FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > United We Stand? Independent Scotland a Good or Bad Idea

United We Stand? Independent Scotland a Good or Bad Idea

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I always was under the impression that the United Kigdom was like a big happy nation made of Welsh, Scottish, Irish and English folk... But then obviously it was clear that that was not the case :-/ some of you want to go seprate ways.

So now just wonder how many of you on here think Scotland should or should not go independent? and your rational supporting your vote

(I don't know if I my thoughts count, but I personally feel you all together make a great nation and make the United Kigdom strong - United We Stand! )

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If they wanna go, go. I think they'd be begging to rejoin in a few years.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I believe that the Scottish people should have the right to decide their own future and if the vote is yes to independence then its Goodbye its been emotional and can you shut the Door quietly behind you on the way out, Its a big scary world out there when you first leave the nest but i'm sure you will make new friends eventually

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

i really don't know enough about the subject to make a strong, informed oppinion but it just 'feels' like we'd be stronger as a single nation so i'm with the o.p on this one i think

....i used to live in glasgow for a couple of years and either view on it up there is a real opinion splitter so i'd be interested to see what the general concensus was over a wider cross section of the nation

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

also....would they need to change the look of the union jack as the st andrews cross,or saltire as i think its also called... one of scotlands flags makes up part of the design i think?

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By *riskynriskyCouple over a year ago

Essex.

I think it's more about Alex Salmon trying to get into the history books....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think it's more about Alex Salmon trying to get into the history books...."

I wonder if he will go down with his ship or swim for shore and beg immigration for asylum due to persecution at home

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Hasn't it been said they'll have to change to the euro to??

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Hasn't it been said they'll have to change to the euro to?? "

No because they will be out of the EU and will have to apply to join which will take many years

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Hasn't it been said they'll have to change to the euro to??

No because they will be out of the EU and will have to apply to join which will take many years "

So which currency will they use?? I'm sure I heard something about them being told they won't be able to use the pound, if they go independent.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Personally I will no be voting for independence at the referendum and for various reasons.

Firstly I don't think we could sustain ourselves as unlike small countries in Scandinavia (that the SNP keeps wanting to compare us too) we do not have the same work ethic. There are far too many people in Scotland who are quite happy to sit back and live off benefits.

Another reason is that I don't think we have been furnished with enough clear cut fact of what will happen if we vote yes. There is still too much dubiety over currency, military and taxes etc

A lot of the time it boils down to "better the devil you know" yes the Westminster is shafting us all, but that doesn't mean to say that Holyrood won't do the same and as much as Cameron is a poncy public school twat! Alex Salmond is a fucknugget of the highest order!

I believe that the scottish parliament should have more power and as patriotic as I am I just can not see total independence as a viable option.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think we should stay as one nation, but do not live in Scotland so my opinion is moot. If its a yes vote then good luck to them we will still share an island so we will have to work out a way of getting along as separate nations, take a few hundred years to know if it is the right or wrong move.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Indeed now that some of these issues like EU membership has been confirmed by the European Commission President ie. a 3rd party not Salmond or Westminster tittle tattling, I wonder how many pro in dependant Scots are having a re-think.

Inclined to agree with the above posters thoughts on Salmond wanting to make a name for himself. One things for sure that this whole process will have cost us a lot of money.

No OP I would not like to think Scotland breaks away. I am English through and through, but I feel the UK would not be the same if this happened.

I can't see what anyone would gain from independence... Feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong

This process has brought a couple of issues to light though, that I was not aware of previously. This being the free uni education and free prescriptions. This must be worth billions and I can't understand why or how Scotland has been gifted either. If Scotland don't break away I will certainly be questioning with my MP why this is the case. Perhaps Mr Salmond is doing more harm than good .....

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"Personally I will no be voting for independence at the referendum and for various reasons.

Another reason is that I don't think we have been furnished with enough clear cut fact of what will happen if we vote yes. There is still too much dubiety over currency, military and taxes etc

I believe that the scottish parliament should have more power and as patriotic as I am I just can not see total independence as a viable option.

I note with sadness you say your patriotic and that the Scottish Parliament should have more power... I think in that one little sentiment you sum up what really ails the UK.

For the most part we identify ourselves as English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh rather than BRITISH!

Wonder who really gains from that?

Why do we have 4 regional football teams that claim they are national teams? Could it be that 4 groups of faceless FA leaches get to stick their snouts in the trough?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Indeed now that some of these issues like EU membership has been confirmed by the European Commission President ie. a 3rd party not Salmond or Westminster tittle tattling, I wonder how many pro in dependant Scots are having a re-think.

Inclined to agree with the above posters thoughts on Salmond wanting to make a name for himself. One things for sure that this whole process will have cost us a lot of money.

No OP I would not like to think Scotland breaks away. I am English through and through, but I feel the UK would not be the same if this happened.

I can't see what anyone would gain from independence... Feel free to enlighten me if I'm wrong

How long do you think prescriptions and Uni Education would stay free for though??

A year maybe & then WHAM!!! They whack a price on it once they have independence.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

As a scot i will be voting yes, im not by any means anti british but i think its time for us to do things diffrently. For me i cant back a system where nearly no scots voted for the conservatives and yet we end up with them. We lean to a more left social style of gov and none of the westminster partys can offer that. I also cant side with a political system where all partys (that have a chance of power) agree with spending 1.9 trillion on a new trident nuclear system... especially since i have to live 5 miles away from the current one. The whole salmond making a name thing is a bit thin... let him this has nothing to do with 1 person or 1 party, its about the road of sociaty we want to take and at the moment that road for me that road ends at the boarder. Id also like to add that we arent voting to give every scot a shovel to physicaly sever our selfs from the rest of britain lol as britian is the name of our island we will still be british hell we will still be in the uk as its the political union that would end not the union of the crown.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 20/02/14 04:42:39]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So not currently in uni education or on medication then?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

[Removed by poster at 20/02/14 04:57:42]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Nope its been made very clear that the queen will remain head of state hence we will still be a united kingdom. Britain is what our island is called it was named by the romans dont get me wrong id prefer an elected head of state but for now political seperation will do.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Lots of posts being removed !!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I just think the whole country with these bent politicians is fucked up.

I might do what that bloke did, who now lives on his own little island off the north coast of Scotland. He's claimed it as it's own country/island that doesn't fall under our rule.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Nope its been made very clear that the queen will remain head of state hence we will still be a united kingdom. Britain is what our island is called it was named by the romans dont get me wrong id prefer an elected head of state but for now political seperation will do."

Who has made that clear

Whilst I don't want Scotland to become independent, as far as I and many others are concerned, if they do, we want no half way measures. I'm not prepared as an English taxpayer to continue subsidising anymore. The line will be drawn and Scotland will have to stand on its own two feet.

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By *uywithaSmileMan over a year ago

Rossendale

I think it's a terrible ill concieved idea, and am totally against it. But if it canot be prevented, then it should be as quick as reasonable possible. I suspect though that the nationalists who envisage an independant scotland havnt gone into the fine detail. Who will administer (and pay for) driving licenses and vehicle records? Passports? Mail? Healthcare? Police?

It strikes me that they want to have their cake, and eat someone elses, and that is something that the english should definitely not put up with if they want to dissolve the union.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think it's a terrible ill concieved idea, and am totally against it. But if it canot be prevented, then it should be as quick as reasonable possible. I suspect though that the nationalists who envisage an independant scotland havnt gone into the fine detail. Who will administer (and pay for) driving licenses and vehicle records? Passports? Mail? Healthcare? Police?

It strikes me that they want to have their cake, and eat someone elses, and that is something that the english should definitely not put up with if they want to dissolve the union. "

I think Salmond is far too busy strutting around to be bothered by detail. Quite worrying that this guy had not gone and consulted with the EU for a starter / or if he did, has not gone back to his following to tell them the truth! Hmm cost of administration to apply let alone join EU

. Cost then to change currency. It's all brash ideology.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

Sorry NO you will not be part of the UK or Great Britain. You will be Scotland, you will have your own passports, borders, your own laws, your own tax sytem (including collection and administration), Army, Navy, Air Force and all the rest and your parliament will make all your laws and be responsible for your borders and defense of your interests and waters. You may keep the queen as your head of state as do all commonwealth countries, however I think you will find you will have to apply for membership of the commonwealth (though I cant see a problem there). But like all commonwealth countries you will be independent and you will need your own currency like Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Lol you sub us haha thats a good one you crack on beliving that because that only helps the yes campaign poor wee george is worried about lossing his oil because thanks to labour the pound has no gold reserves to back it up all there is is the natural resourse we have and the london finacial sector and we all now how safe that is(!) Lol but i agree i dont want half measures either i want full seperation.. but what i want is irrelivent all that matters is that scotland does whats best for it, oh and the whole together we are bigger and more powerfull the idea of to big to fail is gone, smaller more sustainable countries with have a better standing in the future... but this is my opinion i know loads will disagree north and south of the boarder all i can do is have the courage of my convictions and do what i think is right.

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By *dub67Man over a year ago

glasgow

I for one will vote yes.

What have we got to loose. We won't get another chance to vote again for another 40 odd years.

I think we will manage to support ourselves. We are a proud nation and should feel good about our country .

The no campaign has not produced anything to make us stay. They say all the negatives of the day

As for the EU. When East Germany fell there was no argument then they just walked in when joining up with west Germany

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

No we wont be a comon weath country silly billy you need to learn the diffrence between a political union and a union of the crown look it up your self for 100 year before the political union we had the crown union with no problems both the yes and no campaign have state that is how it will be. It seems you should read what it is we are voting for

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Will that be the oil that your own islands are fighting against you for?

Yes I think we do sub you. I think you'll be in for a nasty shock if you get your way.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I for one will vote yes.

What have we got to loose. We won't get another chance to vote again for another 40 odd years.

I think we will manage to support ourselves. We are a proud nation and should feel good about our country .

The no campaign has not produced anything to make us stay. They say all the negatives of the day

As for the EU. When East Germany fell there was no argument then they just walked in when joining up with west Germany "

The world has changed since then! You are a proud nation already, why change?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Not at all we get higher allowence of the barnett formula because the resources are ours, you might not think its fair but the goverment that set it up and proff barnett did.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Not at all we get higher allowence of the barnett formula because the resources are ours, you might not think its fair but the goverment that set it up and proff barnett did."

Another crock of shit then lol

"The Barnett formula is said to have "no legal standing or democratic justification",[1] and, being merely a convention, could be changed by the Treasury at will. In recent years, Barnett has called for a review of its long-term viability.[2]"

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Yes and the queen can constatualy (apoligies for spelling lol) declare war at any time however back lash would obviosly prevent that the same is said for the barrnet formula and if that wasnt the case why arent we getting threatend with that as well.. because westminster nows that would be a step to far and would gift the yes side there win

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Dunno. I think media coverage in England has been piss poor. I hope that you guys are being better informed than we are!!

Good luck either way

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Dont get me wrong we are all brothers and sisters of britain.... theres just nothing wrong with living beside each other as apose the being forced into a situations that can bread resentment the barnett formula being a good example of this or how about the ship yard workers that all lost there jobs down south, everyone of the interviewed blamed the scots. no political union, no more situations like those.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Let them go but the pound is ours!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Really the pound from the bank of england that was established by who... lol. Also yous have never said no to any other country that has left prime example would be ireland who kept the pound for five years i belive it was before they set up there own currancey. But thats right we're scotland we must not deserved the same its not like it was our king the created the uk after all.... oh wait lol yeah it was

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Dont get me wrong we are all brothers and sisters of britain.... theres just nothing wrong with living beside each other as apose the being forced into a situations that can bread resentment the barnett formula being a good example of this or how about the ship yard workers that all lost there jobs down south, everyone of the interviewed blamed the scots. no political union, no more situations like those."

But I don't see a Britain if you go Independent. I see you as a foreign country just like France / Germany.

No half way measures

And don't even get me started on the ship building!! More gifts - hopefully all retracted if the yes vote wins.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"No we wont be a comon weath country silly billy you need to learn the diffrence between a political union and a union of the crown look it up your self for 100 year before the political union we had the crown union with no problems both the yes and no campaign have state that is how it will be. It seems you should read what it is we are voting for"

Funny how Duncan has spent a lot of time in other threads telling me I did not know what I was talking about when I told you that you would be out of Europe and would not be able to keep the pound. Seems he was wrong about that. At some point in the future you will find out that this silly billy is right again and if you are successful and get independence that you and your fellow will have screwed yourselves because your Scottish!

Good luck I think you will need lots of it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Whats wrong with that yes we will be foreign... because we are but canada and america are the same and they dont go to war over boarders every 5 mins. I except that alot of people dont see a diffrance between scots and english but equaly alot do maybe we should embrace those diffrances as equals and not two groups of peoples busy blaming each other for not giving the other a fair deal

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Good luck I think you will need lots of it

I could give a nice long speel but think ill go with no lol and if i was you i wouldnt put so much faith in what goerge-ie has to say... its funny about everything with welfare and the econemy every one say hes a fool but hes utters some crap about scotland and hes your great advisor

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Lloyds Banking Group are to register the TSB in England - not Scotland.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Lloyds Banking Group are to register the TSB in England - not Scotland."

Good for them.... and a pistachio nut shell makes a good helmet for a mouse

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"Lloyds Banking Group are to register the TSB in England - not Scotland.

Good for them.... and a pistachio nut shell makes a good helmet for a mouse"

TSB, the bank that likes to say yes, says fuck that furra gemme o sodjers, we're offski.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Lloyds Banking Group are to register the TSB in England - not Scotland.

Good for them.... and a pistachio nut shell makes a good helmet for a mouse

TSB, the bank that likes to say yes, says fuck that furra gemme o sodjers, we're offski."

Uh hu and did you know that there are actully pankcackes that flip them selfs?? oh no one less dodgie bank for us to worry about how terrible (!)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

And that will be the answer to all, if ya dont like it fuck off to England we dont need anybody because us Scots are proud

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"prime example would be ireland who kept the pound for five years i belive it was before they set up there own currancey."

Wrong, what happened in Ireland was they had their own currency (called the Irish £) that shadowed the £ but did not have the backing of the Bank of England as the bank of last resort. In fact it was quite funny you could spend British money in Ireland but you couldn't spend Irish money in Britain. I went to school in Ireland and when coming home in the summer had to be careful to ask for English money in my change or I would stuck with it from June to September.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"And that will be the answer to all, if ya dont like it fuck off to England we dont need anybody because us Scots are proud

But they get Sean Connery back!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"And that will be the answer to all, if ya dont like it fuck off to England we dont need anybody because us Scots are proud

Em... no if a bank wants to go to england then i say why not its there choice its just not going to change what im voting for, im not daft london is a finacial center of the world so it would make sence for a bank to want to be close to it on the same hand london is a fine-ly stacked house of cards and i wouldnt want to be near it if or when it collapses.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

From one of your previous comments it seems that your voting for political independence, well im sorry but politicians dont make jobs or put food on the table corporations do, if they leave then the finest politicians in the world wont make it work

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

That's it, you show your total lack of understanding. 1 US bank and 2 US building societies went tits up in 2008 and nearly took out the whole worlds economy and you think that you will be safe north of Hadrian's Wall if London collapses! If you had any sense you would be looking more influence in London rather than demanding none! Eventually you will become aware of what you are trying to throw away but not before it is lost to you.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Utter b.s of the highest degree a bank does not need to be the center of a country and your a fool if you belive it to be... the further from london we can get the better if you not bothed if we go why try so hard to convince us to stay... seems like someones worried about loseing grip of the last vestules of empire, give up its gone lol

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

There are many financial, economic and political arguments against separation which need careful consideration. When however these are put to the pro-separation group they are receiving an emotional appeal from Salmon and his supporters. They say the "Scots are proud and will not be dictated to by Westminster" and the "English want to steal Scotland's natural resources". They also dismiss statements by the President of the EU about Scotland having to rejoin the EU as "scare mongering" - as if there is any great love of Britain in the EU.

The Scots are a justifiably proud people and are wanted by the English, Welsh and Northern Irish as brothers in Britain. There are fewer Scots in total than people in greater London yet they already have a significant effect on Britain.

I sincerely hope Salmon's personal clammer for power is seen for what it is and the family of nations that is Britain lasts for many more years with Scotland as an essential part.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

Please name just 1 independent country that does not have a lender of last resort that guarantees its currency?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There are many financial, economic and political arguments against separation which need careful consideration. When however these are put to the pro-separation group they are receiving an emotional appeal from Salmon and his supporters. They say the "Scots are proud and will not be dictated to by Westminster" and the "English want to steal Scotland's natural resources". They also dismiss statements by the President of the EU about Scotland having to rejoin the EU as "scare mongering" - as if there is any great love of Britain in the EU.

I sincerely hope Salmon's personal clammer for power is seen for what it is and the family of nations that is Britain lasts for many more years with Scotland as an essential part. "

Fair play i respect your view, i dont personal agree with salmond but i am still voting yes as it isnt about parties tbh i think the most level head answers have came from the greens (pro independance)

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By *U1966Man over a year ago

Devon

If Scotland chooses to vote yes then their on the own with share of the UK national debt no Pound some businesses will choose to relocate to Wales Northern Ireland and England

As to changing the Union Jack sod off its a world recognised emblem

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

".............

It's astonishing the speed at which Yes voters are scurrying to distance themselves from Salmond.

Rats deserting a sinking shit.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

".............

It's astonishing the speed at which Yes voters are scurrying to distance themselves from Salmond.

Rats deserting a sinking shit."

Ive never been a fan not an ego issue i didnt like that he ran off from the party then came bounding back in when the numbers started going up again yes or no has nothing to do with him.... but isnt it funny how all the no voters want to tie him to the yes vote.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

".............

It's astonishing the speed at which Yes voters are scurrying to distance themselves from Salmond.

Rats deserting a sinking shit.

Of course. He's as much a liability as an asset.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

".............

It's astonishing the speed at which Yes voters are scurrying to distance themselves from Salmond.

Rats deserting a sinking shit.

could it be that he has become the Figurehead ? the photogenic one

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

".............

It's astonishing the speed at which Yes voters are scurrying to distance themselves from Salmond.

Rats deserting a sinking shit.

could it be that he has become the Figurehead ? the photogenic one "

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

I picked this up from another forum. Makes interesting reading, maybe Salmond and Sturgeon should take a look.

"Has anyone actually looked at the EU's own website re Countries joining the EU? It poses some interesting questions. I quote

"Becoming a member of the EU is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight. Once an applicant country meets the conditions for membership, it must implement EU rules and regulations in all areas.

Any country that satisfies the conditions for membership can apply. These conditions are known as the ‘Copenhagen criteria’ and include a free-market economy, a stable democracy and the rule of law, and the acceptance of all EU legislation, including of the euro.

A country wishing to join the EU submits a membership application to the Council, which asks the Commission to assess the applicant’s ability to meet the Copenhagen criteria. If the Commission’s opinion is positive, the Council must then agree upon a negotiating mandate. Negotiations are then formally opened on a subject-by-subject basis.

Due to the huge volume of EU rules and regulations each candidate country must adopt as national law, the negotiations take time to complete. The candidates are supported financially, administratively and technically during this pre-accession period."

Note; "Including of the euro". So, if an "independent" Scotland wanted to join the EU, it would have to adopt the Euro. Mr Salmond could NOT retain the £ sterling, even if the rest of the UK allowed him.

Secondly the EU acknowledges the "huge volume of EU rules and regulations each candidate country must adopt as national law"! And Salmond thinks he could have "an independent Scotland in the EU". What an oxymoron!"

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Moron seems appropriate.

The real problem is that Salmond doesn't think the rules apply to him and that just by saying "it will be thus", it will be.

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

Debate on here up to it's usual informed standard I see!

For the tenth time - Scotland is a bigger, richer country than the uk. If we can afford things now then we can afford them afterwards. Plus we get to keep what we over contribute in taxes rather than sending it to westminster.

We are members of the eu and if you think that we will restricted from continuing simply because we democratically chose to leave a state we are bigger and richer than and who are planning an in/out referendum on membership then you are living in an alternative universe. Want to image Scotland getting kicked out the eu? Picture it. How the hell will that work?

And please stop mentioning the euro. On here seems to be the only place it's mentioned. It's impossible. We don't have the criteria. We'll keep our pound, cheers.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"Debate on here up to it's usual informed standard I see!

And please stop mentioning the euro. On here seems to be the only place it's mentioned. It's impossible. We don't have the criteria. We'll keep our pound, cheers. "

Anything else were not allowed to mention?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Debate on here up to it's usual informed standard I see!

And please stop mentioning the euro. On here seems to be the only place it's mentioned. It's impossible. We don't have the criteria. We'll keep our pound, cheers. "

So how come the president of the EU council is saying different ? Or do you trump what he says

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

"Debate on here up to it's usual informed standard I see!

And please stop mentioning the euro. On here seems to be the only place it's mentioned. It's impossible. We don't have the criteria. We'll keep our pound, cheers. "

So the leaders of all three political party's and the governor of the bank of England say you can't have the pound. The rules on EU accession (even if Spain doesn't veto you) say that you must take the Euro. Which bit of that in unclear? or is it just that Salmond says so?

Bigger and richer, but don't meet the criteria

You mean like Greece?

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By *ichaelangelaCouple over a year ago

notts

just another thought, would it make things like passports invalid??

if it will, would it mean they would have to pay to have their passports changed?? would they be able to travel on the uk passport they already have??

and what will happen with the driving license.

maybe a stupid question i know, but one i would like to know an answer to

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"just another thought, would it make things like passports invalid??

if it will, would it mean they would have to pay to have their passports changed?? would they be able to travel on the uk passport they already have??

and what will happen with the driving license.

maybe a stupid question i know, but one i would like to know an answer to"

Good question. Could be very costly indeed. Let's hope the yes voters have got deep pockets.

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By *ichaelangelaCouple over a year ago

notts

also, i understand prescriptions are free in scotland, but would they lose the NHS?? if thaey did it would start to mean expensive medical insurance i would have thought.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"just another thought, would it make things like passports invalid??

if it will, would it mean they would have to pay to have their passports changed?? would they be able to travel on the uk passport they already have??

and what will happen with the driving license.

maybe a stupid question i know, but one i would like to know an answer to"

In the unlikely event of a yes vote, a UK passport will probably be valid till it expires in the normal way of things but people should bear in mind the validity of a passport is as much in the eye of the destination country as it is in the eye of the issuing country.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"just another thought, would it make things like passports invalid??

if it will, would it mean they would have to pay to have their passports changed?? would they be able to travel on the uk passport they already have??

and what will happen with the driving license.

maybe a stupid question i know, but one i would like to know an answer to

Am I correct thinking Scotland and the rest of the UK could also introduce visas if they wished and stop anyone from travelling across borders with any criminal history or if you are undesirable?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"just another thought, would it make things like passports invalid??

if it will, would it mean they would have to pay to have their passports changed?? would they be able to travel on the uk passport they already have??

and what will happen with the driving license.

maybe a stupid question i know, but one i would like to know an answer to

Am I correct thinking Scotland and the rest of the UK could also introduce visas if they wished and stop anyone from travelling across borders with any criminal history or if you are undesirable?"

Why don't we just send them all to Wales

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"just another thought, would it make things like passports invalid??

if it will, would it mean they would have to pay to have their passports changed?? would they be able to travel on the uk passport they already have??

and what will happen with the driving license.

maybe a stupid question i know, but one i would like to know an answer to

Am I correct thinking Scotland and the rest of the UK could also introduce visas if they wished and stop anyone from travelling across borders with any criminal history or if you are undesirable?

Why don't we just send them all to Wales

I was going to say many of the yes voters need to consider this lol

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Any country can introduce border controls, Schengen notwithstanding, as and when they choose.

Bear in mind, borders work both ways and just because one side chooses not to control who leaves, the other side can still choose to control who enters.

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

So how come the president of the EU council is saying different ? Or do you trump what he says

Barosso is a Portugeuse politician. Do you blindly believe what a politician tells you? Even one from another country?

Henry McLeish, former Labour first minister and NO voter dedcribed his remarks as a monumental blunder and said that Scotland's route to the EU will be "straightforward."

Ex-European Court judge Sir David Edward said "There would be a legal obligation to negotiate the outcome to avoid the absurdity that just at the stroke of midnight everything comes to an end"

John Palmer, former political director of the European Policy Centre said of Mr Barroso's comments: "The idea that the Scottish people could be ejected or indefinitely suspended from the EU for opting for national independence is laughable"

James Ker-Lindsay, Senior Research Fellow SE European Politics at London School of Economics said "Barroso stance on Scotland is both wrong and an affront to democratic principles! UK accepts referendum."

Neil Walker Regius Professor at Edinburgh University wrote: "Does he have a legitimate political voice in the debate? Does he speak from a position of legal authority? Or, regardless of his political or legal standing, does he simply have a good insider argument, and one that we should heed? The answer, on all three counts, would seem to be 'no'."

Spain's Foreign Minister confirmed that his country had "no intention of interfering in Scotland's EU membership negotiations in the event of a Yes vote"

So not so much that "my view trumps" barosso's. Just that he is one opinion and there are many qualified others. The fact he likened Scotland to Kosovo in the same breath should alert you to his knowledge on the subject.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's a yes from us. Why be ruled by another country. We should be able to control our own finances etc. we only get a small percentage of the revenue London takes from us.

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

Bigger and richer, but don't meet the criteria

You mean like Greece?"

Where are Greece on the OECD richest nations list. We are 8th. UK is 16th. Where are Greece?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

And as for the whole border etc that's just scare tactics look at Ireland open border or any of the eu countries.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Bigger and richer, but don't meet the criteria

You mean like Greece?

Where are Greece on the OECD richest nations list. We are 8th. UK is 16th. Where are Greece?"

East end of the Med.

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

"also, i understand prescriptions are free in scotland, but would they lose the NHS?? if thaey did it would start to mean expensive medical insurance i would have thought."

No. The nhs in Scotland is already independent. We can't "lose the nhs." (For clarity, please just picture what the nhs is - and then picture it being "lost. In what way would it be "lost?")

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"And as for the whole border etc that's just scare tactics look at Ireland open border or any of the eu countries."

There's still controls at Troon and Cairnryan.

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By *otlovefun42Couple over a year ago

Costa Blanca Spain...

Bigger and richer, but don't meet the criteria

You mean like Greece?

Where are Greece on the OECD richest nations list. We are 8th. UK is 16th. Where are Greece?"

Then you meet the criteria, and Greece will be on your bailout list once you've joined the Euro

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By *ichaelangelaCouple over a year ago

notts

"also, i understand prescriptions are free in scotland, but would they lose the NHS?? if thaey did it would start to mean expensive medical insurance i would have thought.

No. The nhs in Scotland is already independent. We can't "lose the nhs." (For clarity, please just picture what the nhs is - and then picture it being "lost. In what way would it be "lost?")"

it was just a question to help me understand how it will affect both sides of the border

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 20/02/14 10:45:30]

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

it was just a question to help me understand how it will affect both sides of the border"

Ok. It won't affect it at all. As far as Scotland is concerned, whatever we can afford to do now, we can also afford to do after independence. After all it is our taxpayers that pay for everything so that won't change. The only difference will be we will make the decisions that affect us. That's all. Hope that clarifies.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

...........

Barosso is a Portugeuse politician. Do you blindly believe what a politician tells you? Even one from another country?

............"

Salmond is a Scottish politician. Do you blindly believe what a politician tells you? Even one from another planet?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So how come the president of the EU council is saying different ? Or do you trump what he says

Barosso is a Portugeuse politician. Do you blindly believe what a politician tells you? Even one from another country?

Henry McLeish, former Labour first minister and NO voter dedcribed his remarks as a monumental blunder and said that Scotland's route to the EU will be "straightforward."

Ex-European Court judge Sir David Edward said "There would be a legal obligation to negotiate the outcome to avoid the absurdity that just at the stroke of midnight everything comes to an end"

Spain's Foreign Minister confirmed that his country had "no intention of interfering in Scotland's EU membership negotiations in the event of a Yes vote"

As with many posters here, I know very little about the consequences of voting YES, but if Scottish people wish to leave the union and be in charge of there own affairs, I wish them well.

Thanks muchly for informed posts and for bringing a little balance to the debate - I feel a little less worried for the Scottish.... and for one, think (and hope) it'll be okay for all...a significant adjustment of course...but nothing like the Armageddon being envisioned.

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

Salmond is a Scottish politician. Do you blindly believe what a politician tells you? Even one from another planet?"

No. Which I why all my posts are my own opinion. You should read them sometime.

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By *ichaelangelaCouple over a year ago

notts

So how come the president of the EU council is saying different ? Or do you trump what he says

Barosso is a Portugeuse politician. Do you blindly believe what a politician tells you? Even one from another country?

Henry McLeish, former Labour first minister and NO voter dedcribed his remarks as a monumental blunder and said that Scotland's route to the EU will be "straightforward."

Ex-European Court judge Sir David Edward said "There would be a legal obligation to negotiate the outcome to avoid the absurdity that just at the stroke of midnight everything comes to an end"

Spain's Foreign Minister confirmed that his country had "no intention of interfering in Scotland's EU membership negotiations in the event of a Yes vote"

As with many posters here, I know very little about the consequences of voting YES, but if Scottish people wish to leave the union and be in charge of there own affairs, I wish them well.

+1 .... nice post

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

As with many posters here, I know very little about the consequences of voting YES, but if Scottish people wish to leave the union and be in charge of there own affairs, I wish them well.

You are welcome and thanks! I've said before and I genuinely believe this monumental change is going to be best for everyone, including England. A better level of government and perhaps a bit of English pride returning (I always thought it was a shame that Englishness was always drowned in Britishness.)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

...........

Barosso is a Portugeuse politician. Do you blindly believe what a politician tells you? Even one from another country?

............

Salmond is a Scottish politician. Do you blindly believe what a politician tells you? Even one from another planet?"

True, it's better to focus on the varcity of knowledge available on the matters at hand... Difficult with the spin doctoring and posturing on both sides of the argument. Regardless of what Salmond is, the Scottish people are people and if they make this choice, and face some difficulties, i disagree that they shouldnt be supported (so long as the help is within our means) and should simply live with their consequences. The choice they are making appears in good faith and with that in mins, I hope it's successful and brings prosperity.

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By *athfindersCouple over a year ago

Hull

Currently each Scottish person costs the government more that what Scotland produces as a Nation. I believe the figure is somewhere in the region of £2 more per head than what Scotland returns in taxes.

If Scotland were to take independence this approximate overspend would fall onto Scotland as their own Independent Country.

Mr Salmond believes that this will not be a problem as all revenue from the North Sea Oil industry will divert to him.

This is a mislead on his part as the North Sea revenue will be seperated as a percentage of poplulation. Seen as the rest of the UK makes up around 90% of the population, only 10% of the oil revenue would go to Scotland.

This has been confirmed as the clear way to seperate the revenue and it also applies to debt. Scotland will take on 10 % of the deficit of the Old UK.

Application to the following would apply - EU ( and as someone mentioned earlier adoption of the Euro) re application to NATO, UN and the commonwealth among others. Changes to Passports, currency and free prescription, education and health care. All in all a huge financial burden which will be passed onto the tax payer. Salmond has lied to many people and hopes it will not matter once it has independence.

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By *ichaelangelaCouple over a year ago

notts

As with many posters here, I know very little about the consequences of voting YES, but if Scottish people wish to leave the union and be in charge of there own affairs, I wish them well.

just one more question ..... how are england going to go on with things like tennis and curling etc when we will suddenly have no one in the medals once scotland become independant

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think a lot of this is historical.

I'll be voting no, but see myself as Scottish first and British second. (In fact, the line of succession is Glaswegian first, then Scottish, then British). However, I wouldn't expect anything less from anyone else, and have English friends telling me they're surprised as they see it the other way about, British and then English.

However, it does annoy me that historically, the UK as a whole was referred to as England. The Oxford History of England is actually about the history of Britain. There are other examples as well.

I recently read a telegraph article which referred to England and Brits as being from there. I also (for research purposes) consulted the English Defence League website, where they also continually talked about British Muslims and other British things, and not specifically English things, which I would have expected.

I have loads more to say, but hungry so be back after breakfast lol

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

"Currently each Scottish person costs the government more that what Scotland produces as a Nation. I believe the figure is somewhere in the region of £2 more per head than what Scotland returns in taxes.

If Scotland were to take independence this approximate overspend would fall onto Scotland as their own Independent Country.

Mr Salmond believes that this will not be a problem as all revenue from the North Sea Oil industry will divert to him.

This has been confirmed as the clear way to seperate the revenue and it also applies to debt. Scotland will take on 10 % of the deficit of the Old UK.

Difficult to know where to start with this? Did you read it on the back of cereal box?

10% of the oil is Scottish? Good luck with that...

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By *tirling DarkCouple over a year ago

Stirling

Would it not be better to draw a line east to west through England, just north of London and call it the 'North' and then the North gets its independence from the South. No Scotland or Wales, simply the North. Capital can rotate, Cardiff for two years, then Manchester, Glasgow and so on.

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By *athfindersCouple over a year ago

Hull

If Scotland were to take independence this approximate overspend would fall onto Scotland as their own Independent Country.

Mr Salmond believes that this will not be a problem as all revenue from the North Sea Oil industry will divert to him.

This has been confirmed as the clear way to seperate the revenue and it also applies to debt. Scotland will take on 10 % of the deficit of the Old UK.

Difficult to know where to start with this? Did you read it on the back of cereal box?

10% of the oil is Scottish? Good luck with that...

Based on population actually. Office of national statistics.

And thats a percentage of profit share and not nationality share numpty.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

English guy working in Scotland offshore checking in.

It's the same old same old, the old school hatred for the auld enemy (England) attempting to justify this irrational dislike.

There's an entire generation of scots who loath the English just because that's how they were brought up.

This breeds a blame culture, which the likes of salmond feeds off of. There's high crime, blame them down south, high unemployment? Blame them down south etc etc.

Also Alex salmond seems to forget, the vast majority if English people hate the Tories, and couldn't care less about the monarchy either.

It's a lose lose situation salmonds getting himself into, if he loses and the scots stay, everybody hates him for bringing it up in the first place. If he goes and Scotland struggles financially? Everybody hates him for causing it. If he Scotland leaves and is financially stronger, he will claim victory but the unionists will hate him for breaking up the union that their forebears fought and suffered and died to make successful.

Scarier still? What about the division it creates amongst the scots? You think Celtic rangers rivalry is bad? Have a look at Northern Ireland, think they know a thing or two about how bad it can get when a nation is divided about its identity.

I love Scotland, I'm from Yorkshire and definitely get treated better than a visiting cockney, but there are facts to observe.

In 2012 Scotland withdrew £11bn more from the union than it paid in. Unemployment is 13% higher up north than down south.

Offshore oil and gas reserves in the north sea WILL diminish in the next 30 years.

The union HAS found huge (100 years potentially) shale reserves off the Falklands, and British petroleum is still the largest oil and gas prospector in Europe (British petroleum, not English, Scottish or welsh)

People need to make an informed choice not gamble on centuries of rivalry.

I wish them well either way

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

Based on population actually. Office of national statistics.

And thats a percentage of profit share and not nationality share numpty."

10% population so we get 10% of the oil. Brilliant.

So can you just point to the documents in law that confirm this? All you are pointing to is statistics which say that Scotland makes up 10% of the UK.

Also, as you are talking about oil that has not been taken out of the ground yet, are you suggesting that it already belongs to the UK? If so, can you let me know how much oil money Ireland paid their former "partners" the UK?

So it must also be true then that if Lativa strike oil tomorrow they will have to pay money to Russia? And if an African country finds gold should what is the arrangements for payment to Britain? And if I find buried treasure in my back garden, do I need to share it between ALL the previous owners of my house, or just the last one.

Or is your point actually bollocks?

Also you point about Scotland costing the UK taxpayer money is false. Please refer to GERS for clarity. You might also find some useful info from a vidoe on youtube called "The economic case for Scottish independence." by Ivan McKee. If you genuinely want to know about the facts, I'd start there.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Everything would be far clearer for voters if they knew how much of the debt would be shared, what the actual currency will be, how the revenue of the natural resources will be divvied up and how much needs to be spent to construct the institutions necessary for Scotland..

I think concrete information about the above is the least the voters are owed.

Too much rhetoric for anyone's opinion to hold water, I feel.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"Everything would be far clearer for voters if they knew how much of the debt would be shared, what the actual currency will be, how the revenue of the natural resources will be divvied up and how much needs to be spent to construct the institutions necessary for Scotland..

I think concrete information about the above is the least the voters are owed.

Too much rhetoric for anyone's opinion to hold water, I feel. "

Salmond will never give facts.

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

I think concrete information about the above is the least the voters are owed.

Too much rhetoric for anyone's opinion to hold water, I feel. "

It's true that clear concrete facts would be good. But this is politics. There is as much chance of the Yes camp stating a plan B (which we all know anyway is to keep the pound) as there is the No camp admitting that on Sept 19th a currency union will be, by far, the most desirable scenario. For either camp to blink first lets the other side win (the battle, if not the war.)

I guess its just up to us to figure it out. But there has been a large amount of people over this last week or so moving to yes after Osbournes involvement. Scots don't appreciate unelected tories coming to Scotland to tell us we can use something that is partly owned by us. If the pound is a strong currency, that is partly down to Scotland. The threats to the debt, although ugly politics, are fair. You can split with someone and tell them you are taking the house but expect them to still pay the mortgage. One or the other. I can't see it coming to that though. The concensus seems to be that we want to pay our share. But that means our fair share of that assets too.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"...... The threats to the debt, although ugly politics, are fair. ......."

There you have it. These are the people who'll stop at nothing to steal your children's country.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

" You might also find some useful info from a vidoe on youtube called "The economic case for Scottish independence." by Ivan McKee. If you genuinely want to know about the facts, I'd start there."

would bet a pound, a euro or an equivelant not yet invented piece of coin that said video is not entirely independent of yes or no bias..?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Recently I actually for the first time heard some yes voters start to think twice about the yes vote!!!

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

would bet a pound, a euro or an equivelant not yet invented piece of coin that said video is not entirely independent of yes or no bias..?"

Why don't you watch it and let me know what you think? The guy is a business analyst and he is analysing the official finances of Scotland in comparison to the UK. Clearly, he is a yes voter but that's surely down to the fact that he understands the figures!!

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By *horltzMan over a year ago

heysham

A yes would be good for brick layers in the border regions , hadrians wall is in a bad state of disrepair

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By *aballeroMan over a year ago

Edenbridge

"also....would they need to change the look of the union jack as the st andrews cross,or saltire as i think its also called... one of scotlands flags makes up part of the design i think?"

You are correct the Saltire is part of the flag, which is more correctly known as the 'Union Flag' Not the jack. The Jack is the jackstaff from which the flag is flown

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A yes would be good for brick layers in the border regions , hadrians wall is in a bad state of disrepair

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"A yes would be good for brick layers in the border regions , hadrians wall is in a bad state of disrepair

Even if it weren't a Historic Monument, it's all in England and would pitch Northumberland into Scotland, in the increasingly unlikely event of a Scotland/ England divorce.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So does the former chancellor of the 'British' treasury. And if you watch his excerpt from BBC parliament, you'll find that he is doubtful about any of Alex salmonds 'facts'

Alex salmond was in the same meeting on Scotland's financial independence viability, and said nothing.

Pretty sure who I'd be trusting.

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

So does the former chancellor of the 'British' treasury. And if you watch his excerpt from BBC parliament, you'll find that he is doubtful about any of Alex salmonds 'facts'

Alex salmond was in the same meeting on Scotland's financial independence viability, and said nothing.

Pretty sure who I'd be trusting.

What ha Alex Salmond for to do with this? Not sure what the relevance is there, sorry.

What did you think of the video? Any points you thought were incorrect?

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By *aballeroMan over a year ago

Edenbridge

Bigger and richer, but don't meet the criteria

You mean like Greece?

Where are Greece on the OECD richest nations list. We are 8th. UK is 16th. Where are Greece?"

How does that work? Is Scotland not part of the UK?

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Bigger and richer, but don't meet the criteria

You mean like Greece?

Where are Greece on the OECD richest nations list. We are 8th. UK is 16th. Where are Greece?

How does that work? Is Scotland not part of the UK?"

You just have to close your eyes and 'believe'.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

I haven't read through all of the posts this time.

Scotland is having a vote on this and the rest of us haven't got one. It seems to me the die hard yes campaigners won't be swayed whatever is said.

The rest of the UK should be allowed a vote on the issues that will affect us on this separation. It seems it is not enough for Alec Salmond to hear that sterling is not available to an independent Scotland but if it affects the rest of the remaining UK into the future we should be able to voice our opinion. The UK has sterling and an independent Scotland would not be part of the UK

The EU membership is not up to the remaining UK and it just seems silly to have Salmond and his supporters saying that because they are members now they can continue to be members. The UK has membership and Scotland won't be part of the UK.

The Queen is independently the Queen of Scotland.

The Saltire would have to go from the Union Flag.

The issue of poverty and disenfranchisement from Westminster is not a uniquely Scottish issue in the UK - it applies just as much in London as it does elsewhere in the country.

I would prefer that the UK remains whole, including Scotland but I fear that when the vote comes in as no to independence the rallying cry of "unfair" and "bullied" and "another vote" will only be a year away. That will blight Scotland and the rest of the UK for a very long time.

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

How does that work? Is Scotland not part of the UK?"

Yes but GERS break down the figures and release a report each year for Scottish and UK governments to use and refer to.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think concrete information about the above is the least the voters are owed.

Too much rhetoric for anyone's opinion to hold water, I feel. "

Well said! If an informed choice is made, with all questions answered, then we will respect the decision of our Scottish brothers and sisters.

If it is a case of a gut reaction, William Wallace style, "We hate the bloody Sassenachs!! Vote Yes!! for Scotland and wee King Ec the First" then I will feel for the people of Scotland.

("Wee Ek" is the term of endearment that is used for Alec Salmon in the SNP)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A yes would be good for brick layers in the border regions , hadrians wall is in a bad state of disrepair

And it is in the wrong place!

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

He's been Wee Eck since his days at Lithgae Academy.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well Kate Moss and David Bowie have said you gotta stay - so that's that sorted

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By *udie_GirlTV/TS over a year ago

Rochdale

PEOPLE!

As fascinating as this thread is, it would be a hell of a lot easier to work through if you didn't keep quoting and re quoting vast amounts of previous posts, which are often largely quotes themselves.

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By *uywithaSmileMan over a year ago

Rossendale

Well said Rudie!

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/19/scottish-independence-76-things-apologise

A little light relief.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"PEOPLE!

And largely bollox

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

would bet a pound, a euro or an equivelant not yet invented piece of coin that said video is not entirely independent of yes or no bias..?

his own analysis then..

not impartial..

as no doubt you will say that similar figures from the other side are wrong..

for anyone wanting to look at this objectivelly where is the info?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Does objectivity exist anywhere beyond science...? Even then, studies on occasion, have been called into question..

Each side has its reasons...hopefully both sides are being honourable....

History suggests at least one or both sides are lying....

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

his own analysis then..

not impartial..

as no doubt you will say that similar figures from the other side are wrong..

for anyone wanting to look at this objectivelly where is the info?"

The GERS report. But if, whilst reading it, you find yourself realising we pay more in than we get back, and that Scottish independence actually makes good sense, don't forget you are now no longer impartial and your opinion should not be trusted.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Haven't read the whole thread.

Being united makes us stronger as a whole, but if the majority of people of any of the nations want independence then it's their choice. It does have to be all or nothing though.

There are far more Scots in England and Wales than vice versa. For the percentage that are in receipt of benefits or are unemployed and those on state pensions etc who is paying? Health care for these people? The pro independent Scots don't want to hear about things like the international law on borders would put half the oil fields in what remains of the UK's territorial waters. They expect to be retain their free travel and work rights in what remains of the UK. Defence etc, the list goes on. It seems the Scots who want independence want a very lopsided in their favour independence.

It would seem to be necessary to have a lot of questions answered before people go to vote on independence. I'm not sure if anyone knows what a truly independent Scotland would be like. Maybe the gains will out weight the losses, maybe they won't.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Personally I will no be voting for independence at the referendum and for various reasons.

Another reason is that I don't think we have been furnished with enough clear cut fact of what will happen if we vote yes. There is still too much dubiety over currency, military and taxes etc

I believe that the scottish parliament should have more power and as patriotic as I am I just can not see total independence as a viable option.

Couldn't have put it better...and nice profile

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

"Haven't read the whole thread.

Being united makes us stronger as a whole, but if the majority of people of any of the nations want independence then it's their choice. It does have to be all or nothing though.

Scots living in England will be treated the same as English living in Scotland. I don't see the relevance.

Half the oil fields will not be in England. You are on your own with that one I think.

Being United makes is stronger if we are the same. But if you look at how we vote you will see a divergence. There is a theory amongst some no voters here that voting no and voting labour solves the problem. Thing is, we are and will always be, at the mercy of voters elsewhere in the uk who may wish what we have had for over half my life - a Tory government. We are not a Tory country here. We are by a ukip country either by the way.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I wished i lived in scotland and had the chance of getting rid of this shower of shite in government

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Haven't read the whole thread.

Being united makes us stronger as a whole, but if the majority of people of any of the nations want independence then it's their choice. It does have to be all or nothing though.

Scots living in England will be treated the same as English living in Scotland. I don't see the relevance.

Half the oil fields will not be in England. You are on your own with that one I think.

So international law will not apply to Scotland then?

Go Google the north sea economic zone and look at the map. Note Germany's portion. Read up on international laws on territorial waters.

There are far more Scottish people in the rest of the UK so in effect we support them, yet you moan because all of what Scotland puts in doesn't come back, so you'd only want the money back not the people and their costs… Sounds about right.

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

So international law will not apply to Scotland then?

Go Google the north sea economic zone and look at the map. Note Germany's portion. Read up on international laws on territorial waters.

In what way would you be supporting Scottish people living in Englad? And is it just you who would be supporting them or would they, through their taxes, be supporting English people too? Are you suggesting that Scottish people would not be welcome in England? I'm curious as to where you are going with this.

I'm not going to waste too mcuh time debating how much of North Sea oil is Scottish. It is widely accepted to be 90%. If you think it's a 50/50 split or whatever, then so be it. Think that. There are more pressing issues to debate and I'm sure you are on your own with that logic anyway. Not even Better Together are using that line.

In fact, here is some reading for you on the subject;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070

And from the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/mar/02/oil-revenues-if-scotland-became-independent

"The Geneva agreement on natural resources under the sea dictates that they are divided by the median lines. Most people accept that the Geneva approach is the standard approach. Which gives Scotland 91% of revenues."

"There seems little argument that Scotland would secure its 90% stake in the oil, on the basis of the fields being located below the seabed of its teritorial waters."

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

The question of Scots and their passports will have to answered at some point. I was born in a Commonwealth country but had to apply to be a British Citizen after independence. I had a British passport, with independence I lost it and then had to go through getting it again.

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

"The question of Scots and their passports will have to answered at some point. I was born in a Commonwealth country but had to apply to be a British Citizen after independence. I had a British passport, with independence I lost it and then had to go through getting it again.

They and were it last November in the white paper.

British citizens living in Scotland on day one of independence and Scottish born British citizens living in Scotland will be automatically considered Scottish citizens on independence.

After independence children born in Scotland and children born outside Scotland to at least one parent who has Scottish citizenship will be automatically considered to be Scottish citizens.

A person who has a parent or grandparent who is eligible to be a Scottish citizen will be able to register as a Scottish citizen by descent.

Scottish citizens will be also be EU citizens. Scotland will also allow duel citizenship so for example, enabling people to hold Scottish citizenship and citizenship of the rest of UK

Scottish citizens will be able to apply for Scottish passport from day one of independence with a Scottish passport costing the same as a UK passport.

People will be able to continue using the existing UK passport until it expires They can then choose to get a Scottish passport when the existing passport is due for renewal.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Even with all that we'll never manage to field a decent fitba' team.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If they are that keen on leaving why stop them

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

"Even with all that we'll never manage to field a decent fitba' team."

Doom and gloom. Woe is us. Moan moan moan. We're so shite at everything. Moan moan moan.

Everyone in Scotland knows someone like this. Independence is the cure.

Whenever I read a post by you, I see this guy;

http://youtu.be/dHW-RDJOJTo

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By *0shadesOfFilthMan over a year ago

nearby

Alex Salmond is a cock and hasn't got anything else to talk about.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

So international law will not apply to Scotland then?

Go Google the north sea economic zone and look at the map. Note Germany's portion. Read up on international laws on territorial waters.

In fact, here is some reading for you on the subject;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-20042070

And from the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check-with-polly-curtis/2012/mar/02/oil-revenues-if-scotland-became-independent

"There seems little argument that Scotland would secure its 90% stake in the oil, on the basis of the fields being located below the seabed of its teritorial waters."

Where are Scottish Territorial waters? Got a link for a map? If I'm wrong fair enough. All I can find is a UK territorial waters map and some map Salmon and his mates drew squiggly lines on tho include all the oil fields. All the territorial waters in the rest of the world are different in that they are straight lines extending out to sea at the same angle as the land border… Again it must be different for an independent Scotland. If the remainder of the UK can legitimately claim under international law more than the 10 to 15% Salmond reckons it is, then do you think they will not? Oh go on have it, our treat…

I haven't seen a map that correctly shows what the territorial waters will look like if they are split according to UN international law. So whilst the Geneva conventions correctly say that resources within the nations waters are theirs, where is a map that shows Scotland's waters? Have you seen Germany's waters in the North Sea? Do they follow the line of the land borders out to sea?

If someone retires abroad they claim a UK state pension. Not a Spanish or Thai or where ever pension, Why should Scottish people living abroad expect to be paid by a foreign nation? Because it's in Scotland's interest? Why should we support non UK nationals? We could send you a bill. Up until this point everyone has paid into the same pot, if you want to separate the pot you'll need to start paying your bill out of your own pot.

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

I'm not debating you on the international waters. It's a waste if time and energy. I don't think anyone is seriously thinking of voting no because the oil won't be ours.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not sure I get what you mean. Are you implying that only pure, good old fashioned, honest to goodness British people should be entitled to benefits and nasty foreigners should be, I don't know, kicked out or left on the streets or something? And have you ever read something called the "daily mail?"

Sorry if I'm picking you up wrong though.

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By *etitesaraTV/TS over a year ago

rochdale

English here, so not eligible to vote.

However my gut feeling is that Scotland should leave the Union.

My reasoning is thus, the issue will not go away & should the no vote prevail the rancour & bitterness will last for decades, the SNP will take every opportunity to make relations between Scotland and the UK as difficult as possible. Going now will be better for the UK in the long run, it will remove the uncertainty around the issue and ease the minds of potential investors in the UK.

I have no doubt Scotland can be a successful Independent Nation & that EU membership will eventually be forthcoming - although the terms may not be to everyone's tastes.

So long as the UK doesn't enter a Formal Currency Union then I'm happy to wish them well & wave goodbye.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm not debating you on the international waters. It's a waste if time and energy. I don't think anyone is seriously thinking of voting no because the oil won't be ours.

Sorry if I'm picking you up wrong though. "

Not suggesting they be kicked out on the streets I'm suggesting that as the UK currently pays the pensioners who live abroad their state pensions, then the Scots should do that for their pensioners who choose to live in the UK and further afield if they decide to become independent. The UK can continue to pay it pensioners living in other sovereign states, as it does already, is it bad to expect Scotland to do the same? You won't be an EU state for some time but you want the rest of the UK to treat you as one.

If you're going to be voting on an independent Scotland then shouldn't you be aware of these things before you decide it's a good idea, your BBC link above shows a map drawn by the SNP on what it thinks should be the territorial waters (It says this under the picture), with no regard to international laws.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I wished i lived in scotland and had the chance of getting rid of this shower of shite in government

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By *uncan20004Man over a year ago

Glasgow

The SNP didn't draw any squiggly lined map. As I've said, if you think that 90% if the oil won't be Scotland's then you should tell the no campaign. I'm sure they'd love to know as it sounds like it might be important.

As for benefits for those foreign types - pensions will be paid based on contributions of national insurance over the years. From the point of independence entitlement built up in Scotland will go toward the pension.

So no one loses out and no one pays for someone else's retirement. It's all done fair and square.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Just reading these posts re the pensions, before I go to far, I am not Scottish, don't know enough about the situation to provide a view on yes or no.

Currently the Scottish population pay tax and NI to the same people at the same rates as the rest of the UK.

Surely, if they have paid in then they should have the benefit of the pension they have paid towards whether they are independent or not.

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

They and were it last November in the white paper.

British citizens living in Scotland on day one of independence and Scottish born British citizens living in Scotland will be automatically considered Scottish citizens on independence.

After independence children born in Scotland and children born outside Scotland to at least one parent who has Scottish citizenship will be automatically considered to be Scottish citizens.

A person who has a parent or grandparent who is eligible to be a Scottish citizen will be able to register as a Scottish citizen by descent.

Scottish citizens will be also be EU citizens. Scotland will also allow duel citizenship so for example, enabling people to hold Scottish citizenship and citizenship of the rest of UK

Scottish citizens will be able to apply for Scottish passport from day one of independence with a Scottish passport costing the same as a UK passport.

People will be able to continue using the existing UK passport until it expires They can then choose to get a Scottish passport when the existing passport is due for renewal.

They can't be EU Citizens if Scotland isn't in the EU. I don't know what all of the Scots living in the rest of the UK will do to the immigrations stats.

How can you use a UK passport if you aren't a UK citizen? I lost mine on the day of independence. I was a child so it didn't affect me much at the time but I know my parents had to go through some hoops and drummed it into me to never lose my naturalisation and citizenship papers.

If the UK government has agreed to passport and citizenship agreements you have set out that's great but I don't remember seeing that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Why don't we just bomb the bastards