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Female doctors
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
Took this from the start of an article in the Daily Wail:
"Female doctors are placing a huge burden on the National Health Service because they have children and prefer to work part-time, a health minister suggested today.
Anna Soubry said there were ‘unintended consequences’ to a boom in the number of women training to become doctors.
Labour said the comments were 'insulting to women' while GPs' leaders said problems in the NHS could not be blamed for the problems in the NHS."
How depressing. The best doctors I have had have all been female with the exception of my consultant surgeon. |
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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago
Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum |
The Daily Fail being misogynistic? Surely not!!
We need more female doctors, seeing as male doctors have decided to wash their hands of female contraception and similar. Being told by a male doctor who has gone through the exact same training as a female doctor that he couldn't help with mine and my daughters menstruation problems was one of the more perplexing visits to my surgery I've had.  |
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"I've always thought that part time work favoured employers...so I am surprised at the comment....I might be mis-informed!  "
I find it a dismaying point - women again slagging off other women - basically. Jeez. |
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"The Daily Fail being misogynistic? Surely not!!
We need more female doctors, seeing as male doctors have decided to wash their hands of female contraception and similar. Being told by a male doctor who has gone through the exact same training as a female doctor that he couldn't help with mine and my daughters menstruation problems was one of the more perplexing visits to my surgery I've had. "
I love the Dail Wail - like to see what the enemy has to say! I read it along with a lot of other papers, daily, if I can. Really interesting to see different viewpoints to the same stories. |
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"In what way is this placing a burden on the NHS? Did the article say? How strange, but some newspapers like to blame every problem on one of three groups women, immigrants and homosexuals."
It's in today's Mail Online - I can't post the link though. |
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I'll go and have a look later. My surgery was a female only practice but they now have a male gp who calls himself the willy doctor.
I have to say that I have had very good treatment from both sexes and very poor from both. |
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By *igSuki81Man
over a year ago
Retirement Village |
"Took this from the start of an article in the Daily Wail....."
Sorry you lost me the moment you mentioned the source of your story. What utter idiots work at that stale rag passing itself as a "NEWS"paper 
Women have proven time and time again that they are just as capable as men in the world of work and if anything they have shown themselves to be better than their male counterparts at times.
I thought the NHS and many other public and private sector employers allowed flexible working so whats the point of the article |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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i like being able to see a female doctor sometimes but i think if they are going to keep getting pregnant and taking time off because of their kids then they shouldnt become doctors.
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"i like being able to see a female doctor sometimes but i think if they are going to keep getting pregnant and taking time off because of their kids then they shouldnt become doctors.
"
Men do - so why can't women? Simply because, due to their biology, many women need to take more time, they should not be penalised for it. This is the type of thinking we have been fighting for more than 200 years! And now, here we are, in the 21st century with other WOMEN saying what men have been doing for all that time as a means to keep us 'in our place'. |
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"Took this from the start of an article in the Daily Wail.....
Sorry you lost me the moment you mentioned the source of your story. What utter idiots work at that stale rag passing itself as a "NEWS"paper
Women have proven time and time again that they are just as capable as men in the world of work and if anything they have shown themselves to be better than their male counterparts at times.
I thought the NHS and many other public and private sector employers allowed flexible working so whats the point of the article "
I read the Mail along with a lot of other papers - it does not mean that I agree with what is written. |
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Hmmmm . . . let me see . . . if a man says it, he's an ignorant dinosaur, living in the 12th century. If a woman says it, she should be ashamed but let's blame the paper for what printing what she said.
Or maybe we should try to understand what she meant - maybe she was simply airing an inconvenient truth that the NHS is better served by male doctors than female ones. Perhaps she meant because female doctors take more time off because of their kids, or because they are less flexible, or do less overtime, or bring their relationship problems to work more than men do, are actually more likely to make medical mistakes, or who-knows-what . . .
I'm not a minister, and therefore don't have access to the information. You probably don't either.
Stop carping and get back to those dishes  |
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"Hmmmm . . . let me see . . . if a man says it, he's an ignorant dinosaur, living in the 12th century. If a woman says it, she should be ashamed but let's blame the paper for what printing what she said.
Or maybe we should try to understand what she meant - maybe she was simply airing an inconvenient truth that the NHS is better served by male doctors than female ones. Perhaps she meant because female doctors take more time off because of their kids, or because they are less flexible, or do less overtime, or bring their relationship problems to work more than men do, are actually more likely to make medical mistakes, or who-knows-what . . .
I'm not a minister, and therefore don't have access to the information. You probably don't either.
Stop carping and get back to those dishes "
I didn't call anyone a dinosaur and actually am criticising these women. |
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
And here's the other side of the media. From The Guardian:
"The health minister, Anna Soubry, has been forced to explain herself after appearing to agree with comments about the "burden" female doctors could put on the NHS.
Tory MP Anne McIntosh said training female doctors who would go on to have children and work part-time would put a tremendous burden on the health service.
Soubry appeared to accept her point about the unintended consequences of the number of women who are training to be doctors. But she was later forced to clarify her comments, saying that she fully supports female GPs and her comments were not intended to be derogatory.
During a Westminster Hall debate, McIntosh said: "It's a controversial thing to say, but perhaps I as a woman can say this – 70% of medical students currently are women and they are very well educated and very well qualified.
"When they go into practice, and then in the normal course of events will marry and have children, they often want to go part-time, and it is obviously a tremendous burden training what effectively might be two GPs working part-time where they are ladies. And I think that is something that is going to put a huge burden on the health service."
Soubry replied: "Could I just say very quickly that you make a very important point when you talk about, rightly, the good number of women who are training to be doctors but the unintended consequences."
She later issued a statement saying: "I fully support women GPs. My comments were not intended to be derogatory and I was responding to a point made by another MP during the debate.
"As the head of the Royal College of General Practitioners also recently pointed out, some female GPs work part-time due to families. The solution is that we need to increase the number of GPs and we are doing that. This government supports good working practices such as flexible working, job sharing and part-time working, which help retain female doctors." " |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Hmmmm . . . let me see . . . if a man says it, he's an ignorant dinosaur, living in the 12th century. If a woman says it, she should be ashamed but let's blame the paper for what printing what she said.
Or maybe we should try to understand what she meant - maybe she was simply airing an inconvenient truth that the NHS is better served by male doctors than female ones. Perhaps she meant because female doctors take more time off because of their kids, or because they are less flexible, or do less overtime, or bring their relationship problems to work more than men do, are actually more likely to make medical mistakes, or who-knows-what . . .
I'm not a minister, and therefore don't have access to the information. You probably don't either.
Stop carping and get back to those dishes "
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"I didn't call anyone a dinosaur and actually am criticising these women."
I was criticising you or anyone else in particular - I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa, and that yelling "we're all equal" from the rooftops doesn't actually make us all equal. I will never make an olympic sprinter even though I've as much right as anyone to try to become one. Same with doctoring - for whatever reason, maybe the simple fact is that women doctors are less efficient tools than male doctors.
No offence intended to you or to anyone. |
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"i like being able to see a female doctor sometimes but i think if they are going to keep getting pregnant and taking time off because of their kids then they shouldnt become doctors.
"
How can they possibly know when they opt for medicine as a career that they are going to be taking a lot of time off due to children that aren't even conceived yet?
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"I didn't call anyone a dinosaur and actually am criticising these women.
I was criticising you or anyone else in particular - I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa, and that yelling "we're all equal" from the rooftops doesn't actually make us all equal. I will never make an olympic sprinter even though I've as much right as anyone to try to become one. Same with doctoring - for whatever reason, maybe the simple fact is that women doctors are less efficient tools than male doctors.
No offence intended to you or to anyone."
Sorry - completely and utterly disagree. What evidence do you have that men make better doctors? Absolute nonsense. In fact, if we decided to go back and stop women becoming doctors (and so wipe out nearly 100 years of female struggle and emancipation) then what would we do for doctors as 70% of trainees are FEMALE! |
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By *igSuki81Man
over a year ago
Retirement Village |
"Took this from the start of an article in the Daily Wail.....
Sorry you lost me the moment you mentioned the source of your story. What utter idiots work at that stale rag passing itself as a "NEWS"paper
Women have proven time and time again that they are just as capable as men in the world of work and if anything they have shown themselves to be better than their male counterparts at times.
I thought the NHS and many other public and private sector employers allowed flexible working so whats the point of the article
I read the Mail along with a lot of other papers - it does not mean that I agree with what is written."
No reading the Mail & agreeing with them are 2 totally different things & I'm not saying you do
It is however nice to see someone with a similar approach to newspapers as mine, read all of them, see what they have to say and then make your own opinion based in getting the whole picture and not just a one sided view |
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"Took this from the start of an article in the Daily Wail.....
Sorry you lost me the moment you mentioned the source of your story. What utter idiots work at that stale rag passing itself as a "NEWS"paper
Women have proven time and time again that they are just as capable as men in the world of work and if anything they have shown themselves to be better than their male counterparts at times.
I thought the NHS and many other public and private sector employers allowed flexible working so whats the point of the article
I read the Mail along with a lot of other papers - it does not mean that I agree with what is written.
No reading the Mail & agreeing with them are 2 totally different things & I'm not saying you do
It is however nice to see someone with a similar approach to newspapers as mine, read all of them, see what they have to say and then make your own opinion based in getting the whole picture and not just a one sided view "
I like reading the Telegraph and Independent too. I try to read them all but don't always have the time. |
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By *igSuki81Man
over a year ago
Retirement Village |
"i like being able to see a female doctor sometimes but i think if they are going to keep getting pregnant and taking time off because of their kids then they shouldnt become doctors.
How can they possibly know when they opt for medicine as a career that they are going to be taking a lot of time off due to children that aren't even conceived yet?
"
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"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,"
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all. |
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I mean, saying women shouldn't be doctors because they might go on maternity leave...
You may as well apply that to every job everywhere. So no jobs for women then?
Such nonsense. If women need maternity leave you develop the system to accommodate that. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all."
I dont think that men make better doctors, but men are more likely to have their mind on the job and be more dedicated. |
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all.
I dont think that men make better doctors, but men are more likely to have their mind on the job and be more dedicated."
That's just an opinion. There is no evidence to prove such a thing. I know a number of doctors, male and female, and I assure you they are equally able to keep their mind on the job. |
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"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all.
I dont think that men make better doctors, but men are more likely to have their mind on the job and be more dedicated."
Why?
Having kids does not mean you're not dedicated to your job. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"i like being able to see a female doctor sometimes but i think if they are going to keep getting pregnant and taking time off because of their kids then they shouldnt become doctors.
How can they possibly know when they opt for medicine as a career that they are going to be taking a lot of time off due to children that aren't even conceived yet?
"
Thats what they all do though, so they shouldnt become doctors. |
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It isn't a question of whether men make better doctors than women, the argument is about if women doctors are a drain on the NHS due to the fact that they often have to take time off to have children.
It is possible that they are but why pick on women as a group, what about the very high rate of alcoholism among GPs, the high rate of depression? There are many drains on the NHS not just women with children. |
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"i like being able to see a female doctor sometimes but i think if they are going to keep getting pregnant and taking time off because of their kids then they shouldnt become doctors.
How can they possibly know when they opt for medicine as a career that they are going to be taking a lot of time off due to children that aren't even conceived yet?
Thats what they all do though, so they shouldnt become doctors."
 now I know you're not being serious. |
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By *igSuki81Man
over a year ago
Retirement Village |
"Took this from the start of an article in the Daily Wail.....
Sorry you lost me the moment you mentioned the source of your story. What utter idiots work at that stale rag passing itself as a "NEWS"paper
Women have proven time and time again that they are just as capable as men in the world of work and if anything they have shown themselves to be better than their male counterparts at times.
I thought the NHS and many other public and private sector employers allowed flexible working so whats the point of the article
I read the Mail along with a lot of other papers - it does not mean that I agree with what is written.
No reading the Mail & agreeing with them are 2 totally different things & I'm not saying you do
It is however nice to see someone with a similar approach to newspapers as mine, read all of them, see what they have to say and then make your own opinion based in getting the whole picture and not just a one sided view
I like reading the Telegraph and Independent too. I try to read them all but don't always have the time."
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"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all.
I dont think that men make better doctors, but men are more likely to have their mind on the job and be more dedicated."
It's true women are always thinking about what to make their husbands for tea, whether or not they can afford a new hat its a miracle they can even make it to the surgery some mornings for worrying about what colour nail varnish to wear. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all.
I dont think that men make better doctors, but men are more likely to have their mind on the job and be more dedicated.
Why?
Having kids does not mean you're not dedicated to your job."
you cant be that dedicated not to be taking time off work all the time. |
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all.
I dont think that men make better doctors, but men are more likely to have their mind on the job and be more dedicated.
Why?
Having kids does not mean you're not dedicated to your job.
you cant be that dedicated not to be taking time off work all the time."
Who says they are taking time off all the time?????? |
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By *igSuki81Man
over a year ago
Retirement Village |
"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all.
I dont think that men make better doctors, but men are more likely to have their mind on the job and be more dedicated."
As a man, whos worked in various professions i can assure you we don't always have our mind on the job & we aren't anymore dedicated than women.
In my current job my biggest "competition" the one person who can keep up with my work pace & productivity, who's just as calm & quick to resolve problems under pressure is a female & not a male & she is quite possibly the best person i've ever worked with |
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"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all.
I dont think that men make better doctors, but men are more likely to have their mind on the job and be more dedicated.
Why?
Having kids does not mean you're not dedicated to your job.
you cant be that dedicated not to be taking time off work all the time."
No one says that they take time off all the time, all that has been said is that they want to work part time. There is a huge difference between being absent during contracted hours and working part time. |
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By *igSuki81Man
over a year ago
Retirement Village |
"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all.
I dont think that men make better doctors, but men are more likely to have their mind on the job and be more dedicated.
It's true women are always thinking about what to make their husbands for tea, whether or not they can afford a new hat its a miracle they can even make it to the surgery some mornings for worrying about what colour nail varnish to wear."
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"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all.
I dont think that men make better doctors, but men are more likely to have their mind on the job and be more dedicated.
Why?
Having kids does not mean you're not dedicated to your job.
you cant be that dedicated not to be taking time off work all the time."
Oh dear. So any woman who has a child is not dedicated to her job?
That's quite insulting to a huge number of women.
And what about men who have children?
They don't care about their kids?
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By *B9 Queen OP Woman
over a year ago
Over the rainbow, under the bridge |
"I just happen to think that it is perfectly reasonable for men to be better than women at some things, & vice versa,
Why is it perfectly reasonable? Men and women are actually very similar. There's no reason to believe men make better doctors at all.
I dont think that men make better doctors, but men are more likely to have their mind on the job and be more dedicated.
Why?
Having kids does not mean you're not dedicated to your job.
you cant be that dedicated not to be taking time off work all the time.
Oh dear. So any woman who has a child is not dedicated to her job?
That's quite insulting to a huge number of women.
And what about men who have children?
They don't care about their kids?
"
Nice! |
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Are you lot crazy ? It's not about whether women make better doctors or worse doctors than men - it's about their relative contribution to the NHS.
Incidentally, to all those that say women are just as good at doctoring as men and call for evidence to the contrary, why don't you provide evidence to support your assumptions? I'm guessing the Minister's probably quite well informed and didn't just decide that (it being wednesday) she'd have a go at women doctors. Your turn now.
As for it being insulting to women - tough doo-doo . . . I'm no good at choosing wallpaper or cooking but I'm pretty cool with a chainsaw and don't mind walking the dog at night - oddly, quite the reverse to most women that I've met . . . and you say we're all equal - absolute bull**** - we're all equally important but certainly not all equal - men might make better doctors, full stop, or they might make better doctors for the NHS, or they might be worse - or they might be equally good as women - but we are not all equal. |
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can anyone quantify how valuable it is to have people within one of the caring professions who are aware of the difficulties involved with working while raising a family? How valuable it is to have people who after they have raised their children can return to full time working with all that experience under their belt? People who know the anxiety that a parent feels when one of their children is ill?
How about the GPs who train at the expense of the NHS then move into private medecine, emigrate or leave the profession? These points apply to men and women.
The NHS doesn't pay for them to go through medical school does it anyway? |
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"The NHS doesn't pay for them to go through medical school does it anyway? "
I think you'll find that (despite student fees) the government contributes a considerable sum to every degree course, and (presumably) more to a medical degree than to most other courses given its duration. We fund the Government, we fund the NHS - is there a difference.
As for attributing a value to experience, that cuts all ways - men with kids, women with kids, those without kids, and so forth. Does lack of life experiences make a new doctor a bad doctor ? I don't think so.
To be honest, I imagine that the full repertoire of quantifiable & unquantifiable factors would be considered when considering the relative merits of men/women/dogs/horses within the NHS. |
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"The NHS doesn't pay for them to go through medical school does it anyway?
I think you'll find that (despite student fees) the government contributes a considerable sum to every degree course, and (presumably) more to a medical degree than to most other courses given its duration. We fund the Government, we fund the NHS - is there a difference.
As for attributing a value to experience, that cuts all ways - men with kids, women with kids, those without kids, and so forth. Does lack of life experiences make a new doctor a bad doctor ? I don't think so.
To be honest, I imagine that the full repertoire of quantifiable & unquantifiable factors would be considered when considering the relative merits of men/women/dogs/horses within the NHS."
The government does contribute significantly to education and we do fund the government, there is a diffeence because it is specifically the NHS and its funding we are discussing in relation to female doctors. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Are you lot crazy ? It's not about whether women make better doctors or worse doctors than men - it's about their relative contribution to the NHS.
Incidentally, to all those that say women are just as good at doctoring as men and call for evidence to the contrary, why don't you provide evidence to support your assumptions? I'm guessing the Minister's probably quite well informed and didn't just decide that (it being wednesday) she'd have a go at women doctors. Your turn now.
As for it being insulting to women - tough doo-doo . . . I'm no good at choosing wallpaper or cooking but I'm pretty cool with a chainsaw and don't mind walking the dog at night - oddly, quite the reverse to most women that I've met . . . and you say we're all equal - absolute bull**** - we're all equally important but certainly not all equal - men might make better doctors, full stop, or they might make better doctors for the NHS, or they might be worse - or they might be equally good as women - but we are not all equal. "
say it like it is. |
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"there is a diffeence because it is specifically the NHS and its funding we are discussing in relation to female doctors."
Fair point but how about the training that is provided by the NHS ? In reality, it isn't free even though it probably isn't billed. As I understand it, if two doctors each work half-days, that's the equivalent to one doctor working a full day. If you have two doctors working half days, they both needed to be taught & trained, at considerable expense, partly to the NHS. |
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"there is a diffeence because it is specifically the NHS and its funding we are discussing in relation to female doctors.
Fair point but how about the training that is provided by the NHS ? In reality, it isn't free even though it probably isn't billed. As I understand it, if two doctors each work half-days, that's the equivalent to one doctor working a full day. If you have two doctors working half days, they both needed to be taught & trained, at considerable expense, partly to the NHS."
Yes and I think this is what the minister was getting at. However women doctors who only work part time are not the only drain on the NHS and for a minister to make this statement in isolation was bound to cause argument which nicely deflects from thh real problem, the NHS is in trouble and the powers that be don't know how to fix it. |
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"However women doctors who only work part time are not the only drain on the NHS and for a minister to make this statement in isolation was bound to cause argument which nicely deflects from thh real problem, the NHS is in trouble and the powers that be don't know how to fix it."
Agreed again, but maybe the whole "the NHS is in trouble" thing stems from permitting women to become doctors ?
OK, I'm only playing Devil's advocate there |
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"However women doctors who only work part time are not the only drain on the NHS and for a minister to make this statement in isolation was bound to cause argument which nicely deflects from thh real problem, the NHS is in trouble and the powers that be don't know how to fix it.
Agreed again, but maybe the whole "the NHS is in trouble" thing stems from permitting women to become doctors ?
OK, I'm only playing Devil's advocate there "
I know that you can't believe that just one factor is responsible for what ails the National Health. Taken to it's furthest extreme we could say that patients are a massive drain on the NHS...... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"there is a diffeence because it is specifically the NHS and its funding we are discussing in relation to female doctors.
Fair point but how about the training that is provided by the NHS ? In reality, it isn't free even though it probably isn't billed. As I understand it, if two doctors each work half-days, that's the equivalent to one doctor working a full day. If you have two doctors working half days, they both needed to be taught & trained, at considerable expense, partly to the NHS."
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