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Scottish referendum
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"No, it's a Scottish question for the Jocks to decide amongst themselves. " Surely the issue is the break up of the united kingdom. As prime minister surely its in the public interest to hear the governments view regarding this | |||
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Who Pays For It ???  | |||
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"Several posters are missing the point, this is a major constitutional issue for what is currently part of the United Kingdom, surely as the current Prime Minister of the UK and therefore of Scotland Mr Cameron should take part in any debate on the issue and argue his point, especially given he is sucha fervent supproter of the Union. The fact that he refuses to do so is yet another example of his arrogance and the lack of respect he shows to this part of the UK, one of the myriad of reasons I will personally be voting Yes in the referendum, I mean it's worth it for no other reason than to guarantee we never have another Tory government imposed on us up here!" Yeah but we'd like that too. | |||
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"Several posters are missing the point, this is a major constitutional issue for what is currently part of the United Kingdom, surely as the current Prime Minister of the UK and therefore of Scotland Mr Cameron should take part in any debate on the issue and argue his point, especially given he is sucha fervent supproter of the Union. The fact that he refuses to do so is yet another example of his arrogance and the lack of respect he shows to this part of the UK, one of the myriad of reasons I will personally be voting Yes in the referendum, I mean it's worth it for no other reason than to guarantee we never have another Tory government imposed on us up here! Yeah but we'd like that too." Move to Scotland and vote yes is the only option i can give you lol | |||
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"Several posters are missing the point, this is a major constitutional issue for what is currently part of the United Kingdom, surely as the current Prime Minister of the UK and therefore of Scotland Mr Cameron should take part in any debate on the issue and argue his point, especially given he is sucha fervent supproter of the Union. The fact that he refuses to do so is yet another example of his arrogance and the lack of respect he shows to this part of the UK, one of the myriad of reasons I will personally be voting Yes in the referendum, I mean it's worth it for no other reason than to guarantee we never have another Tory government imposed on us up here! Yeah but we'd like that too. Move to Scotland and vote yes is the only option i can give you lol" I'm tempted. Education is good, people are nice, whiskey is great (but not quite as good as the Irish stuff) - but it's so bloody cold!! | |||
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"Whatever !!! The Cost of All the Debates !!! The cost of Advertising, The Voting, and all the other Shite that goes with these Things.. Costs MILLIONS...
Who Pays For It ??? "in these times of austerity we are wasting money to satisfy a very small group of politicians who have only their own interests at heart and the interests of the Scottish people. | |||
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"Whatever !!! The Cost of All the Debates !!! The cost of Advertising, The Voting, and all the other Shite that goes with these Things.. Costs MILLIONS...
Who Pays For It ???
in these times of austerity we are wasting money to satisfy a very small group of politicians who have only their own interests at heart and the interests of the Scottish people.
"It is wasting money looking after the interests of us Scottish people then?!!!! Thanks for the put down, another reason to vote yes ticked! | |||
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"If Scotland Won.. Would we Need .... New Passports.. New Driving Licence.. Border-Controls !! I know the driving licence / passport is kinda European etc - but would we need to Join Europe and Have the Currency.. called the Euro !! " It has already been decided we would retain the pound and several of these documents may be replaced by new ones of course, but organically with the current ones remaining valid in the meantime. It is ridiculous and a pro-union tactic to suggest we would not remain within the EU. I like that you consider it Scotland 'winning' as I do tho! | |||
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"Bit of a simplistic view here , but can we have a vote in England to see if we want Scotland to stay ?" nah as you cant keep us if we do decide to go lol. Though I for one would vote yo stay  | |||
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"Bit of a simplistic view here , but can we have a vote in England to see if we want Scotland to stay ?" Stay in the UK? England is not the UK, only part of it so we are already not a part of England thank you very much! | |||
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"Bit of a simplistic view here , but can we have a vote in England to see if we want Scotland to stay ?" If you let the scots vote first.. it will save the english a fortune in campaign posters and annoying leaflets and television and billboard adverts.. | |||
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"If scotland did vote to leave , would they want any kind of severence money or would they just cut their ties with the uk all together . I.e. pay for hospitals , social security etc out of the taxes they raise themselves ?" We would pay for all of these things and more including our already free prescriptions, care for the elderly and Universities without tuition fees from our own taxation | |||
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"Bit of a simplistic view here , but can we have a vote in England to see if we want Scotland to stay ?" I think politicians are too scared of the possible outcome for that. I hope Scotland stays - but if the majority there want to go then they should. | |||
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"Bit of a simplistic view here , but can we have a vote in England to see if we want Scotland to stay ? I think politicians are too scared of the possible outcome for that. I hope Scotland stays - but if the majority there want to go then they should." It's not up to 'England' tho, there is a case for it being a decision for the whole of the UK perhaps, including Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland as well as England. The attitude that England somehow rules all is one of the many factors that makes me feel our best otion is control of our own destiny with a clear deliniation of what country this is, we are not all subservient to England. I may add that my own Grandfather was English, my GF is English and many of my good and valued friends are too, so I am definitely not some English bashing Scottish thug. I detest that attitude probably more than most English people! | |||
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"The English part of government has already made its case clear with respect to Scottish independence. The Scottish people must now decide where they want to go. I sincerely hope that the jingoistic, English phobic, claptrap put about by Salmon (who wants to be King Alex the First) is seen for what it really is. Britain is better together. "What exactly is 'The English part of Government'? I thought the government was for the whole of the UK? Keep marginalising us and we will keep winning the argument....... | |||
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"Whatever !!! The Cost of All the Debates !!! The cost of Advertising, The Voting, and all the other Shite that goes with these Things.. Costs MILLIONS...
Who Pays For It ???
in these times of austerity we are wasting money to satisfy a very small group of politicians who have only their own interests at heart and the interests of the Scottish people.
It is wasting money looking after the interests of us Scottish people then?!!!! Thanks for the put down, another reason to vote yes ticked!"do you honestly believe that this is being done for the good of the Scottish people and Scotland. this is to serve the needs of a very small group of self serving politicians. you will lose the pound euro membership free university education and lots more besides be careful what you wish for. the united kingdom the coming together of the home unions is in everyone's benefit | |||
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"Bit of a simplistic view here , but can we have a vote in England to see if we want Scotland to stay ? Stay in the UK? England is not the UK, only part of it so we are already not a part of England thank you very much!" As an English man I hope the scots vote yes. | |||
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"Whatever !!! The Cost of All the Debates !!! The cost of Advertising, The Voting, and all the other Shite that goes with these Things.. Costs MILLIONS...
Who Pays For It ???
in these times of austerity we are wasting money to satisfy a very small group of politicians who have only their own interests at heart and the interests of the Scottish people.
It is wasting money looking after the interests of us Scottish people then?!!!! Thanks for the put down, another reason to vote yes ticked!
do you honestly believe that this is being done for the good of the Scottish people and Scotland.
this is to serve the needs of a very small group of self serving politicians.
you will lose
the pound
euro membership
free university education
and lots more besides
be careful what you wish for.
the united kingdom the coming together of the home unions is in everyone's benefit"It was your post which said it was the interests of the Scottish people, however given it is a referendum, open to all who live in Scotland, the people shall decide. As for your other assertions, we would keep the pound it would seem, not that i personally see it as an issue, the only reason we have free unis while the rest of the UK doesn't is down to devolution so how would that change? I also fail to see how we would 'lose' eu membership as we are a lot more pro eu than the rest of the uk. All politicians are self serving, no mattet which side of the debate! | |||
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"Bit of a simplistic view here , but can we have a vote in England to see if we want Scotland to stay ? I think politicians are too scared of the possible outcome for that. I hope Scotland stays - but if the majority there want to go then they should. It's not up to 'England' tho, there is a case for it being a decision for the whole of the UK perhaps, including Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland as well as England. The attitude that England somehow rules all is one of the many factors that makes me feel our best otion is control of our own destiny with a clear deliniation of what country this is, we are not all subservient to England. I may add that my own Grandfather was English, my GF is English and many of my good and valued friends are too, so I am definitely not some English bashing Scottish thug. I detest that attitude probably more than most English people!" I don't believe 'England rules' - I was just responding in general to the point made that if there were a vote here I don't know which way it would go. A large part of the reason for that would be because it's annoying to be English and regarded as an oppressor when most have no interest at all in being so. If you then add that to the free prescriptions, university etc. and the unbalance of Scottish MP's... Scotland may never have it so good again - but the boats already rocking now. | |||
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"Whatever !!! The Cost of All the Debates !!! The cost of Advertising, The Voting, and all the other Shite that goes with these Things.. Costs MILLIONS...
Who Pays For It ???
in these times of austerity we are wasting money to satisfy a very small group of politicians who have only their own interests at heart and the interests of the Scottish people.
It is wasting money looking after the interests of us Scottish people then?!!!! Thanks for the put down, another reason to vote yes ticked!
do you honestly believe that this is being done for the good of the Scottish people and Scotland.
this is to serve the needs of a very small group of self serving politicians.
you will lose
the pound
euro membership
free university education
and lots more besides
be careful what you wish for.
the united kingdom the coming together of the home unions is in everyone's benefit
It was your post which said it was the interests of the Scottish people, however given it is a referendum, open to all who live in Scotland, the people shall decide.
As for your other assertions, we would keep the pound it would seem, not that i personally see it as an issue, the only reason we have free unis while the rest of the UK doesn't is down to devolution so how would that change? I also fail to see how we would 'lose' eu membership as we are a lot more pro eu than the rest of the uk.
All politicians are self serving, no mattet which side of the debate!"lol we agree about politicians you should have the right the vote for independence as should any nation. i just believe that we are best served as one and not apart. there are certain promises being made by politicians in Scotland that they cannot deliver and whenever they are confronted with these facts they begin tub thumping which is a shame as this is a massive decision for all parties i for one hope that snp do not get there way. | |||
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"I think we should have a referendum in England to leave the UK. " Why not - if it's to be done in Scotland then maybe it should be put to all countries. Wouldn't surprise me if there'd be a stronger vote to leave in England than in any other country. | |||
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"David Cameron has consistently shown he has no interest in the publics views.. He has clearly stated that he would not be bullied by public opinion. Therefor what we have is a man who has his own agenda and that of global corporations. Wether Scotland gets independence or not, nothing will change till we the people see through the smoke and mirrors, rally together and march on London to demand that we get a goverment who won't butt fuck us at every given oppertunity. Its time for change..And only we have the power to force things to change.. Its time to put the unity back in community I say... "Great post !..  | |||
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"If Scotland Won.. Would we Need .... New Passports.. New Driving Licence.. Border-Controls !! I know the driving licence / passport is kinda European etc - but would we need to Join Europe and Have the Currency.. called the Euro !! " Many make one assumption too many... They believe that Scotland can suseed from the UK while remaining in the EU. This can only happen if all EU members agree and I for one will be lobbying hard for the UK to veto your continuing membership of the EU if Scotland leave the UK. | |||
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"The English part of government has already made its case clear with respect to Scottish independence. The Scottish people must now decide where they want to go. I sincerely hope that the jingoistic, English phobic, claptrap put about by Salmon (who wants to be King Alex the First) is seen for what it really is. Britain is better together. "It's SalmonD and love him or hate him he is, in my view, the best politician the UK currently has. Unmatched. However just my view. Want rid of him? Vote and encourage the Yes vote in Scotland and you'll never see him again after the two year transition. Simple as that. | |||
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"As far as I'm aware if Scotland did get independence they couldn't support them selves financially. Would the uk then have to come in a pick up the pieces 5-10 years down the line. " Falkland islands? no financial support from the UK, only military. Self sufficient. Isle of Man? as above. Norway? Iceland?, Denmark?, Finland?, New Zeland? - i could go on. All similarly populated and surviving fine on their own. Iceland, sure they had a crash, but they've all but recovered and we're still struggling right now. Easier to steer a wee ship out of danger than a big one. The finance issue is such a Unionist myth. Sorry. You are completely and utterly wrong. | |||
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"As far as I'm aware if Scotland did get independence they couldn't support them selves financially. Would the uk then have to come in a pick up the pieces 5-10 years down the line. Falkland islands? no financial support from the UK, only military. Self sufficient. Isle of Man? as above. Norway? Iceland?, Denmark?, Finland?, New Zeland? - i could go on. All similarly populated and surviving fine on their own. Iceland, sure they had a crash, but they've all but recovered and we're still struggling right now. Easier to steer a wee ship out of danger than a big one. The finance issue is such a Unionist myth. Sorry. You are completely and utterly wrong." Just because other country's have been ok doesn't mean Scotland would be. I ha read somewhere about if Scotland went alone they wouldn't be able to support the nhs themselves as Scotland could only support it with about 70% of the money that it currently has available. | |||
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"Just because other country's have been ok doesn't mean Scotland would be. I ha read somewhere about if Scotland went alone they wouldn't be able to support the nhs themselves as Scotland could only support it with about 70% of the money that it currently has available. " Scotland ALREADY financially controls the NHS up here - so again, myths. | |||
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"To be fair, ramaining in the UK right now we're financially fucked. That getting any better? Nope. We raise more per head in tax for the UK as it stands (£1700 more per person), we spend less on our services, social and welfare compared to the rest of the UK, yet have a far better system in place. We have a thriving and World Leading life science sector, great manufacturing, huge creative industries, alternative power, massive ICT and Digital industries employing almost 50k people alone - and I haven't even mantioned the "O" word yet...see posts above. As far as National Debt goes: it's fair share of the National debt is a drop in the ocean as its based on per head, less than the amount of people in London. Present estimates sit in the £40b range, which is just under 30% of the Scottish GDP. Doubt that will fell us. Theres also no issue with charging for prescriptions, education etc, frankly you're making that up. Currently all those things are under the control of the Scottish Parliament and presently our growth is above that of the rUK so don't see that faltering any time soon." Yeah ok then. Just because you don't agree with what I have said means I'm making it up.  | |||
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" Yeah ok then. Just because you don't agree with what I have said means I'm making it up. "lol, OK perhaps a bit harsh, apologies. I do get a bit Mel Gibson with these things, obviously whilst drinking whisky, reminicing over 1314 and stroking my pet Haggis - no thats not a euphemism! It is however a fact. All healthcare, education, Policing etc are all under the Scottish Parliaments financial control. Not Londons'. So if its an afordability issue in the future it would be now. | |||
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"My first thought was that this will be an opportunity to find out how little the English know about Separation. The answer seem to be - even less than the Scots. There are loads of unanswered question. Salmond's standard reply is 'don't worry about that, I'll sort it out later'. " The answers are all there, you just have to ask. Heres a wee pointer: http://www.yesscotland.net/undecided_responses Even if you do vote NO, you'll at least have made an informed decision. | |||
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"Do it, cut the cord...Scotland is respected world wide, now it needs self belief not giving in to scare stories. I for one will lose respect for Scottish People if they don't vote for independence." Respect disnae feed weans. | |||
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As a final thought. Someone mentioned that an independent Scotland would never have a Tory government imposed on them again. That is true, but also England would never have to suffer a Labour government imposed on it by Scottish Labour MP's making up the majority. That one cuts both ways. | |||
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"With current population estimates at 5.2 million people and a per head debt of just over £18000 that would put scotlands share of the national debt at about 98 billion ish. (And rising) To service that would mean an austerity package similar to what's just happened countrywide. I'd suggest free education and prescriptions would be first casualties, followed by a tax hike. " Not if you include oil in the GDP forecast and also include any offset % from revenue generated for the UK through oil revenues retrospectively. Though granted, theres no definitive on which road will be chosen for this. Education and prescriptions won't go and I'm all in favour of a higher taxes to build a solid future Independently. Sen has high taxes and no one really complains about it, that I've met (a lot!) as they see the return. | |||
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"With current population estimates at 5.2 million people and a per head debt of just over £18000 that would put scotlands share of the national debt at about 98 billion ish. (And rising) To service that would mean an austerity package similar to what's just happened countrywide. I'd suggest free education and prescriptions would be first casualties, followed by a tax hike. Not if you include oil in the GDP forecast and also include any offset % from revenue generated for the UK through oil revenues retrospectively. Though granted, theres no definitive on which road will be chosen for this. Education and prescriptions won't go and I'm all in favour of a higher taxes to build a solid future Independently. Sen has high taxes and no one really complains about it, that I've met (a lot!) as they see the return. " Swedish taxes
I don't think seven quid a pint would go down too well in parts of Glasgow. 40 quid for a bottle of Scotch anyone? | |||
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"As a final thought. Someone mentioned that an independent Scotland would never have a Tory government imposed on them again. That is true, but also England would never have to suffer a Labour government imposed on it by Scottish Labour MP's making up the majority. That one cuts both ways." That's only happened twice in the history of the Labour party though (in 1964 and 1974). These elections would have produced hung parliaments without Scottish MP's taken into account. In every other Westminster election, the result would still have been the same if Scotland had been independent. The notion that Labour regularly "rule" the UK because of the size of the Labour vote in Scotland is pure myth. | |||
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"As a final thought. Someone mentioned that an independent Scotland would never have a Tory government imposed on them again. That is true, but also England would never have to suffer a Labour government imposed on it by Scottish Labour MP's making up the majority. That one cuts both ways. That's only happened twice in the history of the Labour party though (in 1964 and 1974). These elections would have produced hung parliaments without Scottish MP's taken into account. In every other Westminster election, the result would still have been the same if Scotland had been independent. The notion that Labour regularly "rule" the UK because of the size of the Labour vote in Scotland is pure myth. " So 50% of all Labour governments since the war and 20% of election wins in the same period is a myth? It could also be argued that todays poxy coalition would not have happened if not for Scottish Labour and Lib Dem MP's. The Tories had a comfortable majority in England. | |||
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"...... Education and prescriptions won't go and I'm all in favour of a higher taxes to build a solid future Independently. Sen has high taxes and no one really complains about it, that I've met (a lot!) as they see the return. " Education and prescriptions might well stay but other things like free personal care or bus passes might have to go. Planning an economy built on oil when the rest of the world is moving to renewables maybe isn't wisest move, yet for all Scotland's renewable advantages, we've yet to find a way of generating and transmitting it economically. | |||
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"...... Education and prescriptions won't go and I'm all in favour of a higher taxes to build a solid future Independently. Sen has high taxes and no one really complains about it, that I've met (a lot!) as they see the return. Education and prescriptions might well stay but other things like free personal care or bus passes might have to go. Planning an economy built on oil when the rest of the world is moving to renewables maybe isn't wisest move, yet for all Scotland's renewable advantages, we've yet to find a way of generating and transmitting it economically." That is the problem with renewables (and will be for a long time yet) Renewable energy is very expensive and is only viable when propped up with huge government (taxpayer) subsidy. Oil is a finite resource and one day it will run out. Independence is forever. | |||
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"Planning an economy built on oil when the rest of the world is moving to renewables maybe isn't wisest move, yet for all Scotland's renewable advantages, we've yet to find a way of generating and transmitting it economically." I saw an edition of 'Coast' once that made me laugh hard. Apparently they pipe oil over to the UK from Norway - because they don't need it. They're coping mostly through hydroelectricity. I don't know anything of the science so I'm sure (hope) there's a sensible reason but it made me laugh to think of UK politicians travelling over there to buy oil but failing to ask why they didn't need it. | |||
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"With current population estimates at 5.2 mihttp://www.scottisheconomywatch.com/brian-ashcrofts-scottish/independence/lion people and a per head debt of just over £18000 that would put scotlands share of the national debt at about 98 billion ish. (And rising) To service that would mean an austerity package similar to what's just happened countrywide. I'd suggest free education and prescriptions would be first casualties, followed by a tax hike. Not if you include oil in the GDP forecast and also include any offset % from revenue generated for the UK through oil revenues retrospectively. Though granted, theres no definitive on which road will be chosen for this. Education and prescriptions won't go and I'm all in favour of a higher taxes to build a solid future Independently. Sen has high taxes and no one really complains about it, that I've met (a lot!) as they see the return. " Perhaps read this page from Scottish Economy Watch http://www.scottisheconomywatch.com/brian-ashcrofts-scottish/independence/ For an explanation of why your assertation is wrong. I think the whole process is being based on right wing nationalist nonsense anyway from the SNP, people don't seem to be able to stop living in the past. And yes I'd say the same about any English who go on about "two world wars and one world cup" to the Germans. | |||
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"Scotland is a highly educated modern European nation, it engineers have no peers, teachers, finance people, manufacturers, distillers, builders, sales, all have outstanding reputations. Don't let the lies of vested interest stand in the way of your destiny. Whatever happened to Scotland The Brave." i think you should take a look at the latest league tables for universities Scotland only have 2 in the top 20 with st Andrews coming in 6th as for finance the London school of economics wins hands down i am sure Gordon brown ( university of Edinburgh) was in charge when northern rock went to the wall although he and his other Scottish ministers such alistair darling (university of aberdeen) were warned about it by jon moulton a venture capitalist (educated at lancaster university) 6 months before the collapse of the sub prime mortgage market in the US engineers well i don't think many better isambard kingdom brunel (university of caen) i believe the Scottish people should make an informed choice about something as serious as this don't trust tub thumping snp politicians look at what economists say about your future if you vote for independence you will either tax higher or go cap in hand to Europe look at eire Portugal Spain who all did the same 10 years ago were are they now. | |||
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"A yes vote would break up the UK in more ways than one. The rest of the UK would go broke trying to rebuild Coulport and Faslane in England or Wales. I'd vote yes for no other reason than it gets rid of WMD. For a country that claims to be poor to support its poorest people, it's an obscenity. " in an ideal world then i agree however i don't think that even if you vote yes you will rid Scotland of WMD at fauslane. its a pity the world cannot get along without resorting to threat and counter threat | |||
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"however i don't think that even if you vote yes you will rid Scotland of WMD at fauslane. its a pity the world cannot get along without resorting to threat and counter threat " Keeping the Subs in Scotland = We Get A lot of Money for that !!!  | |||
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"You might be right. It'd be up for negotiation. The longer Scotland lets them stay there - say 10 years until England builds its own infrastructure - the lower Scotland's share of the national debt may be at separation. It took the Russians a while to reclaim their nukes from Ukraine and such places." Scotland makes money ... but .. it also lets fully Nuclear laden Submarines.. russia, france, germany, etc Basically They pay a Massive Rent to - Moor Up in Scotland..
bye bye internet..   | |||
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"Would Scotland be able to go it alone? I think so, but only just, and with quite a lot of changes. Firstly an independent Scotland would struggle to keep things like free prescriptions, university Etc. Even with oil revenues, whisky exports, and other taxation, the bill would be stretch Scottish finances to the limit. In the short term it might just be manageable as there will be some room for borrowing, but it wouldn't be sustainable for more than a few years. As for Scotland's membership of the EU. It would lapse the moment it became independent and Scotland would have to re-apply for membership. To be fair it would almost certainly be granted, but (as always with the EU) with stings attached. I would be willing to bet that joining the Eurozone would be condition No.1 and Brussels would not miss an opportunity to try to bully a new member into handing over some of its oil revenues, and de-commissioning even more of the Scottish fishing fleet. I must admit that the EU part of the debate has always confused me. Why should Scotland want independence from London, but be happy to give all away to Brussels?
As a final thought. Someone mentioned that an independent Scotland would never have a Tory government imposed on them again. That is true, but also England would never have to suffer a Labour government imposed on it by Scottish Labour MP's making up the majority. That one cuts both ways."Not to me it doesn't, I am no fan of the current Labour party, however, whilst I am often unsure who I will vote for I am 100% sure who I will NEVER vote for. How embarassing is it to have the old school fool pal of the incredibly well off David Cameron as chancellor when he just isnt up to tying his own shoelaces. They can all tighten their belts way more than me before anything will bite but will keep looking after their own. | |||
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"100 billion pounds to have a bunch of weapons which will never be used floating around the world, Getting rid of Trident = MASSIVE savings for Scotland. To those that argue we could not support ourselves if Independent, did you know we contribute way more per head of capita to the public purse than the rest of the UK? This is redistributed under the Barnett formula which gives us back proportionately more per head of capita than is given to the rest of the UK, however still less than is actually raised here. Simple maths tells me we would be better off not worse unless I have missed something........" That it's based on ownership of the oil? | |||
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"100 billion pounds to have a bunch of weapons which will never be used floating around the world, Getting rid of Trident = MASSIVE savings for Scotland. To those that argue we could not support ourselves if Independent, did you know we contribute way more per head of capita to the public purse than the rest of the UK? This is redistributed under the Barnett formula which gives us back proportionately more per head of capita than is given to the rest of the UK, however still less than is actually raised here. Simple maths tells me we would be better off not worse unless I have missed something........ That it's based on ownership of the oil?" Not missed that, if it is in 'our' territorial waters then we 'own' it for taxation purposes at least, though most is extracted by companies based outside the UK i believe | |||
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"I meant that the figures you quoted assume that Scotland already owns the oil opposed to them actually being currently UK owned in which case the figures are very different." Given that we would, surely this is the correct calculation, it also takesinto account all that England, Ireland and Wales produce under the same criteria rather than classing it as UK owned so is perfectly valid. That is the whole point of divvying it up. | |||
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"Probably splitting hairs a bit - as things stand Scotland's public spending is subsidised if you assume that currently oil is owned by the UK (not Scotland). But if Scotland owns the oil revenue after independence then based on current figures I think you're right there could/should be a surplus. Which I guess is your point anyway." Entirely! Whisky is also a huge tax generator and is currently classed as a UK owned industry in the same way but would of course be Scottish revenue IF we voted for independence, hence that is how the calculation must be looked at. | |||
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"I contribute to a fair bit of the whisky revenue - although most of that goes to Ireland "To be sure, to be sure! This would be such a better debate over a few drams! | |||
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"Probably splitting hairs a bit - as things stand Scotland's public spending is subsidised if you assume that currently oil is owned by the UK (not Scotland). But if Scotland owns the oil revenue after independence then based on current figures I think you're right there could/should be a surplus. Which I guess is your point anyway. Entirely! Whisky is also a huge tax generator and is currently classed as a UK owned industry in the same way but would of course be Scottish revenue IF we voted for independence, hence that is how the calculation must be looked at." Distilling is a good tax generator but generates little profit for the UK or Scottish economies cos most brands are overseas owned (oil is much the same). Additionally numbers employed in the industry are going down, except in cooperage. Separation won't change that, except maybe the location of bonded warehouses. | |||
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"Probably splitting hairs a bit - as things stand Scotland's public spending is subsidised " Bit of a myth there, based round the 'Union Dividend', one that's been blown out the water time and time again but too politically convenient to let go of. | |||
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"Probably splitting hairs a bit - as things stand Scotland's public spending is subsidised Bit of a myth there, based round the 'Union Dividend', one that's been blown out the water time and time again but too politically convenient to let go of. " Would you care to share the facts then? Nicola Sturgeon couldn't when questioned on Radio 4 a few minutes ago. | |||
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"Probably splitting hairs a bit - as things stand Scotland's public spending is subsidised Bit of a myth there, based round the 'Union Dividend', one that's been blown out the water time and time again but too politically convenient to let go of. " Just basic maths isn't it? | |||
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"Probably splitting hairs a bit - as things stand Scotland's public spending is subsidised Bit of a myth there, based round the 'Union Dividend', one that's been blown out the water time and time again but too politically convenient to let go of. Just basic maths isn't it?" You can only do a sum if you have the correct numbers. | |||
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"Probably splitting hairs a bit - as things stand Scotland's public spending is subsidised Bit of a myth there, based round the 'Union Dividend', one that's been blown out the water time and time again but too politically convenient to let go of. Would you care to share the facts then? Nicola Sturgeon couldn't when questioned on Radio 4 a few minutes ago."
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"If scotland did vote to leave , would they want any kind of severence money or would they just cut their ties with the uk all together . I.e. pay for hospitals , social security etc out of the taxes they raise themselves ? We would pay for all of these things and more including our already free prescriptions, care for the elderly and Universities without tuition fees from our own taxation" As long as your taxation is no more than English taxation. Or to put it slightly differently ... as long as *English* taxation is no lower than *Scottish* taxation. | |||
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"No, it's a Scottish question for the Jocks to decide amongst themselves. " If that's the case when this is all over and let's say the Scots vote to stay .can us British have a vote of whether we want you any more as part of the united kingdom | |||
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" Nicola Sturgeon couldn't when questioned on Radio 4 a few minutes ago." I think she done pretty well to be fair. Darling also clearly admitted that Scotland could 'no doubt' aford to be Independent. From the horses mouth as it were. | |||
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"The one thing I hate about this whole thing is it smacks of tribalism something that has no place in the 22 century . If you take tribalism and religious brain washing out of the human physic there would be no wars or you would halve violence over night . I though we were beyond all that in the UK sadly Scotland wanting to be a separate country is very much a outdated way if thinking about ourselves as a species. In my opinion "You managed to get beyond it within 14 minutes! | |||
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" Nicola Sturgeon couldn't when questioned on Radio 4 a few minutes ago. I think she done pretty well to be fair. Darling also clearly admitted that Scotland could 'no doubt' aford to be Independent. From the horses mouth as it were." There's no doubt we could afford it but that's not the question. The question is will Scotland be a better place to live after Separation and the challenge is that there are no actual FACTS coming from Eck's mob. | |||
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"The one thing I hate about this whole thing is it smacks of tribalism something that has no place in the 22 century . If you take tribalism and religious brain washing out of the human physic there would be no wars or you would halve violence over night . I though we were beyond all that in the UK sadly Scotland wanting to be a separate country is very much a outdated way if thinking about ourselves as a species. In my opinion "The tribal aspect is often ignored. You only have to look at Ulster/ Northern Ireland over the last 300 and more specifically 40 years to see what happens when two 'halves' of a nation disagree about such matters. | |||
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" ....... We voted against Nuclear subs in our waters - well they're here now. Lets put them in Portsmouth or even the Thames... " There's a problem with that. They won't fit. | |||
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" There's a problem with that. They won't fit. " They used to fit in Rosyth no problem. Been on them there. | |||
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"The one thing I hate about this whole thing is it smacks of tribalism something that has no place in the 22 century . If you take tribalism and religious brain washing out of the human physic there would be no wars or you would halve violence over night . I though we were beyond all that in the UK sadly Scotland wanting to be a separate country is very much a outdated way if thinking about ourselves as a species. In my opinion
You managed to get beyond it within 14 minutes!"The first post was a sarcastic post showing tribalism at work and the stupidity of it all hence the devil at the end . The second post was pointing out the real thing at play here tribalism .....trying to make some feel special by being different from some one else when in reality we are all one species  | |||
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" There's a problem with that. They won't fit. They used to fit in Rosyth no problem. Been on them there." I beg to disagree. HMNB Clyde has the only access water deep enough. | |||
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" 'there are no actual FACTS coming from Eck's mob.' To the general public, you're correct there isn't enough info in my opinion either. What there is is generally skewed by the media. Especially the BBC. Similarly, not a great deal if hard, cast iron anything from the bitter together camp either. Lots to be done on either side. "All Eck can tell you with any certainty is where to buy Braveheart face paint. | |||
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" There's a problem with that. They won't fit. They used to fit in Rosyth no problem. Been on them there. I beg to disagree. HMNB Clyde has the only access water deep enough." disagree all ye like Sir. My brother was a Chief PO and used to be based there in the 80's. Also know guys who are neighbours of mine who used to re-fit them there at the same period '84 onwards. The Forth is deceptively deep. Hence nae tunnel. | |||
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" All Eck can tell you with any certainty is where to buy Braveheart face paint." You started off well, I'll give you that. | |||
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seriously though... it is a scottish issue, so let the people who are the heads of each campaign in scotland do the debate...
salmond knows having a conservative pm doing to debate would help his cause....
if labour is the main opposition in scotland, then it is right that it should be a labour figure who is the opponent!!! | |||
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" There's a problem with that. They won't fit. They used to fit in Rosyth no problem. Been on them there. I beg to disagree. HMNB Clyde has the only access water deep enough. disagree all ye like Sir. My brother was a Chief PO and used to be based there in the 80's. Also know guys who are neighbours of mine who used to re-fit them there at the same period '84 onwards. The Forth is deceptively deep. Hence nae tunnel." As I recall, none of the current batch were launched till the early 90s but who am I to disagree with a Chief's brother. | |||
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"I think its a bad move for Scotland if thay do go alone how much longer will thay get free precriptions for? People keep going on about all the oil in Scotland and that will save them the is only so much oil and the subsidy off the UK government will stop that's about 6 billion pounds." It may not be prescriptions but something will have to go - even if nobody is prepared to admit it. Bus passes, personal care, tertiary education - we can't afford to keep it all free forever. | |||
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"'I do hope our fellow countrymen and women in the north forget the ancient history life and the world were different then, but vote based on the last 100 years not the last 5, as this vote will be for the next 100 years not 5.' Good post except this bit! lol The people of Scotland are unfortunately tarred by the Braveheart guff, good as the film was for our tourist industry (see post above - from a Scot too). Sure we are proud of our history and heritage but this is a much bigger fish than all of that. This perception is generated by the media as it gets good coverage. Thats not what 'real' scots are like. We live in houses as well, drive cars, have electricity and everything. "Yeah the ancient history bit was supposed to be the minor point, the major being the fact that the decision is for the foreseeable future, 100 years seemed a reasonable number, and is therefore not connected to current politicians or economic situation. | |||
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" All Eck can tell you with any certainty is where to buy Braveheart face paint. You started off well, I'll give you that. " Sometimes the bare truth is enough. | |||
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"Several posters are missing the point, this is a major constitutional issue for what is currently part of the United Kingdom, surely as the current Prime Minister of the UK and therefore of Scotland Mr Cameron should take part in any debate on the issue and argue his point, especially given he is sucha fervent supproter of the Union. The fact that he refuses to do so is yet another example of his arrogance and the lack of respect he shows to this part of the UK, one of the myriad of reasons I will personally be voting Yes in the referendum, I mean it's worth it for no other reason than to guarantee we never have another Tory government imposed on us up here!" If he becomes involved in it it stops being a matter for Scotland to decide its future and becomes a matter for the UK to decide its future. If that then becomes the issue, that is the future of the UK not the future of Scotland then it should be all UK citizens voting. As it is set up and requested by the Scottish government on behalf of the Scottish people the views used to persuade should only be those of Scottish people & Scottish politicians. DC should keep his nose well out of it and let Scotland decide its own future. It's not arrogance, for once he's doing what has been asked of him! | |||
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"Several posters are missing the point, this is a major constitutional issue for what is currently part of the United Kingdom, surely as the current Prime Minister of the UK and therefore of Scotland Mr Cameron should take part in any debate on the issue and argue his point, especially given he is sucha fervent supproter of the Union. The fact that he refuses to do so is yet another example of his arrogance and the lack of respect he shows to this part of the UK, one of the myriad of reasons I will personally be voting Yes in the referendum, I mean it's worth it for no other reason than to guarantee we never have another Tory government imposed on us up here! If he becomes involved in it it stops being a matter for Scotland to decide its future and becomes a matter for the UK to decide its future. If that then becomes the issue, that is the future of the UK not the future of Scotland then it should be all UK citizens voting. As it is set up and requested by the Scottish government on behalf of the Scottish people the views used to persuade should only be those of Scottish people & Scottish politicians. DC should keep his nose well out of it and let Scotland decide its own future. It's not arrogance, for once he's doing what has been asked of him! " Looks as if Cameron can't win. Some say he should take part. Others say he should keep his nose well out of it. | |||
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"No, if the Scots are voting to go their own way, or not, it is up to them. It's not a question for the rest of the Kingdom and it is only the views up there that count. " have to agree. the rest of the UK hasnt a voice in what Scotland decides. He has made his feelings known on the subject, so now its up to the NO campaign to win the argument. | |||
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"No, if the Scots are voting to go their own way, or not, it is up to them. It's not a question for the rest of the Kingdom and it is only the views up there that count. have to agree. the rest of the UK hasnt a voice in what Scotland decides. He has made his feelings known on the subject, so now its up to the NO campaign to win the argument." The rest of the UK has a voice - just not a vote. The. Separatist Yes campaign are the ones struggling to even compete in the argument. | |||
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" The. Separatist Yes campaign are the ones struggling to even compete in the argument." While the Bitter Together campaign fill the biased media with scare stories and fabrication. Just remember that when we have term after term of Conservative rule (as Labour are screwed as a UK party presently) imposing things on the Scottish people and taking us into wars we neither want nor vote for. | |||
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" ...... Just remember that when we have term after term of Conservative rule (as Labour are screwed as a UK party presently) imposing things on the Scottish people and taking us into wars we neither want nor vote for." Just remember it was the SNP who brought Thatcher to power. | |||
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"No, if the Scots are voting to go their own way, or not, it is up to them. It's not a question for the rest of the Kingdom and it is only the views up there that count. have to agree. the rest of the UK hasnt a voice in what Scotland decides. He has made his feelings known on the subject, so now its up to the NO campaign to win the argument. The rest of the UK has a voice - just not a vote. The. Separatist Yes campaign are the ones struggling to even compete in the argument." sorry, i meant they dont have a say on the will of the scottish people. obviously the rest of the UK can voice an opinion. | |||
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" The. Separatist Yes campaign are the ones struggling to even compete in the argument. While the Bitter Together campaign fill the biased media with scare stories and fabrication. Just remember that when we have term after term of Conservative rule (as Labour are screwed as a UK party presently) imposing things on the Scottish people and taking us into wars we neither want nor vote for." only 2 stories i have heard about the split, would be no automatic membership of the EU and not certain to keep the currency, which kind of make sense to me. what else have they been saying? | |||
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"I'd prefer to stay British-but, if we go it alone so be it.What I don't want, if we vote to stay British is that awful carbunkle of a Scottish Parliment and the "Huge" costs involved.No halfway house,one or the other. I'd happily bulldose the Parliment building and make Scots MP's represent us in Westminster." I would prefer you to stay nothing to do with finance just think the countries of the uk hang well together Agree about the costs of parliaments What is the point European , Westminster, Scots & Welsh waste of money (not forgotten Nothern Ireland ) | |||
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" The. Separatist Yes campaign are the ones struggling to even compete in the argument. While the Bitter Together campaign fill the biased media with scare stories and fabrication. Just remember that when we have term after term of Conservative rule (as Labour are screwed as a UK party presently) imposing things on the Scottish people and taking us into wars we neither want nor vote for. only 2 stories i have heard about the split, would be no automatic membership of the EU and not certain to keep the currency, which kind of make sense to me. what else have they been saying?" There seems no question Eck wants to keep Sterling just in case another Scottish bank goes tits up and he has to find loadsa dosh in a hurry. That's assuming the Bank of England would agree to bailing out the same bank TWICE. | |||
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" ...... Vote No this time and we'll be back there again. Same dog, different kennel." Vote No and John Mason has insisted they'll hold a referendum 'every day till the Scottish people get the answer right'. | |||
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" ...... Just remember that when we have term after term of Conservative rule (as Labour are screwed as a UK party presently) imposing things on the Scottish people and taking us into wars we neither want nor vote for. Just remember it was the SNP who brought Thatcher to power." Where the hell did you get that one from???? | |||
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" There seems no question Eck wants to keep Sterling just in case another Scottish bank goes tits up and he has to find loadsa dosh in a hurry. That's assuming the Bank of England would agree to bailing out the same bank TWICE." Again, Scottish when they failed. Why did they fail? Boom and bust put in place by Labour to win over more votes. Why did they bail them out - wasn't just RBS (which to be fair is about as Scottish as Morris dancing these days) - because the government are shit scared of the banks. | |||
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" ...... Just remember that when we have term after term of Conservative rule (as Labour are screwed as a UK party presently) imposing things on the Scottish people and taking us into wars we neither want nor vote for. Just remember it was the SNP who brought Thatcher to power. Where the hell did you get that one from???? "The SNP voted to bring Callaghan down c 1979 - prompting the election which brought Thatcher to office. That's why the Nats are known as Tartan Tories. | |||
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"Boom and bust put in place by Labour to win over more votes. " Weirdly no... if it was Labours fault at all it was for bringing stability and low inflation for a decade causing the money making opportunities the risk takers profit from to become harder to track down. Forcing them to look for quick profits elsewhere in the world and the USA mortgage market seemed to offer them all the profit they could desire... Actually it was just greed by the bankers and a very quick expansion into a global money market where the rules were a bit different to the safeguards. Politicians would like us to all be fooled into thinking it was the previous government at fault.. until about now.. mid term.. when they realise they kind of have to admit they are not quite as powerful as they thought and global money markets really do own the playing field. | |||
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" There seems no question Eck wants to keep Sterling just in case another Scottish bank goes tits up and he has to find loadsa dosh in a hurry. That's assuming the Bank of England would agree to bailing out the same bank TWICE. Again, Scottish when they failed. Why did they fail? Boom and bust put in place by Labour to win over more votes. Why did they bail them out - wasn't just RBS (which to be fair is about as Scottish as Morris dancing these days) - because the government are shit scared of the banks. As for RBS goes lay most of the blame with sir Fred a bully in the board room who surrounded himself with yes men Bought ABN Amro at in inflated price and would not listen to a word said against it He lied to staff who probably lost more than most in the crash . Try being even handed according to you all the good is credit to the scots and the bad blame the government As for salmond he has already said if there was another crash he could always borrow from the BofE You can not have it both ways ! " | |||
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" ...... Vote No this time and we'll be back there again. Same dog, different kennel. Vote No and John Mason has insisted they'll hold a referendum 'every day till the Scottish people get the answer right'." as the irish did with the vote to adopt the Euro | |||
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" ...... Vote No this time and we'll be back there again. Same dog, different kennel. Vote No and John Mason has insisted they'll hold a referendum 'every day till the Scottish people get the answer right'. as the irish did with the vote to adopt the Euro" Exactly. | |||
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"In fairness, had the RBS/ ABN Amro deal come off, the could justifiably claim to be masters of the universe but, as someone said on the radio this morning, it's easy to gamble when you know someone else will cover your losses. Given that it went wrong, it's only because of Brown and Darling that people woke up with the same money they had when they went to bed." are you certain? that pair wanted the Euro all along | |||
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"In fairness, had the RBS/ ABN Amro deal come off, the could justifiably claim to be masters of the universe but, as someone said on the radio this morning, it's easy to gamble when you know someone else will cover your losses. Given that it went wrong, it's only because of Brown and Darling that people woke up with the same money they had when they went to bed." Apart from their pensions... | |||
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" ...... Just remember that when we have term after term of Conservative rule (as Labour are screwed as a UK party presently) imposing things on the Scottish people and taking us into wars we neither want nor vote for. Just remember it was the SNP who brought Thatcher to power. Where the hell did you get that one from????
The SNP voted to bring Callaghan down c 1979 - prompting the election which brought Thatcher to office.
That's why the Nats are known as Tartan Tories."I've seen some tenuous links in my time but that one takes the biscuit. By May 1979 the Callaghan government was pretty much on its last legs anyway. The Lib/Lab pact had unraveled and Labour were dragging sick MP's out of hospital to win votes. The country had ground to a halt, dead bodies were lying in freezer trucks because the grave diggers were on strike, and sunny Jim (crisis what crisis) Callaghan would have had to go to the electorate in October (when he would still have got stuffed)wheter or not he lost the confidence vote that brought about the May election. I'm no lover of the Scot Nats but if you are looking for someone to blame for Thatcher look no further than your own Jim Callaghan. BTW. I quite liked Maggie. | |||
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" ...... Just remember that when we have term after term of Conservative rule (as Labour are screwed as a UK party presently) imposing things on the Scottish people and taking us into wars we neither want nor vote for. Just remember it was the SNP who brought Thatcher to power. Where the hell did you get that one from????
The SNP voted to bring Callaghan down c 1979 - prompting the election which brought Thatcher to office.
That's why the Nats are known as Tartan Tories.
I've seen some tenuous links in my time but that one takes the biscuit.
By May 1979 the Callaghan government was pretty much on its last legs anyway. The Lib/Lab pact had unraveled and Labour were dragging sick MP's out of hospital to win votes. The country had ground to a halt, dead bodies were lying in freezer trucks because the grave diggers were on strike, and sunny Jim (crisis what crisis) Callaghan would have had to go to the electorate in October (when he would still have got stuffed)wheter or not he lost the confidence vote that brought about the May election.
I'm no lover of the Scot Nats but if you are looking for someone to blame for Thatcher look no further than your own Jim Callaghan.
BTW. I quite liked Maggie.
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" ...... BTW. I quite liked Maggie. "That comes as no surprise. How do you feel about Mosley? Franco? Mussolini? | |||
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" ...... BTW. I quite liked Maggie.
That comes as no surprise.
How do you feel about Mosley?
Franco?
Mussolini?"Nah!! wouldn't be seen dead in all them daft uniforms. BTW. You forgot Hitler | |||
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"Cameron doesn't want to, because he does not have the answers to difficult questions which will be put to him regarding revenue, and taxation issues ! " Who's going to pose these difficult questions? The reason Cameron won't agree to a debate is because that would elevate Eck to a status he doesn't have ..... or deserve. | |||
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"Cameron doesn't want to, because he does not have the answers to difficult questions which will be put to him regarding revenue, and taxation issues ! Who's going to pose these difficult questions? The reason Cameron won't agree to a debate is because that would elevate Eck to a status he doesn't have ..... or deserve." And on that we agree | |||
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"I suppose Scottish independence will have one advantage for the English. Buckie sales will count as exports "Aye, but if Eck goes ahead with Minimum Pricing, nobody will be able to afford it - even the very few who still have jobs. | |||
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"isn't it strange that Alex salmond will not enter into a debate with a fellow Scot alistair darling stating that he will only enter into a debate with David Cameron he is trying to make this a England v Scotland argument because if it is debated properly he will loose. see the institute of fiscal studies paper on an independent Scotland who warn that there would need to be a reduction of £2.5 BILLION in public spending in the first 2 years." Not strange at all. Though this constitutional decision isn't about 'big Eck', it's bigger than that - but the BT campaign can't see past that. He's the First Minister, let him stand with Cameron, the Prime Minister. If Darling wants a live debate, as the spokesperson (though really he's Cameron's puppet here) of the Better Together campaign, put him up against Canavan. That offer is there I believe. With ref to your IFS study, the self same IFS lot also criticise the present government's plan to restore public finance with the largest cut to public service spending since 'at least' the 2nd World War. Nothing is financially cast in stone with either the Union or Independence. No one can definitively give those answers, only predictions, if they could 2008 would never have happened and we'd all be rolling in it. Again, more scare stories. | |||
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"isn't it strange that Alex salmond will not enter into a debate with a fellow Scot alistair darling stating that he will only enter into a debate with David Cameron he is trying to make this a England v Scotland argument because if it is debated properly he will loose. see the institute of fiscal studies paper on an independent Scotland who warn that there would need to be a reduction of £2.5 BILLION in public spending in the first 2 years. Not strange at all. Though this constitutional decision isn't about 'big Eck', it's bigger than that - but the BT campaign can't see past that. He's the First Minister, let him stand with Cameron, the Prime Minister. If Darling wants a live debate, as the spokesperson (though really he's Cameron's puppet here) of the Better Together campaign, put him up against Canavan. That offer is there I believe. With ref to your IFS study, the self same IFS lot also criticise the present government's plan to restore public finance with the largest cut to public service spending since 'at least' the 2nd World War. Nothing is financially cast in stone with either the Union or Independence. No one can definitively give those answers, only predictions, if they could 2008 would never have happened and we'd all be rolling in it. Again, more scare stories." not sure about scare stories it just seems strange everytime they are asked to debate the issue with other Scots who have opposing views to their own the snp seem to make into a us against them argument (Scotland v England) and to me personally it should not be about that. before you reply i know that all politicians from all divides use these tactics when it suits them however i believe this is the biggest decision to be taken in the next year or so that could have a massive impact on the UK as a whole. therefore it be treated as such. | |||
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"isn't it strange that Alex salmond will not enter into a debate with a fellow Scot alistair darling stating that he will only enter into a debate with David Cameron he is trying to make this a England v Scotland argument because if it is debated properly he will loose. see the institute of fiscal studies paper on an independent Scotland who warn that there would need to be a reduction of £2.5 BILLION in public spending in the first 2 years. Not strange at all. Though this constitutional decision isn't about 'big Eck', it's bigger than that - but the BT campaign can't see past that. He's the First Minister, let him stand with Cameron, the Prime Minister. If Darling wants a live debate, as the spokesperson (though really he's Cameron's puppet here) of the Better Together campaign, put him up against Canavan. That offer is there I believe. With ref to your IFS study, the self same IFS lot also criticise the present government's plan to restore public finance with the largest cut to public service spending since 'at least' the 2nd World War. Nothing is financially cast in stone with either the Union or Independence. No one can definitively give those answers, only predictions, if they could 2008 would never have happened and we'd all be rolling in it. Again, more scare stories. not sure about scare stories it just seems strange everytime they are asked to debate the issue with other Scots who have opposing views to their own the snp seem to make into a us against them argument (Scotland v England) and to me personally it should not be about that. before you reply i know that all politicians from all divides use these tactics when it suits them however i believe this is the biggest decision to be taken in the next year or so that could have a massive impact on the UK as a whole. therefore it be treated as such. " agreed, its not an england VS scotland thing, its a scotland VS scotland thing, cameron has made his feeling quite clear on the subject, so he has no debate to make. there is no need to try and convince the 'british' public what is best, but much more useful to let the Scots know which would be best, and thats why there needs to be a debate between the groups rather than politicians | |||
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"isn't it strange that Alex salmond will not enter into a debate with a fellow Scot alistair darling stating that he will only enter into a debate with David Cameron he is trying to make this a England v Scotland argument because if it is debated properly he will loose. see the institute of fiscal studies paper on an independent Scotland who warn that there would need to be a reduction of £2.5 BILLION in public spending in the first 2 years. Not strange at all. Though this constitutional decision isn't about 'big Eck', it's bigger than that - but the BT campaign can't see past that. He's the First Minister, let him stand with Cameron, the Prime Minister. If Darling wants a live debate, as the spokesperson (though really he's Cameron's puppet here) of the Better Together campaign, put him up against Canavan. That offer is there I believe. With ref to your IFS study, the self same IFS lot also criticise the present government's plan to restore public finance with the largest cut to public service spending since 'at least' the 2nd World War. Nothing is financially cast in stone with either the Union or Independence. No one can definitively give those answers, only predictions, if they could 2008 would never have happened and we'd all be rolling in it. Again, more scare stories. not sure about scare stories it just seems strange everytime they are asked to debate the issue with other Scots who have opposing views to their own the snp seem to make into a us against them argument (Scotland v England) and to me personally it should not be about that. before you reply i know that all politicians from all divides use these tactics when it suits them however i believe this is the biggest decision to be taken in the next year or so that could have a massive impact on the UK as a whole. therefore it be treated as such. agreed, its not an england VS scotland thing, its a scotland VS scotland thing, cameron has made his feeling quite clear on the subject, so he has no debate to make. there is no need to try and convince the 'british' public what is best, but much more useful to let the Scots know which would be best, and thats why there needs to be a debate between the groups rather than politicians" agreed | |||
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" .............., cameron has made his feeling quite clear on the subject, so he has no debate to make. .............." On that basis Salmond, who has also made his feelings quite clear on the subject, has no debate to make either. | |||
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"If Scotland Won.. Would we Need .... New Passports.. New Driving Licence.. Border-Controls !! I know the driving licence / passport is kinda European etc - but would we need to Join Europe and Have the Currency.. called the Euro !! It has already been decided we would retain the pound and several of these documents may be replaced by new ones of course, but organically with the current ones remaining valid in the meantime. It is ridiculous and a pro-union tactic to suggest we would not remain within the EU. I like that you consider it Scotland 'winning' as I do tho!" There is no automatic right for Scotland to remain in Europe....fish face Salmonds...chief ton of the puddiin race......makes it up as he goes along, without asking the questions to the institution involved. Why anyone would want this one trick phoney running their country is beyond me | |||
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"........ There is no automatic right for Scotland to remain in Europe " Agreed, though the other 26 member states might wake upon the right side of bed that morning and ......... who knows. Equally, somewhere like Spain might just think 'if we accept Scotland that might just encourage the Basques or the Catalonians to get a wee bit uppity' and blackball Scotland. One no vote is all it takes. | |||
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" .............., cameron has made his feeling quite clear on the subject, so he has no debate to make. .............. On that basis Salmond, who has also made his feelings quite clear on the subject, has no debate to make either." i do not understand this because it seems that Cameron is damned if he does or damned if he doesn't. the snp want to change the status quo there are others within Scotland who do not want to change the status quo therefore should you not debate amongst yourselves first then after that debate is over you have your referendum which will then either give the snp the mandate to change the status quo or to leave it as it is. that seems a logical process to me. by insisting to debate with only Cameron then salmond to me does not have a strong argument and is using tub thumping tactics if Cameron did debate with him salmond would then accuse Cameron of interfering in the politics of Scotland. his tactics are as old as the hills and thankfully do not come in the world of business now as much as they used to. | |||
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" .............., cameron has made his feeling quite clear on the subject, so he has no debate to make. .............. On that basis Salmond, who has also made his feelings quite clear on the subject, has no debate to make either." fishface is the one making the argument, though, and the most noise. now, IF as you say, they both said Cam " want the Scots to stay in the union" Salmo "i want the split" and leave it at that, then let the public decide in a couple of years, thats fine. but its fishy doing all the squeaking and putting himself above debating the argument with those it will mostly affect, which are his own people. personally, i dont think it will make much difference to those living south of the border, unless we would need a passport to deliver goods up there | |||
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" .............., cameron has made his feeling quite clear on the subject, so he has no debate to make. .............. On that basis Salmond, who has also made his feelings quite clear on the subject, has no debate to make either. i do not understand this because it seems that Cameron is damned if he does or damned if he doesn't. the snp want to change the status quo there are others within Scotland who do not want to change the status quo therefore should you not debate amongst yourselves first then after that debate is over you have your referendum which will then either give the snp the mandate to change the status quo or to leave it as it is. that seems a logical process to me. by insisting to debate with only Cameron then salmond to me does not have a strong argument and is using tub thumping tactics if Cameron did debate with him salmond would then accuse Cameron of interfering in the politics of Scotland. his tactics are as old as the hills and thankfully do not come in the world of business now as much as they used to. " Salmond simply wants the limelight of sharing a stage with a 'world leader'. As for debating about changing the status quo, the answer has to be why? If I go into court as an innocent man and YOU want to prove me guilty, the onus is on you to make a case a jury (the electorate) will believe. If you can't do that, I remain innocent. I don't have to PROVE anything. The Yes campaign has no evidence. Every time they're asked for it they lie about having legal opinion then have to confess they don't - despite having paid £thousands to keep it secret. | |||
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" Salmond simply wants the limelight of sharing a stage with a 'world leader'. As for debating about changing the status quo, the answer has to be why? If I go into court as an innocent man and YOU want to prove me guilty, the onus is on you to make a case a jury (the electorate) will believe. If you can't do that, I remain innocent. I don't have to PROVE anything. The Yes campaign has no evidence. Every time they're asked for it they lie about having legal opinion then have to confess they don't - despite having paid £thousands to keep it secret." just on this point _nny, which opinion are you stating to be the INNOCENT man, just so i can work through the analogy myself. | |||
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" Salmond simply wants the limelight of sharing a stage with a 'world leader'. As for debating about changing the status quo, the answer has to be why? If I go into court as an innocent man and YOU want to prove me guilty, the onus is on you to make a case a jury (the electorate) will believe. If you can't do that, I remain innocent. I don't have to PROVE anything. The Yes campaign has no evidence. Every time they're asked for it they lie about having legal opinion then have to confess they don't - despite having paid £thousands to keep it secret. just on this point _nny, which opinion are you stating to be the INNOCENT man, just so i can work through the analogy myself. "I thought it was a metaphor and quite clear (if a little difficult to explain). | |||
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" .............., cameron has made his feeling quite clear on the subject, so he has no debate to make. .............. On that basis Salmond, who has also made his feelings quite clear on the subject, has no debate to make either. i do not understand this because it seems that Cameron is damned if he does or damned if he doesn't. the snp want to change the status quo there are others within Scotland who do not want to change the status quo therefore should you not debate amongst yourselves first then after that debate is over you have your referendum which will then either give the snp the mandate to change the status quo or to leave it as it is. that seems a logical process to me. by insisting to debate with only Cameron then salmond to me does not have a strong argument and is using tub thumping tactics if Cameron did debate with him salmond would then accuse Cameron of interfering in the politics of Scotland. his tactics are as old as the hills and thankfully do not come in the world of business now as much as they used to. Salmond simply wants the limelight of sharing a stage with a 'world leader'. As for debating about changing the status quo, the answer has to be why? If I go into court as an innocent man and YOU want to prove me guilty, the onus is on you to make a case a jury (the electorate) will believe. If you can't do that, I remain innocent. I don't have to PROVE anything. The Yes campaign has no evidence. Every time they're asked for it they lie about having legal opinion then have to confess they don't - despite having paid £thousands to keep it secret." i do not think the analogy of a court case is a fair one as as an innocent man your past misdemeanors cannot be heard in court as not to discriminate as you in your case. this is about the Scottish people making an informed decision based upon and being in full receipt of facts and details etc. | |||
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