FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > ched evens ?

ched evens ?

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

sheffield have now retracted his right to train ? he served his time regardless of if he was guilty and now he cant return to play i think its pathetic he served his time !!!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But he is and will always be a convicted rapist and is thus a very poor role model. I don't believe he should be allowed to play football professionally again.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

He terminated his contract of employment by failing to turn up for work due to the result (prison) of his own actions.

So there is no obligation to re-employ him, only to consider him on an equal footing for any new position, which would then take into account his suitability as a public role model amongst many other factors.

He may have served his time, but he's still a convicted sex offender....

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

If I recall correctly you posted in support of him before.

I imagine the club are responding to many of their sponsors withdrawing support and people asking for their association with the club to end.

I'm in two minds on the subject but if I went to prison I wouldn't have my job waiting for me on my release I would have to compete with everyone else on the open jobs market and take whatever job I could get or live on benefits. I can't see a problem with him having to do the same.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Its a really difficult question in my opinion. On the one hand you have the issue of him being in the public eye, and a potential role model.

Then on the other, he has served his sentence and therefore punishment is complete. would we be having this conversation about say a mechanic who served his sentence and then wanted to go back to work fixing cars.

As i say, a difficult question given the particular circumstances.

There is then the issue of what if the Appeal Courts overturn his conviction subject to the CCRC referral?

The actual offence aside, given the circumstances of it, there are wider issues regarding respect for women etc Given the third party filming it through a window without the females consent.

The easy answer is to say no he shouldn't be allowed to play again and maintain a privileged position, but do we then advocate that someone should be punished for the rest of their days for an offence committed?

Im going round in circles a little.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"Its a really difficult question in my opinion. On the one hand you have the issue of him being in the public eye, and a potential role model.

As i say, a difficult question given the particular circumstances.

There is then the issue of what if the Appeal Courts overturn his conviction subject to the CCRC referral?

The actual offence aside, given the circumstances of it, there are wider issues regarding respect for women etc Given the third party filming it through a window without the females consent.

Im going round in circles a little."

I go round in circles with it too, hence my conclusions above.

If I was an accountant who committed any crime at all not just a financial one I would be unlikely to get employment in any finance related career. I would have no problem with him competing on the open jobs market.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Its a really difficult question in my opinion. On the one hand you have the issue of him being in the public eye, and a potential role model.

As i say, a difficult question given the particular circumstances.

There is then the issue of what if the Appeal Courts overturn his conviction subject to the CCRC referral?

The actual offence aside, given the circumstances of it, there are wider issues regarding respect for women etc Given the third party filming it through a window without the females consent.

Im going round in circles a little."

He hasn't served his sentence though, he is out on license. If he commits any crime he will be taken straight back to prison. He is also on the sex offenders register for life. This will restrict him in a lot of things that footballers do, one of them being meeting the mascots before the game and holding their hands as they walk onto the pitch.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Its a really difficult question in my opinion. On the one hand you have the issue of him being in the public eye, and a potential role model.

As i say, a difficult question given the particular circumstances.

There is then the issue of what if the Appeal Courts overturn his conviction subject to the CCRC referral?

The actual offence aside, given the circumstances of it, there are wider issues regarding respect for women etc Given the third party filming it through a window without the females consent.

Im going round in circles a little.

Apologies i meant the custodial element of the sentence.

He will be recalled to prison for anything that breaches his licence conditions, not just committing a further offence.

The register however won't prevent him from meeting mascots etc, the register just requires him to register his address, if he travels out of the country etc.

his licence conditions may prevent him from meeting mascots, but given the victim was over the age of consent, he is unlikely to have a conditions preventing contact with those under 16/18.

Once the licence has been completed that restriction would then go, unless a Sexual Offences Prevention Order (SOPO) was secured by the police.

I say police as i don't think that one was made by the sentencing court.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Its a really difficult question in my opinion. On the one hand you have the issue of him being in the public eye, and a potential role model.

As i say, a difficult question given the particular circumstances.

There is then the issue of what if the Appeal Courts overturn his conviction subject to the CCRC referral?

The actual offence aside, given the circumstances of it, there are wider issues regarding respect for women etc Given the third party filming it through a window without the females consent.

Im going round in circles a little.

Apologies i meant the custodial element of the sentence.

He will be recalled to prison for anything that breaches his licence conditions, not just committing a further offence.

The register however won't prevent him from meeting mascots etc, the register just requires him to register his address, if he travels out of the country etc.

his licence conditions may prevent him from meeting mascots, but given the victim was over the age of consent, he is unlikely to have a conditions preventing contact with those under 16/18.

Once the licence has been completed that restriction would then go, unless a Sexual Offences Prevention Order (SOPO) was secured by the police.

I say police as i don't think that one was made by the sentencing court."

Fair comment. But doesn't being on the sex offenders register restrict you from working with children ? I ask as I'm not too sure.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Its a really difficult question in my opinion. On the one hand you have the issue of him being in the public eye, and a potential role model.

As i say, a difficult question given the particular circumstances.

There is then the issue of what if the Appeal Courts overturn his conviction subject to the CCRC referral?

The actual offence aside, given the circumstances of it, there are wider issues regarding respect for women etc Given the third party filming it through a window without the females consent.

Im going round in circles a little.

Apologies i meant the custodial element of the sentence.

He will be recalled to prison for anything that breaches his licence conditions, not just committing a further offence.

The register however won't prevent him from meeting mascots etc, the register just requires him to register his address, if he travels out of the country etc.

his licence conditions may prevent him from meeting mascots, but given the victim was over the age of consent, he is unlikely to have a conditions preventing contact with those under 16/18.

Once the licence has been completed that restriction would then go, unless a Sexual Offences Prevention Order (SOPO) was secured by the police.

I say police as i don't think that one was made by the sentencing court.

Fair comment. But doesn't being on the sex offenders register restrict you from working with children ? I ask as I'm not too sure. "

No, the fact you are on the register doesn't preclude it, but the reality is, if on a CRB or enhanced CRB check it comes up that a job applicant has a conviction for a sex offence they won't get the job.

Actually been subject to its requirements does not prevent working with children however.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The club bowed down to pressure from the fans and the Sheffield wider community.

Their Chief Exec was annoyed that even though he's paid his debt that he was allowed to begin his rehabilitation. Which in my mind is a shame. As that's the socially acceptable system this country takes.

Personally, if I were Ched, I'd have made a public statement on release to say that I'd made a mistake, and that I'm sorry for my actions. I'd also say that I will be working hard with relevant charities to bring the message across to young people and young footballers of making the same mistake as me.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The club bowed down to pressure from the fans and the Sheffield wider community.

He can't do that as he is maintaining his innocence and has a case with the Criminal Cases Review Commission. if he did make such a statement it may be inferred as an admission of guilt which would jeopardise any referral to the Court of Appeal.

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By *uttyjonnMan over a year ago

SEA

"Their Chief Exec was annoyed that even though he's paid his debt that he was allowed to begin his rehabilitation."

I wonder if the 3 mill investment in him had any baring on this stance and would they be supportive if he was an average fullback.

Having said this - people released from prison should be allowed back into the social system and attempt to rebuild their life.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't buy into this 'role model' lark...maybe parents need to teach their kids to stop idolising footy players.

If he was a plumber trying to get another job it's no issue- just because his profession is in the public there is a need to see him suffer more than his sentence was.

The guy is not going to be able to move on and forget it as I'm sure away supporters will bait him until he retires.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Raising my tin hatted head above the parapet - twist this round slightly - how many jobs would be available to anyone on release from prison who was convicted of rape? Forget the notoriety and fame that's quite a biggie for any employer to consider when taking someone on

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Raising my tin hatted head above the parapet - twist this round slightly - how many jobs would be available to anyone on release from prison who was convicted of rape? Forget the notoriety and fame that's quite a biggie for any employer to consider when taking someone on "

Thats a very good point, as a society we need to consider what the purpose of prison is, is it to punish or is to rehabilitate.

If we want there to be rehabilitation as well as retribution, we can't then prevent that ongoing rehabilitation in the community by preventing a person from securing employment, which is often one of the big safety nets for anyone seeking to turn away from a life of crime.

The circumstances in this case are a little different i appreciate, and sex offences are particularly difficult to deal with for obvious reasons.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

exactly! i wouldnt want a plumber around my house who was a convicted rapist..a fact any employer would know!

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By *ifeRockChickWoman over a year ago

Dunfermline

He had shown no remorse for his crimes, if he was a teacher he wouldn't get to work with kids again, why should he be any different because he's a footballer ? It's like saying it's ok to go out and rape

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The guy is not going to be able to move on and forget it as I'm sure away supporters will bait him until he retires."

Do you honestly think Evans is the victim here ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I agree. Not many people would walk out of prison for a rape conviction and straight into a job. It's not a realistic expectation, so why should he be treated any different. I understand that he's served his time but i don't think he has the right to walk straight back into the job he was in before.

After McCormick (Plymouth goalie who crashed his car while over the limit killing 2 kids) was released he was back playing for smaller clubs very quickly and Plymouth eventually took him back. It basically meant he went straight back to his life as it was before the accident.

That wouldn't happen to anyone else but as they're decent footballers they get special privileges. It's send the wrong message to kids.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I work in healthcare and if I was convicted of certain offences, especially sexual offences, I'd lose not only my job but my entire career. Some jobs are simply not compatible with a serious criminal record and I believe his job should be one of them.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The club bowed down to pressure from the fans and the Sheffield wider community.

He can still say he made the mistake of getting into the whole situation whilst maintaining he didn't rape the woman.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If he was a plumber trying to get another job it's no issue- just because his profession is in the public there is a need to see him suffer more than his sentence was.

Would you allow a plumber who has a conviction for rape into your house to do work while your wife or daughter was there alone ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If I recall correctly you posted in support of him before.

I imagine the club are responding to many of their sponsors withdrawing support and people asking for their association with the club to end.

This!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You can't really compare him to a mechanic or a plumber, football players are in privileged positions and are seen as role models wether you like it or not. You could compare it to the likes of Rolf Harris or Stuart hall, I really can't see them working in showbiz once released from jail and nor should they. Ched Evans has served his time yes, and if he wants to reintegrate with society then there are plenty of jobs he could do, just because he earned a lot of money before doesn't mean he can't flip burgers for a living now.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Being from Sheffield there has been lots of talk as to whether he should return or not. Some Utd fans are willing to forgive as he was probably their best player and top goal scorer. But imagine the outcry if a convicted rapist complete with tag got a job at a local McDonald's. There would be an uproar. In my eyes Utd have done the right thing and its for him to try and clear his name.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Your basic argument is about free market economics.

He's good and employees want him!.

That's the bases of how capitalism works.

He can only be a role model if you let him.

If you apply enough financial pressure to those that would seek to want his services, his employment becomes negated.

I think that's what we've seen so far isn't it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You can't really compare him to a mechanic or a plumber, football players are in privileged positions and are seen as role models wether you like it or not. You could compare it to the likes of Rolf Harris or Stuart hall, I really can't see them working in showbiz once released from jail and nor should they. Ched Evans has served his time yes, and if he wants to reintegrate with society then there are plenty of jobs he could do, just because he earned a lot of money before doesn't mean he can't flip burgers for a living now.

If an employer will take him on having weighed up the balance of duty of care to his other employees

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By *obbytupperMan over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley

Rape is a vile act, for it to be filmed too is utterly contemptible. For him to return to his high profile and highly paid position would be tantamount to accepting rape as a minor infringement.

The fact he shows no remorse only adds to peoples contempt of him.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That's a ridiculous statement...he served his time so it's all ok??? Would you let a sick pervert back into a school because he served his time???

I think you really need to rethink you comment!!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"That's a ridiculous statement...he served his time so it's all ok??? Would you let a sick pervert back into a school because he served his time???

I think you really need to rethink you comment!!!!"

Also he has not served his time. He is only out on licence. He has another two and a half years left of his sentence.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"sheffield have now retracted his right to train ? he served his time regardless of if he was guilty and now he cant return to play i think its pathetic he served his time !!!!! "

I agree with you, a lot of people are just jealous of him being able to earn good money and from what I hear I don't think he was guilty.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Here's a question. If one of their groundsmen, tea lady, Kitchen Staff etc....was in a similar postion do you think they would be so forgiving? Nope. They want him because he's free and he was actually a pretty good player. Typical footie attitude.

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By *ifeRockChickWoman over a year ago

Dunfermline

If a woman can't say yes or no to sex, he shouldn't do it, that's rape, she was in no state to agree to sex, he should have out her in a taxi home, not took her to a hotel, phoned his friend and done it anyway, that's rape, he's guilty

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What I am interested in is what job do they think is 'appropriate' for those with convictions. Whilst a jury of our peers saw fit to deliver a guilty verdict, I do not feel (on what I have read)that I would have been confident to say that the burden of proof had been extinguished.

Rather that he was a footballer and paying more tax to offset the bill of his imprisonment and victim compensation. Yes, his accountants will be using all loopholes available but he will still pay more than if he is on the dole.

At the end of the day we allow those who hurt, maim, murder and rob of dignity and personal integrity through various crimes and actions to keep jobs, integrate in society, hold positions of power and influence and nobody bats an eyelid.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

in this case I don't think it is just the fact he is looking to go back into football..... but the fact that it may have been the same job at the same club....

if a teacher has been convicted of the same thing... you wouldn't expect him to go back to the same job at the same school (which you can't do legally anyway)

for all the people supporting ched please remember this:

his victim is the only person in the UK who has basically be given "witness protection" and allowed to change her on the basis of rape...

she had to leave her town, she can never go back, she has to start again

he is sleeping in his old bed, want to go back to his old job, at his old club...

he gets familiar surroundings... she had to give hers up

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Here's a question. If one of their groundsmen, tea lady, Kitchen Staff etc....was in a similar postion do you think they would be so forgiving? Nope. They want him because he's free and he was actually a pretty good player. Typical footie attitude. "

I guess some people are more important than others, I don't know maybe they could find kitchen staff etc more easily. I don't know if they would be so forgiving or not.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"in this case I don't think it is just the fact he is looking to go back into football..... but the fact that it may have been the same job at the same club....

if a teacher has been convicted of the same thing... you wouldn't expect him to go back to the same job at the same school (which you can't do legally anyway)

for all the people supporting ched please remember this:

his victim is the only person in the UK who has basically be given "witness protection" and allowed to change her on the basis of rape...

she had to leave her town, she can never go back, she has to start again

he is sleeping in his old bed, want to go back to his old job, at his old club...

he gets familiar surroundings... she had to give hers up"

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What I am interested in is what job do they think is 'appropriate' for those with convictions. Whilst a jury of our peers saw fit to deliver a guilty verdict, I do not feel (on what I have read)that I would have been confident to say that the burden of proof had been extinguished.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

He has shown no remorse and only completed half of his sentence, so how is he a rehabilitated?

For me, he's guilty. If anyone is too twatted to consent then it's rape. The absense of no is not a yes.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"sheffield have now retracted his right to train ? he served his time regardless of if he was guilty and now he cant return to play i think its pathetic he served his time !!!!!

I agree with you, a lot of people are just jealous of him being able to earn good money and from what I hear I don't think he was guilty."

At present he is guilty of rape, the public are aware he has a conviction for rape so he should be treated as such. If his conviction is overturned then he should be allowed to pick up where he left off. The law is quite clear tho, an intoxicated female cannot consent to sex, rightly or wrongly that's what the law says and until it is made clear to all then these cases will keep cropping up. Even if a d*unk girls begs you for sex you could still get charged with rape as she legally can't consent whilst d*unk. Scary when you think about it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

In the UK. We have a car known as the equality act. If someone commits a crime they have to declare it when applying for a new job IF than the person isn't given the job and it's proven that it's because of the conviction than that person could take the employer to court depending of course on if the job required a DBS/CRB to be completed.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"sheffield have now retracted his right to train ? he served his time regardless of if he was guilty and now he cant return to play i think its pathetic he served his time !!!!!

I agree with you, a lot of people are just jealous of him being able to earn good money and from what I hear I don't think he was guilty."

what you hear???? a tip for you........

read the actual case notes.... google "r vs Ched Evans"

these 12 people of the jury saw ALL of the evidence presented to them... and they found him guilty in the eyes of the law......

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"sheffield have now retracted his right to train ? he served his time regardless of if he was guilty and now he cant return to play i think its pathetic he served his time !!!!!

I agree with you, a lot of people are just jealous of him being able to earn good money and from what I hear I don't think he was guilty.

what you hear???? a tip for you........

read the actual case notes.... google "r vs Ched Evans"

these 12 people of the jury saw ALL of the evidence presented to them... and they found him guilty in the eyes of the law......"

So what, doesn't mean the jury was right does it, anyone can do jury service.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If he was a plumber trying to get another job it's no issue- just because his profession is in the public there is a need to see him suffer more than his sentence was.

Would you allow a plumber who has a conviction for rape into your house to do work while your wife or daughter was there alone ? "

The real question is do you have faith in the justice system to punish people appropriately????

I suspect not and this is why everyone has their own opinion how to punish him more.

On the lack of remorse- well again the question is why did he get allowed parol?

You have to make the punishment fit the crime- anything above is a reflection that people don't think that's happened.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I dont understand why he has been released on licence. Surely he and every other criminal should serve their full sentence in prison?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't think it matters if he is guilty or innocent, he has been convicted so until he clears his name and overturns that conviction then he should be treated as a convicted rapist. The club or public can't say "yeah we know he was found guilty but that may be wrong, let's give him the benefit of the doubt". Maybe he was a victim of circumstance and he honestly believed he was doing no wrong but still he was convicted of rape so therefore he should be treated as such until proven innocent. The Yorkshire ripper was a good lorry driver but you wouldn't want him delivering your Christmas presents would you, Ian Huntley may have been a good caretaker but you wouldn't want your daughter to be at his school, Harold shipman may have been a good doctor but ...................

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

So what, doesn't mean the jury was right does it, anyone can do jury service."

you mean.... like you!!!

remember is was a unanimous verdict... 12-0....

so all 12 got it wrong based on all the evidence they were given (more than anyone else in this thread or in the country would in effect have)... and you base your hunch on heresay.... got ya!!!

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

"sheffield have now retracted his right to train ? he served his time regardless of if he was guilty and now he cant return to play i think its pathetic he served his time !!!!!

I agree with you, a lot of people are just jealous of him being able to earn good money and from what I hear I don't think he was guilty.

No more scary than standing in front of an oncoming lorry.

If you don't want the impact you don't stand there.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

On the lack of remorse- well again the question is why did he get allowed parol?

well it use to be that was based on an admission of guilt......but not anymore....

he served half in prision and serves the other half on license..

but in the past there have been some very famous cases where people have waived rights because they were stauch in their innocence and have gone on the be proven correct....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"sheffield have now retracted his right to train ? he served his time regardless of if he was guilty and now he cant return to play i think its pathetic he served his time !!!!!

I agree with you, a lot of people are just jealous of him being able to earn good money and from what I hear I don't think he was guilty.

what you hear???? a tip for you........

read the actual case notes.... google "r vs Ched Evans"

these 12 people of the jury saw ALL of the evidence presented to them... and they found him guilty in the eyes of the law......

So what, doesn't mean the jury was right does it, anyone can do jury service."

Can I ask what makes you think he's innocent then? Just because the Judge himself said:

"The complainant was 19 years of age and was extremely intoxicated. CCTV footage shows, in my view, the extent of her intoxication when she stumbled into your friend. As the jury have found, she was in no condition to have sexual intercourse. When you arrived at the hotel, you must have realised that."

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don't think it matters if he is guilty or innocent, he has been convicted so until he clears his name and overturns that conviction then he should be treated as a convicted rapist. The club or public can't say "yeah we know he was found guilty but that may be wrong, let's give him the benefit of the doubt". Maybe he was a victim of circumstance and he honestly believed he was doing no wrong but still he was convicted of rape so therefore he should be treated as such until proven innocent. The Yorkshire ripper was a good lorry driver but you wouldn't want him delivering your Christmas presents would you, Ian Huntley may have been a good caretaker but you wouldn't want your daughter to be at his school, Harold shipman may have been a good doctor but ..................."

You'll have to share the link where the club have said 'lets give him the benefit of the doubt' .

That's an outrageous opinion of yours putting words in the mouth of the club to support your own point of view. It's statements like that that create mob mentalities because any decent person who believed you would righty be disgusted with the club if true.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what, doesn't mean the jury was right does it, anyone can do jury service.

you mean.... like you!!!

remember is was a unanimous verdict... 12-0....

so all 12 got it wrong based on all the evidence they were given (more than anyone else in this thread or in the country would in effect have)... and you base your hunch on heresay.... got ya!!!"

Yes, people like me can do jury service and people like you too!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what, doesn't mean the jury was right does it, anyone can do jury service.

you mean.... like you!!!

remember is was a unanimous verdict... 12-0....

so all 12 got it wrong based on all the evidence they were given (more than anyone else in this thread or in the country would in effect have)... and you base your hunch on heresay.... got ya!!!"

. Yes, anyone can do jury service but unless you sat in court every day and heard all the evidence then I don't really know how you can say that 12 people got it wrong and the gossip is right! It was unanimous! 12 normal, every day people agreed he was guilty after hearing every single aspect of the case. They would have had to agree he was guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" to convict him. The whole point of having a sworn in jury is they don't know each other and they are independent.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Even if a d*unk girls begs you for sex you could still get charged with rape as she legally can't consent whilst d*unk. Scary when you think about it

Don't get how it's scary to phone a taxi for her or make sure she gets home safely. Give her your number or take hers, if she still feels the same way when she's sober then enjoy, with mutual consent.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Wigan will take him no doubt, they have no morals

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By *dsindyTV/TS over a year ago

East Lancashire

Guilty...found guilty by 12 of his peers. Of rape. Found guilty by 12 people of rape. The most heinous of crimes, and he was found guilty.

Now I have said that, he should not be stopped from pursuing his chosen vocation, but any club..especially one who seeks to have a profile in the community...will have to think twice, thrice and thrice twice again before employing him due to potential sponsor backlash.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Even if a d*unk girls begs you for sex you could still get charged with rape as she legally can't consent whilst d*unk. Scary when you think about it

Why would anyone want to fuck a girl in that state?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"in this case I don't think it is just the fact he is looking to go back into football..... but the fact that it may have been the same job at the same club....

if a teacher has been convicted of the same thing... you wouldn't expect him to go back to the same job at the same school (which you can't do legally anyway)

for all the people supporting ched please remember this:

his victim is the only person in the UK who has basically be given "witness protection" and allowed to change her on the basis of rape...

she had to leave her town, she can never go back, she has to start again

he is sleeping in his old bed, want to go back to his old job, at his old club...

he gets familiar surroundings... she had to give hers up"

Yes and what about all the innocent men who have to move away after being falsly accused of rape, because mud sticks.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Maybe the offence of rape needs to be revised or categorised, such as the various degrees of murder in the US. I know there are aggravating factors that escalate an offence here but maybe there should be defined levels of rape. ie, if you leave your house with a balaclava and a kitchen knife and hide in a dark alley waiting for a victim then that is premeditated for instance

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Maybe the offence of rape needs to be revised or categorised, such as the various degrees of murder in the US. I know there are aggravating factors that escalate an offence here but maybe there should be defined levels of rape. ie, if you leave your house with a balaclava and a kitchen knife and hide in a dark alley waiting for a victim then that is premeditated for instance

No. Rape is rape. You shouldn't trivialise someone's assault.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

" Even if a d*unk girls begs you for sex you could still get charged with rape as she legally can't consent whilst d*unk. Scary when you think about it

Why would anyone want to fuck a girl in that state?"

An egotist with scant respect for other people who is dick driven, arrogant and thinks they are untouchable ?

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By *dsindyTV/TS over a year ago

East Lancashire

No. Rape is rape. You shouldn't trivialise someone's assault. "

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

HOw about if you never planned to rape someone that night but ended up raping them anyhow ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what, doesn't mean the jury was right does it, anyone can do jury service.

you mean.... like you!!!

remember is was a unanimous verdict... 12-0....

so all 12 got it wrong based on all the evidence they were given (more than anyone else in this thread or in the country would in effect have)... and you base your hunch on heresay.... got ya!!!

How do you know they were all "normal" everyday people though?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" Even if a d*unk girls begs you for sex you could still get charged with rape as she legally can't consent whilst d*unk. Scary when you think about it

Why would anyone want to fuck a girl in that state?

An egotist with scant respect for other people who is dick driven, arrogant and thinks they are untouchable ?"

It's so grim and clear cut to me after seeing the CCTV footage. Don't know how anyone can dispute it, or support someone like that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what, doesn't mean the jury was right does it, anyone can do jury service.

you mean.... like you!!!

remember is was a unanimous verdict... 12-0....

so all 12 got it wrong based on all the evidence they were given (more than anyone else in this thread or in the country would in effect have)... and you base your hunch on heresay.... got ya!!!

How do you know they were all "normal" everyday people though? "

If you've done jury duty, you'll know the checks that take place before you're chosen to ensure a fair trial.

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By *reelove1969Couple over a year ago

bristol

[Removed by poster at 23/11/14 12:55:09]

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By *reelove1969Couple over a year ago

bristol

she had to leave her town, she can never go back, she has to start again

he is sleeping in his old bed, want to go back to his old job, at his old club...

he gets familiar surroundings... she had to give hers up"

did she 'have to' or was it a choice ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

In that case doing it while someone is d*unk and can't fight back could be considered way worse?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what, doesn't mean the jury was right does it, anyone can do jury service.

you mean.... like you!!!

remember is was a unanimous verdict... 12-0....

so all 12 got it wrong based on all the evidence they were given (more than anyone else in this thread or in the country would in effect have)... and you base your hunch on heresay.... got ya!!!

How do you know they were all "normal" everyday people though? "

They would have been "normal" in the sense of having no link to the club and they try and get people who don't support the team or person. Have you done jury service?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"in this case I don't think it is just the fact he is looking to go back into football..... but the fact that it may have been the same job at the same club....

if a teacher has been convicted of the same thing... you wouldn't expect him to go back to the same job at the same school (which you can't do legally anyway)

for all the people supporting ched please remember this:

his victim is the only person in the UK who has basically be given "witness protection" and allowed to change her on the basis of rape...

she had to leave her town, she can never go back, she has to start again

he is sleeping in his old bed, want to go back to his old job, at his old club...

he gets familiar surroundings... she had to give hers up

Yes and what about all the innocent men who have to move away after being falsly accused of rape, because mud sticks."

I think any person falsely accusing rape and found out should get the same sentence length the person would have got if found guilty of rape (this does not apply to people where guilt is not proven, only where false claims were!)

It would soon ensure courts can deal with real cases and true victims can get their justice.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Real tough one isn't it. The club are arguing that he's served time and there are other criminals with worse offences who played after being released, which is clearly a fair argument. Also a female perpetrator who played in womens football was allowed to rejoin her European club, which they have chose not to mention in the court case.

But the sponsors and media have chosen to approach this morally and ethically, which is fair too.

Where he goes next is anyone's guess...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So what, doesn't mean the jury was right does it, anyone can do jury service.

you mean.... like you!!!

remember is was a unanimous verdict... 12-0....

so all 12 got it wrong based on all the evidence they were given (more than anyone else in this thread or in the country would in effect have)... and you base your hunch on heresay.... got ya!!!

How do you know they were all "normal" everyday people though?

They would have been "normal" in the sense of having no link to the club and they try and get people who don't support the team or person. Have you done jury service? "

No, I don't mean "normal" in that way.

if it was people who post on these forums they would find him guilty, and like I said a lot of people are jealous of football players and the money they earn.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

No! Just no. I know of a young woman who was raped without violence being involved I would hate to have to explain to her that the law saw the crime committed against her as less than that committed against someone else

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"Real tough one isn't it. The club are arguing that he's served time and there are other criminals with worse offences who played after being released, which is clearly a fair argument. Also a female perpetrator who played in womens football was allowed to rejoin her European club, which they have chose not to mention in the court case.

But the sponsors and media have chosen to approach this morally and ethically, which is fair too.

Where he goes next is anyone's guess..."

Yep!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Yes, he served his time - well kind of, as he is out on licence ! I think it's not the fact he went to prison I have an issue with , it's the crime he went to prison for. To me it's one of the worst types of crimes there is. I feel for the victim far more than for Ched, she can't get away from the media coverage . Must be very difficult for her and her family. Why should his life return to complete normality - did his victim's ? I doubt it.

No doubt it'll calm down and he will get to play at smaller clubs or even abroad. So he will eventually get his life back on track - any prison leaver will have a period of re/adjustment and change.

If if gets over turned on appeal , that's a different story.

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By *ee VianteWoman over a year ago

Somewhere in North Norfolk

she had to leave her town, she can never go back, she has to start again

he is sleeping in his old bed, want to go back to his old job, at his old club...

he gets familiar surroundings... she had to give hers up

did she 'have to' or was it a choice ? "

How serious do you think the threats against her are for the authorities to sign off on the cost of witness protection?

She had to if she didn't want to be attacked again.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"sheffield have now retracted his right to train ? he served his time regardless of if he was guilty and now he cant return to play i think its pathetic he served his time !!!!!

I agree with you, a lot of people are just jealous of him being able to earn good money and from what I hear I don't think he was guilty.

what you hear???? a tip for you........

read the actual case notes.... google "r vs Ched Evans"

these 12 people of the jury saw ALL of the evidence presented to them... and they found him guilty in the eyes of the law......"

Exactly he had his chance to prove his innocence when and where it mattered. Not in the court of public opinion.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

"sheffield have now retracted his right to train ? he served his time regardless of if he was guilty and now he cant return to play i think its pathetic he served his time !!!!!

I agree with you, a lot of people are just jealous of him being able to earn good money and from what I hear I don't think he was guilty.

what you hear???? a tip for you........

read the actual case notes.... google "r vs Ched Evans"

these 12 people of the jury saw ALL of the evidence presented to them... and they found him guilty in the eyes of the law......"

As far as I understand however the Judge did not offer guidance to the jury that d*unken consent is consent.

Aside from that. I am sick to death of hearing about this and I personally believe that this is another case of of mob justice trying to over-rule the law of the land.

He has been released on licence and is entitled to rehabilitation. From what has been said in Sheffield he has only been invited to train and both he and they were prepared to wait until the CCRC review before any further discussions. In my mind, I do not see a problem with this, particularly as we know from the the evidence available that he he is hardly a threat to anyone.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"sheffield have now retracted his right to train ? he served his time regardless of if he was guilty and now he cant return to play i think its pathetic he served his time !!!!!

I agree with you, a lot of people are just jealous of him being able to earn good money and from what I hear I don't think he was guilty.

what you hear???? a tip for you........

read the actual case notes.... google "r vs Ched Evans"

these 12 people of the jury saw ALL of the evidence presented to them... and they found him guilty in the eyes of the law......

As far as I understand however the Judge did not offer guidance to the jury that d*unken consent is consent.

Aside from that. I am sick to death of hearing about this and I personally believe that this is another case of of mob justice trying to over-rule the law of the land.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

No. Rape is rape. You shouldn't trivialise someone's assault. "

I havn't trivialised anything, not have I defended Ched Evans, I was just playing devils advocate, what I was getting at is that some rapists set out to commit rape whereas others are caught out by the law not knowing at the time that they were doing anything wrong

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

No. Rape is rape. You shouldn't trivialise someone's assault.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

No. Rape is rape. You shouldn't trivialise someone's assault.

I don't believe a rapist hasn't any awareness of the rape being wrong.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

No. Rape is rape. You shouldn't trivialise someone's assault.

Now I've got over my shock. What part of having sex with a woman who is unwilling or incapable would most decent, sensitive men think was ok?

What bit of it would confuse them into thinking they weren't doing anything wrong?

This attitude is what makes it so easy to commit violence against women...poor men they don't know its wrong

then they get caught out by the law

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ignorance of the law excuses no one.... No idea what it is in Latin though

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

", I do not see a problem with this, particularly as we know from the the evidence available that he he is hardly a threat to anyone.

Apart from any d*unk women that may stumble into his , or his friends, path.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

"
.

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society."

What do you mean?

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

So what's your point?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

", I do not see a problem with this, particularly as we know from the the evidence available that he he is hardly a threat to anyone.

)

Apart from any d*unk women that may stumble into his , or his friends, path. "

I think he will keep well out of their way.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?"
.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside."

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?"
.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you"

Can you explain it to me then please.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

Can you explain it to me then please. "
.

"You" was figurative

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Let me rephrase that didn't report a rape but said her drink had been spiked and that she had lost her bag and mobile phone. Toxicology reports said she hadn't been spiked.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

Can you explain it to me then please. .

"You" was figurative"

Jesus.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

Can you explain it to me then please. .

"You" was figurative

Jesus. "
.

It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

At the end of the day we can all have our opinions but there were two men involved yet only one is called a rapist simply because the law said so. Also because the girl was found to be 'lying' so he was acquitted.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!"

This should be a discussion and not the written equivalent of interpretive dance. Stand by your assertions.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Rape is rape and he has been found guilty of it whether all the people on this thread think it was or not. He has sex with someone that wasn't capable of giving her consent and that is rape!

I have certainly seen some true colours on here and there are now people I wouldbt meet as they obviously define what he did as ok.

That's the truly scary part of this all

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

No. Rape is rape. You shouldn't trivialise someone's assault.

Now I've got over my shock. What part of having sex with a woman who is unwilling or incapable would most decent, sensitive men think was ok?

What bit of it would confuse them into thinking they weren't doing anything wrong?

This attitude is what makes it so easy to commit violence against women...poor men they don't know its wrong

then they get caught out by the law"

Try reading what I have written, what part of my attitude would make it easy to commit violence against women. What I said was that if a girl consents whilst d*unk and the male isn't aware that she cannot consent because she was d*unk then he may not be aware that he is committing rape. Don't twist the comments I've made and insinuate I condone the offence or the mistreatment of women.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

Can you explain it to me then please. .

"You" was figurative

Jesus. "

Jesus x2. What a strange post, why not just explain what is meant by something you've said, no big deal.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Try reading what I have written, what part of my attitude would make it easy to commit violence against women. What I said was that if a girl consents whilst d*unk and the male isn't aware that she cannot consent because she was d*unk then he may not be aware that he is committing rape. Don't twist the comments I've made and insinuate I condone the offence or the mistreatment of women.

Your words weren't twisted, you suggested that a less violent rape should receive a lesser sentence than an aggravated rape - what I think the other poster was saying is that all rape should be punished severely and that NO ONE can mistake rape for consensual sex. For example, you've implied that a victim who wasn't stabbed during their assault has suffered far less than a victim that was.

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

Can you explain it to me then please. .

"You" was figurative

Jesus. .

It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!"

you are being vauge .... what money????

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I cannot believe so much time has been wasted on this slime bag. He is on the sex offenders register which would preclude him from working in a number of industries, professional football should be no different. Imagine your daughter was a match day mascot who had to walk out in front of 30,000 people holding hands with a convicted rapist? Why the FA doesn't make a stand and make it clear to the young men in the game that a criminal conviction will prevent them from being able to play professionally is beyond me. The game is in the gutter along with a lot of the people, players, owners, Fifa etc.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well they wouldn't have knife wounds all over them for a start, try reading all of my posts, I havnt once condoned or trivialised anything as you will see, all I did was throw an idea out there to be discussed

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!

This should be a discussion and not the written equivalent of interpretive dance. Stand by your assertions. "
.

My assertion is that in today's society money is king.

You wouldn't be discussing it if he was broke and applying for the job of a binmen/refuge collector.

He probably wouldn't have been in that position if he hadn't been so wealthy at an early age.

The club wouldn't have employed him if they didn't make loads of wonga of him.

And who gives those clubs the money in the first place that caused all the problem?.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ignorance of the law is not a defence. People who lack capacity cannot consent, simple. If he doesn't realise that then that's his problem, not hers.

If we start accepting that as mitigation how many men will rape and then say 'oops sorry officer, didn't realise' and get away with it?!

The only good that can come out of this case is that such ignorant people will now be educated, that women must explicitly consent while they have capacity (ie of sound mind) for sex to be lawful.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!

This should be a discussion and not the written equivalent of interpretive dance. Stand by your assertions. .

My assertion is that in today's society money is king.

You wouldn't be discussing it if he was broke and applying for the job of a binmen/refuge collector.

He probably wouldn't have been in that position if he hadn't been so wealthy at an early age.

The club wouldn't have employed him if they didn't make loads of wonga of him.

And who gives those clubs the money in the first place that caused all the problem?."

That sounds too conspiracy theory-ish for me to agree.

But yes, I would have still commented as my issue is with people thinking he's innocent without having looked at any evidence, and chastising the victim.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Yeah, you're not understanding the severity of rape so I can't continue this with you.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Who calls their child ched? What is it short for is it Cheddar

Who knows

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!

This should be a discussion and not the written equivalent of interpretive dance. Stand by your assertions. .

My assertion is that in today's society money is king.

You wouldn't be discussing it if he was broke and applying for the job of a binmen/refuge collector.

He probably wouldn't have been in that position if he hadn't been so wealthy at an early age.

The club wouldn't have employed him if they didn't make loads of wonga of him.

And who gives those clubs the money in the first place that caused all the problem?.

That sounds too conspiracy theory-ish for me to agree.

But yes, I would have still commented as my issue is with people thinking he's innocent without having looked at any evidence, and chastising the victim. "
.

My premise being he's not the only guilty one.

You can't create things in society without having some of the blame attached to yourself.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ignorance of the law is not a defence. People who lack capacity cannot consent, simple. If he doesn't realise that then that's his problem, not hers.

If we start accepting that as mitigation how many men will rape and then say 'oops sorry officer, didn't realise' and get away with it?!

The only good that can come out of this case is that such ignorant people will now be educated, that women must explicitly consent while they have capacity (ie of sound mind) for sex to be lawful."

I've said as much earlier on in the thread

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Yeah, you're not understanding the severity of rape so I can't continue this with you. "

Nonsense

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By *obbytupperMan over a year ago

Menston near Ilkley

No. Rape is rape. You shouldn't trivialise someone's assault.

Now I've got over my shock. What part of having sex with a woman who is unwilling or incapable would most decent, sensitive men think was ok?

What bit of it would confuse them into thinking they weren't doing anything wrong?

This attitude is what makes it so easy to commit violence against women...poor men they don't know its wrong

then they get caught out by the law

It read that way to me too.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

No. Rape is rape. You shouldn't trivialise someone's assault.

Now I've got over my shock. What part of having sex with a woman who is unwilling or incapable would most decent, sensitive men think was ok?

What bit of it would confuse them into thinking they weren't doing anything wrong?

This attitude is what makes it so easy to commit violence against women...poor men they don't know its wrong

then they get caught out by the law

No I've read and re read what you said and I can't see the bit where you said that if a girl consents while d*unk the man might not be aware that he is breaking the law. All I can see is you saying that some men might not be aware that they are committing rape.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

Can you explain it to me then please. .

"You" was figurative

Jesus. .

It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!

you are being vauge .... what money???? "
.

See you thought I was going to say she only reported it because he was wealthy.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

Can you explain it to me then please. .

"You" was figurative

Jesus. .

It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!

you are being vauge .... what money???? .

See you thought I was going to say she only reported it because he was wealthy."

If they did think that, it was your fault as you didn't explain yourself properly. I still don't fully understand your point, if I'm honest.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

Can you explain it to me then please. .

"You" was figurative

Jesus. .

It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!

you are being vauge .... what money???? .

See you thought I was going to say she only reported it because he was wealthy.

If they did think that, it was your fault as you didn't explain yourself properly. I still don't fully understand your point, if I'm honest. "
.

My point is we all hold money up as our new God.

We give these clubs this money and they give this young guy who's only talent is kicking a ball loads of money and free time and then we as a society get outraged when he behaves badly.

You can't create this situation without shouldering some of the blame yourselves

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Is someone suggesting that this girl decided to cry rape in order to get cash ? Please don't tell me that's what's actually being suggested.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Ah . . Green arrow. . Code for 'silly cunt' . . Always a good pointer !

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

Can you explain it to me then please. .

"You" was figurative

Jesus. .

It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!

you are being vauge .... what money???? .

See you thought I was going to say she only reported it because he was wealthy.

If they did think that, it was your fault as you didn't explain yourself properly. I still don't fully understand your point, if I'm honest. .

My point is we all hold money up as our new God.

We give these clubs this money and they give this young guy who's only talent is kicking a ball loads of money and free time and then we as a society get outraged when he behaves badly.

You can't create this situation without shouldering some of the blame yourselves"

Yeah I can - I am not responsible at all for that rape.

Also, my CEO is a multimillionaire and hasn't ever been convicted of rape. Same goes for my last MD. I can think of hundreds of wealthy people that aren't rapists, in fact. I don't know why you're blaming his inability to exercise restraint on wealth, when it's simply down to arrogance.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

Can you explain it to me then please. .

"You" was figurative

Jesus. .

It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!

you are being vauge .... what money???? .

See you thought I was going to say she only reported it because he was wealthy.

If they did think that, it was your fault as you didn't explain yourself properly. I still don't fully understand your point, if I'm honest. .

My point is we all hold money up as our new God.

We give these clubs this money and they give this young guy who's only talent is kicking a ball loads of money and free time and then we as a society get outraged when he behaves badly.

You can't create this situation without shouldering some of the blame yourselves

Yeah I can - I am not responsible at all for that rape.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

No. Rape is rape. You shouldn't trivialise someone's assault.

Now I've got over my shock. What part of having sex with a woman who is unwilling or incapable would most decent, sensitive men think was ok?

What bit of it would confuse them into thinking they weren't doing anything wrong?

This attitude is what makes it so easy to commit violence against women...poor men they don't know its wrong

then they get caught out by the law

I referred to it in one of my posts, I can't be bothered trawling through them all to find it, I think you have misinterpreted what I have said, not once have I supported Ched Evans or the seriousness of rape. All I was saying is that there could be a scale like assaults are scaled from a slap or a shove to attempt murder, that's all. It's not necessarily my belief or opinion it was merely an idea to provoke debate. I completely understand the severity of rape and the long term effect it has on the victim.

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By *aula.ceciliaWoman over a year ago

Cheltenham

Football is a profession where the players, club officers and the match officials should be setting an example,,, young men, sadly, lack any positive role models and will often look to sportsman, surely better thatn the local drug dealers and pimps surely?? So the role model should be beyond reproach,,, this piece of scum used his wealth, his fame and his position to commit a heinous crime,,, he is little better than Saville!

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

Yeah, you're not understanding the severity of rape so I can't continue this with you. "

Ok let me try to explain.

There are multiple ways that a person can be tried for killing, seriously injuring or simply assaulting another person. To go out armed with the premeditated intent to kill or injure another person is a far more serious offence than a death or injury that came spontaneously, or accidentally.

I don't think that anyone on this site, or even society in general would look to diminish the offence of rape but similar to above, the law should recognise the nature of the offence.

For example there is no comparison between either of the following three crimes:

1) premeditated rape with violence and torture.

2) date rape where a woman who was initially willing, then changed her mind

3) a d*unken encounter, where the woman does not actually complain of rape and where two accused testify that d*unken consent was given.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Yeah, you're not understanding the severity of rape so I can't continue this with you.

Ok let me try to explain.

I don't think that anyone on this site, or even society in general would look to diminish the offence of rape but similar to above, the law should recognise the nature of the offence.

For example there is no comparison between either of the following three crimes:

1) premeditated rape with violence and torture.

2) date rape where a woman who was initially willing, then changed her mind

3) a d*unken encounter, where the woman does not actually complain of rape and where two accused testify that d*unken consent was given."

Good speech

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Is someone suggesting that this girl decided to cry rape in order to get cash ? Please don't tell me that's what's actually being suggested. "

Yep! And move to a new place and lose her old life just for money!

Also apparently the jury found him guilty as they're jealous of the amount of money he makes!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the whole case was fucked up to be honest how one got away with it and one didn't

she never said she was raped, she didn't even report it until the evening after the night in question and had gone on a productive day working etc

Yeah but think of the money!

That's what's really important in today's society.

What do you mean?.

You figure it out.

It's like a tweet of a white van with a flag outside.

I can't figure it out. Why not just explain what you mean...?.If you can't figure it out, it will be a waste of time me explaining it too you

Can you explain it to me then please. .

"You" was figurative

Jesus. .

It will mean different things to different people.

Just think of it as a statement and see what comes to you!

you are being vauge .... what money???? .

See you thought I was going to say she only reported it because he was wealthy.

If they did think that, it was your fault as you didn't explain yourself properly. I still don't fully understand your point, if I'm honest. .

My point is we all hold money up as our new God.

We give these clubs this money and they give this young guy who's only talent is kicking a ball loads of money and free time and then we as a society get outraged when he behaves badly.

You can't create this situation without shouldering some of the blame yourselves

Yeah I can - I am not responsible at all for that rape.

Actions are a complicated consequence of events, to say that, you are saying that poor people have no greater definition to steal than wealthy people.

To say that young man's actions were determined from birth is ridiculous, and if they weren't determined from birth then they must have been determined from influences from society.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The club bowed down to pressure from the fans and the Sheffield wider community.

That's the point though - he's never shown any remorse for his actions. He doesn't believe that he raped the woman. He doesn't believe that you can be too d*unk to consent.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I referred to it in one of my posts, I can't be bothered trawling through them all to find it, I think you have misinterpreted what I have said, not once have I supported Ched Evans or the seriousness of rape. All I was saying is that there could be a scale like assaults are scaled from a slap or a shove to attempt murder, that's all. It's not necessarily my belief or opinion it was merely an idea to provoke debate. I completely understand the severity of rape and the long term effect it has on the victim."

But that's because an assault is not always a murder but a rape is always a rape.

If you're referring to the different degrees of killing/murder, then that's not comparable. Murder relates to intentional killing. Manslaughter relates to unintentional killing. How can you say that an attacker accidentally raped a victim? There's no varying degrees of rape as the bottom line remains the same with good reason.

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By *entaur_UKMan over a year ago

Cannock

Yeah, you're not understanding the severity of rape so I can't continue this with you.

Ok let me try to explain.

I don't think that anyone on this site, or even society in general would look to diminish the offence of rape but similar to above, the law should recognise the nature of the offence.

For example there is no comparison between either of the following three crimes:

1) premeditated rape with violence and torture.

2) date rape where a woman who was initially willing, then changed her mind

3) a d*unken encounter, where the woman does not actually complain of rape and where two accused testify that d*unken consent was given."

Good post.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Yeah, you're not understanding the severity of rape so I can't continue this with you.

Ok let me try to explain.

I don't think that anyone on this site, or even society in general would look to diminish the offence of rape but similar to above, the law should recognise the nature of the offence.

For example there is no comparison between either of the following three crimes:

1) premeditated rape with violence and torture.

2) date rape where a woman who was initially willing, then changed her mind

3) a d*unken encounter, where the woman does not actually complain of rape and where two accused testify that d*unken consent was given."

This suggests that some rapes are less severe than others though, and implies one victim has suffered less. Are you implying that #3 deserves a lesser sentence for their type of rape?

As far as I'm concerned; the rape should have the same sentence no matter what, and the additional crimes should have their own sentences (such as ABH or wounding).

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But that's because an assault is not always a murder but a rape is always a rape.

I agree with you, I'm not and havnt defended any rapists. May I ask you this tho, which of these two rapists would you think worse. The man who hides in a bush in a secluded area with a knife purposefully waiting to pounce on his victim having set out to rape or the man who meets a girl in a club, she goes back to his hotel of her own volition, agrees to sex, albeit whilst d*unk but then realises the next day that she didn't actually want to have sex after all and reports it. Whilst both still rape I think there is a difference in offender behaviour and the element of premeditation surely aggravates the offence. That's not to say the latter is trivialised by the way.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But that's because an assault is not always a murder but a rape is always a rape.

You're trivialising it by making me choose "which is worse?". It's not a game, these are real situations which happen regularly. Both of the rapes are equal in severity.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

Yeah, you're not understanding the severity of rape so I can't continue this with you.

Ok let me try to explain.

I don't think that anyone on this site, or even society in general would look to diminish the offence of rape but similar to above, the law should recognise the nature of the offence.

For example there is no comparison between either of the following three crimes:

1) premeditated rape with violence and torture.

2) date rape where a woman who was initially willing, then changed her mind

3) a d*unken encounter, where the woman does not actually complain of rape and where two accused testify that d*unken consent was given.

This suggests that some rapes are less severe than others though, and implies one victim has suffered less. Are you implying that #3 deserves a lesser sentence for their type of rape?

As far as I'm concerned; the rape should have the same sentence no matter what, and the additional crimes should have their own sentences (such as ABH or wounding). "

Yep!

The young woman that I know of wasn't subject to any violence of the physical kind but was still in fear for her life despite there being no visible weapon. Rape is rape, sentence a person for that and as you say physical or psychological violence can be sentenced on top of that.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

But that's because an assault is not always a murder but a rape is always a rape.

Your making grave errors by submitting assumption or similar as hard evidence.

She did NOT agree to sex THEN decide that she didn't want sex after all.

She was too d*unk to consent or resist.

A person who abuses another KNOWING they are inapable and defenceless is AS guilty if not more guilty than the man in the bush.

The man in the bush is honest about his intentions.

The 'chancer' is a devious manipulator and liar.

Both are rapists.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But that's because an assault is not always a murder but a rape is always a rape.

Your making grave errors by submitting assumption or similar as hard evidence.

She did NOT agree to sex THEN decide that she didn't want sex after all.

She was too d*unk to consent or resist.

A person who abuses another KNOWING they are inapable and defenceless is AS guilty if not more guilty than the man in the bush.

The man in the bush is honest about his intentions.

The 'chancer' is a devious manipulator and liar.

Both are rapists. "

I wasn't using the Ched Evans case, I was just giving two examples and I also said both situations are rape

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But that's because an assault is not always a murder but a rape is always a rape.

Your making grave errors by submitting assumption or similar as hard evidence.

She did NOT agree to sex THEN decide that she didn't want sex after all.

She was too d*unk to consent or resist.

A person who abuses another KNOWING they are inapable and defenceless is AS guilty if not more guilty than the man in the bush.

The man in the bush is honest about his intentions.

The 'chancer' is a devious manipulator and liar.

Both are rapists. "

I've seen it all now, "the man in the bush is honest about his intentions" what an upstanding fellow he is then, he should be commended for his honesty.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

But that's because an assault is not always a murder but a rape is always a rape.

Your making grave errors by submitting assumption or similar as hard evidence.

She did NOT agree to sex THEN decide that she didn't want sex after all.

She was too d*unk to consent or resist.

A person who abuses another KNOWING they are inapable and defenceless is AS guilty if not more guilty than the man in the bush.

The man in the bush is honest about his intentions.

The 'chancer' is a devious manipulator and liar.

Both are rapists.

I've seen it all now, "the man in the bush is honest about his intentions" what an upstanding fellow he is then, he should be commended for his honesty. "

you accused me of twisting words earlier

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But that's because an assault is not always a murder but a rape is always a rape.

Your making grave errors by submitting assumption or similar as hard evidence.

She did NOT agree to sex THEN decide that she didn't want sex after all.

She was too d*unk to consent or resist.

A person who abuses another KNOWING they are inapable and defenceless is AS guilty if not more guilty than the man in the bush.

The man in the bush is honest about his intentions.

The 'chancer' is a devious manipulator and liar.

Both are rapists.

I've seen it all now, "the man in the bush is honest about his intentions" what an upstanding fellow he is then, he should be commended for his honesty. "

You've repeatedly suggested grading rapes. I don't think you're in a position to judge (although you have misinterpreted what was said).

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You know what, I don't even like fuckin football, I'm off to another thread to talk about boobies, as long as they are offered by sober and willing females that is. Dear god

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You know what, I don't even like fuckin football, I'm off to another thread to talk about boobies, as long as they are offered by sober and willing females that is. Dear god

That's an ill judged joke.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You know what, I don't even like fuckin football, I'm off to another thread to talk about boobies, as long as they are offered by sober and willing females that is. Dear god

That's an ill judged joke. "

Bloody hell I give up, you win girls, have a nice day, please forgive me for having an opinion or creating a bit of debate by playing devils advocate

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You know what, I don't even like fuckin football, I'm off to another thread to talk about boobies, as long as they are offered by sober and willing females that is. Dear god

That's an ill judged joke.

Bloody hell I give up, you win girls, have a nice day, please forgive me for having an opinion or creating a bit of debate by playing devils advocate

One last thing before you go. Would you be prepared to line up rape victims in order of severity, and explain to each one why their rape wasn't as bad as the one in front?

Or are you only okay with saying such things when they're a faceless victim?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You know what, I don't even like fuckin football, I'm off to another thread to talk about boobies, as long as they are offered by sober and willing females that is. Dear god

That's an ill judged joke.

Bloody hell I give up, you win girls, have a nice day, please forgive me for having an opinion or creating a bit of debate by playing devils advocate

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"You know what, I don't even like fuckin football, I'm off to another thread to talk about boobies, as long as they are offered by sober and willing females that is. Dear god

That's an ill judged joke.

Bloody hell I give up, you win girls, have a nice day, please forgive me for having an opinion or creating a bit of debate by playing devils advocate

but we are debating

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

How about:

ALL rape is equally as bad. Rape is bad - full stop.

SOME rapes also have additional crimes committed *at the same time*.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't pretend to have all the answers but I do think there is a difference in the two examples I gave, and also when sentencing rapists judges do take Into account any aggravating factors such as weapons or assaults during the rape so therefore the law sees one as being worse than the other. Sorry if I have offended anyone but I didn't defend rape or rapists not did I suggest one victim was less important than the next.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

How about:

ALL rape is equally as bad. Rape is bad - full stop.

SOME rapes also have additional crimes committed *at the same time*."

In a nutshell yes.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

How about:

ALL rape is equally as bad. Rape is bad - full stop.

SOME rapes also have additional crimes committed *at the same time*."

Yeah that works or simply adding another offence of aggravated rape where weapons are used etc

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"I don't pretend to have all the answers but I do think there is a difference in the two examples I gave, and also when sentencing rapists judges do take Into account any aggravating factors such as weapons or assaults during the rape so therefore the law sees one as being worse than the other. Sorry if I have offended anyone but I didn't defend rape or rapists not did I suggest one victim was less important than the next. "

You haven't offended me I find threads like this very useful because I think they make ALL of us think. And that isn't intended as a side swipe at anyone it's a genuine comment.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"You know what, I don't even like fuckin football, I'm off to another thread to talk about boobies, as long as they are offered by sober and willing females that is. Dear god

That's an ill judged joke.

Bloody hell I give up, you win girls, have a nice day, please forgive me for having an opinion or creating a bit of debate by playing devils advocate

but we are debating

Are we, I thought you two were just ganging up on me, I'm a man, how can I possibly win against two women

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

By saying we should be grading rapes, you did suggest one victim was less affected than another.

We don't grade murder in the UK either - at the end of the day the victim is still murdered, just like a rape victim is still raped.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"sheffield have now retracted his right to train ? he served his time regardless of if he was guilty and now he cant return to play i think its pathetic he served his time !!!!! "

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Yeah that works or simply adding another offence of aggravated rape where weapons are used etc"

And it means that we don't trivialise the experience of victims who didn't get stabbed up or half murdered.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Have you noticed that all the other men have stopped posting, they are probably scared of saying the wrong thing and being jumped on for it, anyway I've got a roast dinner to cook, bye girls, have a nice day x

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"You know what, I don't even like fuckin football, I'm off to another thread to talk about boobies, as long as they are offered by sober and willing females that is. Dear god

That's an ill judged joke.

Bloody hell I give up, you win girls, have a nice day, please forgive me for having an opinion or creating a bit of debate by playing devils advocate

but we are debating

Are we, I thought you two were just ganging up on me, I'm a man, how can I possibly win against two women

By debating as an equal and realising that we aren't just disagreeing with you because you're a man?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

How about:

ALL rape is equally as bad. Rape is bad - full stop.

SOME rapes also have additional crimes committed *at the same time*.

Yeah that works or simply adding another offence of aggravated rape where weapons are used etc"

This is already the case in UK law though, as I've previously mentioned.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

Most rape is committed by someone close to the victim. How would you prove premeditation?

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"Have you noticed that all the other men have stopped posting, they are probably scared of saying the wrong thing and being jumped on for it, anyway I've got a roast dinner to cook, bye girls, have a nice day x"

You're actually kidding now aren't you?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

By saying we should be grading rapes, you did suggest one victim was less affected than another.

We don't grade murder in the UK either - at the end of the day the victim is still murdered, just like a rape victim is still raped. "

Actually we do, we call unintentional murder manslaughter tho rather than second degree murder like the yanks

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

But that's because an assault is not always a murder but a rape is always a rape.

Your making grave errors by submitting assumption or similar as hard evidence.

She did NOT agree to sex THEN decide that she didn't want sex after all.

She was too d*unk to consent or resist.

A person who abuses another KNOWING they are inapable and defenceless is AS guilty if not more guilty than the man in the bush.

The man in the bush is honest about his intentions.

The 'chancer' is a devious manipulator and liar.

Both are rapists.

I've seen it all now, "the man in the bush is honest about his intentions" what an upstanding fellow he is then, he should be commended for his honesty. "

Those are your words.

I said he is honest in his intentions.

I did not say he is honest and upstanding.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You're actually kidding now aren't you? "

Yes I'm kidding

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By *abioMan over a year ago

Newcastle and Gateshead

nope.... i just dont agree with your opinion.....

I think you wouldn't be to look a rape victim in the face and say "oh.... it could have been worse!!!"

its a traumatic experience in itself without people trying to grade it for severity!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

By saying we should be grading rapes, you did suggest one victim was less affected than another.

We don't grade murder in the UK either - at the end of the day the victim is still murdered, just like a rape victim is still raped.

Actually we do, we call unintentional murder manslaughter tho rather than second degree murder like the yanks"

No, that's not murder that's an unintentional killing. Murder is murder. Manslaughter is manslaughter.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

No girls here boy.

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

By saying we should be grading rapes, you did suggest one victim was less affected than another.

We don't grade murder in the UK either - at the end of the day the victim is still murdered, just like a rape victim is still raped.

Actually we do, we call unintentional murder manslaughter tho rather than second degree murder like the yanks"

No. It's called manslaughter.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

By saying we should be grading rapes, you did suggest one victim was less affected than another.

We don't grade murder in the UK either - at the end of the day the victim is still murdered, just like a rape victim is still raped.

Actually we do, we call unintentional murder manslaughter tho rather than second degree murder like the yanks

No, that's not murder that's an unintentional killing. Murder is murder. Manslaughter is manslaughter. "

Yes but in the US where murder Is graded as intentional and unintentional we call the latter manslaughter

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Man here. . Not scared to say anything ! Rape severity degrees would only make a very complex legal process even more hit and miss in those cases . It's already a horrendous ordeal for all concerned. Let alone adding how 'rapey' the accused was said to have been, and how raped the victim felt

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

By saying we should be grading rapes, you did suggest one victim was less affected than another.

We don't grade murder in the UK either - at the end of the day the victim is still murdered, just like a rape victim is still raped.

Actually we do, we call unintentional murder manslaughter tho rather than second degree murder like the yanks

No, that's not murder that's an unintentional killing. Murder is murder. Manslaughter is manslaughter.

Yes but in the US where murder Is graded as intentional and unintentional we call the latter manslaughter"

Why are you telling me about the US when you said "we" as in the UK? I know the difference between the two.

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By *icecouple561Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

East Sussex

"Man here. . Not scared to say anything ! Rape severity degrees would only make a very complex legal process even more hit and miss in those cases . It's already a horrendous ordeal for all concerned. Let alone adding how 'rapey' the accused was said to have been, and how raped the victim felt "

Yep and lets not forget not all rape victims are women or young girls.

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By *agging for it lou.Woman over a year ago

Loughborough

He is out on licence there 4 he has not served his time! He has no right to complain he should still be in prison

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By *ranny-CrumpetWoman over a year ago

The Town by The Cross

Yep and lets not forget not all rape victims are women or young girls.

No. They really are not.

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By *oo hotCouple over a year ago

North West

[Removed by poster at 23/11/14 15:28:37]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But that's because an assault is not always a murder but a rape is always a rape.

Omg she didn't agree to sex, that's the point!!! You are still suggesting there's an 'element' of consent in going back to the guys hotel! That her doing that somehow lessens his crime!

Anyway who's to say that the former would have a greater degree of harm done? It's too simplistic to look only at physical harm. A woman who is raped while d*unk may suffer more significant psychological damage and destruction of her life than one who is beaten? Who are you to say one is a more serious crime?

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

The "men" have stopped posting but the "girls" are ganging up?

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