FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Constitutional crisis
Constitutional crisis
Jump to: Newest in thread
 |
By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
I have a horrible feeling that whichever way our friends in Scotland vote the UK will never be the same. A yes vote and Scotland goes it alone, the Union is damaged beyond repair as nationalism in the other countries undoubtedly increases, leading to more calls for devolved power and a gradual disintegration of the status quo. A no vote and Scotland is granted unprecedented devolved powers which leads to increased nationalism and calls for devolved powers in the other countries. Call me a pessimist but I can't help feeling that this isn't going to end well. The horse has well and truly bolted. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
You are correct, however think of it this way, there will always be a tomorrow. Tomorrows are always different.
It is already tomorrow in Australia and they're Ok. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"
You are correct, however think of it this way, there will always be a tomorrow. Tomorrows are always different.
It is already tomorrow in Australia and they're Ok. "
You're right, we will all be ok. It is going to be an incredibly interesting period in our countries history. Guess I'm just an old luddite who doesn't like change! |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
I think you are right,but Scotland will come off worse than us if they vote yes.
If they vote know I will be annoyed at my taxes will go more to Scotland than England and Wales.
I feel it is best we cut them off completely if they vote yes,and if they say no do them no favours,we are so so soft I am ashamed  |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
Would agree that the die is cast in relation to change but also think we as a bunch of folks living pretty close to each other, with some shared values and the historical ties that bind may well benefit from it in the long term..
not sure I would want yet more levels of local/ regional politicians and administration whilst we still have the cash cow that is Europe..
trim that back and I don't see anything wrong with regions being more accountable to their citizens and having the resources to deliver for their own area.. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Would agree that the die is cast in relation to change but also think we as a bunch of folks living pretty close to each other, with some shared values and the historical ties that bind may well benefit from it in the long term..
not sure I would want yet more levels of local/ regional politicians and administration whilst we still have the cash cow that is Europe..
trim that back and I don't see anything wrong with regions being more accountable to their citizens and having the resources to deliver for their own area.."
Will be very interesting to see what the landscape looks like over the next 10 years. One can see a scenario of total dissolution of the Union with England also outside of the EU and very insular. I'm sure in the end it will all work out just fine but I think we are heading into an unprecedented period of change which always carries with it the risk of social unrest and economic downturns. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Maybe is Scotland vote no the rest of the UK can get a vote to see if they want Scotland to be a part of it. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Maybe is Scotland vote no the rest of the UK can get a vote to see if they want Scotland to be a part of it. "
This is a perfect example of what I mean, the nationalist genie is well and truly out of the bottle. What has been developed and worked for centuries is in danger of being dismantled in next to no time. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
"Maybe is Scotland vote no the rest of the UK can get a vote to see if they want Scotland to be a part of it. "
that would be wrong I think, (and only serve to prolong an already drawn out affair)however the vote goes then there should be no revisiting the question for the same term that MP's serve perhaps.. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Maybe is Scotland vote no the rest of the UK can get a vote to see if they want Scotland to be a part of it.
This is a perfect example of what I mean, the nationalist genie is well and truly out of the bottle. What has been developed and worked for centuries is in danger of being dismantled in next to no time."
After Friday Yes or No there will be massive changes all over the UK. All hopefully for the better. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Personally I think the Scots should vote yes. I know it will take time but with time it will be the right decision. For how long will the Scots be underdogs? |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Personally I think the Scots should vote yes. I know it will take time but with time it will be the right decision. For how long will the Scots be underdogs? "
Either way they are on the path to independence, the powers to be devolved will be just the start......and I don't see the Scots as underdogs at all, it is a brilliant country full of brilliant people. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I have a horrible feeling that whichever way our friends in Scotland vote the UK will never be the same. A yes vote and Scotland goes it alone, the Union is damaged beyond repair as nationalism in the other countries undoubtedly increases, leading to more calls for devolved power and a gradual disintegration of the status quo. A no vote and Scotland is granted unprecedented devolved powers which leads to increased nationalism and calls for devolved powers in the other countries. Call me a pessimist but I can't help feeling that this isn't going to end well. The horse has well and truly bolted."
I think you could be right as its going there will be a lot of resentment one way or the other from one side and I think many will be less charitable. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
Its neck an neck..,if voters choose no there is no majority to create issues! |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Whichever way the referendum turns out, it may well be the catalyst for change which our political systems need.
In my opinion, instead of complaining and/or whining the public all over the UK should be lobbying their mp's in order to secure positive change, as well as greater and more transparent democracy for all of us.
And while there are some idiots involved, it has been fantastic to see so many people who have previously been disengaged getting involved in the democratic process. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Whichever way the referendum turns out, it may well be the catalyst for change which our political systems need.
In my opinion, instead of complaining and/or whining the public all over the UK should be lobbying their mp's in order to secure positive change, as well as greater and more transparent democracy for all of us.
And while there are some idiots involved, it has been fantastic to see so many people who have previously been disengaged getting involved in the democratic process."
You are right, for the most part the engagement of the Scottish people has been superb although some nastiness is beginning to rear its ugly head. In terms of change, one has to be careful what you wish for, what would you like to see? |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
"
And while there are some idiots involved, it has been fantastic to see so many people who have previously been disengaged getting involved in the democratic process."
that is the one thing which the 'system' will possibly fear most, the apathy that many have toward the democratic process albeit recognising there are several valid reasons why is pretty poor and allows the current system to exist.. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
If Scotland votes yes - I will never get to eat another scotch egg. Or have scotch broth... |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
If Scotland vote yes we become a free self determining country and the south gets stuck with posh davie , cleggie the cardboard cut out , mad bad boris and the bold farage , infact the south will be condemmed to rule from westminster for eternity , thats a good win for us . Should Scotland vote no and we get condemned to the dire prospect of continued rule from london then there is a good chance we will be able to screw alot more cash out of the london parliment , just consider it as the south paying for the privilege of Scotland deciding to stay for a wee while longer yet  |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By *opinovMan
over a year ago
Point Nemo, Cumbria |
Which ever way the referendum goes, Westminster is going to get the damn good shake up it's been needing for more than a generation... though a yes will undoubtedly have a greater impact.
A yes vote will obviously free Scotland to make its own decisions and allow its people greater representation in the EU and at the UN. It will also mean that the system of government in the remainder of the UK will have to be "reset". Given the imparity between the influence of the south of England and the north and southwest of England, as well as Wales and NI, this can only be a good thing.
A no vote will mean a great deal of uncertainty too. The "pledge" made by the three amigos to increase powers ceded to Holyrood will need to be negotiated (aka fought for all over again) and is bound to disappoint the people of Scotland. It certainly won't match the current suggestions - because that's all they are, suggestions... there's not a single substantive proposal anywhere and nothing Westminster can be held to. This so-called devoMax option is just another con which I fear the Scots will allow themselves to be duped by - it will do nothing to change the rotten core of the current system - and their inevitable betrayal will cause serious resentment among both yes and no votes. In the long run, a no vote could be an ever greater disaster for cross-border relations than a yes vote.
Still, the public engagement with the debate and airing of the issues (in Scotland, at least) is something that hasn't been sparked in a couple of generations. The energy and passion of it is actually quite inspiring - to me anyway. I have to believe that the people's connection and resolve to bring about change won't just fizzle out on the 19th - if the rest of the UK can engage in the way the Scots have in the last few months then the kind of change we'd all like to see around the UK, but currently resign ourselves to never having a chance to bring about, really is possible. The Scots have shown us this and, whichever way it goes tomorrow, we have the Scots to thank for that... let's not lose that momentum and lets change things for the better for all of us.
Personally, I hope the Scots do indeed have the gumption to vote yes. I hope so because, living in Cumbria, I'd very much like the north of England to have the option of joining them. I kid you not - and I can tell you there are a lot of folks in Cumbria and Northumberland who would much rather become part of an independent Scotland than remain governed by a Eton schooled elite in Westminster who don't give a toss about the north.
To any Scots who might still be undecided, I'll offer a quote I was sent the other day...
____________________
"If you vote No, I ask you to consider not just what you are voting against – Scotland’s right to control our own destiny – but also what you would be voting for.
To vote No is to vote for the system that allowed Maggie to impose the poll tax and much else. The system that allowed Tony to take us to war based on lies. The system that allowed Cameron to dictate there would be no second question for a middle way on the voting paper. The system that has so often been used against us and, sooner or later, will be again.
Is that what you want?"
?-- Canon Kenyon Wright
____________________
Good luck Scotland... and when you vote YES, please bring Cumbria and Northumberland with you!  |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Which ever way the referendum goes, Westminster is going to get the damn good shake up it's been needing for more than a generation... though a yes will undoubtedly have a greater impact.
A yes vote will obviously free Scotland to make its own decisions and allow its people greater representation in the EU and at the UN. It will also mean that the system of government in the remainder of the UK will have to be "reset". Given the imparity between the influence of the south of England and the north and southwest of England, as well as Wales and NI, this can only be a good thing.
A no vote will mean a great deal of uncertainty too. The "pledge" made by the three amigos to increase powers ceded to Holyrood will need to be negotiated (aka fought for all over again) and is bound to disappoint the people of Scotland. It certainly won't match the current suggestions - because that's all they are, suggestions... there's not a single substantive proposal anywhere and nothing Westminster can be held to. This so-called devoMax option is just another con which I fear the Scots will allow themselves to be duped by - it will do nothing to change the rotten core of the current system - and their inevitable betrayal will cause serious resentment among both yes and no votes. In the long run, a no vote could be an ever greater disaster for cross-border relations than a yes vote.
Still, the public engagement with the debate and airing of the issues (in Scotland, at least) is something that hasn't been sparked in a couple of generations. The energy and passion of it is actually quite inspiring - to me anyway. I have to believe that the people's connection and resolve to bring about change won't just fizzle out on the 19th - if the rest of the UK can engage in the way the Scots have in the last few months then the kind of change we'd all like to see around the UK, but currently resign ourselves to never having a chance to bring about, really is possible. The Scots have shown us this and, whichever way it goes tomorrow, we have the Scots to thank for that... let's not lose that momentum and lets change things for the better for all of us.
Personally, I hope the Scots do indeed have the gumption to vote yes. I hope so because, living in Cumbria, I'd very much like the north of England to have the option of joining them. I kid you not - and I can tell you there are a lot of folks in Cumbria and Northumberland who would much rather become part of an independent Scotland than remain governed by a Eton schooled elite in Westminster who don't give a toss about the north.
To any Scots who might still be undecided, I'll offer a quote I was sent the other day...
____________________
"If you vote No, I ask you to consider not just what you are voting against – Scotland’s right to control our own destiny – but also what you would be voting for.
To vote No is to vote for the system that allowed Maggie to impose the poll tax and much else. The system that allowed Tony to take us to war based on lies. The system that allowed Cameron to dictate there would be no second question for a middle way on the voting paper. The system that has so often been used against us and, sooner or later, will be again.
Is that what you want?"
?-- Canon Kenyon Wright
____________________
Good luck Scotland... and when you vote YES, please bring Cumbria and Northumberland with you! "
Best post to date.  |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
"I have a horrible feeling that whichever way our friends in Scotland vote the UK will never be the same. A yes vote and Scotland goes it alone, the Union is damaged beyond repair as nationalism in the other countries undoubtedly increases, leading to more calls for devolved power and a gradual disintegration of the status quo. A no vote and Scotland is granted unprecedented devolved powers which leads to increased nationalism and calls for devolved powers in the other countries. Call me a pessimist but I can't help feeling that this isn't going to end well. The horse has well and truly bolted."
You make some very good points, but I think the result (whichever way it goes) will have consequences for the rest of Europe as well as the UK.
A yes vote, and even a close no vote will embolden many of the Nationalist movements across Europe. Most are made up of very small minorities but some have a very powerful voice. Most notably on the Spanish/French border (Catalonia and the Basque region) but also Spain itself (Andalucia and Galicia) France (Brittany) Germany (Bavaria) even in Belgium (Flanders) and not forgetting Wales and Cornwall, yes Cornwall, just in case anyone has forgotten.
The whole of the EU (and beyond) is watching what happens in Scotland tomorrow and many plans are being drawn up to push various nationalist causes. I see a very unsettled period ahead.
We could argue all day about whether Scotland can keep the pound, or whose oil money estimates are correct, but Salmond's whole plan is based on Scotland being allowed to join the EU and his assumption that he will be able to dictate terms.
I believe that Brussels will eventually allow Scotland to join, but it will be on Brussels terms (mainly Schengen and the Euro) which will be strictly adhered to. There are too many vested interests (as shown above) to allow for anything different.
BTW. Don't think the Scottish campaign and result will go un-noticed in Moscow and Kiev.
|
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I don't see why anyone in their right mind would choose dependance over having the right to make their own choices and decisions.
I'm Scottish and live in Newcastle so I don't get the vote, but I hope the majority vote yes. Massive change for the whole of the UK and benefit all, more regional powers will eventually come to every city in England too I hope. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
its unfortunatly the case that alot of folkies here in Scotland would sell their soul to auld nik himself to ensure Scotland was still run from london |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I honestly thought we were better together. I was imagining the practicalities of the Scottish/British border and saddened simply by the thought of that.
It is only two years since we went to Gretna to marry.
The separation of everything feels similar to divorce to me and I can see both sides of the border suffering.
And then Westminster started promising so much to Scotland if they stay. There is already so much resentment for the disparity between North and South.
I'm starting to think this is going to happen anyway sooner or later. As with a relationship; when you see it ending it's better to just get on with it before too much resentment builds up. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
"Whichever way the referendum turns out, it may well be the catalyst for change which our political systems need.
In my opinion, instead of complaining and/or whining the public all over the UK should be lobbying their mp's in order to secure positive change, as well as greater and more transparent democracy for all of us.
And while there are some idiots involved, it has been fantastic to see so many people who have previously been disengaged getting involved in the democratic process."
Well said. I am in total agreement. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I own a business, it used to have a side business which did well to begin with but after a while started to become a drain on the main and I had to get rid of it.
If Westminster is so desperate to keep Scotland, it can only be because without them, they will run at a loss.
I feel if Scotland votes yes, they will fare far better than we will
|
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
westminster promises are really not a very believable thing , you have a chappie down england way , cleggie , mate of posh davie , remember his promises about tuition fees south of the border ?the promises will vanish into thin air the day after Scotland fucks it up and stays with westminster rule |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
|
By *ezebelWoman
over a year ago
North of The Wall - youll need your vest |
Sorry Im closing this to keep all the Referendum posts on one thread. Thanks. |
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |
