FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > independence referendum cont.
independence referendum cont.
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"such as? Seriously you want me to list Scotland's assets? How about 8.4% of everything the uk owns. Worth 109 billion. The ones you think you can take - yes please.. and presumably that will be the same basis for calculating the ownership of all assets? That would cock the figures up a fair bit wouldn't it!" Im sure there will be a lot of dodgy dealings done in the background between the 2 governments. As thats what politicians do. Only the Yes campaign know what assets they want and what they will give up for them. My thinking is what remains of the UK will get a % of the revenue of oil, which will give Scotland a lot of negotiation power. | |||
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"if scotland wants to have independence then fair play, hope you make a go of it. but your expenditure for 2012 was 53 billion and that doesnt include defence, and scotland may have assets but will that pay your bills?." Scotland's income will indeed pay it's bills. Our defence budget won't need to be nearly as if as it is now. We can tailor policy to maximise potential for Scotland ratcher than this one size fits all uk. | |||
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"On the subject of assets. It might be worth watching The Men Who Own Scotland on BBC1 Scotland at 22.40 tonight, Weds 8th Jan 2014. Those of us who remember 7:84 all those years ago might be disappointed to discover little has changed." Yep I will likely watch it and will be interesting. SNP have already said they will look into ways on how to redistribute land within scotland, as its not very fair that less than 1% of people own 50% of the land in Scotland. Under a conservative UK this has always been perfectly acceptable of course  | |||
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If it goes ahead I hope it works - because somehow I suspect it won't be particularly easy to go back to how things are now. | |||
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"How do you feel about the Spanish PM wanting an independent Scotland having to re apply to be part of EU? Also not having the pound but the Euro? " The spannish pm is just looking to his own country with that. Because hes worried that Catalans will then want independence. Also the spanish will have an election next year, so he might not be much of a problem. Regarding the Euro. I cant see past us using the pound. Scotland will be the biggest trading partner of what remains of the UK. It suits the UK much better if we remain using the pound. Its all just scare tactics by Westminster. Which is their tactic for most of this. | |||
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"How do you feel about the Spanish PM wanting an independent Scotland having to re apply to be part of EU? Also not having the pound but the Euro? " He isn't speaking to us but to catalonia. There is no chance anyone will block Scotland's continuating membership of the eu as it's harms their own economy, Spain included as the have many fisherman in the North Sea at the moment. The euro isn't an option and isn't being discussed by any of the groups up here. We'll keep the pound. Anyone suggesting we can't use it forgets that we own the Bank of England and that it sets interest rates independently of government. The no camp may shout about what if you can't use the pound etc etc but the reality is that the day after a yes vote they will want us to keep the pound. It's in the uk's interests. | |||
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"How do you feel about the Spanish PM wanting an independent Scotland having to re apply to be part of EU? Also not having the pound but the Euro? The spannish pm is just looking to his own country with that. Because hes worried that Catalans will then want independence. Also the spanish will have an election next year, so he might not be much of a problem. Regarding the Euro. I cant see past us using the pound. Scotland will be the biggest trading partner of what remains of the UK. It suits the UK much better if we remain using the pound. Its all just scare tactics by Westminster. Which is their tactic for most of this. " He is looking out for his own interests but what if he gets his way? And if he does and you have to re join as an as a new state then you have to use the euro as the op out to keep sterling was for UK ( which you won't be part of ) remember Southern Ireland is euro | |||
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"How do you feel about the Spanish PM wanting an independent Scotland having to re apply to be part of EU? Also not having the pound but the Euro? The spannish pm is just looking to his own country with that. Because hes worried that Catalans will then want independence. Also the spanish will have an election next year, so he might not be much of a problem. Regarding the Euro. I cant see past us using the pound. Scotland will be the biggest trading partner of what remains of the UK. It suits the UK much better if we remain using the pound. Its all just scare tactics by Westminster. Which is their tactic for most of this. He is looking out for his own interests but what if he gets his way? And if he does and you have to re join as an as a new state then you have to use the euro as the op out to keep sterling was for UK ( which you won't be part of ) remember Southern Ireland is euro "You don't have to be in the UK to use sterling. Southern Ireland used sterling until the eighties! | |||
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"Do the English get a vote?" Yes if they are resident in Scotland as do all other residents entitled to vote no matter what nationality. Scots living in England do not have the right. Not sure if Shpanish dwelling ex pat Sean Connery hash a hoosh here any more. Shum shay he should keep schtum on indepenansh..... | |||
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"How do you feel about the Spanish PM wanting an independent Scotland having to re apply to be part of EU? Also not having the pound but the Euro? The spannish pm is just looking to his own country with that. Because hes worried that Catalans will then want independence. Also the spanish will have an election next year, so he might not be much of a problem. Regarding the Euro. I cant see past us using the pound. Scotland will be the biggest trading partner of what remains of the UK. It suits the UK much better if we remain using the pound. Its all just scare tactics by Westminster. Which is their tactic for most of this. He is looking out for his own interests but what if he gets his way? And if he does and you have to re join as an as a new state then you have to use the euro as the op out to keep sterling was for UK ( which you won't be part of ) remember Southern Ireland is euro "Well were a slightly special case, as if we need to re-apply which does look likely, we will be applying while still a member, currently using that UK opt out regarding currency. Obviously nobody can give 100% answers on something like that until it happens though. Which I will admit is the case for a lot of stuff regarding independence. | |||
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"Do the English get a vote? Yes if they are resident in Scotland as do all other residents entitled to vote no matter what nationality. Scots living in England do not have the right. Not sure if Shpanish dwelling ex pat Sean Connery hash a hoosh here any more. Shum shay he should keep schtum on indepenansh..... "Thanks! And it's interesting which side of the fence some of the big name celebs seem to be on - especially those that have lived abroad for donkeys years in LA/New York etc. And no - I don't mean Fergie!  | |||
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"How do you feel about the Spanish PM wanting an independent Scotland having to re apply to be part of EU? Also not having the pound but the Euro? " Of course Scotland, as a newly independent country, should have to go through accession again if it wants to be part of the EU...not that this should be a problem for it, and I doubt it'll take as long other newly accessed countries. The EU certainly won't want to lose any contributing states due to this. The euro isn't an opt-in either, it's quite a complicated negotiation to opt out, and it might make more sense to adopt the euro than to contract the use of the pound... | |||
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"How do you feel about the Spanish PM wanting an independent Scotland having to re apply to be part of EU? Also not having the pound but the Euro? The spannish pm is just looking to his own country with that. Because hes worried that Catalans will then want independence. Also the spanish will have an election next year, so he might not be much of a problem. Regarding the Euro. I cant see past us using the pound. Scotland will be the biggest trading partner of what remains of the UK. It suits the UK much better if we remain using the pound. Its all just scare tactics by Westminster. Which is their tactic for most of this. He is looking out for his own interests but what if he gets his way? And if he does and you have to re join as an as a new state then you have to use the euro as the op out to keep sterling was for UK ( which you won't be part of ) remember Southern Ireland is euro
Well were a slightly special case, as if we need to re-apply which does look likely, we will be applying while still a member, currently using that UK opt out regarding currency.
Obviously nobody can give 100% answers on something like that until it happens though. Which I will admit is the case for a lot of stuff regarding independence."Thank you for that interesting to know incase us welsh have a go | |||
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" He is looking out for his own interests but what if he gets his way? And if he does and you have to re join as an as a new state then you have to use the euro as the op out to keep sterling was for UK ( which you won't be part of ) remember Southern Ireland is euro "He won't. There is political posturing and there is cutting your nose off to spite your face. He won't. It makes no sense. We have been European citizens for 40 years. Leaving the uk doesn't change that. We meet the criteria and we are worth more to Europe in than out. We will renegotiate our continuing membership in the year and a half between referendum and independence day. | |||
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"How do you feel about the Spanish PM wanting an independent Scotland having to re apply to be part of EU? Also not having the pound but the Euro? The spannish pm is just looking to his own country with that. Because hes worried that Catalans will then want independence. Also the spanish will have an election next year, so he might not be much of a problem. Regarding the Euro. I cant see past us using the pound. Scotland will be the biggest trading partner of what remains of the UK. It suits the UK much better if we remain using the pound. Its all just scare tactics by Westminster. Which is their tactic for most of this. He is looking out for his own interests but what if he gets his way? And if he does and you have to re join as an as a new state then you have to use the euro as the op out to keep sterling was for UK ( which you won't be part of ) remember Southern Ireland is euro
You don't have to be in the UK to use sterling. Southern Ireland used sterling until the eighties! "Untill 2002 in fact | |||
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"How do you feel about the Spanish PM wanting an independent Scotland having to re apply to be part of EU? Also not having the pound but the Euro? The spannish pm is just looking to his own country with that. Because hes worried that Catalans will then want independence. Also the spanish will have an election next year, so he might not be much of a problem. Regarding the Euro. I cant see past us using the pound. Scotland will be the biggest trading partner of what remains of the UK. It suits the UK much better if we remain using the pound. Its all just scare tactics by Westminster. Which is their tactic for most of this. He is looking out for his own interests but what if he gets his way? And if he does and you have to re join as an as a new state then you have to use the euro as the op out to keep sterling was for UK ( which you won't be part of ) remember Southern Ireland is euro
You don't have to be in the UK to use sterling. Southern Ireland used sterling until the eighties!
Untill 2002 in fact "1979 I think. Currency union with sterling. Then the Irish pound. Then euro in 2002. | |||
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"How do you feel about the Spanish PM wanting an independent Scotland having to re apply to be part of EU? Also not having the pound but the Euro? The spannish pm is just looking to his own country with that. Because hes worried that Catalans will then want independence. Also the spanish will have an election next year, so he might not be much of a problem. Regarding the Euro. I cant see past us using the pound. Scotland will be the biggest trading partner of what remains of the UK. It suits the UK much better if we remain using the pound. Its all just scare tactics by Westminster. Which is their tactic for most of this. He is looking out for his own interests but what if he gets his way? And if he does and you have to re join as an as a new state then you have to use the euro as the op out to keep sterling was for UK ( which you won't be part of ) remember Southern Ireland is euro
You don't have to be in the UK to use sterling. Southern Ireland used sterling until the eighties!
Untill 2002 in fact
1979 I think. Currency union with sterling. Then the Irish pound. Then euro in 2002. "Fair enough all I remember was ex inlaws (Dublin) mentioning euros in 2002 | |||
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"The answers to most of the questions on here are contained in this short video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buiXDbgnc4M" I urge everyone to watch that video. Thanks for posting it. | |||
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"Do the English get a vote?" Only if they live in Scotland | |||
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"You don't have to be in the UK to use sterling. Southern Ireland used sterling until the eighties!" I think reparations in Ireland are a completely different matter. Republic of Ireland had the Irish Pound, fully separate from Sterling from 1979, but it was a long process to get there. Ireland certainly didn't choose to stay with Sterling once it had other options... | |||
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"The answers to most of the questions on here are contained in this short video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buiXDbgnc4M" that was sooo funny
Its true though, even the no supporters are nice people, except for Alistair Darling, hes just weird  | |||
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" that was sooo funny
Its true though, even the no supporters are nice people, except for Alistair Darling, hes just weird "It's great isn't it? Seen it a few times but wish I'd posted it earlier. Might have save me some typing! | |||
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"Yeah exactly, I just hope the undecideds dont just vote no out of fear. If it ends up being a no vote, that will be the reason. Fear. " The bbc being pro union is a huge problem. For a lot of people that's all they see of the debate. | |||
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"Good luck to all you scots if it's what you want " | |||
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"Yeah exactly, I just hope the undecideds dont just vote no out of fear. If it ends up being a no vote, that will be the reason. Fear. " Or is that simply an excuse in advance if things don't go the way of the yes camp ? Might surprise you to know that the no camp also have made a reasoned decision.  | |||
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" Or is that simply an excuse in advance if things don't go the way of the yes camp ? Might surprise you to know that the no camp also have made a reasoned decision. "What else would the reasons be? We pay more in than we get out so it's not financial. We are attached to nation with a history of invading countries and this makes us a target so it's not security. We don't vote Tory but we get them so it's not democracy. What else, other than fear of being without the perceived safety of being part of a big country, would the reason be for voting no? | |||
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"Yeah exactly, I just hope the undecideds dont just vote no out of fear. If it ends up being a no vote, that will be the reason. Fear. Or is that simply an excuse in advance if things don't go the way of the yes camp ? Might surprise you to know that the no camp also have made a reasoned decision. "Absolutely some have made a reasoned decision to vote no, and I respect their decision. But there is a large percentage of people in Scotland that just dont know how they will vote. If they still dont know by polling day but they still vote, the likeliest way they will vote is the safest way, to vote for what they have always known. That is fear. Which is only natural. | |||
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"I think it may well be better for all, if the Scots do vote for independence because I think there will be a lot of ill feeling south of the border after September." It'll be the best thing for politics in the rest of the UK as well as Scotland. I don't blame people for being frustrated and displaying apathy to politics. What kind of society has hundreds of unelected buffoons in a House of Lords? By taking a positive step into independence, maybe the remaining countries will look at what Scotland are doing (equality, non nuclear, non demonisation of the unemployed etc) and demand the same. | |||
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"I think it may well be better for all, if the Scots do vote for independence because I think there will be a lot of ill feeling south of the border after September." Ill feelings north of the border for years is the cause of the referendum. The UK governments poor handling of Scotland throughout the years is to blame. | |||
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"I think it may well be better for all, if the Scots do vote for independence because I think there will be a lot of ill feeling south of the border after September. Ill feelings north of the border for years is the cause of the referendum. The UK governments poor handling of Scotland throughout the years is to blame." Yes but I think in England it's provoking quite a change. Whereas previously people would have shown littke interest/concern I think there's a growing resentment that England is now the country with least control over the decisions that the other countries are able to benefit from - Education, prescriptions, transport etc. My bet now is that if there were a referendum in each country of the UK for independence - England may well be the country that would vote most convincingly to leave the UK. I suspect though that Scotland will not vote for independence and instead we'll get simmering, grumbling discontent. Though we're good at that. | |||
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"As im not a scot, i know little about it. Though i did watch a programme and on it ,it said that if independant....cameron wont allow the scots to keep the pound....
"Cameron can't stop us I'm afraid. No one can. We can use whatever we like. | |||
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"As im not a scot, i know little about it. Though i did watch a programme and on it ,it said that if independant....cameron wont allow the scots to keep the pound....
Cameron can't stop us I'm afraid. No one can. We can use whatever we like." | |||
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"I think it may well be better for all, if the Scots do vote for independence because I think there will be a lot of ill feeling south of the border after September. Ill feelings north of the border for years is the cause of the referendum. The UK governments poor handling of Scotland throughout the years is to blame. Yes but I think in England it's provoking quite a change. Whereas previously people would have shown littke interest/concern I think there's a growing resentment that England is now the country with least control over the decisions that the other countries are able to benefit from - Education, prescriptions, transport etc. My bet now is that if there were a referendum in each country of the UK for independence - England may well be the country that would vote most convincingly to leave the UK. I suspect though that Scotland will not vote for independence and instead we'll get simmering, grumbling discontent. Though we're good at that." Yeah i see what your saying, ive always thought England should have its own government. Away from westminster. England has very very little national identity left sadly, Few know where the UK starts and England ends. But stuff like that is down to your own elected ministers. Even the westminster government. Devolution in Scotland was a ploy by labour to gain more votes and an attempt to put independence to bed. How much did that backfire though? | |||
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"As im not a scot, i know little about it. Though i did watch a programme and on it ,it said that if independant....cameron wont allow the scots to keep the pound....
Cameron can't stop us I'm afraid. No one can. We can use whatever we like."I genuinely hope you don't believe that. It's folly of the highest order. | |||
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"As im not a scot, i know little about it. Though i did watch a programme and on it ,it said that if independant....cameron wont allow the scots to keep the pound....
Cameron can't stop us I'm afraid. No one can. We can use whatever we like.
I genuinely hope you don't believe that. It's folly of the highest order."And shows the silo minded thinking of too many blindly voting yes and trying to railroad others into their way of thinking........ | |||
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"As im not a scot, i know little about it. Though i did watch a programme and on it ,it said that if independant....cameron wont allow the scots to keep the pound....
Cameron can't stop us I'm afraid. No one can. We can use whatever we like.
I genuinely hope you don't believe that. It's folly of the highest order."again you post just to say no to something but dont give your reasons. So please enlighten us. | |||
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"Yeah i see what your saying, ive always thought England should have its own government. Away from westminster. England has very very little national identity left sadly, Few know where the UK starts and England ends. But stuff like that is down to your own elected ministers. Even the westminster government. Devolution in Scotland was a ploy by labour to gain more votes and an attempt to put independence to bed. How much did that backfire though?" I think it's rather more to do with history than 'our' elected officials. And I think it would be very wrong to assume there is little national identity in England. It's more the case that people in England have long considered themselves British, but are maybe now increasingly thinking of themselves as English, spurred by the nationalism within the other countries. | |||
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"Yeah exactly, I just hope the undecideds dont just vote no out of fear. If it ends up being a no vote, that will be the reason. Fear. Or is that simply an excuse in advance if things don't go the way of the yes camp ? Might surprise you to know that the no camp also have made a reasoned decision.
Absolutely some have made a reasoned decision to vote no, and I respect their decision. But there is a large percentage of people in Scotland that just dont know how they will vote.
If they still dont know by polling day but they still vote, the likeliest way they will vote is the safest way, to vote for what they have always known. That is fear. Which is only natural.
"Is this the same fear/intimidation I witnessed in a bar near skye where a history teacher threatened to kick the no vote out his 16 year old daughter? I dont think for one moment you would condone that ! However many do and its pathetic.  | |||
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"Yeah exactly, I just hope the undecideds dont just vote no out of fear. If it ends up being a no vote, that will be the reason. Fear. Or is that simply an excuse in advance if things don't go the way of the yes camp ? Might surprise you to know that the no camp also have made a reasoned decision.
Absolutely some have made a reasoned decision to vote no, and I respect their decision. But there is a large percentage of people in Scotland that just dont know how they will vote.
If they still dont know by polling day but they still vote, the likeliest way they will vote is the safest way, to vote for what they have always known. That is fear. Which is only natural.
Is this the same fear/intimidation I witnessed in a bar near skye where a history teacher threatened to kick the no vote out his 16 year old daughter? I dont think for one moment you would condone that ! However many do and its pathetic. "Im sorry but you believe 1 man being abusive to his daughter is something that a lot of Scots would accept???? | |||
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" Or is that simply an excuse in advance if things don't go the way of the yes camp ? Might surprise you to know that the no camp also have made a reasoned decision.
What else would the reasons be? We pay more in than we get out so it's not financial. We are attached to nation with a history of invading countries and this makes us a target so it's not security. We don't vote Tory but we get them so it's not democracy. What else, other than fear of being without the perceived safety of being part of a big country, would the reason be for voting no? "I think you will find there are numerous reasons to vote no. I just don't feel the need to jump all over others with differing opinions unlike some in both camps. | |||
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"I think it may well be better for all, if the Scots do vote for independence because I think there will be a lot of ill feeling south of the border after September. It'll be the best thing for politics in the rest of the UK as well as Scotland. I don't blame people for being frustrated and displaying apathy to politics. What kind of society has hundreds of unelected buffoons in a House of Lords? By taking a positive step into independence, maybe the remaining countries will look at what Scotland are doing (equality, non nuclear, non demonisation of the unemployed etc) and demand the same. " Whilst I can't fault your enthusiasm for a yes vote and an independent Scotland I can fault the fact that you are always quoting from the SNP manifesto i.e. "Scotland's Future" (the White Paper). If you have read any of it, even just Mr Salmond's intro you'll know that the things you are certain will happen will only happen, firstly, if there is a yes vote and secondly if the SNP get elected as a majority in a Scottish Government. Both have to happen for the SNP to give what they are promising just now. If they don't get back in then whatever party or parties that do hold the power (if there is a yes vote) can then make whatever changes they want or leave things exactly as they are just now e.g. leave Trident in place! | |||
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" I genuinely hope you don't believe that. It's folly of the highest order." Yes I do believe it and no it isn't folly. The currency union (not exactly a new idea) has been the recommendation if numerous experts and it is clearly the best option for both countries following a yes vote. To do anything but this, is to add barriers where there is no need for them. This will cost money on both sides. So tell me why they "won't allow it?" | |||
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" I think you will find there are numerous reasons to vote no. I just don't feel the need to jump all over others with differing opinions unlike some in both camps. " What are they? | |||
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"Yeah exactly, I just hope the undecideds dont just vote no out of fear. If it ends up being a no vote, that will be the reason. Fear. Or is that simply an excuse in advance if things don't go the way of the yes camp ? Might surprise you to know that the no camp also have made a reasoned decision.
Absolutely some have made a reasoned decision to vote no, and I respect their decision. But there is a large percentage of people in Scotland that just dont know how they will vote.
If they still dont know by polling day but they still vote, the likeliest way they will vote is the safest way, to vote for what they have always known. That is fear. Which is only natural.
Is this the same fear/intimidation I witnessed in a bar near skye where a history teacher threatened to kick the no vote out his 16 year old daughter? I dont think for one moment you would condone that ! However many do and its pathetic.
Im sorry but you believe 1 man being abusive to his daughter is something that a lot of Scots would accept????"Did you read my post? I clearly said that im sure you wouldn't condone that. Ignore that clear evidence if you wish but its there !! But I also believe a lot of scots do condone violence in many forms. Sectarian for example. Drink abuse. Drug related v violence. Etc etc. We as scots do have a poor history of it im afraid and ignoring it doesnt mean it doesn't exist. However I am not saying most or all scots do. | |||
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" I think you will find there are numerous reasons to vote no. I just don't feel the need to jump all over others with differing opinions unlike some in both camps. What are they?" Matey I don't have enough minutes in the day to explain my personal belief to you or others. Its my reasoned belief. I accept you have your beliefs but christ the way you jump all over people when they differ is just one reason I'd vote against! | |||
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" Whilst I can't fault your enthusiasm for a yes vote and an independent Scotland I can fault the fact that you are always quoting from the SNP manifesto i.e. "Scotland's Future" (the White Paper). If you have read any of it, even just Mr Salmond's intro you'll know that the things you are certain will happen will only happen, firstly, if there is a yes vote and secondly if the SNP get elected as a majority in a Scottish Government. Both have to happen for the SNP to give what they are promising just now. If they don't get back in then whatever party or parties that do hold the power (if there is a yes vote) can then make whatever changes they want or leave things exactly as they are just now e.g. leave Trident in place! "This is it though. If we vote yes and labour haven't got their finger out and made a manifesto plan then snp will win. And what is wrong with that? They have a fairly positive plan don't they? Less money on bombs, more money on kids? | |||
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" Matey I don't have enough minutes in the day to explain my personal belief to you or others. Its my reasoned belief. I accept you have your beliefs but christ the way you jump all over people when they differ is just one reason I'd vote against!" Jump all over people? I'd someone writes something which isn't correct on a matter this important, I'm going to correct it. It's a debate. What I've done is repeatedly put my point over and argued my case and I'll continue to do so. | |||
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"Yeah exactly, I just hope the undecideds dont just vote no out of fear. If it ends up being a no vote, that will be the reason. Fear. Or is that simply an excuse in advance if things don't go the way of the yes camp ? Might surprise you to know that the no camp also have made a reasoned decision.
Absolutely some have made a reasoned decision to vote no, and I respect their decision. But there is a large percentage of people in Scotland that just dont know how they will vote.
If they still dont know by polling day but they still vote, the likeliest way they will vote is the safest way, to vote for what they have always known. That is fear. Which is only natural.
Is this the same fear/intimidation I witnessed in a bar near skye where a history teacher threatened to kick the no vote out his 16 year old daughter? I dont think for one moment you would condone that ! However many do and its pathetic.
Im sorry but you believe 1 man being abusive to his daughter is something that a lot of Scots would accept????
Did you read my post? I clearly said that im sure you wouldn't condone that. Ignore that clear evidence if you wish but its there !! But I also believe a lot of scots do condone violence in many forms. Sectarian for example. Drink abuse. Drug related v
violence. Etc etc. We as scots do have a poor history of it im afraid and ignoring it doesnt mean it doesn't exist. However I am not saying most or all scots do. "I know you didnt mean me regarding the violence, but you did insinuate lots in scotland would. Yes there are drugs in Scotland, in impoverished areas. An independant Scotland would be better suited to tackling that problem. Sectarianism? yes there is that, The SNP have done a lot to prevent that since they came into power. Violence, of course there is. All these things are in England just as much as Scotland. Shall I counter a bit of that and mention the English defence league? Am I to label all english like that? as you have just done to scotland with our problems? That the UK government helped to create might I add? Never would I say that in a million years, I have many very very nice english friends. I dont hate England. | |||
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"I guess we don't then!
If it goes ahead I hope it works - because somehow I suspect it won't be particularly easy to go back to how things are now."You have if you live in Scotland.... | |||
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" Whilst I can't fault your enthusiasm for a yes vote and an independent Scotland I can fault the fact that you are always quoting from the SNP manifesto i.e. "Scotland's Future" (the White Paper). If you have read any of it, even just Mr Salmond's intro you'll know that the things you are certain will happen will only happen, firstly, if there is a yes vote and secondly if the SNP get elected as a majority in a Scottish Government. Both have to happen for the SNP to give what they are promising just now. If they don't get back in then whatever party or parties that do hold the power (if there is a yes vote) can then make whatever changes they want or leave things exactly as they are just now e.g. leave Trident in place!
This is it though. If we vote yes and labour haven't got their finger out and made a manifesto plan then snp will win. And what is wrong with that? They have a fairly positive plan don't they? Less money on bombs, more money on kids?"You've completely missed my point, you are quoting things like they are a certainty, when they are far from it. Your also trying to use emotional blackmail to get your point across that it will all be wonderful when nobody really knows what will happen if the vote is a yes!
I'm sorry but just like "Scotland's Future" you're points are all full of "ifs and buts" nothing is certain! | |||
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" Matey I don't have enough minutes in the day to explain my personal belief to you or others. Its my reasoned belief. I accept you have your beliefs but christ the way you jump all over people when they differ is just one reason I'd vote against! Jump all over people? I'd someone writes something which isn't correct on a matter this important, I'm going to correct it. It's a debate. What I've done is repeatedly put my point over and argued my case and I'll continue to do so. " I get that. Correcting something thats wrong if it is. But when it goes further and others reasoned opinions are railroaded over I think thats disrespectful in my opinion. Saw a live debate a few weeks ago and sturgeon was embarrassing. ....rolling her eyes and sneering at others opinions. Thats what gets my goat and it happens on here too. On both sides. I accept you are a yes and wont be persuaded otherwise but respect that there are nos like that too. Peace. With or without trident | |||
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" Whilst I can't fault your enthusiasm for a yes vote and an independent Scotland I can fault the fact that you are always quoting from the SNP manifesto i.e. "Scotland's Future" (the White Paper). If you have read any of it, even just Mr Salmond's intro you'll know that the things you are certain will happen will only happen, firstly, if there is a yes vote and secondly if the SNP get elected as a majority in a Scottish Government. Both have to happen for the SNP to give what they are promising just now. If they don't get back in then whatever party or parties that do hold the power (if there is a yes vote) can then make whatever changes they want or leave things exactly as they are just now e.g. leave Trident in place!
This is it though. If we vote yes and labour haven't got their finger out and made a manifesto plan then snp will win. And what is wrong with that? They have a fairly positive plan don't they? Less money on bombs, more money on kids?
You've completely missed my point, you are quoting things like they are a certainty, when they are far from it.
Your also trying to use emotional blackmail to get your point across that it will all be wonderful when nobody really knows what will happen if the vote is a yes!
I'm sorry but just like "Scotland's Future" you're points are all full of "ifs and buts" nothing is certain! "You're not your! ooppss | |||
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" You've completely missed my point, you are quoting things like they are a certainty, when they are far from it. Your also trying to use emotional blackmail to get your point across that it will all be wonderful when nobody really knows what will happen if the vote is a yes!
I'm sorry but just like "Scotland's Future" you're points are all full of "ifs and buts" nothing is certain! "Nothing is certain in the union either though. At least independence offers hope for change. | |||
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"Yeah exactly, I just hope the undecideds dont just vote no out of fear. If it ends up being a no vote, that will be the reason. Fear. Or is that simply an excuse in advance if things don't go the way of the yes camp ? Might surprise you to know that the no camp also have made a reasoned decision.
Absolutely some have made a reasoned decision to vote no, and I respect their decision. But there is a large percentage of people in Scotland that just dont know how they will vote.
If they still dont know by polling day but they still vote, the likeliest way they will vote is the safest way, to vote for what they have always known. That is fear. Which is only natural.
Is this the same fear/intimidation I witnessed in a bar near skye where a history teacher threatened to kick the no vote out his 16 year old daughter? I dont think for one moment you would condone that ! However many do and its pathetic.
Im sorry but you believe 1 man being abusive to his daughter is something that a lot of Scots would accept????
Did you read my post? I clearly said that im sure you wouldn't condone that. Ignore that clear evidence if you wish but its there !! But I also believe a lot of scots do condone violence in many forms. Sectarian for example. Drink abuse. Drug related v
violence. Etc etc. We as scots do have a poor history of it im afraid and ignoring it doesnt mean it doesn't exist. However I am not saying most or all scots do.
I know you didnt mean me regarding the violence, but you did insinuate lots in scotland would.
Yes there are drugs in Scotland, in impoverished areas. An independant Scotland would be better suited to tackling that problem.
Sectarianism? yes there is that, The SNP have done a lot to prevent that since they came into power.
Violence, of course there is.
All these things are in England just as much as Scotland.
Shall I counter a bit of that and mention the English defence league? Am I to label all english like that? as you have just done to scotland with our problems? That the UK government helped to create might I add? Never would I say that in a million years, I have many very very nice english friends. I dont hate England.
"Again I said MANY DO. Not all or even most. I am Scottish and happily live in England but to be honest witnessed worse violent behaviour living in glasgow than I ever did in manchester. All I see is more ifs and but ifs when scotland splits to justify some thoughts. I sincerly doubt these problems would be tackled much better than they are now. | |||
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" Matey I don't have enough minutes in the day to explain my personal belief to you or others. Its my reasoned belief. I accept you have your beliefs but christ the way you jump all over people when they differ is just one reason I'd vote against! Jump all over people? I'd someone writes something which isn't correct on a matter this important, I'm going to correct it. It's a debate. What I've done is repeatedly put my point over and argued my case and I'll continue to do so. I get that. Correcting something thats wrong if it is. But when it goes further and others reasoned opinions are railroaded over I think thats disrespectful in my opinion. Saw a live debate a few weeks ago and sturgeon was embarrassing. ....rolling her eyes and sneering at others opinions. Thats what gets my goat and it happens on here too. On both sides. I accept you are a yes and wont be persuaded otherwise but respect that there are nos like that too. Peace. With or without trident "I don't know what you mean by railroading others opinions. If we debate, then that's how it goes. Sorry if I've offended you. | |||
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" You've completely missed my point, you are quoting things like they are a certainty, when they are far from it. Your also trying to use emotional blackmail to get your point across that it will all be wonderful when nobody really knows what will happen if the vote is a yes!
I'm sorry but just like "Scotland's Future" you're points are all full of "ifs and buts" nothing is certain!
Nothing is certain in the union either though. At least independence offers hope for change. "Exactly, you cross your fingers and you hope for a yes vote and hope & pray for an SNP majority in the resulting Scottish Parliament and you keep on praying & hoping the SNP live up to their promises. Politicians never lie after all! | |||
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"Yeah exactly, I just hope the undecideds dont just vote no out of fear. If it ends up being a no vote, that will be the reason. Fear. Or is that simply an excuse in advance if things don't go the way of the yes camp ? Might surprise you to know that the no camp also have made a reasoned decision.
Absolutely some have made a reasoned decision to vote no, and I respect their decision. But there is a large percentage of people in Scotland that just dont know how they will vote.
If they still dont know by polling day but they still vote, the likeliest way they will vote is the safest way, to vote for what they have always known. That is fear. Which is only natural.
Is this the same fear/intimidation I witnessed in a bar near skye where a history teacher threatened to kick the no vote out his 16 year old daughter? I dont think for one moment you would condone that ! However many do and its pathetic.
Im sorry but you believe 1 man being abusive to his daughter is something that a lot of Scots would accept????
Did you read my post? I clearly said that im sure you wouldn't condone that. Ignore that clear evidence if you wish but its there !! But I also believe a lot of scots do condone violence in many forms. Sectarian for example. Drink abuse. Drug related v
violence. Etc etc. We as scots do have a poor history of it im afraid and ignoring it doesnt mean it doesn't exist. However I am not saying most or all scots do.
I know you didnt mean me regarding the violence, but you did insinuate lots in scotland would.
Yes there are drugs in Scotland, in impoverished areas. An independant Scotland would be better suited to tackling that problem.
Sectarianism? yes there is that, The SNP have done a lot to prevent that since they came into power.
Violence, of course there is.
All these things are in England just as much as Scotland.
Shall I counter a bit of that and mention the English defence league? Am I to label all english like that? as you have just done to scotland with our problems? That the UK government helped to create might I add? Never would I say that in a million years, I have many very very nice english friends. I dont hate England.
Again I said MANY DO. Not all or even most. I am Scottish and happily live in England but to be honest witnessed worse violent behaviour living in glasgow than I ever did in manchester. All I see is more ifs and but ifs when scotland splits to justify some thoughts. I sincerly doubt these problems would be tackled much better than they are now. "Only 1 way to find out. As ive said previously in this thread and the previous 1 the Yes campaign has a lot of ideas on how to progress in an independent Scotland, but ive heard nothing from the better together campaign about ideas on how to move forward. They spend thier whole time trying to find flaws in the Yes campaign even when the Yes campaign admit fully that there are a lot of unknowns about their ideas. | |||
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"I think railroading means turning a topic about a flag into propaganda for independence - and continuing right on & on & on with no interest in debate, only your own black and white viewpoint. It's the sort of thing that turns people off political debate." Not in this case though. Start a thread about Scottish independence, expect debate. It's the biggest decision the countries ever gonna make. And I didn't go on and on, I had conversations with people. It's all there to be read if anyone doesn't believe me. Because the debate is not of interest to you or you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's propaganda. On that thread, someone came on and spewed bile about Salmond being a bigot who hated England so I countered him. | |||
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"I think railroading means turning a topic about a flag into propaganda for independence - and continuing right on & on & on with no interest in debate, only your own black and white viewpoint. It's the sort of thing that turns people off political debate. Not in this case though. Start a thread about Scottish independence, expect debate. It's the biggest decision the countries ever gonna make. And I didn't go on and on, I had conversations with people. It's all there to be read if anyone doesn't believe me. Because the debate is not of interest to you or you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's propaganda. On that thread, someone came on and spewed bile about Salmond being a bigot who hated England so I countered him. " Yep - pretty much as I was saying! You actually stated in the original discussion that you had no interest in the topic - just promoting your own views. | |||
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" Exactly, you cross your fingers and you hope for a yes vote and hope & pray for an SNP majority in the resulting Scottish Parliament and you keep on praying & hoping the SNP live up to their promises. Politicians never lie after all! "Well that's politics and it's that it anarchy. I'll go with the most positive case an if I see a debate about it and someone posts something inaccurate, I'll debate the issue with as much information as I can. | |||
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" Exactly, you cross your fingers and you hope for a yes vote and hope & pray for an SNP majority in the resulting Scottish Parliament and you keep on praying & hoping the SNP live up to their promises. Politicians never lie after all!
Well that's politics and it's that it anarchy. I'll go with the most positive case an if I see a debate about it and someone posts something inaccurate, I'll debate the issue with as much information as I can. "I've not posted any inaccuracies in this thread or the previous thread. At least you do agree with me that all you are posting about is what would happen if there is a yes vote and if the SNP get into power and if they stick to their promises i.e. all "ifs and buts" aka "Scotland's Future". You can't say it is true information though as nobody knows what will happen after the vote! | |||
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"The answers to most of the questions on here are contained in this short video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buiXDbgnc4M" The man in the video know nothing about economics at all that is very clear to see. For one Scotland will need some way of backing up there currency. There are many unanswered questions still, and no guaranty they will get into Europe. Let us not forget that the EU move very slow. It is also very arrogant to say that the Scottish have the only say in the matter. Yes they need the first say, if the say yes then there need to be a second referendum for the full UK. Let's not forget that it will have big impact on England as well. As for passports and boarders the place he was talking about are all British protectorates of one form or another. They will have to be a manned board for no other reason than TAX. | |||
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" Matey I don't have enough minutes in the day to explain my personal belief to you or others. Its my reasoned belief. I accept you have your beliefs but christ the way you jump all over people when they differ is just one reason I'd vote against! Jump all over people? I'd someone writes something which isn't correct on a matter this important, I'm going to correct it. It's a debate. What I've done is repeatedly put my point over and argued my case and I'll continue to do so. " Constantly repeating a lie doesn't make it true. It's is usually a sign of fakery. | |||
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"The answers to most of the questions on here are contained in this short video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buiXDbgnc4M The man in the video know nothing about economics at all that is very clear to see. For one Scotland will need some way of backing up there currency. There are many unanswered questions still, and no guaranty they will get into Europe. Let us not forget that the EU move very slow. It is also very arrogant to say that the Scottish have the only say in the matter. Yes they need the first say, if the say yes then there need to be a second referendum for the full UK. Let's not forget that it will have big impact on England as well. As for passports and boarders the place he was talking about are all British protectorates of one form or another. They will have to be a manned board for no other reason than TAX. " Okay dokay! | |||
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" The man in the video know nothing about economics at all that is very clear to see. For one Scotland will need some way of backing up there currency. There are many unanswered questions still, and no guaranty they will get into Europe. Let us not forget that the EU move very slow. It is also very arrogant to say that the Scottish have the only say in the matter. Yes they need the first say, if the say yes then there need to be a second referendum for the full UK. Let's not forget that it will have big impact on England as well. As for passports and boarders the place he was talking about are all British protectorates of one form or another. They will have to be a manned board for no other reason than TAX. " Clearly your knowledge of economics is also deeply flawed. Our oil gives us a great backing for whichever currency we finally choose. If we leave the pound what did England have to back the pound? London's financial sector? Arrogant to say only we get to choose our own future? Aye, right. That kind of arrogance is what brings most to the fold of independence in the first place. There is no need or requirement for a referendum amongst the remaining members of the UK to see if they want to give us permission to go our own way. | |||
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" Constantly repeating a lie doesn't make it true. It's is usually a sign of fakery." No more than constantly pooh-poohing arguments without ever once giving a contradictory fact, reason or justification. | |||
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" Constantly repeating a lie doesn't make it true. It's is usually a sign of fakery. No more than constantly pooh-poohing arguments without ever once giving a contradictory fact, reason or justification. " That must be very annoying for you. | |||
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"I have heard that there is oil in abundance off the west coast of Scotland ... could this be the reason for Westminsters " better together stance" once the no vote has been cast watch the oil and gas flow. "how long is the worlds oil and gas reserves believed to be able to last? wouldnt be too quick to reply on it ! | |||
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" Constantly repeating a lie doesn't make it true. It's is usually a sign of fakery. No more than constantly pooh-poohing arguments without ever once giving a contradictory fact, reason or justification. As an infamous socialist once stated . 1 if your going to tell a lie, tell it big and never ever stop telling it. 2 when debating a subject in public never debate with someone that knows even only some of the facts about the subject being debated. I think this quickly caught on worldwide. Lol That must be very annoying for you." | |||
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" The man in the video know nothing about economics at all that is very clear to see. For one Scotland will need some way of backing up there currency. There are many unanswered questions still, and no guaranty they will get into Europe. Let us not forget that the EU move very slow. It is also very arrogant to say that the Scottish have the only say in the matter. Yes they need the first say, if the say yes then there need to be a second referendum for the full UK. Let's not forget that it will have big impact on England as well. As for passports and boarders the place he was talking about are all British protectorates of one form or another. They will have to be a manned board for no other reason than TAX. Clearly your knowledge of economics is also deeply flawed. Our oil gives us a great backing for whichever currency we finally choose. If we leave the pound what did England have to back the pound? London's financial sector? Arrogant to say only we get to choose our own future? Aye, right. That kind of arrogance is what brings most to the fold of independence in the first place. There is no need or requirement for a referendum amongst the remaining members of the UK to see if they want to give us permission to go our own way. " Yep Arrogant. Yes there is a requirement for a referendum for all of the UK like it or not you are part of the UK. The result will affect all of the UK so tell me why should only one part of it have the only say. Yep your knowledge of economics and the resources availed to you is also deeply flawed if you think oil will always give you great backing. For more one oil and gas will run out one day and that day is not that far away. Most currency use the gold standard or a derivative of it. look on a bank note it say "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of" so you so call hard cash is in faced only a promise note. Currency is a medium of exchange at its simplest form. it is easy to devalue a currency and it can have big issues in doing to remember black Wednesday. If people do not think that you can exchange your currency for a hard commodity like gold or oil. so they can go and exchange it somewhere less for something ells then the value of this said currency will drop. Yes you have some oil as I said it will not last forever, and most of it is still in the ground. You have no gold to speak off and will need to get some when gold is at an all time nigh. Then you have bill going out V tax coming in. If you are spending in the long term morn and you get in than you pay out the value of your currency will drop. It is long game that you need to think about not the first 4 years or so but 25 years and more. | |||
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"We have been a great country because of our diversity, being less diverse and becoming parochial is not a great way forward." I agree. But I can't see a way back unless there's a landslide rejection in September. | |||
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"It's a no from me but I'd like one or two questions answered tho Why can 16 year olds vote when the law has always been 18 as that's considered adulthood and why can scots abroad vote if they're living in the states Monaco etc but scots living in England can't?????? .... " They can't. There's. residential qualification so the liked of Sean Connery, Brian Cox and Alan Cumming can't buy votes. | |||
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" The man in the video know nothing about economics at all that is very clear to see. For one Scotland will need some way of backing up there currency. There are many unanswered questions still, and no guaranty they will get into Europe. Let us not forget that the EU move very slow. It is also very arrogant to say that the Scottish have the only say in the matter. Yes they need the first say, if the say yes then there need to be a second referendum for the full UK. Let's not forget that it will have big impact on England as well. As for passports and boarders the place he was talking about are all British protectorates of one form or another. They will have to be a manned board for no other reason than TAX. Clearly your knowledge of economics is also deeply flawed. Our oil gives us a great backing for whichever currency we finally choose. If we leave the pound what did England have to back the pound? London's financial sector? Arrogant to say only we get to choose our own future? Aye, right. That kind of arrogance is what brings most to the fold of independence in the first place. There is no need or requirement for a referendum amongst the remaining members of the UK to see if they want to give us permission to go our own way. Yep Arrogant. Yes there is a requirement for a referendum for all of the UK like it or not you are part of the UK. The result will affect all of the UK so tell me why should only one part of it have the only say. Yep your knowledge of economics and the resources availed to you is also deeply flawed if you think oil will always give you great backing. For more one oil and gas will run out one day and that day is not that far away. Most currency use the gold standard or a derivative of it. look on a bank note it say "I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of" so you so call hard cash is in faced only a promise note. Currency is a medium of exchange at its simplest form. it is easy to devalue a currency and it can have big issues in doing to remember black Wednesday. If people do not think that you can exchange your currency for a hard commodity like gold or oil. so they can go and exchange it somewhere less for something ells then the value of this said currency will drop. Yes you have some oil as I said it will not last forever, and most of it is still in the ground. You have no gold to speak off and will need to get some when gold is at an all time nigh. Then you have bill going out V tax coming in. If you are spending in the long term morn and you get in than you pay out the value of your currency will drop. It is long game that you need to think about not the first 4 years or so but 25 years and more. " The next 300 years more like. That's why separation won't happen. | |||
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"It's a no from me but I'd like one or two questions answered tho Why can 16 year olds vote when the law has always been 18 as that's considered adulthood and why can scots abroad vote if they're living in the states Monaco etc but scots living in England can't?????? My own personal view is that the snp are clutching at straws trying to get the vote of people who shouldn't really be voting in order to push thru this ideal of theirs" Can scots in the armed forces that are posted outside Scotland vote ? | |||
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"But haven't the Scottish been treated like poor cousins for the best part of several hundred years? I miss your point Onny." This isn't a 'let's try it for a few years and when it all goes tits up we can go back to Sept 17th 2014'. Fuck this up, as a yes vote will, and we're up shit creek for another 300 years. | |||
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"It's a no from me but I'd like one or two questions answered tho Why can 16 year olds vote when the law has always been 18 as that's considered adulthood and why can scots abroad vote if they're living in the states Monaco etc but scots living in England can't?????? My own personal view is that the snp are clutching at straws trying to get the vote of people who shouldn't really be voting in order to push thru this ideal of theirs Can scots in the armed forces that are posted outside Scotland vote ? " So long as you they usually eligible to vote in Scotland, members of HMAF can vote. Postal ballots will operate as normal. | |||
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"I think that all Scots & Expats worldwide should also be allowed to vote!!" Those who love Scotland soooooo much they can't bear to live here? | |||
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"It's a no from me but I'd like one or two questions answered tho Why can 16 year olds vote when the law has always been 18 as that's considered adulthood and why can scots abroad vote if they're living in the states Monaco etc but scots living in England can't?????? My own personal view is that the snp are clutching at straws trying to get the vote of people who shouldn't really be voting in order to push thru this ideal of theirs Can scots in the armed forces that are posted outside Scotland vote ? So long as you they usually eligible to vote in Scotland, members of HMAF can vote. Postal ballots will operate as normal." Thank you | |||
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"I have heard that there is oil in abundance off the west coast of Scotland ... could this be the reason for Westminsters " better together stance" once the no vote has been cast watch the oil and gas flow. "Theres oil in my flat. Well my last meet said I was pretty damn slick..... | |||
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"I think that all Scots & Expats worldwide should also be allowed to vote!! Those who love Scotland soooooo much they can't bear to live here?" Because of yesteryear, maybe??? I would hazard a guess that most Scots who have set up residence overseas - usually for economic reasons - would rejoice at Scottish independence. Just my opinion, that's all | |||
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"I think that all Scots & Expats worldwide should also be allowed to vote!! Those who love Scotland soooooo much they can't bear to live here? Because of yesteryear, maybe??? I would hazard a guess that most Scots who have set up residence overseas - usually for economic reasons - would rejoice at Scottish independence. Just my opinion, that's all" When you say economic reasons, do you mean tax a avoidance? | |||
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"Typed two big rants and deleted them basically...to you anti English idiots that say things like "we are attached to a country with a history of invading other country (which most countries have done at some point)" You give the Scottish Nationalists that I know well and call friends a bad name, and I wont sully them by putting you beside them, you want independance go for it, you may just find its not all its cracked upto be." Or find that it's the best thing you ever done - & could/should have done sooner!!! Go for it!!! | |||
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"what types?" Too big for my phone to quote - but I was referring to Onny, sorry. | |||
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"Typed two big rants and deleted them basically...to you anti English idiots that say things like "we are attached to a country with a history of invading other country (which most countries have done at some point)" You give the Scottish Nationalists that I know well and call friends a bad name, and I wont sully them by putting you beside them, you want independance go for it, you may just find its not all its cracked upto be. Or find that it's the best thing you ever done - & could/should have done sooner!!! Go for it!!!" oh dont misunderstand me it COULD be the best thing they have done but then it could also be a very BAD idea, my anger isnt directed at those that want independance but at those that slag off the English, that abuse us and say we are so evil and we invaded countries etc etc etc etc, clans fought clans over land theres no difference but because they are Scottish its acceptable to make us English out to be evil. I am proud of being English AND British I have a strong national identity but and its not brought about by other members of the union showing theres its brought about because of pride | |||
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"Read Neil Oliver's book about the history of Scotland and it is evident that the biggest problem Scotland ever had was an allegiance to France that never got supported! Being British has been a great thing for all of us, I'm not English or Scottish - I'm British and it is a great thing to be. Being able to be Scottish as well is brilliant, I can be me, I can recognise being Cornish, Welsh, East Anglian and also Orkadian is as valuable. If Scottish independence, then why not Gaelic Independence nect... "Gaelic's not a place and if its the language you mean, there are more Gaelic speakers in the West End of Glasgow than in the Western Isles. A demand for independence is more likely to come from Orkney and Shetland - neither of which think of themselves as Scottish on the first place. | |||
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"After the comment that scots left scotland because they don't love it how misunderstood is that? .......... " I didn't say they left because they didn't love Scotland, I questioned why, now that they can afford to live anywhere they choose, they don't return to Scotland but wish to have a say it our country's future. You need only read the fiasco re Alan Cumming buying a £80,000 flat on Edinbugh (cos he thought he'd get a vote) and is now selling it cos he can't get a vote. He's bought a £/$ 3,000,000 home in New York. | |||
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"Why don't we just leave it like it is? "Salmond wants to be King. | |||
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""ONE of the world’s most famous hotels has provoked outrage after valuing the Scottish pound lower than an English one. The exchange rate board at the five-star Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York was yesterday advertising $1.3387 for Scottish banknotes compared to $1.3429 for English currency." Expect more like this." But that's NOW, don't you see? | |||
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""ONE of the world’s most famous hotels has provoked outrage after valuing the Scottish pound lower than an English one. The exchange rate board at the five-star Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York was yesterday advertising $1.3387 for Scottish banknotes compared to $1.3429 for English currency." Expect more like this. But that's NOW, don't you see?" No, that's uncertainty. | |||
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"Yes, but the uncertainty is now! ............. " That's right. Uncertainty before a decision has been taken. And if (when?) the currency markets decide the wrong decision has been taken? What then? A quick 'phone call to an elderly woman in Threadneedle Street? How long before a return to the days of London cabbies giving 95p to a Scottish bank pound? | |||
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"Yes, but the uncertainty is now! What about the wave of foreign investment that would follow? What about the tourism potential? What about the tens of millions of people in America or around the world with Scottish heritage - how many would love to invest in Scotland? The bigger picture looks like a YES vote to me!!! But hey, just an opinion of a bloody foreigner who spent a lot of time on the outside looking in." So why are they not investing right now then? Oh yes that right no one got nay money to invest. also why would not been part of the UK make tourism any better than it is now? | |||
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"Yes, but the uncertainty is now! ............. That's right. Uncertainty before a decision has been taken. And if (when?) the currency markets decide the wrong decision has been taken? What then? A quick 'phone call to an elderly woman in Threadneedle Street? How long before a return to the days of London cabbies giving 95p to a Scottish bank pound?" Seems the money markets don't like even the possibility of separation. | |||
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" If Scotland gains independence, will there be : a) more sunshine b) less midges c) more public spots for the Old Course?" Free heavy beer and pie suppers in the sky. | |||
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"I have heard that there is oil in abundance off the west coast of Scotland ... could this be the reason for Westminsters " better together stance" once the no vote has been cast watch the oil and gas flow.
how long is the worlds oil and gas reserves believed to be able to last? wouldnt be too quick to reply on it !"Good point, and that's what make s the west coast oil so valuable. Don't think I will see oil run out... | |||
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"Before the vote, someone needs to define "independence" because it's not having a seat on the board of a foreign bank or using their currency. Or could it be that little alec salmond isn't as confident of Scotland's independent economic success as he makes out? " Or he doesn't care. All he wants is a crown. Today's revelations about infrastructure contracts having to be paid in Sterling show how the rest of the world feels about the risks of separation. | |||
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" their currency. " Here is where you are going wrong. | |||
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" The only question that matters is " Who owns the oil offshore" If there wasn't no oil industry I don't think Scotland getting independence would be an issue" An equally interesting question might be 'who owns Scotland's whisky industry?' After yesterday, the answer is probably Suntory. | |||
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" Is there any substance in the belief that should Scotland "gain" independence then the Orkneys and Shetlands will then seek a referendum on independence from Scotland and rejoin the UK? " There's mention of this on another thread. Orkney, and particularly Shetland, don't think of themselves as Scottish at all but I reckon a Northern Isles referendum would come out in favour of rejoining Norway. It can't have been much fun spending all these centuries as a dowry. | |||
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"Its really funny, all these little (Salmond and the SNP et al) people with lots of plans to build their little empires. I would just like to point out the elephant in the room that no one seem to want to acknolege. Just like in political parties as you reduce the size of the membership you increase the the radical extremism of the group. And the more extreme the group the less tolerant, more aggressive and unstable it becomes. The smaller the country the less economic muscle it has an the more susceptible it becomes to manipulation by the big multinational conglomerates. Here are a few examples: Yugoslavia, Sudan or the former Soviet Union. All were led into their brave new world by a flag waving patriot who claimed that their wealth was there for the taking back from those that had held them back for...(you get the picture), but in reality what they got was instability and loss of wealth. Now considering that Walmart (a US giant) has already said that they will exploit Scottish independence as have a number of other multi nationals I have some questions for the Scotts: Why do you think that the Scotlands fate will be any different to any of the other small breakaway countries that have chosen independence (isolation) over inclusion in a larger country? Why do you think that the more stable little countries in eastern Europe are queuing up to join the EU and looking for closer and closer union? Do you really believe that Alex Salmond and the SNP have your best interests at heart? And finally why when there is overwhelming evidence that the way to reduce extremism and increase prosperity is to become bigger are so many of you convinced that you will be better off being smaller? Are you really so arrogant that you believe you will be the exception to the rule? Or is it that so many of you are so buried a nationalistic myth born out of battles between tyrants hundreds of years ago that you will follow another potential tyrant to your doom in order to damage an enemy that has not existed since the 18th century? " The insistance on referring to battles of years gone by is doing the debate no favours at all I and I urge everyone here to move on from this. I can assure you that the only people referring to 1314 etc the "no" supporters who have little else to contribute. As I've already stated, the debate up here has moved on and if you'd like to join in, you really need to get all this nonsense out of your head. Those nations you refer to; Sudan, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union. Have you any idea how patrionising you sound? Have you been to Lithuania? Latvia? Croatia? Do you think for a second they pine for the good old days? Or do you know better than them? Yes look at all those small independent countries that are struggling so much! Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Luxmeburg, Sweden - all richer countries than the UK. 'Big economic muscle' which the no camp are so fascinated by just breeds corruption and inequality as is evident in the UK today. The small independent nation of Norway just made all it's inhabitants crown millionaires. Where is the UK's oil fund? Do you honestly think the UK's mismanagement of billions of pounds is a good reflection of "big" countries? You just carry on mocking and being blissfully ignorant of the facts. Scotland is moving on. If you want a serious debate, drop the extremist rhetoric. It's cringeworthy. | |||
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"How do you feel about the Spanish PM wanting an independent Scotland having to re apply to be part of EU? Also not having the pound but the Euro? He isn't speaking to us but to catalonia. There is no chance anyone will block Scotland's continuating membership of the eu as it's harms their own economy, Spain included as the have many fisherman in the North Sea at the moment. The euro isn't an option and isn't being discussed by any of the groups up here. We'll keep the pound. Anyone suggesting we can't use it forgets that we own the Bank of England and that it sets interest rates independently of government. The no camp may shout about what if you can't use the pound etc etc but the reality is that the day after a yes vote they will want us to keep the pound. It's in the uk's interests. " "Scotland's continuing membership" Scotland is not a member of the EU. Neither is England, Wales or northern Ireland. Great Britain, per se, is the member. | |||
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" "Scotland's continuing membership" Scotland is not a member of the EU. Neither is England, Wales or northern Ireland. Great Britain, per se, is the member. " The biggest threat to our eu membership is the upcoming in/out referendum on the issue. Can you imagine Scotland voting to stay in but being dragged out anyway because our 4 million votes were obliterated by votes down south? | |||
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"Its really funny, all these little (Salmond and the SNP et al) people with lots of plans to build their little empires. I would just like to point out the elephant in the room that no one seem to want to acknolege. Just like in political parties as you reduce the size of the membership you increase the the radical extremism of the group. And the more extreme the group the less tolerant, more aggressive and unstable it becomes. The smaller the country the less economic muscle it has an the more susceptible it becomes to manipulation by the big multinational conglomerates. Here are a few examples: Yugoslavia, Sudan or the former Soviet Union. All were led into their brave new world by a flag waving patriot who claimed that their wealth was there for the taking back from those that had held them back for...(you get the picture), but in reality what they got was instability and loss of wealth. Now considering that Walmart (a US giant) has already said that they will exploit Scottish independence as have a number of other multi nationals I have some questions for the Scotts: Why do you think that the Scotlands fate will be any different to any of the other small breakaway countries that have chosen independence (isolation) over inclusion in a larger country? Why do you think that the more stable little countries in eastern Europe are queuing up to join the EU and looking for closer and closer union? Do you really believe that Alex Salmond and the SNP have your best interests at heart? And finally why when there is overwhelming evidence that the way to reduce extremism and increase prosperity is to become bigger are so many of you convinced that you will be better off being smaller? Are you really so arrogant that you believe you will be the exception to the rule? Or is it that so many of you are so buried a nationalistic myth born out of battles between tyrants hundreds of years ago that you will follow another potential tyrant to your doom in order to damage an enemy that has not existed since the 18th century? The insistance on referring to battles of years gone by is doing the debate no favours at all I and I urge everyone here to move on from this. I can assure you that the only people referring to 1314 etc the "no" supporters who have little else to contribute. As I've already stated, the debate up here has moved on and if you'd like to join in, you really need to get all this nonsense out of your head. Those nations you refer to; Sudan, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union. Have you any idea how patrionising you sound? Have you been to Lithuania? Latvia? Croatia? Do you think for a second they pine for the good old days? Or do you know better than them? Yes look at all those small independent countries that are struggling so much! Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Luxmeburg, Sweden - all richer countries than the UK. 'Big economic muscle' which the no camp are so fascinated by just breeds corruption and inequality as is evident in the UK today. The small independent nation of Norway just made all it's inhabitants crown millionaires. Where is the UK's oil fund? Do you honestly think the UK's mismanagement of billions of pounds is a good reflection of "big" countries? You just carry on mocking and being blissfully ignorant of the facts. Scotland is moving on. If you want a serious debate, drop the extremist rhetoric. It's cringeworthy." House! | |||
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"Its really funny, all these little (Salmond and the SNP et al) people with lots of plans to build their little empires. I would just like to point out the elephant in the room that no one seem to want to acknolege. Just like in political parties as you reduce the size of the membership you increase the the radical extremism of the group. And the more extreme the group the less tolerant, more aggressive and unstable it becomes. The smaller the country the less economic muscle it has an the more susceptible it becomes to manipulation by the big multinational conglomerates. Here are a few examples: Yugoslavia, Sudan or the former Soviet Union. All were led into their brave new world by a flag waving patriot who claimed that their wealth was there for the taking back from those that had held them back for...(you get the picture), but in reality what they got was instability and loss of wealth. Now considering that Walmart (a US giant) has already said that they will exploit Scottish independence as have a number of other multi nationals I have some questions for the Scotts: Why do you think that the Scotlands fate will be any different to any of the other small breakaway countries that have chosen independence (isolation) over inclusion in a larger country? Why do you think that the more stable little countries in eastern Europe are queuing up to join the EU and looking for closer and closer union? Do you really believe that Alex Salmond and the SNP have your best interests at heart? And finally why when there is overwhelming evidence that the way to reduce extremism and increase prosperity is to become bigger are so many of you convinced that you will be better off being smaller? Are you really so arrogant that you believe you will be the exception to the rule? Or is it that so many of you are so buried a nationalistic myth born out of battles between tyrants hundreds of years ago that you will follow another potential tyrant to your doom in order to damage an enemy that has not existed since the 18th century? The insistance on referring to battles of years gone by is doing the debate no favours at all I and I urge everyone here to move on from this. I can assure you that the only people referring to 1314 etc the "no" supporters who have little else to contribute. As I've already stated, the debate up here has moved on and if you'd like to join in, you really need to get all this nonsense out of your head. Those nations you refer to; Sudan, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union. Have you any idea how patrionising you sound? Have you been to Lithuania? Latvia? Croatia? Do you think for a second they pine for the good old days? Or do you know better than them? Yes look at all those small independent countries that are struggling so much! Ireland, Iceland, Norway, Luxmeburg, Sweden - all richer countries than the UK. 'Big economic muscle' which the no camp are so fascinated by just breeds corruption and inequality as is evident in the UK today. The small independent nation of Norway just made all it's inhabitants crown millionaires. Where is the UK's oil fund? Do you honestly think the UK's mismanagement of billions of pounds is a good reflection of "big" countries? You just carry on mocking and being blissfully ignorant of the facts. Scotland is moving on. If you want a serious debate, drop the extremist rhetoric. It's cringeworthy." My argument is cringe worthy??? Really... Lets deal with your comment about the countries I mentioned. Firstly Ireland (bailed out by EU and UK) joined the EU at the same time as us and the Netherlands were a founding member. As for Iceland if I am not mistaken they are effectively bankrupt and being run by the world bank (not richer than the UK at all). I also notice that you listed the countries of the former Soviet Union that as soon as they got the opportunity also joining the EU and are in the vanguard of the movement for further integration. Why didn't you mention any of countries of the former USSR that have followed a path of genuine independence? Is it because they are all either dictatorships or unstable and in serious trouble? I will grant that the Scandinavian nations buck the rules and prove it is possible to survive and prosper without being big, but they do have the highest cost of living in Europe. So maybe they are not such a good examples to quote to prove the value of being a small but independent nation. As for your comments about corruption again you are wrong, size has nothing to do with corruption. There is a very old and true saying: "Power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely." And just to be clear the economic powerhouse of Europe and the country that has best weathered the financial collapse of 2008/9 is the largest country in Europe (Germany). But as you say, you just carry on mocking and being blissfully ignorant of the facts. And just to be clear I am a euro-file, I would happily see a Federal Europe with a single currency tomorrow. | |||
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"As for Iceland if I am not mistaken they are effectively bankrupt and being run by the world bank (not richer than the UK at all). " But you are mistaken and yes they are richer than the uk. As are Ireland who, along with Iceland are recovering far quicker than the UK. So explain where the oil money is?What have the government done with the billions that made Norway rich? Are you satisfied living in a country where we have nuclear weapons AND food banks? House of Lords AND huge numbers of child poverty? Scotland invariably performs better financially than the rest of the uk. I, and thousands of others, feel that we can take some of that money we make, and rather than give it to Westminster, spend it in Scotland and focus all our efforts on Scotland. And you are calling us extremists? | |||
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"But you are mistaken and yes they are richer than the uk. As are Ireland who, along with Iceland are recovering far quicker than the UK. So explain where the oil money is?What have the government done with the billions that made Norway rich? Are you satisfied living in a country where we have nuclear weapons AND food banks? House of Lords AND huge numbers of child poverty? Scotland invariably performs better financially than the rest of the uk. I, and thousands of others, feel that we can take some of that money we make, and rather than give it to Westminster, spend it in Scotland and focus all our efforts on Scotland. And you are calling us extremists? " I'll have to ring my cousins in Dublin tonight and see if they would agree with you. As for Iceland, according to the OECD 2013 survey their gross debt is 120+% of GDP dropping by 2% in 2014. The UK gross debt is 84% and dropping by 1.3%. Now Ill accept that 2% is about 50% bigger than 1.3% but I would not exchange an 84% of GDP debt for a 120% of GDP debt! So again I respectfully say Iceland is not the economic miracle you portray it as. You keep mentioning oil revenue and asking where it has all gone. I would suggest into infrastructure and running the country. You also ask am I happy living in a country with nuclear weapons, food banks, child poverty and The House of Lords? Firstly how are they linked? They have nothing to do with one another and nothing to do with Scottish independence. But to answer your questions 1 at a time. I am very happy with nuclear weapons as would you be if you understood exactly how good they are. I am not happy with with food banks or any type of poverty and believe the Tories and their economic beliefs are a force for evil. I am all in favor of a 2 chamber parliament and believe that an ellected primary legislative chamber with a non elected amending second chamber is the best system. So yes I am all in favor of the House of Lords and dont want to see it change to another bunch of elected politicians pandering to cameras and the press and looking for soundbites to get reelected. As for your last point about Scotland outperforming the rest of the UK, I think that again you may be mistaken and that when you strip out EU inward development investment and its spin offs from your economic performance figures that they may not look so healthy. I further believe that you are taking for granted you continued membership of the EU when plainly that is not the case. | |||
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" I'll have to ring my cousins in Dublin tonight and see if they would agree with you. As for Iceland, according to the OECD 2013 survey their gross debt is 120+% of GDP dropping by 2% in 2014. The UK gross debt is 84% and dropping by 1.3%. Now Ill accept that 2% is about 50% bigger than 1.3% but I would not exchange an 84% of GDP debt for a 120% of GDP debt! So again I respectfully say Iceland is not the economic miracle you portray it as. You keep mentioning oil revenue and asking where it has all gone. I would suggest into infrastructure and running the country. You also ask am I happy living in a country with nuclear weapons, food banks, child poverty and The House of Lords? Firstly how are they linked? They have nothing to do with one another and nothing to do with Scottish independence. But to answer your questions 1 at a time. I am very happy with nuclear weapons as would you be if you understood exactly how good they are. I am not happy with with food banks or any type of poverty and believe the Tories and their economic beliefs are a force for evil. I am all in favor of a 2 chamber parliament and believe that an ellected primary legislative chamber with a non elected amending second chamber is the best system. So yes I am all in favor of the House of Lords and dont want to see it change to another bunch of elected politicians pandering to cameras and the press and looking for soundbites to get reelected. As for your last point about Scotland outperforming the rest of the UK, I think that again you may be mistaken and that when you strip out EU inward development investment and its spin offs from your economic performance figures that they may not look so healthy. I further believe that you are taking for granted you continued membership of the EU when plainly that is not the case." Ok. Firstly thanks for engaging with some detailed reasoning. Certain others take note! I never stated Iceland was an economic miracle, I said that were a richer country than the UK. According to the OECD 2011 countries by GDP obviously Luxembourg and Norway are top but Iceland is 11th or 12th with the UK at 16th. My point is that a smaller economy can greater affect changes to fix problems when they arise. The rest of the top ten, with the exception of a few, are small independent countries. Bigger isn't always better! (I don't often say that). Oil revenue - so it's been spent. If I won the lottery and I just spent it all, when the money is gone, it's gone an I'm no better off. However Norway owns a quarter of Regent street in London as well as serious real estate in Paris. The money will always roll in for them! Half a trillion in an oil fund! The UK debt is 20 grand a head!!! Now that is serious mismanagement. Nuclear weapons - you say I'd like them if I knew how good they are? That's a real statement. I can assure you no matter how man people they could dissolve or how quickly they could do it, I will never support owning WMD. Especially not when people is this country are struggling. Btw that's how the two points are linked, we spend money on the wrong things. Food banks and the evil Tories - I've made this point before and it's one of the most important. Scotland generally thinks the Tories are very evil. They are hated ere. But they have been in power for over half my life! We have one Tory mp out of a possible 59 yet we also have a Tory prime minister! House of Lords - again we will never agree here. They are unelected, earning 300 a day just for showing up, and the number of them who got there by donating to the right people is disgraceful. It's ancient and outdated. I don't think I am taking eu membership for granted, I am saying that all indications are that we would be able to continue. For anyone to oppose would be nose cutting for face spiting. It's not impossible but it's highly unlikely in my opinion. There is an in/out referendum on this and, as with general elections, the Scots will just have to take what we are given. I see that as a bigger risk to eu membership and I'm surprised you can't see that. | |||
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"According to the OECD 2011 countries by GDP obviously Luxembourg and Norway are top but Iceland is 11th or 12th with the UK at 16th. " I have removed a lot of your last post because we agree about Tories. The pros and cons of nuclear weapons and WMD's is for another thread and is not pertinent to to the debate about Scotlands secession from the United Kingdom. And the point in having an unelected second chamber is that it is free from the pressures of having to pander to "political supporters"(those who supply the money that gets politicians elected) or the short term whims of a fickle electorate and can therefore act in the interests of the country no matter how unpopular that may be. Now as for the bit I left, again I have to contradict you. None of those countries are richer than us. If they were they would be members of the G20(that's the top 20 world economies) there are 4 EU countries in the G20, France, Germany, Italy and the UK. the worlds largest economy being the USA with China a rapidly catching second. (However if the EU genuinely united we would be the second largest economy and would also be catching the US. Something I believe would be in our interest.) The bottom line is I am for integration and expansion not division and contraction. | |||
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"According to the OECD 2011 countries by GDP obviously Luxembourg and Norway are top but Iceland is 11th or 12th with the UK at 16th. I have removed a lot of your last post because we agree about Tories. The pros and cons of nuclear weapons and WMD's is for another thread and is not pertinent to to the debate about Scotlands secession from the United Kingdom. And the point in having an unelected second chamber is that it is free from the pressures of having to pander to "political supporters"(those who supply the money that gets politicians elected) or the short term whims of a fickle electorate and can therefore act in the interests of the country no matter how unpopular that may be. Now as for the bit I left, again I have to contradict you. None of those countries are richer than us. If they were they would be members of the G20(that's the top 20 world economies) there are 4 EU countries in the G20, France, Germany, Italy and the UK. the worlds largest economy being the USA with China a rapidly catching second. (However if the EU genuinely united we would be the second largest economy and would also be catching the US. Something I believe would be in our interest.) The bottom line is I am for integration and expansion not division and contraction. " I'm talking about rich countries not size of economy. Of course china is the biggest. Of course the USA is huge. But divide by population to get a real figure of how it affects the standard of living. Scotland, as independent, lies in eighth and the uk would be 16th. If you are in favour if integration, why not join forces with a nearby country like France? Huge economy, right? If that's better then let's merge! Better together, no? Big army. Big, huge, powerful, massive, etc etc. it's not quite right is it? There is a point where you have to say - we are too different, we want different things. You are in favour of integration but you are failing to appreciate that Scotland is a very different place to England and it is never more clearly demonstrated than by voting patterns. We don't do the ukip thing here. Tories are seen as the arch enemy. Yet Cameron is the pm and farage is on our bbc funded question time more than anyone else in recent years. Why is that? Because we want different things and independence is the way to get them. To grow up and take responsibility for ourselves and make our own way. The economic argument is won, that's clear. So what is left, nostalgia? Small, independent countries do very well, especially in our part of the world. Independence brings real democracy back and allows our children to grow up in a country where they don't have an inbuilt inferiority complex which is so evident living here (defeatist, negative, 'we're Scotland, we'll fuck it all up'). We have a real chance to change to the political landscape in Scotland and the uk and not a change that lasts 4 years until the baddies get back in. Real change. Every party fighting only for Scotland as opposed to toeing the company line (see Scottish labour) and every penny raised, spent here. No animosity to our neighbours, no ill feeling, just fairness. Oh and nuclear weapons are pertinent because Scotland overwhelmingly opposes them yet they are stationed in our waters. We can do nothing about this. Defence budget is 30 or 40 billion only about 1.5 of which is spent in Scotland. We don't need such a budget for that. It's an utter waste. | |||
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"As for Iceland if I am not mistaken they are effectively bankrupt and being run by the world bank (not richer than the UK at all). But you are mistaken and yes they are richer than the uk. As are Ireland who, along with Iceland are recovering far quicker than the UK. So explain where the oil money is?What have the government done with the billions that made Norway rich? Are you satisfied living in a country where we have nuclear weapons AND food banks? House of Lords AND huge numbers of child poverty? Scotland invariably performs better financially than the rest of the uk. I, and thousands of others, feel that we can take some of that money we make, and rather than give it to Westminster, spend it in Scotland and focus all our efforts on Scotland. And you are calling us extremists? " Self-delusionists might be more accurate. I don't mind people kidding themselves on, it's when they try to fool other people I get upset. | |||
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" or the short term whims of a fickle electorate and can therefore act in the interests of the country no matter how unpopular that may be. " Sorry, having just reread your post about the House of Lords, I can't let this slide. Do you realise how utterly wrong this sounds? They are unelected and there by appointment (for life) and you say they are a good thing because they'll be there to make decisions for us when us stupid voters get it wrong? | |||
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" or the short term whims of a fickle electorate and can therefore act in the interests of the country no matter how unpopular that may be. Sorry, having just reread your post about the House of Lords, I can't let this slide. Do you realise how utterly wrong this sounds? They are unelected and there by appointment (for life) and you say they are a good thing because they'll be there to make decisions for us when us stupid voters get it wrong?" I, too, have little time for the House of Lords but only last night (Weds) the government (the real one) was defeated in a crucial House of Lords vote on the gagging law. A key change which took out one of the worst parts of the bill was voted through. | |||
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"(1)I'm talking about rich countries not size of economy. Of course china is the biggest. Of course the USA is huge. But divide by population to get a real figure of how it affects the standard of living. Scotland, as independent, lies in eighth and the uk would be 16th. (2)If you are in favour if integration, why not join forces with a nearby country like France? Huge economy, right? If that's better then let's merge! Better together, no? Big army. Big, huge, powerful, massive, etc etc. it's not quite right is it? There is a point where you have to say - we are too different, we want different things. (3)You are in favour of integration but you are failing to appreciate that Scotland is a very different place to England and it is never more clearly demonstrated than by voting patterns. We don't do the ukip thing here. Tories are seen as the arch enemy. Yet Cameron is the pm and farage is on our bbc funded question time more than anyone else in recent years. Why is that? Because we want different things and independence is the way to get them. To grow up and take responsibility for ourselves and make our own way. The economic argument is won, that's clear. So what is left, nostalgia? Small, independent countries do very well, especially in our part of the world. Independence brings real democracy back and allows our children to grow up in a country where they don't have an inbuilt inferiority complex which is so evident living here (defeatist, negative, 'we're Scotland, we'll fuck it all up'). (4)We have a real chance to change to the political landscape in Scotland and the uk and not a change that lasts 4 years until the baddies get back in. Real change. Every party fighting only for Scotland as opposed to toeing the company line (see Scottish labour) and every penny raised, spent here. (5)No animosity to our neighbours, no ill feeling, just fairness. Oh and nuclear weapons are pertinent because Scotland overwhelmingly opposes them yet they are stationed in our waters. We can do nothing about this. Defence budget is 30 or 40 billion only about 1.5 of which is spent in Scotland. We don't need such a budget for that. It's an utter waste. " I have numbered your broad points to make it easier to reply: 1)Really, so why didn't you mention the really rich countries, the ones that could buy and sell the countries you are harping on about without breaking sweat... You know the ones, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Monaco or any of the other tax havens round the world. Is it because you are so prejudiced against England that you refuse to see your arguments are full of holes and that you will do anything to damage England no matter the cost to the rest of the UK or yourself? 2) I thought I made it quite plain, I would join with Europe tomorrow! I believe it is in our long term interests to become a United Europe. How many ways do I have to say that for you to understand? Again I have to say I am getting the distinct impression that you refuse to see anything that does not agree with your idea of what I should be saying. I also get the impression that you are bravely wrapping your self in the Saltire and singing Flower of Scotland while swinging from the goalposts at Wembley. 3)Right so you are different, I get that. You dont like having to accept that you are only a small part of a whole and like any spoiled child you are throwing a paddy because you want your own way... OK, fair enough, if that is what you want so be it. But you better realize that actions have consequences and that just like any dumped partner we in the rest of the UK will not be happy. 4)Just to be absolutely clear will your attitude be the same when the inhabitants of the Hebrides and Orkneys decide that they dont like being subservient to the population of the central belt will you be willing to see a return of an independent Lord of the Isles? I think you should be aware that there will be many (me for 1) in the rest of the UK who will be demanding that OUR government force Scotland be made to apply for membership of the EU just like any other country prove their economic stability and on entry join the Euro. After all Scotland is not a member of the EU, the UK is. If you leave the UK you leave the EU! And finally as you are fuming that an English man (I'm not by the way, I'm British) is saying this remember that the Spanish president has already said it so no matter how much you deny that you are being sent a very plain message, its there! Ignore it at your peril. | |||
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" or the short term whims of a fickle electorate and can therefore act in the interests of the country no matter how unpopular that may be. Sorry, having just reread your post about the House of Lords, I can't let this slide. Do you realise how utterly wrong this sounds? They are unelected and there by appointment (for life) and you say they are a good thing because they'll be there to make decisions for us when us stupid voters get it wrong? I, too, have little time for the House of Lords but only last night (Weds) the government (the real one) was defeated in a crucial House of Lords vote on the gagging law. A key change which took out one of the worst parts of the bill was voted through." Lots of people dislike the house of Lords. Every time it blocks the worst excesses of the government of the day the Commons demand Lords reform. And every time the reforms are designed to reduce the Lords ability to change or block bad law. The simple fact is that from once a person has been elevated to the peerage and has taken a seat in the Lords they can not be removed and this gives the Lords great freedom to vote their conscience and the countries interests rather that the party line! That is something that is worth preserving. | |||
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" I have numbered your broad points to make it easier to reply: 1)Really, so why didn't you mention the really rich countries, the ones that could buy and sell the countries you are harping on about without breaking sweat... You know the ones, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Monaco or any of the other tax havens round the world. Is it because you are so prejudiced against England that you refuse to see your arguments are full of holes and that you will do anything to damage England no matter the cost to the rest of the UK or yourself? 2) I thought I made it quite plain, I would join with Europe tomorrow! I believe it is in our long term interests to become a United Europe. How many ways do I have to say that for you to understand? Again I have to say I am getting the distinct impression that you refuse to see anything that does not agree with your idea of what I should be saying. I also get the impression that you are bravely wrapping your self in the Saltire and singing Flower of Scotland while swinging from the goalposts at Wembley. 3)Right so you are different, I get that. You dont like having to accept that you are only a small part of a whole and like any spoiled child you are throwing a paddy because you want your own way... OK, fair enough, if that is what you want so be it. But you better realize that actions have consequences and that just like any dumped partner we in the rest of the UK will not be happy. 4)Just to be absolutely clear will your attitude be the same when the inhabitants of the Hebrides and Orkneys decide that they dont like being subservient to the population of the central belt will you be willing to see a return of an independent Lord of the Isles? I think you should be aware that there will be many (me for 1) in the rest of the UK who will be demanding that OUR government force Scotland be made to apply for membership of the EU just like any other country prove their economic stability and on entry join the Euro. After all Scotland is not a member of the EU, the UK is. If you leave the UK you leave the EU! And finally as you are fuming that an English man (I'm not by the way, I'm British) is saying this remember that the Spanish president has already said it so no matter how much you deny that you are being sent a very plain message, its there! Ignore it at your peril." 1. I was referring to countries in the OECD top ten richest list by GDP. I wasn't selectively choosing nations. It's that simple. 2. You've kinda jumped down my throat here. I had no idea you wished to abandon your country as join one big country of Europe. Good luck with that by the way. (Ps the reference to flower of Scotland etc really reduced credibility from your debate. There's no need for it. As I've said a few times, we are having an amazing grown up debate up here. You're welcome to join but drop the baggage. It doesn't help. 3. I'd love to have witness you giving this chat to some of the other countries that have sought independence from the UK. You'd sound very patronising indeed saying "you are just a small part of a whole, you'll regret this!" 4. So you will demand UK veto Scotland's membership? Why? Spite? Really? It's an act that will cost your country money in trade. Rajput was addressing Catalonia when he made those comments. Again, to veto us would result in a significant drop in Spanish fisheries market. It's counter productive. | |||
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" That is something that is worth preserving." That is something the Scottish electorate would abolish tomorrow if only we could. We look and laugh at a' that. But it's not funny. | |||
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" That is something that is worth preserving. That is something the Scottish electorate would abolish tomorrow if only we could. We look and laugh at a' that. But it's not funny. " Would we? and Do we? 
What you meant to say was YOU would and YOU do!
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" Would we? and Do we?
What you meant to say was YOU would and YOU do!
"No, that's not what I meant to say at all. Do you think if we all got a vote tomorrow to bin them we'd vote no? If so, I think you are very out of touch. | |||
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" Would we? and Do we?
What you meant to say was YOU would and YOU do!
No, that's not what I meant to say at all. Do you think if we all got a vote tomorrow to bin them we'd vote no? If so, I think you are very out of touch. "It is what you meant to say because you cannot speak for me or anyone else. Through both of the threads on this subject you have put your views forward as if they are the views of the whole of Scotland, they're not, they are your own personal views and what you believe from what the SNP have put forward as their White Paper for "Scotland's Future". I'll say again, nobody knows what will happen after the vote as there is so many "ifs and buts" and a lot has to happen (if the vote is a yes) for the SNP to deliver on their "Scotland's Future" - The main one being the SNP getting voted in as a majority Government! After that they have to get Europe and the UK Government to go along with their "hoped & dreams", etc. Have you actually read through "Scotland's Future"? | |||
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" ........ Have you actually read through "Scotland's Future"? "You mean the Shite Paper? Izal without the perforations. | |||
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" Would we? and Do we?
What you meant to say was YOU would and YOU do!
No, that's not what I meant to say at all. Do you think if we all got a vote tomorrow to bin them we'd vote no? If so, I think you are very out of touch.
It is what you meant to say because you cannot speak for me or anyone else.
Through both of the threads on this subject you have put your views forward as if they are the views of the whole of Scotland, they're not, they are your own personal views and what you believe from what the SNP have put forward as their White Paper for "Scotland's Future".
I'll say again, nobody knows what will happen after the vote as there is so many "ifs and buts" and a lot has to happen (if the vote is a yes) for the SNP to deliver on their "Scotland's Future" - The main one being the SNP getting voted in as a majority Government! After that they have to get Europe and the UK Government to go along with their "hoped & dreams", etc.
Have you actually read through "Scotland's Future"? "Mate I've believed in independence and campaigned for it since before the snp were near power. So yes. My views on here are my own but how else does one debate? Am I supposed to ask everyone before I can refer to trends or popular beliefs? I am putting across strong arguments which are more often than not being met with "your just saying that because you hate the English" and it's getting rather tiring. Your point whoever seems to be that no one can debate the best thing for a country without asking everyone in it first. I'm sure you know that the bbc is pro union. So our job is difficult. We have to get the message out there. There are people reading this who have no idea that Scotland is stronger economically than the uk. They may well vote thinking we can't afford it. I'm not just sitting about waiting for them to vote in ignorance. (Disclaimer. - the views within this post are my own views just in case it wasn't clear to anyone. ) | |||
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" ........ Have you actually read through "Scotland's Future"?
You mean the Shite Paper?
Izal without the perforations."Yup that's the one, it also make a good paperweight for my desk! | |||
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"See when someone calls you mate, you know what follows will be nonsense. PS this applies to M8 too." You contribute nothing! You some up the no campaign perfectly. | |||
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"See when someone calls you mate, you know what follows will be nonsense. PS this applies to M8 too. You contribute nothing! You some up the no campaign perfectly. " Well, you started it | |||
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" Would we? and Do we?
What you meant to say was YOU would and YOU do!
No, that's not what I meant to say at all. Do you think if we all got a vote tomorrow to bin them we'd vote no? If so, I think you are very out of touch.
It is what you meant to say because you cannot speak for me or anyone else.
Through both of the threads on this subject you have put your views forward as if they are the views of the whole of Scotland, they're not, they are your own personal views and what you believe from what the SNP have put forward as their White Paper for "Scotland's Future".
I'll say again, nobody knows what will happen after the vote as there is so many "ifs and buts" and a lot has to happen (if the vote is a yes) for the SNP to deliver on their "Scotland's Future" - The main one being the SNP getting voted in as a majority Government! After that they have to get Europe and the UK Government to go along with their "hoped & dreams", etc.
Have you actually read through "Scotland's Future"?
Mate I've believed in independence and campaigned for it since before the snp were near power. So yes. My views on here are my own but how else does one debate? Am I supposed to ask everyone before I can refer to trends or popular beliefs? I am putting across strong arguments which are more often than not being met with "your just saying that because you hate the English" and it's getting rather tiring. Your point whoever seems to be that no one can debate the best thing for a country without asking everyone in it first. I'm sure you know that the bbc is pro union. So our job is difficult. We have to get the message out there. There are people reading this who have no idea that Scotland is stronger economically than the uk. They may well vote thinking we can't afford it. I'm not just sitting about waiting for them to vote in ignorance.
(Disclaimer. - the views within this post are my own views just in case it wasn't clear to anyone. )"I've never once said "you hate the English" as an answer to you own point of view. I have said you make out you are talking for the whole of Scotland; you're not! You're views of what Scotland would be like are based on what the SNP have said will happen IF there is a yes vote and they get a majority vote in the resulting election and they get everyone else in the rest of the UK and Europe to agree with them. You do argue well for your OWN views but they are not my views or a hell of a lot of other people's view either. Disclaimer - Nobody knows what will happen after the 18th September and your views may sound strong to you but not to everyone else!  | |||
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" ........ Have you actually read through "Scotland's Future"?
You mean the Shite Paper?
Izal without the perforations.
Yup that's the one, it also make a good paperweight for my desk! "Mine is under the shoogly leg on my desk. | |||
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" Would we? and Do we?
What you meant to say was YOU would and YOU do!
No, that's not what I meant to say at all. Do you think if we all got a vote tomorrow to bin them we'd vote no? If so, I think you are very out of touch.
It is what you meant to say because you cannot speak for me or anyone else.
Through both of the threads on this subject you have put your views forward as if they are the views of the whole of Scotland, they're not, they are your own personal views and what you believe from what the SNP have put forward as their White Paper for "Scotland's Future".
I'll say again, nobody knows what will happen after the vote as there is so many "ifs and buts" and a lot has to happen (if the vote is a yes) for the SNP to deliver on their "Scotland's Future" - The main one being the SNP getting voted in as a majority Government! After that they have to get Europe and the UK Government to go along with their "hoped & dreams", etc.
Have you actually read through "Scotland's Future"?
Mate I've believed in independence and campaigned for it since before the snp were near power. So yes. My views on here are my own but how else does one debate? Am I supposed to ask everyone before I can refer to trends or popular beliefs? I am putting across strong arguments which are more often than not being met with "your just saying that because you hate the English" and it's getting rather tiring. Your point whoever seems to be that no one can debate the best thing for a country without asking everyone in it first. I'm sure you know that the bbc is pro union. So our job is difficult. We have to get the message out there. There are people reading this who have no idea that Scotland is stronger economically than the uk. They may well vote thinking we can't afford it. I'm not just sitting about waiting for them to vote in ignorance.
(Disclaimer. - the views within this post are my own views just in case it wasn't clear to anyone. )
I've never once said "you hate the English" as an answer to you own point of view.
I have said you make out you are talking for the whole of Scotland; you're not!
You're views of what Scotland would be like are based on what the SNP have said will happen IF there is a yes vote and they get a majority vote in the resulting election and they get everyone else in the rest of the UK and Europe to agree with them.
You do argue well for your OWN views but they are not my views or a hell of a lot of other people's view either.
Disclaimer - Nobody knows what will happen after the 18th September and your views may sound strong to you but not to everyone else! "Cept the Nats will be drowning their sorrows. | |||
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" Would we? and Do we?
What you meant to say was YOU would and YOU do!
No, that's not what I meant to say at all. Do you think if we all got a vote tomorrow to bin them we'd vote no? If so, I think you are very out of touch.
It is what you meant to say because you cannot speak for me or anyone else.
Through both of the threads on this subject you have put your views forward as if they are the views of the whole of Scotland, they're not, they are your own personal views and what you believe from what the SNP have put forward as their White Paper for "Scotland's Future".
I'll say again, nobody knows what will happen after the vote as there is so many "ifs and buts" and a lot has to happen (if the vote is a yes) for the SNP to deliver on their "Scotland's Future" - The main one being the SNP getting voted in as a majority Government! After that they have to get Europe and the UK Government to go along with their "hoped & dreams", etc.
Have you actually read through "Scotland's Future"?
Mate I've believed in independence and campaigned for it since before the snp were near power. So yes. My views on here are my own but how else does one debate? Am I supposed to ask everyone before I can refer to trends or popular beliefs? I am putting across strong arguments which are more often than not being met with "your just saying that because you hate the English" and it's getting rather tiring. Your point whoever seems to be that no one can debate the best thing for a country without asking everyone in it first. I'm sure you know that the bbc is pro union. So our job is difficult. We have to get the message out there. There are people reading this who have no idea that Scotland is stronger economically than the uk. They may well vote thinking we can't afford it. I'm not just sitting about waiting for them to vote in ignorance.
(Disclaimer. - the views within this post are my own views just in case it wasn't clear to anyone. )
I've never once said "you hate the English" as an answer to you own point of view.
I have said you make out you are talking for the whole of Scotland; you're not!
You're views of what Scotland would be like are based on what the SNP have said will happen IF there is a yes vote and they get a majority vote in the resulting election and they get everyone else in the rest of the UK and Europe to agree with them.
You do argue well for your OWN views but they are not my views or a hell of a lot of other people's view either.
Disclaimer - Nobody knows what will happen after the 18th September and your views may sound strong to you but not to everyone else! "I wasn't referring to you when I said that. I have gotten a lot of that over the threads though. Very frustrating as a sign that the debate is poorly understood outside of Scotland. | |||
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"I wasn't referring to you when I said that. I have gotten a lot of that over the threads though. Very frustrating as a sign that the debate is poorly understood outside of Scotland." Frustrating to you maybe but probably not to everyone though. Some people outside of Scotland may see things a little clearer than you do as you are blinded by the belief that all that the SNP have put forward as "Scotland's Future" is going to happen after the vote! | |||
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