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Michael Gove
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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He might be a bit ham fisted, and without doubt he has made mistakes, but he seems to genuinely want to improve kids education in this country which has to be commendable. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"You are entitled to your opinion. It's not one I can share.
Gove makes me madder than Shapps does and that's saying something.
"
He certainly divides opinion. I am sure he could be going about it in a better way, but he does seem determined to improve the education for all which can't be a bad thing can it? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Sorry, but you clearly aren't in education to have come out with such tripe!!
Because of this utter twunt I have had 3 children in tears because he's changed the law and such they've been pulled out of exams that they have worked their socks off for. He has scrapped speaking and listening from the English curriculum which is ridiculous.
The sooner he pisses off the better!! All I would need is 5 minutes in a room with him with barbed wire and a sounding kit! |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"You are entitled to your opinion. It's not one I can share.
Gove makes me madder than Shapps does and that's saying something.
"
Shapps seems to work at being a cunt but for Gove it just comes naturally. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ok, I'm going to say it and then stick on my hard hat and duck behind a large rock, but I quite like him."
I wouldn't go that far but he has advisor's and some of his Ideas on team sports are not bad ones. Or do you mean like him in who a cute guy way?  |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"You are entitled to your opinion. It's not one I can share.
Gove makes me madder than Shapps does and that's saying something.
He certainly divides opinion. I am sure he could be going about it in a better way, but he does seem determined to improve the education for all which can't be a bad thing can it?"
One model does not work for every child. Condemning a whole group of children because they don't fit the model he has defined as the only way doesn't improve education for all.
You can't get state schools to be indistinguishable to private schools until you can replicate the smaller class sizes. How does that happen when the resources aren't there for the physical classroom space and teaching capacity to make that happen?
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Sorry, but you clearly aren't in education to have come out with such tripe!!
Because of this utter twunt I have had 3 children in tears because he's changed the law and such they've been pulled out of exams that they have worked their socks off for. He has scrapped speaking and listening from the English curriculum which is ridiculous.
The sooner he pisses off the better!! All I would need is 5 minutes in a room with him with barbed wire and a sounding kit!"
You're right, I'm not in education and the situation you describe sounds awful. But is it so wrong to want to improve standards across the board and seek to provide children from all walks of life with better prospects? |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Sorry, but you clearly aren't in education to have come out with such tripe!!
Because of this utter twunt I have had 3 children in tears because he's changed the law and such they've been pulled out of exams that they have worked their socks off for. He has scrapped speaking and listening from the English curriculum which is ridiculous.
The sooner he pisses off the better!! All I would need is 5 minutes in a room with him with barbed wire and a sounding kit!
You're right, I'm not in education and the situation you describe sounds awful. But is it so wrong to want to improve standards across the board and seek to provide children from all walks of life with better prospects?"
There is nothing wrong with that aspiration but when he chooses to ignore educationalists because their advice doesn't fit with his idea then you have to question whether he is serious about achieving success for all children and young people.
I met a young woman who managed to change his mind on scrapping all teaching of climate change. That was good but the fact that he determined it's not something our young people need to learn about is madness.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sorry, but you clearly aren't in education to have come out with such tripe!!
Because of this utter twunt I have had 3 children in tears because he's changed the law and such they've been pulled out of exams that they have worked their socks off for. He has scrapped speaking and listening from the English curriculum which is ridiculous.
The sooner he pisses off the better!! All I would need is 5 minutes in a room with him with barbed wire and a sounding kit!
You're right, I'm not in education and the situation you describe sounds awful. But is it so wrong to want to improve standards across the board and seek to provide children from all walks of life with better prospects?"
No its not, but it certainly won't be happening whilst Gove is the Education Secretary. He honestly has no clue. What he is doing to education is abysmal, he doesn't listen to teachers, which you would think would be a sensible suggestion as they are the professionals. But no, he knows best. I can but only hope he loses his seat in May 2015. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Sorry, but you clearly aren't in education to have come out with such tripe!!
Because of this utter twunt I have had 3 children in tears because he's changed the law and such they've been pulled out of exams that they have worked their socks off for. He has scrapped speaking and listening from the English curriculum which is ridiculous.
The sooner he pisses off the better!! All I would need is 5 minutes in a room with him with barbed wire and a sounding kit!
You're right, I'm not in education and the situation you describe sounds awful. But is it so wrong to want to improve standards across the board and seek to provide children from all walks of life with better prospects?"
But it isn't "children from all walks of life", it's the ones he thinks will grow up to vote Tory. |
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By *am789Man
over a year ago
Preston |
All He is doing is playing at education.
In reality the one thing that should be done He can't afford to do and wouldn't even mention.
Simply put is "reduce class sizes" ideally to twenty at the most. |
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By *athnBobCouple
over a year ago
sandwell |
He has stated that ALL schools must be rated as "good" by Ofsted
To get a "good" from Ofsted the school must produce results above the national average.
I have no idea who taught Gove maths but ...... |
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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"He might be a bit ham fisted, and without doubt he has made mistakes, but he seems to genuinely want to improve kids education in this country which has to be commendable."
Any education minister who ignores the experts in education and makes decisions which are not based on what is known as good education does not have the best interests of children at the heart of his policies.
Ofsted, the STRB and all the unions disagree with him.
Where is he getting it right? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Goodness me. I do not know where to start... Gove is a mad man with no clue about education other than the one he received. And to say "he clearly wants to improve education..." Well yeah, that's the only clearly defined rule of his job role even though he has no idea how to go about it. One size does not fit all, his methods will work for those from stable and happy backgrounds but whatabout the other 80% of society?!
I tthink we can all agree that you are wrong. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"He might be a bit ham fisted, and without doubt he has made mistakes, but he seems to genuinely want to improve kids education in this country which has to be commendable.
Any education minister who ignores the experts in education and makes decisions which are not based on what is known as good education does not have the best interests of children at the heart of his policies.
Ofsted, the STRB and all the unions disagree with him.
Where is he getting it right?"
Have to agree with DB here. If you apply the basics of any good project management, any proposals - before they make it into the public domain in the case of government policy - would have to undergo rigorous testing, consultation, feasibility/viability studies, independent analysis, the list is endless.
It's an understatement to say he hasn't gone about things in the right way. Education ministers are seldom popular. But most can at least communicate and have dialogue with the people they are meant to be helping. Children, parents and teachers seem left out of the Gove loop, it would seem.
Sorry, CityGent, I think you have this wrong. |
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I always get the impression that Gove was bullied at school; and now it's payback time!
The guy is an idiot, end of! I won't even go into the reasons why, as it would take too long.
For the record though, I dislike him far less than two of our daughters, who are teachers. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I always get the impression that Gove was bullied at school; and now it's payback time!
The guy is an idiot, end of! I won't even go into the reasons why, as it would take too long.
For the record though, I dislike him far less than two of our daughters, who are teachers."
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I always get the impression that Gove was bullied at school; and now it's payback time!
The guy is an idiot, end of! I won't even go into the reasons why, as it would take too long.
For the record though, I dislike him far less than two of our daughters, who are teachers."
You dislike your own daughters?!?? Bit harsh |
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"He might be a bit ham fisted, and without doubt he has made mistakes, but he seems to genuinely want to improve kids education in this country which has to be commendable.
Any education minister who ignores the experts in education and makes decisions which are not based on what is known as good education does not have the best interests of children at the heart of his policies.
Ofsted, the STRB and all the unions disagree with him.
Where is he getting it right?"
Let's face it, "education experts" and the above bodies have hardly got a great track record for improving standards. STRB and the unions are more concerned with teachers pay than the quality of education, and Ofsted are the ultimate box tickers, so maybe by just disagreeing with them he is getting something right. |
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"Let's face it, "education experts" and the above bodies have hardly got a great track record for improving standards. STRB and the unions are more concerned with teachers pay than the quality of education, and Ofsted are the ultimate box tickers, so maybe by just disagreeing with them he is getting something right."
Funny, how qualified teachers are blamed for all the ills in the state education system, however its politicians and civil servants that tell qualified teachers how to do their job despite their objections.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"He might be a bit ham fisted, and without doubt he has made mistakes, but he seems to genuinely want to improve kids education in this country which has to be commendable."
Does he? Seems to me he just wants to make a big change, any change to stamp his name on. Doesn't care about the damage to the children or teachers so long as he gets famous.
Would rather a well thought out strategic and long term process without grandstanding and screwing up education for a generation for personal glory. |
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So, seems like the overall opinion is against him - good.
As others say, we should have rigorous evidence of any major change's effectiveness before implementation, not stuff off the top of the head of some dim witted pratt (I'll be diplomatic with my language). Just as with the 'there will be no major reorganisation of the NHS' talk, prior to election, before they then implemented one of the most devastating re-organisations in its history, costing £billions. Those £billions could have been spent on more equipment, staff or medication, or even in education. But no, ideological change at any cost, after telling lies pre-election, to defraud the population and get elected.
Gove is a piss poor excuse for a man, let alone someone wielding enormous power over our future citizens' lives: certainly not to be trusted. And the fiasco with these schools that are now not local authority controlled, where it seems any ragamuffin can be employed as a teacher - absolutely so wrong on so many levels.
Can't wait till this government is removed. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ok, I'm going to say it and then stick on my hard hat and duck behind a large rock, but I quite like him."
the man is a conceited baffoon like Boris without the humour , his academy drive is in tatters with the businesses making money out of schools having to hand them back.
this is a fun site so he has no place here  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Our standards as measured by international bodies have shown a large decline over the years, surely "appropriate challenge" of the status quo is exactly what he should be doing rather than accepting the decline because that is what the experts tell him? Leadership can be an unpopuar and lonely place at times, time will tell if he has got anything right or made an utter balls up of an already less than perfect situation. |
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the guy is clueless, he's an idealogue set loose by his old etonian chums to wreak havoc on the state system in order to privatise it to 'save it' from the nasty teachers..
bit like Putin at present..
any Minister who sets up a 'free school' project which has allowed none qualified teachers in some of these establishments against all the hundreds of collective years of experience against it is a complete fool..
he's not a fool cos he's a tory, he's a fool end of.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Our standards as measured by international bodies have shown a large decline over the years, surely "appropriate challenge" of the status quo is exactly what he should be doing rather than accepting the decline because that is what the experts tell him? Leadership can be an unpopuar and lonely place at times, time will tell if he has got anything right or made an utter balls up of an already less than perfect situation."
We don't need time to tell!! Its being proven now. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ok, I'm going to say it and then stick on my hard hat and duck behind a large rock, but I quite like him."
Why? 
Give me something constructive that he's done for education in the UK.
Even if you could, the damage that he's done through most of his decisions would outweigh it completely.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Not only is he on a mission to privatise state education to a point where if you want your kids to go to a good school you will have to pay; the rest can go to schools where non-qualified or degree educated teachers will be employed, he also looks like 80's welsh kids tv puppet POB |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not only is he on a mission to privatise state education to a point where if you want your kids to go to a good school you will have to pay; the rest can go to schools where non-qualified or degree educated teachers will be employed, he also looks like 80's welsh kids tv puppet POB"
You're not alone!  |
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"Our standards as measured by international bodies have shown a large decline over the years, surely "appropriate challenge" of the status quo is exactly what he should be doing rather than accepting the decline because that is what the experts tell him? Leadership can be an unpopuar and lonely place at times, time will tell if he has got anything right or made an utter balls up of an already less than perfect situation."
Funny, we had a fantastic education system put in place by the Victorians, consolidated by the Edwardian's, improved in the inter-war years and finally nearly perfected in the 50's. It was caused the Grammar School system. Then the politicians decided that they needed to overhaul the whole system and remove selection, so we got the comprehensive system. The result was a lowering of standards. So the politicians then scrapped streaming which further lowered standards. Then in order to cover up their educational cock-ups they decided to screw around with higher education and to turn all the polytechnics and teacher training colleges and other CNAA affiliated educational establishment into universities, again lowering standards.
Anyone notice a pattern here?
Maybe its time for politicians to stop screwing with our education system and restore the 1947 factory default settings!
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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"He might be a bit ham fisted, and without doubt he has made mistakes, but he seems to genuinely want to improve kids education in this country which has to be commendable.
Any education minister who ignores the experts in education and makes decisions which are not based on what is known as good education does not have the best interests of children at the heart of his policies.
Ofsted, the STRB and all the unions disagree with him.
Where is he getting it right?
Let's face it, "education experts" and the above bodies have hardly got a great track record for improving standards. STRB and the unions are more concerned with teachers pay than the quality of education, and Ofsted are the ultimate box tickers, so maybe by just disagreeing with them he is getting something right."
Factually incorrect. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Problem with schools is pretty much the same as the problems throughout our society at the moment, everything has to be accountable so must fit into the check boxes. Trouble is kids often don't. Which leads to lots of frustrated teachers trying to make round kids square to fit through the holes and spending too much time reporting on that so Ofstead can tick a box and the government can tell us that kid A is bad at mathematical theory, and kid B is a bad bricklayer. which is fine'ish except they never realise that bricklayers use a lot of mathematics, and mathematicians don't need to build walls. |
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"I always get the impression that Gove was bullied at school; and now it's payback time!
The guy is an idiot, end of! I won't even go into the reasons why, as it would take too long.
For the record though, I dislike him far less than two of our daughters, who are teachers.
You dislike your own daughters?!?? Bit harsh"
I'll admit, that was very poor grammar! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Problem with schools is pretty much the same as the problems throughout our society at the moment, everything has to be accountable so must fit into the check boxes. Trouble is kids often don't. Which leads to lots of frustrated teachers trying to make round kids square to fit through the holes and spending too much time reporting on that so Ofstead can tick a box and the government can tell us that kid A is bad at mathematical theory, and kid B is a bad bricklayer. which is fine'ish except they never realise that bricklayers use a lot of mathematics, and mathematicians don't need to build walls. "
He seems to be advocating a vocational as well as academic based education system. In an age where youth unemployment is horribly high does it not suggest the need for change to ensure our next generation are equipped for work in an ever changing economy?? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sorry, but you clearly aren't in education to have come out with such tripe!!
Because of this utter twunt I have had 3 children in tears because he's changed the law and such they've been pulled out of exams that they have worked their socks off for. He has scrapped speaking and listening from the English curriculum which is ridiculous.
The sooner he pisses off the better!! All I would need is 5 minutes in a room with him with barbed wire and a sounding kit!
You're right, I'm not in education and the situation you describe sounds awful. But is it so wrong to want to improve standards across the board and seek to provide children from all walks of life with better prospects?"
we've been hearing this talk for years. They try something,it doesn't work so they announce the new idea hoping it will work |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Our standards as measured by international bodies have shown a large decline over the years, surely "appropriate challenge" of the status quo is exactly what he should be doing rather than accepting the decline because that is what the experts tell him? Leadership can be an unpopuar and lonely place at times, time will tell if he has got anything right or made an utter balls up of an already less than perfect situation."
Let us not forget just two of the reasons the education system is in decline compared to the countries on the rise: our society does not value teaching as a profession; many parents have abdicated responsibility for their role in teaching their children.
When qualified teachers now have to spend the first two terms teaching children to use the toilet, to sit still and how to be quiet we're already behind. They then get blamed because the children aren't moving fast enough through the material.
Education doesn't happen just in schools.
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"Problem with schools is pretty much the same as the problems throughout our society at the moment, everything has to be accountable so must fit into the check boxes. Trouble is kids often don't. Which leads to lots of frustrated teachers trying to make round kids square to fit through the holes and spending too much time reporting on that so Ofstead can tick a box and the government can tell us that kid A is bad at mathematical theory, and kid B is a bad bricklayer. which is fine'ish except they never realise that bricklayers use a lot of mathematics, and mathematicians don't need to build walls.
He seems to be advocating a vocational as well as academic based education system. In an age where youth unemployment is horribly high does it not suggest the need for change to ensure our next generation are equipped for work in an ever changing economy??"
What he actually advocates is...well actually, no one knows! The man has done u-turns on pretty much every policy that he has failed to implement thus far. In the process, he seems to have pissed off every Civil Servant who has had the misfortune to cross his path, whether they be (former) friend, or foe!
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"Our standards as measured by international bodies have shown a large decline over the years, surely "appropriate challenge" of the status quo is exactly what he should be doing rather than accepting the decline because that is what the experts tell him? Leadership can be an unpopuar and lonely place at times, time will tell if he has got anything right or made an utter balls up of an already less than perfect situation.
Let us not forget just two of the reasons the education system is in decline compared to the countries on the rise: our society does not value teaching as a profession; many parents have abdicated responsibility for their role in teaching their children.
When qualified teachers now have to spend the first two terms teaching children to use the toilet, to sit still and how to be quiet we're already behind. They then get blamed because the children aren't moving fast enough through the material.
Education doesn't happen just in schools.
"
Hallelujah! |
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"Our standards as measured by international bodies have shown a large decline over the years, surely "appropriate challenge" of the status quo is exactly what he should be doing rather than accepting the decline because that is what the experts tell him? Leadership can be an unpopuar and lonely place at times, time will tell if he has got anything right or made an utter balls up of an already less than perfect situation.
Funny, we had a fantastic education system put in place by the Victorians, consolidated by the Edwardian's, improved in the inter-war years and finally nearly perfected in the 50's. It was caused the Grammar School system. Then the politicians decided that they needed to overhaul the whole system and remove selection, so we got the comprehensive system. The result was a lowering of standards. So the politicians then scrapped streaming which further lowered standards. Then in order to cover up their educational cock-ups they decided to screw around with higher education and to turn all the polytechnics and teacher training colleges and other CNAA affiliated educational establishment into universities, again lowering standards.
Anyone notice a pattern here?
Maybe its time for politicians to stop screwing with our education system and restore the 1947 factory default settings!
"
Here here. 
Very easy to blame Gove for all the ill's of the education system, but it's been a slow motion train wreck since the 60's. Labour fucked it by abolishing Grammar schools, and introducing touchy feely trendy educational shit. The Tories are no better because they have had enough time in the 80's and 90's to put it right and did fuck all.
Gove may not be perfect but he's certainly, and rightly, putting the cat among the pigeons, and about time too.
Oh and Marion Richardson ruined my life. Look her up, the evil, vicious, nasty, educational fuck wit that she was. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Our standards as measured by international bodies have shown a large decline over the years, surely "appropriate challenge" of the status quo is exactly what he should be doing rather than accepting the decline because that is what the experts tell him? Leadership can be an unpopuar and lonely place at times, time will tell if he has got anything right or made an utter balls up of an already less than perfect situation.
Funny, we had a fantastic education system put in place by the Victorians, consolidated by the Edwardian's, improved in the inter-war years and finally nearly perfected in the 50's. It was caused the Grammar School system. Then the politicians decided that they needed to overhaul the whole system and remove selection, so we got the comprehensive system. The result was a lowering of standards. So the politicians then scrapped streaming which further lowered standards. Then in order to cover up their educational cock-ups they decided to screw around with higher education and to turn all the polytechnics and teacher training colleges and other CNAA affiliated educational establishment into universities, again lowering standards.
Anyone notice a pattern here?
Maybe its time for politicians to stop screwing with our education system and restore the 1947 factory default settings!
Here here.
Very easy to blame Gove for all the ill's of the education system, but it's been a slow motion train wreck since the 60's. Labour fucked it by abolishing Grammar schools, and introducing touchy feely trendy educational shit. The Tories are no better because they have had enough time in the 80's and 90's to put it right and did fuck all.
Gove may not be perfect but he's certainly, and rightly, putting the cat among the pigeons, and about time too.
Oh and Marion Richardson ruined my life. Look her up, the evil, vicious, nasty, educational fuck wit that she was."
There is a Marion Richardson school in East London and I've never thought about who she is/was. Now I'll need to find out.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Our standards as measured by international bodies have shown a large decline over the years, surely "appropriate challenge" of the status quo is exactly what he should be doing rather than accepting the decline because that is what the experts tell him? Leadership can be an unpopuar and lonely place at times, time will tell if he has got anything right or made an utter balls up of an already less than perfect situation.
Funny, we had a fantastic education system put in place by the Victorians, consolidated by the Edwardian's, improved in the inter-war years and finally nearly perfected in the 50's. It was caused the Grammar School system. Then the politicians decided that they needed to overhaul the whole system and remove selection, so we got the comprehensive system. The result was a lowering of standards. So the politicians then scrapped streaming which further lowered standards. Then in order to cover up their educational cock-ups they decided to screw around with higher education and to turn all the polytechnics and teacher training colleges and other CNAA affiliated educational establishment into universities, again lowering standards.
Anyone notice a pattern here?
Maybe its time for politicians to stop screwing with our education system and restore the 1947 factory default settings!
Here here.
Very easy to blame Gove for all the ill's of the education system, but it's been a slow motion train wreck since the 60's. Labour fucked it by abolishing Grammar schools, and introducing touchy feely trendy educational shit. The Tories are no better because they have had enough time in the 80's and 90's to put it right and did fuck all.
Gove may not be perfect but he's certainly, and rightly, putting the cat among the pigeons, and about time too.
Oh and Marion Richardson ruined my life. Look her up, the evil, vicious, nasty, educational fuck wit that she was."
but who is Marion Richardson??? |
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Marion Richardson was a so called "progressive" educationalist. Although she died in the 1940's many of her ideas were adopted into main stream education in the 60's, including (among other things) new styles of handwriting. While I was at primary school we were forced to pretty much "unlearn" everything and start again using her style which was completely different to what we had previously learned.
As a result myself and many others lost a good year of education while our teachers tried, to the exclusion of many other things that we should have been learning, to drum her ideas into our heads.
She was also a pioneer of some of the modern "child centred" teaching methods, so loved by many in the teaching profession, but which have been shown to be a total failure. This woman and her followers have destroyed millions of lives.
Even after all the years I've never forgotten her, and never will.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Marion Richardson was a so called "progressive" educationalist. Although she died in the 1940's many of her ideas were adopted into main stream education in the 60's, including (among other things) new styles of handwriting. While I was at primary school we were forced to pretty much "unlearn" everything and start again using her style which was completely different to what we had previously learned.
As a result myself and many others lost a good year of education while our teachers tried, to the exclusion of many other things that we should have been learning, to drum her ideas into our heads.
She was also a pioneer of some of the modern "child centred" teaching methods, so loved by many in the teaching profession, but which have been shown to be a total failure. This woman and her followers have destroyed millions of lives.
Even after all the years I've never forgotten her, and never will.
"
I guess Gove will be judged over time in the same way as Marion Richardson, we will see if he got it right or wrong. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I guess Gove will be judged over time in the same way as Marion Richardson, we will see if he got it right or wrong."
I doubt it, so far I don't think he has actually implemented anything. just announced proposals then pulled a U Turn and announced another proposal after everyone has run around like headless chickens for a while |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You are entitled to your opinion. It's not one I can share.
Gove makes me madder than Shapps does and that's saying something.
He certainly divides opinion. I am sure he could be going about it in a better way, but he does seem determined to improve the education for all which can't be a bad thing can it?"
That's his job, all politicians especially ministers are great actors, of course he is giving the impression of being determined to improve education, his actions suggest otherwise. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"You are entitled to your opinion. It's not one I can share.
Gove makes me madder than Shapps does and that's saying something.
He certainly divides opinion. I am sure he could be going about it in a better way, but he does seem determined to improve the education for all which can't be a bad thing can it?
That's his job, all politicians especially ministers are great actors, of course he is giving the impression of being determined to improve education, his actions suggest otherwise. "
So be inference you are suggesting that he actually wants to make educational standards worse? That maybe the result of the changes he is trying to implement. But to suggest he is deliberately trying to do so is quite an allegation. |
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"You are entitled to your opinion. It's not one I can share.
Gove makes me madder than Shapps does and that's saying something.
He certainly divides opinion. I am sure he could be going about it in a better way, but he does seem determined to improve the education for all which can't be a bad thing can it?
That's his job, all politicians especially ministers are great actors, of course he is giving the impression of being determined to improve education, his actions suggest otherwise.
So be inference you are suggesting that he actually wants to make educational standards worse? That maybe the result of the changes he is trying to implement. But to suggest he is deliberately trying to do so is quite an allegation. "
Lets just have a quick look at that...
Call me We Are All In It Together Dave camMoron and his mate Georgie Boy have given everyone that earns over 150000 a 5% tax cut while cutting benefits for the poorest in the country, forcing many out of their homes and onto the streets so that their carpetbagging mates can line their pockets. So why would anyone find it hard to believe that Goofy Gove would be doing the same with education. The first thing they did was make higher education so expensive that those from poor backgrounds are now looking at becoming so indebted by university that it is out of their reach. After all illiterate peasants are easier to control than uppity educated prols! |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
We are evolving into a nation of closed minded bigots. People set out their positions and stand resolutely by them irrespective of the evidence, or suggestion, that there may be an alternative.
It is worth remembering that we quite recently had three Prime Ministers in a row that had been educated at State schools. As a result of socialist propaganda against Grammar schools, this will never happen again. The laws of un intended consequences came into effect when labours never ending opposition to Grammar schools meant that they largely became consigned to history. Now you have to pay for the best education, it is no longer available to all. You can be assured that all our future Prime Ministers will have had a private education, simply because the state no longer provides centres of excellence.
Michael Gove has his heart in the right place and he wants to change something that is in dire need of change. He is passionate about it and fair play to him for having a go. |
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"We are evolving into a nation of closed minded bigots. People set out their positions and stand resolutely by them irrespective of the evidence, or suggestion, that there may be an alternative.
It is worth remembering that we quite recently had three Prime Ministers in a row that had been educated at State schools. As a result of socialist propaganda against Grammar schools, this will never happen again. The laws of un intended consequences came into effect when labours never ending opposition to Grammar schools meant that they largely became consigned to history. Now you have to pay for the best education, it is no longer available to all. You can be assured that all our future Prime Ministers will have had a private education, simply because the state no longer provides centres of excellence.
Michael Gove has his heart in the right place and he wants to change something that is in dire need of change. He is passionate about it and fair play to him for having a go."
Actually I have a feeling that if you check the facts you will find its the Tories that started dismantling the Grammar School system in the 60's after Harold Wilson (Labour) became the first Grammar School educated PM. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"We are evolving into a nation of closed minded bigots. People set out their positions and stand resolutely by them irrespective of the evidence, or suggestion, that there may be an alternative.
It is worth remembering that we quite recently had three Prime Ministers in a row that had been educated at State schools. As a result of socialist propaganda against Grammar schools, this will never happen again. The laws of un intended consequences came into effect when labours never ending opposition to Grammar schools meant that they largely became consigned to history. Now you have to pay for the best education, it is no longer available to all. You can be assured that all our future Prime Ministers will have had a private education, simply because the state no longer provides centres of excellence.
Michael Gove has his heart in the right place and he wants to change something that is in dire need of change. He is passionate about it and fair play to him for having a go.
Actually I have a feeling that if you check the facts you will find its the Tories that started dismantling the Grammar School system in the 60's after Harold Wilson (Labour) became the first Grammar School educated PM."
Whoever was responsible has a lot to answer for. Grammar schools today still offer great education but are the domain of the middle class being situated primarily in wealthy areas where parents can afford tuition fees to prep for the entrance exams. The proportion of those entering from poorer backgrounds is tiny. I hope for kids from all backgrounds that our future education system offers social mobility for those from poorer backgrounds and that future leaders of this country are drawn from wide and varied upbringings. |
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By *athnBobCouple
over a year ago
sandwell |
Gove is the worst sort of incompetent fool. He thinks he is clever and right.
TBH Labour are no better. Their latest plan is to make schools responsible and accountable for pupils who have left school and do not continue studying maths and english. So they will be accountable for something they have no control over. That makes sense. |
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By *aitinkCouple
over a year ago
York |
Now how do we make education independent of politics: it takes a minimum of 7 years to verify whether or not a change in the education system works or not. The government horizon is 5 years and as nearly every voter has a child or grandchild in school it makes education an easy target to pander to one or more prejudices about schools from voters who quite frankly hasn't got a clue. Hence for the last 60 odd years government has instituted a policy of any change is better than no change as long as it is wrapped up in an ounce of hope. Quite frankly I'd like to see the DfE abolished (wow that would help the Government's spending targets) and schools left to the local authorities - though many senior councillors see their education budget as their personal slush fund. |
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"We are evolving into a nation of closed minded bigots. People set out their positions and stand resolutely by them irrespective of the evidence, or suggestion, that there may be an alternative.
It is worth remembering that we quite recently had three Prime Ministers in a row that had been educated at State schools. As a result of socialist propaganda against Grammar schools, this will never happen again. The laws of un intended consequences came into effect when labours never ending opposition to Grammar schools meant that they largely became consigned to history. Now you have to pay for the best education, it is no longer available to all. You can be assured that all our future Prime Ministers will have had a private education, simply because the state no longer provides centres of excellence.
Michael Gove has his heart in the right place and he wants to change something that is in dire need of change. He is passionate about it and fair play to him for having a go.
Actually I have a feeling that if you check the facts you will find its the Tories that started dismantling the Grammar School system in the 60's after Harold Wilson (Labour) became the first Grammar School educated PM."
And the Tory government in the 60's after Wilson was in what year exactly? |
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"We are evolving into a nation of closed minded bigots. People set out their positions and stand resolutely by them irrespective of the evidence, or suggestion, that there may be an alternative.
It is worth remembering that we quite recently had three Prime Ministers in a row that had been educated at State schools. As a result of socialist propaganda against Grammar schools, this will never happen again. The laws of un intended consequences came into effect when labours never ending opposition to Grammar schools meant that they largely became consigned to history. Now you have to pay for the best education, it is no longer available to all. You can be assured that all our future Prime Ministers will have had a private education, simply because the state no longer provides centres of excellence.
Michael Gove has his heart in the right place and he wants to change something that is in dire need of change. He is passionate about it and fair play to him for having a go."
Well said |
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"I would add that there is only one party committed to the re-introduction of grammar schools.
UKIP."
there you go then..
best to forget that by and large they are a bunch of muppets and put them in power just for that..
|
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"I would add that there is only one party committed to the re-introduction of grammar schools.
UKIP.
there you go then..
best to forget that by and large they are a bunch of muppets and put them in power just for that..
"
Yeah right, a bunch of muppets that want to bring back grammar schools, abandon the white elephant known as HS2, pull us out of a club that costs 50 million quid a day and now needs a 20 billion bailout itself, oh not forgetting that no-one will put their name to the books for the last 18 years. A club that has 3 presidents that all get paid more than Obama, love him or hate him, at least he was elected, more than you can say for the 3 European presidents, could you even name them?
Yes those muppets that want (SHOCK HORROR) to actually curb immigration onto this small shrinking island, a policy that is even supported by most of the established immigrant community's.
Not forgetting the muppets that want to make the National health service exactly that, instead of the international health service we have at the moment. Three weeks for a GP appointment? no sweat, I'm happy to die while our politicians show the world how caring we are.
Signed Kermit.
Proud to be a muppet. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Every five years or so we place an eager amateur in charge of our education system and each of them tell us that standards have declined over the preeceding period.
There might be a fairly obvious correlation there. |
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"I would add that there is only one party committed to the re-introduction of grammar schools.
UKIP.
there you go then..
best to forget that by and large they are a bunch of muppets and put them in power just for that..
Yeah right, a bunch of muppets that want to bring back grammar schools, abandon the white elephant known as HS2, pull us out of a club that costs 50 million quid a day and now needs a 20 billion bailout itself, oh not forgetting that no-one will put their name to the books for the last 18 years. A club that has 3 presidents that all get paid more than Obama, love him or hate him, at least he was elected, more than you can say for the 3 European presidents, could you even name them?
Yes those muppets that want (SHOCK HORROR) to actually curb immigration onto this small shrinking island, a policy that is even supported by most of the established immigrant community's.
Not forgetting the muppets that want to make the National health service exactly that, instead of the international health service we have at the moment. Three weeks for a GP appointment? no sweat, I'm happy to die while our politicians show the world how caring we are.
Signed Kermit.
Proud to be a muppet."
its not going to happen and they themselves know it so as usual they are promising the earth and know they will never have to deliver..
'this small shrinking island' is that Germany or Spain..?
last i looked neither are an island..
dream on Kermit..
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
Spoke to a very well respected teacher who is retiring this year but has been publically acknowledged as one of the best in his field. Clearly not representative as he is only one voice, but he claimed that Gove was the best thing to happen in education for decades, but he had no chance as the entrenched views of the unions, ofsted etc. |
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"I would add that there is only one party committed to the re-introduction of grammar schools.
UKIP.
there you go then..
best to forget that by and large they are a bunch of muppets and put them in power just for that..
Yeah right, a bunch of muppets that want to bring back grammar schools, abandon the white elephant known as HS2, pull us out of a club that costs 50 million quid a day and now needs a 20 billion bailout itself, oh not forgetting that no-one will put their name to the books for the last 18 years. A club that has 3 presidents that all get paid more than Obama, love him or hate him, at least he was elected, more than you can say for the 3 European presidents, could you even name them?
Yes those muppets that want (SHOCK HORROR) to actually curb immigration onto this small shrinking island, a policy that is even supported by most of the established immigrant community's.
Not forgetting the muppets that want to make the National health service exactly that, instead of the international health service we have at the moment. Three weeks for a GP appointment? no sweat, I'm happy to die while our politicians show the world how caring we are.
Signed Kermit.
Proud to be a muppet.
its not going to happen and they themselves know it so as usual they are promising the earth and know they will never have to deliver..
'this small shrinking island' is that Germany or Spain..?
last i looked neither are an island..
dream on Kermit..
"
In Blackpool at the moment and last time I looked it was on an island. 
As for UKIP they almost certainly wont win the next general election. BUT. They have a very good chance of winning the Euro elections in May and Euro sceptic party's from all over Europe WILL make MASSIVE gains this time around.
If you are happy being governed by a Mafia dominated, corrupt, unelected elite then vote Lib/Lab/Con who will be happy to rubber stamp anything that the successors of Al Capone want. If not vote UKIP. |
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"Spoke to a very well respected teacher who is retiring this year but has been publically acknowledged as one of the best in his field. Clearly not representative as he is only one voice, but he claimed that Gove was the best thing to happen in education for decades, but he had no chance as the entrenched views of the unions, ofsted etc. "
Very sad, but very true |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"
In Blackpool at the moment and last time I looked it was on an island.
As for UKIP they almost certainly wont win the next general election. BUT. They have a very good chance of winning the Euro elections in May and Euro sceptic party's from all over Europe WILL make MASSIVE gains this time around.
If you are happy being governed by a Mafia dominated, corrupt, unelected elite then vote Lib/Lab/Con who will be happy to rubber stamp anything that the successors of Al Capone want. If not vote UKIP."
So, we as a country elect UKIPpers to be MEPs where they get paid to represent us in Europe and they spend their time here arguing we should be out of Europe and electioneering for a general election. How are they doing the job they were elected to?
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Spoke to a very well respected teacher who is retiring this year but has been publically acknowledged as one of the best in his field. Clearly not representative as he is only one voice, but he claimed that Gove was the best thing to happen in education for decades, but he had no chance as the entrenched views of the unions, ofsted etc. "
When you say 'unions, ofsted etc.', d'ye mean people who have actual experience of education as opposed to a journalist who used to be a fish gutter? |
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"Spoke to a very well respected teacher who is retiring this year but has been publically acknowledged as one of the best in his field. Clearly not representative as he is only one voice, but he claimed that Gove was the best thing to happen in education for decades, but he had no chance as the entrenched views of the unions, ofsted etc. "
care to name him..
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I would add that there is only one party committed to the re-introduction of grammar schools.
UKIP.
there you go then..
best to forget that by and large they are a bunch of muppets and put them in power just for that..
Yeah right, a bunch of muppets that want to bring back grammar schools, abandon the white elephant known as HS2, pull us out of a club that costs 50 million quid a day and now needs a 20 billion bailout itself, oh not forgetting that no-one will put their name to the books for the last 18 years. A club that has 3 presidents that all get paid more than Obama, love him or hate him, at least he was elected, more than you can say for the 3 European presidents, could you even name them?
Yes those muppets that want (SHOCK HORROR) to actually curb immigration onto this small shrinking island, a policy that is even supported by most of the established immigrant community's.
Not forgetting the muppets that want to make the National health service exactly that, instead of the international health service we have at the moment. Three weeks for a GP appointment? no sweat, I'm happy to die while our politicians show the world how caring we are.
Signed Kermit.
Proud to be a muppet.
its not going to happen and they themselves know it so as usual they are promising the earth and know they will never have to deliver..
'this small shrinking island' is that Germany or Spain..?
last i looked neither are an island..
dream on Kermit..
In Blackpool at the moment and last time I looked it was on an island.
As for UKIP they almost certainly wont win the next general election. BUT. They have a very good chance of winning the Euro elections in May and Euro sceptic party's from all over Europe WILL make MASSIVE gains this time around.
If you are happy being governed by a Mafia dominated, corrupt, unelected elite then vote Lib/Lab/Con who will be happy to rubber stamp anything that the successors of Al Capone want. If not vote UKIP."
There are some merits in voting UKIP as it will push all parties to look what issues get votes. If they get into the Euro Parliament they will make arses twitch but they won't be alone as anyone who knows anything about the set up there already know many other countries have euro septic members already we will only be adding a few. They may actually do a good job there they may not but its small minded to think they will be disruptive and not do their job once elected based purely on their personal view. It is as farcical as saying a lawyer will do a bad job of defending a murderer some put personal views aside and do the job they are elected for and you don't know what will happen till they are actually in this position. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
I got an opinion poll phone call today. From the slant of the questions I think it may have been commissioned by the Tories. It was very focused on current policy on education, NHS and immigration. I kept expecting questions about the economy and DWP but none of those.
Lots of questions about how the current policy compares to UKIP.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Gove in charge of education is like me running a nuclear power plant they would both end in meltdown. I know I'm not an expert at that. Gove is so lost in his visions of 1955 schooling that he fails to see he is a idiot.
Grammar Schools I have no problem with, it's the way kids had to take a test at 12 or 13 and it condemned late developers or creative people to secondary modern writing them off to a career of crappy jobs. If that system had still been in place I'd never have got my degree.
I don't agree with UKIP anything founded by Kilroy and lead by Farage is a bad idea. |
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"You are entitled to your opinion. It's not one I can share.
Gove makes me madder than Shapps does and that's saying something.
He certainly divides opinion. I am sure he could be going about it in a better way, but he does seem determined to improve the education for all which can't be a bad thing can it?
That's his job, all politicians especially ministers are great actors, of course he is giving the impression of being determined to improve education, his actions suggest otherwise.
So be inference you are suggesting that he actually wants to make educational standards worse? That maybe the result of the changes he is trying to implement. But to suggest he is deliberately trying to do so is quite an allegation.
Lets just have a quick look at that...
Call me We Are All In It Together Dave camMoron and his mate Georgie Boy have given everyone that earns over 150000 a 5% tax cut while cutting benefits for the poorest in the country, forcing many out of their homes and onto the streets so that their carpetbagging mates can line their pockets. So why would anyone find it hard to believe that Goofy Gove would be doing the same with education. The first thing they did was make higher education so expensive that those from poor backgrounds are now looking at becoming so indebted by university that it is out of their reach. After all illiterate peasants are easier to control than uppity educated prols! "
I can't stand Gove, or the rest of his Tory mates, or most of the opposition, whatever their political persuasion but this myth about University education indebting society is just that, a myth. You come out of University with a £50K 'debt' but look at it closely and it means nothing. You don't start paying it back until you earn over £21K, you interest rate is next to nothing. You don't miss it and it's unlikely you'll ever pay it all back unless you're earning that much per annum that you won't miss it anyway! Who exactly is it putting off? Certainly none of the youngsters I know and certainly not me but then I'll never get close to paying it back anyway! |
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"I can't stand Gove, or the rest of his Tory mates, or most of the opposition, whatever their political persuasion but this myth about University education indebting society is just that, a myth. You come out of University with a £50K 'debt' but look at it closely and it means nothing. You don't start paying it back until you earn over £21K, you interest rate is next to nothing. You don't miss it and it's unlikely you'll ever pay it all back unless you're earning that much per annum that you won't miss it anyway! Who exactly is it putting off? Certainly none of the youngsters I know and certainly not me but then I'll never get close to paying it back anyway!"
Again, please forgive me for contradicting you, but I am afraid you fail to take into account the whole cost of the student loans and tuition fees system.
The simple fact is your 50k dept is a minimum for a 3 year course, for those studying 5 year courses or combination courses the figure will be closer to 100k.
Then as soon as they start earning all lenders know about this debt and will count it in when calculating their credit risk thus making it harder for them to get on the housing ladder.
Of course I could have this wrong, upward economic mobility for the poorest may not be being restricted to pre-Victorian levels and downward economic spiral for the middle classes may not be cost of our 'all in it together big society' that benefits the super-rich multimillionaire Tories and their backers. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Spoke to a very well respected teacher who is retiring this year but has been publically acknowledged as one of the best in his field. Clearly not representative as he is only one voice, but he claimed that Gove was the best thing to happen in education for decades, but he had no chance as the entrenched views of the unions, ofsted etc.
When you say 'unions, ofsted etc.', d'ye mean people who have actual experience of education as opposed to a journalist who used to be a fish gutter?"
Sometimes for progress to be made, the accepted norms and status quo need to be challenged. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Spoke to a very well respected teacher who is retiring this year but has been publically acknowledged as one of the best in his field. Clearly not representative as he is only one voice, but he claimed that Gove was the best thing to happen in education for decades, but he had no chance as the entrenched views of the unions, ofsted etc.
When you say 'unions, ofsted etc.', d'ye mean people who have actual experience of education as opposed to a journalist who used to be a fish gutter?
Sometimes for progress to be made, the accepted norms and status quo need to be challenged. "
....... at the risk of our children's future? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Spoke to a very well respected teacher who is retiring this year but has been publically acknowledged as one of the best in his field. Clearly not representative as he is only one voice, but he claimed that Gove was the best thing to happen in education for decades, but he had no chance as the entrenched views of the unions, ofsted etc.
When you say 'unions, ofsted etc.', d'ye mean people who have actual experience of education as opposed to a journalist who used to be a fish gutter?
Sometimes for progress to be made, the accepted norms and status quo need to be challenged.
....... at the risk of our children's future?"
Depends whether you think the current structure is offering our children a future now. I don't. |
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"I can't stand Gove, or the rest of his Tory mates, or most of the opposition, whatever their political persuasion but this myth about University education indebting society is just that, a myth. You come out of University with a £50K 'debt' but look at it closely and it means nothing. You don't start paying it back until you earn over £21K, you interest rate is next to nothing. You don't miss it and it's unlikely you'll ever pay it all back unless you're earning that much per annum that you won't miss it anyway! Who exactly is it putting off? Certainly none of the youngsters I know and certainly not me but then I'll never get close to paying it back anyway!
Again, please forgive me for contradicting you, but I am afraid you fail to take into account the whole cost of the student loans and tuition fees system.
The simple fact is your 50k dept is a minimum for a 3 year course, for those studying 5 year courses or combination courses the figure will be closer to 100k.
Then as soon as they start earning all lenders know about this debt and will count it in when calculating their credit risk thus making it harder for them to get on the housing ladder.
Of course I could have this wrong, upward economic mobility for the poorest may not be being restricted to pre-Victorian levels and downward economic spiral for the middle classes may not be cost of our 'all in it together big society' that benefits the super-rich multimillionaire Tories and their backers. "
Except a) You don't HAVE to accrue £50k's worth of debt and b) it's not taken into consideration for credit ratings. If it was, it would probably be easier to get a mortgage than if you'd got £10k worth of catalogue credit, which is a far more risky debt. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Spoke to a very well respected teacher who is retiring this year but has been publically acknowledged as one of the best in his field. Clearly not representative as he is only one voice, but he claimed that Gove was the best thing to happen in education for decades, but he had no chance as the entrenched views of the unions, ofsted etc.
When you say 'unions, ofsted etc.', d'ye mean people who have actual experience of education as opposed to a journalist who used to be a fish gutter?
Sometimes for progress to be made, the accepted norms and status quo need to be challenged.
....... at the risk of our children's future?
Depends whether you think the current structure is offering our children a future now. I don't."
It's all smoke and mirrors... Look behind the rhetoric... How have standards actually been raised?
The experts in the field, i.e. educationalists have been calling for reforms for decades... They're still waiting.
He's amended the curriculum...?
Really? By reintroducing a few things at the top end (A/A*) which don't actually need application, nor understanding but simply need to be memorised... Experts have been asking that problem-solving be a cornerstone of mathematics... It's barely received half a page on the gcse syllabus..
Ofsted and the unions haven't gotten in his way at all... Neither have that much influence. Particularly with there being so many unions dividing the profession.
He's done two sensible things....introduced computer science (there was a two year+ campaign by industry bigwigs such as google, m'soft and the bcs, uni of Manchester, Kent and others pretty much forcing him to look into and acknowledge that there was a problem.
He's done little of substance with regards to actually improving the system except made cuts, frozen pay, convert schools into academies (though labour gad initiated that), and grouped some subjects together and called them ebacc subjects..
I'm wondering... What decisions that gove has made have impressed you?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Spoke to a very well respected teacher who is retiring this year but has been publically acknowledged as one of the best in his field. Clearly not representative as he is only one voice, but he claimed that Gove was the best thing to happen in education for decades, but he had no chance as the entrenched views of the unions, ofsted etc.
When you say 'unions, ofsted etc.', d'ye mean people who have actual experience of education as opposed to a journalist who used to be a fish gutter?
Sometimes for progress to be made, the accepted norms and status quo need to be challenged.
....... at the risk of our children's future?
Depends whether you think the current structure is offering our children a future now. I don't.
It's all smoke and mirrors... Look behind the rhetoric... How have standards actually been raised?
The experts in the field, i.e. educationalists have been calling for reforms for decades... They're still waiting.
He's amended the curriculum...?
Really? By reintroducing a few things at the top end (A/A*) which don't actually need application, nor understanding but simply need to be memorised... Experts have been asking that problem-solving be a cornerstone of mathematics... It's barely received half a page on the gcse syllabus..
Ofsted and the unions haven't gotten in his way at all... Neither have that much influence. Particularly with there being so many unions dividing the profession.
He's done two sensible things....introduced computer science (there was a two year+ campaign by industry bigwigs such as google, m'soft and the bcs, uni of Manchester, Kent and others pretty much forcing him to look into and acknowledge that there was a problem.
He's done little of substance with regards to actually improving the system except made cuts, frozen pay, convert schools into academies (though labour gad initiated that), and grouped some subjects together and called them ebacc subjects..
I'm wondering... What decisions that gove has made have impressed you?
"
When the pass mark (c) for gcse maths is roughly 27-35%, so everyone passes, how have standards been raised? |
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"The simple fact is your 50k dept is a minimum for a 3 year course, for those studying 5 year courses or combination courses the figure will be closer to 100k.
Then as soon as they start earning all lenders know about this debt and will count it in when calculating their credit risk thus making it harder for them to get on the housing ladder.
Of course I could have this wrong, upward economic mobility for the poorest may not be being restricted to pre-Victorian levels and downward economic spiral for the middle classes may not be cost of our 'all in it together big society' that benefits the super-rich multimillionaire Tories and their backers.
Except a) You don't HAVE to accrue £50k's worth of debt and b) it's not taken into consideration for credit ratings. If it was, it would probably be easier to get a mortgage than if you'd got £10k worth of catalogue credit, which is a far more risky debt."
You really don't get it do you?
If you come from a deprived background you will not have the financial family backup to reduce or remove the student debt so therefore you HAVE to take on the debt. If you really believe that lenders do not take into account student loan and tuition fee repayments when calculating how much a potential creditor can afford to borrow you really fail to understand how the financial industry works.
Further when I was a student (70's) I got a basic grant, plus a living away from home allowance, plus I could claim traveling costs as I lived over 3 miles from my place of study, plus I could claim traveling costs too and from home every term. On top of that I could sign on for unemployment every summer. Admittedly it was means tested which meant my parents were responsible of quite a lot of it but if I had come from a really poor home I would have been able to study without any financial worries. Why do you and others begrudge this same leg up to our children and grandchildren? Have we all become so self-centered and greedy that we can not see how we are all being manipulated by the filthy rich and powerful for their benefit at our cost? |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"When the pass mark (c) for gcse maths is roughly 27-35%, so everyone passes, how have standards been raised? "
I dont know if what you have said is true or not but it is certainly the perception of many parents.
Yesterday we went to a sixth form Open Day for the (now not so little)Nipper and one of his chosen subjects is History. The A level syllabus for Modern European History appears to be exactly the same syllabus as we did for the JMB O level in the 1970's. How can that be?
There can be little doubt in anyone's mind that education standards have dropped off a cliff in this country and we are way, way behind many of our European counterparts despite spending more on education. The fundamentals that Gove wants to change are fundamental parts of how an education system should work.
No child should leave primary school without knowing their times tables and how to structure a simple sentence. Without those skills, they are doomed to fail in High School because everything is built on those basic skills.
I know a Primary School teacher in her mid twenties who cannot immediately respond to a simple multiplication and her argument is that she does not need to know her times table, she just needs to know how to teach it. I am surely not the only one to remember reciting my times table just before hometime at primary school? It is about the only thing I can still remember about primary school - it was absolutely rammed into us. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"You really don't get it do you?
If you come from a deprived background you will not have the financial family backup to reduce or remove the student debt so therefore you HAVE to take on the debt. If you really believe that lenders do not take into account student loan and tuition fee repayments when calculating how much a potential creditor can afford to borrow you really fail to understand how the financial industry works.
Further when I was a student (70's) I got a basic grant, plus a living away from home allowance, plus I could claim traveling costs as I lived over 3 miles from my place of study, plus I could claim traveling costs too and from home every term. On top of that I could sign on for unemployment every summer. Admittedly it was means tested which meant my parents were responsible of quite a lot of it but if I had come from a really poor home I would have been able to study without any financial worries. Why do you and others begrudge this same leg up to our children and grandchildren? Have we all become so self-centered and greedy that we can not see how we are all being manipulated by the filthy rich and powerful for their benefit at our cost? "
I would not allow my child to go to University unless they were studying for a professional qualification. Going to University these days to study Business & Media or other such nonsensical poop is plainly stupid.
Times have changed and in my opinion it is only right that people take an informed decision about their future prospects and take on some financial responsibility. If an 18 year old wants to be a pilot, it will cost around £40,000 - £50,000 and about the same time as a three year University Course. Why should the trainee pilot pay £50,000 and the University student pay nothing? |
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"The simple fact is your 50k dept is a minimum for a 3 year course, for those studying 5 year courses or combination courses the figure will be closer to 100k.
Then as soon as they start earning all lenders know about this debt and will count it in when calculating their credit risk thus making it harder for them to get on the housing ladder.
Of course I could have this wrong, upward economic mobility for the poorest may not be being restricted to pre-Victorian levels and downward economic spiral for the middle classes may not be cost of our 'all in it together big society' that benefits the super-rich multimillionaire Tories and their backers.
Except a) You don't HAVE to accrue £50k's worth of debt and b) it's not taken into consideration for credit ratings. If it was, it would probably be easier to get a mortgage than if you'd got £10k worth of catalogue credit, which is a far more risky debt.
You really don't get it do you?
If you come from a deprived background you will not have the financial family backup to reduce or remove the student debt so therefore you HAVE to take on the debt. If you really believe that lenders do not take into account student loan and tuition fee repayments when calculating how much a potential creditor can afford to borrow you really fail to understand how the financial industry works.
Further when I was a student (70's) I got a basic grant, plus a living away from home allowance, plus I could claim traveling costs as I lived over 3 miles from my place of study, plus I could claim traveling costs too and from home every term. On top of that I could sign on for unemployment every summer. Admittedly it was means tested which meant my parents were responsible of quite a lot of it but if I had come from a really poor home I would have been able to study without any financial worries. Why do you and others begrudge this same leg up to our children and grandchildren? Have we all become so self-centered and greedy that we can not see how we are all being manipulated by the filthy rich and powerful for their benefit at our cost? "
I'm studying Sociology and Criminology for Christ's sake, of course I get it! All study these days is the class system, why do you think I'm such a bloody Marxist?
Do some research, financial institutions do NOT take student debt into consideration when credit scoring. A family background or their financial status has no bearing whatsoever on whether the debt gets paid.
You don't start posting it back until you're earning over £21k, you then pay it back at 3% plus inflation of your salary over that amount, directly out of your salary, therefore you're not paying tax in it, if your salary drops below £21k, you stop paying, you pay it back for a maximum of 30 years from your graduation date, then it gets written off, if it's not all paid back.
Next, Einstein?
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Two of our daughter's have Student Loans of over £30k, the youngest will have about £45k by the time she's done 3 years...none of them are in the slightest bit worried about their loans and the two eldest have never had a problem getting mortgages, loans or any other kind of finance; and they're both teachers, which closes the circle quite neatly. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
No one has mentioned it so I will. Gove and his wife are sending their daughter to a state secondary school.
This is a first and should be applauded. Maybe he will find more to support in the teaching and learning in the state sector now? |
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"Two of our daughter's have Student Loans of over £30k, the youngest will have about £45k by the time she's done 3 years...none of them are in the slightest bit worried about their loans and the two eldest have never had a problem getting mortgages, loans or any other kind of finance; and they're both teachers, which closes the circle quite neatly."
similar to our son and his wife, both have student loans to repay and have last year brought their 1st home with no credit issue's whatsoever on the mortgage front..
whilst they would be idealy prefer to not have the student debt, they are not worried about it in their day to day lives..
ditto with our daughter who is going back to do her masters this year and will incur futher debt..
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"No one has mentioned it so I will. Gove and his wife are sending their daughter to a state secondary school.
This is a first and should be applauded. Maybe he will find more to support in the teaching and learning in the state sector now?"
unusual and yes a good thing but wonder why he did'nt use the free school route ..? |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"No one has mentioned it so I will. Gove and his wife are sending their daughter to a state secondary school.
This is a first and should be applauded. Maybe he will find more to support in the teaching and learning in the state sector now?
unusual and yes a good thing but wonder why he did'nt use the free school route ..?"
I'm choosing not to analyse that too deeply today. I hope that he and his wife just chose the best state school for their daughter and it turns out to be a comp. |
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"No one has mentioned it so I will. Gove and his wife are sending their daughter to a state secondary school.
This is a first and should be applauded. Maybe he will find more to support in the teaching and learning in the state sector now?
unusual and yes a good thing but wonder why he did'nt use the free school route ..?
I'm choosing not to analyse that too deeply today. I hope that he and his wife just chose the best state school for their daughter and it turns out to be a comp."
would agree and thats without a hangover..
its a start.. |
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By *athnBobCouple
over a year ago
sandwell |
At the end of the day it is the parents fault the the education system has gone down hill.
They wanted a measure of good schools and bad schools
The government introduced league tables.
Schools now compete to go up these league tables (note I do not say to be the best)
They do this by finding ways to beat the system and earn extra credits (Year 11s doing a general studies course in one week that is worth a GCSE for instance)
Schools are no longer about education of the young. Passing exams (not the same thing) is now the priority along with getting through Ofsted by generating masses of paperwork. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"No one has mentioned it so I will. Gove and his wife are sending their daughter to a state secondary school.
This is a first and should be applauded. Maybe he will find more to support in the teaching and learning in the state sector now?"
The Grey Coat Hospital Comprehensive School's catchment area boasts house prices of an average detached house in that area costing £6,017,200; the average terrace selling for £3.1 million and the average flat costing £1 million.
State school it may be, Grange Hill it ain't. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"No one has mentioned it so I will. Gove and his wife are sending their daughter to a state secondary school.
This is a first and should be applauded. Maybe he will find more to support in the teaching and learning in the state sector now?
The Grey Coat Hospital Comprehensive School's catchment area boasts house prices of an average detached house in that area costing £6,017,200; the average terrace selling for £3.1 million and the average flat costing £1 million.
State school it may be, Grange Hill it ain't."
No but London property prices and catchment areas aren't as clear cut as that. We do have social housing in all catchment areas.
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"after 12days of deliberating. studying all relevant information,asking. public and private opinions it has came to my notice that Gove is one of thee cunts of the twenty first century ."
Why did it take twelve days? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"At the end of the day it is the parents fault the the education system has gone down hill.
They wanted a measure of good schools and bad schools
The government introduced league tables.
Schools now compete to go up these league tables (note I do not say to be the best)
They do this by finding ways to beat the system and earn extra credits (Year 11s doing a general studies course in one week that is worth a GCSE for instance)
Schools are no longer about education of the young. Passing exams (not the same thing) is now the priority along with getting through Ofsted by generating masses of paperwork. "
Funnily, Finland don't have league tables...teachers are relatively autonomous...particularly at lower primary...and they've apparently got one of the best school systems in the world.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"after 12days of deliberating. studying all relevant information,asking. public and private opinions it has came to my notice that Gove is one of thee cunts of the twenty first century .
Why did it take twelve days?"
Indeed... I suspect he was being thorough which is fair enough |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"after 12days of deliberating. studying all relevant information,asking. public and private opinions it has came to my notice that Gove is one of thee cunts of the twenty first century .
Why did it take twelve days?"
Indeed... I suspect he was being thorough which is fair enough |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"after 12days of deliberating. studying all relevant information,asking. public and private opinions it has came to my notice that Gove is one of thee cunts of the twenty first century .
Why did it take twelve days?"
There were lots of candidates. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"No one has mentioned it so I will. Gove and his wife are sending their daughter to a state secondary school.
This is a first and should be applauded. Maybe he will find more to support in the teaching and learning in the state sector now?
The Grey Coat Hospital Comprehensive School's catchment area boasts house prices of an average detached house in that area costing £6,017,200; the average terrace selling for £3.1 million and the average flat costing £1 million.
State school it may be, Grange Hill it ain't.
No but London property prices and catchment areas aren't as clear cut as that. We do have social housing in all catchment areas.
"
Glasgow has similar issues so oversubscribed schools use interviews to select the pupils they want - or rather exclude the ones they don't. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No one has mentioned it so I will. Gove and his wife are sending their daughter to a state secondary school.
This is a first and should be applauded. Maybe he will find more to support in the teaching and learning in the state sector now?
The Grey Coat Hospital Comprehensive School's catchment area boasts house prices of an average detached house in that area costing £6,017,200; the average terrace selling for £3.1 million and the average flat costing £1 million.
State school it may be, Grange Hill it ain't.
No but London property prices and catchment areas aren't as clear cut as that. We do have social housing in all catchment areas.
"
In Birmingham/Solihull we have Tudor Grange academy... It already has a very particular intake but since academisation, has become even more selective. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So a 20 year old with 17 GCSE's and 2 A levels thinks "Barraco Barmer" is the president of the UK. and some people still think the education system doesn't need reforming. "
Perhaps we are the 51st State, just we don't get legislation with representation... have a strange urge to go have a nice cup of tea in Boston, anyone fancy a meet in Lincolnshire
p.s. A high IQ is not a guarantee of any intelligence, I remember well visiting a University Student house for a party to find a dozen of the "finest minds" sat in the dark and quiet as no one knew how to change a fuse. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So a 20 year old with 17 GCSE's and 2 A levels thinks "Barraco Barmer" is the president of the UK. and some people still think the education system doesn't need reforming. "
Couldn't resist a second one...
That's nothing, about 2 Million Londoners think Boris Johnson is a politician, the other 4 Million are tourists and know he is the entertainment |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"after 12days of deliberating. studying all relevant information,asking. public and private opinions it has came to my notice that Gove is one of thee cunts of the twenty first century ."
may we ask the other 2 who make up the top 3? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So a 20 year old with 17 GCSE's and 2 A levels thinks "Barraco Barmer" is the president of the UK. and some people still think the education system doesn't need reforming. "
Not that I disagree with your implicit assertion that educational reform is necessary...
However, seems like your example spent too much time studying and not enough interacting with the world around him.
A balance is necessary.
Presently, we've had not much from the current regime but the same old repackaged. In fact, speaking to maths teachers recently, they said the additional content adds little value since students will simply be required to remember some additional facts for e.g how sin30 is derived.. Their ability to apply, synthesise or evaluate won't be tested. There are no controlled assessments in Mathematics, very little problem solving, and thus very few students leave school with genuine mathematical capability...because the C grade takes precedence.
In fact, most GCSE exams require very little beyond recall (among the lowest skills on Bloom's taxonomy), particularly mathematics, which I've mentioned before, requires a ridiculously low percentage for a C grade pass - 27-35%.
The first thing needed when reforming anything is to have an accurate picture of where we are... But that would mean risking the results dropping, which would be quite damaging for any politician, so they continue the facade...
“We want one class of persons to have a liberal education, and we want another class of persons, a very much larger class of necessity in every society, to forgo the privilege of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks.”
Woodrow Wilson |
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I don't know if standards are dropping or not, but I do know that I had to learn integral and differential calculus for 'O' level maths where it is now undergraduate level maths...
I also know that when I took my 'O' and 'A' levels that the grades awarded to me were based on my position on a bell curve rather than an absolute %.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"He might be a bit ham fisted, and without doubt he has made mistakes, but he seems to genuinely want to improve kids education in this country which has to be commendable."
Maybe, but he hasn't been education secretary for a while and has now been made secretary of state for Justice |
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"Now Justice Secretary. Scary stuff."
I'm terrified. The Conservative party just sold 70% of probation. Leaving unqualified and inexperienced private groups managing medium and low risk offenders. With this dimwit in charge who the hell knows are going to end up supervising the high risk offenders. Zippy and Bungle maybe. |
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By *oo hotCouple
over a year ago
North West |
"Now Justice Secretary. Scary stuff.
I'm terrified. The Conservative party just sold 70% of probation. Leaving unqualified and inexperienced private groups managing medium and low risk offenders. With this dimwit in charge who the hell knows are going to end up supervising the high risk offenders. Zippy and Bungle maybe."
Dimwit he most certainly is not. Given a task he is like a dog with a bone and will complete the task. He may have faults and you may disagree with his politics but I do think we need the people in power to actually achieve things rather than just paddle along with the flow for five years.
The conservatives have been elected so we just need to monitor what happens and stop trying to predict what might happen like those buffoons in London yesterday. |
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I'll remind you of this when G4S are monitoring high risk sex offenders. Serco are already making probation officers redundant and monitoring low and medium risk sex offenders with computers and not conversations. But hey the tories are great at covering up paedophiles, so I guess it's just to be expected. |
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"He has completely fucked up education. I should know. I work there. "
Me too, but my take is that it is the Unions at fault for rejecting any sensible improvement whether it comes from the right or the left.
This year our daughter will get A* in all her GCSEs except one, because the new teacher lied about which subject she could teach and the Union wouldn't let the school sack and replace her.
This is why, when it comes to the public service, we need government who puts the public first, not the Unions.
Mr ddc
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
This year our daughter will get A* in all her GCSEs except one, because the new teacher lied about which subject she could teach and the Union wouldn't let the school sack and replace her.
This is why, when it comes to the public service, we need government who puts the public first, not the Unions.
Mr ddc
"
The union can't stop a school from sacking the teacher if there is sufficient evidence of wrongdoing. Employment law/contractual obligations would trump a union defence if it was as simple as that. I've been privy to similar cases and the employee is usually given a compromise package and both part ways..
Anyway, with regards to Gove...his poor education policies speak for themselves....
The one thing he has to his credit was that he wanted to add rigour to the curriculum (though this was something unions and industrial leaders were campaigning for anyway) but the trouble is, though the content may become more challenging, the number of children passing won't decrease.... Grade boundaries will simply change...
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By *ourbonKissMan
over a year ago
a land up north..... of leicester |
"fucking hate the guy
almost as bad as jeremy hunt"
I take it that you didn't vote Tory either then.... I'm struggling to understand just exactly who did, everyone I speak to went for Labour |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Very labour here..but I would always think most swingers are labour"
Very conservative here , but unlike most Tories we don't keep quiet about it .
This is why you don't see many people saying they are conservative , the labour supporters make much more noise and love to shoot down the Tories .
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By *ourbonKissMan
over a year ago
a land up north..... of leicester |
"Very labour here..but I would always think most swingers are labour
Very conservative here , but unlike most Tories we don't keep quiet about it .
This is why you don't see many people saying they are conservative , the labour supporters make much more noise and love to shoot down the Tories .
"
tis true |
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By *ourbonKissMan
over a year ago
a land up north..... of leicester |
"He's far from being a dimwit. His problem is his belief in himself as a superior thinker to the extent he needn't consult with anybody else's thoughts."
tis also true and why C U Next Tuesday comes to mind when he opens his mouth |
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By *ourbonKissMan
over a year ago
a land up north..... of leicester |
"He's far from being a dimwit. His problem is his belief in himself as a superior thinker to the extent he needn't consult with anybody else's thoughts."
tis also true and why C U Next Tuesday comes to mind when he opens his mouth |
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By *B9 QueenWoman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"He has completely fucked up education. I should know. I work there.
Me too, but my take is that it is the Unions at fault for rejecting any sensible improvement whether it comes from the right or the left.
This year our daughter will get A* in all her GCSEs except one, because the new teacher lied about which subject she could teach and the Union wouldn't let the school sack and replace her.
This is why, when it comes to the public service, we need government who puts the public first, not the Unions.
Mr ddc
"
So based on ONE single incident you extrapolate that the unions fucked up the entire system countrywide? Interesting if fallacious premise.
Incidentally, Gove never ever ever met with the unions even when lying about doing so.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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He's a bit like Pickles is with Local Government, in that he seemed to start from the position that teachers were all shit. That gets the profession's back up to start with so then they're never going to work with you even though some quietly agree with some of the reforms being proposed.
In my view the free school and academy movement is a pet project taken too far. The evidence just doesn't hold that it is improving anything, and some of the things going on in schools that have become mini-fiefdoms with no local oversight (governors and heads awarding contracts to their own companies etc) are an abuse of public funds. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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What he did very cleverly with the unions was allowed them to make the argument against themselves. They failed to argue for education and instead choose to fight on pay and conditions at a time when the public weren't willing to support it. Teachers should be just as angry at their unions as they are at Gove.
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"
So based on ONE single incident you extrapolate that the unions fucked up the entire system countrywide? Interesting if fallacious premise.
Incidentally, Gove never ever ever met with the unions even when lying about doing so.
"
Good Lord no, not just one example, 20 years of experience
I even voted for Blair twice because I didn't want the teaching unions dealt with the way Maggie dealt with the miners. I had hoped that someone who thought education was important could work with the unions in order to effect change. But instead we continued to slide down international league tables, trapping thousands of poor youngsters in poverty while Labour minister after Labour minister acknowledged their failure and sent their children to private-sector schools.
And no, you cannot sack them a week after employing them. The union, and the tribunal simply point to the fact that by employing them you ackowledged they were good enough, so all you can do is retrain.
That said, it is worth stating that the majority of teachers are hard working, inspirational and damn good at their jobs. If we took the politics out of our schools, they'd be amongst the best in the world. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I have been working in the criminal justice sector for a while and have seen all the changes going through, this privatisation is being pushed through despite warnings from civil service oversight committees that it cannot work. Gove has been put in place because of his absolut belief in his own ability to push it through. The problem is that he is actually inept, with no ideas of his own. He is driven by ideology at the expense of rationality.
I see the system collapsing soon, leading to yet another radical shakeup at public expense. |
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Dreadful man. How much has your local authority lost, from £billions given away to free schools? All tax payer purchased buildings and land was given away, as the deeds were a freebie to them.
Teaching done by unqualified staff - what does it show about their respect for the masses? An overpromoted dolt. |
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