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"35% per cent rise in state pension. Yet over 80% if laps also have a private pension. Plus free bus pass and cold weather payments and free tv license. Most own homes which have risen in value 18 fold since bought. So with everyone else bring penalized and austerity cuts is it time to means test oaps? After all the welfare state is intended to help the needy. Too many think its a loyalty scheme. Discuss." Curious as to where you get your stats re home ownership? 'Most' is a dangerous word to use without evidence to back it up! | |||
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"But surely withholding universal benefit from anyone who fail means testing can result in penalising thrifty people who’ve planned for their future having also spent a lifetime contributed into the system. "*Contributing* | |||
"But surely withholding universal benefit from anyone who fail means testing can result in penalising thrifty people who’ve planned for their future having also spent a lifetime contributed into the system "TRUE but the system isn't like insurance where you pay now and reap benefit later. Its in place to help those who need it now. The system has already helped them through their lives. now iys strained and money needs be recouped. Many younger generation have no chance of obtaining the luxeries previous generations took for granted such as a free education cheap housing jobs et all | |||
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"Just using figures being discussed on the wright stuff channel 5 now " Ok - just done a quick search and you're right - current stats say 71% of over 65's live in owner occupied property. So those that have worked all their lives (else how did they pay the mortgage to buy their property) including paying tax and NI contributions should be penalised because they've chosen to use their earnings to buy property? Why should someone who has paid their dues to the same extent as the next man/woman receive less of a state pension? This is the one 'benefit' that should never be means tested as the requirements to receive it are the same for all. And it's widely recognised that living on just the state pension has always been hard - hence the increases. Those that have bought property or paid into private pensions during their working lives have been sensible with their planning and this should not impact their entitlement to the same state pension as someone who chose to make no plans for retirement and care in old age. | |||
"Just using figures being discussed on the wright stuff channel 5 now Ok - just done a quick search and you're right - current stats say 71% of over 65's live in owner occupied property. So those that have worked all their lives (else how did they pay the mortgage to buy their property) including paying tax and NI contributions should be penalised because they've chosen to use their earnings to buy property? Why should someone who has paid their dues to the same extent as the next man/woman receive less of a state pension? This is the one 'benefit' that should never be means tested as the requirements to receive it are the same for all. And it's widely recognised that living on just the state pension has always been hard - hence the increases. Those that have bought property or paid into private pensions during their working lives have been sensible with their planning and this should not impact their entitlement to the same state pension as someone who chose to make no plans for retirement and care in old age."  | |||
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"But surely withholding universal benefit from anyone who fail means testing can result in penalising thrifty people who’ve planned for their future having also spent a lifetime contributed into the system
TRUE but the system isn't like insurance where you pay now and reap benefit later. Its in place to help those who need it now. The system has already helped them through their lives. now iys strained and money needs be recouped. Many younger generation have no chance of obtaining the luxeries previous generations took for granted such as a free education cheap housing jobs et all
"Have to disagree that "the system" has helped people already - my parents never had a penny off the state (other than child allowance) until they drew their pensions which they'd already contributed to for 40+ years and as for the luxuries you mentioned - they were worked and paid for | |||
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"I have read many oap's say they don't need the money but will claim as they are 'entitled'. it's this sense of entitlement that's wrong just coz your old! What about the youths entitlement to education a career jobs getting on property ladder? All things the baby boom generation took fir granted. Its their mishandling of economy and infrastructure that's caused todays problems. We are all getting older all living longer. Something has to give. Why should a 70 year old with two homes two cars shares. Etc not forfeit a bus pass etc? " I'm pretty sure any 70 yr old with 2 cars won't ever get on a bus!!! 
Not sure what you mean by 'sense of entitlement'? If you've paid your dues during life of course you're entitled to claim what's rightfully yours !!
As for education? It's there now - but many cant be arsed to utilise it and make the most of their opportunities. Employment? Again - there are jobs out there - but many are unwilling to accept employment they deem 'beneath them'. The property ladder? There's never been a guarantee of getting on this - it goes hand in hand with hard work, planning and good money management.
Something has to give? Why not leave those in retirement be - and focus on those that there's a chance to help get off the welfare state and back into employment/training/education? If people planned better to look after themselves during their younger days then they'd enjoy a much happier and probably longer retirement! | |||
"Also every other benefit such as job seekers housing working tax credit is means tested. Its fair. " The state pension is not the same as these benefits. It's paid for during your working life. The others aren't. There's no comparison!!  | |||
"I have read many oap's say they don't need the money but will claim as they are 'entitled'. it's this sense of entitlement that's wrong just coz your old! What about the youths entitlement to education a career jobs getting on property ladder? All things the baby boom generation took fir granted. Its their mishandling of economy and infrastructure that's caused todays problems. We are all getting older all living longer. Something has to give. Why should a 70 year old with two homes two cars shares. Etc not forfeit a bus pass etc? I'm pretty sure any 70 yr old with 2 cars won't ever get on a bus!!!
Not sure what you mean by 'sense of entitlement'? If you've paid your dues during life of course you're entitled to claim what's rightfully yours !!
As for education? It's there now - but many cant be arsed to utilise it and make the most of their opportunities. Employment? Again - there are jobs out there - but many are unwilling to accept employment they deem 'beneath them'. The property ladder? There's never been a guarantee of getting on this - it goes hand in hand with hard work, planning and good money management.
Something has to give? Why not leave those in retirement be - and focus on those that there's a chance to help get off the welfare state and back into employment/training/education? If people planned better to look after themselves during their younger days then they'd enjoy a much happier and probably longer retirement! " | |||
"Also every other benefit such as job seekers housing working tax credit is means tested. Its fair. " The allowances for pensioners are not benefits to my mind, they were bought in to make up for under inflation increases to the pension and in many cases have been paid for over a 40 year + career, as to your assertion regarding the sense of entitlement coz someone's old - that's bollocks and certainly not just pensioners, there seems far too many expecting the state to support them after contributing somewhere between very little and fuck all - note: I am not against a welfare state helping the needy thru hard tmes, only those that expect to live forever on benefits | |||
"Family allowance isn't means tested If people have worked hard to own their own home, contributed to private pensions etc then good on em for forward thinking. They should not be penalised by those that haven't " Yes but the flip side of that is its now Impossible to own your home get educated or plan for the future in the way they did as they have obliterated all the infrastuctire in place which made that possible. And its foolish to think these hard working oaps never had their hand out when it came to collecting benefits before they aged. Sure they still had free school dinners child benefits jobseekers etc then! Don't get me wrong I have no problem with someone claiming money they are entitled to if the need it. But the figures show a vast majority do not need it at all and are adequately catered for. If bout was on other foot would be labelled fraudulent scroungers | |||
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"But surely withholding universal benefit from anyone who fail means testing can result in penalising thrifty people who’ve planned for their future having also spent a lifetime contributed into the system. " | |||
"Family allowance isn't means tested If people have worked hard to own their own home, contributed to private pensions etc then good on em for forward thinking. They should not be penalised by those that haven't Yes but the flip side of that is its now Impossible to own your home get educated or plan for the future in the way they did as they have obliterated all the infrastuctire in place which made that possible. And its foolish to think these hard working oaps never had their hand out when it came to collecting benefits before they aged. Sure they still had free school dinners child benefits jobseekers etc then! Don't get me wrong I have no problem with someone claiming money they are entitled to if the need it. But the figures show a vast majority do not need it at all and are adequately catered for. If bout was on other foot would be labelled fraudulent scroungers" Not really. I'm in education. It's funded. My fees are paid. Granted ill have to pay it back but hopefully I should also get a job that allows me to do so! Im using the Resources available to me to better my life. Up to this point I've worked hard and the bank and I are sharing my home but I will not rest on my laurels like some and think I should be taken care of in my old age regardless. I do however feel I am contributing to this society and no matter how well I plan and save for a dependable and comfortable retirement.. Nothing is in stone | |||
"the state pension is a contract betwwen the state and the individual it is a right somewhere in your equation you have forgotten all those who paid into the system during their working lives and then died before they reached pensionable age" An oap with a home in London and a home in Spain stating its their right. My point so eloquently demonstrated there | |||
"Family allowance isn't means tested If people have worked hard to own their own home, contributed to private pensions etc then good on em for forward thinking. They should not be penalised by those that haven't Yes but the flip side of that is its now Impossible to own your home get educated or plan for the future in the way they did as they have obliterated all the infrastuctire in place which made that possible. And its foolish to think these hard working oaps never had their hand out when it came to collecting benefits before they aged. Sure they still had free school dinners child benefits jobseekers etc then! Don't get me wrong I have no problem with someone claiming money they are entitled to if the need it. But the figures show a vast majority do not need it at all and are adequately catered for. If bout was on other foot would be labelled fraudulent scroungers" You're 38. A year older than me. I've owned my own home, been to uni, have a good job - and have never claimed a single penny in benefits - ever. I pay into a pension, no longer own a home due to divorce - and when I hit retirement will be mighty pissed off if my 40+ yrs contributions aren't recognised by a full state pension. I know many people in their twenties who have been in state education, work hard, bought homes via saving, shared ownership schemes and again - have never claimed a cent (with the exception of child benefit) from the state. I'm curious as to why you assume all these pensioners have been getting hand outs their whole lives? And as for your claim that's its impossible for anyone to achieve anything these days - I'm with Muhammed Ali on this! "Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live the world they've been given than to explore the power they have." | |||
"the state pension is a contract betwwen the state and the individual it is a right somewhere in your equation you have forgotten all those who paid into the system during their working lives and then died before they reached pensionable age An oap with a home in London and a home in Spain stating its their right. My point so eloquently demonstrated there" It is his right.. He has obviously earned enough to afford these things and with higher earnings come higher tax bands and a greater contribution and yet those 45 years of high tax isn't given back to him in the same percentage he gave it.. He gets what we all get | |||
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"I have read many oap's say they don't need the money but will claim as they are 'entitled'. it's this sense of entitlement that's wrong just coz your old! What about the youths entitlement to education a career jobs getting on property ladder? All things the baby boom generation took fir granted. Its their mishandling of economy and infrastructure that's caused todays problems. We are all getting older all living longer. Something has to give. Why should a 70 year old with two homes two cars shares. Etc not forfeit a bus pass etc? I'm pretty sure any 70 yr old with 2 cars won't ever get on a bus!!!
Not sure what you mean by 'sense of entitlement'? If you've paid your dues during life of course you're entitled to claim what's rightfully yours !!
As for education? It's there now - but many cant be arsed to utilise it and make the most of their opportunities. Employment? Again - there are jobs out there - but many are unwilling to accept employment they deem 'beneath them'. The property ladder? There's never been a guarantee of getting on this - it goes hand in hand with hard work, planning and good money management.
Something has to give? Why not leave those in retirement be - and focus on those that there's a chance to help get off the welfare state and back into employment/training/education? If people planned better to look after themselves during their younger days then they'd enjoy a much happier and probably longer retirement! "Yes a good idea concentrate on getting youth into work. Only one problem there. The oaps won't give up the jobs leaving none available. Yet still claim free tv license. Its hypocrisy and sucks. Anyone who can afford to be self sufficent should be and leave benefits to the needy | |||
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"How on earth can you blame pensioners for obliterating an infrastructure that means young people can't get on property ladder or jobs??? I've been a home owner since I was 18, I wouldn't like to be starting out now I will admit but I'm buggered if I'll blame my hardworking parents...as to vast majority being able to do without, can you back that statement up? Just done a quick check n read of some politico reckoning 9m don't need winter fuel allowance which would save £2.7bn (if I've counted the 0s properly!) not a huge chunk out of the £700bn total government spend " 80% have a second private pension 80% own there home and have seen the value increase 18x meaning they are very well off. In my calculations that leaves 20% actually needy | |||
"I have read many oap's say they don't need the money but will claim as they are 'entitled'. it's this sense of entitlement that's wrong just coz your old! What about the youths entitlement to education a career jobs getting on property ladder? All things the baby boom generation took fir granted. Its their mishandling of economy and infrastructure that's caused todays problems. We are all getting older all living longer. Something has to give. Why should a 70 year old with two homes two cars shares. Etc not forfeit a bus pass etc? I'm pretty sure any 70 yr old with 2 cars won't ever get on a bus!!!
Not sure what you mean by 'sense of entitlement'? If you've paid your dues during life of course you're entitled to claim what's rightfully yours !!
As for education? It's there now - but many cant be arsed to utilise it and make the most of their opportunities. Employment? Again - there are jobs out there - but many are unwilling to accept employment they deem 'beneath them'. The property ladder? There's never been a guarantee of getting on this - it goes hand in hand with hard work, planning and good money management.
Something has to give? Why not leave those in retirement be - and focus on those that there's a chance to help get off the welfare state and back into employment/training/education? If people planned better to look after themselves during their younger days then they'd enjoy a much happier and probably longer retirement!
Yes a good idea concentrate on getting youth into work. Only one problem there. The oaps won't give up the jobs leaving none available. Yet still claim free tv license. Its hypocrisy and sucks. Anyone who can afford to be self sufficent should be and leave benefits to the needy "
So now you're criticising those who continue to work beyond what was traditional retirement age as this doesn't let a youngster get into employment?
WTF???? People continue working in old age because they often have to!! And last time I checked - there were thousands of jobs being advertised online and at the job centre.
I'm surprised you're not suggesting compulsory euthanasia at 65 - would cut the pension bill and free up loads of jobs at the same time by your calculations!!! | |||
"I have read many oap's say they don't need the money but will claim as they are 'entitled'. it's this sense of entitlement that's wrong just coz your old! What about the youths entitlement to education a career jobs getting on property ladder? All things the baby boom generation took fir granted. Its their mishandling of economy and infrastructure that's caused todays problems. We are all getting older all living longer. Something has to give. Why should a 70 year old with two homes two cars shares. Etc not forfeit a bus pass etc? I'm pretty sure any 70 yr old with 2 cars won't ever get on a bus!!!
Not sure what you mean by 'sense of entitlement'? If you've paid your dues during life of course you're entitled to claim what's rightfully yours !!
As for education? It's there now - but many cant be arsed to utilise it and make the most of their opportunities. Employment? Again - there are jobs out there - but many are unwilling to accept employment they deem 'beneath them'. The property ladder? There's never been a guarantee of getting on this - it goes hand in hand with hard work, planning and good money management.
Something has to give? Why not leave those in retirement be - and focus on those that there's a chance to help get off the welfare state and back into employment/training/education? If people planned better to look after themselves during their younger days then they'd enjoy a much happier and probably longer retirement!
Yes a good idea concentrate on getting youth into work. Only one problem there. The oaps won't give up the jobs leaving none available. Yet still claim free tv license. Its hypocrisy and sucks. Anyone who can afford to be self sufficent should be and leave benefits to the needy
So now you're criticising those who continue to work beyond what was traditional retirement age as this doesn't let a youngster get into employment?
WTF???? People continue working in old age because they often have to!! And last time I checked - there were thousands of jobs being advertised online and at the job centre.
I'm surprised you're not suggesting compulsory euthanasia at 65 - would cut the pension bill and free up loads of jobs at the same time by your calculations!!! "Not just pension bill and jobs but also homes and hospital beds. Finally someone talking sense! | |||
"35% per cent rise in state pension. Yet over 80% if laps also have a private pension. Plus free bus pass and cold weather payments and free tv license. Most own homes which have risen in value 18 fold since bought. So with everyone else bring penalized and austerity cuts is it time to means test oaps? After all the welfare state is intended to help the needy. Too many think its a loyalty scheme. Discuss." Let's stop them from using the NHS too. They don't need it they can afford to go private ! Make them all use private dentists. Sell their cars if they have a bus pass and put the money in the welfare state. Sell their 2+ bedroom houses if they only need one bedroom, and let first time buyers have them at a knock down rate. Stop them from working past 65 becuase they are old and useless and a drain on the state and of no value, plus they stop the school leavers getting a job. In fact why not have state sponsored euthanasia at say 65 years old. After all what can pensioners offer us now ?! Don't blame pensioners for the state of the country. Blame the governmnet, bankers, tax dodgers (the national debt could almost be paid off with what they avoid paying),and those who refuse to work ! | |||
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"How on earth can you blame pensioners for obliterating an infrastructure that means young people can't get on property ladder or jobs??? I've been a home owner since I was 18, I wouldn't like to be starting out now I will admit but I'm buggered if I'll blame my hardworking parents...as to vast majority being able to do without, can you back that statement up? Just done a quick check n read of some politico reckoning 9m don't need winter fuel allowance which would save £2.7bn (if I've counted the 0s properly!) not a huge chunk out of the £700bn total government spend 80% have a second private pension 80% own there home and have seen the value increase 18x meaning they are very well off. In my calculations that leaves 20% actually needy " I'm not sure how someone owning their own home that may now be worth 18x what they paid for it means they are well off - maybe if they sold it they would be money rich for a while until the funds ran out and then guess what - they'd need state funding to live...also home owners are required to sell their homes to fund care if needed. As for your earlier assertion regarding no jobs cos these wicked pensioners are keeping them 'til they're 103, I've just checked out our external vacancy notices and seen that craft jobs are available at £27k upwards, graduate scheme is recruiting at £28k starting salary, business n admin apprentice scheme is running as well as lots of engineering n maintainance opportunities up to £55k...hope no pesky pensioners try to steal them to fund their extravagent lifestyles! | |||
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We'll all reap the "benefit" soon when it collapses. It's unsustainable like all Ponzi schemes. | |||
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"The National insurance scheme is basically a dirty great Ponzi scheme anyway
We'll all reap the "benefit" soon when it collapses. It's unsustainable like all Ponzi schemes."
Really ? And you have evidence of this from.............? | |||
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"I say this on the basis that the national insurance system is totally dependant on taxpayers shovelling money in at ever increasing rates. There is enough money in the kitty to pay perhaps the next 2 or 3 months ahead. If interest rates rise the taxpayers ability to shovel money in will disappear overnight and the system will go bankrupt. There is no national insurance policy. It's just a dirty great Ponzi scheme like I said invented in 1903 to provide pensions for those over 70 when the average life expectancy was 48. Pragmatism means we will have to expect much less when we retire or save much harder ourselves. Enjoy life now while you are fit enough." Actually it was introduced in the National Insurance Act 1911. Regarding the amounts people pay in - see below. 1978 - 1979 the contribution was at 6.50% up to the upper limit. 1982 - 1989 the contribution was at 9.00% up to the upper limit. 1989 - 1994 the contribution was at 2.00% on the lower band of earnings and then at 9.00% up to the upper limit. 1995 - 1999 the contribution was at 2.00% on the lower band of earnings and then at 10.00% up to the upper limit. 1999 - 2003 the contribution was at 0.00% on the lower band of earnings and then at 10.00% up to the upper limit. 2003 - 2011 the contribution was at 0.00% on the lower band of earnings and then at 11.00% up to the upper limit and 1% on earnings over the upper limit. 2011 - 2014 the contribution was at 0.00% on the lower band of earnings and then at 12.00% up to the upper limit and 2% on earnings over the upper limit. The lower limit was set at a similar level to the personal allowance for Income Tax; the two were aligned in the period from 2000 to 2008-9 but then were allowed to move apart. The upper limit is set at the same figure at which the higher rate of Income Tax becomes chargeable. For 2012-13 the point at which Employees start to pay National Insurance is about £7,600 per year, the start point for Income Tax being £8,105. For 2013-14 the start points have just been announced as £ 7,755 and £9,440 respectively. Hardly what you'd call a massive increase over time or being dependant on taxpayers 'shovelling increasing monies in'. And regarding the amount of money in the kitty - found some statistics you may want to review! "Each year there is a surplus of the order of £2 billion. The Great Britain NIF had a surplus of over £34 billion as at 2005/06, £38 billion in 2006/7 and the Government Actuary's Department forecasts that this surplus will grow to over £114.7 billion by 2012." Two to three months?  | |||
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"This is why I want you in my pub quiz team, Obi..... "Nah - they ban the use of phones!
But doesn't usually take too long to find relevant stats! | |||
OP, I hope that as you grow older and reach retirement age when those benefits will be bestowed upon you, you have the good sense and decency to say No Thank you! | |||
"This is why I want you in my pub quiz team, Obi.....
Nah - they ban the use of phones!
But doesn't usually take too long to find relevant stats! "I like Frenchbambi's stats
You googled it? I thought they were facts you just happened to know!
Can I ring you if I get a national insurance percentage of GDP question tomorrow night? | |||
"This is why I want you in my pub quiz team, Obi.....
Nah - they ban the use of phones!
But doesn't usually take too long to find relevant stats!
I like Frenchbambi's stats
You googled it? I thought they were facts you just happened to know!
Can I ring you if I get a national insurance percentage of GDP question tomorrow night? "No. I'll be busy getting Jiggy in Manchester! | |||
"This is why I want you in my pub quiz team, Obi.....
Nah - they ban the use of phones!
But doesn't usually take too long to find relevant stats!
I like Frenchbambi's stats
You googled it? I thought they were facts you just happened to know!
Can I ring you if I get a national insurance percentage of GDP question tomorrow night? "Ah thanks!! Liking your stats too Mr Steve | |||
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"i know a man who is now 68, he never paid into NI or paid tax all his working life! Gets to 67 and applies for a pension! yes he got it and back dated to his 65th and gets pension credits!!!! he also now has a council bungalow with housing ben paid and council tax makes me wonder whats going on "Makes me wonder if you know him so well and are that worried, why you havent reported him for tax evasion? | |||
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"I Oh well I see, You obviously think it's all under control and Hunky Dory which is your right. I think otherwise which is my right." Hey - if you're worried about the balance in the kitty - the UK Debt Management Office publishes the current balance of the National Insurance Fund Investment account monthly. Been rising each month for quite a while! | |||
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"It's a no brainer.... Many of these 'pensioners' will have served their country in the Second World War, and other conflicts since. Just about all of them will have lived through the very hard post war years of 1945-1954 where food rationing still took place. To suggest that we penalise pensioners for living a thrifty lifestyle and saving hard for their retirement years, or put much of their wages into a company pension, is a ridiculous notion. " | |||
"Just using figures being discussed on the wright stuff channel 5 now Ok - just done a quick search and you're right - current stats say 71% of over 65's live in owner occupied property. So those that have worked all their lives (else how did they pay the mortgage to buy their property) including paying tax and NI contributions should be penalised because they've chosen to use their earnings to buy property? Why should someone who has paid their dues to the same extent as the next man/woman receive less of a state pension? This is the one 'benefit' that should never be means tested as the requirements to receive it are the same for all. And it's widely recognised that living on just the state pension has always been hard - hence the increases. Those that have bought property or paid into private pensions during their working lives have been sensible with their planning and this should not impact their entitlement to the same state pension as someone who chose to make no plans for retirement and care in old age." Indeed! | |||
"It's a no brainer.... Many of these 'pensioners' will have served their country in the Second World War, and other conflicts since. Just about all of them will have lived through the very hard post war years of 1945-1954 where food rationing still took place. To suggest that we penalise pensioners for living a thrifty lifestyle and saving hard for their retirement years, or put much of their wages into a company pension, is a ridiculous notion. " | |||
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"But surely withholding universal benefit from anyone who fail means testing can result in penalising thrifty people who’ve planned for their future having also spent a lifetime contributed into the system. " | |||
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