade tariffs) in place that increase the costs of the other person in transporting his good to you then he is going to make either no money or a lot less money. If he makes less money he will either have to buy fewer goods from you or the same amount of goods at a lower price. If he makes no money then he won’t buy anything from you. Either way you end up with no sale and no money or less money for the same amount of effort. If what he was selling was actually something you required in order to make your ‘something’ you also increase your costs at the same time. This loop is a self-perpetuating down ward slide to poverty for all. And that’s before the country that he is from puts taxis (trade tariffs) of their own on you goods further adding to the downward pressure on overall wealth.

This is a simplistic model but it’s basically how trade works and what happens when you tax it.

" Surely a single market is as fundamentally flawed as the idea of a single currency? "

No the protectionist idea is the fundamentally flawed idea. It was the introduction of protectionism that caused the Great Depression in the late 1920s and further tit-for-tat competitive protectionism that caused it to last through-out the 1930's. Also countries that have, to a greater or lesser extent, adopted free(ish) trade since the war (1945)(UK, Western Europe, USA) have generally seen exponential growth in wealth whilst the countries that chose the protectionist rout (USSR, Eastern Europe, India, China, most of Africa) saw real wealth shrink over the same period. In fact China and India are good examples because both, since opening up there markets to freer trade, have moved from being economic basket cases to world economic powers.

"Many European countries are very nearly bankrupt, while only Germany has prospered. A bit like the model of Britain: most power and money centres on London. Similarly most European power and money is centred on Germany. "

Really. I come from Liverpool. Every one says that's one of the poorest places in Western Europe but I've seen plenty of wealth up there. I'm currently living in Hammersmith and I can see plenty of poverty here. I think wealth distribution is a little more complex than you are making out with those sweeping statements

"And the whole idea of joining Europe has changed beyond recognition - a small number of wealthy European countries trading as one was the original idea. That is not what we now have. Secondly, the idea that having a referendum is a bad idea is one I cannot see. Just as we have the right to vote MPs in and out periodically, so we should have the right to pull out of Europe if we feel it isn't working in our best interests.

Personally I see the concept of a representative democracy, where we periodically elect members to make decision on are behalf completely at odds with a system were decisions are constantly being put to a vote of the people.

" Or at least have the right to discuss, consider and vote according to what we believe is best.

Well yer, that's what we're doing and why we have elections.

" I never had the right to vote on joining the EEC. I was four when we joined. I would like that right now. Many people feel the same, hence the rise in popularity of UKIP. A referendum would give people like me the opportunity to assess whether staying in Europe is best for us on that one policy alone. If I vote UKIP, I'm seen to support a range of policies, not just this one, which doesn't necessarily suit me. Besides, we have been promised a referendum on Europe for many years. I'm still waiting for it!

Well actually it's not UKIP policy to have a referendum. There policy is leave the EU end of. No referendum, no discussion, just leave. If you really believe all that stuff you said about peoples right to decide in a referendum then why you even considering voting UKIP. All the other parties are actually offering a referendum. The conservatives are offering one with in 2 years and both the labour and Liberal Democrat stance is 'yes, but not now' (I know, I wouldn't hold my breath either on when it would be). But UKIP policy is no referendum now, not tomorrow and not anytime in the future. That's not what you say you believe, or is it?

" You and politicians do not have the right to take that away from me.

Do you?"

I don't have the right to take anything away from you but I do have the right to argue that I think referendum are a bad way to make decisions and ultimately are a complete waist of time.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

I think you will find (or maybe remember) that this was a vote to join a "common market". No bad thing if that had stayed as that. What NO-ONE voted for was a federal Europe or for the EU.

We have been sold down the river by a bunch of self serving, out of touch politicians of ALL major parties.

Big doubt that Cameron will get in anyway....but watch him back out of referendum too if he does!"

You are correct, and I do remember but was not actually old enough to vote myself.

And that is my point about referendum. Things always change and always, which ever side wins the referendum, the other side claims things have changed since then and we need another one. Nothing is ever resolved.

I do actually agree that the move to 'Ever Closer Union', which incidentally was part of being in the EEC, has moved at a pace which is not only faster than the people of Britain are happy to accept but also faster than the people of most of Europe are willing to accept. However I believe that should be put right whilst staying in the EU because, at the end of the day, if the EU really does screw up badly, whether we're in it or not, we will be totally screwed to. Are best way of making it work is to stay in it and change it not leave it a lose any influence over future reform.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"The European Court of Auditors has been the EU’s external auditor since its establishment in October 1977

And not once have they signed the books off....because they have never been balanced/legal/free from totally corrupt practices!

Also, the EU has to balance its books by law every single year unlike national governments

You really need to stick with the truth. That's the main commodity that's getting corrupted."

European court of auditors, now do they come under the internal umbrella of the EU i wonder? I suspect they do and are they to be trusted anymore than Jean Claude Juncker investigating himself for tax avoidance schemes in Luxembourg, much the same way FIFA has investigated itself in the past....the word whitewash springs to mind.

I can tell you now Juncker will not be found guilty of tax avoidence schemes in Luxembourg, he is hardly going to find himself guilty now is he.

Also on the EU's finances, interesting how the EU can come to the conclusion Britain must pay back 2 billion which they back dated to 1995, much for what our economy earned on the black market, prostitution, illegal drugs, etc, and as our economy is growing now call it a tax on success if you like.

At the same time France'e economy is going backwards and Germanys economy is pretty much flatlining, and they get a big rebate???

Call it reward for failure if you like?

Here is the real kick in the guts for a country like Greece, who is on its knees economically and struggling they are being asked to pay more along with Italy who are also struggling. Yes the EU is very fair and balanced is'nt it?

And while the EU were backdating our contribution to the mid 90's did they add into their calculations that Tony Blair gave away our rebate during his time in office for nothing in return?

I bet they conveniently forgot about that one did'nt they?

So no, sorry not convinced the EU's books are in order i'm afraid.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

I think you will find (or maybe remember) that this was a vote to join a "common market". No bad thing if that had stayed as that. What NO-ONE voted for was a federal Europe or for the EU.

We have been sold down the river by a bunch of self serving, out of touch politicians of ALL major parties.

Big doubt that Cameron will get in anyway....but watch him back out of referendum too if he does!

You are correct, and I do remember but was not actually old enough to vote myself.

You are talking as if people want referendums every year or something?

We don't, we have not had one on europe since the 1970's, its about time a generation of people who never had a say/vote got the chance to express their opinion at the ballot box now.

We had a referendum a few years ago on preportional representation led by the Lib dems when they went into coalition it was one of their demands. They lost the referendum and have not called for another one as you seem to suggest always happens when one side calls for a referendum and does'nt get their way. I don't see the Lib dems calling for another one on preportional representation.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

I’ll try to explain a little on Free Trade verses Protectionism:-

This is a simplistic model but it’s basically how trade works and what happens when you tax it.

Surely a single market is as fundamentally flawed as the idea of a single currency?

Many European countries are very nearly bankrupt, while only Germany has prospered. A bit like the model of Britain: most power and money centres on London. Similarly most European power and money is centred on Germany.

And the whole idea of joining Europe has changed beyond recognition - a small number of wealthy European countries trading as one was the original idea. That is not what we now have. Secondly, the idea that having a referendum is a bad idea is one I cannot see. Just as we have the right to vote MPs in and out periodically, so we should have the right to pull out of Europe if we feel it isn't working in our best interests.

Or at least have the right to discuss, consider and vote according to what we believe is best.

Well yer, that's what we're doing and why we have elections.

I never had the right to vote on joining the EEC. I was four when we joined. I would like that right now. Many people feel the same, hence the rise in popularity of UKIP. A referendum would give people like me the opportunity to assess whether staying in Europe is best for us on that one policy alone. If I vote UKIP, I'm seen to support a range of policies, not just this one, which doesn't necessarily suit me. Besides, we have been promised a referendum on Europe for many years. I'm still waiting for it!

You and politicians do not have the right to take that away from me.

Do you?

I don't have the right to take anything away from you but I do have the right to argue that I think referendum are a bad way to make decisions and ultimately are a complete waist of time."

On the point that UKIP don't want a referendum but just want to leave. Yes that is UKIP's position but i think most UKIP voters are realists and realise they are not going to get a mojority government to put that into practice. What most UKIP voters i think hope for is to get enough MP's in the general election to maybe form a coalition with the tories, and a fair compromise will be a straight forward in/out referendum on Britains EU membership, which David Cameron cannot wriggle out of.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well of course you wouldn't be convinced because the truth is inconvenient for the line of argument you've been following.

So let's get the facts straight. They are external auditors. You can't have it both ways. The accounts are either signed off by the external auditors or they aren't. Just because signing them off is inconvenient for your argument and you bury your head in the sand and ignore it doesn't mean that it's a whitewash. I'd trust their opinion of the accounts for a hundred years before your view or Farage's view or the Daily Mail's view.

Chuck Juncker into this as many times as you like - it's irrelevant. Nothing to do with the accounts. Zilch. Zero. Wrong. Get used to it. If Juncket turned out to be a filthy child abusing rapist with 3 heads and a mass murderer it would still have absolutely nothing to do with the validity of the accounts. Throw all the mud you like but it doesn't change the facts.

Back a bit closer to the real world, Juncker can't be found guilty of tax avoidance for two reasons. The first is that avoidance isn't illegal so there's not crime to be found guilty of, the second is that it's the companies that avoided tax not him. If he didn't commit an offence he can't be found guilty. Sad for you and me if his behaviour or that of the government he was part of seems immoral but it wasn't illegal - until someone proves it was. You (and I) will have to suck it in and live with that.

The whinge about the 2 billion euros is (largely) that - a whinge. Do you think that suddenly appeared on Cameron's doorstep in a big red envelope? Do you think the treasury didn't know about how the budget is calculated for months/years ahead... oooo shock horror in 11 Downing Street? If they didn't know then there should have been mass firings in the treasury. If they did and they didn't tell the government there should have been mass firings in the treasury.

The funding formulae were negotiated and signed off by the EU states including the UK. They don't just sneak off and implement these things without talking to us. The UK participated in and agreed the funding formula. Look into it and you'll find the funding calculations also include an increase in the UK rebate - look it up for yourself

Perhaps we ought to reject that too?

No-one has given away 'our' rebate. We'll get it this year, next year and the year after. And the year after. Blair allowed it to be reduced (and I don't forgive him for that) but in the interests of TRUTH he didn't give it away, it is still there.

When you're ready to give a fair and balanced view of the arguments, do come back.

But please feel free to not let facts get in the way of a good rant.

Enjoy.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't like the EU

I don't like Europeans either, they've got a long history of being fascist bastards and sooner or later there'll revert to type.

You like it so much, go and live there.

Me I'm voting ukip because I want out and I'm hoping others will too, but I'll get along just fine either way.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

While we have a cheery chat about Juncker, which UKIP MEP didn't vote to censure him when given the opportunity?

I'll give you a clue, his initials are NF.

And it was his own motion.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don't like the EU

I don't like Europeans either, they've got a long history of being fascist bastards and sooner or later there'll revert to type.

You like it so much, go and live there.

Me I'm voting ukip because I want out and I'm hoping others will too, but I'll get along just fine either way."

Cool. Confess to xenophobia, at least that's honest.

It's the fascist way to twist the truth and turn people against one another with lies and half truths mixed with the occasional bit of plausible nonsense. I object to that and that's what I see in UKIP and it's friends. Go and look how the Nazis manipulated the truth. All I've asked for is evidence rather than made up rants

Again, as matter of fact, I already live in Europe. In England. Part of Europe and proud of it.

I also lived in England before it was part of Europe and believe me it wasn't good.

Though of course you won't believe me.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"While we have a cheery chat about Juncker, which UKIP MEP didn't vote to censure him when given the opportunity?

I'll give you a clue, his initials are NF.

And it was his own motion. "

Yes i know Farage did'nt vote on it, i think he suspected Junckers allies in the centralist parties would vote down the motion, the result was a forgone conclusion before it started.

Farage achieved what he wanted to by calling this motion though, it has brought this story into the public domain and given media coverage onto the dubious workings of the EU and called Junckers character into question, and his ability to lead the EU into question. Farages work here is done.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"While we have a cheery chat about Juncker, which UKIP MEP didn't vote to censure him when given the opportunity?

I'll give you a clue, his initials are NF.

And it was his own motion.

Yes i know Farage did'nt vote on it, i think he suspected Junckers allies in the centralist parties would vote down the motion, the result was a forgone conclusion before it started.

Good then him and all his mates can do us all a favour and retire

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"While we have a cheery chat about Juncker, which UKIP MEP didn't vote to censure him when given the opportunity?

I'll give you a clue, his initials are NF.

And it was his own motion.

Yes i know Farage did'nt vote on it, i think he suspected Junckers allies in the centralist parties would vote down the motion, the result was a forgone conclusion before it started.

Good then him and all his mates can do us all a favour and retire

No chance of that happening until Britain leaves the EU, or the EU collapses like the deck of cards it is. Farage and UKIP are here to stay.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"While we have a cheery chat about Juncker, which UKIP MEP didn't vote to censure him when given the opportunity?

I'll give you a clue, his initials are NF.

And it was his own motion.

Yes i know Farage did'nt vote on it, i think he suspected Junckers allies in the centralist parties would vote down the motion, the result was a forgone conclusion before it started.

Good then him and all his mates can do us all a favour and retire

No chance of that happening until Britain leaves the EU, or the EU collapses like the deck of cards it is. Farage and UKIP are here to stay.

I agree, they are going nowhere

. Good night!

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"While we have a cheery chat about Juncker, which UKIP MEP didn't vote to censure him when given the opportunity?

I'll give you a clue, his initials are NF.

And it was his own motion.

Yes i know Farage did'nt vote on it, i think he suspected Junckers allies in the centralist parties would vote down the motion, the result was a forgone conclusion before it started.

Good then him and all his mates can do us all a favour and retire

No chance of that happening until Britain leaves the EU, or the EU collapses like the deck of cards it is. Farage and UKIP are here to stay.

I agree, they are going nowhere

. Good night! "

You talk about fascists twisting words but you just mis-quoted me.

I was very careful in my reply not to use the words you did, i carfully said they are here to stay.

Good night!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"While we have a cheery chat about Juncker, which UKIP MEP didn't vote to censure him when given the opportunity?

I'll give you a clue, his initials are NF.

And it was his own motion.

Yes i know Farage did'nt vote on it, i think he suspected Junckers allies in the centralist parties would vote down the motion, the result was a forgone conclusion before it started.

Good then him and all his mates can do us all a favour and retire

No chance of that happening until Britain leaves the EU, or the EU collapses like the deck of cards it is. Farage and UKIP are here to stay.

I agree, they are going nowhere

. Good night!

You talk about fascists twisting words but you just mis-quoted me.

I was very careful in my reply not to use the words you did, i carfully said they are here to stay.

Good night!"

Cheers - no twisting of words at all. They may be here to stay but they're going nowhere.

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By *nnejohnCouple over a year ago

warrington

These are feelings many have had for years. The main political parties have known this too and have been talking of a referendum on EU membership for a long time now. Yet it never happens.

So, it is little wonder that UKIP has prospered while those who want out of Europe have been ignored for such a long time.

The next year promises to be the most interesting and momentous 12 months in British politics for a long, long time. Matt

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

But, like all separatist and secessionist lobbies around the world, they never accept the result and constantly want another and another and another until they finally get the result they want.

It is no coincidence that the rise of anti EU feeling across Europe has exploded over the last 10 or so years.

i think i love you,lol

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By *ratty_DamselWoman over a year ago

London.

UKIP is just another 'political' (loose term indeed in this case) party that is racist and uses the 'rule and divide' vote for the stupid, to feel empowered.

At the end of the day they will look after themselves & their cronies whilst sniggering at the very electorate who vote them in, whilst they screw them in all manner of ways too.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What most UKIP voters i think hope for is to get enough MP's in the general election to maybe form a coalition with the tories, "

Cameron has already stated that the possibility of a referendum only exists IF there is no coalition. So I suspect that he is also hoping to get in as a minority government forced into a coalition with anybody. As that is the way of giving a referendum.

Don't be fooled by the speeches, None of the parties especially UKIP want to get out of the EU. They would not then have anyone to lay the blame on and would have to take full responsibility...

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"The European Court of Auditors has been the EU’s external auditor since its establishment in October 1977

And not once have they signed the books off....because they have never been balanced/legal/free from totally corrupt practices!

Also, the EU has to balance its books by law every single year unlike national governments

You really need to stick with the truth. That's the main commodity that's getting corrupted.

European court of auditors, now do they come under the internal umbrella of the EU i wonder? I suspect they do "

Well why don't you go and check for yourself instead of just 'suspecting' that they do.
" and are they to be trusted anymore than Jean Claude Juncker investigating himself for tax avoidance schemes in Luxembourg,"
So it's legal tax avoidance now, not illegal tax evasion, which is what you originally claimed
" much the same way FIFA has investigated itself in the past....the word whitewash springs to mind.

"
I don't care about FIFA but if you think there is a whitewash going on in the EU accounts then show some proof of it, some document or accounts that show what you are saying might be true. At the moment it's just another totally unsubstantiated allegation. You've been shown proof that what you were saying was wrong and, rather than counter it with other proof you just say .Don't care. I don't believe you proof because it might be part of the whitewash. Well show us some evidence of this whitewash please.

I can tell you now Juncker will not be found guilty of tax avoidence schemes in Luxembourg, he is hardly going to find himself guilty now is he.

Well as tax avoidance is not a crime you're totally right, he won't find himself guilty of anything because no crime has been committed. People talk a lot of crap about tax avoidance but the reality is that NO ONE ever has willing paid more tax than they legally have. If any one here is paying more tax than they legally have to then please step forward. Also if the entity is a public company it would be illegal for them to pay more tax than they legally have to as their primary legal responsibility is to their share holders. Not to mention the possible civil cases that could be bought against the company directors for giving away the company's money or assets when not legally required to do so.
"

Also on the EU's finances,"
Now finally, after the usual UKIP diatribe of half troughs, exaggerated troughs, and denial of real evidence put before them, we finally get to something that is worthy of discussion
" interesting how the EU can come to the conclusion Britain must pay back 2 billion which they back dated to 1995, much for what our economy earned on the black market, prostitution, illegal drugs, etc, and as our economy is growing now call it a tax on success if you like.

At the same time France'e economy is going backwards and Germanys economy is pretty much flatlining, and they get a big rebate???

Call it reward for failure if you like?

And while the EU were backdating our contribution to the mid 90's did they add into their calculations that Tony Blair gave away our rebate during his time in office for nothing in return?

I bet they conveniently forgot about that one did'nt they?

And I agree that that is wrong but that's hardly a good reason for leaving the EU, the Greeks still won't get any more money nor the Germans any less, in fact the only way to possibly right this wrong is to stay in the EU and reform it.
"

So no, sorry not convinced the EU's books are in order i'm afraid."

But as you've shown no evidence of this and evidence that you are wrong has been show which, so far, you have chosen not to refute with anything that can be substantiated or checked, just a general remark that basically says 'if it's not what I already believe then I'm not going to believe it' why should any one believe you.

I certainly hope that the rest of the UKIP supporters are like you because, in the heat of a general election campaign and a possible referendum, those sort of unsubstantiated allegations and half troughs will be seen through, just as the SNP's were in Scotland.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don't like the EU

I don't like Europeans either, they've got a long history of being fascist bastards and sooner or later there'll revert to type.

You like it so much, go and live there.

Me I'm voting ukip because I want out and I'm hoping others will too, but I'll get along just fine either way.

Cool. Confess to xenophobia, at least that's honest.

Again, as matter of fact, I already live in Europe. In England. Part of Europe and proud of it.

I also lived in England before it was part of Europe and believe me it wasn't good.

Though of course you won't believe me.

"
.You lived in England before it was in Europe... Like 600 million years ago!!.

I've read some bollocks tonight and to be honest, I don't give a shit if you wish to label me xenophobic.

You stated you hate people mixing up facts and then declare facts that are borderline truthful as if it's the gospel according to you who the almighty who knows best.

I don't know what's best,I admit that, but what I do believe in is an informed public that have a stake in their lives.

It's been declared as fact tonight that Switzerland adopts eu law, that the eu is fully transparent with perfectly signed off accounts, neither of which are true.

Switzerland has direct democracy the people have a right to veto any laws made by their own elected parliament, they hold many referendum every year, voting on things from minimum wage (of which they have a very high one 3500 Euros a month) to tax,s(of which they have very low ones) they have a very prosperous country where is businesses find it quite easy to do business even though most of the laws are implemented democratically by the people.

So yes I put my faith in freedom and direct democracy for people to choose how they see best.

The EU has been heavily criticised for many accounting errors and scandals for which only recently the entire commission had to resign due to a whistleblower.

It's totally undemocratic, you can't keep harping on about voting for meps when Brussels works in the exact opposite way!, it's unelected civil servants that make the EU laws , your elected representative only implements it in its best way.

The entire EU is one long line of corporate spinning bullshit, as it stands today, there is approximately 15-30 thousand lobbyists in Brussels(it's a voluntary register) and we all know that lobbyists (which is usually money dominated) decide the real influence of laws!.

Like gm corn that despite lots of scientific evidence available that it's bad for humans and causes cancer the EU food commission has approved for consumption.... But wait low and behold over 60% of the commission is/has worked for the food industry!. And left to their own devices we all know what the food industry would put in our food... Horse meat anyone!...

Let's have true democracy, let's have people voting on issues monthly, stop relying on some elected representative expert to make decisions for you, look up the facts yourself and vote on it just like the Swiss do.

The EU by their own admission is an "unimperial empire" and we all know how empires end up?.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"I don't like the EU

I don't like Europeans either, they've got a long history of being fascist bastards and sooner or later there'll revert to type.

You like it so much, go and live there.

Me I'm voting ukip because I want out and I'm hoping others will too, but I'll get along just fine either way.

Cool. Confess to xenophobia, at least that's honest.

Again, as matter of fact, I already live in Europe. In England. Part of Europe and proud of it.

I also lived in England before it was part of Europe and believe me it wasn't good.

Though of course you won't believe me.

.You lived in England before it was in Europe... Like 600 million years ago!!.

I've read some bollocks tonight and to be honest, I don't give a shit if you wish to label me xenophobic.

You stated you hate people mixing up facts and then declare facts that are borderline truthful as if it's the gospel according to you who the almighty who knows best.

I don't know what's best,I admit that, but what I do believe in is an informed public that have a stake in their lives.

It's been declared as fact tonight that Switzerland adopts eu law, that the eu is fully transparent with perfectly signed off accounts, neither of which are true.

So yes I put my faith in freedom and direct democracy for people to choose how they see best.

The EU has been heavily criticised for many accounting errors and scandals for which only recently the entire commission had to resign due to a whistleblower.

The EU by their own admission is an "unimperial empire" and we all know how empires end up?."

No. I'm not going to have another long debate with you tonight. I've said what I think about referendum and we'll just have to accept that we see democracy in a different way. OK

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

But, like all separatist and secessionist lobbies around the world, they never accept the result and constantly want another and another and another until they finally get the result they want.

Which sort of prove my point that referendum are a complete waist of time and solve nothing.

It should be noted that Free Movement of Labour does mean free movement of entitlement to benefits etc."

Actually, what you said was 'separatist and secessionist lobbies' don't accept the rests of referendums.... not ' the losing side'.... so your original point was that the separatists will never be happy. The difference between the seperatist voters and the EU sending countries back until they get the required answer should be obvious though... for example, in Scotland, the separatist movement cannot 'order' another referendum... if the separatists had won in Scotland by a small margin, do you honestly think that the UK government would have said ok to that, or more likely that they would have forced a second, or even third referendum until they got their required answer?

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

Also, Switzerland has a very similar deal and has adopted large chunks of European law including the free movement of labour. They also make a contribution to the EU budget."

So why couldn't we pull out of the EU but still maintain our trade links with it?

The referendum we had in 75 was to be a part of an Economic Community, not of a political union.

And the Swiss had a vote earlier in the year in immigration and voted massively against it, they are still trying to find ways of restricting immigration from the EU countries into Switzerland whist bring a member of the EEA.

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

Or at least have the right to discuss, consider and vote according to what we believe is best.

Well yer, that's what we're doing and why we have elections.

You and politicians do not have the right to take that away from me.

Do you?

I don't have the right to take anything away from you but I do have the right to argue that I think referendum are a bad way to make decisions and ultimately are a complete waist of time."

I'm confused about your stance on referendum... on the one hand you say they are pointless, whilst on the other hand you are saying ; yes, but you do realise that if UKIP. get in, you won't have a referendum'...

So what you are saying is that the 3 main parties are offering a referendum on the EU,(and you think any of them won't renege on that?) whereas UKIP will just pull out if they are voted in next year? And you disagree with UKIP doing this? Yet, you say that we have elections to vote in governments to represent us.... we would not need another referendum if UKIP were voted in, as pulling out of the EU is one of the issues that they would be voted in on... they are not, however. against maintaining trading agreements with the EU.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

The UKIP message is that Europe and the Euro is a doomed basket case and we are better off out of it.

Let's be clear. The collapse of Europe and its currency will be a disaster of epic proportions to the world economy (including Britain) whether we are in or out. The motions being presented to Europe by the UK in order to bring some order to the free movement of people are sensible and Britain will be far better off as a strong voice in Europe rather than being outside.

It is an incredibly selfish attitude to want to prevent your children and grandchildren from being able to work anywhere they want in Europe just because of the thought that there are too many immigrants coming into the UK. Take it to another level and imagine that your own country put restrictions of movement so that if you born in some godforsaken part of Britain ( like Scotland

for example) you would never be able to live in any other part of the country unless you had enough "points."

If the benefits restrictions are put in place and the Europe can organise a joined up Police and crime policy there should be no reason at all why anyone would object to immigrants coming along to improve our already successful economy. We have all seen that EU migrants give more to the economy than they take out so if we are to know that there will be little or no benefit "benefits" and plenty of tax benefits who would object?

PS in relation to above posts about Britain trading with Europe but not part of it. That is EFTA and UKIP want no part of that either.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

Actually we did have a referendum on whether we should be in Europe or out. It was in 1975 and the majority decided we should be in.

But, like all separatist and secessionist lobbies around the world, they never accept the result and constantly want another and another and another until they finally get the result they want.

Which sort of prove my point that referendum are a complete waist of time and solve nothing.

It should be noted that Free Movement of Labour does mean free movement of entitlement to benefits etc.

I did say separatist and secessionist movements because they are the main ones that want referendum and normally, when the facts are properly laid out, lose them. However it was pointed at to me that it's not just separatists and secessionists that don't accept the results of referendum so I've changed what I was saying. I now say it's all loser in referendum don't accept the result and try to arrange a new referendum as soon as possible to get the result they wanted.

The only difference I see between secessionists and the any government organisation wanting a referendum as soon as possible if they lose is that the government organisation has the power to make it happen sooner.

If the nationalist had won in Scotland by a small majority I think the UK government would have said go. There would have been a lot of difficult negotiations but they would have let go. I also believe that the unionists in Scotland would have started campaigning for re-unification and, especially if things had not worked out well for Scotland as an independent country, there would have been another referendum in 10 to 20 years on the issue of re-unification.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

Also, Switzerland has a very similar deal and has adopted large chunks of European law including the free movement of labour. They also make a contribution to the EU budget.

So why couldn't we pull out of the EU but still maintain our trade links with it?

The referendum we had in 75 was to be a part of an Economic Community, not of a political union.

We could do that, in which case we would be in exactly the same situation as Norway and Switzerland which is, in order to trade in the EU, they have to enact pretty much every rule coming out of Brussels but have absolutely no say at all in what the rules are. I think that would turn out to be far less advantages than our current position of being involved in the decision making process.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

Or at least have the right to discuss, consider and vote according to what we believe is best.

Well yer, that's what we're doing and why we have elections.

You and politicians do not have the right to take that away from me.

Do you?

I don't have the right to take anything away from you but I do have the right to argue that I think referendum are a bad way to make decisions and ultimately are a complete waist of time.

My point was/is that the person saying they may vote UKIP was also saying that he felt the people should have the right to deside if we stay in the EU via a referendum. I was simply pointing out that UKIP is the only party that is definitely NOT offering a referendum whereas all the others are. Whether you believe any of the others will actually give one was not the point.

I think anyone who has read the full thread will know exactly what my position is but to make it clear this is it.

I am not in favour of the UK leaving the EU.

I am not in favour of referendum as a way of deciding ANY issue.

I have given the reasons why I disfavour both things in quite extensive detail further up in the thread.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The UKIP message is that Europe and the Euro is a doomed basket case and we are better off out of it.

for example) you would never be able to live in any other part of the country unless you had enough "points."

PS in relation to above posts about Britain trading with Europe but not part of it. That is EFTA and UKIP want no part of that either."
.

I like it when people use the sentence "let's be clear", it's usually followed by a persons own opinion like.

Helping our successful economy!. (The con/dem governments only plan for reviving our economy was exporting more, hence why they lowered the value of sterling to assist this... Have you checked the recent figures on exports by any chance?).

Europe and the euro are doomed! (Now for someone like yourself who constantly harps on about how shite left wing governments are and how having massive debt cripples economies!.... Have you seen the current socialist utopias debt problem?).

To be in the EFTA involves taking laws from the eu?!... It kinda defeats the object of leaving the EU to make your own laws!!.

And lastly if you really think companies like BMW, Mercedes,miele and Citroen would pull out of trading with GB and selling us their products, one of their biggest customers just because we're not in the eu!! . hardly believable is it and if their selling us there cars then we can sell them our products.

The problem with unionists is they always try and scare the opposition to death with economic doom, just like they did in Scotland and just like your trying to do with the EU.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Or at least have the right to discuss, consider and vote according to what we believe is best.

Well yer, that's what we're doing and why we have elections.

You and politicians do not have the right to take that away from me.

Do you?

I don't have the right to take anything away from you but I do have the right to argue that I think referendum are a bad way to make decisions and ultimately are a complete waist of time.

I think anyone who has read the full thread will know exactly what my position is but to make it clear this is it.

I am not in favour of the UK leaving the EU.

I am not in favour of referendum as a way of deciding ANY issue.

I have given the reasons why I disfavour both things in quite extensive detail further up in the thread."

I have never said I would vote for UKIP, OP. Indeed, I'm not happy with many of their policies, so while I support the idea of independence from Europe, I cannot support the party for other reasons, such as their stance on gun control. What I have repeatedly stated, however, is that I would like the chance to vote, through a referendum, on whether we should stay in Europe or not. You said to another poster that you have different ideas on democracy: we advocate the idea of a democratic referendum on such an important issue as membership of the European union. Yet you say that we should not have this right. That is not democratic. Why can't the Europhiles embrace the idea of a referendum and then try to show Eurosceptics like me the error of our ways? Surely that is truly the idea behind democracy, the people deciding? I understand your reservations about having repeated referenda over the same issue but is it unreasonable for people like me to want the opportunity to vote just once on this issue?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Also, Switzerland has a very similar deal and has adopted large chunks of European law including the free movement of labour. They also make a contribution to the EU budget.

So why couldn't we pull out of the EU but still maintain our trade links with it?

The referendum we had in 75 was to be a part of an Economic Community, not of a political union.

Apart from they can veto any law they choose just like Norway have just done with their post offices and even though as you say they don't like having a voice...

Last time I looked 80% of Norway and Switzerland are in favour of staying out of the EU, hardly the stance of a bunch of people that hate having no voice

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Or at least have the right to discuss, consider and vote according to what we believe is best.

Well yer, that's what we're doing and why we have elections.

You and politicians do not have the right to take that away from me.

Do you?

I don't have the right to take anything away from you but I do have the right to argue that I think referendum are a bad way to make decisions and ultimately are a complete waist of time.

I think anyone who has read the full thread will know exactly what my position is but to make it clear this is it.

I am not in favour of the UK leaving the EU.

I am not in favour of referendum as a way of deciding ANY issue.

I have given the reasons why I disfavour both things in quite extensive detail further up in the thread.

... Because europhiles hate democracy .

The EU is not just undemocratic it's antidemocratic.

90% of the commissioners are failed politicians who got voted out only for the intelligent we know better eurocrats to give them a job!.

And then they also like ousting elected prime minister's like Greece and Italy and replacing them with unelected civil servants.

Yeah they love democracy so much then EU Bunch.... Their just afraid of the answer!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Speaking as a Scot with a turnout of 85% for our last democratic exercise I find a lot of the arguments re Europe a little funny.

What happened to "better together " or "sharing the risk spreading the benefits".

Up here we are clear we want to stay in. The big question is what happens if RUK votes to leave?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Also, Switzerland has a very similar deal and has adopted large chunks of European law including the free movement of labour. They also make a contribution to the EU budget.

So why couldn't we pull out of the EU but still maintain our trade links with it?

The referendum we had in 75 was to be a part of an Economic Community, not of a political union.

Reins the horses in

(Relaxed writing) As a dual citizen of Gods' Won Country and Switzerland wish to point the following out

Per Febr. 2014 the Swiss citizen said that they wished a change in the relationship to the EU limiting the number of EU citizens coming into Switzerland and this by 51% Yes votes to 49% No votes.

Switzerland is not Germany/France/the UK but is a Direct Democratic system (a bit like ancient Greece) where as every Swiss citizen has a vote and therefore can if necessary collect 150,000 signatures and demand a vote on anything.

Switzerland does not pay into the EU but contributes to education programs, transport links and policing nothing else. However due to the pressure from Brussels (bully bully) they have had to change many laws to reflect "the straight bananas" required by Brussels.

Switzerland is an export country and has (not like Britain or Norway) any natural resources and therefore is depended on a highly trained and clever work force producing parts and products demanded by others.

Norway, Island and Switzerland are all Efta members and try and lobby Brussels for equal rights - but as Brussels is run by Bureaucrats who either never have worked in real life do not speak more then 1 language it is very difficult to obtain any leverage.

The same however counts for the UK - Simple question for all Fab members how many languages do you speak ?

In Switzerland at school you are "forced" to learn German and French plus a third language such as English/Italian.

Without this "bonus" the Swiss (And the Norwegians they speak on average 3 languages) would have not even got a foot in the door in Brussels now ask the same of our "dear" political leaders - How fluent is Mr David Cameron or Ed Miliband or N Glegg's German ?

This as Germany "rules" the rooster in Brussels and no one else

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

Or at least have the right to discuss, consider and vote according to what we believe is best.

Well yer, that's what we're doing and why we have elections.

You and politicians do not have the right to take that away from me.

Do you?

I don't have the right to take anything away from you but I do have the right to argue that I think referendum are a bad way to make decisions and ultimately are a complete waist of time.

I think anyone who has read the full thread will know exactly what my position is but to make it clear this is it.

I am not in favour of the UK leaving the EU.

I am not in favour of referendum as a way of deciding ANY issue.

I have given the reasons why I disfavour both things in quite extensive detail further up in the thread.

I'm sorry. I've re-read the last part of your comments before and accept that my original interpretation of what you were saying was wrong. It was quite late at night.

I don't think any one is trying to deny anybody else there democratic rights but democracy is not just about pandering to the latest populist request. It's about setting up processes that lead to stable government and protecting the interests of all the citizens. I believe that is best achieved through a representative democracy and not via a popular vote of the people on every, or even any, single issue.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

Also, Switzerland has a very similar deal and has adopted large chunks of European law including the free movement of labour. They also make a contribution to the EU budget.

So why couldn't we pull out of the EU but still maintain our trade links with it?

The referendum we had in 75 was to be a part of an Economic Community, not of a political union.

Apart from they can veto any law they choose just like Norway have just done with their post offices and even though as you say they don't like having a voice...

Last time I looked 80% of Norway and Switzerland are in favour of staying out of the EU, hardly the stance of a bunch of people that hate having no voice

Well actually no they can't veto any law they want and still trade with-in the EU. They may be able to not implement some edge laws, similar to the opt-outs that Britain has, but if they don't implement the main rules within their law they can't trade freely in the EU.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

"Speaking as a Scot with a turnout of 85% for our last democratic exercise I find a lot of the arguments re Europe a little funny.

What happened to "better together " or "sharing the risk spreading the benefits".

Up here we are clear we want to stay in. The big question is what happens if RUK votes to leave?"

I totally agree, I find it inconsistent to. What will happen if UK votes to leave the EU. The next Scottish independence referendum will be a lot sooner than even I currently thought it would be.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

Or at least have the right to discuss, consider and vote according to what we believe is best.

Well yer, that's what we're doing and why we have elections.

You and politicians do not have the right to take that away from me.

Do you?

I don't have the right to take anything away from you but I do have the right to argue that I think referendum are a bad way to make decisions and ultimately are a complete waist of time.

I think anyone who has read the full thread will know exactly what my position is but to make it clear this is it.

I am not in favour of the UK leaving the EU.

I am not in favour of referendum as a way of deciding ANY issue.

I have given the reasons why I disfavour both things in quite extensive detail further up in the thread.

...

Because europhiles hate democracy .

The EU is not just undemocratic it's antidemocratic.

90% of the commissioners are failed politicians who got voted out only for the intelligent we know better eurocrats to give them a job!.

And then they also like ousting elected prime minister's like Greece and Italy and replacing them with unelected civil servants.

Yeah they love democracy so much then EU Bunch.... Their just afraid of the answer!"

Well I'm not a Europhile I am a Eurosceptic. I'm just not a Europhobe.

As has been said before, If the EU fails Britain will not be immune from the results. The ONLY chance we have of creating a successful EU is by changing it and that can best be done by having a seat at the decision making table. It's just common sense really.

All the things that the Europhobes say is wrong about the EU will still be wrong if we leave and will still have a direct consequence on the UK. We just won't be able to do anything about it at all.

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

I'd like major change in British politics but ukip is not anything new or fresh. It's establishment all the way. Millionaires run and fund it who don't care about the ordinary working person.

Expect loss of employment rights and protection, as well as lowered wages.

Minorities like myself will be at serious risk of losing protection in work and society.

Did anyone supporting ukip read their manifesto? It should scare you.

I don't normally vote out of self interest but is couldn't put myself at such risk - thankfully I couldn't put the country at such damning risk wmeither.

An opportunistic lightweight for leader who has teamed up with racist and homophobic parties in Europe - no moral backbone, who offshores his money and pays less UK tax as a result.

Claims cash from the EU when he has no expenses, just like expenses claimers from all main parties - we'd expect criminal convictions for doing this at work.

A thoroughly reprehensible, disgusting animal in the pretence of a man who is ymthere for you. His millionaire paymasters would demand priority and be given it. As deceitful as the best of the rest. Scum.

Don't know who I'll vote for but would disembowel myself happily before supporting vermin.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"The UKIP message is that Europe and the Euro is a doomed basket case and we are better off out of it.

for example) you would never be able to live in any other part of the country unless you had enough "points."

PS in relation to above posts about Britain trading with Europe but not part of it. That is EFTA and UKIP want no part of that either..

I like it when people use the sentence "let's be clear", it's usually followed by a persons own opinion like.

To be in the EFTA involves taking laws from the eu?!... It kinda defeats the object of leaving the EU to make your own laws!!.

The problem with unionists is they always try and scare the opposition to death with economic doom, just like they did in Scotland and just like your trying to do with the EU."

Without deciphering all your post. Just one point. If you dont understand that an EU / Euro failure will be catastrophic to the world (and the UK) then nothing else that you say can be taken seriously. It is very, very clear that such an event would be catastrophic. The UK input into the EU is currently the path of caution and being out of the EU means that our voice is lost, our influence is lost but we will not be lost from the consequences. It is not about fear, it is about reality and in case you had not noticed - the UK is the best performing economy in the EU no matter how much you try to downplay it. Maybe, just maybe that is why we attract so many hardworking immigrants?

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"The European Court of Auditors has been the EU’s external auditor since its establishment in October 1977

And not once have they signed the books off....because they have never been balanced/legal/free from totally corrupt practices!

Also, the EU has to balance its books by law every single year unlike national governments

You really need to stick with the truth. That's the main commodity that's getting corrupted."

The European Court of Auditors (ECA) is also the fifth institution of the EU. It is no more "external" than the commission itself, so in effect it is the EU auditing itself.

Having said that they don't do too bad a job and while it is true that they have not fully signed off the books for 19 years to be fair in some of those years the discrepancies have only been clerical errors.

However in other years (most notably the 1996 audit that led to the resignation of Jaques Santer's commission en bloc) the auditors have found evidence of serious fraud and been obstructed in their efforts by the commission.

Even the the most recent 2013 audit highlighted that 5.5 billion Euro's had been misspent (whatever that may mean) and that 109 billion out of a total budget of 117 billion was "affected by material error” (again, whatever that may mean)

Just to add to the hypocrisy of the commission. They have only this year pushed through new rules to force large company's to rotate their external auditors every 10 years, yet themselves use internal auditors with no rotation.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Well actually no they can't veto any law they want and still trade with-in the EU. They may be able to not implement some edge laws, similar to the opt-outs that Britain has, but if they don't implement the main rules within their law they can't trade freely in the EU."

Just one question? If a country has to adopt all the EU rules or else it can't trade with the EU when can we see the USA doing just that? and when did China sign the application form? Sorry that was two questions.

People who play the 'you can't leave the EU' card forget we have the option under the Lisbon Treaty to signal our intention to leave NOW and have two years to agree the exit conditions. And under EU law the Commission can NOT penalise a leaving country. Its never been done before because of the threats and bluster and bollocks talked by the EU that have kept people in. "Fear of the unknown is corruptions best friend"

We are also protected under WTO rules and the EU will not be allowed to penalise our industries against their own. As the USA found out protecting Boeing against Airbus.

And finally the EU industries need our market more than we need theirs and anyone who thinks VW will suddenly stop selling cars here or BMW will stop selling and building cars here is living in EU loving cuckoo land! I would argue the sooner we get the hell away from that sinking ship the better. We can then tell our Police to buy British cars and not German while the Germans always buy ... German.

We joined a Common Market and ended up in a failed political superstate. We need a referendum NOW and we need to get the hell out. If Cameron wants to be the next PM he needs to a) bite the bullet and do a deal with Farage to avoid a back door Labour Government and b) spike UKIPs's guns by offering a referendum in May 2016 and tell the EU to negotiate or we leave.

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By *dam_TinaCouple over a year ago

Hampshire

" We can then tell our Police to buy British cars and not German while the Germans always buy ... German.

Just one question.....which 'british cars' will they buy ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

He wont get elected and we will see him as a washed up A lister celeb on the jungle next year eating crickets lol.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

" We can then tell our Police to buy British cars and not German while the Germans always buy ... German.

Just one question.....which 'british cars' will they buy ?"

does this include not buying swedish trucks and buying british lorries?

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

We are also protected under WTO rules and the EU will not be allowed to penalise our industries against their own. As the USA found out protecting Boeing against Airbus.

What I said was if other countries, and in particular EFTA countries, don't enact in their own law most if not all of the rulings of the EU they can not trade FREELY in the EU. Being able to trade freely with in the EU (or more correctly the Single Market as it includes EFTA as well) means being able to trade without the imposition trade tariffs import duties on your goods. Neither the USA or China have the right to trade freely within the Single Market. And if you've ever privately and legally imported goods from the US you'll know about import duties.

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By *nleashedCraken OP Man over a year ago

Widnes

It seems to me only logical and right that you can only have truly free trade between two countries if they are both following the same rule book. For example, it would not be possible to have truly free trade between two countries if, say, one has very strict health and safety rules and the other has non. The country with no H&S rules would simply flood the other countries market with its cheaper goods.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It seems to me only logical and right that you can only have truly free trade between two countries if they are both following the same rule book. For example, it would not be possible to have truly free trade between two countries if, say, one has very strict health and safety rules and the other has non. The country with no H&S rules would simply flood the other countries market with its cheaper goods. "
.That's why we had British standards for years.

These just got replaced with en standards.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

We are also protected under WTO rules and the EU will not be allowed to penalise our industries against their own. As the USA found out protecting Boeing against Airbus.

Yeah China have a right old problem pedaling there shit in those pound shops hey.

Or those apple phones made in China for an American company.. So hard to get hold of with those tricky importing rules

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Just one question.....which 'british cars' will they buy ?"

What a dumb question....

Land Rover Discovery rather than BMW X5 for starters. want me to go on?

We build the best cars in the world right here in Britain and cover every sector or model range right here. So my point is that why can't WE do what the Germans, French Italians et al do and make our Police and Emergency services by home built products? Why is British Taxpayer money being sent abroad needlessly. Take care of us first I say.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Just one question.....which 'british cars' will they buy ?

does this include not buying swedish trucks and buying british lorries?

Not sure the Police buy too many trucks but by 'Swedish' do you mean 'foreign'? DAF trucks are built here in PACCAR-owned Leyland Trucks in Leyland Lancashire (surprise!)and its the largest producer and exporter of trucks in the UK and has the capacity for 25,000 DAF trucks each year. I am sure they would be happy to look at a 44 Te Panda Car....

And the Fire Service should certainly be told to put the British made firefighting gear on a British made truck rather than Scania and MAN chassis. And I know a bit about those as I worked on them. Why not its what every other European Country does?

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By *arry247Couple over a year ago

Wakefield

"This is without doubt, the best debate on UKIP yet.

No name calling, and some well written posts from both side of the fence.

Most people know which side of the fence I'm on, and that I strongly feel the EU is the most corrupt organisation ever (but only if you take FIFA out of the equation)and I want out of it

If we ever get a referendum on membership of the EU and the British electorate voted to stay, I would gladly walk away and never broach the subject of it again.

I will desist at this stage of writing my usual post when UKIP threads come up "

For those who wonder about what people voted for in the 1975 Referendum try reading the pamphlets at

http://www.civitas.org.uk/eufacts/1975ref.php

The no campaign pamphlet was very prophetic.

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

errr ... landrover stopped being british in 1994. profit from selling a fleet to the police would profit an indian company.

how does that help?

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

" Just one question.....which 'british cars' will they buy ?

does this include not buying swedish trucks and buying british lorries?

again .... not british companies

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I would not argue with anyone saying we have trade rules and live by them. Sadly its what we Brits do but others do not. And I voted for just that but if you think we have the same H & S rules and enforcement as Brazil, China, India and even the USA I fear we are not on the same book let alone page.

What I didn't vote for was open borders, Welfare payments to non residents, EU dictats telling our fishermen they can't fish waters they have fished for centuries while Spaniards can, we can't do this and we can't do that while everyone else can.

We can leave tomorrow and the EU would HAVE to agree a non discriminatory settlement with us as (the first) ex member state protected by additional WTO rules. Goods will still transit freely as we all have VAT systems in place and that's all we need to have. They could not levy protectionist tariffs against us as they are done by industry and the WTO would step in. Everything else is political federalist crap.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"errr ... landrover stopped being british in 1994. profit from selling a fleet to the police would profit an indian company.

how does that help?"

errrr ... they are BUILT here and BRITISH line workers benefit from their wages, BRITISH suppliers benefit from the income and so benefit THEIR workers, local transport companies benefit from the income and so do THEIR workers and more importantly all the local economies. Personally I don't mind if profits do go to India or wherever as long as they keep investing (over £20Million in '12 / '13) in the new engine plants employing highly skilled workers and new products keeping leading edge British designers in work. You do realise that the 'Swedish' truck you mentioned is actually built in Belgium? So what? All I know its not built here...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" again .... not british companies"

Again built here and worth £Millions to the local and British economies. Is actually one of the most efficient truck plants in Europe. And again if a foreign owner thinks its a good idea to spend £Millions here as an investment the least we can do is use our taxpayer £ to support a home based industry. Or do you think we owe more allegiance to the Germans for example?

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 01/12/14 18:51:26]

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By *its_n_piecesCouple over a year ago

We are also protected under WTO rules and the EU will not be allowed to penalise our industries against their own. As the USA found out protecting Boeing against Airbus.

and so you advocate interfering in the market .... the breaking of the biggest mantra of capitalism. so either capitalism is working because we don't interfere which results in foreign workers accepting lower wages than the "traditional" norm or we admit that capitalism has not succeeded and we apply protectionism by public sector boycotting of overseas goods and immigration controls ..... none of this adds up .... the unions tried to protect british jobs in this way in the 70's and 80's but they had the rug pulled out from under their feet by the 80's moneterist government and a workforce that was coerced into abondoning them for the promise of a more affluent way of life. the chickens have come home to roost on this and the believers in the market have egg on their face. the world is a global economy now wether we like it or not and this means that if you wages stagnate or deflate from a fluid market then do something about it at a personal level instead of finger pointing.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

As a lot seem to believe theres only 4 parties, there are actually more.

I'll be voting Green.

Completely ignored by the media as the media is clearly controlled.

4 main parties, no one in government cares who wins, they just leave and go to the one they think will win, rather than what they'd do for the country.

All run by rich who dont care about anyone but themselves.

The 4 main ones wanna sell off bits of the nhs, esp since they all happily took donations off rich private companies.

Everyone goes on bout how green energy isnt the way to go, well perhaps it is, think bout your kids for start, world is being destroyed by all this fossil fuels, nuclear is even worse to go for. Hell we could create 1000s jobs making green energy products, sell them to other parts of the world and use them ourselves.

Fracking isnt needed at all.

Did i hear correctly that ukip wanna allow guns with a license, wow.

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By *dam_TinaCouple over a year ago

Hampshire

want me to go on?

No thank you. You said my question was dumb and then changed your stance from 'british cars' to being one of foreign investment in the uk. Each of your posts sounds like that of a politician. You should stand.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

"The European Court of Auditors has been the EU’s external auditor since its establishment in October 1977

And not once have they signed the books off....because they have never been balanced/legal/free from totally corrupt practices!

Also, the EU has to balance its books by law every single year unlike national governments

You really need to stick with the truth. That's the main commodity that's getting corrupted.

The European Court of Auditors (ECA) is also the fifth institution of the EU. It is no more "external" than the commission itself, so in effect it is the EU auditing itself.

Thanks you just saved me having to do a whole lot of typing there, people on here who think the EU's accounts stand up to scrutiny when it comes to corruption are clearly delusional.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Or at least have the right to discuss, consider and vote according to what we believe is best.

Well yer, that's what we're doing and why we have elections.

You and politicians do not have the right to take that away from me.

Do you?

I don't have the right to take anything away from you but I do have the right to argue that I think referendum are a bad way to make decisions and ultimately are a complete waist of time.

I think anyone who has read the full thread will know exactly what my position is but to make it clear this is it.

I am not in favour of the UK leaving the EU.

I am not in favour of referendum as a way of deciding ANY issue.

I have given the reasons why I disfavour both things in quite extensive detail further up in the thread.

I'm sorry. I've re-read the last part of your comments before and accept that my original interpretation of what you were saying was wrong. It was quite late at night.

Your points about referendums never deciding anything to a satisfactory conclusion are wrong. As i pointed out in one of my earlier posts the Lib dems called for a referendum on changing the way we vote from first past the post to a proportional representation system. This was accepted by the tories when the coalition was formed and the Lib dems then lost the referendum. The Lib dems have accepted the result and have not called for another referendum. This is how democracy works, just from the difference of opinion on this thread from people, its clear the UK badly needs a referendum on the europe issue, let the people decide at the ballot box!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well the question was rather dumb sorry. You seemed to want to make a point about ownership rather than where things are made. I was merely suggesting our tax money should benefit British jobs not German or French or whatever. The Germans follow just that principle of only buying at home which is of course contrary to EU law ... but we move on ...

Maybe you disagree I don't know we never got an answer. But for me if a car is built here its British as far as purchasing with our money is concerned. We have British built Hondas, Nissans, Toyotas, Land Rovers, Jaguars, Minis, Vauxhalls etc so are you really saying there isn't a satisfactory car for the Police made in Britain?

Where was the political bias in my post about buying British? Cheap shot?