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Cost of trial
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Good news about the life term for the scumbag who killed the 2 police officers and a father and son
However the cost of transporting him to preston crown court from jail in Manchester every day was 5.5 million
Surely this is a waste of money
The escort drove up past my way every day with helicopters , vans and armed guards
Surely it would be more cost effective to do the trial closer or make him stay in Preston????
Doesn't make sense |
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the trial has to happen where the crime took place i believe and there may not be a prison close by that ca accomodate the cateory of prisoner he was being held on remand as.
better to transport him in the correct manner than ave him in a less secure prison and risk him escaping surely? |
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I'm not having it that they can't keep one man safe for less than 5.5 million
You could hire 10 special forces soldiers to stand guard at a travel lodge 24 hours a day for far less and just as secure
The van transporting him even crashed once !! How the hell they manage that?
5.5 million pounds is a disgrace |
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"because no driver is infallible maybe??
and if you want a man capable of murder holed up in a travelodge then you are a madman!!!"
That was tongue in cheek
Merely suggesting that if the police force , army , security services can't ensure 1 man is guarded safely without the need of daily transport with all that costs then there is something wrong
I'm just sick to death of how these things costs . We as a nation cut cut cut from the most vulnerable families yet think nothing of spending that to transport a scum bag like him
I get what your saying about protecting the public but come on let's have some common sense here |
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No way would he escape if guarded by special forces
We have thousands of soldiers who could do a job of keeping him guarded
Come on .. 1 man we are talking about !
And while in the subject is in the mail and mail online that the crash that took place between the vans has now resulted in the prisoners and guards claiming compensation for whip lash injuries
Talk about a slap in the face !!! |
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"Build courts next to jails, as an annex.
No transport costs.
Job done.
Thank you thank you
Well said
He never even went on the witness stand !!
Surely video link would suffice !!!"
Video link is used but not for things like murder trials so all the money they save on other escorts can be used on murder ones haha |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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10 special forces 24 hrs a day is approx 40 (3 rotas of 10 people plus a backup group for contingency planning) people plus back up intelligence logistics training time and so on an so forth. Added to which you'd have to billet them feed them and provide the proper kit for the job. Would probably come to about £ 5.5 million along with the fact that special forces aren't trained to do this kind of job. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Army pay isn't great. Even special forces. All 10 would not be paid 24hrs a day. They work in shifts. They could have done the whole thing for thousands, not millions. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"10 special forces 24 hrs a day is approx 40 (3 rotas of 10 people plus a backup group for contingency planning) people plus back up intelligence logistics training time and so on an so forth. Added to which you'd have to billet them feed them and provide the proper kit for the job. Would probably come to about £ 5.5 million along with the fact that special forces aren't trained to do this kind of job. "
Special forces might not be trained in this, but the military police certainly are. Too many people are trying to cash in under the H&S and training banners. It doesn't wash. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Army pay isn't great. Even special forces. All 10 would not be paid 24hrs a day. They work in shifts. They could have done the whole thing for thousands, not millions."
It's not just 10 blokes though. Its 10 plus another 3 groups of 10 fo cover shifts of 8 hours, plus a back up team, plus theyd have top cover as well, helicopters dont come
Cheap. You think special forces or Any military op is just the boys on the ground? Medical backup, food, accom, transport, training, etc etc seriously it would cost more than thousands. |
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can just imagine the right wing press funnily enough like the daily hell when the story gets out that the Police have been moved to one side and Special Forces used for something like this..
'Police have lost controle of the streets' type headline..
or the cunting off the Home Secretary would give to whichever Chief Constable asked the same..
the use of Armed forces on the streets have to be 'signed off' by the Home Sec..
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"10 special forces 24 hrs a day is approx 40 (3 rotas of 10 people plus a backup group for contingency planning) people plus back up intelligence logistics training time and so on an so forth. Added to which you'd have to billet them feed them and provide the proper kit for the job. Would probably come to about £ 5.5 million along with the fact that special forces aren't trained to do this kind of job.
Special forces might not be trained in this, but the military police certainly are. Too many people are trying to cash in under the H&S and training banners. It doesn't wash."
No they're not and its not health and safety ffs. Training is looking at routes drilling doing something they're not trained to do normally having the correct processes and plans in place making sure they can all do them etc. |
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"Army pay isn't great. Even special forces. All 10 would not be paid 24hrs a day. They work in shifts. They could have done the whole thing for thousands, not millions."
pay was for being 'on duty' when i was in, that was from 00.01 to 23.59 as i recall..
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"Army pay isn't great. Even special forces. All 10 would not be paid 24hrs a day. They work in shifts. They could have done the whole thing for thousands, not millions."
According to the OP they would use 10 special forces. As another poster pit there would need to be shifts to ensure there was 10 on cover at all times. I'm guessing special forces get paid more than your average spotty oik that signs up at 16. So the costs will add up. It's not just their pay but their accommodation their food bills etc they will all need covering and I am guessing the armywill want a wedge for bailing tthe prison service out as well.
The costs keep coming. I'm betting there will be an expenses policy in there as well to compensate them for being away from home over night and their travel yo and from their posting.
The best solution would be to hold him at a local prison and that does happen but sometimes it's not possible based on category of prisoner, capacity of local prison etc
The prison service put a lot of money into training for their jobs and the safe transport of prisoners. That would need to be trained tothe armed forces (and wwe've all seen the stories of how prisoners in Afghan have allegedly been treated!)
I think it's a bit damned if they do damned if they don't to be honest. If they subcontract it out to the armed forces they'll get crucified if something goes wrong. If they keep it in house they get crucified because of the cost. |
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"Army pay isn't great. Even special forces. All 10 would not be paid 24hrs a day. They work in shifts. They could have done the whole thing for thousands, not millions.
It's not just 10 blokes though. Its 10 plus another 3 groups of 10 fo cover shifts of 8 hours, plus a back up team, plus theyd have top cover as well, helicopters dont come
Cheap. You think special forces or Any military op is just the boys on the ground? Medical backup, food, accom, transport, training, etc etc seriously it would cost more than thousands. "
Your all missing the point
We wouldn't need a team of 40 , helicopters , tanks . Ground to air missiles
It's one man who is chained up
Surely they could have a cell in Preston crown court that could be used
Got to be cheaper and less likely of escape that way !
It's a joke
And anyone who thinks that 5.5 million is justified is mad
We are cutting millions of front line staff in hospitals and family support and social care . And we have to accept that there's nowt we can do
Yet we can argue for the cost of transport to court for a man who barley said more than his own name ????
Come on please |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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To bloody right. One man moved from one town to another, in a prison van. Couple of armed guards inside. He was a scrote who nobody was even trying to spring. Five and a half million pounds is unjustifiable. Too many experts have said well you need thirty police cars, 200 officers, a helicopter and by the way, it's all on overtime. It stinks. It is totally OTT. You don't get that much police protection when moving millions of pounds or gold bullion. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"the trial has to happen where the crime took place "
Quite the opposite is becoming common in Scotland. Trials are being held well away from the location of the crime to try to cut down on witness/ juror intimidation.
"i believe and there may not be a prison close by that ca accomodate the cateory of prisoner he was being held on remand as.
better to transport him in the correct manner than ave him in a less secure prison and risk him escaping surely?"
A large number of Sheriff Courts in Scotland are slated for closure meaning more and more accused will have to be shipped around the country on a daily basis + greater costs will be incurred getting witnesses to and from court. |
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"To bloody right. One man moved from one town to another, in a prison van. Couple of armed guards inside. He was a scrote who nobody was even trying to spring. Five and a half million pounds is unjustifiable. Too many experts have said well you need thirty police cars, 200 officers, a helicopter and by the way, it's all on overtime. It stinks. It is totally OTT. You don't get that much police protection when moving millions of pounds or gold bullion."
Well said |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Army pay isn't great. Even special forces. All 10 would not be paid 24hrs a day. They work in shifts. They could have done the whole thing for thousands, not millions.
It's not just 10 blokes though. Its 10 plus another 3 groups of 10 fo cover shifts of 8 hours, plus a back up team, plus theyd have top cover as well, helicopters dont come
Cheap. You think special forces or Any military op is just the boys on the ground? Medical backup, food, accom, transport, training, etc etc seriously it would cost more than thousands.
Your all missing the point
We wouldn't need a team of 40 , helicopters , tanks . Ground to air missiles
It's one man who is chained up
Surely they could have a cell in Preston crown court that could be used
Got to be cheaper and less likely of escape that way !
It's a joke
And anyone who thinks that 5.5 million is justified is mad
We are cutting millions of front line staff in hospitals and family support and social care . And we have to accept that there's nowt we can do
Yet we can argue for the cost of transport to court for a man who barley said more than his own name ????
Come on please "
All defendants are entitled to face the prosecution. Locking him up in the court holding cell might lead to an appeal that his rights have been breached. Whatever we feel, in law he was innocent until proven guilty. I agree it is a ridiculously high cost for transport but I think the security was less about him escaping and more to prevent him being attacked. |
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"To bloody right. One man moved from one town to another, in a prison van. Couple of armed guards inside. He was a scrote who nobody was even trying to spring. Five and a half million pounds is unjustifiable. Too many experts have said well you need thirty police cars, 200 officers, a helicopter and by the way, it's all on overtime. It stinks. It is totally OTT. You don't get that much police protection when moving millions of pounds or gold bullion."
that might be because gold doesnt run the risk of escaping and murdering people   |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"To bloody right. One man moved from one town to another, in a prison van. Couple of armed guards inside. He was a scrote who nobody was even trying to spring. Five and a half million pounds is unjustifiable. Too many experts have said well you need thirty police cars, 200 officers, a helicopter and by the way, it's all on overtime. It stinks. It is totally OTT. You don't get that much police protection when moving millions of pounds or gold bullion.
that might be because gold doesnt run the risk of escaping and murdering people "
How does a man in chains escape from an armored van, locked from the outside and that contains armed guards? His only method of escape is by being sprung. That has to be done externally. That was why I made the point about the gold, even that doesn't require such a strong police guard. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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They were gangsters and armed robbers who could afford to pay off someone to try it. He was a scrote who was despised by everyone. Either way, you still did not need ALL that escort around one van. It was totally OTT. Armed guards would suffice. If people know that they are under armed guard, they won't risk going in to free him.
Besides which. All that traffic nearly made me late for work a few times! |
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By *ollie_JCouple
over a year ago
London |
It's a fully absorbed cost not the amount a person receives
Ie a ex special forces sayin a high of £600 a day then the cost of his portion of his comapnies building costs, rent, rates, secretary, payroll, accounts receivable, payable, the postroom lad, the canteen costs for the other parts of the companys, blah, blah, blah .. Err it does add up!! |
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"They were gangsters and armed robbers who could afford to pay off someone to try it. He was a scrote who was despised by everyone. Either way, you still did not need ALL that escort around one van. It was totally OTT. Armed guards would suffice. If people know that they are under armed guard, they won't risk going in to free him.
Besides which. All that traffic nearly made me late for work a few times!"
nearly!!!
lets get the to reduce the escort and see how you feel when a murderer escapes eh....bet that will definitely make you late for work pmsl  |
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as cregan used grenades in the attacks on the police officers and the early murders on rival gang that were the father an son I think sometimes it's better not to take risks as surely he was never working completely alone |
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"They were gangsters and armed robbers who could afford to pay off someone to try it. He was a scrote who was despised by everyone. Either way, you still did not need ALL that escort around one van. It was totally OTT. Armed guards would suffice. If people know that they are under armed guard, they won't risk going in to free him.
Besides which. All that traffic nearly made me late for work a few times!
nearly!!!
lets get the to reduce the escort and see how you feel when a murderer escapes eh....bet that will definitely make you late for work pmsl "
Sorry to say this but it seems to be the case of paranoi
We are led to believe that there are men out there on every corner waiting to free the likes of scum like him from an armed guard moving at 70 miles an hour .. It's just not true !
And if it was does that not warrant keeping the fucker locked up and trailed by video link??
We got technology that can send rockets and drones into Afghanistan steered from a base in the uk
Surely we can arrange one man to stand trial via a link or to guard him cheaper that 5.5 million ???
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"Id like to know what this £5.5 million cost consisted of. I would anticipate the legal costs as well"
Nope that was the cost of transporting him from
Manchester to preston and back every singe day of the trial
And guess what .. He never even had to get on the witness stand
To top it all off the van crashed and now there are compensation claims for whip lash !
Talk about rubbing salt into taxpayers wounds |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The ridiculous costs are just part of what has become acceptable. If the government and it's departments are involved, there is no questioning anything and money is no object. I am not suggesting it go out to G4S, gods forbid, just some rational questions need to be asked by the relevant people. Because I don't think they are being. It's only tax payers money, it's a bottomless pit.....isn't it? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"oh an wasnt there two guys recently sprung on way to court in Salford during rush hour?
Yes , so does that not give more reason to not risk transporting him at all ???"
It is a VERY silly state of affairs when he could have been tried where he was being held. Why not move him in one of 3 vans with armed guards in the one with him in. All take a slightly different route. Is anyone going to risk breaking him out under those circumstances? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"oh an wasnt there two guys recently sprung on way to court in Salford during rush hour?
Yes , so does that not give more reason to not risk transporting him at all ???"
Dont those on trial always attend? I thought video link was mainly used for victims, witnesses etc |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Compensation is insurance not tax payer and I'd be interested to know where the figures came from and what they consist of and indeed how accurate they are given trial finished today. |
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"oh an wasnt there two guys recently sprung on way to court in Salford during rush hour?
Yes , so does that not give more reason to not risk transporting him at all ???
Dont those on trial always attend? I thought video link was mainly used for victims, witnesses etc"
And god forbid we can change things around to suit ? |
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Surely that would increase the costs though plus where are the extra guards coming from to drive the other 2 vans? You'd need a full compliment to make the decoy look legit and a fake prisoner.
It's not perfect and it is a lot of money I grant you that but apart from video link which someone has already said why it can't work right now none of the other options are proving much less expensive really.
Perhaps we should just not arrest criminals to save money? |
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"oh an wasnt there two guys recently sprung on way to court in Salford during rush hour?
Yes , so does that not give more reason to not risk transporting him at all ???
Dont those on trial always attend? I thought video link was mainly used for victims, witnesses etc
And god forbid we can change things around to suit ? "
Trouble is these pesky things called human rights. You can't just change things Willy nilly these days. It all has to be fair in the eyes of the law. |
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"Surely that would increase the costs though plus where are the extra guards coming from to drive the other 2 vans? You'd need a full compliment to make the decoy look legit and a fake prisoner.
It's not perfect and it is a lot of money I grant you that but apart from video link which someone has already said why it can't work right now none of the other options are proving much less expensive really.
Perhaps we should just not arrest criminals to save money? "
Stop talking nonsense
We aren't suggesting that at all
We merely saying there are cheaper ways and when the country is on its ass cutting front line staff and services to vulnerable people its a disgrace |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Compensation is insurance not tax payer and I'd be interested to know where the figures came from and what they consist of and indeed how accurate they are given trial finished today."
If the reports of a crash are true then it would be covered by the motor insurance and not the taxpayer as rightly pointed out! |
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"Compensation is insurance not tax payer and I'd be interested to know where the figures came from and what they consist of and indeed how accurate they are given trial finished today.
If the reports of a crash are true then it would be covered by the motor insurance and not the taxpayer as rightly pointed out! "
Ok . Not really arsed , just think its another slap in the face that's all |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Surely that would increase the costs though plus where are the extra guards coming from to drive the other 2 vans? You'd need a full compliment to make the decoy look legit and a fake prisoner.
It's not perfect and it is a lot of money I grant you that but apart from video link which someone has already said why it can't work right now none of the other options are proving much less expensive really.
Perhaps we should just not arrest criminals to save money? "
I meant just have the vans and the guards in the vans, don't even bother with the escorts. But as for videolink, it makes the most sense. There is no reason why he has to be there in person.
If he gets sent down straight away, he will only have to go BACK to the same prison he has just arrived from. It's the same nonsense that keeps courts using antiquated language and wearing silly costumes.
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"oh an wasnt there two guys recently sprung on way to court in Salford during rush hour?
Yes , so does that not give more reason to not risk transporting him at all ???
Dont those on trial always attend? I thought video link was mainly used for victims, witnesses etc
And god forbid we can change things around to suit ?
Trouble is these pesky things called human rights. You can't just change things Willy nilly these days. It all has to be fair in the eyes of the law. "
The same human rights that is allowing Abu katada to take the piss and cost this country millions more pounds
Unbelievable
We have no money yet squander it on the likes of people like this
It's a crazy world |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Good news about the life term for the scumbag who killed the 2 police officers and a father and son
However the cost of transporting him to preston crown court from jail in Manchester every day was 5.5 million
Surely this is a waste of money
The escort drove up past my way every day with helicopters , vans and armed guards
Surely it would be more cost effective to do the trial closer or make him stay in Preston????
Doesn't make sense"
Yeah would have made sense to have hom in preston nick a stone throw from the crown court there.:... |
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"Good news about the life term for the scumbag who killed the 2 police officers and a father and son
However the cost of transporting him to preston crown court from jail in Manchester every day was 5.5 million
Surely this is a waste of money
The escort drove up past my way every day with helicopters , vans and armed guards
Surely it would be more cost effective to do the trial closer or make him stay in Preston????
Doesn't make sense
Yeah would have made sense to have hom in preston nick a stone throw from the crown court there.:..."
Providing they had the capacity and facilities to hold him. |
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"Good news about the life term for the scumbag who killed the 2 police officers and a father and son
However the cost of transporting him to preston crown court from jail in Manchester every day was 5.5 million
Surely this is a waste of money
The escort drove up past my way every day with helicopters , vans and armed guards
Surely it would be more cost effective to do the trial closer or make him stay in Preston????
Doesn't make sense
Yeah would have made sense to have hom in preston nick a stone throw from the crown court there.:..."
Finally someone with an ounce of common sense !! |
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"https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dale_cregan_trial_police_costs_2
That doesn't tell us anything as the request was made in April before the trial concluded
I wonder why they refused?"
Because the trial wasn't concluded and so they could disclose the figures. It also says that they intend to make the costs available following the conclusion of the trial so any time in the next few weeks then. Wonder how The daily fail got their figures before they were released?  |
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"https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dale_cregan_trial_police_costs_2
That doesn't tell us anything as the request was made in April before the trial concluded
I wonder why they refused?
Because the trial wasn't concluded and so they could disclose the figures. It also says that they intend to make the costs available following the conclusion of the trial so any time in the next few weeks then. Wonder how The daily fail got their figures before they were released? "
I heard the figures on north west news
Not from a paper |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I have a lot hate relationship with that site
I love the gossip page albeit its full of crap but I have their continual insistence in stoking up their readerships discontent for the Government
I acknowledge this Country is far from prefect but more accurate reporting would make it seem a damn site better
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dale_cregan_trial_police_costs_2
That doesn't tell us anything as the request was made in April before the trial concluded
I wonder why they refused?
Because the trial wasn't concluded and so they could disclose the figures. It also says that they intend to make the costs available following the conclusion of the trial so any time in the next few weeks then. Wonder how The daily fail got their figures before they were released?
I heard the figures on north west news
Not from a paper "
Principal remains however nothing is accurate |
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"https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dale_cregan_trial_police_costs_2
That doesn't tell us anything as the request was made in April before the trial concluded
I wonder why they refused?
Because the trial wasn't concluded and so they could disclose the figures. It also says that they intend to make the costs available following the conclusion of the trial so any time in the next few weeks then. Wonder how The daily fail got their figures before they were released?
I heard the figures on north west news
Not from a paper "
But still before official figures have been released. |
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"https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dale_cregan_trial_police_costs_2
That doesn't tell us anything as the request was made in April before the trial concluded
I wonder why they refused?
Because the trial wasn't concluded and so they could disclose the figures. It also says that they intend to make the costs available following the conclusion of the trial so any time in the next few weeks then. Wonder how The daily fail got their figures before they were released?
I heard the figures on north west news
Not from a paper
But still before official figures have been released."
who knows ? It's still a disgrace whoever tells us |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dale_cregan_trial_police_costs_2
That doesn't tell us anything as the request was made in April before the trial concluded
I wonder why they refused?
Because the trial wasn't concluded and so they could disclose the figures. It also says that they intend to make the costs available following the conclusion of the trial so any time in the next few weeks then. Wonder how The daily fail got their figures before they were released? "
I would rather figures were obtained by investigative journalism than through waiting for a government press release. I know which ones I would believe. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"that all
how bout the death penalty
the justice system sucks in the uk"
why does it suck? the guy will never be allowed out of prison. If you have a problem with the lack of a death penalty criticise the Government
People constantly criticise the UK system but show me a Country where it works better?
It is one of the most developed in the world which it quite rightly should be given how developed the UK is. I think one people dont realise is the level of corruption amongst officials in other Countries |
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"https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dale_cregan_trial_police_costs_2
That doesn't tell us anything as the request was made in April before the trial concluded
I wonder why they refused?
Because the trial wasn't concluded and so they could disclose the figures. It also says that they intend to make the costs available following the conclusion of the trial so any time in the next few weeks then. Wonder how The daily fail got their figures before they were released?
I would rather figures were obtained by investigative journalism than through waiting for a government press release. I know which ones I would believe."
Investigative or sensationalist??? That's a whole different thing lol
I don't really trust much that's put in newspapers these days. Not after everything that has gone on recently. Sensationalism sells these days. People hate the government so any scandalous story about emotive subjects get blown all out of proportion.
Who knows, maybe the figure is correct, maybe it isn't. Yes it is a lot of money but it's spent now. At the moment they have to attend trial, change can't happen overnight just because we want it to. It has to be proven a fair trial can be given when using video link etc.
There must be a reason why he couldn't have been placed nearer as you are right it is more dangerous transporting him everyday but until we are furnished with the facts all we can do is assume reasons why. |
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"that all
how bout the death penalty
the justice system sucks in the uk
why does it suck? the guy will never be allowed out of prison. If you have a problem with the lack of a death penalty criticise the Government
People constantly criticise the UK system but show me a Country where it works better?
It is one of the most developed in the world which it quite rightly should be given how developed the UK is. I think one people dont realise is the level of corruption amongst officials in other Countries"
I agree with you , however I do think there could be great changes that would improve it and make it more cost effective ! |
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"that all
how bout the death penalty
the justice system sucks in the uk"
Ask America how well the death penalty works and how quickly. There are people on death row longer than a life sentence because they lodge appeal after appeal. |
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"https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dale_cregan_trial_police_costs_2
That doesn't tell us anything as the request was made in April before the trial concluded
I wonder why they refused?
Because the trial wasn't concluded and so they could disclose the figures. It also says that they intend to make the costs available following the conclusion of the trial so any time in the next few weeks then. Wonder how The daily fail got their figures before they were released?
I would rather figures were obtained by investigative journalism than through waiting for a government press release. I know which ones I would believe.
Investigative or sensationalist??? That's a whole different thing lol
I don't really trust much that's put in newspapers these days. Not after everything that has gone on recently. Sensationalism sells these days. People hate the government so any scandalous story about emotive subjects get blown all out of proportion.
Who knows, maybe the figure is correct, maybe it isn't. Yes it is a lot of money but it's spent now. At the moment they have to attend trial, change can't happen overnight just because we want it to. It has to be proven a fair trial can be given when using video link etc.
There must be a reason why he couldn't have been placed nearer as you are right it is more dangerous transporting him everyday but until we are furnished with the facts all we can do is assume reasons why. "
Because sometimes we are afraid of change
I could think of a dozen things that need changing and have ideas that would be better and more cost effective
But Who the feck am I ? |
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"Become someone then!
Only way you can effect change is to take action!
problem with this country is we all moan but no-one votes etc "
I've been guilty of not voting before because I have no clue who I am voting for. No one canvasses any more ad no one ready puts across any clear points. It's all just point scoring and finger pointing and quite often resembles a playground in the media. I just want yo know shafted parties are going y do ad how so I can make a decision lol |
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"Become someone then!
Only way you can effect change is to take action!
problem with this country is we all moan but no-one votes etc "
I vote and I have a job that I live and is worthwhile
So when I say who the feck am I
It's in relation to changing thing like our ancient laws
Not a dig at myself your honor |
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