FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Burka ban part 2
Burka ban part 2
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"The other thread got closed before I could respond to this:- "It seems that Westerners will never truly understand the minds of Arabic muslims (the area of Islam that the Burkah originates from). I have worked with muslims from all areas of Islam and I have asked the question of some wearers - "do you really want to wear a burkah?". The answer is always a variation of "of course I want to wear it, because that is what my father/husband wishes - I will serve my husband/father in this life and the next"." By wishyNsiren Couple (MF) 45 minutes ago Tyneside I could be wrong but I believe Islam is a religion, not a geographical location. You are right, Islam is a religion but in the context of the sentence, my meaning of the phrase "in the area of" does not refer to a geographical location. I use the Oxford English acceptable terminology for "the part of", or "the section of". In the same way Methodism is in the area of Christianity or the mathematical equivalent would be "99 is in the area of 100". I hope that clears things up for you. Further information can be gleaned from any library or internet sources."  | |||
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"well we think most women are made to wear them as i believe it its the man husband choice and its has something to do with trust and i dont trust someone wearing one lol i say if in rome do as the romans do and non of our past generations has worn them, so why should we allow it now? we all want people to feel welcomed in to our or there country and beliefs but it has nothing to do with our traditions or culture and we feel that the wearing of the burkha doesnt intregate them into society but seperates them " If British born Muslim women want to wear the burkha why would they feel the need to fit in with the views or fashion trends of others? There is no traditional dress in England or Wales.....except maybe the shell suit. | |||
"When I have worked with Muslim women I have never felt the need to randomly question them as to why they wear what they wear, they at never point questioned my choice of workwear so I never felt the need to intrude on their personal choice. I just can't get my head around why someone would feel that they needed to ask other women such personal questions?" education maybe?? perhaps if more questions were asked of the people who choose to wear them, rather than sweeping generalisations made based on one or two stories, we would be a more understanding and accepting nation | |||
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"well we think most women are made to wear them as i believe it its the man husband choice and its has something to do with trust and i dont trust someone wearing one lol i say if in rome do as the romans do and non of our past generations has worn them, so why should we allow it now? we all want people to feel welcomed in to our or there country and beliefs but it has nothing to do with our traditions or culture and we feel that the wearing of the burkha doesnt intregate them into society but seperates them If British born Muslim women want to wear the burkha why would they feel the need to fit in with the views or fashion trends of others? There is no traditional dress in England or Wales.....except maybe the shell suit." There is traditional welsh dress in wales, our children still wear it on St Davids Day, as for england I have no idea. | |||
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"isnt that how u intregate into society??? are we allowed to wear what we want to in there country of origin or there parents and as we say most are forced to wear them it has nothing to do with the islamic laws but what as islamic laws got to do with a christian western society anyway i take it u dont live in or never has lived in a muslim populated town they make u feel very intimadated and unwelcomed as most people who are pc live in middle class area,s where the only muslims are the doctors or the resturant try living in burnley oldam manchester luton then tell us they shoulfd be allowed to wear what they want this country is too pc let any1 follow whatevr religion they want but dont push it on others stick it in peoples faces and play the race card when anybody speaks up to say we dont like it " tons of different issues in here 1. when we go to 'their' country we have to abide by their laws just as they have to abide by our laws here. It just so happens that the laws of muslim countries are closely related to those of the religion. 2. how can it be called integration if we are forcing them into closed communities purely for the fact they they choose to wear a burkha 3. how are they 'pushing' their religion in our face by wearig clothing?? personally i find Jehovah's Witnesses more pushy than muslims 4. agree that people playing the race card is ridiculous but this topic is about religion, not race. | |||
"When I have worked with Muslim women I have never felt the need to randomly question them as to why they wear what they wear, they at never point questioned my choice of workwear so I never felt the need to intrude on their personal choice. I just can't get my head around why someone would feel that they needed to ask other women such personal questions?" I ask loads of people questions like that 
Actually most don't mind being asked as long as they can tell you are asking out of a genuine interest to learn... and don't mind being asked a few questions back.
One lady did tell me she only put on traditional dress when visiting her grandparents. Though she said her grandparents were well aware she didn't wear traditional clothes for work or to go out socialising. She didn't feel forced to wear it nor felt oppressed by wearing it, if anything it enriched her sense of identity. So I guess she was wearing clothing to keep her father (or father's father) happy... but only in the same way most of us own a few outfits we wouldn't wear to visit granny.
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".... i take it u dont live in or never has lived in a muslim populated town ..." I live in Leicester... if we are playing Muslim Population Top Trumps you'd better live somewhere like Bradford to play that card | |||
"well we think most women are made to wear them as i believe it its the man husband choice and its has something to do with trust and i dont trust someone wearing one lol i say if in rome do as the romans do and non of our past generations has worn them, so why should we allow it now? we all want people to feel welcomed in to our or there country and beliefs but it has nothing to do with our traditions or culture and we feel that the wearing of the burkha doesnt intregate them into society but seperates them If British born Muslim women want to wear the burkha why would they feel the need to fit in with the views or fashion trends of others? There is no traditional dress in England or Wales.....except maybe the shell suit. There is traditional welsh dress in wales, our children still wear it on St Davids Day, as for england I have no idea." Baggy Jeans for men and Washed out Ski Pants for women.... | |||
"There is no traditional dress in England or Wales.....except maybe the shell suit." Do you not have a Morris Dancer's outfit in your wardrobe? Shame on you! | |||
"There is no traditional dress in England or Wales.....except maybe the shell suit. Do you not have a Morris Dancer's outfit in your wardrobe? Shame on you!" Yes, but it's in Latex Rubber..... | |||
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"we dont force them to live anywhere they choose to come ere, and live in there communities" What part of the fact that the vast majority of Muslims in Britain are British born do you not understand? They did not come here....they were born here, why is that so hard to comprehend? | |||
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"oo gee thanks for that, but wouldn't it have been so much more clearer if you'd simply said: The exact origin of the burka is unknown, but similar forms of veiling have been worn by women in countries such as India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan since the beginning of the Muslim religion in 622 C.E. Source: http://www.fashionencyclopedia.com/fashion_costume_culture/The-Ancient-World-India/Burka.html#ixzz0tlsPzYLu "I could also just have said that the term Islam may also refer to a geopolitical region - any properly educated child should know that, but as my theology lecturer used to say - "it's childish to be pedantic about semantics". | |||
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"When I have worked with Muslim women I have never felt the need to randomly question them as to why they wear what they wear, they at never point questioned my choice of workwear so I never felt the need to intrude on their personal choice. I just can't get my head around why someone would feel that they needed to ask other women such personal questions?" So you've never had conversations with female friends about clothes??? I'm sorry you misunderstood my post, but I really didn't think I needed to explain the context of the conversations I've had with friends where the subject has come up. I've also asked them where they get their lovely scarves and make-up - some of them have some sandals to die for..................shall I go on?  | |||
"Ok if we are talking about the choice of what we wear then it should apply to everyone. Hoodies and scarves banned in shopping centres because they cover faces. Then this ban should apply to ALL who cover their faces. If its about being treated equally that is." I think hoodies etc are banned from a lot of said places, for obvious security reasons so should same be for the burkha or any other face covering garment | |||
"we lived in manchester and still hav family there and hav famil in burnley oldam so think i am qualified to talk about populated towns cities " Then it suprises me how little you know and how much you assume. | |||
"we lived in manchester and still hav family there and hav famil in burnley oldam so think i am qualified to talk about populated towns cities " The vast majority of Muslims in both Manchester and Burnley were born there, you may have lived there but you still need to explain where you expect them to 'go back to where they came from'...because most of them come from there. Or are you suggesting that they should go back to where their parents or grandparents originated from? | |||
"When I have worked with Muslim women I have never felt the need to randomly question them as to why they wear what they wear, they at never point questioned my choice of workwear so I never felt the need to intrude on their personal choice. I just can't get my head around why someone would feel that they needed to ask other women such personal questions? So you've never had conversations with female friends about clothes??? I'm sorry you misunderstood my post, but I really didn't think I needed to explain the context of the conversations I've had with friends where the subject has come up. I've also asked them where they get their lovely scarves and make-up - some of them have some sandals to die for..................shall I go on? "A bit different asking a work colleague about her blouse she got in River Island and going into whether Muslim women are forced to wear their clothing.... | |||
"When I have worked with Muslim women I have never felt the need to randomly question them as to why they wear what they wear, they at never point questioned my choice of workwear so I never felt the need to intrude on their personal choice. I just can't get my head around why someone would feel that they needed to ask other women such personal questions? So you've never had conversations with female friends about clothes??? I'm sorry you misunderstood my post, but I really didn't think I needed to explain the context of the conversations I've had with friends where the subject has come up. I've also asked them where they get their lovely scarves and make-up - some of them have some sandals to die for..................shall I go on?
A bit different asking a work colleague about her blouse she got in River Island and going into whether Muslim women are forced to wear their clothing...."Who said forced??????? You really should read things properly!! | |||
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"I just find it odd that, on one hand they say they want to integrate into general society and be accepted and treated the same etc, then on the other hand they want their own schools ( and i am fully aware catholics etc do the same, i do not believe in any single faith schools) and seem to alienate themselves from the rest of society in a number of ways. It just seems difficult to have it both ways." You just answered your own question, there have been Catholic schools in Britain for decades.....or do Catholics have more rights than Muslims, Jews? | |||
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"Without meaning to sound ridiculous I am now actually curious to try one on and see what they are like to wear for a little while." I have a latex Nuns outfit if you fancy trying that?.... | |||
"I just find it odd that, on one hand they say they want to integrate into general society and be accepted and treated the same etc, then on the other hand they want their own schools ( and i am fully aware catholics etc do the same, i do not believe in any single faith schools) and seem to alienate themselves from the rest of society in a number of ways. It just seems difficult to have it both ways. You just answered your own question, there have been Catholic schools in Britain for decades.....or do Catholics have more rights than Muslims, Jews?" I'm sorry I havent got a clue about catholics rights | |||
"Without meaning to sound ridiculous I am now actually curious to try one on and see what they are like to wear for a little while. I have a latex Nuns outfit if you fancy trying that?.... "Lol i guess it could be fun  | |||
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"I just want to make it clear that I have no problem at all with women wearing a burkah. What I want to be 100% sure of is that they are wearing it entirely voluntarily, and I am not at all convinced that's the case. It's a very dangerous place to be, as those women with black eyes who "fell on a door-knob" will know. " So is there any recorded evidence that you know of that shows Muslim women are being beaten because they refuse to wear the burkha?.....is it a worrying trend? Probably far more chance of some White Christian slob coming home from the pub out of his head and beating his partner....for reasons known only to himself | |||
"I just want to make it clear that I have no problem at all with women wearing a burkah. What I want to be 100% sure of is that they are wearing it entirely voluntarily, and I am not at all convinced that's the case. It's a very dangerous place to be, as those women with black eyes who "fell on a door-knob" will know. " I have no doubt whatsoever that there are less Muslim women FORCED to cover their face against their will than there are white women who are either: forced to swing forced to shut up forced to wear dull cover-up clothing forced to have sex forced to NOT buy shoes forced to turn a blind eye forced to cover up their black eye forced to eat their dinner off of the floor as punishment for not making it on time forced to sell their body to buy drungs forced tonot have any friends Because shit happens right on our doorstep that we do fuck all about... but make such a big deal about something someone wears just in case they might not want to wear it. I am not so foolish to assume every single woman wants to cover their face. I am sure there are a minority who don't have a choice... much the same as I am sure not all women want to wear an A-line skirt and twin-set and have her face shuved in a plate of mashed spuds. But just where do you stop with taking action on someone else's behalf, when they haven't asked you to, just in case. | |||
"I just want to make it clear that I have no problem at all with women wearing a burkah. What I want to be 100% sure of is that they are wearing it entirely voluntarily, and I am not at all convinced that's the case. It's a very dangerous place to be, as those women with black eyes who "fell on a door-knob" will know. " That is the one thing about it that bothers me, but i guess it is impossible to ever be 100% sure of who is wearing it through choice and who isnt | |||
"I just want to make it clear that I have no problem at all with women wearing a burkah. What I want to be 100% sure of is that they are wearing it entirely voluntarily, and I am not at all convinced that's the case. It's a very dangerous place to be, as those women with black eyes who "fell on a door-knob" will know. I have no doubt whatsoever that there are less Muslim women FORCED to cover their face against their will than there are white women who are either: forced to swing forced to shut up forced to wear dull cover-up clothing forced to have sex forced to NOT buy shoes forced to turn a blind eye forced to cover up their black eye forced to eat their dinner off of the floor as punishment for not making it on time forced to sell their body to buy drungs forced tonot have any friends Because shit happens right on our doorstep that we do fuck all about... but make such a big deal about something someone wears just in case they might not want to wear it. I am not so foolish to assume every single woman wants to cover their face. I am sure there are a minority who don't have a choice... much the same as I am sure not all women want to wear an A-line skirt and twin-set and have her face shuved in a plate of mashed spuds. But just where do you stop with taking action on someone else's behalf, when they haven't asked you to, just in case. "  | |||
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"is there evidence to say they dont as u know most muslims keep there troubles in house " most everyone keeps their troubles in house - thats why its such a shock when t all comes out | |||
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"is there evidence to say they dont as u know most muslims keep there troubles in house " You only have to do the maths. Look at the UK census and see how many Muslim women live in the UK and then look at the stats for domestic violence, stats from women's support groups etc. | |||
"I guess the burkha is a very visible sign of oppression whereas most other forms of domestic abuse as mentioned above go on behind closed doors so are never seen." It's only a sign of oppression if the wearer feels oppressed by wearing it. | |||
"I guess the burkha is a very visible sign of oppression whereas most other forms of domestic abuse as mentioned above go on behind closed doors so are never seen. It's only a sign of oppression if the wearer feels oppressed by wearing it. " That's right, and none of us can ever know for certain who feel sopp0ressed or who doesn't, but I personally see it as a form of oppression until I happilly learn differently | |||
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"yes they do but this topic revolves around the topic the burkha which is mainly islamic clothing " It's going round in circles, if you ask me. It seems a no brainer to me. We're contemplating a ban on the burka because it is a garment worn by muslims that prevent positive identification at security checkpoints, and our biggest security threat at the present time is from muslim extremists. What's so difficult to understand about that? Shops found that their biggest threat was from people hiding their faces by wearing a hoodie, so they banned them. Whether you are a private business or a national government you have a duty to protect your property, employees, citizens, possessions from people who would steal them, damage them, maim them or do anything else to them that is deemed unacceptable. But the one thing I find very odd about all this dialogue about Islam/Burqa/Hijab in the media is the very eerie silence from the Muslim Council of Britain. In fact, we never hear the MCB condemn attrocities committed in the name of Allah. Ever. If anyone needs to get of the bloody fence and start integrating it's the religious counciles and elders of the muslim faith. | |||
"I guess the burkha is a very visible sign of oppression whereas most other forms of domestic abuse as mentioned above go on behind closed doors so are never seen. It's only a sign of oppression if the wearer feels oppressed by wearing it. That's right, and none of us can ever know for certain who feel sopp0ressed or who doesn't, but I personally see it as a form of oppression until I happilly learn differently" I feel the same about below the knee a-line skirts and twin-sets. | |||
" But just where do you stop with taking action on someone else's behalf, when they haven't asked you to, just in case. " In cases of abuse, until the victim asks for it you can do nothing to help. I know that those women who live with violence and abuse cover it up, not to protect the perpetrator or deny it to others, but to deny it to themselves. Women of all creeds class and colour are subjected to violence and abuse and treated as 'second class citizens' you don't need a burka to hide that. | |||
"I feel the same about below the knee a-line skirts and twin-sets." s'only cos you don't like being told you can't flash ya snatch!! | |||
"who would notice if a muslim woman was being abused, you wouldnt be able to see the marks!!!! Another point is that they only have to wear their burka amoungst other men, women is ok!! no judgements just thoughts please dont shoot me!!!" Sorry but not strictly true, a Muslim woman working in the confines of a small hospital pharmacy (and there is very little roomto move about) will still cover her face even if the people she is working with are all women....which is very common. | |||
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" Sorry but not strictly true, a Muslim woman working in the confines of a small hospital pharmacy (and there is very little roomto move about) will still cover her face even if the people she is working with are all women....which is very common. " They can though show their face to women if they so choose too but WILL not to a man!! Cos they do that at airports if they want to confirm their identity, theyll show their face to females only. I must add im not hugely educated on it all just going by what little old me knows of it from media etc | |||
"I think most of them should wear a burka anyway cos they're butt ugly fuckers who have moustaches just like their mums. "well said !!!! pmsl | |||
"I just want to make it clear that I have no problem at all with women wearing a burkah. What I want to be 100% sure of is that they are wearing it entirely voluntarily, and I am not at all convinced that's the case. It's a very dangerous place to be, as those women with black eyes who "fell on a door-knob" will know. So is there any recorded evidence that you know of that shows Muslim women are being beaten because they refuse to wear the burkha?.....is it a worrying trend? Probably far more chance of some White Christian slob coming home from the pub out of his head and beating his partner....for reasons known only to himself" I think she is talking about ANY potential oppressed woman, not that Muslim women are being beaten. There ARE oppressed women in this world, whatever their religion. | |||
" But just where do you stop with taking action on someone else's behalf, when they haven't asked you to, just in case. In cases of abuse, until the victim asks for it you can do nothing to help. I know that those women who live with violence and abuse cover it up, not to protect the perpetrator or deny it to others, but to deny it to themselves. Women of all creeds class and colour are subjected to violence and abuse and treated as 'second class citizens' you don't need a burka to hide that. " The thing most seem to be overlooking here is that womens subservience is built into the very fabric of Islam and by not refusing to allow such an obvious symbol of a womans subservience as the burka, we are condoning and encouraging those beliefs. | |||
" But just where do you stop with taking action on someone else's behalf, when they haven't asked you to, just in case. In cases of abuse, until the victim asks for it you can do nothing to help. I know that those women who live with violence and abuse cover it up, not to protect the perpetrator or deny it to others, but to deny it to themselves. Women of all creeds class and colour are subjected to violence and abuse and treated as 'second class citizens' you don't need a burka to hide that. The thing most seem to be overlooking here is that womens subservience is built into the very fabric of Islam and by not refusing to allow such an obvious symbol of a womans subservience as the burka, we are condoning and encouraging those beliefs." Bit like history repeating itself here, when the crusaders went halfway across the world to change the religious beliefs of people......what is it about us Brits that makes us feel we need to save people from themselves? Maybe, just maybe, they don't want saving?....I would rather we worry about our own built in problems here in the UK, like a deepening Chav society for one.....Piss heads on our streets night after night.....worse record of teenage pregnancies anywhere in Europe? But still we Brits see ourselves as perfect and determined to right the wrongs we see in others? | |||
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"Bit like history repeating itself here, when the crusaders went halfway across the world to change the religious beliefs of people......what is it about us Brits that makes us feel we need to save people from themselves? Maybe, just maybe, they don't want saving?....I would rather we worry about our own built in problems here in the UK, like a deepening Chav society for one.....Piss heads on our streets night after night.....worse record of teenage pregnancies anywhere in Europe? But still we Brits see ourselves as perfect and determined to right the wrongs we see in others? " With all due repsect Jane, you're talking about the Crusades that happened between 11th & 16th Centuries, some 500 years ago at the latest and almost 1,000 years ago at the earliest. Countries were ruled by force in those days and power was gained through the acquisition of territories. It wasn't just the English who conducted the Crusades (the French were the main combatants), and the 1st & 2nd Crusades were initiated in response to Muslim encroachment into Christian territory. The latter day British Empire was built upon our dominant naval power and many countries in existence today owe their existence to the British Empire, the only empire to rule with a firm hand but also with fairness. Yes, we have blood on our hands, but countries like Canada, India, Australia, even America, should look to their forefathers and be glad that they were from these tiny islands. We have given the world so much to be proud of and a few things we'd rather forget, but your statement that we still think along the same lines as our feudal Kings of old really carries no weight. Maybe the time of Christian dominance in the world is in it's dying days and another religion will come to the fore. All empires rise & fall eventually. My main fear is that now there are weapons in the world that can end mankind's empire on Earth - and people fanatical enough to use them. | |||
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"well we think most women are made to wear them as i believe it its the man husband choice and its has something to do with trust and i dont trust someone wearing one lol i say if in rome do as the romans do and non of our past generations has worn them, so why should we allow it now? we all want people to feel welcomed in to our or there country and beliefs but it has nothing to do with our traditions or culture and we feel that the wearing of the burkha doesnt intregate them into society but seperates them If British born Muslim women want to wear the burkha why would they feel the need to fit in with the views or fashion trends of others? There is no traditional dress in England or Wales.....except maybe the shell suit." the shell suit?,you do not get out much at all do you?,take 5 minutes to get away from your pc and get some fresh air!. | |||
"So the Muslims who were born in this country, making them British, should seek out the elusive traditional dress of Britain and wear it? That's my point, if they were born in Britain why shouldn't they enjoy the freedoms that we all have and wear what they want? If you went out dressed in a baggy dayglo green sweatshirt do you think it would offend Muslims? And don't give me all that rubbish about Britain being a Christian society, only 8% of the Christian population of Britain attend church on any kind of a regular basis. And don't start throwing all that PC rubbish about it all being middle class, accusing people of being PC just because they are not Islamaphobic doesn't wash....it's called having a personal opinion. If you want to live your life in fear of a piece of clothing then that's your problem, I am more in fear of some d*unken slob (usually a white British Christian individual) starting on me or my family when we leave a late night bar or club." how do you come up with that assumption that a d*unk is a christian?,you say that there are not many practising christians in this country anymore so you cannot have it both ways!. oh and by the way muslims do drink and smoke!,(it might be against the religious beliefs ok,but they will pick what suits them to throw back and play race & religious cards!)i've seen them do it,it's not just for afro- carribeans,whites or chritians. | |||
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"oh and by the way muslims do drink and smoke!,(it might be against the religious beliefs ok,but they will pick what suits them to throw back and play race & religious cards!)i've seen them do it,it's not just for afro- carribeans,whites or chritians." Many years ago when cinemas ran late night porn I took a girlfriend to see one (she wanted to go lol) but what surprised me more than the film itself were the amount of Asians in the audience. We were the only white couple there. The lasting impression that was left on me was "they're just like the bloody rest of us, but pretend/prefer not to be when it suits them!" I also recall how the first big winner of the National Lottery (£19m I think he won) was a Muslim and didn't give it back, but then he shouldn't have even been playing according to the Qu'ran. If my memory serves me correctly, he divorced his wife and fucked off to Pakistan. I guess what I'm trying to say is that, yes, they do play the card card/religious intolerance card when it suits them and it's the succession of wishy-washy-too-scared-to-fucking-fart brigade that have let them get away with it. I'm all for equality but it has to be across the board regardless of race, gender or faith. | |||
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"Why are people getting so worked up about a piece of clothing, whilst the extremists that hate ALL our guts are probably walking around in Armani suits, smiling sweetly at us whilst plotting our mass destruction?!! What would be laughable - if it wasn't so scary - some of you seem to believe that if you banned the burka you'd ban fundamentalist from doing us harm!! Ok...you hold onto that thought, focus on head gear while they laugh all all the way to the C4 shop in their 501s, Nikes and England supporter t-shirts! "It's not seen as just a piece of clothing though, is it? It's representative of a culture that is completely alien to western civilisation, plus it's representative of the more sinister aspects of Islamic culture - not by the women wearing them but by the use of them by extremists plotting allsorts of mayhem (and that has happened already). By taking a stance against this one issue we'd be sending a clear message that the days of carte blanche tolerance and acceptance are over and if integration and understanding is to be reached then it has to be sought out by both sides of the divide. It is very difficult to place trust in people from a culture that either forces, requires or encourages one half of it's citizens to cover up from head to foot, often in blistering heat. Couple that with women condemned and stoned to death as adulteresses if they are raped and it isn't witnessed by four or more men, women are are actively discouraged from seeking an education and, in some Islamic countries, cannot even vote - then you begin to build up a picture of a society dominated by men, for men and woe betide anyone who tries to undermine that. That's what the burka/niqab represents to me, and even though I've said I'd support a partial ban within the constructs of the law, my true inclination is for a total ban within UK borders, but, as said before, that would contravene freedom of expression and probably unenforceable. | |||
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"Why are people getting so worked up about a piece of clothing, whilst the extremists that hate ALL our guts are probably walking around in Armani suits, smiling sweetly at us whilst plotting our mass destruction?!! What would be laughable - if it wasn't so scary - some of you seem to believe that if you banned the burka you'd ban fundamentalist from doing us harm!! Ok...you hold onto that thought, focus on head gear while they laugh all all the way to the C4 shop in their 501s, Nikes and England supporter t-shirts!
It's not seen as just a piece of clothing though, is it? It's representative of a culture that is completely alien to western civilisation, plus it's representative of the more sinister aspects of Islamic culture - not by the women wearing them but by the use of them by extremists plotting allsorts of mayhem (and that has happened already).
By taking a stance against this one issue we'd be sending a clear message that the days of carte blanche tolerance and acceptance are over and if integration and understanding is to be reached then it has to be sought out by both sides of the divide.
It is very difficult to place trust in people from a culture that either forces, requires or encourages one half of it's citizens to cover up from head to foot, often in blistering heat. Couple that with women condemned and stoned to death as adulteresses if they are raped and it isn't witnessed by four or more men, women are are actively discouraged from seeking an education and, in some Islamic countries, cannot even vote - then you begin to build up a picture of a society dominated by men, for men and woe betide anyone who tries to undermine that.
That's what the burka/niqab represents to me, and even though I've said I'd support a partial ban within the constructs of the law, my true inclination is for a total ban within UK borders, but, as said before, that would contravene freedom of expression and probably unenforceable."I take your point, I agree with you. It's the focus of some of the posters that give the impression to me they believe if the burka was banned all would be well as evil is only hidden behind them. The point I'm making is whilst all the focus is on those in burkas the danger will come from those that look and sound like the rest of us! | |||
"[Removed by poster at 16/07/10 10:12:14]" Sorry I'll try again. Firstly good post Wishy. Well and eloquent said, its nice to see that we agree on some things. Secondly, may I say that when I say I support a full ban I mean, as I am sure most people do, a ban in public. Rather like the ban on full nudity or the ban on tinted front windows in cars (which is also for security/identification reasons). | |||
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" It's not seen as just a piece of clothing though, is it? It's representative of a culture that is completely alien to western civilisation, plus it's representative of the more sinister aspects of Islamic culture - not by the women wearing them but by the use of them by extremists plotting allsorts of mayhem (and that has happened already). By taking a stance against this one issue we'd be sending a clear message that the days of carte blanche tolerance and acceptance are over and if integration and understanding is to be reached then it has to be sought out by both sides of the divide. It is very difficult to place trust in people from a culture that either forces, requires or encourages one half of it's citizens to cover up from head to foot, often in blistering heat. Couple that with women condemned and stoned to death as adulteresses if they are raped and it isn't witnessed by four or more men, women are are actively discouraged from seeking an education and, in some Islamic countries, cannot even vote - then you begin to build up a picture of a society dominated by men, for men and woe betide anyone who tries to undermine that. That's what the burka/niqab represents to me, and even though I've said I'd support a partial ban within the constructs of the law, my true inclination is for a total ban within UK borders, but, as said before, that would contravene freedom of expression and probably unenforceable." If the problem is because of what it represents in other countries, then we should be banning stuff for ever and a day. Mini-skirts and 6 inch heels in some countries represents young teenage girls SOLD from their village homes to be forced to work in the sex trade... they are the only women FORCED to wear them. Swastikas, yeah OK in some cultures they represent peace... but we all really know what they mean on certain people. Tattoos... in some cultures it represents the branding of slaves. What something represents in another country shouldn't be the arguement. It should be about what it represents to the people who wear it here. | |||
"If the problem is because of what it represents in other countries, then we should be banning stuff for ever and a day. Mini-skirts and 6 inch heels in some countries represents young teenage girls SOLD from their village homes to be forced to work in the sex trade... they are the only women FORCED to wear them. Swastikas, yeah OK in some cultures they represent peace... but we all really know what they mean on certain people. Tattoos... in some cultures it represents the branding of slaves. What something represents in another country shouldn't be the arguement. It should be about what it represents to the people who wear it here." You're talking about perception. How something is perceived is greatly influenced by the person portraying it. You mentioned the swastika which is a perfect example of something originally designed to promote peace and for 3,000 years it represented life, sun, power, strength, and good luck. The Nazis hijacked the symbol and turned it into a symbol of hate & death, which is how it is perceived across the world today. It's true origin lies in India, in the Sanskrit language and broken down it means: svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. But if you surround the symbol with a white disc on a red background and it becomes sinister, yet on it's own it doesn't instill much dread at all. You also mention tattoos; the word tattoo is said to have two major derivations- from the polynesian word ‘ta’ which means striking something, and the tahitian word ‘tatau’ which means ‘to mark something’. The history of tattoo began over 5000 years ago and is as diverse as the people who wear them. So yes it can be argued that in some places merely having a tattoo marks it's wearer as a slave but in other cultures it is a symbol of beauty. Full body canvasses are considered the ultimate expression of beauty and being at peace with oneself. Again, it's about perception. The burqa, to most non-muslims instills a sense of fear, but that is perceived fear; and it has been built into us over years of negative portrayal by, in the main, western sensationalist media but also by those who wish to manipulate us for whatever hidden agenda they are following. Muslim extremism has assisted that cause by using the burqa as a type of uniform that acts as an advertising banner for Islam wherever it it is worn and seen. Not one single person, mullah, ayatollah, preacher, or cleric has stepped forward to explain categorically and precisely just what the burqa is and why it is worn. They have allowed the fear it instills to spread into hysteria as they know full well that ANY publicity is good publicity, even if it's bad. I'm certainly beginning to perceive that I am being manipulated not only by our own media and governments, but by muslim teachers, leaders and radicals too, albeit on an extremely subverse level. | |||
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"If the problem is because of what it represents in other countries, then we should be banning stuff for ever and a day. Mini-skirts and 6 inch heels in some countries represents young teenage girls SOLD from their village homes to be forced to work in the sex trade... they are the only women FORCED to wear them. Swastikas, yeah OK in some cultures they represent peace... but we all really know what they mean on certain people. Tattoos... in some cultures it represents the branding of slaves. What something represents in another country shouldn't be the arguement. It should be about what it represents to the people who wear it here. You're talking about perception. How something is perceived is greatly influenced by the person portraying it. You mentioned the swastika which is a perfect example of something originally designed to promote peace and for 3,000 years it represented life, sun, power, strength, and good luck. The Nazis hijacked the symbol and turned it into a symbol of hate & death, which is how it is perceived across the world today. It's true origin lies in India, in the Sanskrit language and broken down it means: svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix. But if you surround the symbol with a white disc on a red background and it becomes sinister, yet on it's own it doesn't instill much dread at all. You also mention tattoos; the word tattoo is said to have two major derivations- from the polynesian word ‘ta’ which means striking something, and the tahitian word ‘tatau’ which means ‘to mark something’. The history of tattoo began over 5000 years ago and is as diverse as the people who wear them. So yes it can be argued that in some places merely having a tattoo marks it's wearer as a slave but in other cultures it is a symbol of beauty. Full body canvasses are considered the ultimate expression of beauty and being at peace with oneself. Again, it's about perception. The burqa, to most non-muslims instills a sense of fear, but that is perceived fear; and it has been built into us over years of negative portrayal by, in the main, western sensationalist media but also by those who wish to manipulate us for whatever hidden agenda they are following. Muslim extremism has assisted that cause by using the burqa as a type of uniform that acts as an advertising banner for Islam wherever it it is worn and seen. Not one single person, mullah, ayatollah, preacher, or cleric has stepped forward to explain categorically and precisely just what the burqa is and why it is worn. They have allowed the fear it instills to spread into hysteria as they know full well that ANY publicity is good publicity, even if it's bad. I'm certainly beginning to perceive that I am being manipulated not only by our own media and governments, but by muslim teachers, leaders and radicals too, albeit on an extremely subverse level." Perception is a very important word in all this, though I am not so sure about "perceived fear" when it comes to a woman covering her face. Even on here (though watch me be proved wrong now I have pointed it out) very few raised their initial objection because of "perceived fear" of the garment... may be "perceived fear" of the religion. Some spoke of it symbolising the oppression of women.... yet few of those so concerned with the oppression of women have been posting about the new laws the Catholic church introduced this week... describing the ordaining of women a violation of the law of the church in the same terms and of the same severity as a male priest sexually abusing a child. Nothing brings a nation together quite like having someone else who is different to blame and fear. | |||
"Nothing brings a nation together quite like having someone else who is different to blame and fear. " Plus it ensures our continued presence in Afghanistan and our involvement in the War on Terror. Like I said, perception and manipulation go hand in glove for people with hidden agendas. | |||
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"In addition.... if willwill is even one 10th right in his predictions.... I wouldn't want to be one of the production team for Eastenders after tonights episode "Didn't watch it. Ian's chippy get bombed then huh? Queen Vic had it's windows put through for having an obviously homosexual name? | |||
