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Russian Interrogation Techniques (probably a gruesome thread)
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
I've read some creative accounts of what the KGB is currently subjecting those responsible for the Moscow terrorist attacks to, with a few stories floating about involving ears and jump leads.
What are people's opinions of such practices? Should codes of civility and human decency always be adhered to for even the most dangerous in society, or when dealing with those who deliberately target innocent civilians, should the gloves come off completely? |
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By (user no longer on site) 35 weeks ago
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The old saying “Fuck around, find out” comes in to play here.
I have no issue with Russia treating the terrorists the way they have. The West is no different. We just don’t publicise it. We just silence the people who expose our actions. |
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By *alcon77Man 35 weeks ago
under the sun & the moon |
Hasn't there been studies that indicate that the person being tortured tends to say what they think that the person doing the torturing wants to hear rather than the actual truth, to stop the torture,so althea info obtained isn't that reliable?..
If they played james blunt on repeat, that could work. |
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By *irthandgirthMan 35 weeks ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"Hasn't there been studies that indicate that the person being tortured tends to say what they think that the person doing the torturing wants to hear rather than the actual truth, to stop the torture,so althea info obtained isn't that reliable?..
If they played james blunt on repeat, that could work."
It's well documented that torture is not an effective means of getting to the truth. It's an effective means to getting a confession, which may not be the same thing. |
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By *alcon77Man 35 weeks ago
under the sun & the moon |
"Hasn't there been studies that indicate that the person being tortured tends to say what they think that the person doing the torturing wants to hear rather than the actual truth, to stop the torture,so althea info obtained isn't that reliable?..
If they played james blunt on repeat, that could work.
It's well documented that torture is not an effective means of getting to the truth. It's an effective means to getting a confession, which may not be the same thing."
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"It’s a dichotomy, does the the ends justify the means, is lowering yourself to their level excusable in any circumstance?
I don’t know. "
What ends? If they're trying to get a confession because they don't have evidence, torture isn't going to get the truth out of an innocent person, because the torturers keep going until they get what they want, or the subject dies.
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By *irthandgirthMan 35 weeks ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"I've read some creative accounts of what the KGB is currently subjecting those responsible for the Moscow terrorist attacks to, with a few stories floating about involving ears and jump leads.
What are people's opinions of such practices? Should codes of civility and human decency always be adhered to for even the most dangerous in society, or when dealing with those who deliberately target innocent civilians, should the gloves come off completely?"
Torture is not effective. This has been proven time and again. In WW2 we got more real intelligence from Nazi captives by being nice and building rapport.
The Americans tried 'enhanced interrogation' at Guantanamo. They achieved almost precisely 3/5ths of fuck all with it. |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"Hasn't there been studies that indicate that the person being tortured tends to say what they think that the person doing the torturing wants to hear rather than the actual truth, to stop the torture,so althea info obtained isn't that reliable?..
If they played james blunt on repeat, that could work.
It's well documented that torture is not an effective means of getting to the truth. It's an effective means to getting a confession, which may not be the same thing."
Surely the goal here however isn't to get a confession, but information?
I'm sure these people know what they're doing, they will have a certain set of methods they follow for structuring their investigations, they'll use whatever interrogation techniques are required in order to get leads to explore, in the event the subject makes something up, they'll quickly discover this information to be false and this will result in more punishment.
These people aren't looking for an admission of guilt, they already know that, what they want is a trail to follow, and they'll do whatever is necessary to get the subject to reveal everything they know. |
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Don't condone the attack at all, despite russia being, ehh less than the best. Certaibly do jot condone torture either
They do however excell at torture and gereally not being nice. Not going to say anting in the open forum . Suffice to say you really, really don't want to know what rhey do for "fun" |
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By *irthandgirthMan 35 weeks ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"Hasn't there been studies that indicate that the person being tortured tends to say what they think that the person doing the torturing wants to hear rather than the actual truth, to stop the torture,so althea info obtained isn't that reliable?..
If they played james blunt on repeat, that could work.
It's well documented that torture is not an effective means of getting to the truth. It's an effective means to getting a confession, which may not be the same thing.
Surely the goal here however isn't to get a confession, but information?
I'm sure these people know what they're doing, they will have a certain set of methods they follow for structuring their investigations, they'll use whatever interrogation techniques are required in order to get leads to explore, in the event the subject makes something up, they'll quickly discover this information to be false and this will result in more punishment.
These people aren't looking for an admission of guilt, they already know that, what they want is a trail to follow, and they'll do whatever is necessary to get the subject to reveal everything they know."
See my previous post on here.
Torture is not an effective method for getting actionable intelligence from a captive.
I can write it in big crayon letters if you like. I know what I am talking about. I did a lot of specialist training in the military. |
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By *ullyMan 35 weeks ago
Near Clacton |
No leniency or soft handling of terrorists, they show none by killing men women and children indiscriminately and without remorse, they deserve whatever they get. It's their choice, they know the penalties and risks!! |
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
Torture doesn't work.
Anything said by the tortured is unreliable. People will give whatever answer they think will stop the pain, even if only for a short time. The information will be worthless.
I guess some of the posters here wish it would work, but whatever, it doesn't.
As awful as the perpetrators of the attack were, torture is only ever going to be revenge.
Gbat |
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By *ullyMan 35 weeks ago
Near Clacton |
My understanding is the torture is to gain details of the reasons, the names of any others involved, any more "actions" pending etc etc. All of which can be checked out while the person is held prisoner. |
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By *os19Man 35 weeks ago
Edmonton |
I appreciate not quite the same but the serial killer Colin Ireland who killed 5 gay men in the mid 90’s would torture his victims but lighting a cigarette lighter under the men’s balls in order to get the PIN number to their card accounts.It did work for him to get the information he wanted. |
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"I appreciate not quite the same but the serial killer Colin Ireland who killed 5 gay men in the mid 90’s would torture his victims but lighting a cigarette lighter under the men’s balls in order to get the PIN number to their card accounts.It did work for him to get the information he wanted."
Was he kidn@pping committed terrorists? Or were they very scared men who thought compliance would get them out of the horrendous situation they were in?
Gbat |
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"I appreciate not quite the same but the serial killer Colin Ireland who killed 5 gay men in the mid 90’s would torture his victims but lighting a cigarette lighter under the men’s balls in order to get the PIN number to their card accounts.It did work for him to get the information he wanted."
Definitely not the same thing.
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"I did a lot of specialist training in the military.
The Russian military?"
It wouldn't matter which military. Torture doesn't work whatever your nationality.
Gbat |
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With physical torture the risk is that the overwhelming fear makes the subject unreliable and as pointed out not as effective.
However physical discomfort is an excellent way of enhancing proven and effective psychological interrogation methods.
Ultimately are they looking for coherent intelligence and information or a real or fake confession of guilt as it does get those. |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"I did a lot of specialist training in the military.
The Russian military?
It wouldn't matter which military. Torture doesn't work whatever your nationality.
Gbat "
Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill. |
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The one thing you are taught in resistance to interrogation is that eventually everyone breaks, without exception.
The narrative that a strong willed person will be able to hold out indefinitely is a Hollywood myth. |
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By *irthandgirthMan 35 weeks ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"I did a lot of specialist training in the military.
The Russian military?
It wouldn't matter which military. Torture doesn't work whatever your nationality.
Gbat
Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill."
You really do have a room temperature IQ don't you? |
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill."
My apologies, when you asked for people's opinions on the subject, I didn't realise you only wanted those that agreed with you. You should make it clearer next time, fella.
Gbat |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"I did a lot of specialist training in the military.
The Russian military?
It wouldn't matter which military. Torture doesn't work whatever your nationality.
Gbat
Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill.
You really do have a room temperature IQ don't you? "
It doesn't need to be particularly high when I'm arguing with fridges. |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill.
My apologies, when you asked for people's opinions on the subject, I didn't realise you only wanted those that agreed with you. You should make it clearer next time, fella.
Gbat "
Oh no, by all means go ahead and assert your viewpoint with your characteristic absoluteness, I just think it seems a bit silly when compared to the methodology of those helping hold together a country which remains at the forefront of global politics despite an endlessly troubled history and massive internal corruption? |
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I'm in two minds about this.
With regard to torture for an admission of guilt, i assume anyone would cave eventually, even if innocent. With regard to gaining Intel about further atrocities? Maybe it would work, I'm clearly not an expert.
My concerns on seeing the photos of the accused is are they really guilty? (Russia arent above making things up, are they?) If so, harsh though it may be, I think they got off lightly.
Could this act as a deterrent?? Clearly nothing the West does is sufficient in deterring such evil f#ckers.
All we can hope for is that our Intel, however it is obtained, continues to keep us as safe as possible. |
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By *irthandgirthMan 35 weeks ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"I did a lot of specialist training in the military.
The Russian military?
It wouldn't matter which military. Torture doesn't work whatever your nationality.
Gbat
Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill.
You really do have a room temperature IQ don't you?
It doesn't need to be particularly high when I'm arguing with fridges."
One of us is qualified to talk about this subject. And it's not you. |
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"......compared to the methodology of those helping hold together a country which remains at the forefront of global politics despite an endlessly troubled history and massive internal corruption?"
Perhaps they have an endlessly troubled history and massive internal corruption because they aren't following the best path?
I am against torture, you're all for it. I'm happy with my stance and I bet you are too.
And yeah, I hold strong opinions and I'm quite happy to try and back them up with facts.
Gbat |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"I did a lot of specialist training in the military.
The Russian military?
It wouldn't matter which military. Torture doesn't work whatever your nationality.
Gbat
Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill.
You really do have a room temperature IQ don't you?
It doesn't need to be particularly high when I'm arguing with fridges.
One of us is qualified to talk about this subject. And it's not you."
Oh so you *are* familiar with Russia's approach to interrogation then.
Then please do tell me why they continue to engage in these brutal methods when they don't work? |
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Then please do tell me why they continue to engage in these brutal methods when they don't work?"
They are not very well trained?
They also go to other countries and spread around nerve agents and highly radioactive material. Not good plans in the long term.
They also invade other countries. (they've even tried to force a link between these terrorists and Ukraine).
They have rigged elections and murder political opponents too.
Russia does a lot of things wrong, I think.
Gbat |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"Perhaps they have an endlessly troubled history and massive internal corruption because they aren't following the best path?"
Either that or they understand that reality rarely adhere to people's ideological values, and that sometimes you have to be rough if you want to keep things in order?
"I am against torture, you're all for it."
I'm absolutely in favour of the vicious and evil in this world being repaid in kind. Perhaps if it happened often enough, there'd be a whole lot less vicious, evil people in the world?
"And yeah, I hold strong opinions and I'm quite happy to try and back them up with facts."
Good to hear but try not to include the ones you've reached round and pulled from the seat of your underpants okay? |
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By *irthandgirthMan 35 weeks ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"I did a lot of specialist training in the military.
The Russian military?
It wouldn't matter which military. Torture doesn't work whatever your nationality.
Gbat
Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill.
You really do have a room temperature IQ don't you?
It doesn't need to be particularly high when I'm arguing with fridges.
One of us is qualified to talk about this subject. And it's not you.
Oh so you *are* familiar with Russia's approach to interrogation then.
Then please do tell me why they continue to engage in these brutal methods when they don't work?"
I don't have the time to explain, so try reading this. Holler if you need a hand with the more difficult words.
https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/russia/Russ99o-04.htm |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"Then please do tell me why they continue to engage in these brutal methods when they don't work?
They are not very well trained?
They also go to other countries and spread around nerve agents and highly radioactive material. Not good plans in the long term.
They also invade other countries. (they've even tried to force a link between these terrorists and Ukraine).
They have rigged elections and murder political opponents too.
Russia does a lot of things wrong, I think.
Gbat "
Wasn't asking you fella.  |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"I did a lot of specialist training in the military.
The Russian military?
It wouldn't matter which military. Torture doesn't work whatever your nationality.
Gbat
Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill.
You really do have a room temperature IQ don't you?
It doesn't need to be particularly high when I'm arguing with fridges.
One of us is qualified to talk about this subject. And it's not you.
Oh so you *are* familiar with Russia's approach to interrogation then.
Then please do tell me why they continue to engage in these brutal methods when they don't work?
I don't have the time to explain, so try reading this. Holler if you need a hand with the more difficult words.
https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/russia/Russ99o-04.htm"
Einstein once said
'If you can't explain something in simple terms then you don't understand it well enough'
Explain your reasoning to me or cop out, your choice, but I'm not going to make your arguments for you. |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"I did a lot of specialist training in the military.
The Russian military?
It wouldn't matter which military. Torture doesn't work whatever your nationality.
Gbat
Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill.
You really do have a room temperature IQ don't you?
It doesn't need to be particularly high when I'm arguing with fridges.
One of us is qualified to talk about this subject. And it's not you.
Oh so you *are* familiar with Russia's approach to interrogation then.
Then please do tell me why they continue to engage in these brutal methods when they don't work?
I don't have the time to explain, so try reading this. Holler if you need a hand with the more difficult words.
https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/russia/Russ99o-04.htm
Einstein once said
'If you can't explain something in simple terms then you don't understand it well enough'
Explain your reasoning to me or cop out, your choice, but I'm not going to make your arguments for you."
Pardon me, I meant to say 'research', my bad. |
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By *irthandgirthMan 35 weeks ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"I did a lot of specialist training in the military.
The Russian military?
It wouldn't matter which military. Torture doesn't work whatever your nationality.
Gbat
Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill.
You really do have a room temperature IQ don't you?
It doesn't need to be particularly high when I'm arguing with fridges.
One of us is qualified to talk about this subject. And it's not you.
Oh so you *are* familiar with Russia's approach to interrogation then.
Then please do tell me why they continue to engage in these brutal methods when they don't work?
I don't have the time to explain, so try reading this. Holler if you need a hand with the more difficult words.
https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/russia/Russ99o-04.htm
Einstein once said
'If you can't explain something in simple terms then you don't understand it well enough'
Explain your reasoning to me or cop out, your choice, but I'm not going to make your arguments for you."
Firstly, you dont even have an argument, just a baseless opinion.
Secondly, in a nutshell - its a systemic leftover of the soviet era that they haven't learned from. They got away with bullying and torturing their own populace with absolute impunity and got away with it. They haven't learned. The last few years have shown that the average soviet military personnel is not well equipped, informed or trained.
Do you know what Russians do to captured enemies when they airlift them?
I do.
Have you ever seen a captive shit themselves when they are about to be transported because they don't know who has captured them, but they know what the Russians do?
I fucking do.
Your ego is arguing because you actually know fuck all about it. |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"I did a lot of specialist training in the military.
The Russian military?
It wouldn't matter which military. Torture doesn't work whatever your nationality.
Gbat
Then you run along and tell the KGB that fella, I'm sure they'll appreciate you for stopping them wasting their time and running up the electricity bill.
You really do have a room temperature IQ don't you?
It doesn't need to be particularly high when I'm arguing with fridges.
One of us is qualified to talk about this subject. And it's not you.
Oh so you *are* familiar with Russia's approach to interrogation then.
Then please do tell me why they continue to engage in these brutal methods when they don't work?
I don't have the time to explain, so try reading this. Holler if you need a hand with the more difficult words.
https://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/russia/Russ99o-04.htm
Einstein once said
'If you can't explain something in simple terms then you don't understand it well enough'
Explain your reasoning to me or cop out, your choice, but I'm not going to make your arguments for you."
"Firstly, you dont even have an argument, just a baseless opinion."
I neither making an argument nor offering an opinion, I was telling you to. Come on, keep up with my room temperature IQ!
"Secondly, in a nutshell - its a systemic leftover of the soviet era that they haven't learned from. They got away with bullying and torturing their own populace with absolute impunity and got away with it. They haven't learned. The last few years have shown that the average soviet military personnel is not well equipped, informed or trained.
Do you know what Russians do to captured enemies when they airlift them?
I do.
Have you ever seen a captive shit themselves when they are about to be transported because they don't know who has captured them, but they know what the Russians do?
I fucking do."
So they know how to keep their enemies afraid of them, I can see the logic in that.
"Your ego is arguing because you actually know fuck all about it."
My ego isn't a factor here, I'm speculating and asserting opinions, yet you've chosen to snap at me and so I'm responding in kind. |
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Perhaps they have an endlessly troubled history and massive internal corruption because they aren't following the best path?
Either that or they understand that reality rarely adhere to people's ideological values, and that sometimes you have to be rough if you want to keep things in order?"
No either. It's the "that" quoted above.
"Noble cause corruption" is when you have to do bad things because "it's the only way to get things done." It's why so many of the wrong people in the UK were previously convicted of crimes they didn't commit, and have subsequently been proven innocent.
"I am against torture, you're all for it.
I'm absolutely in favour of the vicious and evil in this world being repaid in kind. Perhaps if it happened often enough, there'd be a whole lot less vicious, evil people in the world? "
But what happens when you've got the wrong person? Heavy handed authoritarianism just leads to a greater resentment in affected groups. It's a great recruiting agent for future freedom fighters or terrorists.
Holding onto a democratic society's core values is an important thing to do.
"And yeah, I hold strong opinions and I'm quite happy to try and back them up with facts.
Good to hear but try not to include the ones you've reached round and pulled from the seat of your underpants okay?"
You have a habit of slipping into this unpleasant sort of comment when you don't agree. Try using some facts to support what you're saying. Try being nicer, perhaps you'd be less angry about so many things.
Gbat |
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"Hasn't there been studies that indicate that the person being tortured tends to say what they think that the person doing the torturing wants to hear rather than the actual truth, to stop the torture,so althea info obtained isn't that reliable?..
If they played james blunt on repeat, that could work.
It's well documented that torture is not an effective means of getting to the truth. It's an effective means to getting a confession, which may not be the same thing."
Keep speaking, mate. Most of us are listening.
I have no time for the perpetrators, or anyone like them, but this is a well known fact. The Russians will know it too, but the truth matters less in some societies.
If we treat terrorists in the same way they treat others there is no distinction between us and them, and there should be. |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"If we treat terrorists in the same way they treat others there is no distinction between us and them, and there should be."
At the moment, our softly softly approach to those who want to hurt us establishes a VERY particular distinction.
They're hard and strong, we're soft and weak. |
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The KGB and East German Intelligence (Stasi) trained other Intelligence Services on torture during the Cold War. They trained the Egyptians, Iraqis, Syrians, Vietnamese, Chinese and North Koreans. |
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"If we treat terrorists in the same way they treat others there is no distinction between us and them, and there should be.
At the moment, our softly softly approach to those who want to hurt us establishes a VERY particular distinction.
They're hard and strong, we're soft and weak."
There's nothing strong or hard about some of the barbarity carried out by terrorists..
Acting (most of the time) within the law and using lethal force as that applies is not weak..
They want to destroy the very fabric of societies they abhor and when we throw away the rules we've had for centuries and lower ourselves that's a victory for them.. |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"If we treat terrorists in the same way they treat others there is no distinction between us and them, and there should be.
At the moment, our softly softly approach to those who want to hurt us establishes a VERY particular distinction.
They're hard and strong, we're soft and weak.
There's nothing strong or hard about some of the barbarity carried out by terrorists..
Acting (most of the time) within the law and using lethal force as that applies is not weak..
They want to destroy the very fabric of societies they abhor and when we throw away the rules we've had for centuries and lower ourselves that's a victory for them.."
Terrorists, as their name implies, are able to cause terror, destroy lives and shake the population's faith in the protections our authorities provide and the safety of our lives and loved ones.
Savage and barbaric as they are, their methods work, and turning the other cheek will not stop them from striking again. Just like a good parent teaches their children, don't be a bully, but when a bully hits you, you hit them back, HARDER.
There's a saying by Nietzsche
'Many a time I have laughed at men who thought themselves virtuous because they had no claws'
There's no virtue in weakness, no person or society can be good or civilised if it lacks strength, only if they have the judgement to know when and when not to use it. When you're weak, you don't have that choice, therefore you cannot be moral.
And in the face of terrorism and the evil these creatures bring, we shouldn't be pulling any punches, violence is the only language they understand. |
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"Should codes of civility and human decency always be adhered to for even the most dangerous in society, or when dealing with those who deliberately target innocent civilians, should the gloves come off completely?"
I think you should ask the families of the victims. They are the ones who have to look at the empty chair at the table, every meal time, every day, every week, every month, every year for the rest of their lives.
Our nice, white, middle class know nothing values mean nothing until you walk a mile in their shoes. Our values are square pegs, they don't fit into their round holes.
Let Russia do what they need to do to try and reduce the risk of it happening again. |
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"If we treat terrorists in the same way they treat others there is no distinction between us and them, and there should be.
At the moment, our softly softly approach to those who want to hurt us establishes a VERY particular distinction.
They're hard and strong, we're soft and weak.
There's nothing strong or hard about some of the barbarity carried out by terrorists..
Acting (most of the time) within the law and using lethal force as that applies is not weak..
They want to destroy the very fabric of societies they abhor and when we throw away the rules we've had for centuries and lower ourselves that's a victory for them..
Terrorists, as their name implies, are able to cause terror, destroy lives and shake the population's faith in the protections our authorities provide and the safety of our lives and loved ones.
Savage and barbaric as they are, their methods work, and turning the other cheek will not stop them from striking again. Just like a good parent teaches their children, don't be a bully, but when a bully hits you, you hit them back, HARDER.
There's a saying by Nietzsche
'Many a time I have laughed at men who thought themselves virtuous because they had no claws'
There's no virtue in weakness, no person or society can be good or civilised if it lacks strength, only if they have the judgement to know when and when not to use it. When you're weak, you don't have that choice, therefore you cannot be moral.
And in the face of terrorism and the evil these creatures bring, we shouldn't be pulling any punches, violence is the only language they understand."
I know what a terrorist looks like and have seen very close up what they do, have dealt with them over the water back in the seventies and later on in the capital..
We do what's necessary as we always have done but when we act like they do we throw away what makes us different from then..
This fascination with the barbarity carried out by the Russians is pretty much at odds with how their actions have motivated the people of Ukraine to not allow them to be in that position again, butchering innocent unarmed people is never a sign of strength by any occupier it's the opposite..
The thread reads more like a wank fest for totalitarian thuggery which might sound good from the outside, but the reality of living under it is something different.. |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"Can’t believe I’m reading a post asking if you think torture is ok."
The real world is full of harsh realities we'd rather weren't there, but they don't cease to exist if we pretend they're not.
I'm not referring to the torture in this instance either, but rather the acts of evil which might justify it, in this case, murdering innocent people at a concert.
How can this world remain sane if such acts are not justifiably punished?
"I have a follow up question - should anyone be allowed to vote ? Do you think this leads to great leaders / decisions "
I'd go the Starship Troopers route and suggest that a vote is not a right, but rather has to be earned through service to society in some way, in the case of the book, through military service. |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"The thread reads more like a wank fest for totalitarian thuggery which might sound good from the outside, but the reality of living under it is something different.."
I'm aware of the dangers of giving power to the state to engage in acts will I will admit are frightening, even if my general stance is in support of them in this particular instance.
But I'm also aware that the world is shades of grey and we need to have a balance if society is to continue. Our country wasn't perfect when I was a kid, but I remember a time when we didn't have posters on phone boxes asking teenagers not to stab each other, cars being ploughed into crowds doing their Christmas shopping, buses and kids pop concerts being blown up.
It seems to me that if we're not willing to get tough on those who would do such things, then we will be giving them a free reign to be as tough as they like upon us. |
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Might I suggest that we remember how we felt about 9/11, Enniskillen, Warrenpoint, 7th July, Manchester Arena, a bridge in London (sorry, I forget the name), 7th October, Bali and many, many others. Being "different" doesn't work. Square pegs, round holes. |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"Might I suggest that we remember how we felt about 9/11, Enniskillen, Warrenpoint, 7th July, Manchester Arena, a bridge in London (sorry, I forget the name), 7th October, Bali and many, many others. Being "different" doesn't work. Square pegs, round holes."
Indeed. We've demonstrated our compassion and civility consistently for over 20 years now, apparently proving that we're 'better' people.
The end result? An ever increasing number of terrorist offences industrial scale sexual abuse and murder of our children, producing a long and ever lengthening line of 'better' broken lives and dead bodies.
We're long overdue to try responding differently. |
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"Might I suggest that we remember how we felt about 9/11, Enniskillen, Warrenpoint, 7th July, Manchester Arena, a bridge in London (sorry, I forget the name), 7th October, Bali and many, many others. Being "different" doesn't work. Square pegs, round holes."
We rightly felt anger and wanted those who were innocent and murdered to have justice, what we didn't do was to act like some want which is to lash out at who we thought commited the atrocities or all of that particular religion or culture that the terrorists were from..
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Terrorists, as their name implies, are able to cause terror, destroy lives and shake the population's faith in the protections our authorities provide and the safety of our lives and loved ones."
Sounds like they’ve beaten you then. You don’t have faith in our authorities and their current methods.
Would you accept soldiers running into a crowd of UK citizens and randomly shooting at them? Because that’s the sort of thing that happens when people “talk tough.”
Gbat |
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"I'd go the Starship Troopers route and suggest that a vote is not a right, but rather has to be earned through service to society in some way, in the case of the book, through military service."
You do know the whole story is an allegory for fascism? You know, fascists. Those rum buggers in Hitler’s gang? The ones that our grandparents helped defeat? The baddies in our Poppy Stories?
You’re holding them up as an example?
Gbat |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"I'd go the Starship Troopers route and suggest that a vote is not a right, but rather has to be earned through service to society in some way, in the case of the book, through military service.
You do know the whole story is an allegory for fascism? You know, fascists. Those rum buggers in Hitler’s gang? The ones that our grandparents helped defeat? The baddies in our Poppy Stories?
You’re holding them up as an example?
Gbat "
Your post is about as compelling as 'you're saying oxygen is a good thing? Do you know who also liked breathing oxygen? HITLER!'
It's a pity this site doesn't allow blocking of people on the forum too, as your contributions to these threads are consistently flaccid. |
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"I'd go the Starship Troopers route and suggest that a vote is not a right, but rather has to be earned through service to society in some way, in the case of the book, through military service.
You do know the whole story is an allegory for fascism? You know, fascists. Those rum buggers in Hitler’s gang? The ones that our grandparents helped defeat? The baddies in our Poppy Stories?
You’re holding them up as an example?
Gbat
Your post is about as compelling as 'you're saying oxygen is a good thing? Do you know who also liked breathing oxygen? HITLER!'
It's a pity this site doesn't allow blocking of people on the forum too, as your contributions to these threads are consistently flaccid."
You can choose to leave. That way you don’t have to read my threads.
Starship Troopers is about fascism.
Gbat |
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By (user no longer on site) 35 weeks ago
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"The old saying “Fuck around, find out” comes in to play here.
I have no issue with Russia treating the terrorists the way they have. The West is no different. We just don’t publicise it. We just silence the people who expose our actions. "
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By *rRiosMan 35 weeks ago
dublin |
There is a interesting article on the guardian titled “inside the CIA’s black site torture room” not sure I can post link. But it goes through the guys who literally wrote the book on “enhanced interragation techniques” it’s a really good read! |
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"I'd go the Starship Troopers route and suggest that a vote is not a right, but rather has to be earned through service to society in some way, in the case of the book, through military service.
You do know the whole story is an allegory for fascism? You know, fascists. Those rum buggers in Hitler’s gang? The ones that our grandparents helped defeat? The baddies in our Poppy Stories?
You’re holding them up as an example?
Gbat
Your post is about as compelling as 'you're saying oxygen is a good thing? Do you know who also liked breathing oxygen? HITLER!'
It's a pity this site doesn't allow blocking of people on the forum too, as your contributions to these threads are consistently flaccid."
Why the personal attack?
He makes a valid point about an example of fiction you quoted..
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"It's a pity this site doesn't allow blocking of people on the forum too, as your contributions to these threads are consistently flaccid.
Why the personal attack?
He makes a valid point about an example of fiction you quoted.."
Quite often when people struggle with facts, the personal attack is all that’s left.
Gbat |
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By (user no longer on site) 35 weeks ago
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We either stick with our morals or we don't.
Circumstances don't get to change these.
Don't agree with torture or the death penalty. Do I hear certain things and wish we didn't have morals at points, 100%. But logic must prevail over emotion. |
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How do we even know that these guys are even ISIS? And the real killers are still on the loose. They might be random migrant workers from Central Asia. Abducted by the Police and FSB and tortured into a false confession. It is Russia after all. |
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By *r_reus OP Man 35 weeks ago
Coventry |
"It's a pity this site doesn't allow blocking of people on the forum too, as your contributions to these threads are consistently flaccid.
Why the personal attack?
He makes a valid point about an example of fiction you quoted..
Quite often when people struggle with facts, the personal attack is all that’s left.
Gbat "
But you see it wasn't a personal attack, such would be referred to as an ad hominem, what I pointed out was how flimsy your arguments are, once again, consistently.
In this case, it's because you decry fascism because it was supposedly practiced by Hitler, who was in fact a socialist, a bit of a giveaway being that the party he fronted were the German National Socialist Party?
The main irony of Starship Troopers isn't about the society being run by fascism, but rather than the structure of said society isn't so different to the bugs they're fighting.
This doesn't really have much to do with earning a right to vote however, if you'd like to discuss THAT idea, go ahead. |
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By *batMan 35 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"In this case, it's because you decry fascism because it was supposedly practiced by Hitler, who was in fact a socialist, a bit of a giveaway being that the party he fronted were the German National Socialist Party?."
Sigh …..
Just because the word socialist is in both terms, don’t get the two mixed up.
Socialism (in very simple terms) is when there’s joint ownership of the means of production and distribution. A community enterprise. For instance nationalisation of major industries as opposed to individual ownership by a few “fat cats.” It’s liberal and left wing.
National Socialism was characterised by scapegoating some parts of society (mostly Jews). Racism and fervent nationalism were a big feature. A disdain for liberal politics, dictatorship, a reliance on military might, no outward differences were appreciated. All features of Nazism.
I DO decry fascism, but not because it was practised by Hitler, our (quite rightly) bogey man, but because it’s an abhorrent stance.
It wasn’t SUPPOSEDLY practiced by Hitler. It was.
He wasn’t a socialist. Quite the opposite.
He DID front the National Socialist Party, who were not Socialists.
But as usual, don’t let a fact spoil your rant.
Thinking on it, I’m probably going to take your name off my Christmas card list.
Gbat |
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"Can’t believe I’m reading a post asking if you think torture is ok.
The real world is full of harsh realities we'd rather weren't there, but they don't cease to exist if we pretend they're not.
I'm not referring to the torture in this instance either, but rather the acts of evil which might justify it, in this case, murdering innocent people at a concert.
How can this world remain sane if such acts are not justifiably punished?
."
Well that’s a good question.
Many people do remain sane though and would never justify torture or other similar things no matter how bad someone is.
Our ability to act and think for the greater good, to not be driven or make decisions on emotions but moral code, to want a better future for the future generations , that’s how we stay sane in a world where bad stuff happens.
Wanting revenge in the turn of torture isn’t a rational. Have you seen 1984 ? It’s like 2 mins of hate is needed to feel normal. I would suggest something is wrong with someone who needs that kind of release
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XvGmOZ5T6_Y |
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