FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > United We Stand? Independent Scotland a Good or Bad Idea 2
United We Stand? Independent Scotland a Good or Bad Idea 2
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"Fabio - the Treasury Dept report to the Govt concluded that the financial risk to the UK by Scotland not paying off her portion of the National Debt was smaller than the risk to the UK of entering a Currency Union. I cant see that the UK would block Scotland's application to the EU - its potentially difficult enough already given Spain & Cyprus' stance on the issue." Agreed. Point 1 is simple maths and re point 2 - there's always someone who'll do your dirty work for you. | |||
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"I am still waiting to hear something from the yes side on this question..... a) "whats plan b" for currency if the uk does say "no pound sterling"........ interesting that up till 18 months ago, he was calling pound sterling "rotten" and was advocating taking up the euro! so is this what he meant by "temporary arrangement" (damn... those words again!) b) whats "plan b" for EU membership.... because this is what I see happening Scotland : can we have pound sterling please? UK: nope! Scotland: we wont take any of the debt UK: fine.... we will veto membership of the EU until you take on your part of the debt! checkmate........" Fabio, plan B is the £, regardless either in a union or pegged like the $ is in Hong Kong (fed up with the Panama reference getting banded about) EU membership will be negotiated. That's a no brainer. Scotland has too much to offer. Spain have already said they won't veto as long as an agreement is made between WM and Edinburgh. If you had seen BBC Parliament earlier today with Fabian Zuleeg, he blew all the 'no you can't' stories out the water. Eye opening insight. Funnily enough, none of the mainstream press covering this today. Period. David Bowie embarrassingly but nothing that actually contributes to the debate. Your last checkmate bit, well to be fair UK gov already doing that. Anything to get in the way, despite what the Edinburgh agreement was meant to represent. | |||
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"The scottish government has suggested they pay towards a fair share of the debt in return for a fair share of the assets, it's a trade off and if Westminster don't want to play fair then so be it. Lets remember that the PM insisted on no pre negotiation but they have ruled out a union on the £ already? " That isn't negotiation. Negotiation is 'if you do this, we'll do that'. No currency union is 'fuck off'. | |||
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"I am still waiting to hear something from the yes side on this question..... a) "whats plan b" for currency if the uk does say "no pound sterling"........ interesting that up till 18 months ago, he was calling pound sterling "rotten" and was advocating taking up the euro! so is this what he meant by "temporary arrangement" (damn... those words again!) b) whats "plan b" for EU membership.... because this is what I see happening Scotland : can we have pound sterling please? UK: nope! Scotland: we wont take any of the debt UK: fine.... we will veto membership of the EU until you take on your part of the debt! checkmate........ Fabio, plan B is the £, regardless either in a union or pegged like the $ is in Hong Kong (fed up with the Panama reference getting banded about) EU membership will be negotiated. That's a no brainer. Scotland has too much to offer. Spain have already said they won't veto as long as an agreement is made between WM and Edinburgh. If you had seen BBC Parliament earlier today with Fabian Zuleeg, he blew all the 'no you can't' stories out the water. Eye opening insight. Funnily enough, none of the mainstream press covering this today. Period. David Bowie embarrassingly but nothing that actually contributes to the debate. Your last checkmate bit, well to be fair UK gov already doing that. Anything to get in the way, despite what the Edinburgh agreement was meant to represent. " Zuleeg is being ignored cos he contributed nothing of value. He was only on telly cos the Winter Olympics were having a lie in. | |||
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"copy & paste from the scotland forum on here.... this makes sense to me. I would be in favour of more powers to Holyrood, but not outright independence. I'd also be in favour of England getting their own parliament (Westminster is the UK parliament, which just happens to also serve England) and leave Westminster for international issues and domestic issues which affect everyone in the country . This would be similar to America and other federations, where the States vote and legislate for their own issues, and the Federal Government is for National ones. " it is actually being offered... its called "devo max" in which scotland would actually control everything expect defense and foreign policy.... if scotland vote no.. it is actually supported by all parties in the next general election | |||
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"There is nothing to stop Scotland using Sterling - apart from not having any control over interest rates and monetary policy. In extremis this could even mean not having enough bank notes to hand. The SNP's policy wonks have stated that Currency Union is the best prospect for Scotland, curiously they don't seem to mention using sterling without Currency Union." well in the white paper it describes currency union as a "temporary arrangement" so what stability does it give to the country who is in effect underwriting you? we all know until 18 months ago alex favoured the euro, and called pound sterling rottten... now its.... currency union, euro not an option.... | |||
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"I am still waiting to hear something from the yes side on this question..... a) "whats plan b" for currency if the uk does say "no pound sterling"........ interesting that up till 18 months ago, he was calling pound sterling "rotten" and was advocating taking up the euro! so is this what he meant by "temporary arrangement" (damn... those words again!) b) whats "plan b" for EU membership.... because this is what I see happening Scotland : can we have pound sterling please? UK: nope! Scotland: we wont take any of the debt UK: fine.... we will veto membership of the EU until you take on your part of the debt! checkmate........ Fabio, plan B is the £, regardless either in a union or pegged like the $ is in Hong Kong (fed up with the Panama reference getting banded about) EU membership will be negotiated. That's a no brainer. Scotland has too much to offer. Spain have already said they won't veto as long as an agreement is made between WM and Edinburgh. If you had seen BBC Parliament earlier today with Fabian Zuleeg, he blew all the 'no you can't' stories out the water. Eye opening insight. Funnily enough, none of the mainstream press covering this today. Period. David Bowie embarrassingly but nothing that actually contributes to the debate. Your last checkmate bit, well to be fair UK gov already doing that. Anything to get in the way, despite what the Edinburgh agreement was meant to represent. Zuleeg is being ignored cos he contributed nothing of value. He was only on telly cos the Winter Olympics were having a lie in." And barroso was only sticking his oar in as he is looking for UK backing to his campaign in sept. Zuleeg was very insightful. Period. Jim Currie also blasted Barroso as talking out his arse. Obviously I'm ad libbing there. | |||
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"Well in Scottish and I'm voting no, as are the majority of people I know. I also have friends and family members who will be losing their jobs if Scotland separates from the union. " Really? In what sector? | |||
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"There is nothing to stop Scotland using Sterling - apart from not having any control over interest rates and monetary policy. In extremis this could even mean not having enough bank notes to hand. The SNP's policy wonks have stated that Currency Union is the best prospect for Scotland, curiously they don't seem to mention using sterling without Currency Union." The fallback position is ginger bottles. | |||
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"Devo max was removed from the vote by Cameron and none of the unionist parties are offering anything on more powers. If it's a no vote they will strip powers bit by bit from Edinburgh .. guaranteed! " ahem... i have today "Scotman" to back up what I have said.... what do you have to back up your allegation that powers will be stripped... if fact to be honest I quite like the far that westminster now cannot be blamed for decisions made at a local level from the scotish parliament in holyrood...... so what power would they strip first???  | |||
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"..... Zuleeg is being ignored cos he contributed nothing of value. He was only on telly cos the Winter Olympics were having a lie in. And barroso was only sticking his oar in as he is looking for UK backing to his campaign in sept. ........" Welcome to the real world. | |||
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"The debate is interesting and will be ultimately be decided via a democratic process. My opinion is that its all a bit mad and a power trip for Alex Salmond and the James Bond geezer who lives in Spain." He now lives in the Bahamas and is being investigated for a dodgy property deal in Spain that could involve a prison sentence should he return. | |||
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"Devo max was removed from the vote by Cameron and none of the unionist parties are offering anything on more powers. If it's a no vote they will strip powers bit by bit from Edinburgh .. guaranteed! ahem... i have today "Scotman" to back up what I have said.... what do you have to back up your allegation that powers will be stripped... if fact to be honest I quite like the far that westminster now cannot be blamed for decisions made at a local level from the scotish parliament in holyrood...... so what power would they strip first??? "Scotsman newspaper?!! Christ that's more Tory than Cameron. Don't take anything in that as gospel. It's a sinking ship that's lobbing Unionist canons overboard as it goes down. | |||
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"The debate is interesting and will be ultimately be decided via a democratic process. My opinion is that its all a bit mad and a power trip for Alex Salmond and the James Bond geezer who lives in Spain. He now lives in the Bahamas and is being investigated for a dodgy property deal in Spain that could involve a prison sentence should he return." The James Bond geezer who hasn't said a word since 2011? | |||
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"The debate is interesting and will be ultimately be decided via a democratic process. My opinion is that its all a bit mad and a power trip for Alex Salmond and the James Bond geezer who lives in Spain. He now lives in the Bahamas and is being investigated for a dodgy property deal in Spain that could involve a prison sentence should he return." Remember, this is the guy who got out of Alcatraz  | |||
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"Personally I'd rather iScotland didnt have a currency union and I think that's what Salmond was expecting all along, bbut he's tried to be seen as "reasonable" .. rUK will be in serious mess when Scottish trade is removed from the balance of payments" This is Tongue in cheek yes ? | |||
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"Devo max was removed from the vote by Cameron and none of the unionist parties are offering anything on more powers. If it's a no vote they will strip powers bit by bit from Edinburgh .. guaranteed! ahem... i have today "Scotman" to back up what I have said.... what do you have to back up your allegation that powers will be stripped... if fact to be honest I quite like the far that westminster now cannot be blamed for decisions made at a local level from the scotish parliament in holyrood...... so what power would they strip first??? "The scotsman .. ah well it must be true then! It's well known none of the msm are unbiased up here.. not, but post the link and I'll have a look. Labour MPs are backing away from more powers suggested by their scottish leader, the lib dems will never get enough clout to bring anything to fruition | |||
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"If Scotland leaves I think England should ditch the rest too and just go it alone." This is the stuff we hate, England thinking they rule over us and are kind to their 'colonies'. You cannot 'ditch' anyone, but you can also opt to cede from the union. None of us are 'yours' to ditch! | |||
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" This is Tongue in cheek yes ?" Nope.. it'll happen thats if DC isn't on the steps of Holyrood on the 19th of September to start speaking sense at last! | |||
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"There is nothing to stop Scotland using Sterling - apart from not having any control over interest rates and monetary policy. In extremis this could even mean not having enough bank notes to hand. The SNP's policy wonks have stated that Currency Union is the best prospect for Scotland, curiously they don't seem to mention using sterling without Currency Union. The fallback position is ginger bottles." Full or empty? | |||
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" This is Tongue in cheek yes ? Nope.. it'll happen thats if DC isn't on the steps of Holyrood on the 19th of September to start speaking sense at last!" He doesn't speak sense anywhere so why would he start at Holyrood on 19th September? | |||
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" This is Tongue in cheek yes ? Nope.. it'll happen thats if DC isn't on the steps of Holyrood on the 19th of September to start speaking sense at last!" Sorry but i dont understand where that comes into the rest of the Uk getting into a right mess | |||
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"Devo max was removed from the vote by Cameron and none of the unionist parties are offering anything on more powers. If it's a no vote they will strip powers bit by bit from Edinburgh .. guaranteed! ahem... i have today "Scotman" to back up what I have said.... what do you have to back up your allegation that powers will be stripped... if fact to be honest I quite like the far that westminster now cannot be blamed for decisions made at a local level from the scotish parliament in holyrood...... so what power would they strip first???
The scotsman .. ah well it must be true then! It's well known none of the msm are unbiased up here.. not, but post the link and I'll have a look.
Labour MPs are backing away from more powers suggested by their scottish leader, the lib dems will never get enough clout to bring anything to fruition"humour me... what power as you allege would westminster take back first? | |||
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"So far, there doesn't appear to be a Plan B regarding currency which if i were Scottish would be worrying me greatly now. Repeatedly claiming that a Currency Union will happen despite evidence to the contrary is a bit odd to be honest. Remember there is a general election in the UK next yr, any party that comes to power will need either a mandate to form such a Union, or offer a referendum on it. Given that opposition to the idea is pretty widespread in the rest of the UK, how likely is that to happen? The White Paper makes it explicit that Currency Union is the preferred option - the only option for the SNP in fact. The elephant in the room is that this means they don't really want Independence. As Mark Carney said, for Currency Union to work there needs to be a ceding of National Sovereignty from Scotland to the Bank of England & political union as well. Given that the SNP's only position on currency is to create a Formal Currency Union it therefore follows they don't actually want full independence,& this is the con trick they are offering the Scottish Electorate. Scotland deserves better." Don't look for logic in the Separatist's position - there isn't any. | |||
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"So far, there doesn't appear to be a Plan B regarding currency which if i were Scottish would be worrying me greatly now. Repeatedly claiming that a Currency Union will happen despite evidence to the contrary is a bit odd to be honest. Remember there is a general election in the UK next yr, any party that comes to power will need either a mandate to form such a Union, or offer a referendum on it. Given that opposition to the idea is pretty widespread in the rest of the UK, how likely is that to happen? The White Paper makes it explicit that Currency Union is the preferred option - the only option for the SNP in fact. The elephant in the room is that this means they don't really want Independence. As Mark Carney said, for Currency Union to work there needs to be a ceding of National Sovereignty from Scotland to the Bank of England & political union as well. Given that the SNP's only position on currency is to create a Formal Currency Union it therefore follows they don't actually want full independence,& this is the con trick they are offering the Scottish Electorate. Scotland deserves better." Various options on currency. CU, pegging, euro. You're right, Scotland does deserve better. On Sept 18th we'll vote Yes for better. Remember the Benelux countries had a union in place and it worked for 60? Years before joining the Euro. They were fixing their own respective interest rates and spending etc. It's do-able. I still can't get my head round why people perceive Scotland as the only country in the World not entitled to not capable of becoming Independent. People bemoan other states for the trouble they go through to be independent and champion their cause. We do and we're a shower of haggis eating, dress wearing, hopeless thickys all of a sudden. | |||
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"There is probably a plan b .. c and maybe even a d, like him or loath him Salmond is a shrewd cookie.. watch this space" Theres a Plan that cant fail, Keep the voters guessing until the last minute...Trust me would i Lie i'm a politician  | |||
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"There is probably a plan b .. c and maybe even a d, like him or loath him Salmond is a shrewd cookie.. watch this space" He's probably got a plan Z but it'll be no more workable than the others. | |||
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"Devo max was removed from the vote by Cameron and none of the unionist parties are offering anything on more powers. If it's a no vote they will strip powers bit by bit from Edinburgh .. guaranteed! ahem... i have today "Scotman" to back up what I have said.... what do you have to back up your allegation that powers will be stripped... if fact to be honest I quite like the far that westminster now cannot be blamed for decisions made at a local level from the scotish parliament in holyrood...... so what power would they strip first???
The scotsman .. ah well it must be true then! It's well known none of the msm are unbiased up here.. not, but post the link and I'll have a look.
Labour MPs are backing away from more powers suggested by their scottish leader, the lib dems will never get enough clout to bring anything to fruition
humour me... what power as you allege would westminster take back first?"First will be the Barnett formula restricting the Scottish budget. The Lords have already removed SG powers over some renewables | |||
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"If Scotland leaves I think England should ditch the rest too and just go it alone. This is the stuff we hate, England thinking they rule over us and are kind to their 'colonies'. You cannot 'ditch' anyone, but you can also opt to cede from the union. None of us are 'yours' to ditch!" I was trolling, I thought that was obvious. | |||
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"So far, there doesn't appear to be a Plan B regarding currency which if i were Scottish would be worrying me greatly now. Repeatedly claiming that a Currency Union will happen despite evidence to the contrary is a bit odd to be honest. Remember there is a general election in the UK next yr, any party that comes to power will need either a mandate to form such a Union, or offer a referendum on it. Given that opposition to the idea is pretty widespread in the rest of the UK, how likely is that to happen? The White Paper makes it explicit that Currency Union is the preferred option - the only option for the SNP in fact. The elephant in the room is that this means they don't really want Independence. As Mark Carney said, for Currency Union to work there needs to be a ceding of National Sovereignty from Scotland to the Bank of England & political union as well. Given that the SNP's only position on currency is to create a Formal Currency Union it therefore follows they don't actually want full independence,& this is the con trick they are offering the Scottish Electorate. Scotland deserves better. Various options on currency. CU, pegging, euro. You're right, Scotland does deserve better. On Sept 18th we'll vote Yes for better. Remember the Benelux countries had a union in place and it worked for 60? Years before joining the Euro. They were fixing their own respective interest rates and spending etc. It's do-able. I still can't get my head round why people perceive Scotland as the only country in the World not entitled to not capable of becoming Independent. People bemoan other states for the trouble they go through to be independent and champion their cause. We do and we're a shower of haggis eating, dress wearing, hopeless thickys all of a sudden. " You misunderstand - i WANT Scotland to leave the Union. You reference the Benelux Nations, they had a Currency Union - that is NOT on offer to Scotland. Yes, it would be advantageous to Scotland, but it would be wrong for the UK and the UK taxpayer which is why the idea has been rejected. Pegging will offer you the use of sterling without being able to control it, interest rates will be set without reference to Scottish needs and the SNP know very well how bad this could be for Scotland - which is why they do not even consider it in the White Paper. Scotland can be successful, no one seriously thinks otherwise. We just don't want you doing it bankrolled by our taxes. People keep likening it to a divorce - after divorce do you expect to retain access to the other party's bank account? | |||
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"So far, there doesn't appear to be a Plan B regarding currency which if i were Scottish would be worrying me greatly now. Repeatedly claiming that a Currency Union will happen despite evidence to the contrary is a bit odd to be honest. Remember there is a general election in the UK next yr, any party that comes to power will need either a mandate to form such a Union, or offer a referendum on it. Given that opposition to the idea is pretty widespread in the rest of the UK, how likely is that to happen? The White Paper makes it explicit that Currency Union is the preferred option - the only option for the SNP in fact. The elephant in the room is that this means they don't really want Independence. As Mark Carney said, for Currency Union to work there needs to be a ceding of National Sovereignty from Scotland to the Bank of England & political union as well. Given that the SNP's only position on currency is to create a Formal Currency Union it therefore follows they don't actually want full independence,& this is the con trick they are offering the Scottish Electorate. Scotland deserves better. Various options on currency. CU, pegging, euro. You're right, Scotland does deserve better. On Sept 18th we'll vote Yes for better. Remember the Benelux countries had a union in place and it worked for 60? Years before joining the Euro. They were fixing their own respective interest rates and spending etc. It's do-able. " because they all had their own central banks to bail themselves out in times where they needed to.... so lets look at the last european "currency union".... when the czech rep and slovakia split up amacably they went into a currency union... so far so good.... it lasted 33 days..... why? because big business in that part of the world all moved their HQ's from bratislava (the Slovak capital) to Prague (the Czech capital).... because they deemed the czech govt to be more ecomonically stable......... if you default on your part of the debt by not taking it... what does that say to investors? lets be realistic.... scotland need a currency union way more than the rUK does... which is why when you say "um...plan b?" you get a lot of "la la la I'm not listening" | |||
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" Scotland deserves better. Various options on currency. CU, pegging, euro. You're right, Scotland does deserve better. On Sept 18th we'll vote Yes for better. Remember the Benelux countries had a union in place and it worked for 60? Years before joining the Euro. They were fixing their own respective interest rates and spending etc. It's do-able. I still can't get my head round why people perceive Scotland as the only country in the World not entitled to not capable of becoming Independent. People bemoan other states for the trouble they go through to be independent and champion their cause. We do and we're a shower of haggis eating, dress wearing, hopeless thickys all of a sudden. " Where are you getting that Scotland is the only country in the world not entitled or capable of becoming independent? I haven't seen any of what you are suggesting. Unlike other countries you are not in a position where your perceived oppression takes the form of denying you the vote or imprisoning you for your views. The questions are reasonable and the effects affect the rest of the UK, not just Scotland. You have a vote on your independence this September. The rest of the UK does not have a vote on any of the things that will affect us. So far yours is the only post I have read suggesting the Scots are "a shower of haggis eating, dress wearing, hopeless thickys" - it's not something I believe and I really don't think it is what the majority joining the debate think either. As I mention on every thread, my concern is that this does not go away if the vote is to remain part of the UK. The worst outcome of all, for Scotland more than the rest of the UK, is that the vote is so close that no one is satisfied. You either start a new country with half your countrymen against you or you remain in a Union where the other half of the countrymen resent everyone who voted no. | |||
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"Don't forget, the pro-independence concept has been reported to have more supporters South of the Border than in Scotland. I worry that this rise in tension will poison the UK for decades, which is why i want Scotland gone quickly." The more I read and hear I have to agree. It will never go away until Scotland is independent. | |||
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"Don't forget, the pro-independence concept has been reported to have more supporters South of the Border than in Scotland. I worry that this rise in tension will poison the UK for decades, which is why i want Scotland gone quickly. The more I read and hear I have to agree. It will never go away until Scotland is independent. " This is a very good point, I had never thought of it like that. Saddening but the truth.  | |||
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"Don't forget, the pro-independence concept has been reported to have more supporters South of the Border than in Scotland. I worry that this rise in tension will poison the UK for decades, which is why i want Scotland gone quickly. The more I read and hear I have to agree. It will never go away until Scotland is independent. This is a very good point, I had never thought of it like that. Saddening but the truth. "I wonder where it all went wrong. We should be celebrating being together, not constantly at each others throats. I guess it was never a true union. We kept Scot's Law and other aspects uniqiue to Scotland. Maybe it was doomed from day 1. Even if the no vote prevails, and I hope it does, there will always tension and poison between us. | |||
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"Im born and bred Scottish but I am not allowed a vote in my homeland's future just because I live in England BUT foreign students who are there a short while studying can have a vote on my homeland's future WHICH I think is wrong and a lot of scots who live else where feel it is wrong too. "Where would it end? The Scots in New Zealand? If all those living outside of Scotland want it to remain part of the Union they should be speaking to family back in Scotland. If they want it to be independent will they be returning to Scotland once it is independent? If not, what difference does it make? | |||
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" . I still can't get my head round why people perceive Scotland as the only country in the World not entitled to not capable of becoming Independent. .............. " I don't think anyone is saying Scotland isn't entitled to hold a referendum on Separation or that Scotland wouldn't be capable of surviving the divorce - just that we're Better Together. | |||
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"There is nothing to stop Scotland using Sterling - apart from not having any control over interest rates and monetary policy. In extremis this could even mean not having enough bank notes to hand. The SNP's policy wonks have stated that Currency Union is the best prospect for Scotland, curiously they don't seem to mention using sterling without Currency Union." you are absolutely right, there is nothing stopping an independent Scotland using the £ or the US$ or any other currency the choose. But that is not the issue. The issue is who will be their 'lender of last resort', they want to use the Bank of England and therefore have us in the UK underwrite an independent Scotland's government lending and Scottish banks. This is what is being refused and rightly so. | |||
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"If Scotland leaves I think England should ditch the rest too and just go it alone. This is the stuff we hate, England thinking they rule over us and are kind to their 'colonies'. You cannot 'ditch' anyone, but you can also opt to cede from the union. None of us are 'yours' to ditch! I was trolling, I thought that was obvious. "I thought as much but you would be surprised how many do genuinely have that point of view! | |||
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"Interesting point I heard someone propose after that eu commissioner's speech, would rUK post Scottish independence not also be as much a new state as Scotland and therefore also have to be subjected to the same scrutiny re continuing membership? Given that all current parts of the uk are in the eu, this argument surely has some credibility does it not?" It might except that isn't being presented anywhere and is not in the EU interest to even consider it. If we follow that argument through to its logical conclusion though it means the rest of the UK should have a vote on this important matter of Scotland leaving and forcing the rest of the UK to become a new state. Again, the arguments can be made in every which way you want but the fact is that only Scotland has this vote, the rest of the UK will continue as the UK minus Scotland and it won't be asked to leave the EU but Scotland is very likely to have to apply to join. | |||
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"had to do part 2 of this thread, excellent and interesting thread, but more importantly, it has been a troublefree debate at last" It'll be the best thing the Scots did since Hadrian was getting pissed on Ale in Dublin!  | |||
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"Interesting point I heard someone propose after that eu commissioner's speech, would rUK post Scottish independence not also be as much a new state as Scotland and therefore also have to be subjected to the same scrutiny re continuing membership? Given that all current parts of the uk are in the eu, this argument surely has some credibility does it not?" No ! | |||
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"Remember it's not up to David Cameron, Alex salmond Believe it or not it's up to us the general public. Who get to say yes or no Personally as I said before what have we got to loose. nothing at all. And in all honest I think we would be much better off " Actually you have everything to loose and only a fool would ignore all the warnings you are getting about the exact cost of independence to Scotland and the Scottish people. But hey what do the politicians in London, Brussels and Madrid who have spoken out no about the political ramifications? The same applies to the Governor of the Bank of England when he speaks about currency? And as for the international businessmen who say they will be relocating south of the new border, what would they know? Its not like these people could actually do anything other than turn your country into an economic wasteland. Of course you have nothing to loose.
And lets not forget that the CEO of Asda UK has said that if Scotland becomes independent then Asda and the other major retailers will no longer be able to use their business south of the border to subsidise northern retail prices and that there will be inevitable food price increases to cover the retailers extra distribution costs...
Hey! I have just had a eureka moment!
Vote yes!
More jobs for the North West and cheaper shopping! And the of course those destroyers will also get built in Portsmouth.
Sorry my apologies to you Duncan and the the rest of the Yes camp. You have convinced me of the benefits of going your own way!
Just remember to leave your key on the sideboard in the hall and make sure you properly close the door on your way out...  | |||
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"Remember it's not up to David Cameron, Alex salmond Believe it or not it's up to us the general public. Who get to say yes or no Personally as I said before what have we got to loose. nothing at all. And in all honest I think we would be much better off " Sadly many businesses don't feel the same there are many who have made contingencies to move if it happens although the odds are against it happening they still have to consider viability and many have not extended leases on buildings till they see what happens. Its not good for investment or jobs this year. | |||
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" ........And the of course those destroyers will also get built in Portsmouth. ............. " Frigates. Type 26 Global Combat Ships. | |||
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" ........And the of course those destroyers will also get built in Portsmouth. ............. Frigates. Type 26 Global Combat Ships." Sorry not a naval man Onny, thought I had heard that they ate to replace the type 42 destroyers so assumed they would also be destroyers. Hope you have some plans made for relocating if you lose the vote as I dont think the outlook for an independent Scotland is very rosy. | |||
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" ........Hope you have some plans made for relocating if you lose the vote as I dont think the outlook for an independent Scotland is very rosy." I have no plans to move anywhere. Even in the increasingly unlikely event of a divorce, the settlement won't be agreed till long after I'm dead (I have no plans for that either). Even after any re-run, I don't believe anyone on Fab today will live to see Separation. | |||
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" ........Hope you have some plans made for relocating if you lose the vote as I dont think the outlook for an independent Scotland is very rosy. I have no plans to move anywhere. Even in the increasingly unlikely event of a divorce, the settlement won't be agreed till long after I'm dead (I have no plans for that either). Even after any re-run, I don't believe anyone on Fab today will live to see Separation." Would be nice if that was the case but i think that if the vote is won by the 'Yes' campaign then the move from Scotland being Part of the UK to an independent Scotland will be eye wateringly fast. I would put my money on less than a year and probably before the next general election so that the tories get the maximum advantage by removing all those stubbornly socialist Scottish constituencies from Westminster. | |||
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" Scotland deserves better. Various options on currency. CU, pegging, euro. You're right, Scotland does deserve better. On Sept 18th we'll vote Yes for better. Remember the Benelux countries had a union in place and it worked for 60? Years before joining the Euro. They were fixing their own respective interest rates and spending etc. It's do-able. I still can't get my head round why people perceive Scotland as the only country in the World not entitled to not capable of becoming Independent. People bemoan other states for the trouble they go through to be independent and champion their cause. We do and we're a shower of haggis eating, dress wearing, hopeless thickys all of a sudden. Where are you getting that Scotland is the only country in the world not entitled or capable of becoming independent? I haven't seen any of what you are suggesting. Unlike other countries you are not in a position where your perceived oppression takes the form of denying you the vote or imprisoning you for your views. The questions are reasonable and the effects affect the rest of the UK, not just Scotland. You have a vote on your independence this September. The rest of the UK does not have a vote on any of the things that will affect us. So far yours is the only post I have read suggesting the Scots are "a shower of haggis eating, dress wearing, hopeless thickys" - it's not something I believe and I really don't think it is what the majority joining the debate think either. As I mention on every thread, my concern is that this does not go away if the vote is to remain part of the UK. The worst outcome of all, for Scotland more than the rest of the UK, is that the vote is so close that no one is satisfied. You either start a new country with half your countrymen against you or you remain in a Union where the other half of the countrymen resent everyone who voted no. " " Scotland deserves better. Various options on currency. CU, pegging, euro. You're right, Scotland does deserve better. On Sept 18th we'll vote Yes for better. Remember the Benelux countries had a union in place and it worked for 60? Years before joining the Euro. They were fixing their own respective interest rates and spending etc. It's do-able. I still can't get my head round why people perceive Scotland as the only country in the World not entitled to not capable of becoming Independent. People bemoan other states for the trouble they go through to be independent and champion their cause. We do and we're a shower of haggis eating, dress wearing, hopeless thickys all of a sudden. Where are you getting that Scotland is the only country in the world not entitled or capable of becoming independent? I haven't seen any of what you are suggesting. Unlike other countries you are not in a position where your perceived oppression takes the form of denying you the vote or imprisoning you for your views. The questions are reasonable and the effects affect the rest of the UK, not just Scotland. You have a vote on your independence this September. The rest of the UK does not have a vote on any of the things that will affect us. So far yours is the only post I have read suggesting the Scots are "a shower of haggis eating, dress wearing, hopeless thickys" - it's not something I believe and I really don't think it is what the majority joining the debate think either. As I mention on every thread, my concern is that this does not go away if the vote is to remain part of the UK. The worst outcome of all, for Scotland more than the rest of the UK, is that the vote is so close that no one is satisfied. You either start a new country with half your countrymen against you or you remain in a Union where the other half of the countrymen resent everyone who voted no. " Didn't say questions were not unreasonable. My point on countries was the amount of similar size countries who are doing way better than many with similar population numbers and resources. We're not oppressed by any stretch for sure but we do always end up with a government control our lives that we never vote for. That's not right in anyone's book. And as far as the 'haggis' remark, you've maybe not seen it on this thread but I have seen the put down and others of a similar time in other posts, even within the Scotland forum. It's also quite widely used in mainstream press. None more so than the patronising and condescending than the Guardian's '76 Apologies' article earlier this week. Daily mail not to shy at lambasting either. Even Channel 5 uttered the line 'have your haggis and eat it' - which was interestingly edited out of the on demand showing. Agreed on your last part though. That's exactly how it will be. Someone mentioned the currency union collapse in Czech/ Slovakia. Again there's a difference in that the economies are completely different to that of Scotland and rUK. We keep getting that with Greece and the Euro too. We are both strong economies already, Scotland did come out of recession slightly quicker than the rUK, low unemployment and great trade between the two parts. Those lessen any risk to collapse. Personally, I'd rather see an independent currency or a £ pegged, that way there's no issue with rUK, other than added costs to trade, but if interest etc is kept in line that shouldn't be much of an issue. It's also not an anti English thing, someone posted about bannockburn, sure you get those kind of people but they're the exception to the rule. Every country has them and we get it the other way too - believe me. Interesting to see what you (dan saff) are getting told, reading, reaction though. | |||
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"The main (only?) concern is that our taxes are not being used to underwrite Scottish Govt spending in a Currency Union. After that i doubt whether many really care whether Scotland stays or goes. One question though, if Scotland's economy is that strong why can she not set up her own central bank? This is a serious question & one i haven't seen answered." I don't think there's any reason why it can't other than the impact on trade with costs. Interesting article, albiet in the Scotsman http://m.scotsman.com/news/bill-jamieson-is-a-central-bank-worth-the-money-1-3312816 | |||
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"So the reason why the SNP's White Paper ignores the possibility of creating a Scottish Central Bank is the cost to the Scottish Economy? Their preferred method is to have the UK Central Bank - the Bank of England - underwrite the costs of Scottish Governmental borrowing? Can you now understand why there is such opposition to the idea in the UK? The SNP don't want true Independence, they want Devo Max through the back door by relying on the BoE to keep interests rates low & avoiding Sottish risk. Not going to happen. I will even hold my nose & vote tory if they are the party that offers a guarantee of no Currency Union at the next election, its that important to the UK." Yes it's important to the Scottish economy, similarly to the rUKs. If we change currency there will be costs between trading partners, banks, costs to tourism (home grown tourism is on the rise). Our trade between countries is massive (2nd biggest trading partners I think). The costs to that with an independent currency will be equally so. So to coin a phrase, it's the best of both Worlds. Hear what you are saying though. I too would probably be the same if the shoe were on the other foot. A lot of arguments against independence are the self same ones we heard back in 79 and again in 97 against the referendums for devolved power here. Pretty safe to say they were shown up for what they were. Can't remember the total borrowing that the UK made over past 7 years but it was pretty staggering, Scot Parliament is in the black and has remained so. Something this big is never going to be easy but I really believe it will be best in the long run for all. | |||
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"So the reason why the SNP's White Paper ignores the possibility of creating a Scottish Central Bank is the cost to the Scottish Economy? Their preferred method is to have the UK Central Bank - the Bank of England - underwrite the costs of Scottish Governmental borrowing? Can you now understand why there is such opposition to the idea in the UK? The SNP don't want true Independence, they want Devo Max through the back door by relying on the BoE to keep interests rates low & avoiding Sottish risk. Not going to happen. I will even hold my nose & vote tory if they are the party that offers a guarantee of no Currency Union at the next election, its that important to the UK. Yes it's important to the Scottish economy, similarly to the rUKs. If we change currency there will be costs between trading partners, banks, costs to tourism (home grown tourism is on the rise). Our trade between countries is massive (2nd biggest trading partners I think). The costs to that with an independent currency will be equally so. So to coin a phrase, it's the best of both Worlds. Hear what you are saying though. I too would probably be the same if the shoe were on the other foot. A lot of arguments against independence are the self same ones we heard back in 79 and again in 97 against the referendums for devolved power here. Pretty safe to say they were shown up for what they were. Can't remember the total borrowing that the UK made over past 7 years but it was pretty staggering, Scot Parliament is in the black and has remained so. Something this big is never going to be easy but I really believe it will be best in the long run for all. " It is good to see an acknowledgement that if the shoe was on the other foot, as it is for the UK, you might have similar concerns. Your best of both worlds comment is exactly what those of us arguing for Scotland accepting the consequences of full independence is about: the best of both worlds for you leaves the rest of us with the shitty end of the stick. How is it fair for some 5 million people to hold 55 million to ransom like that? As to your point of being left controlled by a government you didn't vote for as a nation I have some shocking news for you: whoever you vote for you always get the government. That's not a reason to avoid voting but actual government has to do things that most of us don't want, which is why we organise in that way. Holyrood has more powers than just about every area of the UK so you do get the government you have elected. London has a greater population than Scotland and can make very similar arguments but we can't change education fees or prescription charges or a whole host of other things. Your national self determination argument is fine as long as you truly mean to be independent and the arguments so far are not for that. On your low unemployment rates it could be argued that is also an effect of those seeking work travelling freely across the UK to find it. You Scots are everywhere, except Scotland. | |||
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" Yes it's important to the Scottish economy, similarly to the rUKs. If we change currency there will be costs between trading partners, banks, costs to tourism (home grown tourism is on the rise). Our trade between countries is massive (2nd biggest trading partners I think). The costs to that with an independent currency will be equally so. So to coin a phrase, it's the best of both Worlds. Hear what you are saying though. I too would probably be the same if the shoe were on the other foot. A lot of arguments against independence are the self same ones we heard back in 79 and again in 97 against the referendums for devolved power here. Pretty safe to say they were shown up for what they were. Can't remember the total borrowing that the UK made over past 7 years but it was pretty staggering, Scot Parliament is in the black and has remained so. Something this big is never going to be easy but I really believe it will be best in the long run for all. " Have the UK not been borrowing for the whole country though? To do things like build ships, in Scotland. Do the Scottish Parliament borrow or have the ability to borrow at the moment? Does the UK not borrow for Scotland at the moment thus making the point about Scottish parliament being a non point. It receives its share of what the UK parliament borrows as a whole. It has no need to borrow. We always hear about more Scottish money coming south, believe me when I say not much of that money comes south west... The migration of people seems to follow that trend too. 10% of Scots are in England. 5% of Scotland's inhabitants are English. Maybe the money is going where it is needed in the country as a whole, not where it is earned. Things like healthcare and pensions, is the rest of the UK going to have to pick up the bill for the disparity. I read recently that due to life expectancy being longer in the rUK that over time the differences in taxes even out as the rUK pays taxes for longer on average. From what I've read it seems that the average yes voter simply wants to stop the flow of money southwards, whilst retaining all the other benefits of the Union. In fact there are posts on these threads about Scots already being told their jobs will be moving South. And the Scots involved are expecting to be able to move South with those jobs as they have had the freedom to do so for many years. Why should the rUK allow that if you don't want to be part of the Union anymore? Why shouldn't Scots have to try and get work permits and visas after they have as a whole decided to leave the Union? If Scotland thinks it will be better off as an independent nation that is fine, and yes it will have a detrimental effect on the rest of the UK, why then would you expect to continue to benefit from the system that has evolved under the Union. | |||
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" Yes it's important to the Scottish economy, similarly to the rUKs. If we change currency there will be costs between trading partners, banks, costs to tourism (home grown tourism is on the rise). Our trade between countries is massive (2nd biggest trading partners I think). The costs to that with an independent currency will be equally so. So to coin a phrase, it's the best of both Worlds. Hear what you are saying though. I too would probably be the same if the shoe were on the other foot. A lot of arguments against independence are the self same ones we heard back in 79 and again in 97 against the referendums for devolved power here. Pretty safe to say they were shown up for what they were. Can't remember the total borrowing that the UK made over past 7 years but it was pretty staggering, Scot Parliament is in the black and has remained so. Something this big is never going to be easy but I really believe it will be best in the long run for all. Have the UK not been borrowing for the whole country though? To do things like build ships, in Scotland. Do the Scottish Parliament borrow or have the ability to borrow at the moment? Does the UK not borrow for Scotland at the moment thus making the point about Scottish parliament being a non point. It receives its share of what the UK parliament borrows as a whole. It has no need to borrow. We always hear about more Scottish money coming south, believe me when I say not much of that money comes south west... The migration of people seems to follow that trend too. 10% of Scots are in England. 5% of Scotland's inhabitants are English. Maybe the money is going where it is needed in the country as a whole, not where it is earned. Things like healthcare and pensions, is the rest of the UK going to have to pick up the bill for the disparity. I read recently that due to life expectancy being longer in the rUK that over time the differences in taxes even out as the rUK pays taxes for longer on average. From what I've read it seems that the average yes voter simply wants to stop the flow of money southwards, whilst retaining all the other benefits of the Union. In fact there are posts on these threads about Scots already being told their jobs will be moving South. And the Scots involved are expecting to be able to move South with those jobs as they have had the freedom to do so for many years. Why should the rUK allow that if you don't want to be part of the Union anymore? Why shouldn't Scots have to try and get work permits and visas after they have as a whole decided to leave the Union? If Scotland thinks it will be better off as an independent nation that is fine, and yes it will have a detrimental effect on the rest of the UK, why then would you expect to continue to benefit from the system that has evolved under the Union. " Yes it's true Uk borrows for whole UK. Not disputing that. It does borrow to maintain things like Trident which cost 1bn a year, that we don't want, it borrows to fund wars in other countries, that we don't want. We have literally just had the power to borrow given to the Scot govt, last week I think. Not a great deal and to be fair the horse has bolted as to when we needed that power. We coped. Health is already a devolved power to Scotland and nothing to do with rUK so, no, you won't be picking up a tab there. Pensions, as with rest if pensions are movable, so again, no. Work permits and visas? Another scare myth. Do you need one to work in France? Germany, Ireland? Of course you don't. Jobs moving south, are they? Who? Lost of scare stories again but no company has said we're ending our lease in sept. Think if the cost implications for big companies to move. Not going to happen. Companies are adaptable. They will adapt. | |||
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"Don't forget, the pro-independence concept has been reported to have more supporters South of the Border than in Scotland. I worry that this rise in tension will poison the UK for decades, which is why i want Scotland gone quickly." I think this is very true. Most of our friends want them to split but mainly out of morbid curiosity as to what will happen. | |||
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"We have one conservative MP, we have a conservative government. We never voted for that. Sure we have more power than most regions in the Uk, personally I think that needs addressed, especially in the north. Ultimately though, we are still governed by WM, by people we do not wish for imposing policy's we do not want. Don't agree at all that 'you Scots' are everywhere except here. That's a bit like saying there's more Polish people over here than at home. Migratory employment will still go on in the EU as it is whether or not Scotland is Independent." We have a coalition government that no one voted for. Look at the Scottish diaspora plus those that live in Scotland but work over the border. EU freedom of movement won't apply if you aren't part of the EU. | |||
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" Yes it's important to the Scottish economy, similarly to the rUKs. If we change currency there will be costs between trading partners, banks, costs to tourism (home grown tourism is on the rise). Our trade between countries is massive (2nd biggest trading partners I think). The costs to that with an independent currency will be equally so. So to coin a phrase, it's the best of both Worlds. Hear what you are saying though. I too would probably be the same if the shoe were on the other foot. A lot of arguments against independence are the self same ones we heard back in 79 and again in 97 against the referendums for devolved power here. Pretty safe to say they were shown up for what they were. Can't remember the total borrowing that the UK made over past 7 years but it was pretty staggering, Scot Parliament is in the black and has remained so. Something this big is never going to be easy but I really believe it will be best in the long run for all. Have the UK not been borrowing for the whole country though? To do things like build ships, in Scotland. Do the Scottish Parliament borrow or have the ability to borrow at the moment? Does the UK not borrow for Scotland at the moment thus making the point about Scottish parliament being a non point. It receives its share of what the UK parliament borrows as a whole. It has no need to borrow. We always hear about more Scottish money coming south, believe me when I say not much of that money comes south west... The migration of people seems to follow that trend too. 10% of Scots are in England. 5% of Scotland's inhabitants are English. Maybe the money is going where it is needed in the country as a whole, not where it is earned. Things like healthcare and pensions, is the rest of the UK going to have to pick up the bill for the disparity. I read recently that due to life expectancy being longer in the rUK that over time the differences in taxes even out as the rUK pays taxes for longer on average. From what I've read it seems that the average yes voter simply wants to stop the flow of money southwards, whilst retaining all the other benefits of the Union. In fact there are posts on these threads about Scots already being told their jobs will be moving South. And the Scots involved are expecting to be able to move South with those jobs as they have had the freedom to do so for many years. Why should the rUK allow that if you don't want to be part of the Union anymore? Why shouldn't Scots have to try and get work permits and visas after they have as a whole decided to leave the Union? If Scotland thinks it will be better off as an independent nation that is fine, and yes it will have a detrimental effect on the rest of the UK, why then would you expect to continue to benefit from the system that has evolved under the Union. Yes it's true Uk borrows for whole UK. Not disputing that. It does borrow to maintain things like Trident which cost 1bn a year, that we don't want, it borrows to fund wars in other countries, that we don't want. We have literally just had the power to borrow given to the Scot govt, last week I think. Not a great deal and to be fair the horse has bolted as to when we needed that power. We coped. Health is already a devolved power to Scotland and nothing to do with rUK so, no, you won't be picking up a tab there. Pensions, as with rest if pensions are movable, so again, no. Work permits and visas? Another scare myth. Do you need one to work in France? Germany, Ireland? Of course you don't. Jobs moving south, are they? Who? Lost of scare stories again but no company has said we're ending our lease in sept. Think if the cost implications for big companies to move. Not going to happen. Companies are adaptable. They will adapt. " Yet another refusal to live in the real world. All of the good and none of the bad cos Eck says so. Free heavy beer and pie suppers in the sky. Claymores, kilts and Gaelic lessons. | |||
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"We have one conservative MP, we have a conservative government. We never voted for that. Sure we have more power than most regions in the Uk, personally I think that needs addressed, especially in the north. Ultimately though, we are still governed by WM, by people we do not wish for imposing policy's we do not want. Don't agree at all that 'you Scots' are everywhere except here. That's a bit like saying there's more Polish people over here than at home. Migratory employment will still go on in the EU as it is whether or not Scotland is Independent. We have a coalition government that no one voted for. Look at the Scottish diaspora plus those that live in Scotland but work over the border. EU freedom of movement won't apply if you aren't part of the EU. " In 2017 the UK won't be part of the UK if Cameron gets his way. I really don't believe there will be any difficulty should Scotland wish to join the EU. | |||
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" Yes it's important to the Scottish economy, similarly to the rUKs. If we change currency there will be costs between trading partners, banks, costs to tourism (home grown tourism is on the rise). Our trade between countries is massive (2nd biggest trading partners I think). The costs to that with an independent currency will be equally so. So to coin a phrase, it's the best of both Worlds. Hear what you are saying though. I too would probably be the same if the shoe were on the other foot. A lot of arguments against independence are the self same ones we heard back in 79 and again in 97 against the referendums for devolved power here. Pretty safe to say they were shown up for what they were. Can't remember the total borrowing that the UK made over past 7 years but it was pretty staggering, Scot Parliament is in the black and has remained so. Something this big is never going to be easy but I really believe it will be best in the long run for all. Have the UK not been borrowing for the whole country though? To do things like build ships, in Scotland. Do the Scottish Parliament borrow or have the ability to borrow at the moment? Does the UK not borrow for Scotland at the moment thus making the point about Scottish parliament being a non point. It receives its share of what the UK parliament borrows as a whole. It has no need to borrow. We always hear about more Scottish money coming south, believe me when I say not much of that money comes south west... The migration of people seems to follow that trend too. 10% of Scots are in England. 5% of Scotland's inhabitants are English. Maybe the money is going where it is needed in the country as a whole, not where it is earned. Things like healthcare and pensions, is the rest of the UK going to have to pick up the bill for the disparity. I read recently that due to life expectancy being longer in the rUK that over time the differences in taxes even out as the rUK pays taxes for longer on average. From what I've read it seems that the average yes voter simply wants to stop the flow of money southwards, whilst retaining all the other benefits of the Union. In fact there are posts on these threads about Scots already being told their jobs will be moving South. And the Scots involved are expecting to be able to move South with those jobs as they have had the freedom to do so for many years. Why should the rUK allow that if you don't want to be part of the Union anymore? Why shouldn't Scots have to try and get work permits and visas after they have as a whole decided to leave the Union? If Scotland thinks it will be better off as an independent nation that is fine, and yes it will have a detrimental effect on the rest of the UK, why then would you expect to continue to benefit from the system that has evolved under the Union. Yes it's true Uk borrows for whole UK. Not disputing that. It does borrow to maintain things like Trident which cost 1bn a year, that we don't want, it borrows to fund wars in other countries, that we don't want. We have literally just had the power to borrow given to the Scot govt, last week I think. Not a great deal and to be fair the horse has bolted as to when we needed that power. We coped. Health is already a devolved power to Scotland and nothing to do with rUK so, no, you won't be picking up a tab there. Pensions, as with rest if pensions are movable, so again, no. Work permits and visas? Another scare myth. Do you need one to work in France? Germany, Ireland? Of course you don't. Jobs moving south, are they? Who? Lost of scare stories again but no company has said we're ending our lease in sept. Think if the cost implications for big companies to move. Not going to happen. Companies are adaptable. They will adapt. Yet another refusal to live in the real world. All of the good and none of the bad cos Eck says so. Free heavy beer and pie suppers in the sky. Claymores, kilts and Gaelic lessons." To whoever quoted my haggis remarks, I rest my case. | |||
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" Yes it's true Uk borrows for whole UK. Not disputing that. It does borrow to maintain things like Trident which cost 1bn a year, that we don't want, it borrows to fund wars in other countries, that we don't want. We have literally just had the power to borrow given to the Scot govt, last week I think. Not a great deal and to be fair the horse has bolted as to when we needed that power. We coped. Health is already a devolved power to Scotland and nothing to do with rUK so, no, you won't be picking up a tab there. Pensions, as with rest if pensions are movable, so again, no. Work permits and visas? Another scare myth. Do you need one to work in France? Germany, Ireland? Of course you don't. Jobs moving south, are they? Who? Lost of scare stories again but no company has said we're ending our lease in sept. Think if the cost implications for big companies to move. Not going to happen. Companies are adaptable. They will adapt. " Does the rest of the UK want trident? The Scots have benefitted until fairly recently with employment on said submarines. The politians seem to think trident keeps them on the top table... Gordon Brown didn't seem to keen on getting shot of them. A million people marched through London against the war on Iraq, a million, and they still didn't listen. It was a Scotsman that lead us into Iraq and Afghanistan lest we forget. I've worked for multinationals that have spent millions on rebranding their logo. Most of the oil companies head offices are already in London, or Douglas. Moving offices is not a big deal. I'm only going on what Scottish posters have said they have been told. State pensions are not movable. There is no big pension pot, what comes in goes out. It's not invested like a private pension. A UK citizen can claim their pension where ever they are in the world, I hope Scotland is going to offer that same service to it's citizens where ever they are in the world. France, Germany and Ireland are in the EU. Scotland won't be for a while. This is what we mean by Scotland expecting all the benefits of the union whilst rejecting the union. Why should your citizens be automatically be given the right of free movement and employment in a country it wants to be independent from? Apart from the fact that it benefits Scotland? It seems that the Scottish people want their cake and eat it. | |||
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" Yes it's true Uk borrows for whole UK. Not disputing that. It does borrow to maintain things like Trident which cost 1bn a year, that we don't want, it borrows to fund wars in other countries, that we don't want. We have literally just had the power to borrow given to the Scot govt, last week I think. Not a great deal and to be fair the horse has bolted as to when we needed that power. We coped. Health is already a devolved power to Scotland and nothing to do with rUK so, no, you won't be picking up a tab there. Pensions, as with rest if pensions are movable, so again, no. Work permits and visas? Another scare myth. Do you need one to work in France? Germany, Ireland? Of course you don't. Jobs moving south, are they? Who? Lost of scare stories again but no company has said we're ending our lease in sept. Think if the cost implications for big companies to move. Not going to happen. Companies are adaptable. They will adapt. Does the rest of the UK want trident? The Scots have benefitted until fairly recently with employment on said submarines. The politians seem to think trident keeps them on the top table... Gordon Brown didn't seem to keen on getting shot of them. A million people marched through London against the war on Iraq, a million, and they still didn't listen. It was a Scotsman that lead us into Iraq and Afghanistan lest we forget. I've worked for multinationals that have spent millions on rebranding their logo. Most of the oil companies head offices are already in London, or Douglas. Moving offices is not a big deal. I'm only going on what Scottish posters have said they have been told. State pensions are not movable. There is no big pension pot, what comes in goes out. It's not invested like a private pension. A UK citizen can claim their pension where ever they are in the world, I hope Scotland is going to offer that same service to it's citizens where ever they are in the world. France, Germany and Ireland are in the EU. Scotland won't be for a while. This is what we mean by Scotland expecting all the benefits of the union whilst rejecting the union. Why should your citizens be automatically be given the right of free movement and employment in a country it wants to be independent from? Apart from the fact that it benefits Scotland? It seems that the Scottish people want their cake and eat it. " I am reading it as they want everyone else's cake to eat and to keep their cake in the tin. | |||
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" Yet another refusal to live in the real world. All of the good and none of the bad cos Eck says so. Free heavy beer and pie suppers in the sky. Claymores, kilts and Gaelic lessons. To whoever quoted my haggis remarks, I rest my case. " From a Scots man | |||
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" I am reading it as they want everyone else's cake to eat and to keep their cake in the tin. " And they are wondering why some people are getting upset. Obviously they want the best for their country, who wouldn't. They seem to want the best for their country at the expense of the rest of the UK. I would prefer it if every detail was sorted out before the referendum, at least they would know what they are voting for then. They have been told no currency union or automatic EU entrance but continue to run headlong into that wall and insisting they will be accepted into these unions as they desire, these unions are about give and take and whilst they see the current union as all take they want the new ones to be all give… Whilst it maybe disheartening to see their tax pounds come south, 10% of their population has come south replaced by 5% going north, maybe the money is going to where it is needed in the UK as a whole. Salmonds working map of Scottish territorial waters does not comply with international laws. A map drawn to respect international law will divide the North Sea economic zone up differently to how they envisage. Google it and look at Germany's sector. It gives an idea on how a countries sector can extend far north of its landmass. | |||
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" ............... Salmonds working map of Scottish territorial waters does not comply with international laws. A map drawn to respect international law will divide the North Sea economic zone up differently to how they envisage. Google it and look at Germany's sector. It gives an idea on how a countries sector can extend far north of its landmass. " Salmond doesn't believe International Law will apply to Scotland. If it doesn't suit him, he'll just change it. | |||
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" ............... Salmonds working map of Scottish territorial waters does not comply with international laws. A map drawn to respect international law will divide the North Sea economic zone up differently to how they envisage. Google it and look at Germany's sector. It gives an idea on how a countries sector can extend far north of its landmass. Salmond doesn't believe International Law will apply to Scotland. If it doesn't suit him, he'll just change it." It seems that way. If they're banking on that income and it doesn't go that way it could be problematic. The maps I have seen that the independent yes people have based their figures on actually show the lines curving around so the encompass the entire oil reserves. It doesn't work like that for countries that are side by side. If they are opposite each other then it will curve along the equidistant line. I can't see the rUK giving up any legitimate claim on any oil reserve that it can make under international law. | |||
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"Does the rest of the UK want trident? The Scots have benefitted until fairly recently with employment on said submarines. The politians seem to think trident keeps them on the top table... Gordon Brown didn't seem to keen on getting shot of them. A million people marched through London against the war on Iraq, a million, and they still didn't listen. It was a Scotsman that lead us into Iraq and Afghanistan lest we forget." I think most right minded people are anti nuclear weapons and anti war right up to the point when they are faced with the realities of pacifism. Have you ever noticed how becoming PM (or US President) ages people? Ever thought why? I think that the truth is that although every fiber in their beings screams for them to sit idly by and save themselves from the weight of responsibility and guilt that goes with sending soldiers sailors and airmen to their deaths they choose to do their duty and protect their fellow countrymen and women. Sad fact is nuclear weapons are the ultimate guarantee of our freedom. | |||
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"The main (only?) concern is that our taxes are not being used to underwrite Scottish Govt spending in a Currency Union. After that i doubt whether many really care whether Scotland stays or goes. One question though, if Scotland's economy is that strong why can she not set up her own central bank? This is a serious question & one i haven't seen answered." this.. ite the elephant in the corner.. the lack of confidence, the unknown what if etc despite the SNP's financial 'case' for independence is clearly exposed by this.. stand on your own two feet by all means but its not the bank of mum and dad.. | |||
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"l stand on your own two feet by all means but its not the bank of mum and dad.. " See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You think because it has the word England in it, that the Bank of England belongs to England. The bank of mum and dad. And you wonder why we want to go our own way? | |||
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" In the event of a No vote, the 40% of Scottish people who were Yes voters won't disappear. " Democracy is (in the type which applies for the vote) accepting that the majority have had their say, accept fully the rights of folks to carry on campaigning but there has to be a period of time where another vote will not take place.. not at the whim of one party who are happy to use their position to browbeat the oppsing view.. | |||
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"l stand on your own two feet by all means but its not the bank of mum and dad.. See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You think because it has the word England in it, that the Bank of England belongs to England. The bank of mum and dad. And you wonder why we want to go our own way?" Yet you seem to refuse to understand that the affect on the UK of 5 million voting for independence concerns the remaining 55 million. Should the government and the Bank of England, responsible for all 60 million, make a decision that disadvantages the many in order to please a very few? I don't have a problem with a fair settlement, as in any divorce, but I do have a problem with underwriting the future of a new nation for some indefinite period at the expense of the rest of the wider nation. The rhetoric of Scottish oppression just does not stack up. I'll repeat the point that no-one voted for a coalition government. Scotland has more power than London. I applaud the Scottish Parliament taking the decision to keep education free and making prescriptions free and I would vote for that anywhere. Your oppression by Westminster has enabled you to make these decisions and yet the rest of us not suffering such oppression are unable to make those decisions locally. I hope the referendum gets a full turn out and not the usual apathetic electorate remaining at home. I hope for the remaining UK you get independence and that your country does not face decades or centuries of turmoil because the vote is so close. I also hope you stop blaming Westminster and England in particular for everything that happens to you. | |||
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"l stand on your own two feet by all means but its not the bank of mum and dad.. See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You think because it has the word England in it, that the Bank of England belongs to England. The bank of mum and dad. And you wonder why we want to go our own way?" not talking about the Bank of England which funnily enough i have not mentioned.. talking about the yes campaign being happy to seperate yet have the assets of the remaining parts of the UK as a fallback.. how can any country call itself independent if another country sets interest rates etc..? monetary policy is not my forte but its common sense, surely..? | |||
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" In the event of a No vote, the 40% of Scottish people who were Yes voters won't disappear. Democracy is (in the type which applies for the vote) accepting that the majority have had their say, accept fully the rights of folks to carry on campaigning but there has to be a period of time where another vote will not take place.. not at the whim of one party who are happy to use their position to browbeat the oppsing view.. " That is the point now isn't it? If they yes campaign doesn't win this time it just sees it as the wrong answer and will start campaigning again for the right to self-determine on 20th September thus ignoring the fact that the majority made a decision. | |||
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"I am still waiting to hear something from the yes side on this question..... a) "whats plan b" for currency if the uk does say "no pound sterling"........ interesting that up till 18 months ago, he was calling pound sterling "rotten" and was advocating taking up the euro! so is this what he meant by "temporary arrangement" (damn... those words again!) b) whats "plan b" for EU membership.... because this is what I see happening Scotland : can we have pound sterling please? UK: nope! Scotland: we wont take any of the debt UK: fine.... we will veto membership of the EU until you take on your part of the debt! checkmate........" Plan b? The SNP haven't even a credible plan a. Sure they've a wish list that keeps getting updated but their whole argument reads as though it's been written on the back of a fag packet. | |||
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" In the event of a No vote, the 40% of Scottish people who were Yes voters won't disappear. Democracy is (in the type which applies for the vote) accepting that the majority have had their say, accept fully the rights of folks to carry on campaigning but there has to be a period of time where another vote will not take place.. not at the whim of one party who are happy to use their position to browbeat the oppsing view.. That is the point now isn't it? If they yes campaign doesn't win this time it just sees it as the wrong answer and will start campaigning again for the right to self-determine on 20th September thus ignoring the fact that the majority made a decision." I may have missed it if a 'cooling off' no campaigning period has been specified in the white paper..? | |||
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"Those who keep mentioning Salmond really are showing themselves up to be lacking the basic understanding of the movement in Scotland. Do you think we are all just blindly following the mad leader? It's insulting, simplistic and inaccurate. "Salmond's map of territorial waters?" What utter nonsense is this? Abi, your rhetoric of people in Scotland moving to England smacks of right-wing xenophobia of "foreigners." Do you think those who move to another country simply do so for the benefits? Not to work? If we are all EU citizens then we can move freely. Again, if you actually believe that Scotland will be kicked out of the EU, then you are deluded. You want every detail of to be certain, do you? What world do you live in? Show me the certainties now. Can you guarantee me, right now, that the UK will be in EU in 5 years? No you can't. It is so simplistic so suggest that life is so black and white. Where is the No side's white paper? Where is the clear and detailed layout of what happens to Scotland in the event of a No vote? The basic reason for independence is so that what we want in Scotland, is what we democratically get. Having a bigger democracy only works if we are all thinking the same and we all know that is not the case. The rest of the UK opts for a party who don't believe in free education. Charging for education creates inequality which is why the UK just went from 4th most unequal society in the world, to the 3rd. In Scotland, the SNP promised no charges for further education and the won by a landslide. People here tend to believe if you want the education and you academically reach the standards, you should have it, regardless of how much Daddy earns. Look at the NHS. Devolved in Scotland. In England, it's being sold off to David Cameron's friends and business associates for his own personal gain. The Tory way. Yet they are continually voted in! We do not want to stand for this pish any longer. The debate has, on the whole, improved dramatically since the first few I was involved in. The "anti-English" and "bigot" comments have been few and far between which is refreshing but this idea that Scotland is England's junior partner and somehow we should be grateful for what scraps we are given still remains in places. It appears to be an inherent belief that everything built up is English and we Scots are mere passengers. (How often do you see comments like "Well if they want independence they should have it. But that means complete independence and not getting "our...") Our what? It's ours too. It's probably not something anyone has really considered in too much detail but, now, you are having to consider it. Assets and liabilites are shared. When the relationship breaks down (due to the fact it no longer works) then assets and liabilities are shared out. Nothing belongs to England. It belongs to the UK. We will take our share. It was also refreshing to see an earlier comment that it is probably best independence does happen as the issue won't go away. Correct. Compare that to more simplistic comments about "kicking it into the long grass for another 300 years" which shows an almost childlike understanding of democracy. In the event of a No vote, the 40% of Scottish people who were Yes voters won't disappear. They will continue campaiging and will scrutinise every action taken by the UK government and defend Scotland's interests and if enough people call for another referendum, then democractically there will be one. If this referendum was the other way around and an independent Scotland was being asked to join a union, it would laughed out of parliament in a minute. The simple truth is a country works better when it's future is decided by those who work here." If you want to be independent, cool. And yes everything that has been all of ours will have to be divided. You can call your money what you want. You can have 8% or whatever it is of everything. It seems as though Scotland wants more. Salmond says, if he doesn't get to keep the pound he won't pay the 8% dept... You want to keep all the benefits but none of the pitfalls. You want to keep the free travel and working arrangements etc etc That's not independence for you, or us of you. Picking and choosing the parts of independence you want to benefit yourselves to the overall detriment of the rest of the UK may work for you, but it doesn't for us. It'll meet somewhere in the middle if it happens no doubt, with negotiations when and if they happen. You are leaving two unions, but don't want to except that, even though you have been told? But seem to again want to pick and choose. The only claims to things I've heard in any official manner is from Scotland apart from the two claims about no currency union or EU membership both of which seem to have gone straight over your head and put down as bluster, so I associate claims of Scottish this and that as coming from the Salmond camp. At this moment in time they are just claims, there will be counter claims and no one is going to get everything they want. You keep on like everyone south of the border is a Tory loving bigot, about 70% of us didn't vote Tory. As to xenophobia, not at all. After I had medical treatment in a Belgian hospital I received a bill. Another EU country but a bill none the less. Any UK citizen abroad who has medical treatment will receive a bill. The union has allowed this to not happen in the UK. Why after leaving the union would this continue? | |||
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"l stand on your own two feet by all means but its not the bank of mum and dad.. See this is exactly what I'm talking about. You think because it has the word England in it, that the Bank of England belongs to England. The bank of mum and dad. And you wonder why we want to go our own way?" duncan the whole point is the Bank of England is the UKs central bank and lender of last resort, if you become independent you are no longer part of the UK and therefore no longer get to use the UKs central bank as your lender of last resort. Why do you have such difficulty in understanding such a simple concept? | |||
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"THE BANK OF ENGLAND IS PART OWNED BY SCOTLAND AND THE POUND IS OUR CURRENCY TOO." Not if you leave the Union. It like the protection of the UK armed forces and British passports and membership of the EU, NATO and the UN are things you give up. Its the cost of becoming an Independent Scottish nation. Of course you will be able to apply and I expect get immediate membership of the UN but do not expect the same to be true for either NATO or the EU. I have to add that although you can choose to secede from the UK you cannot force or even expect us to then to continue to support and defend you either economically or militarily. And your failure to comprehend, or unwillingness to acknowledge this does not bode well for an independent Scotland. | |||
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"FAO Surreysensual. My use of the word "oppresion" should have been "aspiration" (auto correct) and was in reposonse to the question "do you think aspiration stops at the border. Apologies." I really don't think I am evading questions. I am really trying to answer each point put to me in turn. See previous post. You ask again why, if we are independent why we need to have a foriegn currency and a foreign bank. As I am explaining a very basic point over and over and you still don't grasp it. I am going to capitalise it. Please don't take this as shouting. I just want you to read it. THE BANK OF ENGLAND IS PART OWNED BY SCOTLAND AND THE POUND IS OUR CURRENCY TOO. Sorry about that. But you need to get it into the brain. England doesn't own it. It's part of the UK and therefore we own it too. It is something that, although we are independent we can still use and this would be mutually beneficial to Scotland and the rUK. If it is refused to us (asset) then it is only fair that we are compensated financially for this loss (debt). Do you think that is unfair?" The Bank of England is the UK central bank and whilst you are part of the UK you have access to that. RBS issues Scottish bank notes but is 80% owned by the British government isn't it? The claims on ownership and entitlement, rather than just assertions it's mine, need to be made clear. | |||
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"If the SNP' own Fiscal Commission - set up to advise in the event of a yes vote - advise that CU is the best & only option for Scotland then how can it be claimed that they are not prepared for a yes vote? " Because you are wrong. They never claimed it was the only option. They claimed it was the best option for both. And although the simplification of the debate means that some people think this finding is Alec Salmond's, it is actually that of numerous experts including Sir James Mirrlees. | |||
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"support and defend you either economically or militarily " No one suppers us economically now. We don't need the uk's supports militarily. The defence budget is a waste of money. | |||
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" The Bank of England is the UK central bank and whilst you are part of the UK you have access to that. RBS issues Scottish bank notes but is 80% owned by the British government isn't it? The claims on ownership and entitlement, rather than just assertions it's mine, need to be made clear. " If you left your partner and they said "I am keeping the house but I want you to still pay the mortgage" how far up their arse would you tell them to ram it? | |||
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"well i feel i need one hell of a lot more information and knowledge on the situation before i will be able to make an informed comment" Yep, me too. Economics isn't my strong point. Though my initial thought is that from a standpoint of identity and representation, Scotland is better off being independent. The way people keep going on about not being able to keep the pound and not being able to join Europe etc makes it sound like Scotland's going to sink into the sea once it's unshackled from the rest of the UK. Just sounds like scaremongering to me. | |||
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"support and defend you either economically or militarily No one suppers us economically now. We don't need the uk's supports militarily. The defence budget is a waste of money." You may not think that when the others come along and start taking your fishing grounds and you are unable to stop them poaching your fish. Not to sure Mr Salmonds harsh words are going to stop unauthorised trawlers helping themselves. | |||
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""IF" Scotland vote YES and gains independence. What would happen if it actually failed in monetary terms ?? Does the UK accept them back and scrap the Scottish parliament ??? Does the UK let them go under and simply take possession of all of its assets ???? Would those left holding the bag claim "it was all Englands fault cos you wouldnt let us use your currency" ????? I for one hope the vote yes.... But once you leave its not like going on holiday,you may not get back in, on the same terms that you left. "Here we go again with this pish. Here is a question, if rUK goes bust, are you actually gonna expect Scotland to bail you out? And another thing, how are you gonna survive without Scotland? Because we can't have you begging for a union again now can we? Now go on, out there into the big bad world. So proud of you. (Wee pat on the head there anaw) | |||
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"support and defend you either economically or militarily No one suppers us economically now. We don't need the uk's supports militarily. The defence budget is a waste of money. You may not think that when the others come along and start taking your fishing grounds and you are unable to stop them poaching your fish. Not to sure Mr Salmonds harsh words are going to stop unauthorised trawlers helping themselves." Haha ok. Right enough. Vote no! | |||
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" The Bank of England is the UK central bank and whilst you are part of the UK you have access to that. RBS issues Scottish bank notes but is 80% owned by the British government isn't it? The claims on ownership and entitlement, rather than just assertions it's mine, need to be made clear. If you left your partner and they said "I am keeping the house but I want you to still pay the mortgage" how far up their arse would you tell them to ram it?" And yet that is exactly what happens in some divorce scenarios for very valid reasons. You are doing a great job holding up the Scottish end on this debate and it's not all on you but as you are the one holding the debate the responses are to your comments. Thanks for keeping it civil. | |||
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""IF" Scotland vote YES and gains independence. What would happen if it actually failed in monetary terms ?? Does the UK accept them back and scrap the Scottish parliament ??? Does the UK let them go under and simply take possession of all of its assets ???? Would those left holding the bag claim "it was all Englands fault cos you wouldnt let us use your currency" ????? I for one hope the vote yes.... But once you leave its not like going on holiday,you may not get back in, on the same terms that you left. "What would give the UK any right to those assets? Show me an independent country, not fuelled with corruption, that has properly and absolutely failed, with nothing left? | |||
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"I do not wish to sound disrespectful to you. Please explain how Scotland would be able to "BAIL OUT" the entire rUK. What planet are you actually living on up there. If you think Scotlands economy is able to sustain not only its self, but also the entire British Isles. You really do need some basic maths lessons." Read his point again | |||
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" Thanks for keeping it civil. " Thank you too! | |||
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" The Bank of England is the UK central bank and whilst you are part of the UK you have access to that. RBS issues Scottish bank notes but is 80% owned by the British government isn't it? The claims on ownership and entitlement, rather than just assertions it's mine, need to be made clear. If you left your partner and they said "I am keeping the house but I want you to still pay the mortgage" how far up their arse would you tell them to ram it? And yet that is exactly what happens in some divorce scenarios for very valid reasons. You are doing a great job holding up the Scottish end on this debate and it's not all on you but as you are the one holding the debate the responses are to your comments. Thanks for keeping it civil. " Aherm! Haven't been snippy with anyone, not even Onny, and that, to be fair, was almost impossible to do. | |||
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"I do not wish to sound disrespectful to you. Please explain how Scotland would be able to "BAIL OUT" the entire rUK. What planet are you actually living on up there. If you think Scotlands economy is able to sustain not only its self, but also the entire British Isles. You really do need some basic maths lessons." Oh dear. I'll leave it. Not worth the thumb strain. | |||
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"I do not wish to sound disrespectful to you. Please explain how Scotland would be able to "BAIL OUT" the entire rUK. What planet are you actually living on up there. If you think Scotlands economy is able to sustain not only its self, but also the entire British Isles. You really do need some basic maths lessons. Oh dear. I'll leave it. Not worth the thumb strain. " I take that as a "not a bloody cue" then. | |||
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" The Bank of England is the UK central bank and whilst you are part of the UK you have access to that. RBS issues Scottish bank notes but is 80% owned by the British government isn't it? The claims on ownership and entitlement, rather than just assertions it's mine, need to be made clear. If you left your partner and they said "I am keeping the house but I want you to still pay the mortgage" how far up their arse would you tell them to ram it? And yet that is exactly what happens in some divorce scenarios for very valid reasons. You are doing a great job holding up the Scottish end on this debate and it's not all on you but as you are the one holding the debate the responses are to your comments. Thanks for keeping it civil. Aherm! Haven't been snippy with anyone, not even Onny, and that, to be fair, was almost impossible to do." Thank you too. | |||
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""IF" Scotland vote YES and gains independence. What would happen if it actually failed in monetary terms ?? Does the UK accept them back and scrap the Scottish parliament ??? Does the UK let them go under and simply take possession of all of its assets ???? Would those left holding the bag claim "it was all Englands fault cos you wouldnt let us use your currency" ????? I for one hope the vote yes.... But once you leave its not like going on holiday,you may not get back in, on the same terms that you left.
Here we go again with this pish.
Here is a question, if rUK goes bust, are you actually gonna expect Scotland to bail you out?
And another thing, how are you gonna survive without Scotland? Because we can't have you begging for a union again now can we? Now go on, out there into the big bad world. So proud of you. (Wee pat on the head there anaw)"...and THAT is exactly why Currency Union with Scotland was laughed out of court. The simple fact is that whilst the UK could potentially bail out a potential Scottish crash, the disparity in the sizes of the respective economies means that Scotland could never bail out a potential UK crash. This means the UK is at a far greater fiscal risk than any benefits offered by such a Ynion & it is only right & prudent that such an idea is rejected. | |||
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"The rUK would have no right to the assets,but any country that lends you money will have. Greece was completely bankrupt and is still struggling to cope. Without hand outs from the EU it would have had nothing left many years ago. " See my post further up about Greece, Czechs etc, not comparable economies. Not even close. | |||
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"support and defend you either economically or militarily No one suppers us economically now. We don't need the uk's supports militarily. The defence budget is a waste of money." Really, well lets look at the part of that I do know about... As you rightly say Scotland makes up about half the landmass of the UK and has considerably more than that of our extremely valuable territorial waters which will on independence pass to Scotland. How will you police them? Where will you find the manpower and money to run a navy and airforce the size of the one the UK can barely support in order to protect those assets? How are you going to protect all those oil rigs, pipelines and coastal installations? Do you think that we are going to give you a third of 3 commando brigade and over half our special forces including all those MAT trained? And even if we did do you really think that you would be able to replace those that leave from your 5 million population when the UK has problems keeping up the numbers with a 55 million manpower pool? I have to say you really are clueless! | |||
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"The rUK would have no right to the assets,but any country that lends you money will have. Greece was completely bankrupt and is still struggling to cope. Without hand outs from the EU it would have had nothing left many years ago. See my post further up about Greece, Czechs etc, not comparable economies. Not even close." I simply answered the questions you posed. I made no comparison to any economies. | |||
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"The rUK would have no right to the assets,but any country that lends you money will have. Greece was completely bankrupt and is still struggling to cope. Without hand outs from the EU it would have had nothing left many years ago. See my post further up about Greece, Czechs etc, not comparable economies. Not even close. I simply answered the questions you posed. I made no comparison to any economies." True, I did say without corruption however. | |||
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" I have to say you really are clueless! " You are welcome to your opinion. It's not for you to worry yourself over. Luckily the people of Scotland are a little more advanced of thinking that yourself so we don't need to worry about random acts of war from surrounding nations and arming ourselves so that we can be considered "one of the big boys" whilst at the same time allowing 1 in 4 children to live in poverty and have 50,000 people using good banks in the 8th richest country in the world. But you guys carry on with the 30 bin defence spending. Cool big guns. By the way, does being independent, in your mind, mean that if you are randomly attacked that everyone else just sits about going "well they left the uk so....feck 'em." I seem to recall a different scenario when Poland was invaded. But carry on. Big shiny missiles. | |||
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"If Scotland were to require a mutual defence pact with say, NATO, she would also be required to keep up a certain military presence. That costs money. It sounds like (again) you expect the UK to stump up to protect Scotland in a potential event just as you expect the BoE to cover any losses your Govt may incur. What's in it for us?" And it looks like (again) you are wrong. Scotland requires no more of a defence budget than 3bn. Thanks for the offer of help. But we've got this. | |||
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" By the way, does being independent, in your mind, mean that if you are randomly attacked that everyone else just sits about going "well they left the uk so....feck 'em." I seem to recall a different scenario when Poland was invaded. But carry on. Big shiny missiles. " The 2 things above are different, in the case of Poland in 39 we had a defense treaty with Poland. Of course when you leave you can ask for one of those too, but dont expect to get it for free! But as for policing your territorial waters and protecting your oil revenue from terrorist attack your dam right! You leave and we will not spill our blood to secure your oil rigs! | |||
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"FAO Surreysensual. My use of the word "oppresion" should have been "aspiration" (auto correct) and was in reposonse to the question "do you think aspiration stops at the border. Apologies." I really don't think I am evading questions. I am really trying to answer each point put to me in turn. See previous post. You ask again why, if we are independent why we need to have a foriegn currency and a foreign bank. As I am explaining a very basic point over and over and you still don't grasp it. I am going to capitalise it. Please don't take this as shouting. I just want you to read it. THE BANK OF ENGLAND IS PART OWNED BY SCOTLAND AND THE POUND IS OUR CURRENCY TOO. Sorry about that. But you need to get it into the brain. England doesn't own it. It's part of the UK and therefore we own it too. It is something that, although we are independent we can still use and this would be mutually beneficial to Scotland and the rUK. If it is refused to us (asset) then it is only fair that we are compensated financially for this loss (debt). Do you think that is unfair?" Thanks for clarifying the aspiration.. on the pound once you leave the Union its not your pound, it goes against every premise of ownership to retain something once you leave an arrangement.. unless of course both parties agree beforehand that that will be the case.. when one party is saying no and the other saying yes then that old adage of 'ownwership is 9/10ths of the law' may tend to apply.. again and without making remarks about the brain, once you leave you have no ownership.. unless, err see above.. Salmond and the rest of the yes have basically decided that what they want is the only course of travel re currency and the possible alternative seems to have been ignored.. what type of forward planning is that.. | |||
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" But as for policing your territorial waters and protecting your oil revenue from terrorist attack your dam right! You leave and we will not spill our blood to secure your oil rigs!" Sir, yes, sir. | |||
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" True, I did say without corruption however. " As all countries in the wirld have corruption in one form or another. Your question is impossible to answer then. Scotlands independence would be just as corrupt, as all others that have people in power. POWER corrupts,absolute power is absolute corruption. | |||
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" on the pound once you leave the Union its not your pound, it goes against every premise of ownership to retain something once you leave an arrangement.. unless of course both parties agree beforehand that that will be the case.. when one party is saying no and the other saying yes then that old adage of 'ownwership is 9/10ths of the law' may tend to apply.. again and without making remarks about the brain, once you leave you have no ownership.. unless, err see above.. Salmond and the rest of the yes have basically decided that what they want is the only course of travel re currency and the possible alternative seems to have been ignored.. what type of forward planning is that.." No they haven't. They are simply going to state their plan A constantly in the same way that Westminster are going to constantly refuse to admit they will agree post yes. That politics and to not see that is naive. Of course there is a plan B. We will use our pound anyway. That's plan B. But you want hear a politician admit that as it loses ground. You won't here the no camp admit that a currency union is desirable (apart from Alistair darling last year but he clearly regrets that now). | |||
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"Has anyone actually read what it says on Scottish notes...... compared to what it says on English notes...." Scotty, what does that mean? Do you mean reading the Scottish forum? | |||
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"Has anyone actually read what it says on Scottish notes...... compared to what it says on English notes.... Scotty, what does that mean? Do you mean reading the Scottish forum? " check out what the words are on an english bank note... and then read what it says on a scottish bank note....
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" But as for policing your territorial waters and protecting your oil revenue from terrorist attack your dam right! You leave and we will not spill our blood to secure your oil rigs! Sir, yes, sir. " There we have it. You seriously expect the people you are rejecting because you will be better off on your own to protect you economically and pick up your defense tab at the same time. And you actually believe that when we tell you its not happening, that if you go your own way we will not protect you from the consequences of your actions that that is us bullying you. I have to say I have always wondered exactly how civil wars start but I am now beginning to really understand. | |||
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"Has anyone actually read what it says on Scottish notes...... compared to what it says on English notes.... Scotty, what does that mean? Do you mean reading the Scottish forum? check out what the words are on an english bank note... and then read what it says on a scottish bank note....
"Ah! Thanks. As I don't have a Scottish note to hand I may have to wait until next week to check that out. | |||
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"Has anyone actually read what it says on Scottish notes...... compared to what it says on English notes.... Scotty, what does that mean? Do you mean reading the Scottish forum? check out what the words are on an english bank note... and then read what it says on a scottish bank note....
Ah! Thanks. As I don't have a Scottish note to hand I may have to wait until next week to check that out.
"I had some until recently (spent them in England )... but hopefully those in the great Kingdom of Scotland will check it out...
Hoping the direction of the thread may getaway from wars and defence
(ps.. should i be thinking about changing my fab name... !!) | |||
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" on the pound once you leave the Union its not your pound, it goes against every premise of ownership to retain something once you leave an arrangement.. unless of course both parties agree beforehand that that will be the case.. when one party is saying no and the other saying yes then that old adage of 'ownwership is 9/10ths of the law' may tend to apply.. again and without making remarks about the brain, once you leave you have no ownership.. unless, err see above.. Salmond and the rest of the yes have basically decided that what they want is the only course of travel re currency and the possible alternative seems to have been ignored.. what type of forward planning is that.. No they haven't. They are simply going to state their plan A constantly in the same way that Westminster are going to constantly refuse to admit they will agree post yes. That politics and to not see that is naive. Of course there is a plan B. We will use our pound anyway. That's plan B. But you want hear a politician admit that as it loses ground. You won't here the no camp admit that a currency union is desirable (apart from Alistair darling last year but he clearly regrets that now). " politically naive is assuming that the Union your leaving will allow you to keep the currency you share as a collective, then basing a large part of the 'sell' to the voters when its not a given.. it could be playing into the hands of a tory chancellor with an election war chest to use to say 'we are a strong party for those who want to stay with us'.. if its a case of him chucking away a few billion knowing that the damage will be much more to the Scottish economy and the concerns that will send to the markets he may go with it.. | |||
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" There we have it. You seriously expect the people you are rejecting because you will be better off on your own to protect you economically and pick up your defense tab at the same time. And you actually believe that when we tell you its not happening, that if you go your own way we will not protect you from the consequences of your actions that that is us bullying you. I have to say I have always wondered exactly how civil wars start but I am now beginning to really understand." No one is asking you to protect us. That's the point. Your utter lack of modern understanding is the issue here. You are living in a different world. Sure, terrorism exists. But they don't attack easy targets. They don't attack small, independent nations who have just taken a democractic decision to distance itself from the UK. They attack the UK. Why do they attack the UK? Because of foreign policy. No one is going to creep up and steal our oil! Who attacked Norway last? Who attacked Ireland? Denmark? These countries manage just fine not being an armed to the teeth super power. The just feed and house their poor instead. Go ahead and be that if you wish. But there isn't a desire for it in Scotland I don't think. Every poll done indicates we wish rid of trident from our waters. So why are they here? | |||
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" Deport all Scot's " Not wishing to give someone capable of penning the above gibberish any attention but there is a rather nasty side to this debate, isn't there? A small minority I know. But it's ugly. Through history there loads of examples of people whose journey to self government was attacked with similar rhetoric. It helps no one and it shames this debate. | |||
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"The single most important thing right now is what happens with the Winter Olympics planning and investments? Silver and Bronze for Ice Sweeping will be lost to GB. " we could divert funding to road sweeping next time it snows, with a special squad based at Heathrow! | |||
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"If Scotland leaves I think England should ditch the rest too and just go it alone. This is the stuff we hate, England thinking they rule over us and are kind to their 'colonies'. You cannot 'ditch' anyone, but you can also opt to cede from the union. None of us are 'yours' to ditch!" Why not? If Scotland can vote for independence from the UK why can't England? My selfish reason for not wanting Scotland to leave is they will take 50+ none Tory MP's out of Westminster making the rest of the uk suffer Tory government more frequently. | |||
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