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Guns dont kill, people do.
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By *hagTonight OP Man 32 weeks ago
From the land of haribos. |
With the latest happening in america, trump was very luck this time, is it time for a tigher gun law? There is a gun for every person there, you can argue that a sane person dont reach for a gun, what is your view?  |
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By (user no longer on site) 32 weeks ago
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This isn’t a now problem. The time for gun law reform was the year of the first public mass shooting. It was sometime in the 1960s. Nothing was done at that time, and nothing will be done.
As long as politicians are driven by “donations” of lobby groups it will not change. Reform democracy is more like it.
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America is a different country to us. Superficially it looks and sounds like us but it isn’t. They are still fairly close to their origin roots and those roots relied on guns. They think and act differently to us and trying to put a British view on what they should do makes no sense.
We need strong gun laws here. That is all we can control. Our views on what they should do are irrelevant. |
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A tool is a tool.
Im not for guns but in the US are easier to track to the owner.
They do a ban or reduce the amount of guns there is going to be a lot of firearms that are going to be undetectable.
The black market will become bigger.
In the UK a ban on pistol grip firearms however alot of shootings (they very rarely Media hightlight it) are not traceable or accountable.
Look at the recent case with the crossbow again something that you can buy on the Internet very easily with no background checks.
Look at the UK knife crime, and murder rate and we have a BAN on guns
People will kill people. A tool is a tool. |
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By *ripfillMan 32 weeks ago
Paris, New York, Hong Kong and Havant |
The USA the approx same number of guns available per head in their domestic population is v similar to Canada ! Fact
However …. The deaths though gun crime are hugely less in Canada
Also my should a military rifle and automatic weapons be sold over the counter ?
Yes it’s the Person who pulls the trigger is the killer not the gun |
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By (user no longer on site) 32 weeks ago
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For those of us that have had pretty good experience delving into and experience the American way of life, I hesitate at saying culture, you will know just how toxic this country is.
In conversation recently i foolishly tried to argue that when the second amendment was adopted it took about 5 minutes to prepare a musket to fire one three eighth diameter iron ball. The founding fathers didn’t think that 248 years on you could buy an automatic weapon from Walmart that fires a thousand rounds a minute. The septics I was talking to would not accept that argument and with technological advances perhaps the second amendment needs another coat of looking at?
As Oscar Wilde commented America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence whilst conveniently missing out civilisation. |
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"America is a different country to us. Superficially it looks and sounds like us but it isn’t. They are still fairly close to their origin roots and those roots relied on guns. They think and act differently to us and trying to put a British view on what they should do makes no sense.
We need strong gun laws here. That is all we can control. Our views on what they should do are irrelevant."
^^^^
That. |
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There is no other country in the world that has the same or even similar numbers of mass shootings as the USA. There is no need for any civilian to have access to the kind of firearms that are easily accessible in the USA. |
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Ok, so it's in thier constitution. So doubt it will ever change.
Spoke to loads of people in the USA. If anyone was to run for President calling for ban of guns. Well, they said he/she he would never be President lol
Had this debate with someone else. If people want to kill or mass kill they will just find other ways. Not exactly hard to do lol
Banning guns just means the only people with guns on the streets are the police and the criminals. |
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By *hilloutMan 32 weeks ago
All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest |
This has been discussed numerous times in the past.
Unless you've lived there and experienced quintessential "Americana", people cannot wrap their heads around how fiercely protective Americans can be regarding the 2nd Amendment. It's ingrained in their collective psyche.
Guns are the instrument through which people kill, like anything else. The increase in gun violence (mass shootings) the past few decades is closely linked with the general decline in mental health of the populace. The vast majority of these perpetrators were seriously disturbed people. Instead of banning firearms, additional checks could be put in place.
If I were still living there, I'd be trained in their use and would likely have several for self defence. I would certainly oppose any restrictions to my possession of them as a law abiding citizen. |
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By *batMan 32 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"A tool is a tool.
Im not for guns but in the US are easier to track to the owner.
They do a ban or reduce the amount of guns there is going to be a lot of firearms that are going to be undetectable.
The black market will become bigger.
In the UK a ban on pistol grip firearms however alot of shootings (they very rarely Media hightlight it) are not traceable or accountable.
Look at the recent case with the crossbow again something that you can buy on the Internet very easily with no background checks.
Look at the UK knife crime, and murder rate and we have a BAN on guns
People will kill people. A tool is a tool."
Not sure what data you are looking at, but the murder rate in the USA is higher than that of the UK.
A country that has to teach its kids to avoid active school shooters has a few problems, don’t you think?
Gbat |
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By *batMan 32 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Ok, so it's in thier constitution. So doubt it will ever change.
Spoke to loads of people in the USA. If anyone was to run for President calling for ban of guns. Well, they said he/she he would never be President lol
Had this debate with someone else. If people want to kill or mass kill they will just find other ways. Not exactly hard to do lol
Banning guns just means the only people with guns on the streets are the police and the criminals. "
It’s an amendment to their constitution so the argument that it can’t be changed doesn’t seem very strong!
Of course a mass killer could choose a different method, but why make it easy by selling assault rifles?
And what’s so wrong with only the security forces and criminals possessing firearms? How does it help if anyone and everyone has a gun?
Gbat |
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"Ok, so it's in thier constitution. So doubt it will ever change.
Spoke to loads of people in the USA. If anyone was to run for President calling for ban of guns. Well, they said he/she he would never be President lol
Had this debate with someone else. If people want to kill or mass kill they will just find other ways. Not exactly hard to do lol
Banning guns just means the only people with guns on the streets are the police and the criminals.
It’s an amendment to their constitution so the argument that it can’t be changed doesn’t seem very strong!
Of course a mass killer could choose a different method, but why make it easy by selling assault rifles?
And what’s so wrong with only the security forces and criminals possessing firearms? How does it help if anyone and everyone has a gun?
Gbat "
Criminal breaks into house with a gun, you could shoot them I guess lol
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By *batMan 32 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Criminal breaks into house with a gun, you could shoot them I guess lol
"
Or shoot an innocent young black man who knocks on your door for a good reason?
In reality though, are you dashing to your gun safe, loading your weapon, getting a line of sight and being mentally prepared to shoot someone? And all in the time that it takes for the intruder to level their ready prepared weapon at you?
Hmmmhh! Hollywood does a good job of portraying just this scenario!
Gbat |
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Part of the problem is we look at it through a 'uk' or European viewpoint. We are used to having the police turn up almost immediately if there's a real problem. I rang them once because there was a gang of men marching down the street with all sorts of weapons. Before they had even gone 500yds 3 cop cars and a van pulled up with 8 officers. In the US that can a) take ages (it's huge) and b) they don't have the resources. So it becomes imperative you can defend yourself. That's partly why, a lot of normal people still believe in the gun laws. Couple that with a nationwide drug problem and I'm pretty sure if I lived there I would want a gun |
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"The USA the approx same number of guns available per head in their domestic population is v similar to Canada ! Fact
However …. The deaths though gun crime are hugely less in Canada
Also my should a military rifle and automatic weapons be sold over the counter ?
Yes it’s the Person who pulls the trigger is the killer not the gun "
Could you post your source on Canada having similar gun ownership per capita as the USA ?
I've googled the subject. Looked at various sites and charts and the highest Canada was 7th on one of the lists. With a quarter of the guns per capita of the USA. On all the charts, the USA is head and shoulders above whoever is 2nd. |
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By *hagTonight OP Man 32 weeks ago
From the land of haribos. |
"Unfortunately because of the nra and their political donations it will never happen "
Yes, one of the reasons are the nra. I wonder if trump will change it if he wins, especially after what happened to him too?
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By (user no longer on site) 32 weeks ago
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"Just put of curiosity. What do US laws on guns/rifles have to do with us in the UK?
Thier country, thier laws.
"
Yes a good point if somewhat simplistic.
There is something perverse and something of the night about a country that permits a 17 year old (in some states) to purchase a high powered weapon with very little by way of information or validation documentary evidence but on the other hand denies the rights of women to governance over their body?
It a funny country the USA don’t you think? |
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By (user no longer on site) 32 weeks ago
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"Unfortunately because of the nra and their political donations it will never happen Yes, one of the reasons are the nra. I wonder if trump will change it if he wins, especially after what happened to him too?"
Trump is being told what to do and say with regards to reconciliation and all the other unity plaudits he can sign up to. His PR people will be saying to him just keep it simple be statesman like and you’ve won! |
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By (user no longer on site) 32 weeks ago
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It will never change. It is such a big part of their lifestyle. They sell it as a wholesome family activity.
Having spent some time stateside it is like us going to a football match.
I turned up to a range there once and a young girl got out of the car next to me with her own pink shotgun. It is literally bred into them.
Then there is the NRA. They have more say than all of the political parties.
I have travelled the world with the military and America still has me on edge. You have no idea who is carrying a weapon. |
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"Criminal breaks into house with a gun, you could shoot them I guess lol
Or shoot an innocent young black man who knocks on your door for a good reason?
In reality though, are you dashing to your gun safe, loading your weapon, getting a line of sight and being mentally prepared to shoot someone? And all in the time that it takes for the intruder to level their ready prepared weapon at you?
Hmmmhh! Hollywood does a good job of portraying just this scenario!
Gbat "
I didn't say knock the door. I said break in.
I.e entered property without permission. So he's not come to sell me double glazing lol
And yes I have been trained on handguns and rifles so yes, I would be prepared to pull that trigger and save family lol |
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"Guns*do* kill and they allow people to kill more people, more efficiently.
That old thing about 'guns don't kill, people do' is a distraction "
Yes it is a total cop-out.
When’s the last time a gun unlocked itself from its cabinet, went to a school and shot someone?
Never. People with guns kill people |
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It really doesn't matter at this point. You can't put it back in the box, it is far too big a part of the culture, especially in certain states. Even still as a young(ish) country, you have generations of a way of life to be changed.
For it to have any chance to take hold it would need to be done very slowly and gradually over many (many!!!) years. Phasing changes a bit at a time. |
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"It really doesn't matter at this point. You can't put it back in the box, it is far too big a part of the culture, especially in certain states. Even still as a young(ish) country, you have generations of a way of life to be changed.
For it to have any chance to take hold it would need to be done very slowly and gradually over many (many!!!) years. Phasing changes a bit at a time."
Yes. Bit hard to get the shit back into the dog at this stage |
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In many ways the US has not evolved socially in the same way as most of Europe. It’s polarised and conflicted in many ways, mostly down to being the size that it is.
With the population being generally quite inward looking (only 43% of US citizens have Passports), often reinforcing their particular social subdivisions with quite extreme beliefs in ‘rights’ that were established when the US was a lawless wasteland. Guns have no place in modern society, but too many US citizens don’t believe that, despite the numerous shootings that must be totally devastating. |
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"Ok, so it's in thier constitution. So doubt it will ever change.
Spoke to loads of people in the USA. If anyone was to run for President calling for ban of guns. Well, they said he/she he would never be President lol
Had this debate with someone else. If people want to kill or mass kill they will just find other ways. Not exactly hard to do lol
Banning guns just means the only people with guns on the streets are the police and the criminals.
It’s an amendment to their constitution so the argument that it can’t be changed doesn’t seem very strong!
Of course a mass killer could choose a different method, but why make it easy by selling assault rifles?
And what’s so wrong with only the security forces and criminals possessing firearms? How does it help if anyone and everyone has a gun?
Gbat
Criminal breaks into house with a gun, you could shoot them I guess lol
"
Hot burglary, when the homeowner is home, in the States is much lower per capita than the UK.
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By *batMan 32 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Criminal breaks into house with a gun, you could shoot them I guess lol
Or shoot an innocent young black man who knocks on your door for a good reason?
In reality though, are you dashing to your gun safe, loading your weapon, getting a line of sight and being mentally prepared to shoot someone? And all in the time that it takes for the intruder to level their ready prepared weapon at you?
Hmmmhh! Hollywood does a good job of portraying just this scenario!
Gbat
I didn't say knock the door. I said break in.
I.e entered property without permission. So he's not come to sell me double glazing lol
And yes I have been trained on handguns and rifles so yes, I would be prepared to pull that trigger and save family lol"
I didn’t say you’d said knock the door. But you know that really happened don’t you? A young man was shot dead for knocking on the wrong door. I mention it as it’s a problematic spin off of gun ownership.
And if you’re trained in firearms, you’ll understand the rest of that paragraph you didn’t reference.
Will you have enough time to get your weapon from the safe, load it, get yourself into a tactically advantageous position and only then, pull the trigger?
You seem to be glossing over a lot of what you’d need to do and just talk about the end point.
Gbat |
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"Sandy Hook was the moment where this might be turned around.
Americans (or at least Americans with the power to change anything) showed us who they are in that moment, and we should believe them."
To be fair, this was clear a long time before Sandy Hook |
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Trying to say it's the person's fault and not the gun remains as pointless as it ever has.
If you have a lot of people in your society who cannot be trusted to own a gun, then they shouldn't have guns. It's really straightforward.
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"Criminal breaks into house with a gun, you could shoot them I guess lol
Or shoot an innocent young black man who knocks on your door for a good reason?
In reality though, are you dashing to your gun safe, loading your weapon, getting a line of sight and being mentally prepared to shoot someone? And all in the time that it takes for the intruder to level their ready prepared weapon at you?
Hmmmhh! Hollywood does a good job of portraying just this scenario!
Gbat
I didn't say knock the door. I said break in.
I.e entered property without permission. So he's not come to sell me double glazing lol
And yes I have been trained on handguns and rifles so yes, I would be prepared to pull that trigger and save family lol"
You add “lol” to a sentence in which you say you would be prepared to shoot someone? |
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"A tool is a tool.
Im not for guns but in the US are easier to track to the owner.
They do a ban or reduce the amount of guns there is going to be a lot of firearms that are going to be undetectable.
The black market will become bigger.
In the UK a ban on pistol grip firearms however alot of shootings (they very rarely Media hightlight it) are not traceable or accountable.
Look at the recent case with the crossbow again something that you can buy on the Internet very easily with no background checks.
Look at the UK knife crime, and murder rate and we have a BAN on guns
People will kill people. A tool is a tool.
Not sure what data you are looking at, but the murder rate in the USA is higher than that of the UK.
A country that has to teach its kids to avoid active school shooters has a few problems, don’t you think?
Gbat "
Our murder rate is lower iv never said we was with a gun ban we still have a gun murder.
I think people forget how big the United States of America is put i perspective Texas is three and a half times the size of the the UK with a third of the population. Thats one state.
333.3m people in the USA where 66.9m in the UK.
And the gun crime in the states includes suicide in its stats. Which is a big % of the stats.
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By *ee04Man 32 weeks ago
Essex |
The 2nd amendment is the right to bear arms, ratified in 1791. Based partially on the English bill of rights 1689. Sir William Blackstone described this right as an auxiliary right, supporting the natural rights of self-defence and resistance to oppression, and the civic duty to act in concert in defence of the state.
So technically it’s based on an English law from almost 350 years ago.
The US also still has capital punishment as a penalty in 27 of the 50 states. It can also be imposed in a federal trial.
Should guns be allowed? There are legitimate uses for owning a gun, hunting, self defence of your home and to me this is where it ends
Anyone who feels the need to walk the streets bearing an assault rifle, should be banned immediately from ever owning one. In fact I don’t see why any civilian should feel the need to own an assault rifle. They were designed for 1 purpose, killing people.
We as a society are mor sophisticated than Americans on some levels.
I read a previous comment about not having the funds for policing that is because average income tax in the US is 14.9%. Also being the senior policing authority in a lot of places in the US is a popularity contest based on election of a sheriff. Watch the Netflix documentary on Flint Michigan were the police and fire service budget was under threat after a mileage vote. Scary stuff if it happened here and in my humble opinion backward.
Another commented on mental health, I ask myself why is this a modern problem surely humans have had this issue all along? Surely if we go back in time the majority of people had it a lot tougher than we do today with a lot more pressure.
Then we look at ourselves, a call for crossbows to be banned will this include bows and arrows? I have shot a bow for years I enjoy the challenge of target shooting. I’ve owned crossbows in the passed to again shoot at a target. I own air rifles for vermin control and again target shooting. I have a shotgun and licence for clay pigeon shooting. I have lots of knives in the kitchen when will they be banned will I soon be cutting my steak with a spoon?
For me it’s simple, there needs to be less guns and more checks on who can own one with the reasons clearly defined for owning.
What need do you need to have a concealed carry for? What need do you have to go and protest carrying an assault rifle?
I have to undergo checks of my home and the storage of my shotgun and ammunition. To me my shotgun is there for the same reason as my golf clubs. It is not there for self defence it’s for me to challenge my skill against a piece of plastic thrown in the air. |
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"
I didn’t say you’d said knock the door. But you know that really happened don’t you? A young man was shot dead for knocking on the wrong door. I mention it as it’s a problematic spin off of gun ownership.
And if you’re trained in firearms, you’ll understand the rest of that paragraph you didn’t reference.
Will you have enough time to get your weapon from the safe, load it, get yourself into a tactically advantageous position and only then, pull the trigger?
You seem to be glossing over a lot of what you’d need to do and just talk about the end point.
Gbat "
How often has it happened that a random person knocking a door was shot dead?
As for going for a gun in an emergency, I don't think people always keep them in locked safe the way you say. They typically keep them within reach. If they hear some noise in the house, they should be able to load it on time.
One issue people seem to miss when they talk about US is how huge the country is and how spread across their population is. If you are living in the suburbs, your protection is in your own hands. You can't expect police or even neighbours to notice anything and help you.
Not to mention the fact that the size of the country makes it impossible to enforce any bans in practice. That would mean it's only the dodgy people who end up getting hold of guns. |
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By *batMan 32 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
People don't keep their firearms locked in a safe? No wonder their death rate is so high!
Lots of data here rather than us arguing the toss.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/
There are lots of countries with dispersed populations that don't have the rate of gun deaths that the US has.
This "protection being in their own hands" idea that you have, that's the crux of what we are talking about here. The proliferation of guns makes protecting the population HARDER not easier.
Gbat |
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"
There are lots of countries with dispersed populations that don't have the rate of gun deaths that the US has.
"
Which countries?
"
This "protection being in their own hands" idea that you have, that's the crux of what we are talking about here. The proliferation of guns makes protecting the population HARDER not easier.
"
The problem is that you can't prevent this proliferation in a country like US. They have invested billions in war against dr&gs and see where they are now. If you impose restrictions, it's only the law abiding people who would end up following them. Criminals will continue to use firearms.
So it's not a matter of freedom to own guns vs gun restrictions. It's about gun ownership for everyone vs gun ownership for just the criminals. |
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I don’t have an issue with guns for self defence in the USA.
I have an issue with the type of guns, ammunition and magazines available which are the assault type weapons. They are beyond the scope of self defence. |
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By *hagTonight OP Man 32 weeks ago
From the land of haribos. |
"you can argue that a sane person dont reach for a gun, what is your view?
If a sane person won't reach for their gun, what is the point of them owning one ?"
I guess it is because of their gun culture, because of that, they might feel they need to have one, it is deeply ingrained in american society too. |
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I remember Obama saying that as long as the NRA is going, you won't be able to control who has them. This was said after one of the school shootings.
He wanted to implement additional screenings, for new and current gun owners. |
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"
There are lots of countries with dispersed populations that don't have the rate of gun deaths that the US has.
Which countries?
This "protection being in their own hands" idea that you have, that's the crux of what we are talking about here. The proliferation of guns makes protecting the population HARDER not easier.
The problem is that you can't prevent this proliferation in a country like US. They have invested billions in war against dr&gs and see where they are now. If you impose restrictions, it's only the law abiding people who would end up following them. Criminals will continue to use firearms.
So it's not a matter of freedom to own guns vs gun restrictions. It's about gun ownership for everyone vs gun ownership for just the criminals."
Same here in uk. All the criminals have guns. They aren’t controlled, screened or licensed. It’s only the legal owners who end up penalised.
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It's going to be a bloodbath when the results of their next election come in. If the democrats win, then plenty of maga cultists with more guns than they know what to do with are not going to accept it, and will basically start another civil war. If trump wins then those same people are going to take it as license for the "winners" to go on a rampage against the "enemy losers", and democrats will have to use their own guns just to protect themselves. Then the autocratic measures that trump dictates, with the worst of the republicans using The Handmaid's Tale as an instruction book instead of a warning, will lead to democratic states having to go to war just in order to try to hang onto their civilised way of life.
Whatever, a hell of a lot of those guns that both sides have got will be used either in offence or defence. The violence will make the Bosnian War look like a Sunday picnic. |
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The right to bare arms was born out of the people having the ability to protect themselves against a corrupt government.
Look at what happened in China when they removed their right to bare arms. Communist party moved in and massacred hundreds of thousands of their people.
I think the day the American people lose their right to bare arms, is the day we will see a very orwellian society.
The day the armies of the world give up their weapons is the day I'll support the people giving theirs up.
Jacque fresco "a future by design" is a very interesting documentary to watch. He outlines the way society could be and how a resource based economy would help eradicate a lot of the violence we see in the world. We have enough to provide for the world over, multiple times, but we are controlled by psychotic,power hungry demons that are hell bent on watching the world burn. |
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"If there's no guns people will use rocks"
Or a board with a nail in it, and then they'll make bigger boards and bigger nails, and soon, they will make a board with a nail so big, it will destroy them all! |
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"If there's no guns people will use rocks
True. But less people would die that way. Drive-by rock-throwing is more difficult "
But far more respectable. Takes skill to kill a person with a pebble from distance whilst both moving |
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"The right to bare arms was born out of the people having the ability to protect themselves against a corrupt government.
Look at what happened in China when they removed their right to bare arms. Communist party moved in and massacred hundreds of thousands of their people.
I think the day the American people lose their right to bare arms, is the day we will see a very orwellian society.
The day the armies of the world give up their weapons is the day I'll support the people giving theirs up.
Jacque fresco "a future by design" is a very interesting documentary to watch. He outlines the way society could be and how a resource based economy would help eradicate a lot of the violence we see in the world. We have enough to provide for the world over, multiple times, but we are controlled by psychotic,power hungry demons that are hell bent on watching the world burn. "
You left religious zealots off the list.  |
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By *batMan 32 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"There are lots of countries with dispersed populations that don't have the rate of gun deaths that the US has.
Which countries? "
Off the top of my head? Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Ireland. That's without checking any data.
" If you impose restrictions, it's only the law abiding people who would end up following them. Criminals will continue to use firearms.
So it's not a matter of freedom to own guns vs gun restrictions. It's about gun ownership for everyone vs gun ownership for just the criminals."
No, it isn't. Less guns is better.
Of course the security forces will still have firearms so it's not just the villains is it? Law abiding citizens owning guns doesn't make the US safer. Go back and look at the data.
Gbat |
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"There are lots of countries with dispersed populations that don't have the rate of gun deaths that the US has.
Which countries?
Off the top of my head? Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Ireland. That's without checking any data.
If you impose restrictions, it's only the law abiding people who would end up following them. Criminals will continue to use firearms.
So it's not a matter of freedom to own guns vs gun restrictions. It's about gun ownership for everyone vs gun ownership for just the criminals.
No, it isn't. Less guns is better.
Of course the security forces will still have firearms so it's not just the villains is it? Law abiding citizens owning guns doesn't make the US safer. Go back and look at the data.
Gbat "
I work in close quarter protection. Guns are a part of my day to day. I firmly believe if the government and police have access to weapons, so should the people. History shows us time and time again it's never too long before those in power abuse it when they take the power of defence away from it's people |
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"There are lots of countries with dispersed populations that don't have the rate of gun deaths that the US has.
Which countries?
Off the top of my head? Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Ireland. That's without checking any data.
"
You are confusing countries with lots of land not being populated with people just being spread across like American suburbs? Not to mention the fact that every country you mentioned is an Island that makes it easier to enforce gun control.
"
No, it isn't. Less guns is better.
Of course the security forces will still have firearms so it's not just the villains is it?
"
Security forces can't be everywhere, can they? You just have to look at how often burglaries are even investigated in the UK |
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By (user no longer on site) 32 weeks ago
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"There are lots of countries with dispersed populations that don't have the rate of gun deaths that the US has.
Which countries?
Off the top of my head? Australia, New Zealand, Scotland, Ireland. That's without checking any data.
If you impose restrictions, it's only the law abiding people who would end up following them. Criminals will continue to use firearms.
So it's not a matter of freedom to own guns vs gun restrictions. It's about gun ownership for everyone vs gun ownership for just the criminals.
No, it isn't. Less guns is better.
Of course the security forces will still have firearms so it's not just the villains is it? Law abiding citizens owning guns doesn't make the US safer. Go back and look at the data.
Gbat
I work in close quarter protection. Guns are a part of my day to day. I firmly believe if the government and police have access to weapons, so should the people. History shows us time and time again it's never too long before those in power abuse it when they take the power of defence away from it's people"
It always concerns me when people fess up to being in the biz, no real need to advertise such matters.
Access to fire arms need to be very strictly supervised turning up at Walmart with a note from your mum allowing you to purchase an ADFSnot the way forward. |
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By *batMan 32 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Anywhere large amount of persons who own guns crime is low"
Can you share your data?
The US has a much higher homicide rate than the UK and lots more guns.
Gbat |
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By *batMan 32 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
Quick Google search. These are UN figures.
The US had a homicide rate of 6,383 people per 100,000
Wales and England had a homicide rate of 1,148 per 100,000.
Basically, you’re more than 5 times more likely to be murdered in the US compared to that part of the UK. It’s even safer in Scotland but less safe in Northern Ireland.
Check it out for yourself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Gbat |
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"Quick Google search. These are UN figures.
The US had a homicide rate of 6,383 people per 100,000
Wales and England had a homicide rate of 1,148 per 100,000.
Basically, you’re more than 5 times more likely to be murdered in the US compared to that part of the UK. It’s even safer in Scotland but less safe in Northern Ireland.
Check it out for yourself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Gbat "
So? Singapore and Japan have much lower homicide rates compared to UK. Would you be happy to adapt a strict social structure the way they do? |
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By *batMan 32 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"You are confusing countries with lots of land not being populated with people just being spread across like American suburbs? "
No, I'm not. You mentioned the US has a spread out population and I've shown you other countries with a spread out population that don't have the same issues with self defence.
"Not to mention the fact that every country you mentioned is an Island that makes it easier to enforce gun control."
Ireland has a land border with Northern Ireland.
Scotland has a land border with England.
But apart from that, you do know just how big Australia is right? It's not the Isle of Wight FFS!
"Security forces can't be everywhere, can they? You just have to look at how often burglaries are even investigated in the UK. "
Less gun crime to deal with, then the security forces can actually attend your burglary.
And regarding the above post. I've no particular desire to model where I live on Japan or Singapore, but neither do I want the proliferation of guns to make my home look like the old wild west. I don't know why you'd make that comment??
More guns = Less safe.
Gbat |
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By (user no longer on site) 32 weeks ago
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Oh sweet jesus you actually used Wikipedia as a source! Like honestly! Any town is USA that requires every household by law to own a firearm has the lowest crime rates in the US all crime not just gun crime, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Finland lots and lots of countries have very high gun ownerships, every farmer has multiple guns! It's people and mindsets not guns! |
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"You are confusing countries with lots of land not being populated with people just being spread across like American suburbs?
No, I'm not. You mentioned the US has a spread out population and I've shown you other countries with a spread out population that don't have the same issues with self defence.
"
Most part of Australia for example is uninhabited. That's not spreading out the population.
"
Ireland has a land border with Northern Ireland.
Scotland has a land border with England.
"
It isn't that hard to realise that the countries they share the borders also have gun restrictions.
"
Less gun crime to deal with, then the security forces can actually attend your burglary.
"
You know that police in England do fuck all about burglaries these days right? Ever wondered why?
"
And regarding the above post. I've no particular desire to model where I live on Japan or Singapore, but neither do I want the proliferation of guns to make my home look like the old wild west. I don't know why you'd make that comment??
"
I am pointing out that any policy decision you make, comes at a cost. If we have even more authoritarianism, we could reduce our homicide rates further. Are you willing to sacrifice some liberty for safety? The Americans are happy to give up some safety for the sake of liberty. I personally don't prefer that. But I respect their choice and wouldn't judge them based on that. |
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By (user no longer on site) 32 weeks ago
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"Thankfully guns will never be legal in this country, no matter how much the crazies think it’s a good idea. "
Guns are perfectly legal in the UK and Ireland! What are you on about! Every single country has gun ownership |
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By *batMan 32 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Oh sweet jesus you actually used Wikipedia as a source! Like honestly! Any town is USA that requires every household by law to own a firearm has the lowest crime rates in the US all crime not just gun crime, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Finland lots and lots of countries have very high gun ownerships, every farmer has multiple guns! It's people and mindsets not guns! "
I used the United Nations office on Drugs and Crime.
I'd be keen to see your data on US crime stats though. That sounds interesting.
I'm not against gun ownership, I'm against stupid gun ownership. If you need a rifle to hunt, great. You probably won't be using an automatic rifle though, not even for geese.
Gbat
Gbat |
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I know a few Americans, whom are very responsible gun owners. And whilst I don't agree with everything they say, a lot of their points are rational and not addressed by those against gun ownership.
America has a lot of guns, I mean a lot. Making them illegal will not make them disappear. People who are criminals, probably already own guns illegally and they will not care if guns become universally illegal.
The argument that making guns illegal therefore there will be less guns is contentious. Perhaps in volume, but not in terms of the proportion of responsible gun owners. Dangerous people will still have guns and access to them. Law abiding people won't.
The anti-defence argument is a poor one. The police are not going to attend quickly enough to intervene in a burglary or assault.
And this is what it comes down to for me. Do we have a right to defend ourselves if our lives are threatened? I think we do and the law is not useful after the fact, if I or my children are dead. |
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By *batMan 32 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"So your entire defence is based on 1 country v the rest of the world, seriously "
I'm guessing that's directed at me? It's much easier to follow if you use the reply and quote button.
I'm not "defending" anything!
This thread is about gun control in the US. If you want to broaden it to other countries, be my guest. Perhaps it would be polite to start your own thread though?
It's hard to tell with the written word, but are you angry with my comments for some reason? I don't think I'm holding any unusual views. A lot of people would agree with what I'm saying, a lot won't.
Gbat |
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By *hilloutMan 32 weeks ago
All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest |
"I know a few Americans, whom are very responsible gun owners. And whilst I don't agree with everything they say, a lot of their points are rational and not addressed by those against gun ownership.
America has a lot of guns, I mean a lot. Making them illegal will not make them disappear. People who are criminals, probably already own guns illegally and they will not care if guns become universally illegal.
The argument that making guns illegal therefore there will be less guns is contentious. Perhaps in volume, but not in terms of the proportion of responsible gun owners. Dangerous people will still have guns and access to them. Law abiding people won't.
The anti-defence argument is a poor one. The police are not going to attend quickly enough to intervene in a burglary or assault.
And this is what it comes down to for me. Do we have a right to defend ourselves if our lives are threatened? I think we do and the law is not useful after the fact, if I or my children are dead."
Very well put |
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"I know a few Americans, whom are very responsible gun owners. And whilst I don't agree with everything they say, a lot of their points are rational and not addressed by those against gun ownership.
America has a lot of guns, I mean a lot. Making them illegal will not make them disappear. People who are criminals, probably already own guns illegally and they will not care if guns become universally illegal.
The argument that making guns illegal therefore there will be less guns is contentious. Perhaps in volume, but not in terms of the proportion of responsible gun owners. Dangerous people will still have guns and access to them. Law abiding people won't.
The anti-defence argument is a poor one. The police are not going to attend quickly enough to intervene in a burglary or assault.
And this is what it comes down to for me. Do we have a right to defend ourselves if our lives are threatened? I think we do and the law is not useful after the fact, if I or my children are dead."
THIS! This is exactly the point I was trying to make further up the thread.
If we wish for guns to go, then we need to look at the societal problems that cause crime. I.e poverty. At this point I'd like to think people understand we no longer have a gold backed currency anywhere in the globe and it's all done on fractional reserve (basically made up numbers and print at will based on the population of said country and the average an individual will earn in a life time)
Money and it's value is quite literally made up and a use for keeping people squabbling over crumbs. |
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"Thankfully guns will never be legal in this country, no matter how much the crazies think it’s a good idea. "
I own 13 legally registered firearms. So fairly sure they sre legal, there is no firearm that cannot be owned with the correct certification. |
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This is true because there are many countries in the world where gun ownership (often of high power assault type weapons) is incredibly high (like over 25% of the adult population) yet gun crime is low to negligible.
So it's not so much fire arms that are the problem it the culture of violence in places like America tjats the problem. However if there was any place in the world that desperately needed tight gun control I'd be America. Because the statistics indicate they're just not grown up enough as a society to have guns responsibly. |
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"Thankfully guns will never be legal in this country, no matter how much the crazies think it’s a good idea. "
They are legal though, you just have to jump through hoops to get them.
I would love to own a few large caliber rifles, but I can't the cost needed to own one and keep it safe. Tjhen you have to find somewhere, that will let you shoot a .50 rifle. |
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"With the latest happening in america, trump was very luck this time, is it time for a tigher gun law? There is a gun for every person there, you can argue that a sane person dont reach for a gun, what is your view? "
Its a Americans right to kill does that make them insane ? |
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"It’s no here who cares , end a the day it’s in there constitution and culture , don’t know why folk get so heat up over it "
Mostly Euro-liberals and intelligentsia cares , especially ex-pats they seem to be more obsessed about American politics and laws than UK ones.
America is a dangerous place.
Imagine telling British people they’re going to outlaw using physical force to defend yourself against physical force. So if you are attacked in in the street by a gang or in your own home by intruders you’re not allowed to fight back.
This is what gun-control sounds like to the the average American |
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By *ee69Man 21 weeks ago
glasgow |
"It’s no here who cares , end a the day it’s in there constitution and culture , don’t know why folk get so heat up over it
Mostly Euro-liberals and intelligentsia cares , especially ex-pats they seem to be more obsessed about American politics and laws than UK ones.
America is a dangerous place.
Imagine telling British people they’re going to outlaw using physical force to defend yourself against physical force. So if you are attacked in in the street by a gang or in your own home by intruders you’re not allowed to fight back.
This is what gun-control sounds like to the the average American"
lol didn’t need the lesson my uncle lives in states and we love shooting a just love to upset all the do gooders on here |
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"It’s no here who cares , end a the day it’s in there constitution and culture , don’t know why folk get so heat up over it
Mostly Euro-liberals and intelligentsia cares , especially ex-pats they seem to be more obsessed about American politics and laws than UK ones.
America is a dangerous place.
Imagine telling British people they’re going to outlaw using physical force to defend yourself against physical force. So if you are attacked in in the street by a gang or in your own home by intruders you’re not allowed to fight back.
This is what gun-control sounds like to the the average American"
We have pretty good laws around self defence, reasonable force is the key phrase around our reaction to being attacked.
In very broad terms and there are shades of grey depending on the circumstances........
Man pushes you, you can push back. Reasonable force.
Man pushes you, you break his neck. Unreasonable.
Man punches you, you can punch back.
Man kicks you, you can kick him back.
Man pulls a knife or gun, you're screwed. As a law abiding individual you don't carry a knife of gun.
I read a UK v USA hot burglary (where the resident is at home) comparison report a while ago.
In the States hot burglary numbers going down. In the UK numbers going up.
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It's a bit like saying "Hammers dont build beautiful handmade solid oak cabinets - carpenters do". Technically correct, but they'll find it a hell of a lot easier to drive nails into the wood with a hammer in their hand.
Nobody's taking down an entire school in unarmed hand-to-hand combat, are they? |
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"It’s no here who cares , end a the day it’s in there constitution and culture , don’t know why folk get so heat up over it
Mostly Euro-liberals and intelligentsia cares , especially ex-pats they seem to be more obsessed about American politics and laws than UK ones.
America is a dangerous place.
Imagine telling British people they’re going to outlaw using physical force to defend yourself against physical force. So if you are attacked in in the street by a gang or in your own home by intruders you’re not allowed to fight back.
This is what gun-control sounds like to the the average American
We have pretty good laws around self defence, reasonable force is the key phrase around our reaction to being attacked.
In very broad terms and there are shades of grey depending on the circumstances........
Man pushes you, you can push back. Reasonable force.
Man pushes you, you break his neck. Unreasonable.
Man punches you, you can punch back.
Man kicks you, you can kick him back.
Man pulls a knife or gun, you're screwed. As a law abiding individual you don't carry a knife of gun.
I read a UK v USA hot burglary (where the resident is at home) comparison report a while ago.
In the States hot burglary numbers going down. In the UK numbers going up.
"
. ...all crime in the US is down |
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"Thankfully guns will never be legal in this country, no matter how much the crazies think it’s a good idea.
They are legal though, you just have to jump through hoops to get them.
I would love to own a few large caliber rifles, but I can't the cost needed to own one and keep it safe. Tjhen you have to find somewhere, that will let you shoot a .50 rifle."
Cost of .50 bmg isn't just a UK thing, talking £10 a trigger pull anywhere in the world, |
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"
I own 13 legally registered firearms.
I am curious why you need so many"
Different firearms for different applications, I'm not shooting rabbits with a .308 and I'm not shooting deer with a .22lr,fox is a different caliber again, then I have dedicated target rifles ,shotguns you cab own as many as you like as long as you keep them secure,but again different shotguns for different applications. |
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In an ideal world there would be no guns
But there are
So I personally don't like the idea of someone else being able to have a weapon that I'm not allowed to have
If I was American I'd be 2nd amendment all the way |
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"In an ideal world there would be no guns
But there are
So I personally don't like the idea of someone else being able to have a weapon that I'm not allowed to have
In an ideal world ammunition would be cheaper,
If I was American I'd be 2nd amendment all the way "
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By (user no longer on site) 16 weeks ago
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I'm actually a bit of a gun fan.
I love vintage guns designed for women. Tiffany's did some stunning ones back in their day. I also appreciate a good ol western revolver. I know its not PC but I likes what I likes. |
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Let’s be honest …. USA is one seriously screwed up country! The law is political and is dependent upon wealth - as is everything in American society.
USA is ‘wedded’ to its love of guns and its laws will never be eradicated … no matter who is in power. Therefore they reap what they sow, and will always have mass killings etc.
I do find it kinda funny that gun law is enshrined in ‘the 2nd amendment’ …. Isn’t the definition of an amendment ‘a change’ … but you can’t amend an amendment!! .. lol. I also recall USA once had a ban on alcohol during the prohibition … it’s amazing what you can change when you want to!!
Oh by the way, I’m both an FAC and SGC holder, so in no way completely opposed to firearms ownership.
R x |
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"Let’s be honest …. USA is one seriously screwed up country! The law is political and is dependent upon wealth - as is everything in American society.
USA is ‘wedded’ to its love of guns and its laws will never be eradicated … no matter who is in power. Therefore they reap what they sow, and will always have mass killings etc.
I do find it kinda funny that gun law is enshrined in ‘the 2nd amendment’ …. Isn’t the definition of an amendment ‘a change’ … but you can’t amend an amendment!! .. lol. I also recall USA once had a ban on alcohol during the prohibition … it’s amazing what you can change when you want to!!
Oh by the way, I’m both an FAC and SGC holder, so in no way completely opposed to firearms ownership.
R x"
They can repeal 2a but it will take either two thirds or three quarters (can't remember off top of my head) to agree to it, probably a bit late for it to make any real difference at the moment anyway.
Things like proper implementation of CAP laws are the best place to start |
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By (user no longer on site) 15 weeks ago
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Goldy looking chain
Great song
Ask any politician they will tell you it’s true
Its a fact the music makes you violent
Like Michael Jackson telling little Timmy to be quiet
Great lyrics
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I love that song and video lol xx