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Mark Duggan lawfully killed....
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"He put himself in that situation ppl he hang around with etc. One less thug in the world if you ask me. " Do you want your spoon back?  | |||
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"He put himself in that situation ppl he hang around with etc. One less thug in the world if you ask me. "  | |||
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"He put himself in that situation ppl he hang around with etc. One less thug in the world if you ask me. Do you want your spoon back? "yes please  | |||
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"I don't know the details so won't question the decision by 10 of our fellow citizens, ......." There's not really much more to say than that. The people who heard all the evidence have come to a conclusion. Who are we, who didn't, to contradict them? | |||
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"He was not carrying a weapon.... "Does an inquest has the same "beyond reasonable doubt" criteria as a criminal trial? | |||
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"He was not carrying a weapon.... "Nah he was such a angel how could the police think otherwise | |||
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"I don't know the details so won't question the decision by 10 of our fellow citizens, ....... There's not really much more to say than that. The people who heard all the evidence have come to a conclusion. Who are we, who didn't, to contradict them?" | |||
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"He was not carrying a weapon....
Does an inquest has the same "beyond reasonable doubt" criteria as a criminal trial?"I don't know as a jury found that the killing was lawful...regardless if he was a "thug" a family lost a son a brother....so my thoughts are with the family | |||
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"I don't know the details so won't question the decision by 10 of our fellow citizens, ....... There's not really much more to say than that. The people who heard all the evidence have come to a conclusion. Who are we, who didn't, to contradict them?" Saw something that they also raised some issues that need to be looked into when the ISP do what ever they do | |||
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"He was not carrying a weapon....
Does an inquest has the same "beyond reasonable doubt" criteria as a criminal trial?
I don't know as a jury found that the killing was lawful...regardless if he was a "thug" a family lost a son a brother....so my thoughts are with the family "mines with the police officer and hes family. Goes to work to protect you and i and as to take someones life. The guy he shot would sooner or later died by what he lived by...gangs. The officer on the other hand as to deal with scum everyday | |||
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"I don't know the details so won't question the decision by 10 of our fellow citizens, ....... There's not really much more to say than that. The people who heard all the evidence have come to a conclusion. Who are we, who didn't, to contradict them? "
Making a decision based on a news report lasting for a few minutes versus making a decision based on a jury hearing evidence for 3 months?
(It was a 3 month trial wasn't it?)
We don't know enough
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"I don't know the details so won't question the decision by 10 of our fellow citizens, ....... There's not really much more to say than that. The people who heard all the evidence have come to a conclusion. Who are we, who didn't, to contradict them?
Making a decision based on a news report lasting for a few minutes versus making a decision based on a jury hearing evidence for 3 months?
(It was a 3 month trial wasn't it?)
We don't know enough
"This | |||
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"He was not carrying a weapon....
Does an inquest has the same "beyond reasonable doubt" criteria as a criminal trial?
I don't know as a jury found that the killing was lawful...regardless if he was a "thug" a family lost a son a brother....so my thoughts are with the family
mines with the police officer and hes family. Goes to work to protect you and i and as to take someones life. The guy he shot would sooner or later died by what he lived by...gangs. The officer on the other hand as to deal with scum everyday"Lol that's all I have to say... | |||
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"I don't know the details so won't question the decision by 10 of our fellow citizens, ....... There's not really much more to say than that. The people who heard all the evidence have come to a conclusion. Who are we, who didn't, to contradict them?
Making a decision based on a news report lasting for a few minutes versus making a decision based on a jury hearing evidence for 3 months?
(It was a 3 month trial wasn't it?)
We don't know enough
This " Exactly! | |||
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"Wont be long till some bright spark says it was because he was black and the police are racist.. What about the police. There here to protect you..so back them over a thug." What an absolutely sickening attitude. Try not being a sheep and reading what actually happened. A policeman commented and said "Mark Duggan was carrying a gun" - a certain statement (as quoted by the Duggan family lawyer). Then they came to the conclusion that the gun had been thrown away. Which means the police shot an unarmed man. Not to mention they never found his DNA on the weapon. That's six kids growing up fatherless, hating the system, hating the police. Well done police. The sucking up to police makes me feel ill. | |||
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"Not one time in the last twenty years has a policeman/woman been found to be at fault in any of the over 1500 deaths by police armed response or in police custody .. Seems a bit one sided to me. " Not surprising, though. They are always going to protect their own even if it goes against everything the police supposedly stand for. | |||
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"The police didn't come out of this smelling of roses, to be honest. Lots of questions to be answered. Looking at how the jury answered the questions that were asked of them, it looks like it could have gone either way. Most importantly, had the police made a good enough attempt at intelligence gathering prior to the event - no. And was he in possession of a gun when he was shot, again - no...wouldn't have taken much for the decision they made, to be flipped. Sorry about looking at this in an intelligent, analytical fashion, rather than saying the little fucker deserved to die..." Thank god you wasnt on the jury | |||
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"The police didn't come out of this smelling of roses, to be honest. Lots of questions to be answered. Looking at how the jury answered the questions that were asked of them, it looks like it could have gone either way. Most importantly, had the police made a good enough attempt at intelligence gathering prior to the event - no. And was he in possession of a gun when he was shot, again - no...wouldn't have taken much for the decision they made, to be flipped. Sorry about looking at this in an intelligent, analytical fashion, rather than saying the little fucker deserved to die... Thank god you wasnt on the jury "Care to explain why, in a cohesive, semi-intelligent fashion? | |||
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"The police didn't come out of this smelling of roses, to be honest. Lots of questions to be answered. Looking at how the jury answered the questions that were asked of them, it looks like it could have gone either way. Most importantly, had the police made a good enough attempt at intelligence gathering prior to the event - no. And was he in possession of a gun when he was shot, again - no...wouldn't have taken much for the decision they made, to be flipped. Sorry about looking at this in an intelligent, analytical fashion, rather than saying the little fucker deserved to die... Thank god you wasnt on the jury
Care to explain why, in a cohesive, semi-intelligent fashion?"i commented on the wrong thread sorry. But i guess im not clever enough to comment  | |||
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" We don't know enough " The Problem is what we do know from the jury's decision seem to conflict..... we do know, that by a majority of 8-2 the jury ruled that the 2011 shooting was lawful. The jury said they were sure, by the same 8-2 majority, that Duggan did not have a weapon in his hands when police surrounded him. By a majority, the jury concluded he "threw" the gun from a cab he was travelling in when armed officers forced it to stop. so by definition if he was unarmed it can't be lawful...... it can only be lawful if the police officer though he life was in danger... however no weapon, and he was surrounded... | |||
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"I don't know the details so won't question the decision by 10 of our fellow citizens, ....... There's not really much more to say than that. The people who heard all the evidence have come to a conclusion. Who are we, who didn't, to contradict them?
Making a decision based on a news report lasting for a few minutes versus making a decision based on a jury hearing evidence for 3 months?
(It was a 3 month trial wasn't it?)
We don't know enough
This
Exactly!"agreed people are making declarations on both sides without being in full receipt of the facts. | |||
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"Wont be long till some bright spark says it was because he was black and the police are racist.. What about the police. There here to protect you..so back them over a thug." wish there was a massive LIKE button for this comment!!! | |||
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"Not one time in the last twenty years has a policeman/woman been found to be at fault in any of the over 1500 deaths by police armed response or in police custody .. Seems a bit one sided to me. " 1500 in 20 years? Are you sure about that? | |||
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"Not one time in the last twenty years has a policeman/woman been found to be at fault in any of the over 1500 deaths by police armed response or in police custody .. Seems a bit one sided to me. 1500 in 20 years? Are you sure about that? " Yeah, for what it's worth that stat isn't right but the correct one is still a hideously low number. I'll see if I can find it, it was tweeted by a reporter earlier today. | |||
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" But i guess im not clever enough to comment "Evidently, if everything else you've said in this thread is anything to go by! | |||
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"He was not carrying a weapon....
Does an inquest has the same "beyond reasonable doubt" criteria as a criminal trial?
I don't know as a jury found that the killing was lawful...regardless if he was a "thug" a family lost a son a brother....so my thoughts are with the family
mines with the police officer and hes family. Goes to work to protect you and i and as to take someones life. The guy he shot would sooner or later died by what he lived by...gangs. The officer on the other hand as to deal with scum everyday"Ok so if your are saying that Duggan;s death was justifiable because he was a gang member, out of interest what is your opinion on the deaths of Charles de Menezes and Ian Tomlinson? | |||
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" We don't know enough The Problem is what we do know from the jury's decision seem to conflict..... we do know, that by a majority of 8-2 the jury ruled that the 2011 shooting was lawful. The jury said they were sure, by the same 8-2 majority, that Duggan did not have a weapon in his hands when police surrounded him. By a majority, the jury concluded he "threw" the gun from a cab he was travelling in when armed officers forced it to stop. so by definition if he was unarmed it can't be lawful...... it can only be lawful if the police officer though he life was in danger... however no weapon, and he was surrounded... " Said it yourself "if the police officer thought his life was in danger" which at the time maybe he did. Only that officer knows how he felt and only he has to live with what was a split second decision. | |||
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"Ive made my _iews known. Some may agree or not. But its a forum i gave a reply im not here to be abused. If you cant have a adult debate then ill leave you all to fight between yourselfs. Tc all and watch out the police are out to get ya "You're meant to defend your _iews, not just spout backside-licking claptrap before retreating from the thread because everyone is being mean and nasty. | |||
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"He was not carrying a weapon....
Does an inquest has the same "beyond reasonable doubt" criteria as a criminal trial?
I don't know as a jury found that the killing was lawful...regardless if he was a "thug" a family lost a son a brother....so my thoughts are with the family
mines with the police officer and hes family. Goes to work to protect you and i and as to take someones life. The guy he shot would sooner or later died by what he lived by...gangs. The officer on the other hand as to deal with scum everyday
Ok so if your are saying that Duggan;s death was justifiable because he was a gang member, out of interest what is your opinion on the deaths of Charles de Menezes and Ian Tomlinson?
"Easy..potential terrorist, deserved it and anarchist troublemaker, deserved it...next? | |||
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"Not one time in the last twenty years has a policeman/woman been found to be at fault in any of the over 1500 deaths by police armed response or in police custody .. Seems a bit one sided to me. 1500 in 20 years? Are you sure about that? Yeah, for what it's worth that stat isn't right but the correct one is still a hideously low number. I'll see if I can find it, it was tweeted by a reporter earlier today. " Don;t get me wrong, I totally agree that the fact that no police officer in the last 20 years has ever been held accountable and fail to see how anyone can have faith in the police, IPCC or judicial system in regards to cases like this. But totally distorted statistics only weaken and never strengthen the argument. | |||
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"Re. the whole "the full facts" thing... There is no reason (from what I can see) as to why the "full facts" would be kept secret now. The trial is over and a verdict (if you can call it that) has been reached. In fact it is in everyone's best interests that any evidence against Duggan comes out ASAP to quell any potential comeback from the London population (see: riots last time). " i can understand that some people might feel that there may have been a miscarriage of justice, however i fail to see what rioting, thieving and general anarchy has anything to do with mark duggan losing his life the riots around the country were perputrated by mindless thieves who were just looking for an excuse nothing more nothing less anything else would be disrepectful to mark duggan and his family. | |||
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"Re. the whole "the full facts" thing... There is no reason (from what I can see) as to why the "full facts" would be kept secret now. The trial is over and a verdict (if you can call it that) has been reached. In fact it is in everyone's best interests that any evidence against Duggan comes out ASAP to quell any potential comeback from the London population (see: riots last time). i can understand that some people might feel that there may have been a miscarriage of justice, however i fail to see what rioting, thieving and general anarchy has anything to do with mark duggan losing his life the riots around the country were perputrated by mindless thieves who were just looking for an excuse nothing more nothing less anything else would be disrepectful to mark duggan and his family." Absolutely, I agree wholeheartedly but if they released this supposed concrete evidence that some would have us believe exists then they would shut a lot of people up, such as myself. Is there any? I highly doubt it. | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure "If the "evil bastards" had a shooter they would have been shot. | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure "You aim for the body mass. More chance of hitting and less chance of a round going astray and hitting others. Shooting isn't like the movies, especially handguns. High adrenaline also affects shot placement along with movement. | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure "That was poor marksmanship. You don't shoot to wound or disable. If you're discharging a weapon lawfully, you're shooting to kill | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure
If the "evil bastards" had a shooter they would have been shot.
"They were shot but not to kill. only maim.  | |||
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" Said it yourself "if the police officer thought his life was in danger" which at the time maybe he did. Only that officer knows how he felt and only he has to live with what was a split second decision. " I'm not condoning or excusing the police but I actually saw the cars on their way to intercept Duggan. I lived in London for over 5 years and I have NEVER seen police cars going so fast and certainly not at that time of day. Whatever intelligence they had, the urgency was clear, and I can only speculate how full of adrenalin they must have been | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure
That was poor marksmanship. You don't shoot to wound or disable. If you're discharging a weapon lawfully, you're shooting to kill"One , i can understand.....but two of them ?
tho i would have strung them from the nearest lamp post  | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure
If the "evil bastards" had a shooter they would have been shot.
They were shot but not to kill. only maim. "The guys who killed Lee Rigby did the deed with a knife. If they had shot him they would have been fataly wounded. Police don't shoot people armed with knives. People have to realise that if the police suspect you are armed with a firearm, even if the firearm is concealed, then that suspician is enough to get the perpetrator shot. It's easy to understand. Go out armed with a gun and you stand every chance of going home in a box. | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure
That was poor marksmanship. You don't shoot to wound or disable. If you're discharging a weapon lawfully, you're shooting to kill"The term is shoot to stop Onny but I know what you mean. | |||
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"If memory serves, rubber bullets were used to fell Lee Rigby's killers. If the police believed that Mark Duggan was carrying a firearm then they were right to bring weapons with proper loaded ammunition (though quite why they were using hollow point rounds I'm not sure). " No baton rounds were discharged. Taser was. The hollow point rounds are used to avoid over penetration and rounds passing through into other people. | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure
If the "evil bastards" had a shooter they would have been shot.
They were shot but not to kill. only maim.
The guys who killed Lee Rigby did the deed with a knife. If they had shot him they would have been fataly wounded.
Police don't shoot people armed with knives.
People have to realise that if the police suspect you are armed with a firearm, even if the firearm is concealed, then that suspician is enough to get the perpetrator shot.
It's easy to understand. Go out armed with a gun and you stand every chance of going home in a box.
"And go out with a chairleg in a bag and you can go home dead. And even if the inquest says "unlawful killing" still get acquitted. | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure
If the "evil bastards" had a shooter they would have been shot.
They were shot but not to kill. only maim.
The guys who killed Lee Rigby did the deed with a knife. If they had shot him they would have been fataly wounded.
Police don't shoot people armed with knives.
People have to realise that if the police suspect you are armed with a firearm, even if the firearm is concealed, then that suspician is enough to get the perpetrator shot.
It's easy to understand. Go out armed with a gun and you stand every chance of going home in a box.
And go out with a chairleg in a bag and you can go home dead. And even if the inquest says "unlawful killing" still get acquitted."41 Shots... | |||
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"If memory serves, rubber bullets were used to fell Lee Rigby's killers. If the police believed that Mark Duggan was carrying a firearm then they were right to bring weapons with proper loaded ammunition (though quite why they were using hollow point rounds I'm not sure). No baton rounds were discharged. Taser was. The hollow point rounds are used to avoid over penetration and rounds passing through into other people." Memory obviously doesn't serve then cheers for clearing that up. | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure
If the "evil bastards" had a shooter they would have been shot.
They were shot but not to kill. only maim.
The guys who killed Lee Rigby did the deed with a knife. If they had shot him they would have been fataly wounded.
Police don't shoot people armed with knives.
People have to realise that if the police suspect you are armed with a firearm, even if the firearm is concealed, then that suspician is enough to get the perpetrator shot.
It's easy to understand. Go out armed with a gun and you stand every chance of going home in a box.
And go out with a chairleg in a bag and you can go home dead. And even if the inquest says "unlawful killing" still get acquitted."very true, very difficult to defend. Its about state of mind and honestly held beliefs. People make the wrong judgements, but we need to look at the information given to those people leading to them dealing with the confrontation ? There will be numerous badly handled cases by the police,that no-one can defend, but a lot of it is down to the individual as opposed to some conspiracy like others have infered. Not aimed at you crystal/wheels | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure
If the "evil bastards" had a shooter they would have been shot.
They were shot but not to kill. only maim.
The guys who killed Lee Rigby did the deed with a knife. If they had shot him they would have been fataly wounded.
Police don't shoot people armed with knives.
People have to realise that if the police suspect you are armed with a firearm, even if the firearm is concealed, then that suspician is enough to get the perpetrator shot.
It's easy to understand. Go out armed with a gun and you stand every chance of going home in a box.
And go out with a chairleg in a bag and you can go home dead. And even if the inquest says "unlawful killing" still get acquitted."If the police suspect you are in possession of a firearm you stand the chance of getting shot. Police don't play "blind mans bluff" | |||
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" If the police suspect you are in possession of a firearm you stand the chance of getting shot. Police don't play "blind mans bluff"" Best not go out wearing any form of bag then seeing as you can get gunned down for having chair legs on you. | |||
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"turn it round , what if they didn't shoot him , then he shot someone else maybe you or your child, he must have been doing things to be suspected, if you was in the same position would you chose , kill or be killed" Seeing as he didn't have a gun on him I would choose "dont kill him instantly". | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure
If the "evil bastards" had a shooter they would have been shot.
They were shot but not to kill. only maim.
The guys who killed Lee Rigby did the deed with a knife. If they had shot him they would have been fataly wounded.
Police don't shoot people armed with knives.
People have to realise that if the police suspect you are armed with a firearm, even if the firearm is concealed, then that suspician is enough to get the perpetrator shot.
It's easy to understand. Go out armed with a gun and you stand every chance of going home in a box.
And go out with a chairleg in a bag and you can go home dead. And even if the inquest says "unlawful killing" still get acquitted."With a split second to decide a chair leg in a bag can look like a gun in a bag. Down again to officer believing his life is in danger | |||
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" If the police suspect you are in possession of a firearm you stand the chance of getting shot. Police don't play "blind mans bluff" Best not go out wearing any form of bag then seeing as you can get gunned down for having chair legs on you. " Yeah right, grow up mate | |||
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" If the police suspect you are in possession of a firearm you stand the chance of getting shot. Police don't play "blind mans bluff" Best not go out wearing any form of bag then seeing as you can get gunned down for having chair legs on you. Yeah right, grow up mate" Great point, well made. I was obviously taking the piss there but your previous point is farcical. The police could argue anyone could have a firearm concealed on them and use that as their excuse. As it was, Duggan was proven not to have a firearm on him when he was shot, nor could officers locate the firearm after searching for it. So he shouldn't have been shot, surely? | |||
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"turn it round , what if they didn't shoot him , then he shot someone else maybe you or your child, he must have been doing things to be suspected, if you was in the same position would you chose , kill or be killed Seeing as he didn't have a gun on him I would choose "dont kill him instantly". " Seeing as at the time the police couldn't have been sure if he was armed be a very brave or stupid person to go down your way of thinking | |||
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"turn it round , what if they didn't shoot him , then he shot someone else maybe you or your child, he must have been doing things to be suspected, if you was in the same position would you chose , kill or be killed Seeing as he didn't have a gun on him I would choose "dont kill him instantly". Seeing as at the time the police couldn't have been sure if he was armed be a very brave or stupid person to go down your way of thinking "So it's okay to shoot someone because you think they might be armed? Maybe in the USA. | |||
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"To add onto my last post, an eyewitness explained that he saw Mark Duggan surrendering to the police before he was shot. " only one witness, who 'thought' he was surrendering. | |||
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"turn it round , what if they didn't shoot him , then he shot someone else maybe you or your child, he must have been doing things to be suspected, if you was in the same position would you chose , kill or be killed Seeing as he didn't have a gun on him I would choose "dont kill him instantly". Seeing as at the time the police couldn't have been sure if he was armed be a very brave or stupid person to go down your way of thinking
So it's okay to shoot someone because you think they might be armed? Maybe in the USA. "As I said earlier, 41 Shots...look it up!  | |||
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"turn it round , what if they didn't shoot him , then he shot someone else maybe you or your child, he must have been doing things to be suspected, if you was in the same position would you chose , kill or be killed Seeing as he didn't have a gun on him I would choose "dont kill him instantly". Seeing as at the time the police couldn't have been sure if he was armed be a very brave or stupid person to go down your way of thinking
So it's okay to shoot someone because you think they might be armed? Maybe in the USA. "Answer to both your last posts Witness b said it looked like he was surrendering and was holding a mobile phone in his hand he saw this from his 9th floor flat ! And yes it is okay to shoot someone if they might be armed if you beleive your life, the life of someone you are protecting or the life of others is in danger. You will have to prove you thought this though which in this and other cases the officers did | |||
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"turn it round , what if they didn't shoot him , then he shot someone else maybe you or your child, he must have been doing things to be suspected, if you was in the same position would you chose , kill or be killed Seeing as he didn't have a gun on him I would choose "dont kill him instantly". Seeing as at the time the police couldn't have been sure if he was armed be a very brave or stupid person to go down your way of thinking
So it's okay to shoot someone because you think they might be armed? Maybe in the USA. "No its not ok. Its lawful to do so if there's a threat of immediate violence and that can be difficult to define and interpret in a split second judgement. I honestly can't accept any argument that a man was just simply gunned down knowingly. There may have been bad judgements, but no conspiracy. My belief. | |||
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"turn it round , what if they didn't shoot him , then he shot someone else maybe you or your child, he must have been doing things to be suspected, if you was in the same position would you chose , kill or be killed Seeing as he didn't have a gun on him I would choose "dont kill him instantly". Seeing as at the time the police couldn't have been sure if he was armed be a very brave or stupid person to go down your way of thinking
So it's okay to shoot someone because you think they might be armed? Maybe in the USA.
As I said earlier, 41 Shots...look it up!"Missed the context of that. 41 shots in what case ? | |||
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" If the police suspect you are in possession of a firearm you stand the chance of getting shot. Police don't play "blind mans bluff" Best not go out wearing any form of bag then seeing as you can get gunned down for having chair legs on you. Yeah right, grow up mate Great point, well made. I was obviously taking the piss there but your previous point is farcical. The police could argue anyone could have a firearm concealed on them and use that as their excuse. As it was, Duggan was proven not to have a firearm on him when he was shot, nor could officers locate the firearm after searching for it. So he shouldn't have been shot, surely?" I've already said a number of times. If the police suspect you are armed you stand the chance of getting shot. Obviously there must be other mitigating circumstances, ie, if the police had seen the chair leg, and if it wasn't hidden in a bag, the guy wouldn't have got himself shot. There are many records of people robbing banks with their fingers in bags, or sticks of rhubarb in a bag because the people on the opposite end of it "think" its a gun. The police have made it clear that if you do this, you must be accountable for your actions. That's me finished on this thread. I've said my bit  | |||
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" If the police suspect you are in possession of a firearm you stand the chance of getting shot. Police don't play "blind mans bluff" Best not go out wearing any form of bag then seeing as you can get gunned down for having chair legs on you. Yeah right, grow up mate Great point, well made. I was obviously taking the piss there but your previous point is farcical. The police could argue anyone could have a firearm concealed on them and use that as their excuse. As it was, Duggan was proven not to have a firearm on him when he was shot, nor could officers locate the firearm after searching for it. So he shouldn't have been shot, surely? I've already said a number of times. If the police suspect you are armed you stand the chance of getting shot. Obviously there must be other mitigating circumstances, ie, if the police had seen the chair leg, and if it wasn't hidden in a bag, the guy wouldn't have got himself shot. There are many records of people robbing banks with their fingers in bags, or sticks of rhubarb in a bag because the people on the opposite end of it "think" its a gun. The police have made it clear that if you do this, you must be accountable for your actions. That's me finished on this thread. I've said my bit " | |||
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"turn it round , what if they didn't shoot him , then he shot someone else maybe you or your child, he must have been doing things to be suspected, if you was in the same position would you chose , kill or be killed Seeing as he didn't have a gun on him I would choose "dont kill him instantly". Seeing as at the time the police couldn't have been sure if he was armed be a very brave or stupid person to go down your way of thinking
So it's okay to shoot someone because you think they might be armed? Maybe in the USA.
No its not ok. Its lawful to do so if there's a threat of immediate violence and that can be difficult to define and interpret in a split second judgement. I honestly can't accept any argument that a man was just simply gunned down knowingly. There may have been bad judgements, but no conspiracy. My belief."this.. looking back on any situation with the massive benefit of hindsight many months and in this case years later allows every minute detail to be forensically analysed, cross referenced and taken apart all with the 'what does the law, the policy, the procedure' mean for those doing the job at the sharp end.. the human element is a factor too.. | |||
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"turn it round , what if they didn't shoot him , then he shot someone else maybe you or your child, he must have been doing things to be suspected, if you was in the same position would you chose , kill or be killed Seeing as he didn't have a gun on him I would choose "dont kill him instantly". " easy choice sitting hear now having clarified he didn't have a gun, in the heat of the moment the police did not know for certain what weapons he may have been carrying not realy the same is it | |||
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"Remember that guy that was shot in hackney...the one that ended up having a chair leg in a bag..." Remember any of these? On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad. On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey. In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol. On 22 September 1999 Harry Steller, a painter and decorator, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a Sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind. On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a re_iew of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting. In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate). A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing. On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. In leaks from official sources at the time to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer would be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot". Seems they were correct. Seems the police can kill with impunity... Guess they are now the law, not servants of the law. | |||
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"Remember that guy that was shot in hackney...the one that ended up having a chair leg in a bag... Remember any of these? On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad. On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey. In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol. On 22 September 1999 Harry Steller, a painter and decorator, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a Sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind. On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a re_iew of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting. In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate). A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing. On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. In leaks from official sources at the time to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer would be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot". Seems they were correct. Seems the police can kill with impunity... Guess they are now the law, not servants of the law. " Very interesting material. Perhaps we can publish the thousands of incidents during those years that armed police have attended to and peacefully resolved in order to keep this balanced and not sensationalist? | |||
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"Remember that guy that was shot in hackney...the one that ended up having a chair leg in a bag... Remember any of these? On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad. On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey. In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol. On 22 September 1999 Harry Steller, a painter and decorator, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a Sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind. On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a re_iew of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting. In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate). A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing. On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. In leaks from official sources at the time to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer would be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot". Seems they were correct. Seems the police can kill with impunity... Guess they are now the law, not servants of the law. Very interesting material. Perhaps we can publish the thousands of incidents during those years that armed police have attended to and peacefully resolved in order to keep this balanced and not sensationalist?" Of course most situations end with the correct outcome, that's what these people are paid to do. Doesn't mean the discrepancies can't be pointed out. | |||
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"The reason he left the house was to go and collect a real loaded gun. He got shot! That is all" So essentially, the punishment for picking up a gun from somebody should be a death sentence? | |||
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"I don't know the details so won't question the decision by 10 of our fellow citizens, ....... There's not really much more to say than that. The people who heard all the evidence have come to a conclusion. Who are we, who didn't, to contradict them?
Making a decision based on a news report lasting for a few minutes versus making a decision based on a jury hearing evidence for 3 months?
(It was a 3 month trial wasn't it?)
We don't know enough
This "Totally | |||
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"Remember that guy that was shot in hackney...the one that ended up having a chair leg in a bag... Remember any of these? On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad. On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey. In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol. On 22 September 1999 Harry Steller, a painter and decorator, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a Sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind. On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a re_iew of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting. In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate). A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing. On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. In leaks from official sources at the time to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer would be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot". Seems they were correct. Seems the police can kill with impunity... Guess they are now the law, not servants of the law. Very interesting material. Perhaps we can publish the thousands of incidents during those years that armed police have attended to and peacefully resolved in order to keep this balanced and not sensationalist? Of course most situations end with the correct outcome, that's what these people are paid to do. Doesn't mean the discrepancies can't be pointed out. " I quite a agree, it improves the way things are dealt with....if they are looked at objectively. I'm confident mistakes will happen for the duration that human beings exist !  | |||
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"The reason he left the house was to go and collect a real loaded gun. He got shot! That is all So essentially, the punishment for picking up a gun from somebody should be a death sentence? " So you suggest that he be allowed to purchase the illegal firearm and then be allowed to kill (possibly) several innocent people. The police should then ask his (nicely) to stop and then offer him a hug? I bet the planet you live on is lovely this time of year! | |||
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"Remember that guy that was shot in hackney...the one that ended up having a chair leg in a bag... Remember any of these? On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad. On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey. In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol. On 22 September 1999 Harry Steller, a painter and decorator, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a Sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind. On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a re_iew of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting. In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate). A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing. On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. In leaks from official sources at the time to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer would be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot". Seems they were correct. Seems the police can kill with impunity... Guess they are now the law, not servants of the law. Very interesting material. Perhaps we can publish the thousands of incidents during those years that armed police have attended to and peacefully resolved in order to keep this balanced and not sensationalist?" The point, if you go back and read all the above is that they all happen at close range and are all suspiciously similar, as are the excuses and platitudes that get rolled out after each one. I also note with interest that when there is real danger to police they seem to be a lot less cavalier and a lot more cautious. I wonder if this is because they are busy keeping their heads down when up against real weapons but up for a bit of gun play if they see an opportunity to claim "fear of imminent danger". | |||
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"The reason he left the house was to go and collect a real loaded gun. He got shot! That is all So essentially, the punishment for picking up a gun from somebody should be a death sentence? " What good ever comes out of a loaded gun? Essentially- Yes! | |||
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"The reason he left the house was to go and collect a real loaded gun. He got shot! That is all So essentially, the punishment for picking up a gun from somebody should be a death sentence? So you suggest that he be allowed to purchase the illegal firearm and then be allowed to kill (possibly) several innocent people. The police should then ask his (nicely) to stop and then offer him a hug? I bet the planet you live on is lovely this time of year! "I said nothing of the sort. But you can stop these individuals without taking their life. Like I say, six kids with no Dad, six kids growing up to hate the system and the police. Swear there's a Tupac song about this lol. | |||
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"The reason he left the house was to go and collect a real loaded gun. He got shot! That is all So essentially, the punishment for picking up a gun from somebody should be a death sentence? What good ever comes out of a loaded gun? Essentially- Yes!" Thank fuck you don't make the laws in this country. | |||
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"Remember that guy that was shot in hackney...the one that ended up having a chair leg in a bag... Remember any of these? On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad. On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey. In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol. On 22 September 1999 Harry Steller, a painter and decorator, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a Sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind. On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a re_iew of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting. In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate). A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing. On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. In leaks from official sources at the time to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer would be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot". Seems they were correct. Seems the police can kill with impunity... Guess they are now the law, not servants of the law. Very interesting material. Perhaps we can publish the thousands of incidents during those years that armed police have attended to and peacefully resolved in order to keep this balanced and not sensationalist? The point, if you go back and read all the above is that they all happen at close range and are all suspiciously similar, as are the excuses and platitudes that get rolled out after each one. I also note with interest that when there is real danger to police they seem to be a lot less cavalier and a lot more cautious. I wonder if this is because they are busy keeping their heads down when up against real weapons but up for a bit of gun play if they see an opportunity to claim "fear of imminent danger". " Yep spot on, they all ran away at the gruesome Lee Rigby murder, and never attend anything where they may get hurt. | |||
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" So essentially, the punishment for picking up a gun from somebody should be a death sentence? " as you know we dont have the death sentence on the statute, thankfully.. however if your carrying an illegal firearm and intelligence even flawed intelligence suggests you are associated with a part of society that the police have a mandate to protect the majority from the actions of, then there is a higher chance of you being potentially shot.. same with d*unks who get behind the wheel of a vehicle have a greater chance of being involved in an rtc with the potential for injury to yourself or others.. its easy to look at these situations in hindsight without any experience of some of what the people engaged in are doing day in and day out, the vast majority of it without harm or malice... the police are human, they will make mistakes like all of us in our daily lives now and then.. | |||
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"The reason he left the house was to go and collect a real loaded gun. He got shot! That is all So essentially, the punishment for picking up a gun from somebody should be a death sentence? What good ever comes out of a loaded gun? Essentially- Yes! Thank fuck you don't make the laws in this country. " I spent 12 years of my life carrying guns and having guns pointed at me, on more than one occasion by no than kids in Ireland. I know what it's like to have to make split second decisions. They stay with you for life. I have seen the damage they do to the human body and the parents of families on all sides. So still, essentially- yes! | |||
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"turn it round , what if they didn't shoot him , then he shot someone else maybe you or your child, he must have been doing things to be suspected, if you was in the same position would you chose , kill or be killed Seeing as he didn't have a gun on him I would choose "dont kill him instantly". Seeing as at the time the police couldn't have been sure if he was armed be a very brave or stupid person to go down your way of thinking
So it's okay to shoot someone because you think they might be armed? Maybe in the USA.
As I said earlier, 41 Shots...look it up!
Missed the context of that. 41 shots in what case ?"A Bruce Springsteen song based on the true story of Amadou Diallo, who was shot and killed by 4 New York policemen. They claimed he was going for a gun in his pocket after they asked him for ID. All he had in his pocket was his wallet with his ID in. They fired a combined total of 41 shots at him, 19 of which hit him and were acquitted of his murder. | |||
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" We don't know enough The Problem is what we do know from the jury's decision seem to conflict..... we do know, that by a majority of 8-2 the jury ruled that the 2011 shooting was lawful. The jury said they were sure, by the same 8-2 majority, that Duggan did not have a weapon in his hands when police surrounded him. By a majority, the jury concluded he "threw" the gun from a cab he was travelling in when armed officers forced it to stop. so by definition if he was unarmed it can't be lawful...... it can only be lawful if the police officer though he life was in danger... however no weapon, and he was surrounded... " You mean the gun that, despite having being handled and thrown by the deceased, did not have his DNA or prints on it...... | |||
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"turn it round , what if they didn't shoot him , then he shot someone else maybe you or your child, he must have been doing things to be suspected, if you was in the same position would you chose , kill or be killed Seeing as he didn't have a gun on him I would choose "dont kill him instantly". Seeing as at the time the police couldn't have been sure if he was armed be a very brave or stupid person to go down your way of thinking
So it's okay to shoot someone because you think they might be armed? Maybe in the USA.
As I said earlier, 41 Shots...look it up!
Missed the context of that. 41 shots in what case ?
A Bruce Springsteen song based on the true story of Amadou Diallo, who was shot and killed by 4 New York policemen. They claimed he was going for a gun in his pocket after they asked him for ID. All he had in his pocket was his wallet with his ID in. They fired a combined total of 41 shots at him, 19 of which hit him and were acquitted of his murder."Hold my hands up, don't know where to start debating that one. Couple of rounds I could debate perceptual distortion, reactionary gaps etc but 41 rounds ! We have to progress and things are. Not necessarily at the speed we wish but it's moving forward. | |||
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"Remember that guy that was shot in hackney...the one that ended up having a chair leg in a bag... Remember any of these? On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad. On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey. In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol. On 22 September 1999 Harry Steller, a painter and decorator, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a Sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind. On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a re_iew of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting. In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate). A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing. On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. In leaks from official sources at the time to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer would be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot". Seems they were correct. Seems the police can kill with impunity... Guess they are now the law, not servants of the law. " There have obviously been split second decisions that have been wrong as you mention above but look at some of the other cases you mention. An air pistol and BB gun can look very real, a katana big fing sword just wait untill a head is loped of on that one then, table/chair leg in a bag spun round can look like a fire arm. Easy with hindsight to judge but spur of the moment not so | |||
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"He was not carrying a weapon.... ""He was not carrying a weapon.... " Nope but he was known too apparently..and people that come after you, be they the good guys or the bad guys will do the same..ok he threw a gun out of the window..whos to say he didnt have another?.. Live by the sword etc etc.. But in the meantime, a mother has lost a son, kids have lost a father...which is very sad. And, irrespective of the colour of the person in that car, they would have been shot..they would not have held back if it had been a white gangster..whether they over reacted and whether they tried to cover things up is another matter..(they are not always blame free) | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure ". .................................... A man shot and only wounded will always be a threat to your own life. Wounding isn't an option unless you fancy getting shot yourself , and it dont half hurt. !!! Live by the sword and you have got to accept dying by it surely. | |||
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"I would quite happily spend all day ridding society of scum like Duggan. He was a drug dealing violent thug. Pass the Glock! Work to do! "Ridding? Do you mean apprehending them or murdering them? | |||
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"If you are going to fire a shot at an armed man you have to inflict the most damage to stop him.you don't pussyfoot around." This is what i was about to say. Surely if you believe someone is armed you shoot to kill otherwise surely they could still fire their weapon whilst injured which seems to me to be defeating the point really? | |||
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" A Bruce Springsteen song based on the true story of Amadou Diallo, who was shot and killed by 4 New York policemen. They claimed he was going for a gun in his pocket after they asked him for ID. All he had in his pocket was his wallet with his ID in. They fired a combined total of 41 shots at him, 19 of which hit him and were acquitted of his murder." Close enough to ask for ID but missed with 22 rounds WTF? | |||
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"I would quite happily spend all day ridding society of scum like Duggan. He was a drug dealing violent thug. Pass the Glock! Work to do!
Ridding?
Do you mean apprehending them or murdering them?"Shhhh he's an Internet hardman. We are supposed to be too intimidated by his bravado question his credentials! | |||
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"The reason he left the house was to go and collect a real loaded gun. He got shot! That is all So essentially, the punishment for picking up a gun from somebody should be a death sentence? What good ever comes out of a loaded gun? Essentially- Yes! Thank fuck you don't make the laws in this country. I spent 12 years of my life carrying guns and having guns pointed at me, on more than one occasion by no than kids in Ireland. I know what it's like to have to make split second decisions. They stay with you for life. I have seen the damage they do to the human body and the parents of families on all sides. So still, essentially- yes!" I only spent 5 years 207 days in the forces. But in that time I did 3 full 4mth Op Banner tours of NI my 4th being cut short so I could go play hide and seek with the Argies in the Falklands (after which I did not want to play anymore). In all that time I never mistook an airgun or rifle for a real firearm. Nor did I shoot anyone who was unarmed. Maybe this was because I was properly trained and knew that if I did shoot anyone I had better be sure I hit the right person and that they were an immediate threat to myself or others. The rules of engagement (yellow card) were very precise and I knew that if I killed someone outside those rules I would be prosecuted and imprisoned. Funny how in every killing I gave details of none of the conditions that applied the military in NI were fulfilled. Guess that there is a lower standard for the police to use lethal force than for the military. | |||
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"I would quite happily spend all day ridding society of scum like Duggan. He was a drug dealing violent thug. Pass the Glock! Work to do!
Ridding?
Do you mean apprehending them or murdering them?
Shhhh he's an Internet hardman. We are supposed to be too intimidated by his bravado question his credentials! "He's got a Glock, motherfucker! | |||
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"The reason he left the house was to go and collect a real loaded gun. He got shot! That is all So essentially, the punishment for picking up a gun from somebody should be a death sentence? What good ever comes out of a loaded gun? Essentially- Yes! Thank fuck you don't make the laws in this country. I spent 12 years of my life carrying guns and having guns pointed at me, on more than one occasion by no than kids in Ireland. I know what it's like to have to make split second decisions. They stay with you for life. I have seen the damage they do to the human body and the parents of families on all sides. So still, essentially- yes! I only spent 5 years 207 days in the forces. But in that time I did 3 full 4mth Op Banner tours of NI my 4th being cut short so I could go play hide and seek with the Argies in the Falklands (after which I did not want to play anymore). In all that time I never mistook an airgun or rifle for a real firearm. Nor did I shoot anyone who was unarmed. Maybe this was because I was properly trained and knew that if I did shoot anyone I had better be sure I hit the right person and that they were an immediate threat to myself or others. The rules of engagement (yellow card) were very precise and I knew that if I killed someone outside those rules I would be prosecuted and imprisoned. Funny how in every killing I gave details of none of the conditions that applied the military in NI were fulfilled. Guess that there is a lower standard for the police to use lethal force than for the military. " 22 years in forces 7 of them spent in NI also had a little break to as you say play hide and seek down South and to be honest I could mistake an air gun or BB gun in the heat of the moment. That's the reason why BB guns are only sold in bright colours. Our interaction with fire arms was totally different to that of the police. | |||
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"22 years in forces 7 of them spent in NI also had a little break to as you say play hide and seek down South and to be honest I could mistake an air gun or BB gun in the heat of the moment. That's the reason why BB guns are only sold in bright colours. Our interaction with fire arms was totally different to that of the police. " So we were in at the same time... Did you ever do "Aid to the civilian Authorities"? I did, again same rules of engagement as in NI. I was told the reason for the crossover and my inclusion it the list of authorized troops was because (like you) I spent my time either on active service or training for active service (remember "train hard, fight easy") all of which was aimed to push us past anything we would encounter on the battlefield. That meant that my body memory was so ingrained that I could concentrate on target recognition rather than the mechanics of shooting straight! Armed police spend the vast majority of their time pounding their beats (or more accurately sitting on their arses in cars) and dont spend the required time training, as a result from once they have been authorized to use lethal force by a gold commander they are primed to kill and dont have any of the built in safeties the military have. However just because I understand why these killings happen does not mean that I have to condone them or make excuses for the killers and those who put those killers on our streets. The bottom line is our Police should be held to account whenever they fall short of the highest standards not be allowed to get away with things any ordinary member of the public would be prosecuted and convicted for. | |||
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"How many people saying the police did wrong, would still be saying that if he was arrested and relased then went a got a gun and shot an innocent person? And how many would people wouldn't fire if they thought for a split second that your life could end that you never seen your wife or kids again. If you could hold your fire then your a bigger person than most. Personally if I thought I never see my wife again and the person infront of me was going to kill me I'd do everything I possiably could to be the one still breathing. Yes they are trained for this type of thing but not as much as the forces are and even then the natual fight or flight kicks in." | |||
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"22 years in forces 7 of them spent in NI also had a little break to as you say play hide and seek down South and to be honest I could mistake an air gun or BB gun in the heat of the moment. That's the reason why BB guns are only sold in bright colours. Our interaction with fire arms was totally different to that of the police. So we were in at the same time... Did you ever do "Aid to the civilian Authorities"? I did, again same rules of engagement as in NI. I was told the reason for the crossover and my inclusion it the list of authorized troops was because (like you) I spent my time either on active service or training for active service (remember "train hard, fight easy") all of which was aimed to push us past anything we would encounter on the battlefield. That meant that my body memory was so ingrained that I could concentrate on target recognition rather than the mechanics of shooting straight! Armed police spend the vast majority of their time pounding their beats (or more accurately sitting on their arses in cars) and dont spend the required time training, as a result from once they have been authorized to use lethal force by a gold commander they are primed to kill and dont have any of the built in safeties the military have. However just because I understand why these killings happen does not mean that I have to condone them or make excuses for the killers and those who put those killers on our streets. The bottom line is our Police should be held to account whenever they fall short of the highest standards not be allowed to get away with things any ordinary member of the public would be prosecuted and convicted for." Very good post. | |||
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"The reason he left the house was to go and collect a real loaded gun. He got shot! That is all So essentially, the punishment for picking up a gun from somebody should be a death sentence? So you suggest that he be allowed to purchase the illegal firearm and then be allowed to kill (possibly) several innocent people. The police should then ask his (nicely) to stop and then offer him a hug? I bet the planet you live on is lovely this time of year!
I said nothing of the sort. But you can stop these individuals without taking their life.
Like I say, six kids with no Dad, six kids growing up to hate the system and the police. Swear there's a Tupac song about this lol. "Six kids who will grow up knowing full well that their father was a violent thug, six kids who will know that their dad chose a life of violent crime rather than provide for them like a proper member of society. Tupac eh, what a fantastic role model | |||
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"How many people saying the police did wrong, would still be saying that if he was arrested and relased then went a got a gun and shot an innocent person? And how many would people wouldn't fire if they thought for a split second that your life could end that you never seen your wife or kids again. If you could hold your fire then your a bigger person than most. Personally if I thought I never see my wife again and the person infront of me was going to kill me I'd do everything I possiably could to be the one still breathing. Yes they are trained for this type of thing but not as much as the forces are and even then the natual fight or flight kicks in." What he may or may not have gone onto do in at a later date is irrelevant. We cannot remotely condone the notion of killing someone in the street for something they may choose to do at a later date. If they are not trained as well as the forces are then that is a failing of the police and our system. If that is indeed the case (a previous poster touched on this in some detail) then the police should be held to account. Your post may have been intended to support the police position, but if any of your reasoning has merit, it clearly weakens their position. | |||
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" Six kids who will grow up knowing full well that their father was a violent thug, six kids who will know that their dad chose a life of violent crime rather than provide for them like a proper member of society. Tupac eh, what a fantastic role model "We can attempt to take a balanced _iew and try to rationalise what has happened, but to suggest that anyone connected with Duggon who is told that he was shot dead in the street by police whilst unarmed will in some way blame Duggon is naive at best. In time when conspiracy theories are allowed to grow, some will no doubt take a warped _iew and hold Duggon up as some kind of hero, martyr or poster boy for a cause. That's the reality of how these things work out. Worst still, the next 'violent thug' faced by armed police and told to drop the weapon may choose to go out shooting. Whatever Tupac may have said will come way down the pecking order when compared to the lasting effect of a police error of judgement. | |||
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"I don't know the details so won't question the decision by 10 of our fellow citizens, ....... There's not really much more to say than that. The people who heard all the evidence have come to a conclusion. Who are we, who didn't, to contradict them?" Funny, you'd think forum users were calling for a judicial re_iew when the soldier who killed an unarmed man was sentenced, but hey ho. | |||
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"22 years in forces 7 of them spent in NI also had a little break to as you say play hide and seek down South and to be honest I could mistake an air gun or BB gun in the heat of the moment. That's the reason why BB guns are only sold in bright colours. Our interaction with fire arms was totally different to that of the police. So we were in at the same time... Did you ever do "Aid to the civilian Authorities"? I did, again same rules of engagement as in NI. I was told the reason for the crossover and my inclusion it the list of authorized troops was because (like you) I spent my time either on active service or training for active service (remember "train hard, fight easy") all of which was aimed to push us past anything we would encounter on the battlefield. That meant that my body memory was so ingrained that I could concentrate on target recognition rather than the mechanics of shooting straight! Armed police spend the vast majority of their time pounding their beats (or more accurately sitting on their arses in cars) and dont spend the required time training, as a result from once they have been authorized to use lethal force by a gold commander they are primed to kill and dont have any of the built in safeties the military have. However just because I understand why these killings happen does not mean that I have to condone them or make excuses for the killers and those who put those killers on our streets. The bottom line is our Police should be held to account whenever they fall short of the highest standards not be allowed to get away with things any ordinary member of the public would be prosecuted and convicted for." Yes we did spent some time in the same places at the same time and yes I did work with the civil police on the mainland and in NI. We did train hard and that's the point we had the time and money to do so. If an armed officer spent all time training and not policing there would be an uproar about that waste of time and money etc etc. I trained to fight a war against another army as most service personnel did and apart from if you where going to Ireland that is what we did. Even in Ireland as I remember it we where there in a anti terrorist role and not to police the civil population. You also mentioned the rules of engagement as I recall most service personnel saw it as tying one hand behind our backs rather than protecting us. There was a call for an inquest in this case and that's what happened but now because it's not the verdict some people want there's an outcry.in other threads it's been mentioned about british justice and the system we have Beeing the best. It seems that it's only the case if the baying mob gets what it wants. The decision of the court was lawful killing all be it with some grey areas but lawful all the same. Sad that a family lose a son/ father but we weren't there we only know what we read or hear. Only one man knows 100'/, what happend and he has to live with his decision for the rest if his live and good luck to him I don't think he went out that day thinking " bit bored think I'll shoot someone " | |||
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"The rules of engagement (yellow card) were very precise and I knew that if I killed someone outside those rules I would be prosecuted and imprisoned. Funny how in every killing I gave details of none of the conditions that applied the military in NI were fulfilled. Guess that there is a lower standard for the police to use lethal force than for the military. " Just to be clear, according to the yellow card you weren't allowed to open fire until they opened fire on you. I can't see many police officers volunteering to carry guns with those sort of rules in place. | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure
If the "evil bastards" had a shooter they would have been shot.
They were shot but not to kill. only maim.
The guys who killed Lee Rigby did the deed with a knife. If they had shot him they would have been fataly wounded.
Police don't shoot people armed with knives.
People have to realise that if the police suspect you are armed with a firearm, even if the firearm is concealed, then that suspician is enough to get the perpetrator shot.
It's easy to understand. Go out armed with a gun and you stand every chance of going home in a box.
And go out with a chairleg in a bag and you can go home dead. And even if the inquest says "unlawful killing" still get acquitted."I see you were there then ,or did you google that fact | |||
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"If you are going to fire a shot at an armed man you have to inflict the most damage to stop him.you don't pussyfoot around. This is what i was about to say. Surely if you believe someone is armed you shoot to kill otherwise surely they could still fire their weapon whilst injured which seems to me to be defeating the point really?" So how come the police that shot Lee Rigby's killers did not "shoot to kill" ? They were clearly advertising the fact that they were armed with knives and a hand gun whilst charging at the police. This proves the police are more than capable of disabling an armed individual to the point they no longer pose a threat. | |||
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"If you are going to fire a shot at an armed man you have to inflict the most damage to stop him.you don't pussyfoot around. This is what i was about to say. Surely if you believe someone is armed you shoot to kill otherwise surely they could still fire their weapon whilst injured which seems to me to be defeating the point really? So how come the police that shot Lee Rigby's killers did not "shoot to kill" ? They were clearly advertising the fact that they were armed with knives and a hand gun whilst charging at the police. This proves the police are more than capable of disabling an armed individual to the point they no longer pose a threat. " The cops did 'shoot to kill' (or stop) but the marksmanship was poor. Hardly surprising in the circumstances. Half a second to take better aim might have cost the cops their lives. | |||
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"If you are going to fire a shot at an armed man you have to inflict the most damage to stop him.you don't pussyfoot around. This is what i was about to say. Surely if you believe someone is armed you shoot to kill otherwise surely they could still fire their weapon whilst injured which seems to me to be defeating the point really? So how come the police that shot Lee Rigby's killers did not "shoot to kill" ? They were clearly advertising the fact that they were armed with knives and a hand gun whilst charging at the police. This proves the police are more than capable of disabling an armed individual to the point they no longer pose a threat. " It has been proven countless times all around the world that shooting to wound doesn't work. The general policy is to aim for a centre mass shot, because its the largest target (therefore safer for innocent bystanders) and offers the best chance of stopping that person. Many people survive centre mass shots, many don't. And FYI there's a huge chance that he would have died if they'd just shot him in the leg too... | |||
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"The rules of engagement (yellow card) were very precise and I knew that if I killed someone outside those rules I would be prosecuted and imprisoned. Funny how in every killing I gave details of none of the conditions that applied the military in NI were fulfilled. Guess that there is a lower standard for the police to use lethal force than for the military. Just to be clear, according to the yellow card you weren't allowed to open fire until they opened fire on you. I can't see many police officers volunteering to carry guns with those sort of rules in place. " yellow card rules of engagement where as i recall that 'you' (security forces) could use potentially lethal force where you reasonably deemed that an imminent threat to life existed.. that could be a person about to shoot, lob a pipe/petrol bomb, use a car to run down sf personnel.. it was never as clear cut as that as in most circumstances a verbal warning 3 times was required before using said lethal force, the warning was meant to be clear and at the potential target.. going by the card you could'nt just engage a person carrying a weapon, it had to be a direct threat.. being totally honest the 3 warnings were the topic of much discussion before we went to south Armagh, we at that time also felt that our hands were tied to a dgree.. thankfully my only engagement was at a firing point across the border which was very unlawfull but necessary, never had to make that decision at close range.. | |||
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"If you were issuing three verbal warnings when the threat to life was imminent then you clearly DID NOT understand 'Yellow Card' ROE! Police Firearms Teams carry out more training than most military personnel. Suffice to say due to former role and contacts I arranged for a specialist mil unit to use the Police Scotland simulator facility. Over 80% of shoots were declared bad and liable to prosecution. When we ran the mocks fir the police and added in all sorts if 'stupidness' they achieved 99%! Yes that means an innocent person would have been killed but it dues show they train hard and get most decisions right. Much has been made of the recovered gun being metres away. Unless you were there how would you be able to judge when it was thrown away or how. Imagine being told you are looking to stop an armed person. They are known (commas) to have a weapon on their person. They exit a vehicle with their a Moving quickly. In that millisecond could you honestly decide if the gun was coming into the aim being randomly directed or being released? Could you bollocks! Because you weren't there you don't know what you would have done. With all the evidence put before a jury that group of people decided that on the balance if probability'lawful killing' was the appropriate ( note im not saying correct ) verdict. People make mistakes. Duggan left home with an intent to pick up a weapon - mistake. Police intel thought it was actually three automatic weapons - mistake. Police Offucer acting in a split second killed an 'unarmed man' - mistake. Jury reach a verdict-?????? How many people shouted 'I'd have shot the bastard' when Lee Rigbys Kiklers charged armed officers ? Why did he survive ? Because Police Training is such that in extreme stress situation someone made the right call! No family should be losing children to bullets or knives in this country. If only the 'oppressed' realised if you don't carry such tools of trade then the no one else has too either! " | |||
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"If you were issuing three verbal warnings when the threat to life was imminent then you clearly DID NOT understand 'Yellow Card' ROE! Police Firearms Teams carry out more training than most military personnel. Suffice to say due to former role and contacts I arranged for a specialist mil unit to use the Police Scotland simulator facility. Over 80% of shoots were declared bad and liable to prosecution. When we ran the mocks fir the police and added in all sorts if 'stupidness' they achieved 99%! Yes that means an innocent person would have been killed but it dues show they train hard and get most decisions right. Much has been made of the recovered gun being metres away. Unless you were there how would you be able to judge when it was thrown away or how. Imagine being told you are looking to stop an armed person. They are known (commas) to have a weapon on their person. They exit a vehicle with their a Moving quickly. In that millisecond could you honestly decide if the gun was coming into the aim being randomly directed or being released? Could you bollocks! Because you weren't there you don't know what you would have done. With all the evidence put before a jury that group of people decided that on the balance if probability'lawful killing' was the appropriate ( note im not saying correct ) verdict. People make mistakes. Duggan left home with an intent to pick up a weapon - mistake. Police intel thought it was actually three automatic weapons - mistake. Police Offucer acting in a split second killed an 'unarmed man' - mistake. Jury reach a verdict-?????? How many people shouted 'I'd have shot the bastard' when Lee Rigbys Kiklers charged armed officers ? Why did he survive ? Because Police Training is such that in extreme stress situation someone made the right call! No family should be losing children to bullets or knives in this country. If only the 'oppressed' realised if you don't carry such tools of trade then the no one else has too either! "Well said | |||
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"If you were issuing three verbal warnings when the threat to life was imminent then you clearly DID NOT understand 'Yellow Card' ROE! Police Firearms Teams carry out more training than most military personnel. Suffice to say due to former role and contacts I arranged for a specialist mil unit to use the Police Scotland simulator facility. Over 80% of shoots were declared bad and liable to prosecution. When we ran the mocks fir the police and added in all sorts if 'stupidness' they achieved 99%! Yes that means an innocent person would have been killed but it dues show they train hard and get most decisions right. Much has been made of the recovered gun being metres away. Unless you were there how would you be able to judge when it was thrown away or how. Imagine being told you are looking to stop an armed person. They are known (commas) to have a weapon on their person. They exit a vehicle with their a Moving quickly. In that millisecond could you honestly decide if the gun was coming into the aim being randomly directed or being released? Could you bollocks! Because you weren't there you don't know what you would have done. With all the evidence put before a jury that group of people decided that on the balance if probability'lawful killing' was the appropriate ( note im not saying correct ) verdict. People make mistakes. Duggan left home with an intent to pick up a weapon - mistake. Police intel thought it was actually three automatic weapons - mistake. Police Offucer acting in a split second killed an 'unarmed man' - mistake. Jury reach a verdict-?????? How many people shouted 'I'd have shot the bastard' when Lee Rigbys Kiklers charged armed officers ? Why did he survive ? Because Police Training is such that in extreme stress situation someone made the right call! No family should be losing children to bullets or knives in this country. If only the 'oppressed' realised if you don't carry such tools of trade then the no one else has too either! " | |||
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"... How many people shouted 'I'd have shot the bastard' when Lee Rigbys Kiklers charged armed officers ? Why did he survive ? Because Police Training is such that in extreme stress situation someone made the right call! .......... " I can't agree. The 'right call' would have been to shoot both of them dead. Not because of what they'd done to Rigby but because of what they could have done to the police officers in attendance. Thinking back I reckon the cops were firing from a confined space which might well have inhibited their movements. | |||
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"Not one time in the last twenty years has a policeman/woman been found to be at fault in any of the over 1500 deaths by police armed response or in police custody .. Seems a bit one sided to me. " ACAB! | |||
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"Not one time in the last twenty years has a policeman/woman been found to be at fault in any of the over 1500 deaths by police armed response or in police custody .. Seems a bit one sided to me. ACAB! " Untill someone breaks into your house/steals your car or does anything illegal against you then I bet you'll be happy to see them. | |||
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"Why is this being discussed on here this is a swinging site somewhere to leave the real world behind and have fun and naughties!! "It's in the lounge, where you can discuss anything, | |||
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"Not one time in the last twenty years has a policeman/woman been found to be at fault in any of the over 1500 deaths by police armed response or in police custody .. Seems a bit one sided to me. ACAB! Untill someone breaks into your house/steals your car or does anything illegal against you then I bet you'll be happy to see them. "been mugged and had car nicked! No help in either scenario! All bent and corrupt! ACAB! | |||
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"some things, the real truth will NEVER come out, from either side" Unfortunately this is true | |||
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"Not one time in the last twenty years has a policeman/woman been found to be at fault in any of the over 1500 deaths by police armed response or in police custody .. Seems a bit one sided to me. ACAB! Untill someone breaks into your house/steals your car or does anything illegal against you then I bet you'll be happy to see them. been mugged and had car nicked! No help in either scenario! All bent and corrupt! ACAB! "What is ACAB? | |||
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"Not one time in the last twenty years has a policeman/woman been found to be at fault in any of the over 1500 deaths by police armed response or in police custody .. Seems a bit one sided to me. ACAB! Untill someone breaks into your house/steals your car or does anything illegal against you then I bet you'll be happy to see them. been mugged and had car nicked! No help in either scenario! All bent and corrupt! ACAB!
What is ACAB?"ACAB is All coppers are Bast
Disgusting really. | |||
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"Not one time in the last twenty years has a policeman/woman been found to be at fault in any of the over 1500 deaths by police armed response or in police custody .. Seems a bit one sided to me. ACAB! Untill someone breaks into your house/steals your car or does anything illegal against you then I bet you'll be happy to see them. been mugged and had car nicked! No help in either scenario! All bent and corrupt! ACAB! "So no police came out to you at all? I'm assuming that you'v complained about this and have engaged a soliciter to fight for justice | |||
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"Not one time in the last twenty years has a policeman/woman been found to be at fault in any of the over 1500 deaths by police armed response or in police custody .. Seems a bit one sided to me. ACAB! Untill someone breaks into your house/steals your car or does anything illegal against you then I bet you'll be happy to see them. been mugged and had car nicked! No help in either scenario! All bent and corrupt! ACAB!
What is ACAB?
ACAB is All coppers are Bast
Disgusting really. "And false. one of my friends is a police officer and his mammy and daddy are married | |||
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"Remember that guy that was shot in hackney...the one that ended up having a chair leg in a bag... Remember any of these? On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad. On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey. In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol. On 22 September 1999 Harry Steller, a painter and decorator, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a Sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind. On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a re_iew of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting. In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate). A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing. On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. In leaks from official sources at the time to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer would be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot". Seems they were correct. Seems the police can kill with impunity... Guess they are now the law, not servants of the law. Very interesting material. Perhaps we can publish the thousands of incidents during those years that armed police have attended to and peacefully resolved in order to keep this balanced and not sensationalist? The point, if you go back and read all the above is that they all happen at close range and are all suspiciously similar, as are the excuses and platitudes that get rolled out after each one. I also note with interest that when there is real danger to police they seem to be a lot less cavalier and a lot more cautious. I wonder if this is because they are busy keeping their heads down when up against real weapons but up for a bit of gun play if they see an opportunity to claim "fear of imminent danger". Yep spot on, they all ran away at the gruesome Lee Rigby murder, and never attend anything where they may get hurt. "List of British police officers killed in the line of duty This article lists British police officers killed in the line of duty since 1900. Thousands of police officers in Britain are believed to have died during the course of their duties, but this article includes only those who were killed as a direct result of a crime or while attempting to prevent, stop or solve a specific criminal act. The list omits those who died in more common or regular circumstances, such as in road traffic accidents or air raids during the Second World War. The list also omits the more than 300 officers of the former Royal Ulster Constabulary[2] and current Police Service of Northern Ireland who were killed during the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Desmond Morgan Acreman PC 33 Metropolitan Police Service 12 February 1967 Accidentally run over while pursuing suspects Kenneth Adams PC 38 Hampshire Constabulary 17 September 1982 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Ronald Alan Addison PC 24 Metropolitan Police Service 24 January 1960 Collapsed and died while pursuing suspects Raja Bashrat Ahmed PC 35 Greater Manchester Police 31 August 1999 Motorcycle rammed into oncoming traffic by suspect Charles William Alger PC 37 Great Yarmouth Borough Police 18 August 1909 Shot Edgar Gerald Allen PC 41 Metropolitan Police Service 29 March 1958 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit George William Allen PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 28 November 1931 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Jane Philippa Arbuthnot WPC 22 Metropolitan Police Service 17 December 1983 Killed in the Harrods bombing Alison Armitage PC 29 Greater Manchester Police 5 March 2001 Run over by suspect Brian Armstrong PC 31 Gateshead Borough Police 12 September 1966 Stabbed Jack William Avery WRC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 6 July 1940 Stabbed William James Avis, DCM Sgt 47 West Sussex Constabulary 26 February 1942 Shot Robert Bain PC 46 Salford Borough Police 11 July 1906 Assaulted resulting in leg amputation and death William Balkwill Supt 43 Somserset Constabulary 27 July 1900 Fatally injured while restraining violent prisoner Samuel Ballance PC 23 Liverpool City Police 3 September 1911 Died during operation to treat injuries sustained during earlier riot Edward Alexander Barnett, QPM PC 24 City of Glasgow Police 30 December 1969 Shot Andrew Barton Sgt 40 Northumbria Police 15 April 1913 Shot Alan Baxter PC 39 Metropolitan Police Service 20 August 1977 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Allan George Baxter PC 33 Kent County Constabulary 5 June 1951 Shot Allan Beattie PC 26 Cardiff City Police 13 April 1952 Accidentally run over during an arrest Douglas Frederick Beckerson PC 22 Metropolitan Police Service 10 April 1971 Fell through a roof while pursuing suspect Martin Bickersteth Bell PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 3 July 1986 Run over during police pursuit Robert Bentley Sgt 36 City of London Police 17 December 1910 Shot Herbert Berry PC 46 Metropolitan Police Service 3 June 1918 Fatally injured during an arrest Sharon Beshenivsky PC 38 West Yorkshire Police 18 November 2005 Shot Brian John Bishop A/Sgt 37 Essex Police 27 August 1984 Shot Keith Henry Blakelock, QGM PC 40 Metropolitan Police Service 6 October 1985 Stabbed Fiona Bone PC 32 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot Brinley James Booth PC 31 Staffordshire Police 6 June 1946 Bludgeoned during an arrest Lewis Booth PC 50 Lancashire Constabulary 6 January 1905 Collapsed and died during an arrest James Roy Bradley Insp 41 Oxfordshire Constabulary 1 January 1967 Run over Roger Brereton PC 41 Thames Valley Police 19 August 1987 Shot Ian Nigel Broadhurst PC 34 West Yorkshire Police 26 December 2003 Shot Laurence Peter Brown PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 28 August 1990 Shot Ronald Brown PC 20 Liverpool City Police 19 February 1962 Fell through roof while searching for burglar Daniel Buckley PC 32 Northumbria Police 14 February 1982 Fell through a roof while pursuing burglar Bernard Leslie Bull PC 35 Northumbria Police 31 January 1991 Collapsed and died during an arrest Arthur William Burch PC 38 Hertfordshire Constabulary 7 April 1960 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Peter Burnett PC 42 Lancashire Constabulary 7 October 1990 Collapsed while dispersing rioters John Burney Insp 45 Middlesbrough County Borough Police 25 December 1920 Assaulted during violent arrest James Campbell PC 39 City of Glasgow Police 20 January 1919 Shot Gavin Richard Carlton PC 29 West Midlands Police 19 December 1988 Shot Joseph Geoffrey Carroll PC 46 Northumbria Police 13 April 2006 Road traffic accident while transporting a prisoner Adele Yvette Cashman DC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 5 November 2012 Collapsed while pursuing two robbery suspects and later died Harry Cautherley PC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 28 November 1931 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Walter Charles Choat PC 34 City of London Police 17 December 1910 Shot Alfred Clarke PC 43 Worcestershire Constabulary 21 December 1900 Fatally injured in fall while searching for suspect Duncan Clift PC 22 Kent County Constabulary 22 March 1991 Run over Joanne Mary Cochran WPC 20 Thames Valley Police 30 March 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Raymond Anthony Codling Insp 49 Greater Manchester Police 14 September 1989 Shot Glenn Russel Corder PC 18 Durham Constabulary 6 February 1980 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Ian Coward, QPM DC 28 Thames Valley Police 23 July 1971 Shot Sydney Hussey Craik PC 31 Lanarkshire Constabulary 12 September 1932 Accidentally run over while pursuing suspect Thomas Cringles Chief Insp 51 Strathclyde Police 26 August 1976 Collapsed and died dealing with a disturbance William Percy Croft PC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 9 September 1905 Fatally injured in a fall while pursuing burglars Robert George Cross PC 33 Surrey Constabulary 14 July 1977 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Ernest Crowston Sgt 40 Nottingham City Police 7 March 1921 Fatally injured attempting to stop a speeding vehicle William Frank Crouch Sgt 33 Wiltshire Constabulary 31 March 1913 Shot Raymond Davenport PC 35 Merseyside Police 4 July 1981 Run over Evan Thomas Davies PC 31 Cardiff City Police 11 December 1941 Shot William Davies PC 43 Montgomeryshire Constabulary 16 November 1903 Died of heart failure after a violent arrest Brian Dawson Sgt 42 Leicestershire Constabulary 1 September 1975 Shot Peter Leonard Deans PC 25 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 29 December 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Alfred Edward Deeks Insp 44 Metropolitan Police Service 5 May 1912 Collapsed and died while dispersing a nuisance crowd Ian Dibell PC 41 Essex Police 9 July 2012 Shot Stephen John Dodd Insp 34 Metropolitan Police Service 24 December 1983 Killed in the Harrods bombing Edward Roy Dorney PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 1 January 1960 Struck by a train while pursuing suspects Joseph Stewart Drake PC 36 Stirling and Clackmannan Constabulary 11 August 1967 Run over Benjamin Drinkwater PC 26 Bootle Borough Police 1 August 1935 Fell through roof while searching for suspects Andrew Duncan PC 47 Metropolitan Police Service 22 September 2013 Struck by a vehicle in suspected hit-and-run Patrick Dunne PC 44 Metropolitan Police Service 20 October 1993 Shot Francis John East Insp 42 Berkshire Constabulary 4 October 1944 Fatally injured when thrown off a vehicle during an arrest Nathanael Edgar PC 33 Metropolitan Police Service 13 February 1948 Shot Sandra Jane Edwards WPC 28 South Yorkshire Police 10 May 1995 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit John Egerton PC 20 Greater Manchester Police 11 March 1982 Stabbed Yvonne Joyce Fletcher WPC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 17 April 1984 Shot David Fleming Ford PC 22 Metropolitan Police Service 14 March 1929 Fell through a roof while pursuing burglars John William Fordham DC 45 Metropolitan Police Service 26 January 1985 Stabbed William Forth Sgt 34 Northumbria Police 21 March 1993 Stabbed Geoffrey Fox PC 41 Metropolitan Police Service 12 August 1966 Shot Duncan Alexander Fraser PC 46 West Yorkshire Police 15 July 1951 Shot Raymond Free PC 25 Nottinghamshire County Constabulary 1 June 1950 Collapsed after attending a domestic disturbance Edmund Sleigh Frost Sgt 41 Essex Police 8 April 1948 Contracted fatal disease following injury sustained on duty Lewis George Fulton PC 28 Strathclyde Police 17 June 1994 Stabbed Norman Garnham A/DC 25 North Yorkshire Police 2 March 1977 Stabbed George Hillier Garrott PC 27 Strathclyde Police 5 March 1980 Electrocuted while investigating reports of vandalism on a railway Glenn Thomas Goodman SPC 37 North Yorkshire Police 7 June 1992 Shot William Gibson Sgt 44 Dumfries and Galloway Constabulary 22 May 1951 Shot David George Gisborne Insp 36 Metropolitan Police Service 5 August 1974 Collapsed and died after being assaulted in a riot Robert Chenery Gladwell PC 37 Metropolitan Police Service 6 January 1991 Assaulted during an arrest Roger Philip Goad, GC CEO 40 Metropolitan Police Service 25 August 1975 Killed defusing an IRA bomb Alan Ewen Gordon Sgt 38 Grampian Police 10 August 1977 Run over during police pursuit Reginald Charles Grady DC 46 Bristol Constabulary 14 August 1945 Collapsed and died during an arrest Richard Gray PC 43 West Mercia Constabulary 6 May 2007 Shot David Christopher Green PC 20 West Midlands Police 17 July 1975 Stabbed Thomas Green Stn Sgt 51 Metropolitan Police Service 18 June 1919 Bludgeoned during a mob attack on a police station Thomas Ashcroft Grundy PC 30 St. Helens Borough Police 31 January 1914 Collapsed and died during an arrest Charles Phillip Gunter PC 24 Birmingham City Police 26 October 1901 Fatally injured by a thrown brick while attempting to disperse a gang Peter Charles Guthrie, QPM PC 21 Warwickshire & Coventry Constabulary 22 July 1972 Shot George William Gutteridge PC 38 Essex County Constabulary 27 September 1927 Shot David Ian Haigh PC 25 North Yorkshire Police 17 June 1982 Shot Colin John Hall PC 40 West Midlands Police 29 November 1987 Collapsed attending a disturbance George Pickburn Hammond PC 58 Metropolitan Police Service 13 December 1995 Stabbed James Harte PC 38 Leith Burgh Police 4 April 1900 Collapsed and died during an arrest Michael Hawcroft Sgt 31 West Yorkshire Police 12 March 1981 Stabbed Christopher Head DS 30 Metropolitan Police Service 12 August 1966 Shot Arthur John Wilkins Healey PC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 13 September 1902 Fell through roof while searching a premises Jonathan Charles Henry PC 36 Bedfordshire Police 11 June 2007 Stabbed Thomas Hibbs DC 23 London & North Western Railway Police 10 August 1901 Bludgeoned and drowned attempting to arrest thieves Conal Daood Hills PC 36 West Yorkshire Police 19 November 2006 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Kenneth Robert Howorth CEO 49 Metropolitan Police Service 26 October 1981 Killed defusing an IRA bomb Alfred Haddon Hudson PC 28 Leeds City Police 4 January 1910 Assaulted attending a disturbance Nicola Hughes PC 23 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot Frank Edwin Hulme PC 31 Hertfordshire Constabulary 12 December 1958 Collapsed and died during an arrest William Ross Hunt DS 56 Strathclyde Police 5 June 1983 Stabbed Frederick George Hutchins, QPM Sgt 48 Metropolitan Police Service 3 June 1961 Shot Thomas Andrew Jackson PC 46 South Yorkshire Police 13 December 2003 Collapsed while dispersing rioters Arthur Gordon Jagger PC 42 West Yorkshire Police 16 July 1951 Shot Andrew James PC 38 South Wales Police 2 August 2003 Accidentally run over while pursuing burglar on foot Robert Johnston Insp 41 City of Glasgow Police 4 May 1921 Shot Stephen John Jones PC 19 Metropolitan Police Service 6 February 1984 Run over Stephen Jones PC 34 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 17 May 1999 Run over Desmond Derrick Kellam PC 31 Wiltshire Constabulary 3 October 1979 Fatally injured during an arrest Kevin Kelliher PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 27 May 1979 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit James Kelly PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 22 February 1920 Shot John William Kew PC 29 West Riding of Yorkshire Constabulary 11 July 1900 Shot Alan Derek King Sgt 41 Metropolitan Police Service 29 November 1991 Stabbed Walter Lacey A/Sgt 42 Lancashire Constabulary 12 September 1978 Collapsed and died during an arrest Clifford Lancaster PC 46 Metropolitan Police Service 22 October 1975 Collapsed and died while searching for suspects Noel Joseph Lane Sgt 28 Metropolitan Police Service 17 December 1983 Killed in the Harrods bombing Arthur Lawes PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 16 August 1930 Run over Deborah Leat WPC 20 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 27 November 1986 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Andrew Stephen Le Comte PC 21 West Midlands Police 4 February 1984 Fell from roof while searching for suspects Ronald Ian Leeuw PC 53 Metropolitan Police Service 11 April 1984 Collapsed while struggling with a violent prisoner David Lewis Sgt 41 Denbighshire Constabulary 5 October 1916 Died from injuries sustained in earlier arrest Robert Russell Lumsden PC 53 Lothian and Borders Police 8 August 1986 Collapsed and died during violent arrest Christopher John MacDonald PC 19 Nottinghamshire Police 17 May 1978 Beaten and drowned by burglar Stewart Cameron MacDonald PC 21 City of Glasgow Police 22 November 1948 Struck by a train while pursuing suspects James Frederick Macey PC 24 Metropolitan Police Service 13 December 1904 Collapsed and died after an arrest Nina Alexandra MacKay WPC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 24 October 1997 Stabbed Angus MacLeod MacKenzie, QPM A/DC 31 City of Glasgow Police 30 December 1969 Shot Samuel MacLean Sgt 45 Dumbartonshire Constabulary 27 August 1926 Killed in a traffic collision while searching for a suspect John Macleod PC 31 City of Glasgow Police 4 September 1952 Shot Keith Maddison PC 46 Durham Constabulary 21 May 1997 Collapsed and died while pursuing suspects from a stolen vehicle John Lewis Marsh PC 40 Wiltshire Constabulary 5 June 1989 Collapsed after a violent arrest Francis John Mason, QGM PC 27 Hertfordshire Constabulary 14 April 1988 Shot Adam Mather PC 50 St. Helens Borough Police 19 June 1915 Collapsed and died during an arrest James Daniel McClafferty Chief Insp 57 British Transport Commission Police 1 October 1954 Collapsed and died pursuing suspected thief Robert Craig Orr McLaren PC 42 Norfolk Constabulary 31 August 1981 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Ronan Konrad McCloskey PC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 9 May 1987 Run over William George McKelvie PC 34 Hawick Burgh Police 20 July 1906 Assaulted during an arrest Walter Marshall McMillan PC 30 British Transport Commission Police 25 January 1960 Fatally injured in fall off a wall while pursuing suspect William Thomas Mellen SPC 45 Herefordshire Constabulary 20 October 1940 Assaulted by disorderly suspect Robert Benjamin Mercer PC 20 Metropolitan Police Service 26 May 1982 Vehicle crashed during pursuit Sidney George Miles, KPM PC 42 Metropolitan Police Service 2 November 1952 Shot Bryan Reginald Moore PC 39 Leicestershire Constabulary 15 August 2002 Rammed by vehicle being pursued Hugh John Moore, QPM Cmdr 64 City of London Police 4 December 1993 Collapsed and died during an arrest James Morrison, QGM DC 26 Metropolitan Police Service 13 December 1991 Stabbed Brian Moss DC 26 Buckinghamshire Constabulary 25 March 1953 Fell through roof while searching for intruders Andrew Carl Munn PC 37 Leicestershire Constabulary 15 August 2002 Rammed by vehicle being pursued Peter Munro PC 21 Lanarkshire Constabulary 7 August 1921 Fatally injured during an arrest George Bertram Mussell, KPM PC 40 Northumberland County Constabulary 15 April 1913 Shot Robert Nathans PC 49 Greater Manchester Police 27 February 1999 Collapsed and died after pursuing suspect on foot Stephen Robin Oake, QGM DC 40 Greater Manchester Police 14 January 2003 Stabbed Jonathan Bruce Odell PC 30 Kent County Constabulary 19 December 2000 Run over Philip Michael Olds, QGM PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 1 October 1986 Shot James O'Donnell, QPM DI 47 Lancashire Constabulary 13 December 1958 Shot Francis Joseph O'Neill, QGM PC 31 Metropolitan Police Service 25 October 1980 Stabbed Philip Pawsey, QPM Insp 40 Metropolitan Police Service 3 June 1961 Shot William John Payne PC 37 Berkshire Constabulary 7 July 1949 Collapsed and died after pursuing burglar Thomas William Perry Sgt 46 Metropolitan Police Service 20 May 1905 Collapsed and died after an arrest Joseph Pickering WRC 54 Liverpool City Police 31 January 1942 Assaulted during violent arrest Hosea Pope PC 33 Monmouthshire Constabulary 14 July 1911 Assaulted during violent arrest James Brian Porter DC 31 Durham Constabulary 4 March 1982 Shot John Tremlett Potter PC 46 Devon and Cornwall Constabulary 2 February 1938 Bludgeoned during an arrest William Ezra Price PC 35 Staffordshire Constabulary 26 January 1903 Bludgeoned during an arrest Robert Pritchard PC 49 Anglesey Constabulary 22 November 1924 Shot Raymond William Purdy DS 43 Metropolitan Police Service 13 July 1959 Shot by Guenther Podola (last man in Britain executed for murdering a police officer) Mandy Dawn Rayner WPC 18 Hertfordshire Constabulary 13 October 1982 Vehicle struck during police pursuit Gerry Irving Richardson, GC Supt 38 Lancashire Constabulary 23 August 1971 Shot Brian Arthur Rippingale PC 27 Essex Constabulary 2 September 1968 Run over accidentally while pursuing a suspect on foot Christopher Roberts PC 47 Metropolitan Police Service 26 December 2007 Collapsed and died after a violent arrest Derek John Carnie Robertson Sgt 39 Metropolitan Police Service 9 February 1994 Stabbed Raymond George Robinson Sgt 55 British Transport Police 29 August 1975 Collapsed while struggling with a violent prisoner Thomas Eldred B. Rowland PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 25 December 1919 Assaulted during an arrest George William Russell, QPM PC 36 Cumberland, Westmorland & Carlisle Constabulary 10 February 1965 Shot Leonard Russell PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 13 November 1904 Collapsed and died during an arrest Paul Salmon PC 28 Hampshire Constabulary 17 September 1982 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit John Sandford DC 45 Greater Manchester Police 2 May 1982 Attacked by youths suspected of indecent assault Barry Saunders PC 31 South Yorkshire Police 24 November 1989 Fell through roof while searching burgled premises Henry William Sawyer A/Sgt 36 Metropolitan Police Service 16 February 1918 Fatally injured during an arrest John Schofield PC 27 Surrey Constabulary 6 July 1974 Shot William Ralph Shiell PC 28 Durham County Constabulary 1 March 1940 Shot Walter Shillum PC 37 Glamorgan Constabulary 4 May 1910 Stabbed George Thomas Shepherd PC 39 Metropolitan Police Service 9 November 1938 Dragged by stolen vehicle while attempting an arrest Charles William Sheppard PC 31 Birmingham City Police 23 May 1928 Beaten while attending a disturbance Kulwant Singh Sidhu PC 24 Metropolitan Police Service 25 October 1999 Fell through roof while pursuing suspects Anthony Richard Silcock PC 25 Hertfordshire Constabulary 7 April 1960 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Charles John Skevington PC 41 West Riding of Yorkshire Constabulary 19 July 1955 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Adam Smith PC 25 Perth City Police 23 April 1909 Collapsed and died pursuing nuisance youths Albert Smith PC 35 Bradford City Police 25 January 1907 Assaulted during an arrest Dennis Arthur Smith, QPM PC 44 Devon and Cornwall Constabulary 21 December 1973 Shot Samuel Smith PC 36 Stockport Borough Police 18 October 1963 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Ernest Southern PC 35 Lancashire Constabulary 27 January 1962 Collapsed attending a violent street affray Henry G. A. Speake PC 21 Shrewsbury Borough Police 3 August 1937 Drowned after pursuing suspect into a river John Richard Speed Sgt 39 West Yorkshire Police 31 October 1984 Shot James Stanford QGM DS 40 Wolverhampton Borough Police 20 August 1965 Stabbed Jonathan Michael Stapley PC 27 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 29 December 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Matthew Walls Straughan PC 36 Durham County Constabulary 28 June 1927 Shot Raymond Henry Summers PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 14 December 1958 Stabbed Grant Clifford Sunnucks PC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 26 July 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Michael Swindells, QGM DC 44 West Midlands Police 21 May 2004 Stabbed Barry John Taylor Insp 30 West Yorkshire Police 15 February 1970 Shot Frank Taylor PC 34 Hull City Police 28 May 1948 Assaulted during violent arrest George William Chree Taylor PC 27 Strathclyde Police 30 November 1976 Attacked and fatally injured by escaped prisoners John David Taylor PC 26 Staffordshire Police 23 November 1986 Pushed out of building by suspect Ernest Thompson PC 32 Metropolitan Police Service 1 December 1900 Stabbed Robert C. Thomson, MBE ACC 38 Edinburgh City Police 18 July 1940 Shot Stephen Andrew Tibble, QPM PC 21 Metropolitan Police Service 26 February 1975 Shot Gary Toms PC 26 Metropolitan Police Service 11 April 2009 Run over Jeffrey Barry James Tooley PC 26 Sussex Police 25 April 1999 Run over John Towers WRC 39 Blackburn Borough Police 27 December 1943 Assaulted Charles Tucker Sgt 46 City of London Police 16 December 1910 Shot Isaac Taylor PC 30 Lancashire Constabulary 24 May 1956 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit William Frederick Tyler PC 31 Metropolitan Police Service 29 January 1909 Shot Sydney Arthur Tysoe PC 38 Lancashire Constabulary 29 November 1949 Assaulted William Balfour Urquhart PC 49 Aberdeen City Police 22 March 1904 Collapsed and died attempting an arrest Gerald Walker PC 42 Nottinghamshire Police 9 January 2003 Run over Malcolm Edward Walker PC 46 West Midlands Police 4 October 2001 Vehicle struck during a pursuit Arthur Walls Insp 44 Eastbourne Borough Police 9 October 1912 Shot Stephen Paul Walker PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 30 April 1983 Accidentally run over while pursuing suspects Phillip John Walters PC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 18 April 1995 Shot George William Wheatley PC 31 South Shields Borough Police 26 December 1957 Fell through roof while searching for a suspect Michael Anthony Whiting, QPM PC 21 Metropolitan Police Service 5 May 1973 Dragged by a vehicle while attempting to arrest the driver Kevin Mood Williams PC 31 South Wales Constabulary 23 October 1986 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Francis James Willis DS 35 Cambridge Borough Police 4 June 1930 Shot Albert Willits PC 24 Wolverhampton Borough Police 18 January 1925 Shot David Thomas Winter Sgt 31 North Yorkshire Police 28 June 1982 Shot William Adiel Wilkinson PC 32 Leicestershire Constabulary 25 May 1903 Shot Christopher Francis Wilson PC 28 Devon and Cornwall Constabulary 20 August 1977 Contracted fatal illness when spat on during football disturbance David Wombwell DC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 12 August 1966 Shot Ian Weir Woodward PC 33 Lancashire Constabulary 25 February 1987 Shot William Reynolds Woolley PC 37 Lincolnshire Constabulary 26 August 1906 Collapsed and died during an arrest Garry Wozencroft PC 35 South Wales Police 30 June 2000 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit Stewart Mungo Whillis PC 37 Lancashire Constabulary 15 May 1907 Assaulted James Wright PC 38 Manchester City Police 20 June 1934 Run over Peter James Wringe PC 23 Essex Police 4 July 1982 Fell through roof while searching a premises Alfred Young, KPM DC 36 Metropolitan Police Service 14 July 1915 Shot | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Why is this being discussed on here this is a swinging site somewhere to leave the real world behind and have fun and naughties!! "Yeah let's just talk sex all the time and have continual suck, fuck, avoid threads. .. As swingers do you think we are that one dimensional? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Remember that guy that was shot in hackney...the one that ended up having a chair leg in a bag... Remember any of these? On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad. On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey. In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol. On 22 September 1999 Harry Steller, a painter and decorator, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a Sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind. On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a re_iew of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting. In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate). A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing. On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. In leaks from official sources at the time to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer would be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot". Seems they were correct. Seems the police can kill with impunity... Guess they are now the law, not servants of the law. Very interesting material. Perhaps we can publish the thousands of incidents during those years that armed police have attended to and peacefully resolved in order to keep this balanced and not sensationalist? The point, if you go back and read all the above is that they all happen at close range and are all suspiciously similar, as are the excuses and platitudes that get rolled out after each one. I also note with interest that when there is real danger to police they seem to be a lot less cavalier and a lot more cautious. I wonder if this is because they are busy keeping their heads down when up against real weapons but up for a bit of gun play if they see an opportunity to claim "fear of imminent danger". Yep spot on, they all ran away at the gruesome Lee Rigby murder, and never attend anything where they may get hurt.
List of British police officers killed in the line of duty
This article lists British police officers killed in the line of duty since 1900.
Thousands of police officers in Britain are believed to have died during the course of their duties, but this article includes only those who were killed as a direct result of a crime or while attempting to prevent, stop or solve a specific criminal act. The list omits those who died in more common or regular circumstances, such as in road traffic accidents or air raids during the Second World War.
The list also omits the more than 300 officers of the former Royal Ulster Constabulary[2] and current Police Service of Northern Ireland who were killed during the Troubles in Northern Ireland.
Desmond Morgan Acreman PC 33 Metropolitan Police Service 12 February 1967 Accidentally run over while pursuing suspects
Kenneth Adams PC 38 Hampshire Constabulary 17 September 1982 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Ronald Alan Addison PC 24 Metropolitan Police Service 24 January 1960 Collapsed and died while pursuing suspects
Raja Bashrat Ahmed PC 35 Greater Manchester Police 31 August 1999 Motorcycle rammed into oncoming traffic by suspect
Charles William Alger PC 37 Great Yarmouth Borough Police 18 August 1909 Shot
Edgar Gerald Allen PC 41 Metropolitan Police Service 29 March 1958 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
George William Allen PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 28 November 1931 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Jane Philippa Arbuthnot WPC 22 Metropolitan Police Service 17 December 1983 Killed in the Harrods bombing
Alison Armitage PC 29 Greater Manchester Police 5 March 2001 Run over by suspect
Brian Armstrong PC 31 Gateshead Borough Police 12 September 1966 Stabbed
Jack William Avery WRC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 6 July 1940 Stabbed
William James Avis, DCM Sgt 47 West Sussex Constabulary 26 February 1942 Shot
Robert Bain PC 46 Salford Borough Police 11 July 1906 Assaulted resulting in leg amputation and death
William Balkwill Supt 43 Somserset Constabulary 27 July 1900 Fatally injured while restraining violent prisoner
Samuel Ballance PC 23 Liverpool City Police 3 September 1911 Died during operation to treat injuries sustained during earlier riot
Edward Alexander Barnett, QPM PC 24 City of Glasgow Police 30 December 1969 Shot
Andrew Barton Sgt 40 Northumbria Police 15 April 1913 Shot
Alan Baxter PC 39 Metropolitan Police Service 20 August 1977 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Allan George Baxter PC 33 Kent County Constabulary 5 June 1951 Shot
Allan Beattie PC 26 Cardiff City Police 13 April 1952 Accidentally run over during an arrest
Douglas Frederick Beckerson PC 22 Metropolitan Police Service 10 April 1971 Fell through a roof while pursuing suspect
Martin Bickersteth Bell PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 3 July 1986 Run over during police pursuit
Robert Bentley Sgt 36 City of London Police 17 December 1910 Shot
Herbert Berry PC 46 Metropolitan Police Service 3 June 1918 Fatally injured during an arrest
Sharon Beshenivsky PC 38 West Yorkshire Police 18 November 2005 Shot
Brian John Bishop A/Sgt 37 Essex Police 27 August 1984 Shot
Keith Henry Blakelock, QGM PC 40 Metropolitan Police Service 6 October 1985 Stabbed
Fiona Bone PC 32 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot
Brinley James Booth PC 31 Staffordshire Police 6 June 1946 Bludgeoned during an arrest
Lewis Booth PC 50 Lancashire Constabulary 6 January 1905 Collapsed and died during an arrest
James Roy Bradley Insp 41 Oxfordshire Constabulary 1 January 1967 Run over
Roger Brereton PC 41 Thames Valley Police 19 August 1987 Shot
Ian Nigel Broadhurst PC 34 West Yorkshire Police 26 December 2003 Shot
Laurence Peter Brown PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 28 August 1990 Shot
Ronald Brown PC 20 Liverpool City Police 19 February 1962 Fell through roof while searching for burglar
Daniel Buckley PC 32 Northumbria Police 14 February 1982 Fell through a roof while pursuing burglar
Bernard Leslie Bull PC 35 Northumbria Police 31 January 1991 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Arthur William Burch PC 38 Hertfordshire Constabulary 7 April 1960 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Peter Burnett PC 42 Lancashire Constabulary 7 October 1990 Collapsed while dispersing rioters
John Burney Insp 45 Middlesbrough County Borough Police 25 December 1920 Assaulted during violent arrest
James Campbell PC 39 City of Glasgow Police 20 January 1919 Shot
Gavin Richard Carlton PC 29 West Midlands Police 19 December 1988 Shot
Joseph Geoffrey Carroll PC 46 Northumbria Police 13 April 2006 Road traffic accident while transporting a prisoner
Adele Yvette Cashman DC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 5 November 2012 Collapsed while pursuing two robbery suspects and later died
Harry Cautherley PC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 28 November 1931 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Walter Charles Choat PC 34 City of London Police 17 December 1910 Shot
Alfred Clarke PC 43 Worcestershire Constabulary 21 December 1900 Fatally injured in fall while searching for suspect
Duncan Clift PC 22 Kent County Constabulary 22 March 1991 Run over
Joanne Mary Cochran WPC 20 Thames Valley Police 30 March 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Raymond Anthony Codling Insp 49 Greater Manchester Police 14 September 1989 Shot
Glenn Russel Corder PC 18 Durham Constabulary 6 February 1980 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Ian Coward, QPM DC 28 Thames Valley Police 23 July 1971 Shot
Sydney Hussey Craik PC 31 Lanarkshire Constabulary 12 September 1932 Accidentally run over while pursuing suspect
Thomas Cringles Chief Insp 51 Strathclyde Police 26 August 1976 Collapsed and died dealing with a disturbance
William Percy Croft PC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 9 September 1905 Fatally injured in a fall while pursuing burglars
Robert George Cross PC 33 Surrey Constabulary 14 July 1977 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Ernest Crowston Sgt 40 Nottingham City Police 7 March 1921 Fatally injured attempting to stop a speeding vehicle
William Frank Crouch Sgt 33 Wiltshire Constabulary 31 March 1913 Shot
Raymond Davenport PC 35 Merseyside Police 4 July 1981 Run over
Evan Thomas Davies PC 31 Cardiff City Police 11 December 1941 Shot
William Davies PC 43 Montgomeryshire Constabulary 16 November 1903 Died of heart failure after a violent arrest
Brian Dawson Sgt 42 Leicestershire Constabulary 1 September 1975 Shot
Peter Leonard Deans PC 25 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 29 December 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Alfred Edward Deeks Insp 44 Metropolitan Police Service 5 May 1912 Collapsed and died while dispersing a nuisance crowd
Ian Dibell PC 41 Essex Police 9 July 2012 Shot
Stephen John Dodd Insp 34 Metropolitan Police Service 24 December 1983 Killed in the Harrods bombing
Edward Roy Dorney PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 1 January 1960 Struck by a train while pursuing suspects
Joseph Stewart Drake PC 36 Stirling and Clackmannan Constabulary 11 August 1967 Run over
Benjamin Drinkwater PC 26 Bootle Borough Police 1 August 1935 Fell through roof while searching for suspects
Andrew Duncan PC 47 Metropolitan Police Service 22 September 2013 Struck by a vehicle in suspected hit-and-run
Patrick Dunne PC 44 Metropolitan Police Service 20 October 1993 Shot
Francis John East Insp 42 Berkshire Constabulary 4 October 1944 Fatally injured when thrown off a vehicle during an arrest
Nathanael Edgar PC 33 Metropolitan Police Service 13 February 1948 Shot
Sandra Jane Edwards WPC 28 South Yorkshire Police 10 May 1995 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
John Egerton PC 20 Greater Manchester Police 11 March 1982 Stabbed
Yvonne Joyce Fletcher WPC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 17 April 1984 Shot
David Fleming Ford PC 22 Metropolitan Police Service 14 March 1929 Fell through a roof while pursuing burglars
John William Fordham DC 45 Metropolitan Police Service 26 January 1985 Stabbed
William Forth Sgt 34 Northumbria Police 21 March 1993 Stabbed
Geoffrey Fox PC 41 Metropolitan Police Service 12 August 1966 Shot
Duncan Alexander Fraser PC 46 West Yorkshire Police 15 July 1951 Shot
Raymond Free PC 25 Nottinghamshire County Constabulary 1 June 1950 Collapsed after attending a domestic disturbance
Edmund Sleigh Frost Sgt 41 Essex Police 8 April 1948 Contracted fatal disease following injury sustained on duty
Lewis George Fulton PC 28 Strathclyde Police 17 June 1994 Stabbed
Norman Garnham A/DC 25 North Yorkshire Police 2 March 1977 Stabbed
George Hillier Garrott PC 27 Strathclyde Police 5 March 1980 Electrocuted while investigating reports of vandalism on a railway
Glenn Thomas Goodman SPC 37 North Yorkshire Police 7 June 1992 Shot
William Gibson Sgt 44 Dumfries and Galloway Constabulary 22 May 1951 Shot
David George Gisborne Insp 36 Metropolitan Police Service 5 August 1974 Collapsed and died after being assaulted in a riot
Robert Chenery Gladwell PC 37 Metropolitan Police Service 6 January 1991 Assaulted during an arrest
Roger Philip Goad, GC CEO 40 Metropolitan Police Service 25 August 1975 Killed defusing an IRA bomb
Alan Ewen Gordon Sgt 38 Grampian Police 10 August 1977 Run over during police pursuit
Reginald Charles Grady DC 46 Bristol Constabulary 14 August 1945 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Richard Gray PC 43 West Mercia Constabulary 6 May 2007 Shot
David Christopher Green PC 20 West Midlands Police 17 July 1975 Stabbed
Thomas Green Stn Sgt 51 Metropolitan Police Service 18 June 1919 Bludgeoned during a mob attack on a police station
Thomas Ashcroft Grundy PC 30 St. Helens Borough Police 31 January 1914 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Charles Phillip Gunter PC 24 Birmingham City Police 26 October 1901 Fatally injured by a thrown brick while attempting to disperse a gang
Peter Charles Guthrie, QPM PC 21 Warwickshire & Coventry Constabulary 22 July 1972 Shot
George William Gutteridge PC 38 Essex County Constabulary 27 September 1927 Shot
David Ian Haigh PC 25 North Yorkshire Police 17 June 1982 Shot
Colin John Hall PC 40 West Midlands Police 29 November 1987 Collapsed attending a disturbance
George Pickburn Hammond PC 58 Metropolitan Police Service 13 December 1995 Stabbed
James Harte PC 38 Leith Burgh Police 4 April 1900 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Michael Hawcroft Sgt 31 West Yorkshire Police 12 March 1981 Stabbed
Christopher Head DS 30 Metropolitan Police Service 12 August 1966 Shot
Arthur John Wilkins Healey PC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 13 September 1902 Fell through roof while searching a premises
Jonathan Charles Henry PC 36 Bedfordshire Police 11 June 2007 Stabbed
Thomas Hibbs DC 23 London & North Western Railway Police 10 August 1901 Bludgeoned and drowned attempting to arrest thieves
Conal Daood Hills PC 36 West Yorkshire Police 19 November 2006 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Kenneth Robert Howorth CEO 49 Metropolitan Police Service 26 October 1981 Killed defusing an IRA bomb
Alfred Haddon Hudson PC 28 Leeds City Police 4 January 1910 Assaulted attending a disturbance
Nicola Hughes PC 23 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot
Frank Edwin Hulme PC 31 Hertfordshire Constabulary 12 December 1958 Collapsed and died during an arrest
William Ross Hunt DS 56 Strathclyde Police 5 June 1983 Stabbed
Frederick George Hutchins, QPM Sgt 48 Metropolitan Police Service 3 June 1961 Shot
Thomas Andrew Jackson PC 46 South Yorkshire Police 13 December 2003 Collapsed while dispersing rioters
Arthur Gordon Jagger PC 42 West Yorkshire Police 16 July 1951 Shot
Andrew James PC 38 South Wales Police 2 August 2003 Accidentally run over while pursuing burglar on foot
Robert Johnston Insp 41 City of Glasgow Police 4 May 1921 Shot
Stephen John Jones PC 19 Metropolitan Police Service 6 February 1984 Run over
Stephen Jones PC 34 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 17 May 1999 Run over
Desmond Derrick Kellam PC 31 Wiltshire Constabulary 3 October 1979 Fatally injured during an arrest
Kevin Kelliher PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 27 May 1979 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
James Kelly PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 22 February 1920 Shot
John William Kew PC 29 West Riding of Yorkshire Constabulary 11 July 1900 Shot
Alan Derek King Sgt 41 Metropolitan Police Service 29 November 1991 Stabbed
Walter Lacey A/Sgt 42 Lancashire Constabulary 12 September 1978 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Clifford Lancaster PC 46 Metropolitan Police Service 22 October 1975 Collapsed and died while searching for suspects
Noel Joseph Lane Sgt 28 Metropolitan Police Service 17 December 1983 Killed in the Harrods bombing
Arthur Lawes PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 16 August 1930 Run over
Deborah Leat WPC 20 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 27 November 1986 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Andrew Stephen Le Comte PC 21 West Midlands Police 4 February 1984 Fell from roof while searching for suspects
Ronald Ian Leeuw PC 53 Metropolitan Police Service 11 April 1984 Collapsed while struggling with a violent prisoner
David Lewis Sgt 41 Denbighshire Constabulary 5 October 1916 Died from injuries sustained in earlier arrest
Robert Russell Lumsden PC 53 Lothian and Borders Police 8 August 1986 Collapsed and died during violent arrest
Christopher John MacDonald PC 19 Nottinghamshire Police 17 May 1978 Beaten and drowned by burglar
Stewart Cameron MacDonald PC 21 City of Glasgow Police 22 November 1948 Struck by a train while pursuing suspects
James Frederick Macey PC 24 Metropolitan Police Service 13 December 1904 Collapsed and died after an arrest
Nina Alexandra MacKay WPC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 24 October 1997 Stabbed
Angus MacLeod MacKenzie, QPM A/DC 31 City of Glasgow Police 30 December 1969 Shot
Samuel MacLean Sgt 45 Dumbartonshire Constabulary 27 August 1926 Killed in a traffic collision while searching for a suspect
John Macleod PC 31 City of Glasgow Police 4 September 1952 Shot
Keith Maddison PC 46 Durham Constabulary 21 May 1997 Collapsed and died while pursuing suspects from a stolen vehicle
John Lewis Marsh PC 40 Wiltshire Constabulary 5 June 1989 Collapsed after a violent arrest
Francis John Mason, QGM PC 27 Hertfordshire Constabulary 14 April 1988 Shot
Adam Mather PC 50 St. Helens Borough Police 19 June 1915 Collapsed and died during an arrest
James Daniel McClafferty Chief Insp 57 British Transport Commission Police 1 October 1954 Collapsed and died pursuing suspected thief
Robert Craig Orr McLaren PC 42 Norfolk Constabulary 31 August 1981 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Ronan Konrad McCloskey PC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 9 May 1987 Run over
William George McKelvie PC 34 Hawick Burgh Police 20 July 1906 Assaulted during an arrest
Walter Marshall McMillan PC 30 British Transport Commission Police 25 January 1960 Fatally injured in fall off a wall while pursuing suspect
William Thomas Mellen SPC 45 Herefordshire Constabulary 20 October 1940 Assaulted by disorderly suspect
Robert Benjamin Mercer PC 20 Metropolitan Police Service 26 May 1982 Vehicle crashed during pursuit
Sidney George Miles, KPM PC 42 Metropolitan Police Service 2 November 1952 Shot
Bryan Reginald Moore PC 39 Leicestershire Constabulary 15 August 2002 Rammed by vehicle being pursued
Hugh John Moore, QPM Cmdr 64 City of London Police 4 December 1993 Collapsed and died during an arrest
James Morrison, QGM DC 26 Metropolitan Police Service 13 December 1991 Stabbed
Brian Moss DC 26 Buckinghamshire Constabulary 25 March 1953 Fell through roof while searching for intruders
Andrew Carl Munn PC 37 Leicestershire Constabulary 15 August 2002 Rammed by vehicle being pursued
Peter Munro PC 21 Lanarkshire Constabulary 7 August 1921 Fatally injured during an arrest
George Bertram Mussell, KPM PC 40 Northumberland County Constabulary 15 April 1913 Shot
Robert Nathans PC 49 Greater Manchester Police 27 February 1999 Collapsed and died after pursuing suspect on foot
Stephen Robin Oake, QGM DC 40 Greater Manchester Police 14 January 2003 Stabbed
Jonathan Bruce Odell PC 30 Kent County Constabulary 19 December 2000 Run over
Philip Michael Olds, QGM PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 1 October 1986 Shot
James O'Donnell, QPM DI 47 Lancashire Constabulary 13 December 1958 Shot
Francis Joseph O'Neill, QGM PC 31 Metropolitan Police Service 25 October 1980 Stabbed
Philip Pawsey, QPM Insp 40 Metropolitan Police Service 3 June 1961 Shot
William John Payne PC 37 Berkshire Constabulary 7 July 1949 Collapsed and died after pursuing burglar
Thomas William Perry Sgt 46 Metropolitan Police Service 20 May 1905 Collapsed and died after an arrest
Joseph Pickering WRC 54 Liverpool City Police 31 January 1942 Assaulted during violent arrest
Hosea Pope PC 33 Monmouthshire Constabulary 14 July 1911 Assaulted during violent arrest
James Brian Porter DC 31 Durham Constabulary 4 March 1982 Shot
John Tremlett Potter PC 46 Devon and Cornwall Constabulary 2 February 1938 Bludgeoned during an arrest
William Ezra Price PC 35 Staffordshire Constabulary 26 January 1903 Bludgeoned during an arrest
Robert Pritchard PC 49 Anglesey Constabulary 22 November 1924 Shot
Raymond William Purdy DS 43 Metropolitan Police Service 13 July 1959 Shot by Guenther Podola (last man in Britain executed for murdering a police officer)
Mandy Dawn Rayner WPC 18 Hertfordshire Constabulary 13 October 1982 Vehicle struck during police pursuit
Gerry Irving Richardson, GC Supt 38 Lancashire Constabulary 23 August 1971 Shot
Brian Arthur Rippingale PC 27 Essex Constabulary 2 September 1968 Run over accidentally while pursuing a suspect on foot
Christopher Roberts PC 47 Metropolitan Police Service 26 December 2007 Collapsed and died after a violent arrest
Derek John Carnie Robertson Sgt 39 Metropolitan Police Service 9 February 1994 Stabbed
Raymond George Robinson Sgt 55 British Transport Police 29 August 1975 Collapsed while struggling with a violent prisoner
Thomas Eldred B. Rowland PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 25 December 1919 Assaulted during an arrest
George William Russell, QPM PC 36 Cumberland, Westmorland & Carlisle Constabulary 10 February 1965 Shot
Leonard Russell PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 13 November 1904 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Paul Salmon PC 28 Hampshire Constabulary 17 September 1982 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
John Sandford DC 45 Greater Manchester Police 2 May 1982 Attacked by youths suspected of indecent assault
Barry Saunders PC 31 South Yorkshire Police 24 November 1989 Fell through roof while searching burgled premises
Henry William Sawyer A/Sgt 36 Metropolitan Police Service 16 February 1918 Fatally injured during an arrest
John Schofield PC 27 Surrey Constabulary 6 July 1974 Shot
William Ralph Shiell PC 28 Durham County Constabulary 1 March 1940 Shot
Walter Shillum PC 37 Glamorgan Constabulary 4 May 1910 Stabbed
George Thomas Shepherd PC 39 Metropolitan Police Service 9 November 1938 Dragged by stolen vehicle while attempting an arrest
Charles William Sheppard PC 31 Birmingham City Police 23 May 1928 Beaten while attending a disturbance
Kulwant Singh Sidhu PC 24 Metropolitan Police Service 25 October 1999 Fell through roof while pursuing suspects
Anthony Richard Silcock PC 25 Hertfordshire Constabulary 7 April 1960 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Charles John Skevington PC 41 West Riding of Yorkshire Constabulary 19 July 1955 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Adam Smith PC 25 Perth City Police 23 April 1909 Collapsed and died pursuing nuisance youths
Albert Smith PC 35 Bradford City Police 25 January 1907 Assaulted during an arrest
Dennis Arthur Smith, QPM PC 44 Devon and Cornwall Constabulary 21 December 1973 Shot
Samuel Smith PC 36 Stockport Borough Police 18 October 1963 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Ernest Southern PC 35 Lancashire Constabulary 27 January 1962 Collapsed attending a violent street affray
Henry G. A. Speake PC 21 Shrewsbury Borough Police 3 August 1937 Drowned after pursuing suspect into a river
John Richard Speed Sgt 39 West Yorkshire Police 31 October 1984 Shot
James Stanford QGM DS 40 Wolverhampton Borough Police 20 August 1965 Stabbed
Jonathan Michael Stapley PC 27 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 29 December 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Matthew Walls Straughan PC 36 Durham County Constabulary 28 June 1927 Shot
Raymond Henry Summers PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 14 December 1958 Stabbed
Grant Clifford Sunnucks PC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 26 July 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Michael Swindells, QGM DC 44 West Midlands Police 21 May 2004 Stabbed
Barry John Taylor Insp 30 West Yorkshire Police 15 February 1970 Shot
Frank Taylor PC 34 Hull City Police 28 May 1948 Assaulted during violent arrest
George William Chree Taylor PC 27 Strathclyde Police 30 November 1976 Attacked and fatally injured by escaped prisoners
John David Taylor PC 26 Staffordshire Police 23 November 1986 Pushed out of building by suspect
Ernest Thompson PC 32 Metropolitan Police Service 1 December 1900 Stabbed
Robert C. Thomson, MBE ACC 38 Edinburgh City Police 18 July 1940 Shot
Stephen Andrew Tibble, QPM PC 21 Metropolitan Police Service 26 February 1975 Shot
Gary Toms PC 26 Metropolitan Police Service 11 April 2009 Run over
Jeffrey Barry James Tooley PC 26 Sussex Police 25 April 1999 Run over
John Towers WRC 39 Blackburn Borough Police 27 December 1943 Assaulted
Charles Tucker Sgt 46 City of London Police 16 December 1910 Shot
Isaac Taylor PC 30 Lancashire Constabulary 24 May 1956 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
William Frederick Tyler PC 31 Metropolitan Police Service 29 January 1909 Shot
Sydney Arthur Tysoe PC 38 Lancashire Constabulary 29 November 1949 Assaulted
William Balfour Urquhart PC 49 Aberdeen City Police 22 March 1904 Collapsed and died attempting an arrest
Gerald Walker PC 42 Nottinghamshire Police 9 January 2003 Run over
Malcolm Edward Walker PC 46 West Midlands Police 4 October 2001 Vehicle struck during a pursuit
Arthur Walls Insp 44 Eastbourne Borough Police 9 October 1912 Shot
Stephen Paul Walker PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 30 April 1983 Accidentally run over while pursuing suspects
Phillip John Walters PC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 18 April 1995 Shot
George William Wheatley PC 31 South Shields Borough Police 26 December 1957 Fell through roof while searching for a suspect
Michael Anthony Whiting, QPM PC 21 Metropolitan Police Service 5 May 1973 Dragged by a vehicle while attempting to arrest the driver
Kevin Mood Williams PC 31 South Wales Constabulary 23 October 1986 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Francis James Willis DS 35 Cambridge Borough Police 4 June 1930 Shot
Albert Willits PC 24 Wolverhampton Borough Police 18 January 1925 Shot
David Thomas Winter Sgt 31 North Yorkshire Police 28 June 1982 Shot
William Adiel Wilkinson PC 32 Leicestershire Constabulary 25 May 1903 Shot
Christopher Francis Wilson PC 28 Devon and Cornwall Constabulary 20 August 1977 Contracted fatal illness when spat on during football disturbance
David Wombwell DC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 12 August 1966 Shot
Ian Weir Woodward PC 33 Lancashire Constabulary 25 February 1987 Shot
William Reynolds Woolley PC 37 Lincolnshire Constabulary 26 August 1906 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Garry Wozencroft PC 35 South Wales Police 30 June 2000 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Stewart Mungo Whillis PC 37 Lancashire Constabulary 15 May 1907 Assaulted
James Wright PC 38 Manchester City Police 20 June 1934 Run over
Peter James Wringe PC 23 Essex Police 4 July 1982 Fell through roof while searching a premises
Alfred Young, KPM DC 36 Metropolitan Police Service 14 July 1915 Shot
"thankyou. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Remember that guy that was shot in hackney...the one that ended up having a chair leg in a bag... Remember any of these? On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad. On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey. In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol. On 22 September 1999 Harry Steller, a painter and decorator, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a Sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries. It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind. On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a hand-written letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a re_iew of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented at the time: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer." However, a verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers at the scene. The IPCA Commissioner for the North West, Mike Franklin, stated that “the officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario... Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required or expected of them On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles. Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional—rather than personal—capacity. The family of Jean Charles has called on the government to open a public inquiry into the shooting. In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a BB gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate). A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this, as well as other procedural issues in the investigation, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently" and that an inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing. On August 4, 2011, Mark Duggan was shot dead by the MPS, sparking massive riots across London. In leaks from official sources at the time to The Times newspaper... that the firearms officer would be cleared of any wrongdoing on the basis that he had "an honest-held belief that he was in imminent danger of him or his colleagues being shot". Seems they were correct. Seems the police can kill with impunity... Guess they are now the law, not servants of the law. Very interesting material. Perhaps we can publish the thousands of incidents during those years that armed police have attended to and peacefully resolved in order to keep this balanced and not sensationalist? The point, if you go back and read all the above is that they all happen at close range and are all suspiciously similar, as are the excuses and platitudes that get rolled out after each one. I also note with interest that when there is real danger to police they seem to be a lot less cavalier and a lot more cautious. I wonder if this is because they are busy keeping their heads down when up against real weapons but up for a bit of gun play if they see an opportunity to claim "fear of imminent danger". Yep spot on, they all ran away at the gruesome Lee Rigby murder, and never attend anything where they may get hurt.
List of British police officers killed in the line of duty
This article lists British police officers killed in the line of duty since 1900.
Thousands of police officers in Britain are believed to have died during the course of their duties, but this article includes only those who were killed as a direct result of a crime or while attempting to prevent, stop or solve a specific criminal act. The list omits those who died in more common or regular circumstances, such as in road traffic accidents or air raids during the Second World War.
The list also omits the more than 300 officers of the former Royal Ulster Constabulary[2] and current Police Service of Northern Ireland who were killed during the Troubles in Northern Ireland.
Desmond Morgan Acreman PC 33 Metropolitan Police Service 12 February 1967 Accidentally run over while pursuing suspects
Kenneth Adams PC 38 Hampshire Constabulary 17 September 1982 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Ronald Alan Addison PC 24 Metropolitan Police Service 24 January 1960 Collapsed and died while pursuing suspects
Raja Bashrat Ahmed PC 35 Greater Manchester Police 31 August 1999 Motorcycle rammed into oncoming traffic by suspect
Charles William Alger PC 37 Great Yarmouth Borough Police 18 August 1909 Shot
Edgar Gerald Allen PC 41 Metropolitan Police Service 29 March 1958 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
George William Allen PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 28 November 1931 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Jane Philippa Arbuthnot WPC 22 Metropolitan Police Service 17 December 1983 Killed in the Harrods bombing
Alison Armitage PC 29 Greater Manchester Police 5 March 2001 Run over by suspect
Brian Armstrong PC 31 Gateshead Borough Police 12 September 1966 Stabbed
Jack William Avery WRC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 6 July 1940 Stabbed
William James Avis, DCM Sgt 47 West Sussex Constabulary 26 February 1942 Shot
Robert Bain PC 46 Salford Borough Police 11 July 1906 Assaulted resulting in leg amputation and death
William Balkwill Supt 43 Somserset Constabulary 27 July 1900 Fatally injured while restraining violent prisoner
Samuel Ballance PC 23 Liverpool City Police 3 September 1911 Died during operation to treat injuries sustained during earlier riot
Edward Alexander Barnett, QPM PC 24 City of Glasgow Police 30 December 1969 Shot
Andrew Barton Sgt 40 Northumbria Police 15 April 1913 Shot
Alan Baxter PC 39 Metropolitan Police Service 20 August 1977 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Allan George Baxter PC 33 Kent County Constabulary 5 June 1951 Shot
Allan Beattie PC 26 Cardiff City Police 13 April 1952 Accidentally run over during an arrest
Douglas Frederick Beckerson PC 22 Metropolitan Police Service 10 April 1971 Fell through a roof while pursuing suspect
Martin Bickersteth Bell PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 3 July 1986 Run over during police pursuit
Robert Bentley Sgt 36 City of London Police 17 December 1910 Shot
Herbert Berry PC 46 Metropolitan Police Service 3 June 1918 Fatally injured during an arrest
Sharon Beshenivsky PC 38 West Yorkshire Police 18 November 2005 Shot
Brian John Bishop A/Sgt 37 Essex Police 27 August 1984 Shot
Keith Henry Blakelock, QGM PC 40 Metropolitan Police Service 6 October 1985 Stabbed
Fiona Bone PC 32 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot
Brinley James Booth PC 31 Staffordshire Police 6 June 1946 Bludgeoned during an arrest
Lewis Booth PC 50 Lancashire Constabulary 6 January 1905 Collapsed and died during an arrest
James Roy Bradley Insp 41 Oxfordshire Constabulary 1 January 1967 Run over
Roger Brereton PC 41 Thames Valley Police 19 August 1987 Shot
Ian Nigel Broadhurst PC 34 West Yorkshire Police 26 December 2003 Shot
Laurence Peter Brown PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 28 August 1990 Shot
Ronald Brown PC 20 Liverpool City Police 19 February 1962 Fell through roof while searching for burglar
Daniel Buckley PC 32 Northumbria Police 14 February 1982 Fell through a roof while pursuing burglar
Bernard Leslie Bull PC 35 Northumbria Police 31 January 1991 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Arthur William Burch PC 38 Hertfordshire Constabulary 7 April 1960 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Peter Burnett PC 42 Lancashire Constabulary 7 October 1990 Collapsed while dispersing rioters
John Burney Insp 45 Middlesbrough County Borough Police 25 December 1920 Assaulted during violent arrest
James Campbell PC 39 City of Glasgow Police 20 January 1919 Shot
Gavin Richard Carlton PC 29 West Midlands Police 19 December 1988 Shot
Joseph Geoffrey Carroll PC 46 Northumbria Police 13 April 2006 Road traffic accident while transporting a prisoner
Adele Yvette Cashman DC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 5 November 2012 Collapsed while pursuing two robbery suspects and later died
Harry Cautherley PC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 28 November 1931 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Walter Charles Choat PC 34 City of London Police 17 December 1910 Shot
Alfred Clarke PC 43 Worcestershire Constabulary 21 December 1900 Fatally injured in fall while searching for suspect
Duncan Clift PC 22 Kent County Constabulary 22 March 1991 Run over
Joanne Mary Cochran WPC 20 Thames Valley Police 30 March 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Raymond Anthony Codling Insp 49 Greater Manchester Police 14 September 1989 Shot
Glenn Russel Corder PC 18 Durham Constabulary 6 February 1980 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Ian Coward, QPM DC 28 Thames Valley Police 23 July 1971 Shot
Sydney Hussey Craik PC 31 Lanarkshire Constabulary 12 September 1932 Accidentally run over while pursuing suspect
Thomas Cringles Chief Insp 51 Strathclyde Police 26 August 1976 Collapsed and died dealing with a disturbance
William Percy Croft PC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 9 September 1905 Fatally injured in a fall while pursuing burglars
Robert George Cross PC 33 Surrey Constabulary 14 July 1977 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Ernest Crowston Sgt 40 Nottingham City Police 7 March 1921 Fatally injured attempting to stop a speeding vehicle
William Frank Crouch Sgt 33 Wiltshire Constabulary 31 March 1913 Shot
Raymond Davenport PC 35 Merseyside Police 4 July 1981 Run over
Evan Thomas Davies PC 31 Cardiff City Police 11 December 1941 Shot
William Davies PC 43 Montgomeryshire Constabulary 16 November 1903 Died of heart failure after a violent arrest
Brian Dawson Sgt 42 Leicestershire Constabulary 1 September 1975 Shot
Peter Leonard Deans PC 25 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 29 December 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Alfred Edward Deeks Insp 44 Metropolitan Police Service 5 May 1912 Collapsed and died while dispersing a nuisance crowd
Ian Dibell PC 41 Essex Police 9 July 2012 Shot
Stephen John Dodd Insp 34 Metropolitan Police Service 24 December 1983 Killed in the Harrods bombing
Edward Roy Dorney PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 1 January 1960 Struck by a train while pursuing suspects
Joseph Stewart Drake PC 36 Stirling and Clackmannan Constabulary 11 August 1967 Run over
Benjamin Drinkwater PC 26 Bootle Borough Police 1 August 1935 Fell through roof while searching for suspects
Andrew Duncan PC 47 Metropolitan Police Service 22 September 2013 Struck by a vehicle in suspected hit-and-run
Patrick Dunne PC 44 Metropolitan Police Service 20 October 1993 Shot
Francis John East Insp 42 Berkshire Constabulary 4 October 1944 Fatally injured when thrown off a vehicle during an arrest
Nathanael Edgar PC 33 Metropolitan Police Service 13 February 1948 Shot
Sandra Jane Edwards WPC 28 South Yorkshire Police 10 May 1995 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
John Egerton PC 20 Greater Manchester Police 11 March 1982 Stabbed
Yvonne Joyce Fletcher WPC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 17 April 1984 Shot
David Fleming Ford PC 22 Metropolitan Police Service 14 March 1929 Fell through a roof while pursuing burglars
John William Fordham DC 45 Metropolitan Police Service 26 January 1985 Stabbed
William Forth Sgt 34 Northumbria Police 21 March 1993 Stabbed
Geoffrey Fox PC 41 Metropolitan Police Service 12 August 1966 Shot
Duncan Alexander Fraser PC 46 West Yorkshire Police 15 July 1951 Shot
Raymond Free PC 25 Nottinghamshire County Constabulary 1 June 1950 Collapsed after attending a domestic disturbance
Edmund Sleigh Frost Sgt 41 Essex Police 8 April 1948 Contracted fatal disease following injury sustained on duty
Lewis George Fulton PC 28 Strathclyde Police 17 June 1994 Stabbed
Norman Garnham A/DC 25 North Yorkshire Police 2 March 1977 Stabbed
George Hillier Garrott PC 27 Strathclyde Police 5 March 1980 Electrocuted while investigating reports of vandalism on a railway
Glenn Thomas Goodman SPC 37 North Yorkshire Police 7 June 1992 Shot
William Gibson Sgt 44 Dumfries and Galloway Constabulary 22 May 1951 Shot
David George Gisborne Insp 36 Metropolitan Police Service 5 August 1974 Collapsed and died after being assaulted in a riot
Robert Chenery Gladwell PC 37 Metropolitan Police Service 6 January 1991 Assaulted during an arrest
Roger Philip Goad, GC CEO 40 Metropolitan Police Service 25 August 1975 Killed defusing an IRA bomb
Alan Ewen Gordon Sgt 38 Grampian Police 10 August 1977 Run over during police pursuit
Reginald Charles Grady DC 46 Bristol Constabulary 14 August 1945 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Richard Gray PC 43 West Mercia Constabulary 6 May 2007 Shot
David Christopher Green PC 20 West Midlands Police 17 July 1975 Stabbed
Thomas Green Stn Sgt 51 Metropolitan Police Service 18 June 1919 Bludgeoned during a mob attack on a police station
Thomas Ashcroft Grundy PC 30 St. Helens Borough Police 31 January 1914 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Charles Phillip Gunter PC 24 Birmingham City Police 26 October 1901 Fatally injured by a thrown brick while attempting to disperse a gang
Peter Charles Guthrie, QPM PC 21 Warwickshire & Coventry Constabulary 22 July 1972 Shot
George William Gutteridge PC 38 Essex County Constabulary 27 September 1927 Shot
David Ian Haigh PC 25 North Yorkshire Police 17 June 1982 Shot
Colin John Hall PC 40 West Midlands Police 29 November 1987 Collapsed attending a disturbance
George Pickburn Hammond PC 58 Metropolitan Police Service 13 December 1995 Stabbed
James Harte PC 38 Leith Burgh Police 4 April 1900 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Michael Hawcroft Sgt 31 West Yorkshire Police 12 March 1981 Stabbed
Christopher Head DS 30 Metropolitan Police Service 12 August 1966 Shot
Arthur John Wilkins Healey PC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 13 September 1902 Fell through roof while searching a premises
Jonathan Charles Henry PC 36 Bedfordshire Police 11 June 2007 Stabbed
Thomas Hibbs DC 23 London & North Western Railway Police 10 August 1901 Bludgeoned and drowned attempting to arrest thieves
Conal Daood Hills PC 36 West Yorkshire Police 19 November 2006 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Kenneth Robert Howorth CEO 49 Metropolitan Police Service 26 October 1981 Killed defusing an IRA bomb
Alfred Haddon Hudson PC 28 Leeds City Police 4 January 1910 Assaulted attending a disturbance
Nicola Hughes PC 23 Greater Manchester Police 18 September 2012 Shot
Frank Edwin Hulme PC 31 Hertfordshire Constabulary 12 December 1958 Collapsed and died during an arrest
William Ross Hunt DS 56 Strathclyde Police 5 June 1983 Stabbed
Frederick George Hutchins, QPM Sgt 48 Metropolitan Police Service 3 June 1961 Shot
Thomas Andrew Jackson PC 46 South Yorkshire Police 13 December 2003 Collapsed while dispersing rioters
Arthur Gordon Jagger PC 42 West Yorkshire Police 16 July 1951 Shot
Andrew James PC 38 South Wales Police 2 August 2003 Accidentally run over while pursuing burglar on foot
Robert Johnston Insp 41 City of Glasgow Police 4 May 1921 Shot
Stephen John Jones PC 19 Metropolitan Police Service 6 February 1984 Run over
Stephen Jones PC 34 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 17 May 1999 Run over
Desmond Derrick Kellam PC 31 Wiltshire Constabulary 3 October 1979 Fatally injured during an arrest
Kevin Kelliher PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 27 May 1979 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
James Kelly PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 22 February 1920 Shot
John William Kew PC 29 West Riding of Yorkshire Constabulary 11 July 1900 Shot
Alan Derek King Sgt 41 Metropolitan Police Service 29 November 1991 Stabbed
Walter Lacey A/Sgt 42 Lancashire Constabulary 12 September 1978 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Clifford Lancaster PC 46 Metropolitan Police Service 22 October 1975 Collapsed and died while searching for suspects
Noel Joseph Lane Sgt 28 Metropolitan Police Service 17 December 1983 Killed in the Harrods bombing
Arthur Lawes PC 27 Metropolitan Police Service 16 August 1930 Run over
Deborah Leat WPC 20 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 27 November 1986 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Andrew Stephen Le Comte PC 21 West Midlands Police 4 February 1984 Fell from roof while searching for suspects
Ronald Ian Leeuw PC 53 Metropolitan Police Service 11 April 1984 Collapsed while struggling with a violent prisoner
David Lewis Sgt 41 Denbighshire Constabulary 5 October 1916 Died from injuries sustained in earlier arrest
Robert Russell Lumsden PC 53 Lothian and Borders Police 8 August 1986 Collapsed and died during violent arrest
Christopher John MacDonald PC 19 Nottinghamshire Police 17 May 1978 Beaten and drowned by burglar
Stewart Cameron MacDonald PC 21 City of Glasgow Police 22 November 1948 Struck by a train while pursuing suspects
James Frederick Macey PC 24 Metropolitan Police Service 13 December 1904 Collapsed and died after an arrest
Nina Alexandra MacKay WPC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 24 October 1997 Stabbed
Angus MacLeod MacKenzie, QPM A/DC 31 City of Glasgow Police 30 December 1969 Shot
Samuel MacLean Sgt 45 Dumbartonshire Constabulary 27 August 1926 Killed in a traffic collision while searching for a suspect
John Macleod PC 31 City of Glasgow Police 4 September 1952 Shot
Keith Maddison PC 46 Durham Constabulary 21 May 1997 Collapsed and died while pursuing suspects from a stolen vehicle
John Lewis Marsh PC 40 Wiltshire Constabulary 5 June 1989 Collapsed after a violent arrest
Francis John Mason, QGM PC 27 Hertfordshire Constabulary 14 April 1988 Shot
Adam Mather PC 50 St. Helens Borough Police 19 June 1915 Collapsed and died during an arrest
James Daniel McClafferty Chief Insp 57 British Transport Commission Police 1 October 1954 Collapsed and died pursuing suspected thief
Robert Craig Orr McLaren PC 42 Norfolk Constabulary 31 August 1981 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Ronan Konrad McCloskey PC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 9 May 1987 Run over
William George McKelvie PC 34 Hawick Burgh Police 20 July 1906 Assaulted during an arrest
Walter Marshall McMillan PC 30 British Transport Commission Police 25 January 1960 Fatally injured in fall off a wall while pursuing suspect
William Thomas Mellen SPC 45 Herefordshire Constabulary 20 October 1940 Assaulted by disorderly suspect
Robert Benjamin Mercer PC 20 Metropolitan Police Service 26 May 1982 Vehicle crashed during pursuit
Sidney George Miles, KPM PC 42 Metropolitan Police Service 2 November 1952 Shot
Bryan Reginald Moore PC 39 Leicestershire Constabulary 15 August 2002 Rammed by vehicle being pursued
Hugh John Moore, QPM Cmdr 64 City of London Police 4 December 1993 Collapsed and died during an arrest
James Morrison, QGM DC 26 Metropolitan Police Service 13 December 1991 Stabbed
Brian Moss DC 26 Buckinghamshire Constabulary 25 March 1953 Fell through roof while searching for intruders
Andrew Carl Munn PC 37 Leicestershire Constabulary 15 August 2002 Rammed by vehicle being pursued
Peter Munro PC 21 Lanarkshire Constabulary 7 August 1921 Fatally injured during an arrest
George Bertram Mussell, KPM PC 40 Northumberland County Constabulary 15 April 1913 Shot
Robert Nathans PC 49 Greater Manchester Police 27 February 1999 Collapsed and died after pursuing suspect on foot
Stephen Robin Oake, QGM DC 40 Greater Manchester Police 14 January 2003 Stabbed
Jonathan Bruce Odell PC 30 Kent County Constabulary 19 December 2000 Run over
Philip Michael Olds, QGM PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 1 October 1986 Shot
James O'Donnell, QPM DI 47 Lancashire Constabulary 13 December 1958 Shot
Francis Joseph O'Neill, QGM PC 31 Metropolitan Police Service 25 October 1980 Stabbed
Philip Pawsey, QPM Insp 40 Metropolitan Police Service 3 June 1961 Shot
William John Payne PC 37 Berkshire Constabulary 7 July 1949 Collapsed and died after pursuing burglar
Thomas William Perry Sgt 46 Metropolitan Police Service 20 May 1905 Collapsed and died after an arrest
Joseph Pickering WRC 54 Liverpool City Police 31 January 1942 Assaulted during violent arrest
Hosea Pope PC 33 Monmouthshire Constabulary 14 July 1911 Assaulted during violent arrest
James Brian Porter DC 31 Durham Constabulary 4 March 1982 Shot
John Tremlett Potter PC 46 Devon and Cornwall Constabulary 2 February 1938 Bludgeoned during an arrest
William Ezra Price PC 35 Staffordshire Constabulary 26 January 1903 Bludgeoned during an arrest
Robert Pritchard PC 49 Anglesey Constabulary 22 November 1924 Shot
Raymond William Purdy DS 43 Metropolitan Police Service 13 July 1959 Shot by Guenther Podola (last man in Britain executed for murdering a police officer)
Mandy Dawn Rayner WPC 18 Hertfordshire Constabulary 13 October 1982 Vehicle struck during police pursuit
Gerry Irving Richardson, GC Supt 38 Lancashire Constabulary 23 August 1971 Shot
Brian Arthur Rippingale PC 27 Essex Constabulary 2 September 1968 Run over accidentally while pursuing a suspect on foot
Christopher Roberts PC 47 Metropolitan Police Service 26 December 2007 Collapsed and died after a violent arrest
Derek John Carnie Robertson Sgt 39 Metropolitan Police Service 9 February 1994 Stabbed
Raymond George Robinson Sgt 55 British Transport Police 29 August 1975 Collapsed while struggling with a violent prisoner
Thomas Eldred B. Rowland PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 25 December 1919 Assaulted during an arrest
George William Russell, QPM PC 36 Cumberland, Westmorland & Carlisle Constabulary 10 February 1965 Shot
Leonard Russell PC 34 Metropolitan Police Service 13 November 1904 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Paul Salmon PC 28 Hampshire Constabulary 17 September 1982 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
John Sandford DC 45 Greater Manchester Police 2 May 1982 Attacked by youths suspected of indecent assault
Barry Saunders PC 31 South Yorkshire Police 24 November 1989 Fell through roof while searching burgled premises
Henry William Sawyer A/Sgt 36 Metropolitan Police Service 16 February 1918 Fatally injured during an arrest
John Schofield PC 27 Surrey Constabulary 6 July 1974 Shot
William Ralph Shiell PC 28 Durham County Constabulary 1 March 1940 Shot
Walter Shillum PC 37 Glamorgan Constabulary 4 May 1910 Stabbed
George Thomas Shepherd PC 39 Metropolitan Police Service 9 November 1938 Dragged by stolen vehicle while attempting an arrest
Charles William Sheppard PC 31 Birmingham City Police 23 May 1928 Beaten while attending a disturbance
Kulwant Singh Sidhu PC 24 Metropolitan Police Service 25 October 1999 Fell through roof while pursuing suspects
Anthony Richard Silcock PC 25 Hertfordshire Constabulary 7 April 1960 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Charles John Skevington PC 41 West Riding of Yorkshire Constabulary 19 July 1955 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Adam Smith PC 25 Perth City Police 23 April 1909 Collapsed and died pursuing nuisance youths
Albert Smith PC 35 Bradford City Police 25 January 1907 Assaulted during an arrest
Dennis Arthur Smith, QPM PC 44 Devon and Cornwall Constabulary 21 December 1973 Shot
Samuel Smith PC 36 Stockport Borough Police 18 October 1963 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Ernest Southern PC 35 Lancashire Constabulary 27 January 1962 Collapsed attending a violent street affray
Henry G. A. Speake PC 21 Shrewsbury Borough Police 3 August 1937 Drowned after pursuing suspect into a river
John Richard Speed Sgt 39 West Yorkshire Police 31 October 1984 Shot
James Stanford QGM DS 40 Wolverhampton Borough Police 20 August 1965 Stabbed
Jonathan Michael Stapley PC 27 Avon and Somerset Constabulary 29 December 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Matthew Walls Straughan PC 36 Durham County Constabulary 28 June 1927 Shot
Raymond Henry Summers PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 14 December 1958 Stabbed
Grant Clifford Sunnucks PC 30 Metropolitan Police Service 26 July 1984 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Michael Swindells, QGM DC 44 West Midlands Police 21 May 2004 Stabbed
Barry John Taylor Insp 30 West Yorkshire Police 15 February 1970 Shot
Frank Taylor PC 34 Hull City Police 28 May 1948 Assaulted during violent arrest
George William Chree Taylor PC 27 Strathclyde Police 30 November 1976 Attacked and fatally injured by escaped prisoners
John David Taylor PC 26 Staffordshire Police 23 November 1986 Pushed out of building by suspect
Ernest Thompson PC 32 Metropolitan Police Service 1 December 1900 Stabbed
Robert C. Thomson, MBE ACC 38 Edinburgh City Police 18 July 1940 Shot
Stephen Andrew Tibble, QPM PC 21 Metropolitan Police Service 26 February 1975 Shot
Gary Toms PC 26 Metropolitan Police Service 11 April 2009 Run over
Jeffrey Barry James Tooley PC 26 Sussex Police 25 April 1999 Run over
John Towers WRC 39 Blackburn Borough Police 27 December 1943 Assaulted
Charles Tucker Sgt 46 City of London Police 16 December 1910 Shot
Isaac Taylor PC 30 Lancashire Constabulary 24 May 1956 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
William Frederick Tyler PC 31 Metropolitan Police Service 29 January 1909 Shot
Sydney Arthur Tysoe PC 38 Lancashire Constabulary 29 November 1949 Assaulted
William Balfour Urquhart PC 49 Aberdeen City Police 22 March 1904 Collapsed and died attempting an arrest
Gerald Walker PC 42 Nottinghamshire Police 9 January 2003 Run over
Malcolm Edward Walker PC 46 West Midlands Police 4 October 2001 Vehicle struck during a pursuit
Arthur Walls Insp 44 Eastbourne Borough Police 9 October 1912 Shot
Stephen Paul Walker PC 23 Metropolitan Police Service 30 April 1983 Accidentally run over while pursuing suspects
Phillip John Walters PC 28 Metropolitan Police Service 18 April 1995 Shot
George William Wheatley PC 31 South Shields Borough Police 26 December 1957 Fell through roof while searching for a suspect
Michael Anthony Whiting, QPM PC 21 Metropolitan Police Service 5 May 1973 Dragged by a vehicle while attempting to arrest the driver
Kevin Mood Williams PC 31 South Wales Constabulary 23 October 1986 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Francis James Willis DS 35 Cambridge Borough Police 4 June 1930 Shot
Albert Willits PC 24 Wolverhampton Borough Police 18 January 1925 Shot
David Thomas Winter Sgt 31 North Yorkshire Police 28 June 1982 Shot
William Adiel Wilkinson PC 32 Leicestershire Constabulary 25 May 1903 Shot
Christopher Francis Wilson PC 28 Devon and Cornwall Constabulary 20 August 1977 Contracted fatal illness when spat on during football disturbance
David Wombwell DC 25 Metropolitan Police Service 12 August 1966 Shot
Ian Weir Woodward PC 33 Lancashire Constabulary 25 February 1987 Shot
William Reynolds Woolley PC 37 Lincolnshire Constabulary 26 August 1906 Collapsed and died during an arrest
Garry Wozencroft PC 35 South Wales Police 30 June 2000 Vehicle crashed during police pursuit
Stewart Mungo Whillis PC 37 Lancashire Constabulary 15 May 1907 Assaulted
James Wright PC 38 Manchester City Police 20 June 1934 Run over
Peter James Wringe PC 23 Essex Police 4 July 1982 Fell through roof while searching a premises
Alfred Young, KPM DC 36 Metropolitan Police Service 14 July 1915 Shot
"Well and patiently put now wait for the anti police abuse | |||
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" being totally honest the 3 warnings were the topic of much discussion before we went to south Armagh, we at that time also felt that our hands were tied to a dgree.. " Did you get to sleep in the in the containers in Crossmaglen? happy days! LoL Seriously though I fully agree with you we hated having our hands tied by the yellow card, but we just got on with the job and moaned as only booties and squadies can moan. But funnily enough it was only when Thatcher changed the armed officers policies after the 82 election and brought in the shopkeeper (get it as cheap as possible) mentality that we started seeing police shooting the wrong people. I seem to remember that Stephen Waldorf was the first...83 if I remember correctly... And since then its 1 every 2 or 3 years and always we hear the same crap about learning lessons and it wont happen again till next time... How many shots fired into De Menazese, 8 I believe... That was a good shooting too... I think not! Also I would point out that when the police were hunting for Bird last year after he HAD killed a police officer there were no "hard stops" and point blank gun play... Same with Raul Moat and Dale Creagan was able to walk into a police station after killing 2 female officers... Now maybe I have this all wrong but how many others see a pattern emerging? It certainly looks to me as if the police are not quite so fast to get up close and personal with real cop killers! But I am sure I've got that all wrong, didn't armed police shoot Michel Ryan...no got that wrong they were all missing after they heard he had killed an unarmed police man while he rampaged through Hungerford and managed to get there after he shot himself... convenient!
But dont worry we have been told by our police firearms training officer that the police are better trained that the armed forces...So everyone should rest easy... | |||
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" being totally honest the 3 warnings were the topic of much discussion before we went to south Armagh, we at that time also felt that our hands were tied to a dgree.. Did you get to sleep in the in the containers in Crossmaglen? happy days! LoL Seriously though I fully agree with you we hated having our hands tied by the yellow card, but we just got on with the job and moaned as only booties and squadies can moan. But funnily enough it was only when Thatcher changed the armed officers policies after the 82 election and brought in the shopkeeper (get it as cheap as possible) mentality that we started seeing police shooting the wrong people. I seem to remember that Stephen Waldorf was the first...83 if I remember correctly... And since then its 1 every 2 or 3 years and always we hear the same crap about learning lessons and it wont happen again till next time... How many shots fired into De Menazese, 8 I believe... That was a good shooting too... I think not! Also I would point out that when the police were hunting for Bird last year after he HAD killed a police officer there were no "hard stops" and point blank gun play... Same with Raul Moat and Dale Creagan was able to walk into a police station after killing 2 female officers... Now maybe I have this all wrong but how many others see a pattern emerging? It certainly looks to me as if the police are not quite so fast to get up close and personal with real cop killers! But I am sure I've got that all wrong, didn't armed police shoot Michel Ryan...no got that wrong they were all missing after they heard he had killed an unarmed police man while he rampaged through Hungerford and managed to get there after he shot himself... convenient!
But dont worry we have been told by our police firearms training officer that the police are better trained that the armed forces...So everyone should rest easy... "So what's the solution?? | |||
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" being totally honest the 3 warnings were the topic of much discussion before we went to south Armagh, we at that time also felt that our hands were tied to a dgree.. Did you get to sleep in the in the containers in Crossmaglen? happy days! LoL Seriously though I fully agree with you we hated having our hands tied by the yellow card, but we just got on with the job and moaned as only booties and squadies can moan. But funnily enough it was only when Thatcher changed the armed officers policies after the 82 election and brought in the shopkeeper (get it as cheap as possible) mentality that we started seeing police shooting the wrong people. I seem to remember that Stephen Waldorf was the first...83 if I remember correctly... And since then its 1 every 2 or 3 years and always we hear the same crap about learning lessons and it wont happen again till next time... How many shots fired into De Menazese, 8 I believe... That was a good shooting too... I think not! Also I would point out that when the police were hunting for Bird last year after he HAD killed a police officer there were no "hard stops" and point blank gun play... Same with Raul Moat and Dale Creagan was able to walk into a police station after killing 2 female officers... Now maybe I have this all wrong but how many others see a pattern emerging? It certainly looks to me as if the police are not quite so fast to get up close and personal with real cop killers! But I am sure I've got that all wrong, didn't armed police shoot Michel Ryan...no got that wrong they were all missing after they heard he had killed an unarmed police man while he rampaged through Hungerford and managed to get there after he shot himself... convenient!
But dont worry we have been told by our police firearms training officer that the police are better trained that the armed forces...So everyone should rest easy... "Wouldn't say better trained differently yes. I think that a lot of the service people he talked about are the once a year range folk. I think the average squaddie (boot necks included ) are very highly trained in a multitude of wepons | |||
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"The police didn't come out of this smelling of roses, to be honest. Lots of questions to be answered. Looking at how the jury answered the questions that were asked of them, it looks like it could have gone either way. Most importantly, had the police made a good enough attempt at intelligence gathering prior to the event - no. And was he in possession of a gun when he was shot, again - no...wouldn't have taken much for the decision they made, to be flipped. Sorry about looking at this in an intelligent, analytical fashion, rather than saying the little fucker deserved to die..." pmsl | |||
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"I do always wonder why they couldnt have taken him down re a hit to the leg ?. The evil bastards who killed lee rigby were maimed...not killed yet their weapons were visible..... Go figure . .................................... A man shot and only wounded will always be a threat to your own life. Wounding isn't an option unless you fancy getting shot yourself , and it dont half hurt. !!! Live by the sword and you have got to accept dying by it surely."the Police shoot to kill. Which bus why there Training is so demanding! Lee Rigbys Killers lived due to the skill of paramedics on the scene, the police officers who fired the shots an the surgeons who attended them! The officer who was referred to in the trial was ways going to be out out in the press. A woman with a gun outrageous! ( sic) there's a great point above. Families suffering and a jury hearing all the evidence. Not sound bites. If we listened carefully wed have noticed the 'thrown from the car' comment was made by a Lawyer who wasn't there and whise comments were not corroborated by anyone at the scene including the four poor buggers waiting fir the bus! | |||
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" being totally honest the 3 warnings were the topic of much discussion before we went to south Armagh, we at that time also felt that our hands were tied to a dgree.. Did you get to sleep in the in the containers in Crossmaglen? happy days! LoL Seriously though I fully agree with you we hated having our hands tied by the yellow card, but we just got on with the job and moaned as only booties and squadies can moan. But funnily enough it was only when Thatcher changed the armed officers policies after the 82 election and brought in the shopkeeper (get it as cheap as possible) mentality that we started seeing police shooting the wrong people. I seem to remember that Stephen Waldorf was the first...83 if I remember correctly... And since then its 1 every 2 or 3 years and always we hear the same crap about learning lessons and it wont happen again till next time... How many shots fired into De Menazese, 8 I believe... That was a good shooting too... I think not! Also I would point out that when the police were hunting for Bird last year after he HAD killed a police officer there were no "hard stops" and point blank gun play... Same with Raul Moat and Dale Creagan was able to walk into a police station after killing 2 female officers... Now maybe I have this all wrong but how many others see a pattern emerging? It certainly looks to me as if the police are not quite so fast to get up close and personal with real cop killers! But I am sure I've got that all wrong, didn't armed police shoot Michel Ryan...no got that wrong they were all missing after they heard he had killed an unarmed police man while he rampaged through Hungerford and managed to get there after he shot himself... convenient!
But dont worry we have been told by our police firearms training officer that the police are better trained that the armed forces...So everyone should rest easy...
So what's the solution??"Lets go back to the way that worked, an unarmed police except for special branch, the royal and diplomatic protection squads. With firearms only being issued under "extraordinary circumstances" but with military marksmen available to "give aid to the civilian authorities" as required. Of course that would mean re-manning the forces to the pre 82 numbers so that we have the personnel to do the job and keep up the training standards... Not going to happen of course, so police will keep trying to do jobs they are not designed or properly trained to do and tragedies will keep happening...people like me will keep railing on and being ignored...
But dont worry some are making money out of the continual cuts... | |||
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"... How many people shouted 'I'd have shot the bastard' when Lee Rigbys Kiklers charged armed officers ? Why did he survive ? Because Police Training is such that in extreme stress situation someone made the right call! Buth were shot both were lucky that their own acts had some of the best paramedics nearby! As for the police aes response times. The three ARVs fir the 'area' were trailing a suspected armed robbery gang when they heard about 'armed' people in Woolwich. Eight minutes to cyber six miles in S London? Does t sound like teams holding back and worrying about there own safety. .......... I can't agree. The 'right call' would have been to shoot both of them dead. Not because of what they'd done to Rigby but because of what they could have done to the police officers in attendance. Thinking back I reckon the cops were firing from a confined space which might well have inhibited their movements." | |||
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" being totally honest the 3 warnings were the topic of much discussion before we went to south Armagh, we at that time also felt that our hands were tied to a dgree.. Did you get to sleep in the in the containers in Crossmaglen? happy days! LoL Seriously though I fully agree with you we hated having our hands tied by the yellow card, but we just got on with the job and moaned as only booties and squadies can moan. But funnily enough it was only when Thatcher changed the armed officers policies after the 82 election and brought in the shopkeeper (get it as cheap as possible) mentality that we started seeing police shooting the wrong people. I seem to remember that Stephen Waldorf was the first...83 if I remember correctly... And since then its 1 every 2 or 3 years and always we hear the same crap about learning lessons and it wont happen again till next time... How many shots fired into De Menazese, 8 I believe... That was a good shooting too... I think not! Also I would point out that when the police were hunting for Bird last year after he HAD killed a police officer there were no "hard stops" and point blank gun play... Same with Raul Moat and Dale Creagan was able to walk into a police station after killing 2 female officers... Now maybe I have this all wrong but how many others see a pattern emerging? It certainly looks to me as if the police are not quite so fast to get up close and personal with real cop killers! But I am sure I've got that all wrong, didn't armed police shoot Michel Ryan...no got that wrong they were all missing after they heard he had killed an unarmed police man while he rampaged through Hungerford and managed to get there after he shot himself... convenient!
But dont worry we have been told by our police firearms training officer that the police are better trained that the armed forces...So everyone should rest easy...
So what's the solution??
Lets go back to the way that worked, an unarmed police except for special branch, the royal and diplomatic protection squads. With firearms only being issued under "extraordinary circumstances" but with military marksmen available to "give aid to the civilian authorities" as required. Of course that would mean re-manning the forces to the pre 82 numbers so that we have the personnel to do the job and keep up the training standards...
Not going to happen of course, so police will keep trying to do jobs they are not designed or properly trained to do and tragedies will keep happening...people like me will keep railing on and being ignored...
But dont worry some are making money out of the continual cuts..."I agree, your obviously well informed on this subject, maybe the blame lies with the police hierarchy and the government, rather than the individual officers | |||
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" being totally honest the 3 warnings were the topic of much discussion before we went to south Armagh, we at that time also felt that our hands were tied to a dgree.. Did you get to sleep in the in the containers in Crossmaglen? happy days! LoL Seriously though I fully agree with you we hated having our hands tied by the yellow card, but we just got on with the job and moaned as only booties and squadies can moan. But funnily enough it was only when Thatcher changed the armed officers policies after the 82 election and brought in the shopkeeper (get it as cheap as possible) mentality that we started seeing police shooting the wrong people. I seem to remember that Stephen Waldorf was the first...83 if I remember correctly... And since then its 1 every 2 or 3 years and always we hear the same crap about learning lessons and it wont happen again till next time... How many shots fired into De Menazese, 8 I believe... That was a good shooting too... I think not! Also I would point out that when the police were hunting for Bird last year after he HAD killed a police officer there were no "hard stops" and point blank gun play... Same with Raul Moat and Dale Creagan was able to walk into a police station after killing 2 female officers... Now maybe I have this all wrong but how many others see a pattern emerging? It certainly looks to me as if the police are not quite so fast to get up close and personal with real cop killers! But I am sure I've got that all wrong, didn't armed police shoot Michel Ryan...no got that wrong they were all missing after they heard he had killed an unarmed police man while he rampaged through Hungerford and managed to get there after he shot himself... convenient!
But dont worry we have been told by our police firearms training officer that the police are better trained that the armed forces...So everyone should rest easy...
So what's the solution??
Lets go back to the way that worked, an unarmed police except for special branch, the royal and diplomatic protection squads. With firearms only being issued under "extraordinary circumstances" but with military marksmen available to "give aid to the civilian authorities" as required. Of course that would mean re-manning the forces to the pre 82 numbers so that we have the personnel to do the job and keep up the training standards...
Not going to happen of course, so police will keep trying to do jobs they are not designed or properly trained to do and tragedies will keep happening...people like me will keep railing on and being ignored...
But dont worry some are making money out of the continual cuts..."Forces back to pre 82 not going to happen people happy to see armed forces being used not going to happen mistakes made again more than likely in this case verdict lawful killing which is the point of our judicial system. Because people don't like the verdict dosnt make it the wrong one | |||
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" being totally honest the 3 warnings were the topic of much discussion before we went to south Armagh, we at that time also felt that our hands were tied to a dgree.. Did you get to sleep in the in the containers in Crossmaglen? happy days! LoL Seriously though I fully agree with you we hated having our hands tied by the yellow card, but we just got on with the job and moaned as only booties and squadies can moan. But funnily enough it was only when Thatcher changed the armed officers policies after the 82 election and brought in the shopkeeper (get it as cheap as possible) mentality that we started seeing police shooting the wrong people. I seem to remember that Stephen Waldorf was the first...83 if I remember correctly... And since then its 1 every 2 or 3 years and always we hear the same crap about learning lessons and it wont happen again till next time... How many shots fired into De Menazese, 8 I believe... That was a good shooting too... I think not! Also I would point out that when the police were hunting for Bird last year after he HAD killed a police officer there were no "hard stops" and point blank gun play... Same with Raul Moat and Dale Creagan was able to walk into a police station after killing 2 female officers... Now maybe I have this all wrong but how many others see a pattern emerging? It certainly looks to me as if the police are not quite so fast to get up close and personal with real cop killers! But I am sure I've got that all wrong, didn't armed police shoot Michel Ryan...no got that wrong they were all missing after they heard he had killed an unarmed police man while he rampaged through Hungerford and managed to get there after he shot himself... convenient!
But dont worry we have been told by our police firearms training officer that the police are better trained that the armed forces...So everyone should rest easy...
So what's the solution??
Lets go back to the way that worked, an unarmed police except for special branch, the royal and diplomatic protection squads. With firearms only being issued under "extraordinary circumstances" but with military marksmen available to "give aid to the civilian authorities" as required. Of course that would mean re-manning the forces to the pre 82 numbers so that we have the personnel to do the job and keep up the training standards...
Not going to happen of course, so police will keep trying to do jobs they are not designed or properly trained to do and tragedies will keep happening...people like me will keep railing on and being ignored...
But dont worry some are making money out of the continual cuts..."Not properly trained to do ? Based on what personal experience do you base that ? They don't operate in a military environment so the military's tactics aren't appropriate. Besides a large percentage of them are ex forces anyway. Put aside your prejudice and debate objectively. | |||
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"If you were issuing three verbal warnings when the threat to life was imminent then you clearly DID NOT understand 'Yellow Card' ROE! " bit surprised that someone with your background did not read what i said fully.. 'as i recall' ring any bells.. should have added that it was 1980 that i was referring to so pardon my bad memory.. on the rest of your post i agree.. | |||
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"The police shoot to stop... There is no shoot to kill and no shoot to wound... The only reason people who are shot live or die is down to luck... " 7 shots into the back of the head of a man sat on a tube train seat would indicate a probable intent to kill. I have seen a police commissioner statement that they will shoot to kill, have never seen one that states shoot to stop. | |||
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" being totally honest the 3 warnings were the topic of much discussion before we went to south Armagh, we at that time also felt that our hands were tied to a dgree.. Did you get to sleep in the in the containers in Crossmaglen? happy days! LoL " spent time at Forkhill, Bessbrook and Castledillon.. only ever transitted in and out of Xmg by air and on a cpl of occasions by road.. interesting times.. | |||
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"He came from a well known crime family & his uncle is a big gang boss, he had a gun & wanted to play with the big boys...if you have a gun you expect to get shot at." Did he? the gun in evidence was found 10 to 20 feet away, had no fingerprint or DNA to show Duggan had touched it, his hands also had no gun residue on them, there is evidence he was using his phone though. | |||
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" Not properly trained to do ? Based on what personal experience do you base that ? They don't operate in a military environment so the military's tactics aren't appropriate. Besides a large percentage of them are ex forces anyway. Put aside your prejudice and debate objectively. " Between 1978 and 1981, I was deployed on a number of occasions to supply armed response for civilian authorities. I was officially a policeman if required, complete with warrant card that was held by the controlling police officer and handed to me as I went out the door to do my job (we were always under the orders of a police officer). (It was kept in my P file along with my dog tags when not on active duty.) When deployed in that roll it was never for more than 4 weeks and was preceded by weeks of intensive training on ETR's and in black rooms. We worked in quite large units and never spent more than 4 hours on standby so we were always fresh. Police by virtue of their roll in law enforcement cant spend that sort of time training for something that will only happen a few times a year, while troops are training for armed conflict all the time so using them really costs nothing (providing you have the troops in the first place). As for your comment about military environment as soon as firearms come into play military tactics have to be employed that is why the most countries have paramilitary police units that spend all their time in military training. We used to use our military because we were so well trained there was no need for paramilitary units. So I think I may be in a much better position to comment than most here and that maybe it is you who need to reconsider your position. " It's staggering. The fiction spouted as fact, people's naivety and even outright stupidity. The police shoot to stop... There is no shoot to kill and no shoot to wound... The only reason people who are shot live or die is down to luck... " It's staggering. The fiction spouted as fact, people's naivety and even outright stupidity. Shooting to stop is nothing but a politically correct way of saying "shoot to kill". You aim to hit the main mass of the target, that is a shot to the chest. Aiming at the chest is aiming to kill! Just to be clear I am fully in favor of this. | |||
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