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panorama

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

if anyone watched this looks like our goverment condoned murder,I wonder if those responsible for approving this will be brought to justice?

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

No they won't, but neither, I suspect, will Adams or McGuiness.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

They have nothing to do with this subject.

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By *ove bi guysWoman over a year ago

Birmingham

"No they won't, but neither, I suspect, will Adams or McGuiness. "

Or any of the leaders from the Ulster paramilitary groups either

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

They Where as bad as each other,my point is that the british goverment sanctioned a murder sqaud to shoot unarmed ppl .

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"They Where as bad as each other,my point is that the british goverment sanctioned a murder sqaud to shoot unarmed ppl ."

Not having seen the programme can you tell me if this has actually been proven ?

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By *ove bi guysWoman over a year ago

Birmingham

"They Where as bad as each other,my point is that the british goverment sanctioned a murder sqaud to shoot unarmed ppl ."

I would like to think someone would be held accountable but I fear they will tie it all up in reports and enquiries hoping it will go away. If they can find out the man / group who sanctioned this I wonder if they could be done for war crimes .... After it was unarmed civilians

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"They Where as bad as each other,my point is that the british goverment sanctioned a murder sqaud to shoot unarmed ppl .

Not having seen the programme can you tell me if this has actually been proven ?"

yes it has as ex soldiers WHO took part in the shootings were interviewed on panorama.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"They Where as bad as each other,my point is that the british goverment sanctioned a murder sqaud to shoot unarmed ppl .

As were alot of the people who were bombed by the iRA.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This was another terrorist organisation in NI, yes, but this one has a difference, it was actually sponsored by a UN registered state!!

No different to the Gestapo & the KGB -Shame on both the politicians & the military - but they'll get away with cold-blooded murder as per usual - but rot in hell.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

Well said.

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By *ove bi guysWoman over a year ago

Birmingham

"They Where as bad as each other,my point is that the british goverment sanctioned a murder sqaud to shoot unarmed ppl .

As were alot of the people who were bombed by the iRA. "

IRA were not the government, the army, the people meant to uphold what is right and good.

The IRA did bomb, I think you'll find the loyalist groups killed people too !

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By *ete burnsMan over a year ago

derry

"This was another terrorist organisation in NI, yes, but this one has a difference, it was actually sponsored by a UN registered state!!

No different to the Gestapo & the KGB -Shame on both the politicians & the military - but they'll get away with cold-blooded murder as per usual - but rot in hell."
here here!!

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By *ove bi guysWoman over a year ago

Birmingham

"This was another terrorist organisation in NI, yes, but this one has a difference, it was actually sponsored by a UN registered state!!

No different to the Gestapo & the KGB -Shame on both the politicians & the military - but they'll get away with cold-blooded murder as per usual - but rot in hell."

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think the point that is being made that yes the republicans and the loyalists did kill innocent people, so did the forces of the government of the day who were supposed to be keeping law and order

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By *ucsparkMan over a year ago

dudley

"if anyone watched this looks like our goverment condoned murder,I wonder if those responsible for approving this will be brought to justice?

Fun how these programmes seem to happen around other events ie brum pub bombings. Thou I never codon murder the IRA were worst in the fact that they killed children. The effect on normal people from the conflict was far reaching and as I believe it the squad was used for containment. Cutting off the snakes head as it were.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think the point that is being made that yes the republicans and the loyalists did kill innocent people, so did the forces of the government of the day who were supposed to be keeping law and order "

Totall agree our soldiers Where there to protect the ppl,I just think whoevere sanctioned the cold blooded murder of innocent ppl should be held to account .

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think the point that is being made that yes the republicans and the loyalists did kill innocent people, so did the forces of the government of the day who were supposed to be keeping law and order

Totall agree our soldiers Where there to protect the ppl,I just think whoevere sanctioned the cold blooded murder of innocent ppl should be held to account ."

To be honest I think people should know what happened an the truth came out but for the sake of peace and reconciliation I don't know if prosecutions are the way forward now

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"if anyone watched this looks like our goverment condoned murder,I wonder if those responsible for approving this will be brought to justice?

And Does that make it acceptable to u When innocent ppl were murdered,that makes us no better than the terrorist.

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By *ove bi guysWoman over a year ago

Birmingham

"I think the point that is being made that yes the republicans and the loyalists did kill innocent people, so did the forces of the government of the day who were supposed to be keeping law and order

Totall agree our soldiers Where there to protect the ppl,I just think whoevere sanctioned the cold blooded murder of innocent ppl should be held to account ."

If we (this government) found out about this happening in another country they would be sticking their nose, making a fuss and wanting the people held accountable.

I wonder how many people in this and previous governments have known about this and covered it up.

Regardless of what side you were on during the troubles people were killed and hurt but you 'should' be able to trust the army not to kill innocent unarmed civilians

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"if anyone watched this looks like our goverment condoned murder,I wonder if those responsible for approving this will be brought to justice?

I really think you need to do some more reading on the subject if you think that your forces of law and order didn't kill children. The difference is that they managed to hoodwink a gullible public into believing that those children were involved in fictitious rioting, or some other such nonsense. The worst day of the troubles in terms of numbers of dead was may 17th, 1974, the day on which Dublin and Monaghan were bombed. Your government has suppressed their files on the matter, and our police force has received no help from the ruc in tracing the killers. Why? Because your military had a hand in it. Fact! The UVF in the Portadown area was aided and some members trained by your military. This unit alone is responsible for the deaths of at least 120 civilians who were targeted not because they were suspected combatants, but simply because they were Catholics. This was done with the knowledge of your military, with weapons that your military bought and paid for.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think the point that is being made that yes the republicans and the loyalists did kill innocent people, so did the forces of the government of the day who were supposed to be keeping law and order

Totall agree our soldiers Where there to protect the ppl,I just think whoevere sanctioned the cold blooded murder of innocent ppl should be held to account .

If we (this government) found out about this happening in another country they would be sticking their nose, making a fuss and wanting the people held accountable.

I wonder how many people in this and previous governments have known about this and covered it up.

Regardless of what side you were on during the troubles people were killed and hurt but you 'should' be able to trust the army not to kill innocent unarmed

civilians"

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By *ove bi guysWoman over a year ago

Birmingham

"if anyone watched this looks like our goverment condoned murder,I wonder if those responsible for approving this will be brought to justice?

Well said. You put in a paragraph what would have taken me hrs

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"if anyone watched this looks like our goverment condoned murder,I wonder if those responsible for approving this will be brought to justice?

having watched this programme it Seems the british goverment/army are responsible for quite a few murders of innocent ppl!!given a british uniform given a british gun join a british regiment to have their selves some fun and commit murder with no comeback

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Am i right in thinking that the IRA and its Supporters considered it a War and the british government classed it as Terrorism ?. If so "Civilian" Casualties are expected in war, terrorists hide amongst their own people inviting those that are charged with peacekeeping to make a mistake so that they can gain support for their perceived just cause.

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By *ove bi guysWoman over a year ago

Birmingham

"Am i right in thinking that the IRA and its Supporters considered it a War and the british government classed it as Terrorism ?. If so "Civilian" Casualties are expected in war, terrorists hide amongst their own people inviting those that are charged with peacekeeping to make a mistake so that they can gain support for their perceived just cause."

Wrap in as many words as you like... The britsh government and their army knowingly killed innocent people.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

if u watch the programme it was a murder sqaud set up ny the british goverment surely that cant be condoned?

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By *asonce2Man over a year ago

Caton

Are we talking about "innocent people" or cold blooded killers of the IRA who just happened to be unnarmed at the time. Anyone would think that the poor old IRA were complete angels.

4 minutes ago

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" a murder squad set up by the british goverment surely that cannot be condoned?

here! here!

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"Are we talking about "innocent people" or cold blooded killers of the IRA who just happened to be unnarmed at the time. Anyone would think that the poor old IRA were complete angels.

4 minutes ago"

We're talking about innocent civilians with no connection to any political groups whatsoever.

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By *asonce2Man over a year ago

Caton

But don't all convicts in Prison claim they are innocent too? Can't see the IRA admitting they were members, too much political gain to be made saying what murdering bastards the British were.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"But don't all convicts in Prison claim they are innocent too? Can't see the IRA admitting they were members, too much political gain to be made saying what murdering bastards the British were."

You appear to have no understanding of the situation. Martyrs were and are important to groups such as the IRA. Part of the plan was to convince people that this was a religious war, and that the British military were the honest brokers stuck in the middle trying to keep the warring factions apart. If you really want to understand why the conflict developed into the horrendous med that it became, read up on things like the Ballymurphy massacre, internment, bloody Sunday, the Glenanne gang for starters. Yes, these may all be on one side, but it might just give you some idea of what your military were involved in and how they managed to escalate it from a campaign for civil rights into the awful murderous campaign that it became.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

free northern ireland and get the brits out now.the IRA are just fighting for freedom and the british government are just killing anyone one over irland thats not british like they are doing over afghaistan.the biggest terorists in the uk and the usa is the goverment a lot of u dont no that. u just see what the goverment want u to see.land and oil wars.thats all the government wants.u cant stop wars as long as its land and oil there will be more and more wars.greed.greed.greed.free northern irland.by the way u say the IRA were the worst for killing children.the uk and the usa do that every day in afghanistan.so i dont think so

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By *asonce2Man over a year ago

Caton

I was born into and brought up in a Military family and spent my formative years as a "Legitimate" target for the IRA. I have lived and worked alongside the so called "Murdering Bastard's" that some would have us believe. I can tell you that If most of the Armed Forces had an option it would have been to pull out and let them get on with it. The problems in Northern Ireland stem back over centuries and will only be resolved through Politics not armed conflict.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"free northern ireland and get the brits out now.the IRA are just fighting for freedom and the british government are just killing anyone one over irland thats not british like they are doing over afghaistan.the biggest terorists in the uk and the usa is the goverment a lot of u dont no that. u just see what the goverment want u to see.land and oil wars.thats all the government wants.u cant stop wars as long as its land and oil there will be more and more wars.greed.greed.greed.free northern irland.by the way u say the IRA were the worst for killing children.the uk and the usa do that every day in afghanistan.so i dont think so

WoW thats some Rant

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By *ollie_JCouple over a year ago

London

The author of the original book this was taken from and the subsequent daily mail and panorama articles and programmes has commented in another forum on this

He is getting rubbished on the forum from ex forces people but has come out with the fact that the original story has been extremely enhanced (ie the death squads)

Iit is very interesting if you read up on the how the original unit was formed and the two operations which hesitated its demise (four square laundry and the massage parlour)

The army finally got its hands around this and 14 int was formed to take over

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"I was born into and brought up in a Military family and spent my formative years as a "Legitimate" target for the IRA. I have lived and worked alongside the so called "Murdering Bastard's" that some would have us believe. I can tell you that If most of the Armed Forces had an option it would have been to pull out and let them get on with it. The problems in Northern Ireland stem back over centuries and will only be resolved through Politics not armed conflict. "

To a great extent you're right, but the core problems in 1969 were to do with discrimination against catholics. The civil rights organisation NICRA was campaigning for fairer distribution of local authority housing, an end to discrimination in employment, and "one man, one vote". They were simply beaten off the streets. If the British government had stepped in to correct this situation, and ensure that state sponsored discrimination as well as gerrymandering were done away with, who knows what might have transpired?

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By *thwalescplCouple over a year ago

brecon

Wrap in as many words as you like... The britsh government and their army knowingly killed innocent people. "

And how many innocent men women and children did the IRA kill or maim?

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

I served there in 77 and 82, it was instilled in us that the yellow card rules of engagement was paramount and that any none compliance with that would poss have you in the dock if you used potentially lethal force outside of it..

like any set of rules it had many flaws and we discussed the what if's many, many times..

anyone who actively and knowingly disregarded it and deliberately targeted random people deserves to be held to account, even now..

as do those who sanctioned such a 'policy'..

in a dirty war when a small element of the state acts like the terrorists, then only the terrorist have gained..

whatever their 'side'..

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

Wrap in as many words as you like... The britsh government and their army knowingly killed innocent people.

And how many innocent men women and children did the IRA kill or maim?

Too many, but then they've been officially labelled as terrorists. The British military have been labelled as "peacekeepers".

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"I served there in 77 and 82, it was instilled in us that the yellow card rules of engagement was paramount and that any none compliance with that would poss have you in the dock if you used potentially lethal force outside of it..

like any set of rules it had many flaws and we discussed the what if's many, many times..

anyone who actively and knowingly disregarded it and deliberately targeted random people deserves to be held to account, even now..

as do those who sanctioned such a 'policy'..

in a dirty war when a small element of the state acts like the terrorists, then only the terrorist have gained..

whatever their 'side'.."

I think you've got the nail on the head. Those who sanctioned it were the problem, and the murky way in which it was done.

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By *asonce2Man over a year ago

Caton

In hindsight If they had managed the situation correctly we would have had a better solution sooner with a lot less killing and Heartache.I do think now that there is hope a Political solution can bring lasting peace it does not help to open old wounds. For the sake of peace we have to let the past be sometimes, however unpalatable that may be (to both sides). I can and do sympathise with those who lost loved ones, and thank God that I am not one of them but if that means that people in (Northern) Ireland can live amongst one another without hatred then let it be so.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

letting the past be is a laudable idea however folks deserve answers..

bit like Hillsborough..

the truth and reconciliation hearings in SA would be an idea but cant see it happening for many reasons..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"In hindsight If they had managed the situation correctly we would have had a better solution sooner with a lot less killing and Heartache.I do think now that there is hope a Political solution can bring lasting peace it does not help to open old wounds. For the sake of peace we have to let the past be sometimes, however unpalatable that may be (to both sides). I can and do sympathise with those who lost loved ones, and thank God that I am not one of them but if that means that people in (Northern) Ireland can live amongst one another without hatred then let it be so."

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By *asonce2Man over a year ago

Caton

Hillsborough was a tragedy not brought about by conflict and ideology and therefore there is no danger in knowing the truth and it should out. Whilst there is Peace at stake it is very unwise to take this course as it could endanger the Peace process, for the sake of that Peace it is necessary for old enemies to talk without recrimination.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Wrap in as many words as you like... The britsh government and their army knowingly killed innocent people.

And how many innocent men women and children did the IRA kill or maim?

Too many, but then they've been officially labelled as terrorists. The British military have been labelled as "peacekeepers". "

Or heroes!!!

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"Are we talking about "innocent people" or cold blooded killers of the IRA who just happened to be unnarmed at the time. Anyone would think that the poor old IRA were complete angels.

4 minutes ago

We're talking about innocent civilians with no connection to any political groups whatsoever. "

Like two young boys in Warrington?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"if anyone watched this looks like our goverment condoned murder,I wonder if those responsible for approving this will be brought to justice?

If the unarmed people we're baby murdering, family slaughtering terrorists then I don't have a problem with it what so ever.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"They have nothing to do with this subject."

not sure that i get that !!

surely as they are former senior members of a paramilitary group (allegedly) who have gone on to become senior politicians in NI that would be enough for them to have something to do with the subject.

my feelings on this are if you are going to put one individual or group on trial for the events which took place you have to put them all on trial.

however i dont believe that will ever happen, perhaps we should look to places like south africa and rwanda where a peace and reconciliation process took place.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"Are we talking about "innocent people" or cold blooded killers of the IRA who just happened to be unnarmed at the time. Anyone would think that the poor old IRA were complete angels.

4 minutes ago

We're talking about innocent civilians with no connection to any political groups whatsoever.

Like two young boys in Warrington?"

Absolutely!

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"They have nothing to do with this subject.

not sure that i get that !!

my feelings on this are if you are going to put one individual or group on trial for the events which took place you have to put them all on trial.

however i dont believe that will ever happen, perhaps we should look to places like south africa and rwanda where a peace and reconciliation process took place."

Yes, but they have actually been on trial.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

" Hillsborough was a tragedy not brought about by conflict and ideology and therefore there is no danger in knowing the truth and it should out. Whilst there is Peace at stake it is very unwise to take this course as it could endanger the Peace process, for the sake of that Peace it is necessary for old enemies to talk without recrimination."

Was'nt comparing the two events, my point was that those who survive lost loved ones deserve answers..

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"if anyone watched this looks like our goverment condoned murder,I wonder if those responsible for approving this will be brought to justice?

If the unarmed people we're baby murdering, family slaughtering terrorists then I don't have a problem with it what so ever."

have a look at the programme, it certainly looks like the instances referred to the people shot were not players..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

like any set of rules it had many flaws and we discussed the what if's many, many times..

anyone who actively and knowingly disregarded it and deliberately targeted random people deserves to be held to account, even now..

as do those who sanctioned such a 'policy'..

in a dirty war when a small element of the state acts like the terrorists, then only the terrorist have gained..

whatever their 'side'.."

Respect to you, dude for being big enough to post

that!!

The military heirarchy who sanctioned these murderers should be brought to justice, preferably in The Hague - where there won't be a 30 year leg-dragging public inquiry, like the infamous 'Bloody Sunday' fiasco!!

Also, all of the military heirarchy & politicians who have been covering this up for the last 30-40 years should be made accountable too!!

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By *asonce2Man over a year ago

Caton

Does this not prove a point. The search for justice at this point in time is counter-productive to the Peace process, it has already brought argument to this Forum,and if bringing the guilty to justice destroys that process, is it worth it? I am sure Michael that you would much rather have a Peaceful resolution to the problems in your homeland. As for the victims of this bloody conflict surely it is hoped that their loss is not in vain by such events happening again. Let History judge the guilty of which I am sure there are on both sides.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

All those who were targeted were paramilitary. The programme failed to mention the lengthy inelegance gathering that went before the shootings. These soldiers were not cowboys just going around shooting people like in the movies.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"All those who were targeted were paramilitary. The programme failed to mention the lengthy inelegance gathering that went before the shootings. These soldiers were not cowboys just going around shooting people like in the movies. "

What, the same as in Bloody Sunday, you mean?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

They weren't?

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By *thwalescplCouple over a year ago

brecon

At its worst, 4 bombs a day were going off in Northern Ireland, and in total, over 10,000 people have died, by far the majority killed in cold blood by terrorists.

Does this condone the killing of innocent civilians by the Army? No.

But the Army didn't plant bombs that maimed and killed random strangers, if they did shoot, they were (mostly by various accounts) targeting known IRA members. If those terrorists were unarmed, well, you live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Mistakes will probably have been made, just like when they hanged people who were later proved to be not guilty.

It's an emotive subject, innocent people on both sides died, but hopefully now there can be a lasting peace. Maybe it is time to stop looking back, and instead look forward.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"At its worst, 4 bombs a day were going off in Northern Ireland, and in total, over 10,000 people have died, by far the majority killed in cold blood by terrorists.

Does this condone the killing of innocent civilians by the Army? No.

Mistakes will probably have been made, just like when they hanged people who were later proved to be not guilty.

It's an emotive subject, innocent people on both sides died, but hopefully now there can be a lasting peace. Maybe it is time to stop looking back, and instead look forward."

cant disagree with your closing statement, the problem with that though is human nature. The desire to point the finger of blame is such that until you reconcile the past its extremely difficult to move forward.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"At its worst, 4 bombs a day were going off in Northern Ireland, and in total, over 10,000 people have died, by far the majority killed in cold blood by terrorists.

Does this condone the killing of innocent civilians by the Army? No.

Mistakes will probably have been made, just like when they hanged people who were later proved to be not guilty.

It's an emotive subject, innocent people on both sides died, but hopefully now there can be a lasting peace. Maybe it is time to stop looking back, and instead look forward."

There are so many inaccuracies in that that I'm not sure where to start.

Your numbers are way off, and I'm not sure where you got them from.

The British army through its various intelligence arms did actually bomb random people, over many years, and by various means.

The panorama programme dealt with a small number of incidents in which it was quite easily proven that the people who were killed were done so at random, and none had any connection with any political or paramilitary grouping. Don't fool yourself into thinking that these were the only innocent civilians shot by the military. These were not "mistskes".

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But the point is that one of the terrorist groups 'we' now know were sanctioned by a UN registered state; - that's a game changer!!

That's a war crime - but it seems blatantly obvious that some countries have immunity from war crimes tribunals & trials; & we, I'm afraid are one of them!!

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By *thwalescplCouple over a year ago

brecon

"At its worst, 4 bombs a day were going off in Northern Ireland, and in total, over 10,000 people have died, by far the majority killed in cold blood by terrorists.

Does this condone the killing of innocent civilians by the Army? No.

Mistakes will probably have been made, just like when they hanged people who were later proved to be not guilty.

It's an emotive subject, innocent people on both sides died, but hopefully now there can be a lasting peace. Maybe it is time to stop looking back, and instead look forward.

There are so many inaccuracies in that that I'm not sure where to start.

Your numbers are way off, and I'm not sure where you got them from.

The British army through its various intelligence arms did actually bomb random people, over many years, and by various means.

You are correct, some of my figures were incorrect.

These are the official figures.

Security forces dead... 1059

Terrorist dead... 529

Civilian dead... 1942

Injured (no deliniation between groups) 47,541.

I mis-read the number of security forces dead as being over 10,000.

In order to maintain their cover stories, some "agents" of the security services did, on occassion, take part in terrorist activities.

I stand by the point that most of those shot by the undercover soldiers were either members of, or knowingly taking part in, some form of para-military activities, either armed or unarmed.

I also accepted that, on occassion, innocent bystanders were also shot, either accidentally, or by mistake.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Lets just do the right thing, practice what we preach and let The Hague sort it out!!

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

I stand by the point that most of those shot by the undercover soldiers were either members of, or knowingly taking part in, some form of para-military activities, either armed or unarmed.

I also accepted that, on occassion, innocent bystanders were also shot, either accidentally, or by mistake.

The problem with that is that it's simply untrue. If you do nothing else, read up on the Glenanne gang. It'll give you a good starting point.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I've said it once i'll say it again, northern irish politics not touching it with a barge pole

but consider thos folks, there are two sides to each story and inbetween the two lies the truth

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

There is NO lasting peace. There's a lull in hostilities whilst the paramilitaries (on both sides) regroup and plan their strategies.

Neither side is happy with things as they are. Flags being flown and parades being held for the specific purpose of sticking two fingers up at the other side.

There's still a lot of scores to be settled.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What, the same as in Bloody Sunday, you mean?"

Very easy to throw in random statements with no facts attached

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By *at2Couple over a year ago

north Down

As a person who was born and raised through the whole conflict and still lives in Northern Ireland I have been reading with interest the responses to this thread and being from a Protestant/unionist/ British/ background I can only say that I find this no surprise and can tell you that through out and up to now that all sides were using each other and colluding in a dirty war a lot of what Michael McCarthy and a few others have said is right if in 1969 the civil rights marches had been handled rightly then as I believe things could have and would have turned out differently. But sadly that did not happen everyone got entrenched in their own ideals and all hell broke loose. I have been often asked over the years when either working or traveling around the world why didn't we get round a table and sort it or just do this or that to ease things . It wasn't that simple almost the whole of N.ireland was put into a closed sectarian state. Meaning that I and almost everyone else lived in an estate/area of a town usually within a local area which in my case was loyalist/Protestant/British and went to a school which was totally protestant in that school and town You never questioned the view of things and daren't i grew up with people who went on to be terrorists / police/ British soldiers the whole social spectrum and the same happened in the Irish/nationalist / republican areas this meant that up until I left school I and everyone else had a set and instilled or should I say brainwashed knowledge of what was happening and who the was to blame and who the enemy were and so on. But with most people once you step outside that box you learn that hey maybe you were being fed a lie and that things are not so black and white since I left school I and many others from both sides have had to and believe me it's not easy to relearn and understand how things can be manipulated to the point that really nasty things can occur. These soldiers were hand picked for this for a reason not everyone has a moral compass and believe me I have grown up with and still know some of the most evil people you would not like to know. Like a lot off people when they get to certain age they like to get things of their shoulders and this is no different these soldiers in my eyes are as guilty as any of the loyalist or republican murders that they targeted but the ones that ordered these people to do this and hid behind the scenes are beyond contempt but as with the way off things they will get off with any charges and the soldiers will be scapegoated . I still can get my younger voice in my head when something to do with the troubles comes up like this but that voice is the Brianwashed one from my youth and like many others you have to put it back in the past where it belongs or things will never get better just wish a lot of others would learn to do the same.

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By *thwalescplCouple over a year ago

brecon

I stand by the point that most of those shot by the undercover soldiers were either members of, or knowingly taking part in, some form of para-military activities, either armed or unarmed.

I also accepted that, on occassion, innocent bystanders were also shot, either accidentally, or by mistake.

The problem with that is that it's simply untrue. If you do nothing else, read up on the Glenanne gang. It'll give you a good starting point.

We could go round and round this, quoting various pieces of written and unwritten "facts", but the bottom line is, Irish terrorists deliberately killed and maimed far more innocent people than anyone else involved in the situation in Northern Ireland.

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By *at2Couple over a year ago

north Down

I stand by the point that most of those shot by the undercover soldiers were either members of, or knowingly taking part in, some form of para-military activities, either armed or unarmed.

I also accepted that, on occassion, innocent bystanders were also shot, either accidentally, or by mistake.

The problem with that is that it's simply untrue. If you do nothing else, read up on the Glenanne gang. It'll give you a good starting point.

You are right in what you have stated but does that make it acceptable and just or does that make it like the other murders wrong there can't be two different rules as then everyone would be justified in what they did...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

i have read the posts on this thread with great interest.

i watched panorama as i also watched storyville - the disappeared

i would urge everyone to watch this programme or look into the case of Jean McConville a mother of seven who was taken from her home in front of her children by a gang of 12 IRA members (including women). were she was executed and her body buried on a beach in eire on the orders of the brigade commander in belfast.

her crime was to offer comfort to injured British solidier, the significance of the case is the brigade commander for belfast was a certain G.Adams.

we live in different times to as they were then.

the soldiers evidence in panorama as not been proven either way however if it is correct then they and their superiors should face prosecution but then again so should all the bridage commanders and the terrorists for both the IRA and the UVF you cannot have one without the other otherwise you will have an imbalance and if there is any imbalance then one side will feel they have a grievance and if that is the case there will be retribution and we do not need to go back.

south Africa managed it by all parties admitting their past misdemeanors with the knowledge that the opposite side accepted that these were things of the past and the future would be different.

when they ALL admit their past misdemeanors, then and only then can all parties move on.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"As a person who was born and raised through the whole conflict and still lives in Northern Ireland I have been reading with interest the responses to this thread and being from a Protestant/unionist/ British/ background I can only say that I find this no surprise and can tell you that through out and up to now that all sides were using each other and colluding in a dirty war a lot of what Michael McCarthy and a few others have said is right if in 1969 the civil rights marches had been handled rightly then as I believe things could have and would have turned out differently. But sadly that did not happen everyone got entrenched in their own ideals and all hell broke loose. I have been often asked over the years when either working or traveling around the world why didn't we get round a table and sort it or just do this or that to ease things . It wasn't that simple almost the whole of N.ireland was put into a closed sectarian state. Meaning that I and almost everyone else lived in an estate/area of a town usually within a local area which in my case was loyalist/Protestant/British and went to a school which was totally protestant in that school and town You never questioned the view of things and daren't i grew up with people who went on to be terrorists / police/ British soldiers the whole social spectrum and the same happened in the Irish/nationalist / republican areas this meant that up until I left school I and everyone else had a set and instilled or should I say brainwashed knowledge of what was happening and who the was to blame and who the enemy were and so on. But with most people once you step outside that box you learn that hey maybe you were being fed a lie and that things are not so black and white since I left school I and many others from both sides have had to and believe me it's not easy to relearn and understand how things can be manipulated to the point that really nasty things can occur. These soldiers were hand picked for this for a reason not everyone has a moral compass and believe me I have grown up with and still know some of the most evil people you would not like to know. Like a lot off people when they get to certain age they like to get things of their shoulders and this is no different these soldiers in my eyes are as guilty as any of the loyalist or republican murders that they targeted but the ones that ordered these people to do this and hid behind the scenes are beyond contempt but as with the way off things they will get off with any charges and the soldiers will be scapegoated . I still can get my younger voice in my head when something to do with the troubles comes up like this but that voice is the Brianwashed one from my youth and like many others you have to put it back in the past where it belongs or things will never get better just wish a lot of others would learn to do the same."

That's really well said!

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

Never mind the "facts". I was talking about actual facts. The main problem I have with all of this is that a seminal stage in this conflict, the British military were involved in dirty tricks, with fingers in each pie. If they had played the role of honest broker, which they claimed to be doing, it may not have developed the way it did. Anyway, I've said my piece at this stage, so I'll leave you to it.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Yet another example of the 'we're always right, you're always wrong' mentality.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"Yet another example of the 'we're always right, you're always wrong' mentality."

Only when your perpetuating the lie you've been sold for forty years. I would have thought that someone like you might not just swallow the official line, but hey, that's your call. It might be helpful if you pointed out where I'm wrong, and possibly set me straight on it.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"Yet another example of the 'we're always right, you're always wrong' mentality.

You're wrong in suggesting that at 'a seminal stage, the Brits were playing dirty tricks'. The Brits were paying dirty all the way through. Just like both paramilitary sides.

Then there's those who certified all weapons had been decommissioned, when clearly they haven't.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Yet another example of the 'we're always right, you're always wrong' mentality.

You believe your facts and not other peoples facts, what are the facts no one on fab knows I doubt very much if the people involved with Panorama do either

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I stand by the point that most of those shot by the undercover soldiers were either members of, or knowingly taking part in, some form of para-military activities, either armed or unarmed.

I also accepted that, on occassion, innocent bystanders were also shot, either accidentally, or by mistake.

The problem with that is that it's simply untrue. If you do nothing else, read up on the Glenanne gang. It'll give you a good starting point.

But, I'm afraid, - that isn't a fact!!!

The fact that this, for instance, has only come to light now may give you a clue

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

You believe your facts and not other peoples facts, what are the facts no one on fab knows I doubt very much if the people involved with Panorama do either"

You're quite wrong. I believe facts. Facts are facts. The incidents covered in the panorama programme are provable facts. In answer to someone else's point there, these things haven't come to light just now, they've been known for 40 years. The difference is that some members of the mrf have spoken about it now.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Yet another example of the 'we're always right, you're always wrong' mentality.

You're wrong in suggesting that at 'a seminal stage, the Brits were playing dirty tricks'. The Brits were paying dirty all the way through. Just like both paramilitary sides.

Then there's those who certified all weapons had been decommissioned, when clearly they haven't."

like the case of Marion price (sister of dolours price) who admitted to being an accessory to the murder of two British soldiers in 2009 who left the barracks to collect the pizza they had ordered for their tea.

she will be sentenced next month

by the way dolours price was one of the 12 members of the IRA gang that abducted Jean McConville in 1972.

nobody has a divine right to preach to the other as every side fought their own corner as they saw fit

like i said earlier until everyone admits to their past misdemeanors you will never be free from the past.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

You're wrong in suggesting that at 'a seminal stage, the Brits were playing dirty tricks'. The Brits were paying dirty all the way through. Just like both paramilitary sides.

Then there's those who certified all weapons had been decommissioned, when clearly they haven't."

Yes but one paramilitary group was being largely influenced by military intelligence. That's a fact.

As regards decommissioning; only the IRA ever decommissioned any weapons. The loyalist groups never did, and the British military never did. Did some weapons slip through? I don't know, but I would presume that the couple of breakaway factions managed to sneak a few aside when they realised that the leadership was about to disarm. How many incidents have occurred using these? Do you know?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You believe your facts and not other peoples facts, what are the facts no one on fab knows I doubt very much if the people involved with Panorama do either

Of course no bias

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You believe your facts and not other peoples facts, what are the facts no one on fab knows I doubt very much if the people involved with Panorama do either

i hate to disagree with you however what panorama showed were allegations not fact

these allegations are currently being investigated liked the 3,530 people who were killed during the troubles.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 22/11/13 16:28:54]

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By *randmrsminxyCouple over a year ago

Gloucester

who really gives a fuck . there were happy to kill kids ,and as per normal it was down to fucking religion again . this country would be well fucked if we were fighting the second world war now . are troops would be wearing hi viz jackets and carrying a water pistol ( with no water i add as its dangerous)

In war shit happens and it was a war that came to the UK SHORES . This shit comes out now and then esp when they are in the middle of trying to get past crimes annulled with no convictions for past wrongs mmmm timing is everything .

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"who really gives a fuck . there were happy to kill kids ,and as per normal it was down to fucking religion again . this country would be well fucked if we were fighting the second world war now . are troops would be wearing hi viz jackets and carrying a water pistol ( with no water i add as its dangerous)

Who were happy to kill kids? These were innocent civilians? Oh wait, no, your boys wouldn't have shot anyone innocent. Sorry.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Catholic & Protestant are sects of the same religion ffs; religion my ass, try colonial greed & you've found your 'smoking gun', for the want of a better phrase!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Catholic & Protestant are sects of the same religion ffs; religion my ass, try colonial greed & you've found your 'smoking gun', for the want of a better phrase! "

how about drugs, extortion, prostitution and money laundering.

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By *icolerobbieCouple over a year ago

walsall

Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law."

But that's been proven time & time again to be futile; As the self-proclaimed world police - lets practice what we preach & let The Hague sort it!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Who were happy to kill kids? These were innocent civilians? Oh wait, no, your boys wouldn't have shot anyone innocent. Sorry. "

now come lets not forgot all those bombs (5 a day on average) i wonder who made,planted and detonated those things indiscriminately.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law."

i agree that they must all be prosecuted however that means all .

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Catholic & Protestant are sects of the same religion ffs; religion my ass, try colonial greed & you've found your 'smoking gun', for the want of a better phrase! "

Colonial greed explain that one what was Britain getting out of Northern Ireland the cost in blood was enormous as was the financial cost

As some one else said criminals

Who fought in the gutter then complain when their murdering companions are killed in the gutter

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law.

i agree that they must all be prosecuted however that means all ."

But only one UN registered state sponsored terror group - hence The Hague!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

iteresting if youve got a spare hour have a watch here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj-LeYvCeRM

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Catholic & Protestant are sects of the same religion ffs; religion my ass, try colonial greed & you've found your 'smoking gun', for the want of a better phrase!

Colonial greed explain that one what was Britain getting out of Northern Ireland the cost in blood was enormous as was the financial cost

As some one else said criminals

Who fought in the gutter then complain when their murdering companions are killed in the gutter"
time to learn history from a neutral source, I feel!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law.

i agree that they must all be prosecuted however that means all .

But only one UN registered state sponsored terror group - hence The Hague!!"
who exactly should be prosecuted?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law.

i agree that they must all be prosecuted however that means all .

But only one UN registered state sponsored terror group - hence The Hague!! who exactly should be prosecuted?"
the military heirarchy who implemented this terror group & the politicians who sanctioned it! Many are dead & rotting in hell, granted.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law.

i agree that they must all be prosecuted however that means all .

But only one UN registered state sponsored terror group - hence The Hague!! who exactly should be prosecuted? the military heirarchy who implemented this terror group & the politicians who sanctioned it! Many are dead & rotting in hell, granted."

It won't happen.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law.

i agree that they must all be prosecuted however that means all .

On the say of panorama !

" this terror group" what terror group

Let's spend millions on something that could be imagination

Proof , evidence

Or just something that suits a political view !

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 22/11/13 17:53:06]

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By *ollie_JCouple over a year ago

London

Anybody remember the Nemesis files? Ie th other book about Army Death Squads

When the authors get confronted by some hairy arsed coppers, the bullshit starts to unravel very quickly

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

First and foremost i find it hilarious to see people who don't live in Ireland discussing this, fairplay if you're Irish, live here or are/were in the armed forces i respect your view. These facts and figures you're all barking out, what difference does it make? Every faction has committed crime and bare in mind to you they may be stats but those people were somebody's son/daughter/father/mother

What's done is done, no squabbling can undo it FACT

having lived here all my life i can tell you the vast majority of yoinger generations have no interest in this, why hate somebody for a political view and things that happened long ago.

Paramilitaries only exisit now to line their own pockets with ill gotten gains from drugs, extortion and human trafficing. Example, i know of a fella doesn't work or claim dole but his house is dripping in style and he has two top of the range motors....what political cause is he fighting?

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By *randmrsminxyCouple over a year ago

Gloucester

Who were happy to kill kids? These were innocent civilians? Oh wait, no, your boys wouldn't have shot anyone innocent. Sorry. "

THE IRA ,

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law.

i agree that they must all be prosecuted however that means all .

On the say of panorama !

" this terror group" what terror group

Let's spend millions on something that could be imagination

Proof , evidence

Or just something that suits a political view !

Spend more millions on an eventual kangaroo court again? - nah, that's what The Hague is for!!

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

The whole thing just saddens me...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"First and foremost i find it hilarious to see people who don't live in Ireland discussing this, fairplay if you're Irish, live here or are/were in the armed forces i respect your view. These facts and figures you're all barking out, what difference does it make? Every faction has committed crime and bare in mind to you they may be stats but those people were somebody's son/daughter/father/mother

What's done is done, no squabbling can undo it FACT

having lived here all my life i can tell you the vast majority of yoinger generations have no interest in this, why hate somebody for a political view and things that happened long ago.

Why should we have no opinion because we live on UK main land Warrington Guildford and Birmingham to name but three places of murder

And you find it hilarious we have an opinion !

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By *randmrsminxyCouple over a year ago

Gloucester

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's done is done, no squabbling can undo it FACT

having lived here all my life i can tell you the vast majority of yoinger generations have no interest in this, why hate somebody for a political view and things that happened long ago.

Why should we have no opinion because we live on UK main land Warrington Guildford and Birmingham to name but three places of murder

And you find it hilarious we have an opinion !"

just saying, we can all have chips on our shoulders if we look far enough back in history

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Had HM Armed Forces gone 'underground' in the way suggested, the Troubles would have been over before they started and Mssrs Adams, McGuiness et al would be long forgotten, save on the anniversary of their demise.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"Had HM Armed Forces gone 'underground' in the way suggested, the Troubles would have been over before they started and Mssrs Adams, McGuiness et al would be long forgotten, save on the anniversary of their demise."

Lol, you really do come up with some great ideas. You need to read a little bit more about recent Irish history, and not from the ministry of defence press releases.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

Who were happy to kill kids? These were innocent civilians? Oh wait, no, your boys wouldn't have shot anyone innocent. Sorry.

THE IRA ,"

I'm guessing you don't believe that there's such a thing as an innocent civilian then?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's done is done, no squabbling can undo it FACT

having lived here all my life i can tell you the vast majority of yoinger generations have no interest in this, why hate somebody for a political view and things that happened long ago.

Why should we have no opinion because we live on UK main land Warrington Guildford and Birmingham to name but three places of murder

And you find it hilarious we have an opinion !

just saying, we can all have chips on our shoulders if we look far enough back in history"

I'm all for stopping the tit for tat and I'd agree with you that its now to do with crime and the financial gain

Most people want peace and prosperity

Who wants to look over there shoulder every day in fear

Some Posters on this thread seem to have a political axe to grind where justice would be secondary

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law.

i agree that they must all be prosecuted however that means all .

On the say of panorama !

" this terror group" what terror group

Let's spend millions on something that could be imagination

Proof , evidence

Or just something that suits a political view !

The proof is there, but you just don't want to see it. The any admitted that it was involved in the incidents investigated by panorama. They claimed they shot armed gunmen who were attacking. None of the dead were republicans though, and none were armed. Forensic tests confirmed that none of these victims had handled weapons. Which part of that is unclear?

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Who were happy to kill kids? These were innocent civilians? Oh wait, no, your boys wouldn't have shot anyone innocent. Sorry.

THE IRA ,

I'm guessing you don't believe that there's such a thing as an innocent civilian then? "

My money is on Jonathan Ball being innocent.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

Who were happy to kill kids? These were innocent civilians? Oh wait, no, your boys wouldn't have shot anyone innocent. Sorry.

THE IRA ,

I'm guessing you don't believe that there's such a thing as an innocent civilian then?

My money is on Jonathan Ball being innocent."

Did someone try to say he wasn't? I didn't notice that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's done is done, no squabbling can undo it FACT

having lived here all my life i can tell you the vast majority of yoinger generations have no interest in this, why hate somebody for a political view and things that happened long ago.

Why should we have no opinion because we live on UK main land Warrington Guildford and Birmingham to name but three places of murder

And you find it hilarious we have an opinion !

just saying, we can all have chips on our shoulders if we look far enough back in history

I'm all for stopping the tit for tat and I'd agree with you that its now to do with crime and the financial gain

Most people want peace and prosperity

Who wants to look over there shoulder every day in fear

Some Posters on this thread seem to have a political axe to grind where justice would be secondary "

I was just firing my 2c in for the craic. I'm of no political persuasion. In my job i have been aaked at least twice on people's doorsteps what denomonation i am, the areas i was asked this in, i was under no illusion about the person's political view, my answer.....neither i'm cosmopolitan

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law.

i agree that they must all be prosecuted however that means all .

On the say of panorama !

" this terror group" what terror group

Let's spend millions on something that could be imagination

Proof , evidence

Or just something that suits a political view !

Your bias I would think is clear for all to see

Trial by panorama

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's done is done, no squabbling can undo it FACT

having lived here all my life i can tell you the vast majority of yoinger generations have no interest in this, why hate somebody for a political view and things that happened long ago.

Why should we have no opinion because we live on UK main land Warrington Guildford and Birmingham to name but three places of murder

And you find it hilarious we have an opinion !

just saying, we can all have chips on our shoulders if we look far enough back in history

I'm all for stopping the tit for tat and I'd agree with you that its now to do with crime and the financial gain

Most people want peace and prosperity

Who wants to look over there shoulder every day in fear

Some Posters on this thread seem to have a political axe to grind where justice would be secondary

I wasn't knocking you

I disagreed with the first part of your thread

For the most part I'm sure it's correct

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law.

i agree that they must all be prosecuted however that means all .

On the say of panorama !

" this terror group" what terror group

Let's spend millions on something that could be imagination

Proof , evidence

Or just something that suits a political view !

Your bias I would think is clear for all to see

Trial by panorama

The joy of facts is that by their very nature they are unbiased. Your ignorance of these facts does not make the falsehoods. Educate yourself.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Anyone who commits murder or sanctions it should be prosecuted. ANYONE! The law of the land is for all. We can't pick and choose what laws we obey.

If this is true, then they CPS should act. They are no different to any other murderers in my opinion, and they should certainly not be above the law.

i agree that they must all be prosecuted however that means all .

On the say of panorama !

" this terror group" what terror group

Let's spend millions on something that could be imagination

Proof , evidence

Or just something that suits a political view !

Your bias I would think is clear for all to see

Trial by panorama

The joy of facts is that by their very nature they are unbiased. Your ignorance of these facts does not make the falsehoods. Educate yourself. "

You bias shines like a beacon !

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's done is done, no squabbling can undo it FACT

having lived here all my life i can tell you the vast majority of yoinger generations have no interest in this, why hate somebody for a political view and things that happened long ago.

Why should we have no opinion because we live on UK main land Warrington Guildford and Birmingham to name but three places of murder

And you find it hilarious we have an opinion !

just saying, we can all have chips on our shoulders if we look far enough back in history

I'm all for stopping the tit for tat and I'd agree with you that its now to do with crime and the financial gain

Most people want peace and prosperity

Who wants to look over there shoulder every day in fear

Some Posters on this thread seem to have a political axe to grind where justice would be secondary

I wasn't knocking you

I disagreed with the first part of your thread

For the most part I'm sure it's correct

lol its cool, i know you weren't

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

You bias shines like a beacon ! "

I can only admit defeat in the face of such persuasive argument.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's done is done, no squabbling can undo it FACT

having lived here all my life i can tell you the vast majority of yoinger generations have no interest in this, why hate somebody for a political view and things that happened long ago.

why is it hilarious that people who do not live in either eire & northern Ireland can't pass comment on it.

perhaps some of the other posters may have been personally affected by the troubles by either serving out there or having family ties to not only the north but also Dublin and the border counties or perhaps they may have seen the carnage on the streets of the England like Birmingham guildford London Manchester etc or were outraged by the events at enniskillen or perhaps it may be that whilst a certain G.Adams sits there condemning all and sundry for their past he is reluctant to talk about his.

or perhaps its all of the above.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Adams is reluctant to talk about his past because he knows he can't answer questions about how his brother, Liam, raped his (Liam's) daughter.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

& that tyrant Thatcher can't be heard either - for the flames!

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"& that tyrant Thatcher can't be heard either - for the flames!"

The story goes that, post Brighton, some of Thatchers cabinet were keen to let the Ulster people shoot and blow each other up, then go in and sweep up the mess.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

A bigger mess could have been avoided if the Brighton job was done properly; - Britain, Ireland, - everyone would've prospered!

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"A bigger mess could have been avoided if the Brighton job was done properly; - Britain, Ireland, - everyone would've prospered! "

got to say that whilst not a fan of thatcher, politics is best done via the ballot box not with a lump of semtex..

its equally wrong as killing innocents..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A bigger mess could have been avoided if the Brighton job was done properly; - Britain, Ireland, - everyone would've prospered!

got to say that whilst not a fan of thatcher, politics is best done via the ballot box not with a lump of semtex..

its equally wrong as killing innocents.. "

Agreed - but after seeing that last night - & to be honest, I new about these murder squads many moons ago, - it certainly puts Brighton in to perspective, eh!

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

IF these 'murder squads' existed, you have to conclude they weren't very good.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A bigger mess could have been avoided if the Brighton job was done properly; - Britain, Ireland, - everyone would've prospered! "

the one thing thatcher did was to stop the funding from the usa.

she all but defeated the IRA as they had no money, no arms and their high command was either infiltrated, neutralized or behind bars.

the IRA later admitted this and this bought them to the negotiating table although it came to fruition on labours watch.

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By *ollie_JCouple over a year ago

London

"IF these 'murder squads' existed, you have to conclude they weren't very good."

True but not how you think

The job of 14 Int (after the MRF debacle) was intelligence gathering , if they had a firefight their cover was blown, so not much use for furthering gathering...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's done is done, no squabbling can undo it FACT

having lived here all my life i can tell you the vast majority of yoinger generations have no interest in this, why hate somebody for a political view and things that happened long ago.

why is it hilarious that people who do not live in either eire & northern Ireland can't pass comment on it.

or perhaps its all of the above."

To be fair my first point was badly worded, i've just got used to people who know very little or have biase one way or the other spoutin on about Ireland and ot ticks me off. I jumped the gun on that but i stand by the rest of my points. For Ireland to be free of conflict, truly free. Everybody must take their chip off their shoulder, leave old grievances behind amd begin to talk to one another without political or personal agenda. Would knowing whether the british army coluded with the paramilitaries or knowing who aul Martin sanctioned for

a visit from the woolen faces help N.Ireland move forward? I don't see how tbh.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A bigger mess could have been avoided if the Brighton job was done properly; - Britain, Ireland, - everyone would've prospered! "

The usual suspects , I knew you would bring Thatcher into it taken longer than I thought though

So you want to take people to The Hague for war crimes but quite happy to see elected members of parliament murdered

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

Truth and reconciliation, without punishment doesn't seem to have done South Africa any good.

Once you get outside the cities it's as bloody as ever.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's done is done, no squabbling can undo it FACT

having lived here all my life i can tell you the vast majority of yoinger generations have no interest in this, why hate somebody for a political view and things that happened long ago.

why is it hilarious that people who do not live in either eire & northern Ireland can't pass comment on it.

or perhaps its all of the above.

a visit from the woolen faces help N.Ireland move forward? I don't see how tbh.

A fair view in my opinion

It's something that has dragged on for far to long and cost too many people far to much

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Truth and reconciliation, without punishment doesn't seem to have done South Africa any good.

Once you get outside the cities it's as bloody as ever."

It's not so good in the cities

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A bigger mess could have been avoided if the Brighton job was done properly; - Britain, Ireland, - everyone would've prospered!

The usual suspects , I knew you would bring Thatcher into it taken longer than I thought though

So you want to take people to The Hague for war crimes but quite happy to see elected members of parliament murdered

"
oh, perhaps you should look up the word karma as well as your history ffs!!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What's done is done, no squabbling can undo it FACT

having lived here all my life i can tell you the vast majority of yoinger generations have no interest in this, why hate somebody for a political view and things that happened long ago.

why is it hilarious that people who do not live in either eire & northern Ireland can't pass comment on it.

or perhaps its all of the above.

a visit from the woolen faces help N.Ireland move forward? I don't see how tbh.

fair point

everyone needs to lets sleeping dogs lie or everyone involved needs to face up their past indiscretions and accept the punishments that the are given.

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By *thwalescplCouple over a year ago

brecon

So, from this thread, what have we learned?

There have been posts from people who lived through the troubles, and the aftermath.

There have no doubt been posts from ex or serving members of the Armed forces.

And posts from all sections and persuasions of society.

General consensus seems to be that we all hope for enduring peace, and that forgiveness can be generally offered and accepted.

But... I think we all realise that, unfortunately, the human race is a flawed animal, and no matter how many reasonable voices call out for peace and harmony, there will always be a small minority that, for whatever reason, want to sow discord.

I propose to emulate Lennon, and have a "Love-in".... ladies, form a queue, I am but one man, but by damn I'll do my best!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A bigger mess could have been avoided if the Brighton job was done properly; - Britain, Ireland, - everyone would've prospered!

the one thing thatcher did was to stop the funding from the usa.

she all but defeated the IRA as they had no money, no arms and their high command was either infiltrated, neutralized or behind bars.

the IRA later admitted this and this bought them to the negotiating table although it came to fruition on labours watch.

Its no fliuke that it was done under labour's watch - it couldn't have happened with the far right Tory's in power, no way! Like I said before, the peace process could have been much sooner & better for us all!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A bigger mess could have been avoided if the Brighton job was done properly; - Britain, Ireland, - everyone would've prospered!

The usual suspects , I knew you would bring Thatcher into it taken longer than I thought though

So you want to take people to The Hague for war crimes but quite happy to see elected members of parliament murdered

oh, perhaps you should look up the word karma as well as your history ffs!!!"

I'm calm think you may of lost it tho

History , enlighten me ! "Brighton job done properly " you didn't mean kill thatcher , elected member of parliament

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A bigger mess could have been avoided if the Brighton job was done properly; - Britain, Ireland, - everyone would've prospered!

The usual suspects , I knew you would bring Thatcher into it taken longer than I thought though

So you want to take people to The Hague for war crimes but quite happy to see elected members of parliament murdered

oh, perhaps you should look up the word karma as well as your history ffs!!!

I'm calm think you may of lost it tho

History , enlighten me ! "Brighton job done properly " you didn't mean kill thatcher , elected member of parliament "
read the op!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Its called karma!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Its called karma! "
there is no history in the op

You let your politics get in the way of a reasoned view

You preach justice but advocate murder

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So, from this thread, what have we learned?

There have been posts from people who lived through the troubles, and the aftermath.

There have no doubt been posts from ex or serving members of the Armed forces.

And posts from all sections and persuasions of society.

General consensus seems to be that we all hope for enduring peace, and that forgiveness can be generally offered and accepted.

I propose to emulate Lennon, and have a "Love-in".... ladies, form a queue, I am but one man, but by damn I'll do my best!

most sensible idea i've heard on this thtead

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So, from this thread, what have we learned?

There have been posts from people who lived through the troubles, and the aftermath.

There have no doubt been posts from ex or serving members of the Armed forces.

And posts from all sections and persuasions of society.

General consensus seems to be that we all hope for enduring peace, and that forgiveness can be generally offered and accepted.

I propose to emulate Lennon, and have a "Love-in".... ladies, form a queue, I am but one man, but by damn I'll do my best!

most sensible idea i've heard on this thtead "

i agree

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"So, from this thread, what have we learned?

There have been posts from people who lived through the troubles, and the aftermath.

There have no doubt been posts from ex or serving members of the Armed forces.

And posts from all sections and persuasions of society.

General consensus seems to be that we all hope for enduring peace, and that forgiveness can be generally offered and accepted.

I propose to emulate Lennon, and have a "Love-in".... ladies, form a queue, I am but one man, but by damn I'll do my best!

most sensible idea i've heard on this thtead

i agree

ladies you heard the man, orderly queues please

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

"I think the point that is being made that yes the republicans and the loyalists did kill innocent people, so did the forces of the government of the day who were supposed to be keeping law and order

Totall agree our soldiers Where there to protect the ppl,I just think whoevere sanctioned the cold blooded murder of innocent ppl should be held to account ."

Like the leaders of all the paramilitary groups as well, perhaps?

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By *andS66Couple over a year ago

Derby

Wrap in as many words as you like... The britsh government and their army knowingly killed innocent people. "

As did the IRA and all the other paramilitaries - of whichever 'side'.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"if anyone watched this looks like our goverment condoned murder,I wonder if those responsible for approving this will be brought to justice?

If you weren't around in the 70's and serving in Ireland then don't be too quick to judge, as i was there and if you believe everything you hear on panorama then more fool you

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

First off let me say I served in NI in the late 70's early 80's so have first hand experience of the place...

Secondly I should say I am a first generation Irish catholic immigrant who has historical ties to the IRB and IRA (my grandfather was a funding member of the IRA and fraught in the 1916 Easter rising. As a result I have very mixed feelings about NI and all the Irish troubles going back centuries.

Having said that the facts of the most resent troubles are really quite simple.

1/ The British Army were deployed to NI in 1969 to stop the under educated poor Protestant "loyalest" majority from killing and burning out the Catholic "republican" under educated poor minority.

2/ The IRA did not like having British soldiers protecting Catholics and tried to set up no go areas supplanting the British State. The British Army were ordered to stop this...

In the resulting conflict Catholics died, and as a result IRA got shot and killed and the poor and under educated Catholic areas came to hate the British army.

3/ The "loyalist" terrorists saw this and believed it was proof that the Army was on its side and would allow it to kill even more Catholics. When the Army had killed a few of them the same poor and under educated Protestant areas also ended up hating the Army too.

4/ And these are possibly the most important points:

a) Armies do not make good police forces, and whenever soldiers are used to police civilians there will be tragedies.

b) Considering how fragile the peace is in NI why are the powers that be opening up old but not healed wounds?

Exactly what is behind the public suggestion that all that participated in sectarian killings before the Good Friday agreement be given amnesty and this panorama program?

Who will gain by relighting bonfire?

The one thing I know for sure is it will not be the poor of NI Catholic or Protestant.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"First off let me say I served in NI in the late 70's early 80's so have first hand experience of the place...

Having said that the facts of the most resent troubles are really quite simple.

1/ The British Army were deployed to NI in 1969 to stop the under educated poor Protestant "loyalest" majority from killing and burning out the Catholic "republican" under educated poor minority.

2/ The IRA did not like having British soldiers protecting Catholics and tried to set up no go areas supplanting the British State. The British Army were ordered to stop this...

In the resulting conflict Catholics died, and as a result IRA got shot and killed and the poor and under educated Catholic areas came to hate the British army.

4/ And these are possibly the most important points:

a) Armies do not make good police forces, and whenever soldiers are used to police civilians there will be tragedies.

b) Considering how fragile the peace is in NI why are the powers that be opening up old but not healed wounds?

Exactly what is behind the public suggestion that all that participated in sectarian killings before the Good Friday agreement be given amnesty and this panorama program?

Who will gain by relighting bonfire?

The one thing I know for sure is it will not be the poor of NI Catholic or Protestant. "

Beautiful sentiment, and if love it to be true. However, it ignores the reality that the army trained and armed loyalist killers, such as the most notorious sectarian killer of them all, the jackal. He and his group were given carte blanche to kill not IRA members but innocent catholics. We all know the IRA killed innocent civilians, and we know the loyalist groups killed innocent civilians, but the tone here seems to be that the army never did, unless it was a complete accident. The facts are out there, but it would appear that it's easier to live in blissful ignorance. It would appear from some comments that there is no possibility of being Irish and innocent.

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By *ucsparkMan over a year ago

dudley

"if anyone watched this looks like our goverment condoned murder,I wonder if those responsible for approving this will be brought to justice?

And Does that make it acceptable to u When innocent ppl were murdered,that makes us no better than the terrorist.

You are totally right, it does not make it right or morally acceptable. But when fighting terrorist you have to be willing to get your hands dirty and fight on their level. Never nice but a fact of fighting terrorist

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"First off let me say I served in NI in the late 70's early 80's so have first hand experience of the place...

Having said that the facts of the most resent troubles are really quite simple.

1/ The British Army were deployed to NI in 1969 to stop the under educated poor Protestant "loyalest" majority from killing and burning out the Catholic "republican" under educated poor minority.

2/ The IRA did not like having British soldiers protecting Catholics and tried to set up no go areas supplanting the British State. The British Army were ordered to stop this...

In the resulting conflict Catholics died, and as a result IRA got shot and killed and the poor and under educated Catholic areas came to hate the British army.

4/ And these are possibly the most important points:

a) Armies do not make good police forces, and whenever soldiers are used to police civilians there will be tragedies.

b) Considering how fragile the peace is in NI why are the powers that be opening up old but not healed wounds?

Exactly what is behind the public suggestion that all that participated in sectarian killings before the Good Friday agreement be given amnesty and this panorama program?

Who will gain by relighting bonfire?

The one thing I know for sure is it will not be the poor of NI Catholic or Protestant.

im sorry but some of your last comment is way off the mark.

mistakes were made on all sides however i will say that those who choose to live by the sword for whatever reason it may be drugs, prostitution, extortion, money laundering, gun running or a free Irish state, then those people choose to die by it.

those people dragged innocent people from their homes and executed them based on hearsay.

those people executed people and dumped their bodies by the side of the road based on hearsay.

those people made, planted and detonated on average 5 bombs a day in the middle of streets, shops and even a remembrance day parade amongst innocent hard working Irish people.

some of those people who planned, organised, delegated and ordered others to carry out these acts are now the same people who want their pasts forgotten about whilst pushing for the pasts of others to be dragged up.

i have said her name on more than one occasion and i will say it again when the then brigade commander of belfast Gerry Adams answers questions about his involvement in the abduction and execution of Jean McConville a Irish mother of seven kids then in my opinion you will never have true peace because he wants others to pay for their crimes yet he will not pay for his.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

All sides executed innocent people - but only one bunch of murderers was sanctioned by a UN registered state!

Putin, Saddam .............

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"First off let me say I served in NI in the late 70's early 80's so have first hand experience of the place...

Having said that the facts of the most resent troubles are really quite simple.

1/ The British Army were deployed to NI in 1969 to stop the under educated poor Protestant "loyalest" majority from killing and burning out the Catholic "republican" under educated poor minority.

2/ The IRA did not like having British soldiers protecting Catholics and tried to set up no go areas supplanting the British State. The British Army were ordered to stop this...

In the resulting conflict Catholics died, and as a result IRA got shot and killed and the poor and under educated Catholic areas came to hate the British army.

4/ And these are possibly the most important points:

a) Armies do not make good police forces, and whenever soldiers are used to police civilians there will be tragedies.

b) Considering how fragile the peace is in NI why are the powers that be opening up old but not healed wounds?

Exactly what is behind the public suggestion that all that participated in sectarian killings before the Good Friday agreement be given amnesty and this panorama program?

Who will gain by relighting bonfire?

The one thing I know for sure is it will not be the poor of NI Catholic or Protestant.

im sorry but some of your last comment is way off the mark.

those people dragged innocent people from their homes and executed them based on hearsay.

those people executed people and dumped their bodies by the side of the road based on hearsay.

those people made, planted and detonated on average 5 bombs a day in the middle of streets, shops and even a remembrance day parade amongst innocent hard working Irish people.

Let the police arrest him then, and the courts can decide. That doesn't trouble me in the slightest. The point remains that the British army was involved, through various murky agencies, in the murder of innocent civilians, and I for one would like to know what the agenda was, and who sanctioned it. Who was in charge?

It's not good enough to say they must've been up to something dodgy or they wouldn't have been shot.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"...........

It's not good enough to say they must've been up to something dodgy or they wouldn't have been shot. "

Yep. That'd be like saying being blown up whilst being pushed down a Warrington street in your buggy means you must have been up to something dodgy.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"...........

It's not good enough to say they must've been up to something dodgy or they wouldn't have been shot.

Yep. That'd be like saying being blown up whilst being pushed down a Warrington street in your buggy means you must have been up to something dodgy."

Yep, my point exactly.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

it was a war with our hands tied behind our backs ,when we lost lives we never got people turning out watching our coffins coming off the planes ,it was hid away to a 30sec mention on the 10 oclock news, so sometime the rules were broken

that's war

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Civil war - but no government would accept that label - yet they censored our media as if it was happening elsewhere in the world!

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

" Beautiful sentiment, and if love it to be true. However, it ignores the reality that the army trained and armed loyalist killers, such as the most notorious sectarian killer of them all, the jackal."

Actually no I ignore nothing, I just did not bother mentioning things I consider to be red herrings.

Seeing as you bring up the training of "Loyalists" I will happily agree and say we (that is the British Armed Forces [mainly army]) trained many "Loyalist" killers. However in exactly the same way we trained many "Republican" killers.

All of them got their training in the same way. They went into a recruiting office signed up, swore their oath of allegiance, went through selection and started basic training. Then round week 10/11 just before they lost "the right to leave" at week 12 they handed in their notice payed their £20 to buy themselves out and left having had 8 weeks of the best weapons training in the world! Anyone involved with training knew about this and used to watch them coming over learning how to kill and then fucking off back over the water to join whichever faction they were attracted to! Not many came to the commandos or the army infantry regiments (it was too dangerous because we would remember their faces) but we all knew that they went into the cores especially the RAOC and REME (there was less chance of getting "clocked" in riots etc by guys that went through training at the same time as them). Because core soldiers didn't patrol the streets day in day out.

So if you are going to make accusations please get the whole story.

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By *ollie_JCouple over a year ago

London

In fact the chief interrogator/torturer of the IRA was ex RM

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

Actually no I ignore nothing, I just did not bother mentioning things I consider to be red herrings.

So if you are going to make accusations please get the whole story.

I wasn't talking about lads joining the army to get some weapons training. I was talking about guys like Robin Jackson who were recruited by various murky undercover groups. There's enough information in the public domain about him and his companions in the Portadown UVF if you have any interest in looking into what was going on. There's also plenty of info in the public domain about the funding by the military to procure weapons in South Africa, and about the numerous innocent victims that were murdered by these same weapons and others connected to the military. It's not just speculation either, before you mention that.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"In fact the chief interrogator/torturer of the IRA was ex RM"

Wasn't there a clause entitling any of the Bhoys killed in action to 72 virgins and unlimited supplies of stout?

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

" I wasn't talking about lads joining the army to get some weapons training."

No, I noticed that. You are out to blame anyone and everyone other than your favored faction opening old wounds and continuing the cycle of hatred.

I doubt that we could ever agree about anything to do with NI so I think that I will just repeat my final statement of my first post.

" Considering how fragile the peace is in NI why are the powers that be opening up old but not healed wounds?

Exactly what is behind the public suggestion that all that participated in sectarian killings before the Good Friday agreement be given amnesty and this panorama program?

Who will gain by relighting bonfire?

The one thing I know for sure is it will not be the poor of NI Catholic or Protestant."

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

The suggestion of dropping all prosecutions didn't relate to sectarian killings, but all offences related to the Troubles, and came from the attorney general, who has received zero support from any side. I'm not sure how that ties in with the panorama programme though. I think you have misinterpreted some of what I've said. I would never dream of defending anyone guilty of the atrocities that were perpetrated the people of Ireland, England, or further afield. My main point is that if you think the British military were the honest broker caught in the middle of two warring factions, you are grievously mistaken.

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By *illwill69uMan over a year ago

moston

"The suggestion of dropping all prosecutions didn't relate to sectarian killings, but all offences related to the Troubles, and came from the attorney general, who has received zero support from any side. I'm not sure how that ties in with the panorama programme though. I think you have misinterpreted some of what I've said. I would never dream of defending anyone guilty of the atrocities that were perpetrated the people of Ireland, England, or further afield. My main point is that if you think the British military were the honest broker caught in the middle of two warring factions, you are grievously mistaken. "
Again no, i think at the outset in 69 they were honest brokers as can be seen in archive footage of them sleeping on the streets and being fad and watered by the Catholics and Protestants they were defending. Then the killers on both sides targeted the Army and as soldiers are trained to be aggressive and their training took over and 30 years of pain for the poor of NI followed.

The British armed forces recruit from all over the UK and further afield of course it recruits people that are bigoted and have their own agendas. And anti papist Irish (I am Catholic Irish by extraction by the way) probably tops the list so there will always be those in the UK establishment who will help any group that is bent on violence against Irish Catholics, but they are not the majority or even a sizable minority just as the killers in NI are only the smallest of a fraction of the Irish population.

As I have said twice I wonder who benefits from de-stabilizing NI?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Lets just practice what we preach/ed to Saddam, Bosnia,etc & do the RIGHT thing, - and hand this whole thing over to the UN. otherwise we're just laughable when our pm talks to any other country about human rights!!!

We're not worth fuck all in the world untill we do so!! LETS DO THE RIGHT THING - NOW!!!

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"Lets just practice what we preach/ed to Saddam, Bosnia,etc & do the RIGHT thing, - and hand this whole thing over to the UN. otherwise we're just laughable when our pm talks to any other country about human rights!!!

We're not worth fuck all in the world untill we do so!! LETS DO THE RIGHT THING - NOW!!!

I think we all know this simply isn't going to happen.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"The suggestion of dropping all prosecutions didn't relate to sectarian killings, but all offences related to the Troubles, and came from the attorney general, who has received zero support from any side. I'm not sure how that ties in with the panorama programme though. I think you have misinterpreted some of what I've said. I would never dream of defending anyone guilty of the atrocities that were perpetrated the people of Ireland, England, or further afield. My main point is that if you think the British military were the honest broker caught in the middle of two warring factions, you are grievously mistaken. Again no, i think at the outset in 69 they were honest brokers as can be seen in archive footage of them sleeping on the streets and being fad and watered by the Catholics and Protestants they were defending. Then the killers on both sides targeted the Army and as soldiers are trained to be aggressive and their training took over and 30 years of pain for the poor of NI followed.

As I have said twice I wonder who benefits from de-stabilizing NI? "

I hear what you're saying, but the soldiers in the street were not really what I was getting at. The murky intelligence groups, if which there were many, were running agents in every camp twisting and turning things to facilitate their own agenda, and making targets of the uniforms that got sent out to pick up the pieces. Do these people still exist? Are they still in the background, manipulating things? The provisional IRA didn't actually exist when the British army arrived in Belfast, by the way.

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By *nnyMan over a year ago

Glasgow

"......... The provisional IRA didn't actually exist when the British army arrived in Belfast, by the way. "

I believe they were brought over, flat-pack, in a truck from Aldershot.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"......... The provisional IRA didn't actually exist when the British army arrived in Belfast, by the way.

I believe they were brought over, flat-pack, in a truck from Aldershot."

Truth exists; only falsehood needs to be invented!

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