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Should a teacher defend themselves in a fight?
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By *hagTonight OP Man 22 weeks ago
From the land of haribos. |
I was hearing about a case where a teacher defended himself as he got attacked by a pupil and later he got fired.
It started as the teacher intervened in a fight between 2 other students to try and resolve it, the pupil who was starting the fight with the other pupil attacked the teacher as he tried to take the pupil away from the other one, the teacher tried to defend himself, the pupil got sentenced with threats against official and the court decided that what the teacher did was right and nothing wrong, but, the strange thing here is that he still got fired from his job.
The teacher got interviewed and he said that "This sends signals to the pupils and to the coworkers, that, here in this school it is ok for a pupil to threaten and attack a teacher".
What is your view about it and do you also think that the school are in the wrong, also are you a teacher, would you dare to intervene in a fight, if not, what would you do in this situation?
I totally agree with what the teacher said how this sends the wrong kind of signals to the pupils and the court was right too, that he did nothing wrong  |
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By (user no longer on site) 22 weeks ago
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The problem is a natural reaction. I know my reactions have happened in the past when I’ve hit back quickly, and then afterwards wish I hadn’t as I don’t think I needed to. But a natural reaction is that just that it’s not planned it’s human nature. Fight or flight.
So if a guy is getting attacked and he feels threatened he’s going to do one of two things on this occasion, the little shit back.
With the school, firing him, I don’t know, it’s like keeping a footballer on your team that’s been through court and even though he’s been cleared there’s going to be like attention on your football team like never before. So you might as well just get rid of him and that solves the problem. Do I agree with it? I’m just glad it’s not me that has to make a decision.  |
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It's sad what's happening in schools these days and society at large. Obviously don't know anything about the case but being a teacher these days is one of the toughest jobs to do, under appreciated, under valued and not something I would want to do, I know that much |
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Where is the source for this Shag? I know of one case where a teacher tried to break up a fight and pushed one of the 'lads' by the shoulders.
I was glad he was dismissed. He made himself the third person in the fight.
There are ways to intervene.
I'd like to read the article first hand. Where is it please? |
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They may need to add restraint training in the teacher training days so the teachers have a chance of defending themselves.
You shouldn’t get sacked for defending yourself but it can be a very grey area. |
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By *1bttmMan 22 weeks ago
Shoreditch east London |
"Where is the source for this Shag? I know of one case where a teacher tried to break up a fight and pushed one of the 'lads' by the shoulders.
I was glad he was dismissed. He made himself the third person in the fight
There are ways to intervene.
I'd like to read the article first hand. Where is it please? "
Not sure if he read as he says he heard about this case. But source would def be interesting as I have friends in profession |
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By *hagTonight OP Man 22 weeks ago
From the land of haribos. |
"Where is the source for this Shag? I know of one case where a teacher tried to break up a fight and pushed one of the 'lads' by the shoulders.
I was glad he was dismissed. He made himself the third person in the fight.
There are ways to intervene.
I'd like to read the article first hand. Where is it please? "
There isnt an article, it was shown on the swedish news, but yes, there are ways to intervene too. |
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Yes I believe anyone in any circumstance has a right to use reasonable force to defend themselves from assault. If the court says they did, then it should not be to their detriment.
A teacher ought to be able to physically intervene when the risk of intervention is less than that of not. In fact one could argue that preventing a child from physical harm is a duty of care. As is the schools responsibility to provide a safe working environment for staff and pupils. That latter part also needs investigating.
I've done restraint training. I don't think many teachers have and schools simply bury their head in the sand - then incidents like this occur. But the thing is that restraint training is far more effective and safer with two or more people. If someone gets ejected by security staff in a venue you see that approach. A teacher is often isolated, with classes were there ought to be assistants, because pupils have identified additional needs and the school just fails to deliver. That makes classroom management much more difficult.
In SEMH schools there will be classes of pupils with behavioural issues - several probably previously excluded from mainstream. Yet because it is well provisioned, staff are well trained to meet their needs and class sizes are smaller; with better staff-pupil ratios, the outcomes are often much better than mainstream schools. |
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"Where is the source for this Shag? I know of one case where a teacher tried to break up a fight and pushed one of the 'lads' by the shoulders.
I was glad he was dismissed. He made himself the third person in the fight.
There are ways to intervene.
I'd like to read the article first hand. Where is it please? There isnt an article, it was shown on the swedish news, but yes, there are ways to intervene too."
thanks Shag - I'll try to look it up |
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"Everyone has the right to defend themselves when being attacked x "
This..
Plus teachers being in a position where they have a duty of care are onto a hiding if they stand by as one kid seriously injures another or worse..
Not sure we can judge till we've been in their shoes.. |
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"My mums a teacher and she said some of the kids can get very aggressive to a point you almost feel threatened and nowadays you don’t don’t if they’re carrying knifes or anything "
Reason my friends mother quit the teaching profession. She just did not feel safe. |
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By *hillenCouple 22 weeks ago
Borehamwood |
Interesting that the teacher was a male. Had it been a petite female, possibly not young, would they have been sacked?
In any event I'd have thought that a teacher was obliged to try and break up a fight as one or both participants could get injured.
I seem to recall someone telling me that psychiatric nurses have training in restraint techniques without hitting. Does anyone know if this is true? |
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I seem to recall someone telling me that psychiatric nurses have training in restraint techniques without hitting. Does anyone know if this is true?"
They do,think it's called constraint and something..
Supposed to de-escalate a violent persons actions.. |
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Over 40 years ago, the film Class of 1984 was ridiculed for depicting schools where metal-detectors and frisking were the norm, as weapons were commonplace.
Teachers were the subject of false accusations, leading to suspension and/or dismissal. Teachers were assaulted, where attempts to defend themselves saw the authorities automatically side with the students, on the grounds that it was an adult against a juvenile.
It took a while, but it's becoming depressingly familiar. |
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By *hagTonight OP Man 22 weeks ago
From the land of haribos. |
"It's sad what's happening in schools these days and society at large. Obviously don't know anything about the case but being a teacher these days is one of the toughest jobs to do, under appreciated, under valued and not something I would want to do, I know that much "
Yes, it is sad, it must be difficult to be a teacher these days too. |
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Yes they should, teachers have lost all powers of authority and the kids know it. So they take the piss knowing there’s no consequence.
In my school days, wouldn’t dare start on a teacher, they would have just straight knocked me out and explained how that was my fault. I also used to get a chalkboard eraser thrown at me quite a lot.
The mr |
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unfortunately he was the adult in the situation and NVR - Non violent resistance is what is required. He should have found a better way to deal with the situation. Dont have full details, but working with young people its about not reacting - Its not an easy situation to be in |
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"Yes they should, teachers have lost all powers of authority and the kids know it. So they take the piss knowing there’s no consequence.
In my school days, wouldn’t dare start on a teacher, they would have just straight knocked me out and explained how that was my fault. I also used to get a chalkboard eraser thrown at me quite a lot.
The mr "
Me too! Great big heavy wooden thing.
And I can remember being punched on the arm so hard I bruised. I was dyslexic and there was no support for that in them days...
As for fighting back, some kids are huge, as big as adults! I don't want to comment on the rights or wrongs but the teacher should be able to defend himself using reasonable force surely. What if the kid had weapons, or taken substances |
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I have worked as a teacher in a secondary academy in Lambeth in central London. I remember the safeguarding training where the issue of touching was discussed.
For a while the school of thought used to be that you never touch a child. But then what if a kid is about to jump over a balcony? Or like here where a child is in danger of harm from another individual. So the rules were changed.
But the stigma hasn’t, especially if it’s a male teacher. I was fortunate in that I was never in the situation where I had to make a decision like this. But the school I worked in had a strict dress code regarding skirt length girls. To try and get around it, some of the girls would pull the waistband up high to raise the hem. Standing instructions were to instruct the girls who did this to correct their attire. So on day 3 I did exactly that, and the response from a year 11 (so 15/16yo) girl was “sir, you shouldn’t be looking at my legs, I find your behaviour inappropriate”. Suffice to say I didn’t bother attempting to correct such a breach of rules after that.
Teachers are in a very tough situation and are very often not supported by managers when things go wrong. The signal sent here is if you’re a teacher and you see a fight, make yourself scarce |
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"I was hearing about a case where a teacher defended himself as he got attacked by a pupil and later he got fired.
It started as the teacher intervened in a fight between 2 other students to try and resolve it, the pupil who was starting the fight with the other pupil attacked the teacher as he tried to take the pupil away from the other one, the teacher tried to defend himself, the pupil got sentenced with threats against official and the court decided that what the teacher did was right and nothing wrong, but, the strange thing here is that he still got fired from his job.
The teacher got interviewed and he said that "This sends signals to the pupils and to the coworkers, that, here in this school it is ok for a pupil to threaten and attack a teacher".
What is your view about it and do you also think that the school are in the wrong, also are you a teacher, would you dare to intervene in a fight, if not, what would you do in this situation?
I totally agree with what the teacher said how this sends the wrong kind of signals to the pupils and the court was right too, that he did nothing wrong "
100 % I have 2 kids and respect the teachers who don't get paid what they should to do best by our future generation |
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Teachers are in a very tough situation and are very often not supported by managers when things go wrong. The signal sent here is if you’re a teacher and you see a fight, make yourself scarce "
That's an account I've heard on many occasions. And for what it's worth I agree with you. What would you say the solutions are? |
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"
Teachers are in a very tough situation and are very often not supported by managers when things go wrong. The signal sent here is if you’re a teacher and you see a fight, make yourself scarce
That's an account I've heard on many occasions. And for what it's worth I agree with you. What would you say the solutions are?"
Body cam is a good eye witness that never lies. |
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"
Teachers are in a very tough situation and are very often not supported by managers when things go wrong. The signal sent here is if you’re a teacher and you see a fight, make yourself scarce
That's an account I've heard on many occasions. And for what it's worth I agree with you. What would you say the solutions are?
Body cam is a good eye witness that never lies. "
There's a time I would have opposed that, but I think I agree with you now. |
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By (user no longer on site) 22 weeks ago
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Depends what you mean by defend. To protect himself and restrain move away from that student then yes. Yo go toe to toe with the student who is minor and legally in their care no.
Has to be appropriate and not intended to inflict damage on the student.
That's my thoughts... |
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"Depends what you mean by defend. To protect himself and restrain move away from that student then yes. Yo go toe to toe with the student who is minor and legally in their care no.
Has to be appropriate and not intended to inflict damage on the student.
That's my thoughts..."
Easy to say when it's not you facing the aggression. My thoughts are the same for a teacher, police officer, MP, member of the public, you use the force you feem necessary to stop it. |
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Everyone has a defence in law of self defence. This is normally quoted as arising from common law but is also statutory.
The common law of self-defence applies where the defendant uses necessary, reasonable and proportionate force to defend themselves or another from imminent attack.
It applies to all individuals but also applies to professionals, carers, police, prison staff, teachers etc to prevent harm happening to those in their care who chose to harm themselves.
So take the situation where someone is trying to jump from a window and the fall from this window would cause them significant harm.
A professional has a duty of care to prevent this and would have a defence against any harm caused to the person, in preventing them leaping from the window, so long as such injury was reasonable and proportionate to prevent greater injury. A professional would be in breach of their duty if they did not attempt to prevent such harm occurring. They couldn't 'hide' behind the fact that they chose not to act to ensure they would not be charge with causing injury themselves.
Without knowing the full facts it's difficult to say what's gone on. However if they were acquitted in a court then it's harsh for them to be disciplined by their employer.
Mrs x |
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By *hagTonight OP Man 22 weeks ago
From the land of haribos. |
"Yes they should, teachers have lost all powers of authority and the kids know it. So they take the piss knowing there’s no consequence.
In my school days, wouldn’t dare start on a teacher, they would have just straight knocked me out and explained how that was my fault. I also used to get a chalkboard eraser thrown at me quite a lot.
The mr "
Yes, you are right there, they have lost all the powers of authority and back then the pupils had more respect for the teachers too |
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"Yes they should, teachers have lost all powers of authority and the kids know it. So they take the piss knowing there’s no consequence.
In my school days, wouldn’t dare start on a teacher, they would have just straight knocked me out and explained how that was my fault. I also used to get a chalkboard eraser thrown at me quite a lot.
The mr Yes, you are right there, they have lost all the powers of authority and back then the pupils had more respect for the teachers too "
I have to disagree on that one, fear isn't respect.
That approach doesn't work on kids who aren't afraid to take a beating. The best teacher I ever met said don't expect their respect earn it - they haven't chosen to be here - you have.
I've been pinned against a wall by my throat, by a teacher with that break em mentality. And watched his resolve drop out of his eyes when he realised it didn't work and that's all he had - no argument beyond I'm bigger than you - just a bully. He said nothing when I asked if he was done.
The ones who showed respect got it back with me. Teach, don't sit there reading the paper then get pissed off the class is bored and misbehaving - throwing dusters at people. Come and ask me why I haven't done my work - do your job then maybe I could hear myself think over all this noise.
Yeah yeah don't answer back get outside. Why what are you gonna do that you don't want a witness to? I wish they did have body cameras back then thinking about it. |
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restain and pacify with in reason yes, but never strike. a fully grown adult has the potential to be so much stronger. With a little know how it is easy enough to restain and I dare say being made to look foolish is often enough to stop many from going further. |
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By *hagTonight OP Man 21 weeks ago
From the land of haribos. |
"Where is the source for this Shag? I know of one case where a teacher tried to break up a fight and pushed one of the 'lads' by the shoulders.
I was glad he was dismissed. He made himself the third person in the fight.
There are ways to intervene.
I'd like to read the article first hand. Where is it please? There isnt an article, it was shown on the swedish news, but yes, there are ways to intervene too.
thanks Shag - I'll try to look it up"
Hi, yw, that is good. I will also see if I can find it |
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it’s self defence and legal 