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child protection ?
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By *eavenNhell OP Couple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
one has to ask in the age where we have a computer system that can tell the police/vosa weather a car is taxed MOTd and insured instantly at the roadside why is there no similar system linking the social services police schools and doctors to flag up when a child is repeatedly showing warning signs ? |
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"The data protection act makes this difficult."
Part of its' design was to make it easier to share information, "joined up thinking" to minimize problems. Of course, it relies on humans, who err. Staff in schools are trained to look for signs of abuse and have a duty of care to report such suspicions to their child protection named person. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The data protection act makes this difficult.
Part of its' design was to make it easier to share information, "joined up thinking" to minimize problems. Of course, it relies on humans, who err. Staff in schools are trained to look for signs of abuse and have a duty of care to report such suspicions to their child protection named person. "
It was supposed to but its peoples assumptions and suspicions not facts there should be easier ways to protect but people are wary without facts what data they share as it could be wrongly seen as malicious. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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For one simple reason, the systems and processes are designed to serve those working in the industry, not to produce what any right minded individual would see as the desired output.
When the shit hits the fan, how many of those involved do the right thing and resign, nevermind get sacked?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It would be a start if the bodies/indiiduals responsible knew what a "fact" was and how to go about establishing one.
And be held criminally liable for deliberately misreporting same. |
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It's been trialed in some authorities with a central database of all children but it was stopped as parents complained about it!!
After several serious case reviews there is a focus on joined up working and the latest are MASH teams (multi agency service hubs) that work the early prevention stuff. I like the idea and just hope that it works in practical terms |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
For one simple reason, the systems and processes are designed to serve those working in the industry, not to produce what any right minded individual would see as the desired output.
When the shit hits the fan, how many of those involved do the right thing and resign, nevermind get sacked?
"
Absolute Bull |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
For one simple reason, the systems and processes are designed to serve those working in the industry, not to produce what any right minded individual would see as the desired output.
When the shit hits the fan, how many of those involved do the right thing and resign, nevermind get sacked?
Absolute Bull"
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"The data protection act makes this difficult.
Part of its' design was to make it easier to share information, "joined up thinking" to minimize problems. Of course, it relies on humans, who err. Staff in schools are trained to look for signs of abuse and have a duty of care to report such suspicions to their child protection named person.
It was supposed to but its peoples assumptions and suspicions not facts there should be easier ways to protect but people are wary without facts what data they share as it
could be wrongly seen as malicious. "
There is a difference in this context between factual data and information. There are strict rules around the Data Protection Act and subsequent amendments. If 100 people reported suspicions of child protection issues and 99 were false, it would be worth it for the 1 if the child was protected. In reality, most reports of suspicions of child protection are not malicious even though some may prove to be groundless. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If services/the general public rang issues into the duty social care desk either anonymously or not, the information would be shared. Members of the public/professionals are always able to seek advice from the duty social worker in every local authority if they are concerned about any childs welfare. This is all recorded. Meaning that if multiple, concerning enquiries are made, this should hopefully spark action |
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"If services/the general public rang issues into the duty social care desk either anonymously or not, the information would be shared. Members of the public/professionals are always able to seek advice from the duty social worker in every local authority if they are concerned about any childs welfare. This is all recorded. Meaning that if multiple, concerning enquiries are made, this should hopefully spark action"
Sadly that's the problem not a lot of people actually report concerns because 'it's not their concern'!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The problem yet again is that social workers etc do not have enough power it is really difficult for them to gain access to a child's home or gain a court order to have a child removed from the family home unless the parents agree to work with them. Also it doesn't matter how many people are involved social, teachers other parents you are only allowed to report proven facts its a crap system which the government should change and quickly |
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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago
dirtybigbadsgirlville |
"The problem yet again is that social workers etc do not have enough power it is really difficult for them to gain access to a child's home or gain a court order to have a child removed from the family home unless the parents agree to work with them. Also it doesn't matter how many people are involved social, teachers other parents you are only allowed to report proven facts its a crap system which the government should change and quickly"
There is the key, the parents can be and are in a lot of cases hugely problematic.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If you have an accident or need to be taken into hospital, hospitals can not access your medical records, in your drs surgery.
This can be fatal, The only way they can get information, is if you have been in that hospital before.
Completely ridiculous. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"The problem yet again is that social workers etc do not have enough power it is really difficult for them to gain access to a child's home or gain a court order to have a child removed from the family home unless the parents agree to work with them. Also it doesn't matter how many people are involved social, teachers other parents you are only allowed to report proven facts its a crap system which the government should change and quickly"
It seems crazy that if your landlord can force entry to your home to carry out a gas safety inspection that social workers, accompanied by cops, can't do the same to safeguard kids. |
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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago
dirtybigbadsgirlville |
"The problem yet again is that social workers etc do not have enough power it is really difficult for them to gain access to a child's home or gain a court order to have a child removed from the family home unless the parents agree to work with them. Also it doesn't matter how many people are involved social, teachers other parents you are only allowed to report proven facts its a crap system which the government should change and quickly
It seems crazy that if your landlord can force entry to your home to carry out a gas safety inspection that social workers, accompanied by cops, can't do the same to safeguard kids."
I totally agree......the world is crazy.  |
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"The problem yet again is that social workers etc do not have enough power it is really difficult for them to gain access to a child's home or gain a court order to have a child removed from the family home unless the parents agree to work with them. Also it doesn't matter how many people are involved social, teachers other parents you are only allowed to report proven facts its a crap system which the government should change and quickly
It seems crazy that if your landlord can force entry to your home to carry out a gas safety inspection that social workers, accompanied by cops, can't do the same to safeguard kids."
Actually the cops can force entry under a Police Protection Order but it's a high threshold to get one. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"The problem yet again is that social workers etc do not have enough power it is really difficult for them to gain access to a child's home or gain a court order to have a child removed from the family home unless the parents agree to work with them. Also it doesn't matter how many people are involved social, teachers other parents you are only allowed to report proven facts its a crap system which the government should change and quickly
It seems crazy that if your landlord can force entry to your home to carry out a gas safety inspection that social workers, accompanied by cops, can't do the same to safeguard kids.
Actually the cops can force entry under a Police Protection Order but it's a high threshold to get one. "
The 'threshold' for gas safety is 'has it been done in the last year + a short period of time of allow the tenant to facilitate access voluntarily.
It won't save all kids, it may not save any, but it could concentrate some parents' minds. |
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I have to say social services do a fantastic job with the pressure they are under and budget cuts and red tape.....I had a case where I had huge safeguarding concerns and SS acted on it and the child Will be removed once born....They get it wrong at times and certainly pay the price for their mistakes.... |
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By *obbygggMan
over a year ago
Birmingham |
Unfortunately in many cases the child is already known to Social Services (see Bham's appalling record,yet again in the news) and basically do not do their job.I fail to see why a teacher cannot ring Social Services and they then ring the police.Is this not allowed?And surely Hospitald have the right to inform the police of suspicious or a pattern of serious injuries to a child. |
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Strange thing in special schools like the school my girl goes to they are trained to pick up on the slightest thing
If those positions had been in place in my secondary school my earlier life might have been quite different
I'm lucky I have got past a lot of that took many years though
D x |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
Taking _isscheekychops point - I wonder how many babies remain under the radar from the very beginning.
A single woman gets pregnant from a one night stand, has a straightforward pregnancy and confinement at home, never visits a hospital or a health visitor and goes on to kill the baby - and nobody notices.
How often might that have happened? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Trouble is the pendulum always seems to swing to extremes - from families living in fear across to the current situation of bending over backwards to keep children with their parents even if they're the worst possible people they could be with.
Wonder how far it will swing across this time. |
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"Unfortunately in many cases the child is already known to Social Services (see Bham's appalling record,yet again in the news) and basically do not do their job.I fail to see why a teacher cannot ring Social Services and they then ring the police.Is this not allowed?And surely Hospitald have the right to inform the police of suspicious or a pattern of serious injuries to a
child."
In fairness Birmingham city council was hit hard with budget cuts and for the largest LA its going to have a huge negative impact of services. |
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"The problem yet again is that social workers etc do not have enough power it is really difficult for them to gain access to a child's home or gain a court order to have a child removed from the family home unless the parents agree to work with them. Also it doesn't matter how many people are involved social, teachers other parents you are only allowed to report proven facts its a crap system which the government should change and quickly
It seems crazy that if your landlord can force entry to your home to carry out a gas safety inspection that social workers, accompanied by cops, can't do the same to safeguard kids.
Actually the cops can force entry under a Police Protection Order but it's a high threshold to get one.
The 'threshold' for gas safety is 'has it been done in the last year + a short period of time of allow the tenant to facilitate access voluntarily.
It won't save all kids, it may not save any, but it could concentrate some parents' minds."
allowing entry for gas check will be in your tenancy agreement so by signing it you are giving consent...... the make a claim sue evey one attitude these days makes social workers jobs very difficult an yes in the news there are horrifically tragic cases but no one cares to report the 1000s helped an protected. ...... crap fact of the day, legally the RSPCA can enter any home after dark if they think an animal is being abused ( but that they ever do)
xx |
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"Taking _isscheekychops point - I wonder how many babies remain under the radar from the very beginning.
A single woman gets pregnant from a one night stand, has a straightforward pregnancy and confinement at home, never visits a hospital or a health visitor and goes on to kill the baby - and nobody notices.
How often might that have happened?"
Who knows as no one knows it's happened. In my experience pregnancies are hard to conceal completely and someone finds out eventually!! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Unfortunately in many cases the child is already known to Social Services (see Bham's appalling record,yet again in the news) and basically do not do their job.I fail to see why a teacher cannot ring Social Services and they then ring the police.Is this not allowed?And surely Hospitald have the right to inform the police of suspicious or a pattern of serious injuries to a
child.
In fairness Birmingham city council was hit hard with budget cuts and for the largest LA its going to have a huge negative impact of services. "
And in fairness, i'd wager that despite such cuts, the reward to Brum staff actually increased.
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By *obbygggMan
over a year ago
Birmingham |
"Unfortunately in many cases the child is already known to Social Services (see Bham's appalling record,yet again in the news) and basically do not do their job.I fail to see why a teacher cannot ring Social Services and they then ring the police.Is this not allowed?And surely Hospitald have the right to inform the police of suspicious or a pattern of serious injuries to a
child.
In fairness Birmingham city council was hit hard with budget cuts and for the largest LA its going to have a huge negative impact of services.
And in fairness, i'd wager that despite such cuts, the reward to Brum staff actually increased.
This is not a recent thing by any means and certainly well before any cuts.
"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The problem yet again is that social workers etc do not have enough power it is really difficult for them to gain access to a child's home or gain a court order to have a child removed from the family home unless the parents agree to work with them. Also it doesn't matter how many people are involved social, teachers other parents you are only allowed to report proven facts its a crap system which the government should change and quickly
It seems crazy that if your landlord can force entry to your home to carry out a gas safety inspection that social workers, accompanied by cops, can't do the same to safeguard kids.
Actually the cops can force entry under a Police Protection Order but it's a high threshold to get one.
The 'threshold' for gas safety is 'has it been done in the last year + a short period of time of allow the tenant to facilitate access voluntarily.
It won't save all kids, it may not save any, but it could concentrate some parents' minds.
allowing entry for gas check will be in your tenancy agreement so by signing it you are giving consent...... the make a claim sue evey one attitude these days makes social workers jobs very difficult an yes in the news there are horrifically tragic cases but no one cares to report the 1000s helped an protected. ...... crap fact of the day, legally the RSPCA can enter any home after dark if they think an animal is being abused ( but that they ever do)
xx"
Further crappy fact, the RSPCA have virtually unfettered* access to Police data bases that other agencies can only dream of.
* at a price of course, to APCO which apparently is a private body.
Who says the system isn't broken? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Unfortunately in many cases the child is already known to Social Services (see Bham's appalling record,yet again in the news) and basically do not do their job.I fail to see why a teacher cannot ring Social Services and they then ring the police.Is this not allowed?And surely Hospitald have the right to inform the police of suspicious or a pattern of serious injuries to a
child.
In fairness Birmingham city council was hit hard with budget cuts and for the largest LA its going to have a huge negative impact of services. "
Lets get this right, it isn't about social services, its about each of us, standing up and being counted, its about care, and not being too busy to notice and offer help, its about each and every one of us taking responsibility for our actions, not expecting someone else to do it for us, a bit like the report feature here, report this, report that, expect someone else to sort things out.
If you see something, suspect something, grow a pair of balls and do something about it, don't just expect someone else to, Open your eyes, open your hearts and take action, If each and everyone of us did our duty as a human being, abuse would be a thing of the past, and the millions spent on policing it could be spent on education.
Most abuse is because of ignorance. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Unfortunately in many cases the child is already known to Social Services (see Bham's appalling record,yet again in the news) and basically do not do their job.I fail to see why a teacher cannot ring Social Services and they then ring the police.Is this not allowed?And surely Hospitald have the right to inform the police of suspicious or a pattern of serious injuries to a
child.
In fairness Birmingham city council was hit hard with budget cuts and for the largest LA its going to have a huge negative impact of services.
And in fairness, i'd wager that despite such cuts, the reward to Brum staff actually increased.
This is not a recent thing by any means and certainly well before any cuts.
"
Are you saying that individual staff costs are NOT increasing still? That they are now reducing? |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Unfortunately in many cases the child is already known to Social Services (see Bham's appalling record,yet again in the news) and basically do not do their job.I fail to see why a teacher cannot ring Social Services and they then ring the police.Is this not allowed?And surely Hospitald have the right to inform the police of suspicious or a pattern of serious injuries to a
child.
In fairness Birmingham city council was hit hard with budget cuts and for the largest LA its going to have a huge negative impact of services.
And in fairness, i'd wager that despite such cuts, the reward to Brum staff actually increased.
This is not a recent thing by any means and certainly well before any cuts.
Are you saying that individual staff costs are NOT increasing still? That they are now reducing? "
If you reduce staff number whilst increasing the workload the cost per individual staff will go up but it isn't in pay. |
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By *obbygggMan
over a year ago
Birmingham |
"Yeah but it's easier to snipe at others."
I'm sorry but those who are in the position of knowing about vulnerable/abused children have failed to do their jobs. They are aware. If I saw abuse then of course I'd act.The teachers see the kids as well. I don't.Every year that Dept gets awful ratings from Govt inspections. They don't try to deny it. They just trot out the old "lessons will be learned" while even more and more kids die. If they can't do the job they should leave and let people in who will.
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Police can force entry to prevent harm or crime... But they have to know that it is happening... I remember one of the worse cases in the news the child was in the flat being abused for weeks/months. Social services repeatedly called round to visit the child but no one answered the door... The whole time the child was alone in the flat and slowly dying... The system is over loaded. Secondly the people on here shouting the loudest about the lack of action would be the ones shouting the loudest that the police/social services had too much power if they didn't agree with the action taken... |
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By *obbygggMan
over a year ago
Birmingham |
"Police can force entry to prevent harm or crime... But they have to know that it is happening... I remember one of the worse cases in the news the child was in the flat being abused for weeks/months. Social services repeatedly called round to visit the child but no one answered the door... The whole time the child was alone in the flat and slowly dying... The system is over loaded. Secondly the people on here shouting the loudest about the lack of action would be the ones shouting the loudest that the police/social services had too much power if they didn't agree with the action taken..."
And you base the statement in your 2nd paragraph on what facts exactly?
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Police can force entry to prevent harm or crime... But they have to know that it is happening... I remember one of the worse cases in the news the child was in the flat being abused for weeks/months. Social services repeatedly called round to visit the child but no one answered the door... The whole time the child was alone in the flat and slowly dying... The system is over loaded. Secondly the people on here shouting the loudest about the lack of action would be the ones shouting the loudest that the police/social services had too much power if they didn't agree with the action taken...And you base the statement in your 2nd paragraph on what facts exactly?"
You can see paragraphs? Where? |
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By *obbygggMan
over a year ago
Birmingham |
"Police can force entry to prevent harm or crime... But they have to know that it is happening... I remember one of the worse cases in the news the child was in the flat being abused for weeks/months. Social services repeatedly called round to visit the child but no one answered the door... The whole time the child was alone in the flat and slowly dying... The system is over loaded. Secondly the people on here shouting the loudest about the lack of action would be the ones shouting the loudest that the police/social services had too much power if they didn't agree with the action taken...And you base the statement in your 2nd paragraph on what facts exactly?
You can see paragraphs? Where?"
lol. Should have said last sentence. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Yeah but it's easier to snipe at others.I'm sorry but those who are in the position of knowing about vulnerable/abused children have failed to do their jobs. They are aware. If I saw abuse then of course I'd act.The teachers see the kids as well. I don't.Every year that Dept gets awful ratings from Govt inspections. They don't try to deny it. They just trot out the old "lessons will be learned" while even more and more kids die. If they can't do the job they should leave and let people in who will. "
Like you?
The system needs changing for sure but I don't understand how you seem to believe people that enter social services don't care about people and that teachers can be held to account for every aspect of children's lives. |
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not long after I moved in to my house my eldest (she was about 3 then) had a massive seizure as I was getting her out of the car. I hadn't even got her in the house before the police turned up. when everything was sorted an she was settled Iwent an thanked my new neighbors, id rather they called the police an had it checked out than "turn a blind eye" it's actually a comfort to know that there are people round who will act on suspicion an keep their eyes open. if more people did those who do wrong would have no where to hide.
xx |
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By *emmefataleWoman
over a year ago
dirtybigbadsgirlville |
"not long after I moved in to my house my eldest (she was about 3 then) had a massive seizure as I was getting her out of the car. I hadn't even got her in the house before the police turned up. when everything was sorted an she was settled Iwent an thanked my new neighbors, id rather they called the police an had it checked out than "turn a blind eye" it's actually a comfort to know that there are people round who will act on suspicion an keep their eyes open. if more people did those who do wrong would have no where to hide.
xx"
You would say that though, those parents who do have something to hide would not welcome such intrusions.... |
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"Strange thing in special schools like the school my girl goes to they are trained to pick up on the slightest thing
D x
As far as I can tell all schools are trained in Child protection."
They are but sadly I've seen first hand that some teachers are too 'blinkered' to education and don't see it as part of their job  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If services/the general public rang issues into the duty social care desk either anonymously or not, the information would be shared. Members of the public/professionals are always able to seek advice from the duty social worker in every local authority if they are concerned about any childs welfare. This is all recorded. Meaning that if multiple, concerning enquiries are made, this should hopefully spark action
Sadly that's the problem not a lot of people actually report concerns because 'it's not their concern'!!"
Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. I met a nursery nurse from a very, how shall I say it, "diverse" area the other week on some safeguarding training who has never in 30 years made a social care referral. I know for a fact some of my caseload are attending her setting. When I challenged her that this seems an unlikely situation, she said "she doesn't like to spoil the relationship with parents"... Nursery are one of the main safeguards for the under 5s. I was astonished at her attitude. Safeguarding really is everybodies responsibility. |
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"If services/the general public rang issues into the duty social care desk either anonymously or not, the information would be shared. Members of the public/professionals are always able to seek advice from the duty social worker in every local authority if they are concerned about any childs welfare. This is all recorded. Meaning that if multiple, concerning enquiries are made, this should hopefully spark action
Sadly that's the problem not a lot of people actually report concerns because 'it's not their concern'!!
Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. I met a nursery nurse from a very, how shall I say it, "diverse" area the other week on some safeguarding training who has never in 30 years made a social care referral. I know for a fact some of my caseload are attending her setting. When I challenged her that this seems an unlikely situation, she said "she doesn't like to spoil the relationship with parents"... Nursery are one of the main safeguards for the under 5s. I was astonished at her attitude. Safeguarding really is everybodies responsibility."
You know that and I know that but no one ever wants to take that responsibility. I had a childminder approach me a couple of years back as a young child they knew of was being left home alone before and after school but she didn't want to report it as it might cause problems. Luckily she knew I'd have no qualms about reporting it and thankfully it was sorted out although the scariest thing was that mum was leaving him as she was on placement training to be a social worker!!!!!
When it all goes tits up though it's not the ones who didn't report concerns taking the flack though it'll be the social worker 'that missed the signs'!!! Grrrrr makes my blood boil  |
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By *obbygggMan
over a year ago
Birmingham |
"Yeah but it's easier to snipe at others.I'm sorry but those who are in the position of knowing about vulnerable/abused children have failed to do their jobs. They are aware. If I saw abuse then of course I'd act.The teachers see the kids as well. I don't.Every year that Dept gets awful ratings from Govt inspections. They don't try to deny it. They just trot out the old "lessons will be learned" while even more and more kids die. If they can't do the job they should leave and let people in who will.
Like you?
The system needs changing for sure but I don't understand how you seem to believe people that enter social services don't care about people and that teachers can be held to account for every aspect of children's lives."
Some people(not all) in SS don't care.Some NHS staff don't care. Some police officers don't care etc. The point being SOME not all.Some people are in jobs purely and simply fpor the cash.Read the history of Bham SS (children's section) and try to convince me otherwise. As fot teachers..well they saw the little Polish lad scavenging in bins and losing weight.How do you explain that?Don't defend the indefensible. |
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"Secondly the people on here shouting the loudest about the lack of action would be the ones shouting the loudest that the police/social services had too much power if they didn't agree with the action taken..
.And you base the statement in your 2nd paragraph on what facts exactly?"
Experience... The people who always shout the loudest about things like police not having enough powers or not doing enough are always the ones that shout the loudest saying the police have too many powers or interfere where they are not wanted.
For many years I have worked with police officers and seen that they can never do any right in many peoples eyes.
I'm sorry about the quality of my punctuation last night. I write these on my phone and had been up over 20 hours. However I am humbled in the presence of those who are perfect all of the time.
I would once more like to apologise for wasting your time... |
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