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ON THE CHEAP !
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Is it not about time this goverment stepped back into reality , 2dead 1 SERIOUSLY ILL because this goverment want to cut our regular army ! TA sas indeed ! not to mention the good men we have lost in overseas conflicts , because ! things done on the cheap ! HOW MUCH IS A LIFE WORTH !!
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Is it not about time this goverment stepped back into reality , 2dead 1 SERIOUSLY ILL because this goverment want to cut our regular army ! TA sas indeed ! not to mention the good men we have lost in overseas conflicts , because ! things done on the cheap ! HOW MUCH IS A LIFE WORTH !!
I agree with you there!!! Xx
"
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The modern day SAS started as a TA unit. Try googling 21 (Artists Rifles). Special Forces Selection has to be arduous for a very good reason. Both 21 and 23 SAS are TA and only 22 is a regular unit.
The deaths are very sad and my thoughts are with their families, but please get your facts right before you gob off about the Military and don't use the deaths of 2 highly motivated individuals to make a political point. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Is it not about time this goverment stepped back into reality , 2dead 1 SERIOUSLY ILL because this goverment want to cut our regular army ! TA sas indeed ! not to mention the good men we have lost in overseas conflicts , because ! things done on the cheap ! HOW MUCH IS A LIFE WORTH !!
TA SAS is not a new cost cutting exercise. Bear Grylls was TA SAS years ago, for example. If these guys are capable and willing then good on em. However, I don't agree with the Penny pinching and cut backs for or forces"
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Sorry if my post upset you ! But as a serving soldier for many years as a pathfinder ! I do know what I am talking about , regular soldiers are far more highly trained than part timers ! And yes my thoughts are with the families !
Think the 20000 other full time serving squaddies would agree with me ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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With no disrespect intended to the 2 soldiers in question or their families loved ones or colleagues…..
But I doubt very much there was any serving member of parliament involved in the actual events that led to their tragic and untimely deaths,,,,
I feel anyone using this tragic example to proliferate their own private political vendetta is being highly disrespectful to the 2 individuals who were willing volunteers when they joined our armed forces and would have been well aware of the implications of a decision like that and all it entails ….
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"The modern day SAS started as a TA unit. Try googling 21 (Artists Rifles). Special Forces Selection has to be arduous for a very good reason. Both 21 and 23 SAS are TA and only 22 is a regular unit.
The deaths are very sad and my thoughts are with their families, but please get your facts right before you gob off about the Military and don't use the deaths of 2 highly motivated individuals to make a political point."
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sorry if my post upset you ! But as a serving soldier for many years as a pathfinder ! I do know what I am talking about , regular soldiers are far more highly trained than part timers ! And yes my thoughts are with the families !
Think the 20000 other full time serving squaddies would agree with me ! "
So, regular squaddies haven't collapsed or been injured when trying for the sas then? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Is it not about time this goverment stepped back into reality , 2dead 1 SERIOUSLY ILL because this goverment want to cut our regular army ! TA sas indeed ! not to mention the good men we have lost in overseas conflicts , because ! things done on the cheap ! HOW MUCH IS A LIFE WORTH !!
"
I'm afraid "this government" has nothing to do with this. TA SAS has been around for a while now and train alongside SAS during selection. As a serving Pathfinder you'll also know that although tragic deaths during training/exercises are not uncommon. This is a very poor way of making your dislike of a government known and is disrespectful to TA colleagues who will also see combat |
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"Sorry if my post upset you ! But as a serving soldier for many years as a pathfinder ! I do know what I am talking about , regular soldiers are far more highly trained than part timers ! And yes my thoughts are with the families !
Think the 20000 other full time serving squaddies would agree with me ! "
If you are a serving soldier I am surprised that you never knew that the TA SAS has been around for many a year... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Well... I'm not sure about this but according to the members of my family that have been in the Royal Marines, SAS, Black Watch and RAF. It is much much easier now than it was a few decades ago. They said this, not me :P I have 100% respect for our armed forces regardless. What annoys me is the government interfering, especially when it becomes bureaucratic! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Wouldn't it just be simpler, and cheaper, to bring them home from all but the key areas and actually DEFEND this country as and when required.
Instead of meddling in other peoples affairs?
Maybe Brian Clough had it correct, the best form of defence is attack, but his expertise was in football fgs not warmongering. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Wouldn't it just be simpler, and cheaper, to bring them home from all but the key areas and actually DEFEND this country as and when required.
Instead of meddling in other peoples affairs?
Maybe Brian Clough had it correct, the best form of defence is attack, but his expertise was in football fgs not warmongering. "
You could say that ,,,,, but surely backing away from a fight when you’ve got an aggressive opponent sends out defeatist signal that would never have helped us win either of the two world wars where we took the fight to our opponents and beat them on their own territories….
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
You could say that ,,,,, but surely backing away from a fight when you’ve got an aggressive opponent sends out defeatist signal that would never have helped us win either of the two world wars where we took the fight to our opponents and beat them on their own territories….
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A powerful opponent at that. Until the United States decided to enter and take all the credit. |
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There have, I believe, always been more TA SAS than regular SAS so I would suggest that the TA aspect to these tragic deaths is irrelevant. We should all really just wait for the relevant authorities to investigat, report and review the circumstances before pointing fingers about something the vast majority if us know virtually nothing.
These men were doing something quite amazing and beyond me in any circumstances quite frankly and they deserve our respect as do their families who I hope feel some pride in amongst their understandable grief and perhaps anger.
I am not a supporter of the government(s) which took us into many of the recent conflicts but will always be of the opinion that once deployed it while training all of our armed services deserve our support, respect and admiration for the job they do.
Endrant |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
The deaths are very sad and my thoughts are with their families, but please get your facts right before you gob off about the Military and don't use the deaths of 2 highly motivated individuals to make a political point."
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Just to mention a few things
1: the military don't just fight wars they peacekeep as well. The British army are one of the better ones at that (and I'm not British)
2: The army also prevent wars by being a deterrent
3: the army isn't just made up of "squaddies". It's got doctors, nurses,physios, dentists,engineers, transport specialists, supplies and support specialists all of which benefit the rest of society as well. Of these you also have specialists who are "attached" to special forces such as SAS and SBS (including believe it or not lawyers) who provide support roles in highly intense surroundings most of which you will never hear about.
These guys made the leap to try and do their bit, they died attempting selection (I'm assuming) and regardless of being TA or regular, the pressure and intensity and sheer physical effort required was something most of us would never begin to be able to cope with. |
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"Sorry if my post upset you ! But as a serving soldier for many years as a pathfinder ! I do know what I am talking about , regular soldiers are far more highly trained than part timers ! And yes my thoughts are with the families !
Think the 20000 other full time serving squaddies would agree with me ! "
Does that mean that the other 80000 would disagree with you given that the British Army is currently 100000 strong? Personally I would say that someone with the mental robustness to push himself as hard physically as these two did rather than wrap is prime Special Forces material.
Being ex-PF you should know how hard Endurance and the Fan Dance etc are. Doesn't matter if you are TA or reg, none of the tabs on selection are any easier. Chris Ryan was TA SAS and he tabbed 200km through enemy territory to Syria when his patrol got compromised and went on the run. |
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Hmmmm OP I don't know what is more disturbing, your total silence or your lack of knowledge about the British Army that you claim to have served in. I would expect someone who had served on PF which lets face it, is on the cusp of UKSF to be better informed. Especially considering the amount of time PF spend practicing mobo drills etc with the blades. Please correct me if I am wrong. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm assuming the op was expecting a tide of anti govt, pro regulary army rants and possibly a single female to be impressed with his special forces knowledge and drop her knickers for him. However, it appears to have backfired.
Although regulars take the piss out of TA and vice versa they'd never have used the death of soldiers in this particular way. Not at least without some respect for the soldiers themselves.
I think the op should apologise to the deceased and their families for suggesting that they weren't proper soldiers and for not at least paying his respects.
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Whilst it is sad and tragic that the two guys died, no blame in my opinion can be apportioned to anyone.
1. This is a voluntary course, you do not get told to do it.
2. They pushed themselves to the extreme in hot weather.
3. They had the right to stop.
The fear of failure in the army pushes you to do things that you would not normally do in civilian life.
As I say sad and tragic but no blame. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Well... I'm not sure about this but according to the members of my family that have been in the Royal Marines, SAS, Black Watch and RAF. It is much much easier now than it was a few decades ago. They said this, not me :P I have 100% respect for our armed forces regardless. What annoys me is the government interfering, especially when it becomes bureaucratic!"
Two things
People always believe things were harder when they did them and today's kids have it easy. The people doing it now will say exactly the same thing to their kids!
Secondly the military serve HM government therefore they have to interfere and when it comes to bureaucracy the military could teach any government how to slow things down perfectly! I'm afraid it has nothing to do with this government, that's always been the case since the first regiments were formed. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Is it not about time this goverment stepped back into reality , 2dead 1 SERIOUSLY ILL because this goverment want to cut our regular army ! TA sas indeed ! not to mention the good men we have lost in overseas conflicts , because ! things done on the cheap ! HOW MUCH IS A LIFE WORTH !!
"
The Ta is a good thing and i think it should continue x |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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First and foremost lets ignore the ta aspect for a second.
It's a well publicised fact that a least on of the two that died has served tours in Iraq and afghan. So would have been an experienced soldier.
Also any member of the military going for sas would not just have gone on the selection process they would have been assessed numerous time before both physically and mentally. They would have also undergone build up training on unit level too.
It is a very sad day when any of our armed forces dies but ultimately these guys where attempting one of the hardest selection processes in the world and it is just a tragic accident with no one to blame.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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THINK some people got the wrong impression , These guys , should of been monitored more frequently ! but as stated in the press ! and other avenues , we did not monitor the situation or there progress frequently enough ! DUE to not enough bodies available ! WE in the past have lost men through cheap ! AMERICAN ammunition , WRONG kit ! even wrong vehicles , |
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"THINK some people got the wrong impression , These guys , should of been monitored more frequently ! but as stated in the press ! and other avenues , we did not monitor the situation or there progress frequently enough ! DUE to not enough bodies available ! WE in the past have lost men through cheap ! AMERICAN ammunition , WRONG kit ! even wrong vehicles , "
You forgot to put FACT after it so we don't believe you. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"THINK some people got the wrong impression , These guys , should of been monitored more frequently ! but as stated in the press ! and other avenues , we did not monitor the situation or there progress frequently enough ! DUE to not enough bodies available ! WE in the past have lost men through cheap ! AMERICAN ammunition , WRONG kit ! even wrong vehicles , "
Apart from the fact we don't know exact circumstances of the deaths, this was not due to wrong kit or American rounds or indeed wrong vehicles. I'm a little disturbed that your knowledge of these things doesn't match your claim to be a PF. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"THINK some people got the wrong impression , These guys , should of been monitored more frequently ! but as stated in the press ! and other avenues , we did not monitor the situation or there progress frequently enough ! DUE to not enough bodies available ! WE in the past have lost men through cheap ! AMERICAN ammunition , WRONG kit ! even wrong vehicles , "
Can i ask what other avenues your talking about? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sorry if my post upset you ! But as a serving soldier for many years as a pathfinder ! I do know what I am talking about , regular soldiers are far more highly trained than part timers ! And yes my thoughts are with the families !
Think the 20000 other full time serving squaddies would agree with me ! "
As a regular soldier you would also know that deaths like this are not new, far from it. The first one I saw was in early 1980's. Heat stroke, fit regular soldier. Also your views of the TA and other reserves harks back to outdated thinking. My experience with reserves has been far better than some regulars I had misfortune to work with.
This could easily have been a regular soldier. Normally heat stress is down to poor leadership and individuals misjudging the environment they are in etc.
Pull up a sandbag folks |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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For Op, don't forget to slag of reserve specialist. You know the field hospital and aeromedical evacuation teams, after all aren't they amateurs? Oh no, how could I forget their years of trauma experience which has saved the life's of countless regulars over the last decade. Reserve badgering really grips my shit! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"For Op, don't forget to slag of reserve specialist. You know the field hospital and aeromedical evacuation teams, after all aren't they amateurs? Oh no, how could I forget their years of trauma experience which has saved the life's of countless regulars over the last decade. Reserve badgering really grips my shit!"
Field hospitals rely on reservists. In fact the most annoying thing about TA doctors and nurses is their wanting to put Mess Dress on at the drop of a hat |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"For Op, don't forget to slag of reserve specialist. You know the field hospital and aeromedical evacuation teams, after all aren't they amateurs? Oh no, how could I forget their years of trauma experience which has saved the life's of countless regulars over the last decade. Reserve badgering really grips my shit!
Field hospitals rely on reservists. In fact the most annoying thing about TA doctors and nurses is their wanting to put Mess Dress on at the drop of a hat"
But some are just so hit in mess dress, it's the mini medals that does it for us  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"For Op, don't forget to slag of reserve specialist. You know the field hospital and aeromedical evacuation teams, after all aren't they amateurs? Oh no, how could I forget their years of trauma experience which has saved the life's of countless regulars over the last decade. Reserve badgering really grips my shit!
Field hospitals rely on reservists. In fact the most annoying thing about TA doctors and nurses is their wanting to put Mess Dress on at the drop of a hat
But some are just so hit in mess dress, it's the mini medals that does it for us "
And remember if two drs turn up dressed the same one has to go and change  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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my daughter is a serving reservist , in the field hospitals ! so i do know how much we do rely on them !and as was previously stated !NOT BY ME ! i might add ! misjudging the terrain /conditions , may be the answer , however , i DO know that only half of the usual assesors where on the beacons , that fatefull , DAY !! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I was talking to a military man about this,I did question whether the deaths of those 2 soldiers could have been prevented,his response was as tragic as it is those boys were on exercise and they pack whatever they think they'll need and that includes water,they have to carry the weight and its their responsibility as soldiers to make sure they have adequate supplies to survive
I tend to agree with the theory of that but if one of those poor boys had been mine I think would be asking a million questions,the first one being how? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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OP I still feel your thoughts on this are a bit off kilter.
I very much doubt that they only had half the required manpower to carry out this exercise.
It's selection for the sas so they cannot be supervised the whole time otherwise it would be the DE award.
It's a tragic event that could happen in any walk of live.
For eg how many construction workers died last year at work ?
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