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Frustrated for a friend
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Aged 18 my friend had a fight and got a criminal record for her moment of stupidness.
Nearly 6 years on this still hinders her chances of employment. An enhanced CRB and an extra police check confirms she has never been in trouble since.
She's grown up got 2 children and a married woman, i'm just so frustrated for her 
She disclosed all the information to the manager at the time of application who was giving her a chance, in the time its taken the DBS to come through he sadly since left and now the new TEMPORARY manager is saying she has concerns about her being vviolent again, yet then offered her a cleaning job within the company. |
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"Aged 18 my friend had a fight and got a criminal record for her moment of stupidness.
Nearly 6 years on this still hinders her chances of employment. An enhanced CRB and an extra police check confirms she has never been in trouble since.
She's grown up got 2 children and a married woman, i'm just so frustrated for her
Not a nice thing but will it not be spent soon
She disclosed all the information to the manager at the time of application who was giving her a chance, in the time its taken the DBS to come through he sadly since left and now the new TEMPORARY manager is saying she has concerns about her being vviolent again, yet then offered her a cleaning job within the company. "
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"if she is having problems finding employment, tell her to take it. She can always apply for more suitable positions when they realise she'd not going to axe someone"
Shes hurt that a stranger is saying she is not trust worthy and thinks that she will be violent towards someone..
being honest id be angry and find that offensive! To be then offered a cleaning job in the same building where she is not deemed safe enough to work as a HCA yet given the OK to clean i find confusing |
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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago
Somewhere in North Norfolk |
"Aged 18 my friend had a fight and got a criminal record for her moment of stupidness.
Nearly 6 years on this still hinders her chances of employment. An enhanced CRB and an extra police check confirms she has never been in trouble since.
She's grown up got 2 children and a married woman, i'm just so frustrated for her
She disclosed all the information to the manager at the time of application who was giving her a chance, in the time its taken the DBS to come through he sadly since left and now the new TEMPORARY manager is saying she has concerns about her being vviolent again, yet then offered her a cleaning job within the company. "
It sounds to me like the new temporary manager has a friend she wants to employ.
I'd tell her to speak to the CAB about some advice from a solicitor. Refusing her a job on those grounds but offering her a cleaning job sounds dodgy to me. |
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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago
Somewhere in North Norfolk |
"if she is having problems finding employment, tell her to take it. She can always apply for more suitable positions when they realise she'd not going to axe someone
Shes hurt that a stranger is saying she is not trust worthy and thinks that she will be violent towards someone..
being honest id be angry and find that offensive! To be then offered a cleaning job in the same building where she is not deemed safe enough to work as a HCA yet given the OK to clean i find confusing "
I think it's downright discriminatory. |
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Unless her job involves children or people at risk, her record shouldn't matter. Once it is served, it's exactly that and shouldn't even be on an application form.
Sadly a lot of forms still have such questions, though.
Have never had my record cause me a problem, as have always pointed out, that only an unserved sentence needs to be declared. Though I once had a B&Q manager give me hastle over my name, as he claimed "Only reason a male changes last name his to hide a criminal record" to which I replied "or like myself, due to adoption"
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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I suggested the CAB but she's just been so disheartened by this knock back.. her youngest child is almost 2 and my friend is ready to get back into work. She has cleaned at a School (DBS needed for that) and even got her NVQ2 from a stint of care home work before (meaning some one else gave her a chance also) |
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Ask to her to get a copy of the recruitment policy for the organisation concerned, it should state in there what is acceptable (or not) for the different jobs available. The policy may or may not give her some leverage to argue the point depending on what it says.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Doesn't it get wiped? I got in trouble over 5 years ago for something and mines been wiped by now. She might wanna check this out."
Wasnt aware of this but will look into it on her behalf.. Thank you |
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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago
Somewhere in North Norfolk |
"I suggested the CAB but she's just been so disheartened by this knock back.. her youngest child is almost 2 and my friend is ready to get back into work. She has cleaned at a School (DBS needed for that) and even got her NVQ2 from a stint of care home work before (meaning some one else gave her a chance also) "
I can understand that but encourage her to fight it. The manager will continue to do it to others unless shown she can't. |
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"Doesn't it get wiped? I got in trouble over 5 years ago for something and mines been wiped by now. She might wanna check this out.
Wasnt aware of this but will look into it on her behalf.. Thank you "
A conviction will become 'spent' after a certain period depending on the sentence imposed at the time - it used to be under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, but this has been updated, and I am not sure what the current legislation is. |
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There is a thing called the rehabilitation of effenders act, which after a 'certain' amount of time, makes your record clean again. The time that this takes does depend on the severity of the crime. minor offences, i think it is five years, but more serious, violent orientated offences and prison sentences take longer. there are some that are never spent. Difficult to take things klike this further as Employment Law is now stacked so much in favour of employers that you dont stand a monkeys.....they can just hide behind the 'unsuitability factor' |
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Why are they asking for an enhanced CRB check when it's just a cleaning job? Unless the job is in a school or other settings where there are vulnerable people living there or what not. It is a violent offence and unfortunately people still turn their noses up at those with convictions even though they are spent. The organisation should have a policy in place for hiring those with a conviction as well as a risk assessment in place. |
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If you are going to work with children or vulnerable adults or are working in a setting where there are children and vulnerable adults I'm afraid you will always have to disclose. Look on the NACRO website they have lots of useful information for those with convictions |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Why are they asking for an enhanced CRB check when it's just a cleaning job? Unless the job is in a school or other settings where there are vulnerable people living there or what not. It is a violent offence and unfortunately people still turn their noses up at those with convictions even though they are spent. The organisation should have a policy in place for hiring those with a conviction as well as a risk assessment in place. "
Sorry should have made it clear. She applied to be a HCA in a Nursing Home
Would require an enhanced DBS. My frustrations were shes een given the ok to clean (would also require the enhanced DBS) but not the ok to be a care assistant |
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"Why are they asking for an enhanced CRB check when it's just a cleaning job? Unless the job is in a school or other settings where there are vulnerable people living there or what not. It is a violent offence and unfortunately people still turn their noses up at those with convictions even though they are spent. The organisation should have a policy in place for hiring those with a conviction as well as a risk assessment in place.
Sorry should have made it clear. She applied to be a HCA in a Nursing Home
Would require an enhanced DBS. My frustrations were shes een given the ok to clean (would also require the enhanced DBS) but not the ok to be a care assistant "
It's the violent offence that puts people off and any conviction involving drugs it's one of those taboo convictions in the care and support industry |
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By *ee VianteWoman
over a year ago
Somewhere in North Norfolk |
"There is a thing called the rehabilitation of effenders act, which after a 'certain' amount of time, makes your record clean again. The time that this takes does depend on the severity of the crime. minor offences, i think it is five years, but more serious, violent orientated offences and prison sentences take longer. there are some that are never spent. Difficult to take things klike this further as Employment Law is now stacked so much in favour of employers that you dont stand a monkeys.....they can just hide behind the 'unsuitability factor'"
They'd struggle to explain how she'd be suitable to clean but not to be a HCA. |
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I was a DBS counter signatory.. Criminal records are down to discretion if you hire.. If someone had something on as a teenager and then nothing in 20yrs its clear it was a mistake.. If they are a repeat offender you hire at own peril and hope they have changed!
Certain crimes including GBH etc mainly violent crimes stay on a disclosure permanently!
Take a look at the DBS website it shows what stays on or not!
Did she have an enhanced adult, child or adult & child disclosure? Certain jobs if things come up and working with vulnerable people they cannot hire!
It does unfortunately sound like the new manager thinks she doesnt deserve the role and is discriminating because of her past! |
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"There is a thing called the rehabilitation of effenders act, which after a 'certain' amount of time, makes your record clean again. The time that this takes does depend on the severity of the crime. minor offences, i think it is five years, but more serious, violent orientated offences and prison sentences take longer. there are some that are never spent. Difficult to take things klike this further as Employment Law is now stacked so much in favour of employers that you dont stand a monkeys.....they can just hide behind the 'unsuitability factor'
They'd struggle to explain how she'd be suitable to clean but not to be a HCA."
Because she is not directly working with the vulnerable adults |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Doesn't it get wiped? I got in trouble over 5 years ago for something and mines been wiped by now. She might wanna check this out.
Wasnt aware of this but will look into it on her behalf.. Thank you "
It never gets wiped, its classed as "spent" after 10 years. I have a criminal record from 1993 for something very minor and although spent, it still shows on a CRB check. Ive only had one job with the NHS where i had to disclose it, explained what happened and still got offered the job. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Doesn't it get wiped? I got in trouble over 5 years ago for something and mines been wiped by now. She might wanna check this out.
Wasnt aware of this but will look into it on her behalf.. Thank you "
No problem. Hope i'm right, mines definitely gone anyway, i have to ask for my DNA to be removed from their files if i want that but figured i'd leave it in case any relatives turn up dead or something and they can check on their database. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It's the violent offence that puts people off and any conviction involving drugs it's one of those taboo convictions in the care and support industry "
I'd have concerns over someone with a violent conviction looking after a vulnerable loved one. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I imagine if it had been a more minor assault she would have been cautioned.
The assault was of such a level that she is now sadly paying the price of her actions.
I'm sorry it's affecting her but there is also a victim to the assault involved here. |
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It does unfortunately sound like the new manager thinks she doesnt deserve the role and is discriminating because of her past!.........
I don't this this could be described as discriminating....... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I was a DBS counter signatory.. Criminal records are down to discretion if you hire.. If someone had something on as a teenager and then nothing in 20yrs its clear it was a mistake.. If they are a repeat offender you hire at own peril and hope they have changed!
Certain crimes including GBH etc mainly violent crimes stay on a disclosure permanently!
Take a look at the DBS website it shows what stays on or not!
Did she have an enhanced adult, child or adult & child disclosure? Certain jobs if things come up and working with vulnerable people they cannot hire!
It does unfortunately sound like the new manager thinks she doesnt deserve the role and is discriminating because of her past! "
From my understanding it was a d*unken fight when she was 18, no jail time, just taken to the station statements given, her mum called and she was picked up (essentially a tap on the wrist)
Shes had DBS (enhanced) checks before as she used to be a cleaner at a primary school and also worked in a care home before (requiring another enhanced DBS) This is the only time its come back to bite her in the bum.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I was a DBS counter signatory.. Criminal records are down to discretion if you hire.. If someone had something on as a teenager and then nothing in 20yrs its clear it was a mistake.. If they are a repeat offender you hire at own peril and hope they have changed!
Certain crimes including GBH etc mainly violent crimes stay on a disclosure permanently!
Take a look at the DBS website it shows what stays on or not!
Did she have an enhanced adult, child or adult & child disclosure? Certain jobs if things come up and working with vulnerable people they cannot hire!
It does unfortunately sound like the new manager thinks she doesnt deserve the role and is discriminating because of her past!
From my understanding it was a d*unken fight when she was 18, no jail time, just taken to the station statements given, her mum called and she was picked up (essentially a tap on the wrist)
Shes had DBS (enhanced) checks before as she used to be a cleaner at a primary school and also worked in a care home before (requiring another enhanced DBS) This is the only time its come back to bite her in the bum.. "
You can challenge the decision to disclose if there are grounds to do so, see case of R (on the application of T).
Sounds like she was cautioned, and dependent upon circs of the offence there may be something in it to warrant a challenge by way of judicial review.
That won't help her with the current job application as the information is already there, however it may help with any new applications. |
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"I was a DBS counter signatory.. Criminal records are down to discretion if you hire.. If someone had something on as a teenager and then nothing in 20yrs its clear it was a mistake.. If they are a repeat offender you hire at own peril and hope they have changed!
Certain crimes including GBH etc mainly violent crimes stay on a disclosure permanently!
Take a look at the DBS website it shows what stays on or not!
Did she have an enhanced adult, child or adult & child disclosure? Certain jobs if things come up and working with vulnerable people they cannot hire!
It does unfortunately sound like the new manager thinks she doesnt deserve the role and is discriminating because of her past!
From my understanding it was a d*unken fight when she was 18, no jail time, just taken to the station statements given, her mum called and she was picked up (essentially a tap on the wrist)
Shes had DBS (enhanced) checks before as she used to be a cleaner at a primary school and also worked in a care home before (requiring another enhanced DBS) This is the only time its come back to bite her in the bum.. "
If it was a reprimand under the new ways they do it it shouldnt show.. Unfortunately sounds like she got more than a telling off! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Doesn't it get wiped? I got in trouble over 5 years ago for something and mines been wiped by now. She might wanna check this out.
Wasnt aware of this but will look into it on her behalf.. Thank you
A conviction will become 'spent' after a certain period depending on the sentence imposed at the time - it used to be under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, but this has been updated, and I am not sure what the current legislation is."
I was going to say the same thing, it's still under the same act but it was revised recently and is more favorable towards the person with the conviction, convictions are spent after a period of time and no longer need to be disclosed. I think it used to be 7 years but not sure what it is now |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I was a DBS counter signatory.. Criminal records are down to discretion if you hire.. If someone had something on as a teenager and then nothing in 20yrs its clear it was a mistake.. If they are a repeat offender you hire at own peril and hope they have changed!
Certain crimes including GBH etc mainly violent crimes stay on a disclosure permanently!
Take a look at the DBS website it shows what stays on or not!
Did she have an enhanced adult, child or adult & child disclosure? Certain jobs if things come up and working with vulnerable people they cannot hire!
It does unfortunately sound like the new manager thinks she doesnt deserve the role and is discriminating because of her past!
From my understanding it was a d*unken fight when she was 18, no jail time, just taken to the station statements given, her mum called and she was picked up (essentially a tap on the wrist)
Shes had DBS (enhanced) checks before as she used to be a cleaner at a primary school and also worked in a care home before (requiring another enhanced DBS) This is the only time its come back to bite her in the bum.. "
Was she charged with anything, cautioned, or did she get a penalty notice for disorder or just bedded down for the night, makes a big difference |
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"Doesn't it get wiped? I got in trouble over 5 years ago for something and mines been wiped by now. She might wanna check this out.
Wasnt aware of this but will look into it on her behalf.. Thank you
A conviction will become 'spent' after a certain period depending on the sentence imposed at the time - it used to be under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, but this has been updated, and I am not sure what the current legislation is.
I was going to say the same thing, it's still under the same act but it was revised recently and is more favorable towards the person with the conviction, convictions are spent after a period of time and no longer need to be disclosed. I think it used to be 7 years but not sure what it is now "
Minor cautions and offences are now filtered quite quickly! There is a list online of convictions which are depending what section its under.. Most are classed as a serious offence.. So if its still on there want a slap on the wrist |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"There is a thing called the rehabilitation of effenders act, which after a 'certain' amount of time, makes your record clean again. The time that this takes does depend on the severity of the crime. minor offences, i think it is five years, but more serious, violent orientated offences and prison sentences take longer. there are some that are never spent. Difficult to take things klike this further as Employment Law is now stacked so much in favour of employers that you dont stand a monkeys.....they can just hide behind the 'unsuitability factor'"
Convictions are never spent if the DBS is an enhanced one. The biggest mistake people make is in not disclosing because they assume they will be discriminated against. They can't be but the final decision to take a chance on someone will be down to the appointing manager and some are not prepared to take the risk particularly when vulnerable adults are concerned-it really is a judgement call and it can be really hard sometimes. Imagine the headlines...violent criminal works with frail elderly...
I took chances as an NHS employer on several people with very complicated offending histories and have never regretted it for a second...on the other hand have had to sack people for non disclosure when they didn't tell me and they subsequently showed a long criminal history...non disclosure is gross misconduct...
The new manager didn't have the luxury of interviewing and making a judgement on her disclosure, I can understand them being cautious, I'm sorry...as a cleaner, she would obviously have less direct unsupervised contact with the service users...perhaps they are giving her a chance to prove herself before taking a risk on her...they could actually be doing her a big favour... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The temporary manager needs to be removed.
She has placed the business she represents in a sticky position.
There are other ways of dealing with this that do not jeopardise their employer in the process.
If I was the centre manager, I would not be happy.
As for your friend, seek alternative employment rather than fighting and becoming embroiled in a battle she is unlikely to win.
As frustrating as it is, her criminal past will continue to haunt her whilst she applies for positions that require a CRB check.
I know many a business who will not entertain anyone with a criminal past, no matter how long ago it was or how minor it was.
When you have a glut of applicants for unskilled or semi skilled roles, this will continue to be the case.
Sad ? Yes
True ? Yes
Frustrating ? Yes
Wrong ? Legally, yes, Operationally, No |
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I committed what I considered a minor offence over 30 years ago, I borrowed a moped which had the keys in it I went for a ride for no more than five minutes. At the time I was charged with burglary/theft. Nowadays you would be charged with TWOC. The old CRB check didn't mention it. My local PCSO can't find any record of me on the police computer, yet a recent DBS check lists it. It's a joke I was penalised 30 years ago and still feel penalised now. I can understand for serious crimes. Think it's time to try & get it removed. |
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