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Black and white
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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not photography but life!
Is it? Or is it not?
What situations are really black and white, clear-cut and leaving no room for negotiation or interpretation? Examples of those? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Paedophilia. No grey areas there. It's wrong. Period. No argument."
Can understand where you are coming from, totally and unreservedly.
However, could I ask you whether you are able to see the perpetrator as both, a perpetrator and possibly a victim of his own circumstances? I am only curious when asking the delicate question. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Paedophilia. No grey areas there. It's wrong. Period. No argument.
Can understand where you are coming from, totally and unreservedly.
However, could I ask you whether you are able to see the perpetrator as both, a perpetrator and possibly a victim of his own circumstances? I am only curious when asking the delicate question. "
No, I can't. A paedophile knows that what they are doing is wrong but still does it anyway. I'd ask anyone who's child was attacked by a paedo who then used mental illnbess as a defence whether they would accept that plea or not. I wouldn't. I'd rip his arm off and beat him to death with it. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Paedophilia. No grey areas there. It's wrong. Period. No argument.
Can understand where you are coming from, totally and unreservedly.
However, could I ask you whether you are able to see the perpetrator as both, a perpetrator and possibly a victim of his own circumstances? I am only curious when asking the delicate question.
No, I can't. A paedophile knows that what they are doing is wrong but still does it anyway. I'd ask anyone who's child was attacked by a paedo who then used mental illnbess as a defence whether they would accept that plea or not. I wouldn't. I'd rip his arm off and beat him to death with it."
I guess it is that question of culpability, whether somebody is responsible or not for their actions. For me, it is wrong ,too as it is the biggest betrayal of trust - yet I am still able to see some mitigating circumstances if the perpetrator for example has been a victim of sexual abuse himself. |
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While it is true that many Paedophiles were victims of abuse themselves in their past, I do not see that as any justification for then going on to abuse children themselves.
I favour chemical castration for those convicted of paedophilia, of course when all avenues of possible legal appeal against their verdicts are exhausted.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"While it is true that many Paedophiles were victims of abuse themselves in their past, I do not see that as any justification for then going on to abuse children themselves.
I favour chemical castration for those convicted of paedophilia, of course when all avenues of possible legal appeal against their verdicts are exhausted.
Agreed, not a justification merely an explanation.
"
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"Paedophilia. No grey areas there. It's wrong. Period. No argument."
See even here I see shades of grey - there are many kids in sexual relationships with slightly older kids and if a push comes to a shove they can and are charged and remain on a sex offenders register for life. To me that doesn’t seem fair as in most instances the sex is consensual.
Do completely agree in relation to instance where the children involved are non consenting, groomed, taken advantage off to name but a few instances…
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"While it is true that many Paedophiles were victims of abuse themselves in their past, I do not see that as any justification for then going on to abuse children themselves.
I favour chemical castration for those convicted of paedophilia, of course when all avenues of possible legal appeal against their verdicts are exhausted.
Agreed, not a justification merely an explanation.
"
Sorry never meant you were justifying it darling...... |
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I do think the Sexual Offenders Register needs to be looked at again and maybe tweaked, for example a 17 year old boy in a sexual relationship with his childhood sweetheart who may be 15 years of age....
I find these cases and subsequent registering the boy as a sexual offender on a register to be questionable. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Paedophilia. No grey areas there. It's wrong. Period. No argument.
See even here I see shades of grey - there are many kids in sexual relationships with slightly older kids and if a push comes to a shove they can and are charged and remain on a sex offenders register for life. To me that doesn’t seem fair as in most instances the sex is consensual.
Do completely agree in relation to instance where the children involved are non consenting, groomed, taken advantage off to name but a few instances…
"
That is such a great point, Wishy as it makes a 15 year old girl being in a relationship with a 17 year old lad committing an offense even if they are in a loving relationship. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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My understanding of paedophilia is sexual feelings of adults directed towards children. I don't see a 17y/o boy as an adult and it doesn't come under my radar of paedophiliac behaviour. Underage sex is different to paedophilia and under the law a 17y/o lad having sex with a 15y/o girl is guilty of underage sex, not paedophilia.
Hope that makes sense. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"My understanding of paedophilia is sexual feelings of adults directed towards children. I don't see a 17y/o boy as an adult and it doesn't come under my radar of paedophiliac behaviour. Underage sex is different to paedophilia and under the law a 17y/o lad having sex with a 15y/o girl is guilty of underage sex, not paedophilia.
Hope that makes sense. "
And I would agree with you there. The law sadly does not.
Anyway, what other things besides this topics are you aware of that are black and white or grey? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Hmmmm
I personally think that only life and death are black and white.
The rest is so multi coloured..it hursts my eyes  "
Life and death have never been black and white.
If they were there would be no religion! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Hmmmm
I personally think that only life and death are black and white.
The rest is so multi coloured..it hursts my eyes
Life and death have never been black and white.
If they were there would be no religion!"
Great point !!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anyway, what other things besides this topics are you aware of that are black and white or grey? "
Hitmen. Assassins. Contract killers. Killing someone purely for money. No thought about why a person deserves to die or the impact on their families. Surely that must be black and white. Wrong. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Anyway, what other things besides this topics are you aware of that are black and white or grey?
Hitmen. Assassins. Contract killers. Killing someone purely for money. No thought about why a person deserves to die or the impact on their families. Surely that must be black and white. Wrong."
Are you saying that they are wrong in what they are doing or that it is wrong to assume that that is a black and white issue? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anyway, what other things besides this topics are you aware of that are black and white or grey?
Hitmen. Assassins. Contract killers. Killing someone purely for money. No thought about why a person deserves to die or the impact on their families. Surely that must be black and white. Wrong.
Are you saying that they are wrong in what they are doing or that it is wrong to assume that that is a black and white issue? "
Um.... er... it's worng what they do, there's no defence for it. I think that's what you mean by black and white. Sorry if I've got it confuddled.  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Anyway, what other things besides this topics are you aware of that are black and white or grey?
Hitmen. Assassins. Contract killers. Killing someone purely for money. No thought about why a person deserves to die or the impact on their families. Surely that must be black and white. Wrong.
Are you saying that they are wrong in what they are doing or that it is wrong to assume that that is a black and white issue?
Um.... er... it's worng what they do, there's no defence for it. I think that's what you mean by black and white. Sorry if I've got it confuddled. "
Thanks for clarifying - I thought it was what you meant but wanted to be sure.. also I tend to agree a bit there, there are some "jobs" which can be considered "immoral"? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"so if a child was molested by a paedophile and the childs father could not 'rip his arm off and beat him to death with it'would he be wrong to hire an assassin to kill him instead?"
Yes, but I doubt he'd see it that way, and I doubt I would either if it was me in that situation. Guess it isn't so black & white after all. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"so if a child was molested by a paedophile and the childs father could not 'rip his arm off and beat him to death with it'would he be wrong to hire an assassin to kill him instead?"
Wow, on the surface it may look like an unrealistic situation but there is actually a real issue here...
Do two wrongs make a right? For me... they do not - I would try and forgive but I can understand that may may not be easy and possible and it so depends on the seriousness of the first "wrong" and how it was perceived and many more factors? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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When the sun is up it's daytime and when it isn't it's night time. That's black and white innit? No room for manoevering there, I think. Even in the polar regions it's daytime for 6 months and night time for 6 months. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
Forum Mod |
"When the sun is up it's daytime and when it isn't it's night time. That's black and white innit? No room for manoevering there, I think. Even in the polar regions it's daytime for 6 months and night time for 6 months. "
What about a total eclipse though? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"When the sun is up it's daytime and when it isn't it's night time. That's black and white innit? No room for manoevering there, I think. Even in the polar regions it's daytime for 6 months and night time for 6 months.
What about a total eclipse though?"
The sun is still up though. It's just the moon muscling in on the action lol |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"When the sun is up it's daytime and when it isn't it's night time. That's black and white innit? No room for manoevering there, I think. Even in the polar regions it's daytime for 6 months and night time for 6 months.
What about a total eclipse though?
The sun is still up though. It's just the moon muscling in on the action lol "
Me being too quick on the old finger again...
The sun being considered male(sol) and the moon being female (luna),at least in Latin , draw whatever conclusions you wish from this lol |
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I would suggest there are plenty of examples of black and white, but may not be called black and white for example:
Binary
Light Switch (ok unless you have a dimmer!)
bungee jump (go or dont)
Some are decisions and for me the most important thing is to look beyond when you think there are only two options, and you may find others present themselves.
Face everything with an open mind, and dont limit yourself and you open yourself to a world of possibilities |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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One of the most haunting things I've ever seen that will probably stay with me all my life was people jumping from the 100th floors of the World Trade Centre. What a choice to be faced with: jump and die, or stay and die. If that wasn't black & white I don't know what is.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Paedophilia. No grey areas there. It's wrong. Period. No argument.
Can understand where you are coming from, totally and unreservedly.
However, could I ask you whether you are able to see the perpetrator as both, a perpetrator and possibly a victim of his own circumstances? I am only curious when asking the delicate question.
No, I can't. A paedophile knows that what they are doing is wrong but still does it anyway. I'd ask anyone who's child was attacked by a paedo who then used mental illnbess as a defence whether they would accept that plea or not. I wouldn't. I'd rip his arm off and beat him to death with it."
I remember a case where one begged not to be released at the end of his sentence as he knew he would do it again, and really didn't want to do but found the urge too much. |
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"Paedophilia. No grey areas there. It's wrong. Period. No argument."
You'd think so wouldn't you, but there is a man being tried in Gloucester for blindfolding and tying up an 8 year old girl and raping her, on a number of occasions over 2005 and 2006. He said he was only playing a game, putting things in her mouth and stopped when she complained to him and her mother that she didn't like it. It wasn't til years later that she realised she'd been raped and reported it. So the question is, why didn't her mother do something???
There's some very sick people out there.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Paedophilia. No grey areas there. It's wrong. Period. No argument.
Can understand where you are coming from, totally and unreservedly.
However, could I ask you whether you are able to see the perpetrator as both, a perpetrator and possibly a victim of his own circumstances? I am only curious when asking the delicate question.
No, I can't. A paedophile knows that what they are doing is wrong but still does it anyway. I'd ask anyone who's child was attacked by a paedo who then used mental illnbess as a defence whether they would accept that plea or not. I wouldn't. I'd rip his arm off and beat him to death with it.
I remember a case where one begged not to be released at the end of his sentence as he knew he would do it again, and really didn't want to do but found the urge too much."
He should have been castrated. Hung by his testicles would be better but medical castration makes for a poor alternative. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Paedophilia. No grey areas there. It's wrong. Period. No argument.
Can understand where you are coming from, totally and unreservedly.
However, could I ask you whether you are able to see the perpetrator as both, a perpetrator and possibly a victim of his own circumstances? I am only curious when asking the delicate question.
No, I can't. A paedophile knows that what they are doing is wrong but still does it anyway. I'd ask anyone who's child was attacked by a paedo who then used mental illnbess as a defence whether they would accept that plea or not. I wouldn't. I'd rip his arm off and beat him to death with it.
I remember a case where one begged not to be released at the end of his sentence as he knew he would do it again, and really didn't want to do but found the urge too much.
He should have been castrated. Hung by his testicles would be better but medical castration makes for a poor alternative."
I agree.
tell ya what though, I don;t know what I would hate being the most, the victim or the abuser.
imagine having that urge, it must be awful, if of course it is an urge rather than just spiteful hatred. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"One of the most haunting things I've ever seen that will probably stay with me all my life was people jumping from the 100th floors of the World Trade Centre. What a choice to be faced with: jump and die, or stay and die. If that wasn't black & white I don't know what is. "
Yes, I remember where I was, where I saw the dreadful events unfolding and that image will also stay with me, indelibly. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Back to my black and white question - and our innate need to label people.
Do we need really to label everything?
Is a person who committed an offence always a criminal or do they deserve the chance for a fresh start once they served their sentence?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Back to my black and white question - and our innate need to label people.
Do we need really to label everything?
Is a person who committed an offence always a criminal or do they deserve the chance for a fresh start once they served their sentence?
"
I think it’s a bit of bad terminology you chose there. Unless you have a reason for pursuing a black and white issue. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Back to my black and white question - and our innate need to label people.
Do we need really to label everything?
Is a person who committed an offence always a criminal or do they deserve the chance for a fresh start once they served their sentence?
I think it’s a bit of bad terminology you chose there. Unless you have a reason for pursuing a black and white issue."
I take your point - it was in no way relating to racial issues but merely a matter of depicting a certain tunnel visioned, binary way of thinking.
Can you suggest a better terminology to describe what I am referring to? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I don't think you got it wrong at all hon. There is a popular saying that goes, "Life isn't always black & white." So all you've done is ask people to expand on that and post what they think IS black & white.
It seems that we can't even mention those two colours now for fear of being accused of having some sort of ulterior motive. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't think you got it wrong at all hon. There is a popular saying that goes, "Life isn't always black & white." So all you've done is ask people to expand on that and post what they think IS black & white.
It seems that we can't even mention those two colours now for fear of being accused of having some sort of ulterior motive."
There are many many alternatives that could be used that’s all. And I think most here are well aware of your views on many political issues over the last few days. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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But life really never is black and white, the shades of grey are endless .. 35 yrs ago I got a guy to believe I was 17 when I was 13, it was my fault not his, yet police wanted to prosecute him. I wanted to be a grown up and have abandoned sex which my mother and father had promoted to me in the last year by their behaviour as what had made them liberated.
I wasn't ready for that relationship but entered into to, in fact began it! He was no predator!
The predators need to be removed, but those innocents that believe a well educated, smart, savvy kid ...
Mmmm So very many shades of grey! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We evolved to make sense of the world in binary terms (black/white, up/down, yes/no) because pausing to consider greyness wasn't helpful to survival. Running at the merest flash of orange gives a better chance of not being eaten by a tiger, even though it could just be a flicker of a butterfly wing.
Unfortunately we still have a tendency to label things in very rigid ways, and it's one of my pet hates because nobody really takes the time to step back, observe situations and take in all the facts to make truly objective decisions, and age is the worst example of that. We have all kinds of laws and rules where people of a certain age are allowed/prohibited from doing certain things regardless of whether they are or aren't responsible/capable, simply because it's easier for admin and bureaucrats to file and label us and tell us what to do. The thread about sex/paedophilia is a good example because we don't become adults the moment we have a certain birthday, we all develop at different rates both physically and mentally. It's not unreasonable for proper judgements to be made on INDIVIDUALS now that we have technology which can speed up the organisation of information, but instead it's used to make LESS admin staff do MORE box ticking instead of giving them the extra time to STOP and THINK about the PERSON whose LIFE they are about to affect. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Wow what great posts - I am so pleased I am not the only one who does not believe in binary (black and white) thinking - it does not reflect the real world and is unhelpful, although I do understand that there are times when there have to be yes/no decisions for example on whether or not to medicate for a condition, whether or not to allow a life support to be switched off etc etc.
I wonder what people think one could do to resolve situations which are not clear cut? How do you give somebody or yourself space for a difficult, not straight forward decision? |
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I do remember a case a few years ago, and a very focussed my mind on greyness. An elderly lady could have treatment that could cure her, and without she would die.
She chose to die, but her family decided behind her back to save her life.
Simple dilemma, however she was Jewish and the treatment was developed in the camps, so even simple yes/no have grey areas.
For information, she ended up taking the hospital and doctor to court for saving her life against her wishes - and won (she gave all the money to charity). |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Wow what great posts - I am so pleased I am not the only one who does not believe in binary (black and white) thinking - it does not reflect the real world and is unhelpful, although I do understand that there are times when there have to be yes/no decisions for example on whether or not to medicate for a condition, whether or not to allow a life support to be switched off etc etc.
I wonder what people think one could do to resolve situations which are not clear cut? How do you give somebody or yourself space for a difficult, not straight forward decision? "
I've been racking my brains to come up with a black & white situation, and I think I've found one, but not in the conventional sense .... A Courtroom!
How many times have we witnessed or experienced a belligerent barrister preventing someone from giving anything but a Yes or No answer. And as we've established, a true yes or no situation is extremely rare as there is almost always mitigating circumstances. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Wow what great posts - I am so pleased I am not the only one who does not believe in binary (black and white) thinking - it does not reflect the real world and is unhelpful, although I do understand that there are times when there have to be yes/no decisions for example on whether or not to medicate for a condition, whether or not to allow a life support to be switched off etc etc.
I wonder what people think one could do to resolve situations which are not clear cut? How do you give somebody or yourself space for a difficult, not straight forward decision?
I've been racking my brains to come up with a black & white situation, and I think I've found one, but not in the conventional sense .... A Courtroom!
How many times have we witnessed or experienced a belligerent barrister preventing someone from giving anything but a Yes or No answer. And as we've established, a true yes or no situation is extremely rare as there is almost always mitigating circumstances."
That is my point really - I am struggling to see many truly clear cut situations - which links in with not judging people based on one's perception of them. It is often very difficulty if not impossible to have ALL relevant information |
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"Wow what great posts - I am so pleased I am not the only one who does not believe in binary (black and white) thinking - it does not reflect the real world and is unhelpful, although I do understand that there are times when there have to be yes/no decisions for example on whether or not to medicate for a condition, whether or not to allow a life support to be switched off etc etc.
I wonder what people think one could do to resolve situations which are not clear cut? How do you give somebody or yourself space for a difficult, not straight forward decision?
I've been racking my brains to come up with a black & white situation, and I think I've found one, but not in the conventional sense .... A Courtroom!
How many times have we witnessed or experienced a belligerent barrister preventing someone from giving anything but a Yes or No answer. And as we've established, a true yes or no situation is extremely rare as there is almost always mitigating circumstances.
That is my point really - I am struggling to see many truly clear cut situations - which links in with not judging people based on one's perception of them. It is often very difficulty if not impossible to have ALL relevant information "
the humble computer is one it makes value judements to prescribed formula's about people based on the thoughts of boole and boolean logic....is it effective nope ...but we insist on pigeon holing people using its talent to be indiscriminate ...sad eh ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Wow what great posts - I am so pleased I am not the only one who does not believe in binary (black and white) thinking - it does not reflect the real world and is unhelpful, although I do understand that there are times when there have to be yes/no decisions for example on whether or not to medicate for a condition, whether or not to allow a life support to be switched off etc etc.
I wonder what people think one could do to resolve situations which are not clear cut? How do you give somebody or yourself space for a difficult, not straight forward decision? "
I've been racking my brains to come up with a black & white situation, and I think I've found one, but not in the conventional sense .... A Courtroom!
How many times have we witnessed or experienced a belligerent barrister preventing someone from giving anything but a Yes or No answer. And as we've established, a true yes or no situation is extremely rare as there is almost always mitigating circumstances."
Sorry ton rehearse it all, but that has not been my experience. My experience has been to accompany vulnerable clients in mostly Family Courts, sometimes Mags, but also to clerk in County Courts. What you see on the telly isn't what happens. Miscarriages of justice are far less than they were 10 or more years ago, although I don't deny they can sometimes happen. However, I can say from experience that more often than not the right conclusion is arrived at for more often than not. Judges know that they are under scrutiny and trust me they often hate smart-ass briefs.
However, have to concede that too many are upper-middle class, middle minded and far past middle age. When they reflect the population, a better place for all of us. x |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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That is part of the problem, we all bring our different life experience to the forums and that is why we are different in how we see the world. Nobody is entirely wrong or right for that matter. No, I am not wishy washy - just learnt in life that things are not always what they seem at first glance, that different people have different views all of which can be valid simultaneously. |
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