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R.I.P. Tony Martin: a true hero!
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Tony Martin was actually diagnosed as mentally ill but people, the "mainstream" press in particular, seem to skirt over that fact. Not as exciting one understands.
We can in the UK use "reasonable" force to defend ourselves and loved ones against attack against ourselves and property. That may in certain instances require using lethal force if necessary.
What the law does not allow is any revenge or retribution. You cannot say kill or even injure a burglar for having the audacity to break in your house or try to take your property. This is mainly where people fall foul of the self-defence laws. They brag about it, especially to the police who these days carry cameras, and they self convict themselves. |
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He’s not hero on my eyes, shot and killed 16-year-old boy, somebody’s son, convicted of murder later dropped to manslaughter refused parole several times because he was considered dangerous. I’m sure he didn’t need to kill that young boy, but he chose to. |
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"He’s not hero on my eyes, shot and killed 16-year-old boy, somebody’s son, convicted of murder later dropped to manslaughter refused parole several times because he was considered dangerous. I’m sure he didn’t need to kill that young boy, but he chose to."
Good take |
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"He’s not hero on my eyes, shot and killed 16-year-old boy, somebody’s son, convicted of murder later dropped to manslaughter refused parole several times because he was considered dangerous. I’m sure he didn’t need to kill that young boy, but he chose to."
He shot scum that burgled his house , good for him . I'd do exactly the same if it was me , I'd quite happily pull the trigger with no fucks given. He won't be out burgling again that's for sure . Scum of the streets 👌 |
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"He’s not hero on my eyes, shot and killed 16-year-old boy, somebody’s son, convicted of murder later dropped to manslaughter refused parole several times because he was considered dangerous. I’m sure he didn’t need to kill that young boy, but he chose to."
This is the succinct point in this whole case. Did the two 16 year old lads do wrong? Yes, think we all agree on that.
Do 16 year olds deserve the death penalty for breaking and entering? Anybody is free to answer to that however they wish. Me? I agree with the law and say no.
- Charles |
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"He’s not hero on my eyes, shot and killed 16-year-old boy, somebody’s son, convicted of murder later dropped to manslaughter refused parole several times because he was considered dangerous. I’m sure he didn’t need to kill that young boy, but he chose to."
the father/mother should have taken their loveable son and taught him right from wrong then he would still be alive and kicking
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No one wants to see a 16 year old lad die. Fred Barras. Regardless of burglary scum.
But. If I was living in an old farm at night and I heard noises and saw there were intruders, I would pick up what I could find and make sure that I wasn't the one laying in a pool of blood at the end.
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"He’s not hero on my eyes, shot and killed 16-year-old boy, somebody’s son, convicted of murder later dropped to manslaughter refused parole several times because he was considered dangerous. I’m sure he didn’t need to kill that young boy, but he chose to.
How was Martin to know the people on his land robbing him (not the first time) were 16 year olds,
This is the succinct point in this whole case. Did the two 16 year old lads do wrong? Yes, think we all agree on that.
Do 16 year olds deserve the death penalty for breaking and entering? Anybody is free to answer to that however they wish. Me? I agree with the law and say no.
- Charles "
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"He’s not hero on my eyes, shot and killed 16-year-old boy, somebody’s son, convicted of murder later dropped to manslaughter refused parole several times because he was considered dangerous. I’m sure he didn’t need to kill that young boy, but he chose to."
And the 16 year old chose to go to that farm and take things that didn’t belong to him. If he didn’t make that choice ……… |
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Killing children doesn't make anyone a hero, in my eyes. I'm against murder, full stop, including by the state.
Using reasonable force, to defend yourself from physical attack, is safe and healthy. How some people operate in other countries, where they typically use guns more widely, isn't something I'd like anyone to emulate. It's a race to the bottom and we deserve better |
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The bit that’s missed is that his farm was being burgled repeatedly, not just once.
Imagine that was your house and it was repeatedly being burgled.
I think it’s easy to judge before you’ve lived their experience or “walked a mile in their shoes”. |
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I can't imagine living on a home that had been repeatedly broken into and the loss of a sanctuary and feeling of safety.
But saying all burglers and drugdealers should be shot dead is very much a over simplification of the issues. It's fantasy and a dangerous one.
What happened was a tragedy for everyone involved and shouldn't be treated as a heroic story |
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I care nothing for what happens to a burglar, whatever their age, they make their choices & in the kids case he came badly unstuck.
Tony Martin was a hero to millions of normal people sick of assholes stealing from others.
RIP |
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"The bit that’s missed is that his farm was being burgled repeatedly, not just once.
Imagine that was your house and it was repeatedly being burgled.
I think it’s easy to judge before you’ve lived their experience or “walked a mile in their shoes”."
Again this is where truth and story get muddied. The official police statements did state they were aware who Mr Martin was he often turned up at the local police station and liked to hang around. But he had not reported any of the alleged "10 incidents" before, only using that later as part of his defence in court. The incident with the two lads is the only time the police - officially - were aware of the farm being burgled.
We have to remember these were the actions of a man officially diagnosed with a paranoid personality disorder. |
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"The bit that’s missed is that his farm was being burgled repeatedly, not just once.
Imagine that was your house and it was repeatedly being burgled.
I think it’s easy to judge before you’ve lived their experience or “walked a mile in their shoes”.
Again this is where truth and story get muddied. The official police statements did state they were aware who Mr Martin was he often turned up at the local police station and liked to hang around. But he had not reported any of the alleged "10 incidents" before, only using that later as part of his defence in court. The incident with the two lads is the only time the police - officially - were aware of the farm being burgled.
We have to remember these were the actions of a man officially diagnosed with a paranoid personality disorder. "
also have to remember if the burglars had been choir boys, both would still be singing in church on Sunday mornings |
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By *oxy-RedWoman 6 days ago
pink panther territory |
I agree that to find an intruder in your home must be horrific and of course you would want to protect yourself/other and your property
But to kill? No I don't agree at all with that ,and if you have a gun in your hand then you obviously mean to kill or seriously hurt them |
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R.I.P Tony, I always thought it a travesty that he was locked away. I have some of these types living about half a mile from me the children are probably about that age now but they are built like brick shite houses about 6ft 6inches tall and nearly the same across, the father is a cage boxer, they sure as hell have no respect for people or property and scare the local folks with demands for work etc. We sure as hell don't feel protected. |
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"He’s not hero on my eyes, shot and killed 16-year-old boy, somebody’s son, convicted of murder later dropped to manslaughter refused parole several times because he was considered dangerous. I’m sure he didn’t need to kill that young boy, but he chose to.
This is the succinct point in this whole case. Did the two 16 year old lads do wrong? Yes, think we all agree on that.
Do 16 year olds deserve the death penalty for breaking and entering? Anybody is free to answer to that however they wish. Me? I agree with the law and say no.
- Charles "
Only 1 was 16.the other was 28.
The 16 year old had over 20 previous arrests including assaulting a police officer..
That's why I won't call him a boy or child or kiddie widdie.. as some on here do.
If you enter a home uninvited you should lose all legal rights to protection...
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The other scum who sadly lived tried to sue Mr Martin, but unfortunately for him he got recalled to prison for stealing a car whilst on probation for dealing heroin. His compensation claim was dismissed because the Sun newspaper filmed him riding bikes amongst other things.
Make of that what you will , while you clutch your pearls .
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"The bit that’s missed is that his farm was being burgled repeatedly, not just once.
Imagine that was your house and it was repeatedly being burgled.
I think it’s easy to judge before you’ve lived their experience or “walked a mile in their shoes”.
Again this is where truth and story get muddied. The official police statements did state they were aware who Mr Martin was he often turned up at the local police station and liked to hang around. But he had not reported any of the alleged "10 incidents" before, only using that later as part of his defence in court. The incident with the two lads is the only time the police - officially - were aware of the farm being burgled.
We have to remember these were the actions of a man officially diagnosed with a paranoid personality disorder. also have to remember if the burglars had been choir boys, both would still be singing in church on Sunday mornings"
Absolutely the point.
Were the 16 year old lads doing wrong by breaking into private property? Yes. The law is clear on that.
Is setting a trap and lying in wait with a loaded shotgun doing wrong? Yes. The law is clear on that too.
Can you use reasonable force to defend yourself, loved ones and property if someone breaks into your home and you genuinely believe you are at risk of death and/or great bodily harm? Yes, you can, the law is clear on that also.
Can you give the burglar "a damn good hiding" and break few of his bones for the sheer audacity of breaking in? No, you can't. The law is also very clear on that.
Hope that clears any misunderstandings and may prove useful.
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"The bit that’s missed is that his farm was being burgled repeatedly, not just once.
Imagine that was your house and it was repeatedly being burgled.
I think it’s easy to judge before you’ve lived their experience or “walked a mile in their shoes”.
Again this is where truth and story get muddied. The official police statements did state they were aware who Mr Martin was he often turned up at the local police station and liked to hang around. But he had not reported any of the alleged "10 incidents" before, only using that later as part of his defence in court. The incident with the two lads is the only time the police - officially - were aware of the farm being burgled.
We have to remember these were the actions of a man officially diagnosed with a paranoid personality disorder. also have to remember if the burglars had been choir boys, both would still be singing in church on Sunday mornings
Absolutely the point.
Were the 16 year old lads doing wrong by breaking into private property? Yes. The law is clear on that.
Is setting a trap and lying in wait with a loaded shotgun doing wrong? Yes. The law is clear on that too.
Can you use reasonable force to defend yourself, loved ones and property if someone breaks into your home and you genuinely believe you are at risk of death and/or great bodily harm? Yes, you can, the law is clear on that also.
Can you give the burglar "a damn good hiding" and break few of his bones for the sheer audacity of breaking in? No, you can't. The law is also very clear on that.
Hope that clears any misunderstandings and may prove useful.
"
...
Only one was 16..the other 28..
How would Tony Martin be in wait...did he know the date the criminals would visit another county to commit burglary ?
The police were previously called ( and recorded ) an incident at the farm when a land rover was shot at,so not the first incident. |
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According to the trial..the incident took place in pitch black..
How would Tony Martin know the age of anyone present,or if the people had knives or guns on them.or even if they were running away..it was in darkness. |
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Reading the report on his death on the BBC news website makes me very glad I stopped paying my licence fee last year.
All the way through the article they refer to him as Martin, yet they call a burglar Fred. Twats.  |
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"The bit that’s missed is that his farm was being burgled repeatedly, not just once.
Imagine that was your house and it was repeatedly being burgled.
I think it’s easy to judge before you’ve lived their experience or “walked a mile in their shoes”.
Again this is where truth and story get muddied. The official police statements did state they were aware who Mr Martin was he often turned up at the local police station and liked to hang around. But he had not reported any of the alleged "10 incidents" before, only using that later as part of his defence in court. The incident with the two lads is the only time the police - officially - were aware of the farm being burgled.
We have to remember these were the actions of a man officially diagnosed with a paranoid personality disorder. "
To be fair, it was a documentary that I watched regarding this. I didn’t fact check. |
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"The bit that’s missed is that his farm was being burgled repeatedly, not just once.
Imagine that was your house and it was repeatedly being burgled.
I think it’s easy to judge before you’ve lived their experience or “walked a mile in their shoes”.
Again this is where truth and story get muddied. The official police statements did state they were aware who Mr Martin was he often turned up at the local police station and liked to hang around. But he had not reported any of the alleged "10 incidents" before, only using that later as part of his defence in court. The incident with the two lads is the only time the police - officially - were aware of the farm being burgled.
We have to remember these were the actions of a man officially diagnosed with a paranoid personality disorder. also have to remember if the burglars had been choir boys, both would still be singing in church on Sunday mornings
Absolutely the point.
Were the 16 year old lads doing wrong by breaking into private property? Yes. The law is clear on that.
Is setting a trap and lying in wait with a loaded shotgun doing wrong? Yes. The law is clear on that too.
Can you use reasonable force to defend yourself, loved ones and property if someone breaks into your home and you genuinely believe you are at risk of death and/or great bodily harm? Yes, you can, the law is clear on that also.
Can you give the burglar "a damn good hiding" and break few of his bones for the sheer audacity of breaking in? No, you can't. The law is also very clear on that.
Hope that clears any misunderstandings and may prove useful.
"
This is correct. The trouble is that the law is not clear on this. Reasonable force is subjective to the perceived threat.
An example of this is that if an air rifle pointed at you was mistaken for a real rifle, would lethal force be acceptable? |
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"If light fingered scrotes were shot at more frequently, i'm fairly sure there would be less light fingered scrotes around"
Really? They go in for that kind of thing in America yet their crime rate is higher than ours.
Also, if the light fingered scrotes thought they’d be shot at, what do you think they’d be carrying with them? |
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By *bi HaiveMan 6 days ago
Forum Mod Cheeseville, Somerset |
"If light fingered scrotes were shot at more frequently, i'm fairly sure there would be less light fingered scrotes around"
I doubt it.
They'd just carry weapons with them instead of going burgling unarmed.
We'd soon be mirroring America where you're more likely to die yourself defending your property with a firearm. Not something I'd ever like to see over here. |
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"The bit that’s missed is that his farm was being burgled repeatedly, not just once.
Imagine that was your house and it was repeatedly being burgled.
I think it’s easy to judge before you’ve lived their experience or “walked a mile in their shoes”.
Again this is where truth and story get muddied. The official police statements did state they were aware who Mr Martin was he often turned up at the local police station and liked to hang around. But he had not reported any of the alleged "10 incidents" before, only using that later as part of his defence in court. The incident with the two lads is the only time the police - officially - were aware of the farm being burgled.
We have to remember these were the actions of a man officially diagnosed with a paranoid personality disorder. also have to remember if the burglars had been choir boys, both would still be singing in church on Sunday mornings"
Well said, neither of the two repeat criminals needed to be on his property but they chose to one the less. I couldn't care less that a 16 year old died as a result of his selfish actions but then I'm not trying to virtue signal and just giving my opinion and tbh I'd do the same thing to protect myself and properly from such blatant criminal scum. |
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The law is very clear on what counts as proportionate force.
Mr Martin was either unaware of that or chose to ignore it. Ignorance is not a defence in the eyes of the law.
No does the jurisdiction of the law stop at his boundary.
If it did, then vigilantism would reign supreme, and down that path lies madness.
His actions placed him "above" the law and the law takes a very dim view on those who step outside the boundaries. |
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"The law is very clear on what counts as proportionate force.
Mr Martin was either unaware of that or chose to ignore it. Ignorance is not a defence in the eyes of the law.
No does the jurisdiction of the law stop at his boundary.
If it did, then vigilantism would reign supreme, and down that path lies madness.
His actions placed him "above" the law and the law takes a very dim view on those who step outside the boundaries."
Rumpole
C. 1982 |
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"The bit that’s missed is that his farm was being burgled repeatedly, not just once.
Imagine that was your house and it was repeatedly being burgled.
I think it’s easy to judge before you’ve lived their experience or “walked a mile in their shoes”.
Again this is where truth and story get muddied. The official police statements did state they were aware who Mr Martin was he often turned up at the local police station and liked to hang around. But he had not reported any of the alleged "10 incidents" before, only using that later as part of his defence in court. The incident with the two lads is the only time the police - officially - were aware of the farm being burgled.
We have to remember these were the actions of a man officially diagnosed with a paranoid personality disorder. also have to remember if the burglars had been choir boys, both would still be singing in church on Sunday mornings
Absolutely the point.
Were the 16 year old lads doing wrong by breaking into private property? Yes. The law is clear on that.
Is setting a trap and lying in wait with a loaded shotgun doing wrong? Yes. The law is clear on that too.
Can you use reasonable force to defend yourself, loved ones and property if someone breaks into your home and you genuinely believe you are at risk of death and/or great bodily harm? Yes, you can, the law is clear on that also.
Can you give the burglar "a damn good hiding" and break few of his bones for the sheer audacity of breaking in? No, you can't. The law is also very clear on that.
Hope that clears any misunderstandings and may prove useful.
This is correct. The trouble is that the law is not clear on this. Reasonable force is subjective to the perceived threat.
An example of this is that if an air rifle pointed at you was mistaken for a real rifle, would lethal force be acceptable? "
The term "reasonable" is of course we may think a potential grey area. However, in this context it is defined as what the public in general at that moment in time would deem as appropriate. So in your example if someone points a gun shaped object at you and threatens to kill you then if you end up using lethal force against them then that would be acceptable. What would be essential is when you give your initial statement to the police and stick by it without ever deviating. If you maintain that you genuinely perceived your life was in danger at that moment then your defence meets the criteria. You are not a firearms expert but you know enough that a gun can hurt or kill you. That is enough for you to "reasonably" perceive a threat. To stop someone killing you may have to kill them. After all if armed police are called to the scene of someone pointing a gun at you, be it a real one or not, their policy is also shoot to kill if they feel you or themselves are similarly threatened. They do not shoot to injure. Injured people can still shoot back.
What of course you shouldn't do later is under any cross examination or even chatting "off the record" is blurt out "Well I knew it was only an airgun, and not even loaded, but I gave the little scrote it anyway". Or something that undermines that you were in genuine fear of your life at that moment. You get the picture I am sure.
So the law is kept vague (maybe the wrong word but it'll have to do) as each case can be individual.
One aspect of the Martin case that people commenting here may not be aware of is that he "made it known" around his local area and in the trade that he had a substantial haul of antiques and that he "might" be away from the farm a lot. This is one of the reasons the pair of burglars travelled from another county to target his farm.
Martin had already shot at someone for scrumping from his orchard and had his firearms license revoked (it was VERY easy for farmers to gain a license back then) so the case made by the prosecution was he had planned to catch someone. And they secured a sound conviction partly on this basis. It was only later after further tests that Martin was found to suffer paranoid delusions and the conviction downgraded.
But anyway that is what is meant by "reasonable force" in the context of self defence. |
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"The other scum who sadly lived tried to sue Mr Martin, but unfortunately for him he got recalled to prison for stealing a car whilst on probation for dealing heroin. His compensation claim was dismissed because the Sun newspaper filmed him riding bikes amongst other things.
Make of that what you will , while you clutch your pearls .
"
I don't disagree with a lot of what you say but I do disagree with your attempts to place anyone with an opposing view into categories for ridicule e.g. pearl clutchers.... If your points are strong enough and well made you wouldn't need to do that. |
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By *ild_oatsMan 5 days ago
the land of saints & sinners |
Shooting someone dead because they broke into your house is certainly not the mark of a true hero.
Targeting someone house for repeat burglary is also vile.
How the true crime is the failure of the criminal justice system.
I can hear the howling of the lock em up and throw away the keys brigade already.
Harsher sentences do not work all the evidence and research shows that. But that always falls on deaf ears with advocates that.
Time to look at systems that do work.
It costs a lot more to keep someone in prison than programs that prevent people falling into a lifetime of crime. Address the root causes and the tragedy of someone losing their life like this might be avoided.
If you treat people like animals then they will behave like animals. |
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"Shooting someone dead because they broke into your house is certainly not the mark of a true hero.
Targeting someone house for repeat burglary is also vile.
How the true crime is the failure of the criminal justice system.
I can hear the howling of the lock em up and throw away the keys brigade already.
Harsher sentences do not work all the evidence and research shows that. But that always falls on deaf ears with advocates that.
Time to look at systems that do work.
It costs a lot more to keep someone in prison than programs that prevent people falling into a lifetime of crime. Address the root causes and the tragedy of someone losing their life like this might be avoided.
If you treat people like animals then they will behave like animals."
Could not agree more with this post. |
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Shot a kid in the back killing them, wounding the other (I note he used birdshot and not 12 bore cartridge).
Was finally found guilty of manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility.
The 16 year old he killed had at the time of their death 29 convictions but no need to kill him. |
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