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Nelson Mandella
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By *umourCouple
over a year ago
Rushden |
I wish him well as I would wish anyone well who is suffering! As much as his life was shaped by circumstance, I cannot think of treating him any differently to any other elderly person. I think that ALL people suffering should have the same support from us and not just those who have been in the news... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I wish him well as I would wish anyone well who is suffering! As much as his life was shaped by circumstance, I cannot think of treating him any differently to any other elderly person. I think that ALL people suffering should have the same support from us and not just those who have been in the news..."
Well of course they should, I don't think the OP was suggesting anything else  |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
Nobody who saw Mandela dance in George Sq Glasgow all those years ago will ever forget the experience.
We even changed the address of the South African Consulate to Nelson Mandela Place.
He's an old man now, and very frail. Whilst I'd love to see him live for a long time, it's maybe time he took his well earned rest.
Amandla. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I wish him well as I would wish anyone well who is suffering! As much as his life was shaped by circumstance, I cannot think of treating him any differently to any other elderly person. I think that ALL people suffering should have the same support from us and not just those who have been in the news..."
Yep lets give charles manson same support as nelson mandela. There are those who deserve more then others in my opinion |
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By *umourCouple
over a year ago
Rushden |
"I wish him well as I would wish anyone well who is suffering! As much as his life was shaped by circumstance, I cannot think of treating him any differently to any other elderly person. I think that ALL people suffering should have the same support from us and not just those who have been in the news...
Yep lets give charles manson same support as nelson mandela. There are those who deserve more then others in my opinion "
That is a bit of a stretch, even for FAB! Still, I suppose that if you are short of a good point to make, try assassination  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'd say the years of his life lost in prison entitle him to a little more than being treated as the average person - he's a long, long way from average. |
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We should not lose sight of the fact that Mandela was also the co-founder of the Spear of the Nation organisation, this group killed and maimed many innocent people in both South Africa and the former Rhodesia....So not a hero to everyone, but I wish him a peaceful time in the twilight years of his life and hope he is not suffering. |
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By *umourCouple
over a year ago
Rushden |
"We should not lose sight of the fact that Mandela was also the co-founder of the Spear of the Nation organisation, this group killed and maimed many innocent people in both South Africa and the former Rhodesia....So not a hero to everyone, but I wish him a peaceful time in the twilight years of his life and hope he is not suffering."
The point I was trying to make, without bursting their bubbles! |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"By the same measure lets not lose sight of the people being killed right now and for long before in the names of the UK Government
"
You'll never get everyone to agree who are justified targets.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"By the same measure lets not lose sight of the people being killed right now and for long before in the names of the UK Government
You'll never get everyone to agree who are justified targets.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
Indeed and I know South Africans who considered Mandela a terrorist. They were also brought up to believe black people have no soul. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I wish him well as I would wish anyone well who is suffering! As much as his life was shaped by circumstance, I cannot think of treating him any differently to any other elderly person. I think that ALL people suffering should have the same support from us and not just those who have been in the news...
Yep lets give charles manson same support as nelson mandela. There are those who deserve more then others in my opinion "
Dont forget Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams ! |
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"By the same measure lets not lose sight of the people being killed right now and for long before in the names of the UK Government
You'll never get everyone to agree who are justified targets.
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter."
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Good to see that Oscar Pistorious is ready to take over from him.
I mean, go to prison for 25yrs, come out and be made president.....that's how it works in South Africa isn't it??? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We should not lose sight of the fact that Mandela was also the co-founder of the Spear of the Nation organisation, this group killed and maimed many innocent people in both South Africa and the former Rhodesia....So not a hero to everyone, but I wish him a peaceful time in the twilight years of his life and hope he is not suffering."
Well said.
Apartheid was an abhorrent regime, but I could never condone violent protest. He is no Gandhi or Martin Luther, and because of his actions will never be a hero to me. Staying in prison for so long was his sentence for his actions , not a passport to sainthood.
Lets also not forget the nepotism he showed when President, by giving family key posts in his new government. He had an opportunity to push SA forward, but the violence and slums exist still.
I would never wish ill on an old person and hope he is in no pain. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Mandela turned to sabotage at the point he felt non violent protest was having no impact and it was for sabotage that he was jailed.
Regardless of what moral nitpicking can be done from afar, the impact on South Africa - and much, much wider - has been incredible, and in a very short space of time. Not many can genuinely be called a living legend, but he undeniably is. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Mandela turned to sabotage at the point he felt non violent protest was having no impact and it was for sabotage that he was jailed.
Regardless of what moral nitpicking can be done from afar, the impact on South Africa - and much, much wider - has been incredible, and in a very short space of time. Not many can genuinely be called a living legend, but he undeniably is."
Sabotage ?? .
I have a friend who served in the South African army who has told me a few shockers about Mr Mandela .
Each time I try to check these facts I hit a wall .
So I will reserve my judgment . |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So do I - unfortunately he's also an openly racist twat."
If you are referring to your friend that that us not true here.
This chap has alluded to wedding rapes and worse that he witnessed perpetrated by rival tribes etc that he was powerless to stop .
He has to take medication to sleep at night because of what he witnessed .
When people are accorded god like status their past is airbrushed away and it is very hard to find out what really happened .
His ex was not very nice , remember the burning neckless ?. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So do I - unfortunately he's also an openly racist twat.
If you are referring to your friend that that us not true here.
This chap has alluded to wedding rapes and worse that he witnessed perpetrated by rival tribes etc that he was powerless to stop .
He has to take medication to sleep at night because of what he witnessed .
When people are accorded god like status their past is airbrushed away and it is very hard to find out what really happened .
His ex was not very nice , remember the burning neckless ?."
That was terribly written , but you get the point ?. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I wish him well as I would wish anyone well who is suffering! As much as his life was shaped by circumstance, I cannot think of treating him any differently to any other elderly person. I think that ALL people suffering should have the same support from us and not just those who have been in the news...
Yep lets give charles manson same support as nelson mandela. There are those who deserve more then others in my opinion
That is a bit of a stretch, even for FAB! Still, I suppose that if you are short of a good point to make, try assassination "
Assassination? Isn't that the very thing Mandela spent 26 years in prison for?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc etc... and let's not forget Winnie Mandela and her involvement in the disappearance of 'stumpy', and her outright corruption using her famous husband's name to get what she wanted. Why didn't Nelson put a stop to that? He has dark secrets he'll take to his grave with him, but he's an old man now and I don't wish him ill. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So do I - unfortunately he's also an openly racist twat.
If you are referring to your friend that that us not true here.
This chap has alluded to wedding rapes and worse that he witnessed perpetrated by rival tribes etc that he was powerless to stop .
He has to take medication to sleep at night because of what he witnessed .
When people are accorded god like status their past is airbrushed away and it is very hard to find out what really happened .
His ex was not very nice , remember the burning neckless ?."
How would I possibly know if your friend is the same friend that I refer to?!
*my* 'friend' - is the same I referred to previously who was brought up to believe black people have no souls and are not human.
If I follow your argument it is that he must be a bad man because his wife and people around him did bad things during a time of unthinkable instability, and he has trouble sleeping at night?!
What 'really happened' can be seen right now - South Africa. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"We should not lose sight of the fact that Mandela was also the co-founder of the Spear of the Nation organisation, this group killed and maimed many innocent people in both South Africa and the former Rhodesia....So not a hero to everyone, but I wish him a peaceful time in the twilight years of his life and hope he is not suffering."
It's rare that you and I agree but on this we do. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Assassination? Isn't that the very thing Mandela spent 26 years in prison for?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc etc... and let's not forget Winnie Mandela and her involvement in the disappearance of 'stumpy', and her outright corruption using her famous husband's name to get what she wanted. Why didn't Nelson put a stop to that? He has dark secrets he'll take to his grave with him, but he's an old man now and I don't wish him ill. "
He assassinated who? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Assassination? Isn't that the very thing Mandela spent 26 years in prison for?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc etc... and let's not forget Winnie Mandela and her involvement in the disappearance of 'stumpy', and her outright corruption using her famous husband's name to get what she wanted. Why didn't Nelson put a stop to that? He has dark secrets he'll take to his grave with him, but he's an old man now and I don't wish him ill.
He assassinated who?"
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
He was also convicted of sanctioning the Church St bombing in which many men women and children, all white, were killed and maimed. He has since admitted his part and said this bombing was his signing off act to terrorism. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Assassination? Isn't that the very thing Mandela spent 26 years in prison for?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc etc... and let's not forget Winnie Mandela and her involvement in the disappearance of 'stumpy', and her outright corruption using her famous husband's name to get what she wanted. Why didn't Nelson put a stop to that? He has dark secrets he'll take to his grave with him, but he's an old man now and I don't wish him ill.
He assassinated who?
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
He was also convicted of sanctioning the Church St bombing in which many men women and children, all white, were killed and maimed. He has since admitted his part and said this bombing was his signing off act to terrorism."
Maybe my mate is not the only one to have trouble sleeping at night .
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I do not deny that I planned sabotage. I did not plan it in a spirit of recklessness nor because I have any love of violence. I planned it as a result of a calm and sober assessment of the political situation that had arisen after many years of tyranny, exploitation and oppression of my people by the whites." Mandela - Nobel Peace Prize winner
"People who organise revolution usually plan to take over the government as well through personal ambition." Judge de Wet - puppet of a racist government
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Nelson Mandela is proof that terrorism works."
On that basis so is Gerry Adams as there are no operational British troops in N.I. anymore, just 1,500 troops remain on garrison duty - living and training as they would in any other part of the UK. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Nobody who saw Mandela dance in George Sq Glasgow all those years ago will ever forget the experience.
We even changed the address of the South African Consulate to Nelson Mandela Place.
He's an old man now, and very frail. Whilst I'd love to see him live for a long time, it's maybe time he took his well earned rest.
Amandla."
Never forget del boy trotter lived at nelson mandela house  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Assassination? Isn't that the very thing Mandela spent 26 years in prison for?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc etc... and let's not forget Winnie Mandela and her involvement in the disappearance of 'stumpy', and her outright corruption using her famous husband's name to get what she wanted. Why didn't Nelson put a stop to that? He has dark secrets he'll take to his grave with him, but he's an old man now and I don't wish him ill.
He assassinated who?
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
He was also convicted of sanctioning the Church St bombing in which many men women and children, all white, were killed and maimed. He has since admitted his part and said this bombing was his signing off act to terrorism.
Maybe my mate is not the only one to have trouble sleeping at night .
"
You should be careful of hurling insults about. I'm giving you facts about the man but you prefer to see something completely different.
Martin Luther King didn't incite anyone to murder and achieved so much more than Mandela, as did Gandhi. Mandela is no hero. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Assassination? Isn't that the very thing Mandela spent 26 years in prison for?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc etc... and let's not forget Winnie Mandela and her involvement in the disappearance of 'stumpy', and her outright corruption using her famous husband's name to get what she wanted. Why didn't Nelson put a stop to that? He has dark secrets he'll take to his grave with him, but he's an old man now and I don't wish him ill.
He assassinated who?
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
He was also convicted of sanctioning the Church St bombing in which many men women and children, all white, were killed and maimed. He has since admitted his part and said this bombing was his signing off act to terrorism."
Why is there a need to include the distinction 'women and children' here? Aren't we all supposed to be the same. Surely, killing people of any age and gender is enough. |
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"Nelson Mandela is proof that terrorism works.
On that basis so is Gerry Adams as there are no operational British troops in N.I. anymore, just 1,500 troops remain on garrison duty - living and training as they would in any other part of the UK."
As is his sidekick McGuinnes |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Assassination? Isn't that the very thing Mandela spent 26 years in prison for?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc etc... and let's not forget Winnie Mandela and her involvement in the disappearance of 'stumpy', and her outright corruption using her famous husband's name to get what she wanted. Why didn't Nelson put a stop to that? He has dark secrets he'll take to his grave with him, but he's an old man now and I don't wish him ill.
He assassinated who?
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
He was also convicted of sanctioning the Church St bombing in which many men women and children, all white, were killed and maimed. He has since admitted his part and said this bombing was his signing off act to terrorism.
Maybe my mate is not the only one to have trouble sleeping at night .
You should be careful of hurling insults about. I'm giving you facts about the man but you prefer to see something completely different.
Martin Luther King didn't incite anyone to murder and achieved so much more than Mandela, as did Gandhi. Mandela is no hero."
Erm !. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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My personal belief is that South Africa needs Mandela to pass from this world so that South Africans can finally lay the ghost of apartheid to rest. His living presence is a permanent reminder of something many South Africans would like to put behind them. It was the same for Germans who have had to continually live in shame for the actions of their forebears but as there are virtually no 1940s Nazis alive anymore it is something that is a part of their history now and Germans are generally accepted across the world as people who had nothing to do with WW2 (except for a few old die-hards who won't let modern Germans forget). Once he has become part of South Africa's history South Africa can move forward. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Assassination? Isn't that the very thing Mandela spent 26 years in prison for?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc etc... and let's not forget Winnie Mandela and her involvement in the disappearance of 'stumpy', and her outright corruption using her famous husband's name to get what she wanted. Why didn't Nelson put a stop to that? He has dark secrets he'll take to his grave with him, but he's an old man now and I don't wish him ill.
He assassinated who?
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
He was also convicted of sanctioning the Church St bombing in which many men women and children, all white, were killed and maimed. He has since admitted his part and said this bombing was his signing off act to terrorism.
Why is there a need to include the distinction 'women and children' here? Aren't we all supposed to be the same. Surely, killing people of any age and gender is enough. "
Read it again, it says 'men women and children' and the distinction is that they were normal citizens going about their daily lives, not government targets. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I can't follow who's supposed to have insulted who - or quite what some of the arguments are supposed to suggest which is a shame as it's an interesting discussion.
Presumably those that deplore Mandela on the basis of his involvement in a movement that was fighting against violence, prejudice and oppression beyond anything we can really comprehend a would also condemn all of the killings done in the name of our own country under the guise of 'freedom'?
To me Mandela had far purer justification than our involvement in pretty much anything I can think of at the moment.
His wife is irrelevant - they were apart for longer than most marriages last.
What is relevant is his role in the transformation of a country that has a huge impact on the whole of Africa. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Assassination? Isn't that the very thing Mandela spent 26 years in prison for?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc etc... and let's not forget Winnie Mandela and her involvement in the disappearance of 'stumpy', and her outright corruption using her famous husband's name to get what she wanted. Why didn't Nelson put a stop to that? He has dark secrets he'll take to his grave with him, but he's an old man now and I don't wish him ill.
He assassinated who?
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
He was also convicted of sanctioning the Church St bombing in which many men women and children, all white, were killed and maimed. He has since admitted his part and said this bombing was his signing off act to terrorism.
Why is there a need to include the distinction 'women and children' here? Aren't we all supposed to be the same. Surely, killing people of any age and gender is enough.
Read it again, it says 'men women and children' and the distinction is that they were normal citizens going about their daily lives, not government targets."
Sorry Wishy, but you didn't include men. It's easily done, I skip words all the time when I'm typing. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Assassination? Isn't that the very thing Mandela spent 26 years in prison for?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc etc... and let's not forget Winnie Mandela and her involvement in the disappearance of 'stumpy', and her outright corruption using her famous husband's name to get what she wanted. Why didn't Nelson put a stop to that? He has dark secrets he'll take to his grave with him, but he's an old man now and I don't wish him ill.
He assassinated who?
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
He was also convicted of sanctioning the Church St bombing in which many men women and children, all white, were killed and maimed. He has since admitted his part and said this bombing was his signing off act to terrorism.
Why is there a need to include the distinction 'women and children' here? Aren't we all supposed to be the same. Surely, killing people of any age and gender is enough.
Read it again, it says 'men women and children' and the distinction is that they were normal citizens going about their daily lives, not government targets.
Sorry Wishy, but you didn't include men. It's easily done, I skip words all the time when I'm typing. "
Look in the first sentence of the next paragraph. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can't follow who's supposed to have insulted who - or quite what some of the arguments are supposed to suggest which is a shame as it's an interesting discussion.
Presumably those that deplore Mandela on the basis of his involvement in a movement that was fighting against violence, prejudice and oppression beyond anything we can really comprehend a would also condemn all of the killings done in the name of our own country under the guise of 'freedom'?
To me Mandela had far purer justification than our involvement in pretty much anything I can think of at the moment.
His wife is irrelevant - they were apart for longer than most marriages last.
What is relevant is his role in the transformation of a country that has a huge impact on the whole of Africa."
Which is descending into chaos !. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My personal belief is that South Africa needs Mandela to pass from this world so that South Africans can finally lay the ghost of apartheid to rest. His living presence is a permanent reminder of something many South Africans would like to put behind them. It was the same for Germans who have had to continually live in shame for the actions of their forebears but as there are virtually no 1940s Nazis alive anymore it is something that is a part of their history now and Germans are generally accepted across the world as people who had nothing to do with WW2 (except for a few old die-hards who won't let modern Germans forget). Once he has become part of South Africa's history South Africa can move forward."
I doubt there are many (outside of this forum!) that would regard Mandela as a legacy of shame to apartheid. More a symbol of the indigenous people being able to overthrow a racist regime created by white outsiders - outsiders he nonetheless forgave and worked with to unify a nation. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can't follow who's supposed to have insulted who - or quite what some of the arguments are supposed to suggest which is a shame as it's an interesting discussion.
Presumably those that deplore Mandela on the basis of his involvement in a movement that was fighting against violence, prejudice and oppression beyond anything we can really comprehend a would also condemn all of the killings done in the name of our own country under the guise of 'freedom'?
To me Mandela had far purer justification than our involvement in pretty much anything I can think of at the moment.
His wife is irrelevant - they were apart for longer than most marriages last.
What is relevant is his role in the transformation of a country that has a huge impact on the whole of Africa.
Which is descending into chaos !."
and that has what to do with him?
I was in Africa during the riots here - funnily enough at that time it looked similar from a different perspective. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Assassination? Isn't that the very thing Mandela spent 26 years in prison for?
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist etc etc... and let's not forget Winnie Mandela and her involvement in the disappearance of 'stumpy', and her outright corruption using her famous husband's name to get what she wanted. Why didn't Nelson put a stop to that? He has dark secrets he'll take to his grave with him, but he's an old man now and I don't wish him ill.
He assassinated who?
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
He was also convicted of sanctioning the Church St bombing in which many men women and children, all white, were killed and maimed. He has since admitted his part and said this bombing was his signing off act to terrorism.
Why is there a need to include the distinction 'women and children' here? Aren't we all supposed to be the same. Surely, killing people of any age and gender is enough.
Read it again, it says 'men women and children' and the distinction is that they were normal citizens going about their daily lives, not government targets.
Sorry Wishy, but you didn't include men. It's easily done, I skip words all the time when I'm typing.
Look in the first sentence of the next paragraph. "
Apologies. It just seemed odd to make the distinction the first time.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can't follow who's supposed to have insulted who - or quite what some of the arguments are supposed to suggest which is a shame as it's an interesting discussion.
Presumably those that deplore Mandela on the basis of his involvement in a movement that was fighting against violence, prejudice and oppression beyond anything we can really comprehend a would also condemn all of the killings done in the name of our own country under the guise of 'freedom'?
To me Mandela had far purer justification than our involvement in pretty much anything I can think of at the moment.
His wife is irrelevant - they were apart for longer than most marriages last.
What is relevant is his role in the transformation of a country that has a huge impact on the whole of Africa.
Which is descending into chaos !.
and that has what to do with him?
I was in Africa during the riots here - funnily enough at that time it looked similar from a different perspective."
I was just pointing out that the African nation is descending into chaos , wasn't blaming him .
As for South Africa, look up gated community and bullet proof cars .
Wasn't there some problem with Mr Mandela and condoms and the spread of Aids ?. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I can't follow who's supposed to have insulted who - or quite what some of the arguments are supposed to suggest which is a shame as it's an interesting discussion.
Presumably those that deplore Mandela on the basis of his involvement in a movement that was fighting against violence, prejudice and oppression beyond anything we can really comprehend a would also condemn all of the killings done in the name of our own country under the guise of 'freedom'?
To me Mandela had far purer justification than our involvement in pretty much anything I can think of at the moment.
His wife is irrelevant - they were apart for longer than most marriages last.
What is relevant is his role in the transformation of a country that has a huge impact on the whole of Africa.
Which is descending into chaos !.
and that has what to do with him?
I was in Africa during the riots here - funnily enough at that time it looked similar from a different perspective.
I was just pointing out that the African nation is descending into chaos , wasn't blaming him .
As for South Africa, look up gated community and bullet proof cars .
Wasn't there some problem with Mr Mandela and condoms and the spread of Aids ?. "
I think you may have the wrong South African president in mind! I don't need to look those things up, I see them quite regularly. |
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By *ezebelWoman
over a year ago
North of The Wall - youll need your vest |
" Once he has become part of South Africa's history South Africa can move forward."
Ive been watching the S African news channel for the last few days (because its either that or CNN  ).
A lot of the people being inter_iewed have concerns not about moving forward but about how things might potentially move backwards once the stability of the Mandela 'influence' on S African politics is gone.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Once he has become part of South Africa's history South Africa can move forward.
Ive been watching the S African news channel for the last few days (because its either that or CNN ).
A lot of the people being inter_iewed have concerns not about moving forward but about how things might potentially move backwards once the stability of the Mandela 'influence' on S African politics is gone.
"
Spot on |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Once he has become part of South Africa's history South Africa can move forward.
Ive been watching the S African news channel for the last few days (because its either that or CNN ).
A lot of the people being inter_iewed have concerns not about moving forward but about how things might potentially move backwards once the stability of the Mandela 'influence' on S African politics is gone.
"
Concerns yes, I'm sure there are those who will worry about South Africa once Mandela has passed, but that's to be expected as a relatively new nation heads into the unknown for the very first time. Even his funeral will bring S.Africans together like never before and from that they will see how far their nation has come. I'm not denying what Mandela has done for his country, nor what he has done more recently with his involvement in the establishment and work of 'The Elders'. It is this group of elder statespeople and human rights activists who are campaigning across the world on all manner of issues (one is their committed aims is ending child marriage). Mandela has done good in his life, but there is a dark shadow surrounding his past too. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My personal belief is that South Africa needs Mandela to pass from this world so that South Africans can finally lay the ghost of apartheid to rest. His living presence is a permanent reminder of something many South Africans would like to put behind them. It was the same for Germans who have had to continually live in shame for the actions of their forebears but as there are virtually no 1940s Nazis alive anymore it is something that is a part of their history now and Germans are generally accepted across the world as people who had nothing to do with WW2 (except for a few old die-hards who won't let modern Germans forget). Once he has become part of South Africa's history South Africa can move forward.
I doubt there are many (outside of this forum!) that would regard Mandela as a legacy of shame to apartheid. More a symbol of the indigenous people being able to overthrow a racist regime created by white outsiders - outsiders he nonetheless forgave and worked with to unify a nation."
And therein lies the reason he is feted. Apartheid was a terrible thing, so he is seen as a good guy fighting against it.
The end justified the means and all that...
Personally, I think murder is murder. I am sure that Bin Laden considered his fight against the West as being a justified war. But he is seen as a terrorist and murdering of many.
Mandela is no different in my mind.
Ghandi and Martin Luther King are examples of peaceful protest that achieved change. These are men that should be held in the esteem that they are. |
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By *ezebelWoman
over a year ago
North of The Wall - youll need your vest |
" Once he has become part of South Africa's history South Africa can move forward.
Ive been watching the S African news channel for the last few days (because its either that or CNN ).
A lot of the people being inter_iewed have concerns not about moving forward but about how things might potentially move backwards once the stability of the Mandela 'influence' on S African politics is gone.
Concerns yes, I'm sure there are those who will worry about South Africa once Mandela has passed, but that's to be expected as a relatively new nation heads into the unknown for the very first time. Even his funeral will bring S.Africans together like never before and from that they will see how far their nation has come. I'm not denying what Mandela has done for his country, nor what he has done more recently with his involvement in the establishment and work of 'The Elders'. It is this group of elder statespeople and human rights activists who are campaigning across the world on all manner of issues (one is their committed aims is ending child marriage). Mandela has done good in his life, but there is a dark shadow surrounding his past too."
Yep I dont disagree with that at all. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" Once he has become part of South Africa's history South Africa can move forward.
Ive been watching the S African news channel for the last few days (because its either that or CNN ).
A lot of the people being inter_iewed have concerns not about moving forward but about how things might potentially move backwards once the stability of the Mandela 'influence' on S African politics is gone.
Concerns yes, I'm sure there are those who will worry about South Africa once Mandela has passed, but that's to be expected as a relatively new nation heads into the unknown for the very first time. Even his funeral will bring S.Africans together like never before and from that they will see how far their nation has come. I'm not denying what Mandela has done for his country, nor what he has done more recently with his involvement in the establishment and work of 'The Elders'. It is this group of elder statespeople and human rights activists who are campaigning across the world on all manner of issues (one is their committed aims is ending child marriage). Mandela has done good in his life, but there is a dark shadow surrounding his past too."
Can't disagree with any of that. But there's then a debate as to whether there would have been the subsequent changes had he not made the choices he had - and the issue of context. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"My personal belief is that South Africa needs Mandela to pass from this world so that South Africans can finally lay the ghost of apartheid to rest. His living presence is a permanent reminder of something many South Africans would like to put behind them. It was the same for Germans who have had to continually live in shame for the actions of their forebears but as there are virtually no 1940s Nazis alive anymore it is something that is a part of their history now and Germans are generally accepted across the world as people who had nothing to do with WW2 (except for a few old die-hards who won't let modern Germans forget). Once he has become part of South Africa's history South Africa can move forward.
I doubt there are many (outside of this forum!) that would regard Mandela as a legacy of shame to apartheid. More a symbol of the indigenous people being able to overthrow a racist regime created by white outsiders - outsiders he nonetheless forgave and worked with to unify a nation.
And therein lies the reason he is feted. Apartheid was a terrible thing, so he is seen as a good guy fighting against it.
The end justified the means and all that...
Personally, I think murder is murder. I am sure that Bin Laden considered his fight against the West as being a justified war. But he is seen as a terrorist and murdering of many.
Mandela is no different in my mind.
Ghandi and Martin Luther King are examples of peaceful protest that achieved change. These are men that should be held in the esteem that they are."
Ironic that Mandela was an admirer of Gandhi and advocated non violent protest.. until he felt compelled to change. And ultimately Mandela did unite the nation - did Gandhi? (I don't know a great deal of Gandhi) |
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