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Marine A Programme BBC1
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Fascinating programme about Marine A (Alexander Blackman) who was convicted of murdering a taliban in afghanistan
Marine A came across a taliban who had been shot by a apache helicopter and then finished off by Marine A
just as an aside I never realised that the british solidiers in afghanistan cannot fire first even if they identify them and even if they are armed they cannot fire under the rules of engagement.
I also never realised that if a british solidier is shot and captured by the taliban in afghanistan they are tortured and their bodies mutilated.
I do not think.anyone can judge this man unless you have walked a mile in his shoes and therefore i do not think.marine A should be in prison for murder.
A mirror image case on a candian solidier who shot a taliban after he to was shot by a apache helicopter first- he was
found not guilty
A really fascinating programme with all.sides of the agrument
i hope Alexander Blackman is sucessful in his appeal. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I have recorded it. Will watch it tomorrow...I will say, however that war is brutal."
it is and its not something i would ever want to witness first hand.
I would like to know your thoughts and opinions on the programme after you have watched it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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sorry but we can judge....unfortunately people tend to think justice is only deserving to which ever side u are on...
everyone is accountable, there should be no excuses
We already think the taliban laws are stupid etc(which is true if we are talking about human rights of course), that doesnt give us the excuse to lower our values.."cos the other guy did it"
and yes it is WAR, I very much understand that..it cannot excuse some of the acts that have quite frankly embarrassed our respective western countries... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Fascinating programme about Marine A (Alexander Blackman) who was convicted of murdering a taliban in afghanistan
Marine A came across a taliban who had been shot by a apache helicopter and then finished off by Marine A
just as an aside I never realised that the british solidiers in afghanistan cannot fire first even if they identify them and even if they are armed they cannot fire under the rules of engagement.
I also never realised that if a british solidier is shot and captured by the taliban in afghanistan they are tortured and their bodies mutilated.
I do not think.anyone can judge this man unless you have walked a mile in his shoes and therefore i do not think.marine A should be in prison for murder.
A mirror image case on a candian solidier who shot a taliban after he to was shot by a apache helicopter first- he was
found not guilty
A really fascinating programme with all.sides of the agrument
i hope Alexander Blackman is sucessful in his appeal."
Life isn't clear cut neither are rules and punishment. He did take a life it was in a war situation no matter what the bigwigs thing or say but what he did wasn't right. Yep the Taliban are the pits of the earth there are hundreds living with lost limbs etc and its not right but if Blackman hadn't been dealt with sympathy would have got more money from arab states supporting the Taliban you only have to remember the financial support that the IRA got from the USA for perceived injustice. My sympathy is with Blackman, his family and I suggest you do as I do and give what you can to financially support his fight and family. Don't get me wrong he was in the wrong but the punishment wasn't appropriate. |
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I am an ex commando, I served in NI and the Falkland's. And I think I can judge, it is not the action of killing an enemy combatant that has caused those involved to be judged to have broken the law, it is their recorded attitude and the inevitable consequences to others of those recorded attitudes.
We were always told you never glory in gore and if you do anything questionable before you act you give yourself (and your unit) an out, that can be as simple as shouting 'he has a gun' before firing. The men involved in the killing of that wounded Taliban fighter broke both of those rules and did it on record, the Sargent was even recorded saying "shuffle off this mortal coil" and "I have just committed a war crime" that makes them guilty. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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I agree when those words are played and replayed in the cold light of day they do not look or sound good, however it was interesting to hear ex senior nco's who when asked the question "how would you have dealt with seriously wounded enemy without endangering yourself our the others in your patrol" they all answered the same way. The all said they would have approached the target and shot them from safe distance, these included a ex royal marine sergeant who never served in afghanistan, however like you he fought in the falklands and also i assume he also served in N.I. and went on to become a Royal Marine Chaplain.
I do not think the case is as cut and dried as it seems, the programme was well made showing and giving equal weight to both sides of the agrument.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Fascinating programme about Marine A (Alexander Blackman) who was convicted of murdering a taliban in afghanistan
Marine A came across a taliban who had been shot by a apache helicopter and then finished off by Marine A
just as an aside I never realised that the british solidiers in afghanistan cannot fire first even if they identify them and even if they are armed they cannot fire under the rules of engagement.
I also never realised that if a british solidier is shot and captured by the taliban in afghanistan they are tortured and their bodies mutilated.
I do not think.anyone can judge this man unless you have walked a mile in his shoes and therefore i do not think.marine A should be in prison for murder.
A mirror image case on a candian solidier who shot a taliban after he to was shot by a apache helicopter first- he was
found not guilty
A really fascinating programme with all.sides of the agrument
i hope Alexander Blackman is sucessful in his appeal.
Life isn't clear cut neither are rules and punishment. He did take a life it was in a war situation no matter what the bigwigs thing or say but what he did wasn't right. Yep the Taliban are the pits of the earth there are hundreds living with lost limbs etc and its not right but if Blackman hadn't been dealt with sympathy would have got more money from arab states supporting the Taliban you only have to remember the financial support that the IRA got from the USA for perceived injustice. My sympathy is with Blackman, his family and I suggest you do as I do and give what you can to financially support his fight and family. Don't get me wrong he was in the wrong but the punishment wasn't appropriate. "
is there a website or link to support them if so could you send it through to me please. |
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"I agree when those words are played and replayed in the cold light of day they do not look or sound good, however it was interesting to hear ex senior nco's who when asked the question "how would you have dealt with seriously wounded enemy without endangering yourself our the others in your patrol" they all answered the same way. The all said they would have approached the target and shot them from safe distance, these included a ex royal marine sergeant who never served in afghanistan, however like you he fought in the falklands and also i assume he also served in N.I. and went on to become a Royal Marine Chaplain.
I do not think the case is as cut and dried as it seems, the programme was well made showing and giving equal weight to both sides of the agrument.
"
You miss the point. All those men said they would have finished the b off, as would I. However none of them of them said they would then have gloated over the still warm corpse! In fact the point made very eloquently was that they would have treated the corpse with respect and seen it was properly buried. That is the difference. Its for the gloating that they have to be punished and with the full force of our laws. That gloating is the proof that it was not a legal killing in battle but an act of premeditated murder. Gung-ho cowboys of any rank roaming around executing those that cross path while being recorded can not be allowed go unchallenged. And like it or not that is what happened that day. If he had first yelled he has a grenade! And then when standing over the dead body said I was sure he had a grenade he would not have been prosecuted for murder and now be serving a life term.
I fully accept that to most it will seem strange that it is not the action that makes the crime, its the words!
In law its called mens rea, and it is the crux of everything. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I agree when those words are played and replayed in the cold light of day they do not look or sound good, however it was interesting to hear ex senior nco's who when asked the question "how would you have dealt with seriously wounded enemy without endangering yourself our the others in your patrol" they all answered the same way. The all said they would have approached the target and shot them from safe distance, these included a ex royal marine sergeant who never served in afghanistan, however like you he fought in the falklands and also i assume he also served in N.I. and went on to become a Royal Marine Chaplain.
I do not think the case is as cut and dried as it seems, the programme was well made showing and giving equal weight to both sides of the agrument.
You miss the point. All those men said they would have finished the b off, as would I. However none of them of them said they would then have gloated over the still warm corpse! In fact the point made very eloquently was that they would have treated the corpse with respect and seen it was properly buried. That is the difference. Its for the gloating that they have to be punished and with the full force of our laws. That gloating is the proof that it was not a legal killing in battle but an act of premeditated murder. Gung-ho cowboys of any rank roaming around executing those that cross path while being recorded can not be allowed go unchallenged. And like it or not that is what happened that day. If he had first yelled he has a grenade! And then when standing over the dead body said I was sure he had a grenade he would not have been prosecuted for murder and now be serving a life term.
I fully accept that to most it will seem strange that it is not the action that makes the crime, its the words!
In law its called mens rea, and it is the crux of everything."
like i said in my original post i cannot judge the man until i walk a mile in his shoes and i hope i never will, however your experiences and knowledge give your posts relevance.
As suggested in the programme last night do you think his actions which i believe were totally out of character for the individual be put down to temporary insanity (i am sure if thats the correct phrase) i am curious to understand why he did it was his mental state affected by his experiences and the restraints placed upon him during a contact with the enemy (rules of engagement) i am naive i never realised that they could not engage the taliban until they were fired upon first, i only thought that was relevant in N.I
I am trying to understand all sides of the discussion. |
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By *eerobCouple
over a year ago
solihull |
If it had been the other way round and an injured british soldier had been shot in cold blood in the same circumstances we would have demanded (rightly) that the perpetrators be brought to justice. It can not and must not be one rule for them and one rule for us. |
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I better keep mute on this apart from to say, peoples judgement has a way of changing when bullets are flying about and their lives are constantly on the line. It was never going to be a good day for the royal marines no matter what the out come of the case. Just take one minute and remember our freedom comes from those who are willing to lay down their lives for us. Want or not there is always someone who has to be willing to do it.  |
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By *eerobCouple
over a year ago
solihull |
"I better keep mute on this apart from to say, peoples judgement has a way of changing when bullets are flying about and their lives are constantly on the line. It was never going to be a good day for the royal marines no matter what the out come of the case. Just take one minute and remember our freedom comes from those who are willing to lay down their lives for us. Want or not there is always someone who has to be willing to do it. "
We do understand completely what you are saying, but ultimately are you not justifying exactly what the Taliban are doing, and indeed all war crimes. Do you feel that under fire any act can be justified by stating that the perpetrators are risking their lives therefore this makes atrocities acceptable. Do you feel that there should be any laws covering wars?
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"I better keep mute on this apart from to say, peoples judgement has a way of changing when bullets are flying about and their lives are constantly on the line. It was never going to be a good day for the royal marines no matter what the out come of the case. Just take one minute and remember our freedom comes from those who are willing to lay down their lives for us. Want or not there is always someone who has to be willing to do it. "
When lead is flying everyone is frightened but you do what is required at first because it is what you trained for and you want to put that training into practice, when that machismo wears off (and it does not take long) you do it because its your job and your not going to drop your mates in the shit!
However all the training is done so that you react without thinking, the aggression and violence is always under control, you react to orders without thought, or at least you did in my time. It takes a conscious decision to step over the line and I for one was continually cautioned about stepping over that line and the consequences of doing so. My training staff also drilled into me how not to be caught deliberately stepping over that line. I am sure that that has not changed, however we have had sanga sentries record their mates kicking the shit out of civi's, yank females squatting bare arsed on prisoners in Abu Grab and photos turning up in pronto print of prisoners held by British soldiers being tortured! Add to that MI6's involvement in the systematic kidnap and torture of British Asians and now this Sargent gloating over a deliberate unlawful killing. I have to say it seems to me that through continual cuts to the services we have got ourselves into a position where through excess active service and lack of training we are in the process of loosing our discipline.
Unfortunately loss discipline is not a valid defence to a charge of murder and as I keep saying by standing over the body and saying shuffle off this mortal coil, followed by, I have just committed a war crime proves his guilt.
Its not the killing of the Bs thats the crime, its those damming words! And when caught so openly committing war crimes the culprits must be severely punished.
As for rules of engagement, they are for any situation where military are being used to suppress an insurgency where the civilian authorities have lost control and the rule of law has broken down. |
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I'm ex HM Forces.
In my view he was stupid and did a great disservice to our armed forces.
Firstly, just because the enemy has no moral compass, does not mean that we should abandon ours.
Secondly, he recorded it and kept it as ma trophy. Now it's in the public domain, he has given the enemy tremendous propaganda collateral and further endanger the well being of any of our troops who are captured.
Thirdly, he denied us the opportunity to interrogate the hostile and gain valuable intelligence.
I have no sympathy for the dead hostile, but little or none for Marine A either |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Fascinating programme about Marine A (Alexander Blackman) who was convicted of murdering a taliban in afghanistan
Marine A came across a taliban who had been shot by a apache helicopter and then finished off by Marine A
just as an aside I never realised that the british solidiers in afghanistan cannot fire first even if they identify them and even if they are armed they cannot fire under the rules of engagement.
I also never realised that if a british solidier is shot and captured by the taliban in afghanistan they are tortured and their bodies mutilated.
I do not think.anyone can judge this man unless you have walked a mile in his shoes and therefore i do not think.marine A should be in prison for murder.
A mirror image case on a candian solidier who shot a taliban after he to was shot by a apache helicopter first- he was
found not guilty
A really fascinating programme with all.sides of the agrument
i hope Alexander Blackman is sucessful in his appeal.
Life isn't clear cut neither are rules and punishment. He did take a life it was in a war situation no matter what the bigwigs thing or say but what he did wasn't right. Yep the Taliban are the pits of the earth there are hundreds living with lost limbs etc and its not right but if Blackman hadn't been dealt with sympathy would have got more money from arab states supporting the Taliban you only have to remember the financial support that the IRA got from the USA for perceived injustice. My sympathy is with Blackman, his family and I suggest you do as I do and give what you can to financially support his fight and family. Don't get me wrong he was in the wrong but the punishment wasn't appropriate.
is there a website or link to support them if so could you send it through to me please."
A lot are going through RMCTF which has supported his family since the incident there is a text no also you can give £3 to use google as you can't put links like that on here. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"If it had been the other way round and an injured british soldier had been shot in cold blood in the same circumstances we would have demanded (rightly) that the perpetrators be brought to justice. It can not and must not be one rule for them and one rule for us. "
i am.not condoning what marine A did however I didnt realise until last night however they dont shoot our solidiers if they capture them they torture and z
mutilate them and hang their bodies from trees
sorry to be graphic however they are not fighting on a level playing field even in terms of the rules of engagement |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Fascinating programme about Marine A (Alexander Blackman) who was convicted of murdering a taliban in afghanistan
Marine A came across a taliban who had been shot by a apache helicopter and then finished off by Marine A
just as an aside I never realised that the british solidiers in afghanistan cannot fire first even if they identify them and even if they are armed they cannot fire under the rules of engagement.
I also never realised that if a british solidier is shot and captured by the taliban in afghanistan they are tortured and their bodies mutilated.
I do not think.anyone can judge this man unless you have walked a mile in his shoes and therefore i do not think.marine A should be in prison for murder.
A mirror image case on a candian solidier who shot a taliban after he to was shot by a apache helicopter first- he was
found not guilty
A really fascinating programme with all.sides of the agrument
i hope Alexander Blackman is sucessful in his appeal.
Life isn't clear cut neither are rules and punishment. He did take a life it was in a war situation no matter what the bigwigs thing or say but what he did wasn't right. Yep the Taliban are the pits of the earth there are hundreds living with lost limbs etc and its not right but if Blackman hadn't been dealt with sympathy would have got more money from arab states supporting the Taliban you only have to remember the financial support that the IRA got from the USA for perceived injustice. My sympathy is with Blackman, his family and I suggest you do as I do and give what you can to financially support his fight and family. Don't get me wrong he was in the wrong but the punishment wasn't appropriate.
is there a website or link to support them if so could you send it through to me please.
A lot are going through RMCTF which has supported his family since the incident there is a text no also you can give £3 to use google as you can't put links like that on here. "
thank you |
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"I better keep mute on this apart from to say, peoples judgement has a way of changing when bullets are flying about and their lives are constantly on the line. It was never going to be a good day for the royal marines no matter what the out come of the case. Just take one minute and remember our freedom comes from those who are willing to lay down their lives for us. Want or not there is always someone who has to be willing to do it.
We do understand completely what you are saying, but ultimately are you not justifying exactly what the Taliban are doing, and indeed all war crimes. Do you feel that under fire any act can be justified by stating that the perpetrators are risking their lives therefore this makes atrocities acceptable. Do you feel that there should be any laws covering wars?
"
No I am not saying that I served my country with divinity and respect. It is easy to judge people but not always as easy to stand in there shoes. We expect and demand a code of conduct from our serving forces that the Taliban does not. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I thought 10 years for unlawfully executing someone was quite lenient.
I also thought the supposed reason for going into places like Afghanistan was to stop the Taliban acting in the way they do, not to act the way they do. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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This country is a joke 10 years for a guy fighting for his country , meanwhile giving official pardon letters to Ira terrorists who killed untold numbers of people |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I thought 10 years for unlawfully executing someone was quite lenient.
I also thought the supposed reason for going into places like Afghanistan was to stop the Taliban acting in the way they do, not to act the way they do."
in many ways you are correct (hearts & minds) however you can compare what Marine A actions to the taliban who torture, mutilate and hang the bodies of our dead solidiers from trees as trophies there is no comparision.
I am not condoning what marine A did and i.am not advocating copycat actions |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I thought 10 years for unlawfully executing someone was quite lenient.
I also thought the supposed reason for going into places like Afghanistan was to stop the Taliban acting in the way they do, not to act the way they do."
. And you would know what it's like to be a soldier in afghan would you???. I don't think you have any idea of the stress they have, my ex hubby regularly had dreams etc about what he saw in Bosnia. To the point he lashed out in his sleep. Imagine 4 of your closest friends being killed how would u react??. I've seen videos taken by a couple of marines I know with children being sent with guns to shoot at British soldiers. How would you deal with that???. It's a hostle environment no one can say how they will react. The insurgent was clearly hurt quite badly playing devils advocate maybe he did the right thing shooting him, after all marine a has seen first hand serious injuries suffered by his colleagues. Also by calling a helicopter to rescue the Taliban it would have drawn more attention. Unlitmate prize is shooting down a helicopter mass death. So maybe just maybe marine a also saved others lives. |
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By *eerobCouple
over a year ago
solihull |
I realise the Taliban are horrible and i have no truck with them atall, but again playing devils advocate we are not at war with them or their country. We have taken it upon ourselves to go into their country and impose ourselves on them.
We are rightly angry and upset when terrorists strike in our country. Imagine if another country simply put troops in ourcountry and started shooting and killing our men folk etc.
It is appalling that we now have to call for rape to be stopped by soldiers, that is no part of fighting and we are not naive enought to think that no british souldier has raped during conflicts. Because the opposition does certain deplorable acts it can never justify our troops overstepping the mark, and marine overstepped the mark, got caught and is being punished, a just result.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I realise the Taliban are horrible and i have no truck with them atall, but again playing devils advocate we are not at war with them or their country. We have taken it upon ourselves to go into their country and impose ourselves on them.
We are rightly angry and upset when terrorists strike in our country. Imagine if another country simply put troops in ourcountry and started shooting and killing our men folk etc.
It is appalling that we now have to call for rape to be stopped by soldiers, that is no part of fighting and we are not naive enought to think that no british souldier has raped during conflicts. Because the opposition does certain deplorable acts it can never justify our troops overstepping the mark, and marine overstepped the mark, got caught and is being punished, a just result.
"
i am sorry however the agruments and reasons for going into afghanistan are nothing to do with this thread.
i find the insinuation that british solidiers may be involved in raping civilians as abhorrent
do you have any evidence to qualify that statement ?
Did you watch the programme in question ?
For the record are you condoning the talibans proven torture, mutilation and hanging the bodies of british solidiers from.trees with their testicles in their mouths as acceptable because they were sent there to serve, they did not ask to serve there.
Finally the original reason for going into afghanistan was the unprovoked attack on the world trade centre and at the time osama bin laden was using afghanistan as his training base
whether you backed the decision to go to war in the first instance is neither here or there however now we are there i would hope that any service personnel who are currently serving or who have served get the countries full support.
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By *eerobCouple
over a year ago
solihull |
We are not at war with afganistan. I am talking historically and in general about solsiers of all nations rapeing as they go about their warfare. You are naive if you think that no british soldier has never raped women whilst in other countries. What the taliban do with their prisoners is abhorren. But them being badly behaved does not then allow for british soldiers or american to behave in an unprofessional and illegal manner. Courts found marine a guilty for a reason. He was guilty and i hope that if any other soldier of any nation behaves in that manner that they be brought to justice. All he has done is help the taliban justify their own appaling behaviour. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"We are not at war with afganistan. I am talking historically and in general about solsiers of all nations rapeing as they go about their warfare. You are naive if you think that no british soldier has never raped women whilst in other countries. What the taliban do with their prisoners is abhorren. But them being badly behaved does not then allow for british soldiers or american to behave in an unprofessional and illegal manner. Courts found marine a guilty for a reason. He was guilty and i hope that if any other soldier of any nation behaves in that manner that they be brought to justice. All he has done is help the taliban justify their own appaling behaviour. "
i am not naive however i am just wondering how something as provactive as rape came into this thread as it was originally about Alexander Blackman who is appealling his ten year sentence for unlawful killing and nothing to do with rape.
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By *eerobCouple
over a year ago
solihull |
Soldiers misbehave. If they do they deserve to be punished the same as the rest of us. There is no need to execute prisoners, no need to tortur then. I was making the point that just bwcause a soldier is in a horrible situation it does not permit them to overstep the mark. I made the point that because a soldier is in a traumatic situation it does not justify them to rape, it does not justify them to kill unnecessarily. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Soldiers misbehave. If they do they deserve to be punished the same as the rest of us. There is no need to execute prisoners, no need to tortur then. I was making the point that just bwcause a soldier is in a horrible situation it does not permit them to overstep the mark. I made the point that because a soldier is in a traumatic situation it does not justify them to rape, it does not justify them to kill unnecessarily. "
like i said in a earlier post i cannot jugde this man or any other soidier until.i have walked a mile in their shoes and i.hope i never have to. |
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Ive got no time for dumb ass people who go off killing mostly innocent people on foreign soil under some bull shit excuse that they are somehow keeping me safe and are heroes.
where are all the hang em high brigade that you usually get on threads were someone broke the law ?
choking on their hypocrisy i imagine, hopefully near no one who can perform the heimlich maneuver |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Ive got no time for dumb ass people who go off killing mostly innocent people on foreign soil under some bull shit excuse that they are somehow keeping me safe and are heroes.
where are all the hang em high brigade that you usually get on threads were someone broke the law ?
choking on their hypocrisy i imagine, hopefully near no one who can perform the heimlich maneuver"
i feel.sorry for bitterness |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Soldiers misbehave. If they do they deserve to be punished the same as the rest of us. There is no need to execute prisoners, no need to tortur then. I was making the point that just bwcause a soldier is in a horrible situation it does not permit them to overstep the mark. I made the point that because a soldier is in a traumatic situation it does not justify them to rape, it does not justify them to kill unnecessarily.
like i said in a earlier post i cannot jugde this man or any other soidier until.i have walked a mile in their shoes and i.hope i never have to."
that statement never really adds up..I've never walked in a convicted serial killers shoes
I certainly can judge him/her...we judge right and wrong based on a collective decision, that all in all is aimed at the greater good
U appear to be skirting around the issue ,
the guilty man says quite clearly he has breached the code of conduct expected of him
for the sentence itself?- I wont comment on that, but it is good to know, that even in a different country, nobody is above the law...of THIS country.
and as mentioned, bringing up the taliban's actions...should only be answered by ur earlier comment of walking in someone elses shoes...
*bearing in mind, these taliban rebels/fighters etc, are following orders and ensuring their families are looked after in the future.......They are pawns in political/financial games quite alike many other countries forces...
If u had managed to walk in their shoes..and blend into their culture as some sort of spy, u would probably be listening/watching propaganda that the west wants to destroy every one of them with bombs(to them this probably appears more barbaric/cowardly than chopping someones head off).
I'm really only watching from the sidelines to be honest..I still cannot see any military strategical necessity in this particular conflict. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Soldiers misbehave. If they do they deserve to be punished the same as the rest of us. There is no need to execute prisoners, no need to tortur then. I was making the point that just bwcause a soldier is in a horrible situation it does not permit them to overstep the mark. I made the point that because a soldier is in a traumatic situation it does not justify them to rape, it does not justify them to kill unnecessarily.
like i said in a earlier post i cannot jugde this man or any other soidier until.i have walked a mile in their shoes and i.hope i never have to.
that statement never really adds up..I've never walked in a convicted serial killers shoes
I certainly can judge him/her...we judge right and wrong based on a collective decision, that all in all is aimed at the greater good
U appear to be skirting around the issue ,
the guilty man says quite clearly he has breached the code of conduct expected of him
for the sentence itself?- I wont comment on that, but it is good to know, that even in a different country, nobody is above the law...of THIS country.
and as mentioned, bringing up the taliban's actions...should only be answered by ur earlier comment of walking in someone elses shoes...
*bearing in mind, these taliban rebels/fighters etc, are following orders and ensuring their families are looked after in the future.......They are pawns in political/financial games quite alike many other countries forces...
If u had managed to walk in their shoes..and blend into their culture as some sort of spy, u would probably be listening/watching propaganda that the west wants to destroy every one of them with bombs(to them this probably appears more barbaric/cowardly than chopping someones head off).
I'm really only watching from the sidelines to be honest..I still cannot see any military strategical necessity in this particular conflict. "
the rights and wrongs of the conflicts are for another thread
as for being able to.judge him i personally cannot.
although i am intrigued with the analogy of a serial killer as i cannot see how the two points are connected unless your equating the actions of marine A to the actions of a serial killer surely your not are you.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Soldiers misbehave. If they do they deserve to be punished the same as the rest of us. There is no need to execute prisoners, no need to tortur then. I was making the point that just bwcause a soldier is in a horrible situation it does not permit them to overstep the mark. I made the point that because a soldier is in a traumatic situation it does not justify them to rape, it does not justify them to kill unnecessarily.
like i said in a earlier post i cannot jugde this man or any other soidier until.i have walked a mile in their shoes and i.hope i never have to.
that statement never really adds up..I've never walked in a convicted serial killers shoes
I certainly can judge him/her...we judge right and wrong based on a collective decision, that all in all is aimed at the greater good
U appear to be skirting around the issue ,
the guilty man says quite clearly he has breached the code of conduct expected of him
for the sentence itself?- I wont comment on that, but it is good to know, that even in a different country, nobody is above the law...of THIS country.
and as mentioned, bringing up the taliban's actions...should only be answered by ur earlier comment of walking in someone elses shoes...
*bearing in mind, these taliban rebels/fighters etc, are following orders and ensuring their families are looked after in the future.......They are pawns in political/financial games quite alike many other countries forces...
If u had managed to walk in their shoes..and blend into their culture as some sort of spy, u would probably be listening/watching propaganda that the west wants to destroy every one of them with bombs(to them this probably appears more barbaric/cowardly than chopping someones head off).
I'm really only watching from the sidelines to be honest..I still cannot see any military strategical necessity in this particular conflict.
the rights and wrongs of the conflicts are for another thread
as for being able to.judge him i personally cannot.
although i am intrigued with the analogy of a serial killer as i cannot see how the two points are connected unless your equating the actions of marine A to the actions of a serial killer surely your not are you.
"
u said u cannot judge any MAN or SOLDIER...surely u judge those convicted of offenses..despite not walking in their shoes...
the rights and wrongs tie into this thread...
as some believe we should accept dishing out the barbarism that may be received...some people think that some guy in another country cannot be as loyal to his cause than someone from this country..
I mean..ffs...some of these guys(the other side) actually willingly destroy themselves for the 'cause' .Their children, are now probably in the teen years since our hunt for osama...what do U think these formulative years have taught these people what the west really thinks of them?..........
its time to take our troops out of this battle, and gear up for WW3..if that ever happens..its highly unlikely in my opinion gonna start in bloody afghanistan! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Soldiers misbehave. If they do they deserve to be punished the same as the rest of us. There is no need to execute prisoners, no need to tortur then. I was making the point that just bwcause a soldier is in a horrible situation it does not permit them to overstep the mark. I made the point that because a soldier is in a traumatic situation it does not justify them to rape, it does not justify them to kill unnecessarily.
like i said in a earlier post i cannot jugde this man or any other soidier until.i have walked a mile in their shoes and i.hope i never have to.
that statement never really adds up..I've never walked in a convicted serial killers shoes
I certainly can judge him/her...we judge right and wrong based on a collective decision, that all in all is aimed at the greater good
U appear to be skirting around the issue ,
the guilty man says quite clearly he has breached the code of conduct expected of him
for the sentence itself?- I wont comment on that, but it is good to know, that even in a different country, nobody is above the law...of THIS country.
and as mentioned, bringing up the taliban's actions...should only be answered by ur earlier comment of walking in someone elses shoes...
*bearing in mind, these taliban rebels/fighters etc, are following orders and ensuring their families are looked after in the future.......They are pawns in political/financial games quite alike many other countries forces...
If u had managed to walk in their shoes..and blend into their culture as some sort of spy, u would probably be listening/watching propaganda that the west wants to destroy every one of them with bombs(to them this probably appears more barbaric/cowardly than chopping someones head off).
I'm really only watching from the sidelines to be honest..I still cannot see any military strategical necessity in this particular conflict.
the rights and wrongs of the conflicts are for another thread
as for being able to.judge him i personally cannot.
although i am intrigued with the analogy of a serial killer as i cannot see how the two points are connected unless your equating the actions of marine A to the actions of a serial killer surely your not are you.
u said u cannot judge any MAN or SOLDIER...surely u judge those convicted of offenses..despite not walking in their shoes...
the rights and wrongs tie into this thread...
as some believe we should accept dishing out the barbarism that may be received...some people think that some guy in another country cannot be as loyal to his cause than someone from this country..
I mean..ffs...some of these guys(the other side) actually willingly destroy themselves for the 'cause' .Their children, are now probably in the teen years since our hunt for osama...what do U think these formulative years have taught these people what the west really thinks of them?..........
its time to take our troops out of this battle, and gear up for WW3..if that ever happens..its highly unlikely in my opinion gonna start in bloody afghanistan! "
the rights and wrongs of the conflict were not in.the original post on this thread however it seems others are determined to bring them into it however i am not interested in that side of it.
I said i couldnt judge marine A because i hadnt walked a mile in his shoes and i wont.
There is a vast difference to judging someone who is on trial.for murder and judging marine A now i have seen.this programme and the external factors may have contributed to his actions
however if i was on jury in a murder case any factors (past misdemeanors) that may sway jurors in either are removed until judgement is passed as law as to be seen as blind and without prejudice
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Rules of Engagement are a bit squeued in my opinion.
He broke the law.
He has been punished...and I suspect made a scapegoat....
I will be supporting his wife and family."
i have as a result of that programme. |
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"Rules of Engagement are a bit squeued in my opinion.
He broke the law."
The rules of engagement are as they are for a reason.
Ask any soldier or ex solider (me included) that has been restricted by the yellow card card and they will tell you that they hate it, it ties their hands behind their back. In my case in NI we knew there were about 600 terrorists in total on all sides and we were never allowed to touch them. I now hear similar complaints from soldiers in Afghanistan and I sympathise.
There is a very good reason why the rules of engagement are the way they are. Firstly they are only used in 'Police Actions' that is where troops are being used as police and to support civil authorities in restoring order (as in NI and Afghanistan. Soldiers do not make good policemen, soldiers are trained to fight and kill without thought, their levels of aggression are stimulated and honed to the maximum. As a result they must be kept on the tightest of leaches because when they are left off the leach they do what they do as has been seen all over the world and through history.
Now to all those who feel that the military are making a scapegoat out of a poor soldier who was placed in an intolerable situation and is now being punished for being human, I think you need to spend a little time thinking about the realities and consequences of removing the restrictions on our troops. There are lots of examples of our (very well trained) troops work when the gloves are off for you all to study. |
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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago
dirtybigbadsgirlville |
"Rules of Engagement are a bit squeued in my opinion.
He broke the law.
The rules of engagement are as they are for a reason.
Ask any soldier or ex solider (me included) that has been restricted by the yellow card card and they will tell you that they hate it, it ties their hands behind their back. In my case in NI we knew there were about 600 terrorists in total on all sides and we were never allowed to touch them. I now hear similar complaints from soldiers in Afghanistan and I sympathise.
There is a very good reason why the rules of engagement are the way they are. Firstly they are only used in 'Police Actions' that is where troops are being used as police and to support civil authorities in restoring order (as in NI and Afghanistan. Soldiers do not make good policemen, soldiers are trained to fight and kill without thought, their levels of aggression are stimulated and honed to the maximum. As a result they must be kept on the tightest of leaches because when they are left off the leach they do what they do as has been seen all over the world and through history.
Now to all those who feel that the military are making a scapegoat out of a poor soldier who was placed in an intolerable situation and is now being punished for being human, I think you need to spend a little time thinking about the realities and consequences of removing the restrictions on our troops. There are lots of examples of our (very well trained) troops work when the gloves are off for you all to study."
I don't need a lecture, I don't feel the need to put up what I know and how I know it, but trust me I am very aware of what the rules of Engagement are ...although earlier in the thread you were a Marine...any marine I know NEVER refers to himself as a soldier...you will now post another three or four long paragraphs on this so you go for it soldier. |
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"Rules of Engagement are a bit squeued in my opinion.
He broke the law.
The rules of engagement are as they are for a reason.
Ask any soldier or ex solider (me included) that has been restricted by the yellow card card and they will tell you that they hate it, it ties their hands behind their back. In my case in NI we knew there were about 600 terrorists in total on all sides and we were never allowed to touch them. I now hear similar complaints from soldiers in Afghanistan and I sympathise.
There is a very good reason why the rules of engagement are the way they are. Firstly they are only used in 'Police Actions' that is where troops are being used as police and to support civil authorities in restoring order (as in NI and Afghanistan. Soldiers do not make good policemen, soldiers are trained to fight and kill without thought, their levels of aggression are stimulated and honed to the maximum. As a result they must be kept on the tightest of leaches because when they are left off the leach they do what they do as has been seen all over the world and through history.
Now to all those who feel that the military are making a scapegoat out of a poor soldier who was placed in an intolerable situation and is now being punished for being human, I think you need to spend a little time thinking about the realities and consequences of removing the restrictions on our troops. There are lots of examples of our (very well trained) troops work when the gloves are off for you all to study.I don't need a lecture, I don't feel the need to put up what I know and how I know it, but trust me I am very aware of what the rules of Engagement are ...although earlier in the thread you were a Marine...any marine I know NEVER refers to himself as a soldier...you will now post another three or four long paragraphs on this so you go for it soldier. "
When we serve on land we are part of UKLF and governed by QR's for the Army and the Manual of Military Law.
Further if you are so aware of the rules of engagement, the reasons for them and the cost in service lives whenever they have not been followed I am really surprised that you would defend anyone who so blatantly broke those rules. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Rules of Engagement are a bit squeued in my opinion.
He broke the law.
The rules of engagement are as they are for a reason.
Ask any soldier or ex solider (me included) that has been restricted by the yellow card card and they will tell you that they hate it, it ties their hands behind their back. In my case in NI we knew there were about 600 terrorists in total on all sides and we were never allowed to touch them. I now hear similar complaints from soldiers in Afghanistan and I sympathise.
There is a very good reason why the rules of engagement are the way they are. Firstly they are only used in 'Police Actions' that is where troops are being used as police and to support civil authorities in restoring order (as in NI and Afghanistan. Soldiers do not make good policemen, soldiers are trained to fight and kill without thought, their levels of aggression are stimulated and honed to the maximum. As a result they must be kept on the tightest of leaches because when they are left off the leach they do what they do as has been seen all over the world and through history.
Now to all those who feel that the military are making a scapegoat out of a poor soldier who was placed in an intolerable situation and is now being punished for being human, I think you need to spend a little time thinking about the realities and consequences of removing the restrictions on our troops. There are lots of examples of our (very well trained) troops work when the gloves are off for you all to study.I don't need a lecture, I don't feel the need to put up what I know and how I know it, but trust me I am very aware of what the rules of Engagement are ...although earlier in the thread you were a Marine...any marine I know NEVER refers to himself as a soldier...you will now post another three or four long paragraphs on this so you go for it soldier.
When we serve on land we are part of UKLF and governed by QR's for the Army and the Manual of Military Law.
Further if you are so aware of the rules of engagement, the reasons for them and the cost in service lives whenever they have not been followed I am really surprised that you would defend anyone who so blatantly broke those rules. "
i understand the principal and the rationale behind the rules of engagement however i think if there was a poll conducted in the uk and people were asked if they saw the conflict in afghanistan and the troubles in NI as one and the same i very much doubt that the british public would know i admit i did not do know that our troops out there to fight under those restrictions it seems grossly unfair to me.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/judges-quash-uk-marine-alexander-blackmans-murder-conviction/ar-AAon8LC?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=UE07DHP
At last some sort of judgement |
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By *atcoupleCouple
over a year ago
Suffolk - East Anglia |
"http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/judges-quash-uk-marine-alexander-blackmans-murder-conviction/ar-AAon8LC?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=UE07DHP
At last some sort of judgement "
Yes; common sense in the judiciary has prevailed!!!
Original conviction overturned and a lesser charge now which means Sgt Blackman may be released very soon.
What a result and grateful thanks to all those who supported him.
These guys are real men.. not keyboard heroes handing out judgement from the safety of their homes, these fellows know what a hostile situation is really like and how it can affect the strongest mind.
Hopefully, Sgt Blackman can enjoy a peaceful future in the company of his family and colleagues. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Fascinating programme about Marine A (Alexander Blackman) who was convicted of murdering a taliban in afghanistan
Marine A came across a taliban who had been shot by a apache helicopter and then finished off by Marine A
just as an aside I never realised that the british solidiers in afghanistan cannot fire first even if they identify them and even if they are armed they cannot fire under the rules of engagement.
I also never realised that if a british solidier is shot and captured by the taliban in afghanistan they are tortured and their bodies mutilated.
I do not think.anyone can judge this man unless you have walked a mile in his shoes and therefore i do not think.marine A should be in prison for murder.
A mirror image case on a candian solidier who shot a taliban after he to was shot by a apache helicopter first- he was
found not guilty
A really fascinating programme with all.sides of the agrument
i hope Alexander Blackman is sucessful in his appeal."
Different rules of engagement, I believe. All depends on the mission. |
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