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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. " No not really. What was said wasn’t genuine critique it was racist and it was misogynoir. And people are online telling Black Brits that ‘there’s no such thing as ‘Black Brit’ and that we need to forgive and others that are just using it to score political points. Like what message does that send to Black people facing racism in this country. Funny enough, for me and others I’ve read and spoken to, it’s all a familiar experience. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. " Anything? Really? | |||
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"I think we're moving forward but two steps forward one step back. I think currently we're steadfastly on the one step back. " definitely a step back. Don’t think there’s been two steps forward for a while. So I think we’re maybe actually behind where those steps got us | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. Anything? Really? " Not talking recently, as far back as 2017 she regularly has brain farts that would have anyone questioning her ability to stand upright, let alone be one the supposed greatest amongst us. Maybe she was under a lot of stress, but doesn't fill people with confidence that she would be a capable member of the government. | |||
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"I think we're moving forward but two steps forward one step back. I think currently we're steadfastly on the one step back. definitely a step back. Don’t think there’s been two steps forward for a while. So I think we’re maybe actually behind where those steps got us " You could be right. You're closer to the reality of it than me. Racist or not the last sentence of what F. Hester allegedly said is frightening. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. Anything? Really? Not talking recently, as far back as 2017 she regularly has brain farts that would have anyone questioning her ability to stand upright, let alone be one the supposed greatest amongst us. Maybe she was under a lot of stress, but doesn't fill people with confidence that she would be a capable member of the government." So it was ok for someone to say publicly that she should be shot? | |||
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"^^ sorry allegedly " tbf he’s responded and not denied saying it. And has addressed it with apology or regret I think | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. Anything? Really? Not talking recently, as far back as 2017 she regularly has brain farts that would have anyone questioning her ability to stand upright, let alone be one the supposed greatest amongst us. Maybe she was under a lot of stress, but doesn't fill people with confidence that she would be a capable member of the government." what does that have to do with anything? This is really confusing  | |||
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"I think we're moving forward. Maybe not as quickly as we should be. I find the younger generations on a whole are a lot more accepting of different races and are more used to integrating with people from different backgrounds and cultures. Just give it a few more years as the oldies start to die out"  feels really cruel way of looking at it. I think mostly younger generations are better though. Though of course racists still are among us | |||
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"^^ sorry allegedly tbf he’s responded and not denied saying it. And has addressed it with apology or regret I think" Yes I understand that he has. Why do you think he felt able to say it in the first place? | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. Anything? Really? Not talking recently, as far back as 2017 she regularly has brain farts that would have anyone questioning her ability to stand upright, let alone be one the supposed greatest amongst us. Maybe she was under a lot of stress, but doesn't fill people with confidence that she would be a capable member of the government." Wasnt that because she was ill, she's diabetic I think. Lots of other mps have said and done much worse than Diane, but people fixate on her and makes me wonder why. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. Anything? Really? Not talking recently, as far back as 2017 she regularly has brain farts that would have anyone questioning her ability to stand upright, let alone be one the supposed greatest amongst us. Maybe she was under a lot of stress, but doesn't fill people with confidence that she would be a capable member of the government. what does that have to do with anything? This is really confusing "White person does incompetent thing - neutral. Man - add points for presumed competence. Went to Eton - add lots of points for competence. = poow widdle Bowis he did his best Black person does incompetent thing = bad. Woman = worse. Labour = call the army. "Unfit to be in government" | |||
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"I think we're moving forward but two steps forward one step back. I think currently we're steadfastly on the one step back. definitely a step back. Don’t think there’s been two steps forward for a while. So I think we’re maybe actually behind where those steps got us You could be right. You're closer to the reality of it than me. Racist or not the last sentence of what F. Hester allegedly said is frightening." I think it was all frightening. And I think the response of accepting apology for Diane and Black women and Black people, speaking for us, encouraging forgiveness and using it all for political gain doesn’t really suggest to me it’s an issue that we’re exactly progressing on | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. Anything? Really? Not talking recently, as far back as 2017 she regularly has brain farts that would have anyone questioning her ability to stand upright, let alone be one the supposed greatest amongst us. Maybe she was under a lot of stress, but doesn't fill people with confidence that she would be a capable member of the government. So it was ok for someone to say publicly that she should be shot?" Did I say that? No The issue of race is something that needs to be addressed every day by ordinary people, who get worse threats and far less protection than a sitting MP in one of the safest seats in the country. For 37 years she has been in a constituency that would vote for a cat turd if it had a red rosette. No, obviously she doesn't deserve to get shot, what an idiotic statement, but Hackney North really deserves a capable representative and Labour has plenty to go round. As far as race relations in Britain go, it's definitely 2 steps forward, 1 step back and we seem to be in a step back period. Things will improve, but not because of her, because of you. | |||
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"I think we're moving forward. Maybe not as quickly as we should be. I find the younger generations on a whole are a lot more accepting of different races and are more used to integrating with people from different backgrounds and cultures. Just give it a few more years as the oldies start to die out feels really cruel way of looking at it. I think mostly younger generations are better though. Though of course racists still are among us "The people who were pushing for change in the 60s and such are now pretty old. "Wait until they die" feels like looking forward to when people will stop calling millennials children. When all of gen X is dead, probably. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. Anything? Really? Not talking recently, as far back as 2017 she regularly has brain farts that would have anyone questioning her ability to stand upright, let alone be one the supposed greatest amongst us. Maybe she was under a lot of stress, but doesn't fill people with confidence that she would be a capable member of the government. Wasnt that because she was ill, she's diabetic I think. Lots of other mps have said and done much worse than Diane, but people fixate on her and makes me wonder why. " We know why. Hester has said!!!! | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. " I’ve not read the whole thread but what the actual fuck | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. I’ve not read the whole thread but what the actual fuck "we know the actual fuck | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. Anything? Really? Not talking recently, as far back as 2017 she regularly has brain farts that would have anyone questioning her ability to stand upright, let alone be one the supposed greatest amongst us. Maybe she was under a lot of stress, but doesn't fill people with confidence that she would be a capable member of the government. So it was ok for someone to say publicly that she should be shot? Did I say that? No The issue of race is something that needs to be addressed every day by ordinary people, who get worse threats and far less protection than a sitting MP in one of the safest seats in the country. For 37 years she has been in a constituency that would vote for a cat turd if it had a red rosette. No, obviously she doesn't deserve to get shot, what an idiotic statement, but Hackney North really deserves a capable representative and Labour has plenty to go round. As far as race relations in Britain go, it's definitely 2 steps forward, 1 step back and we seem to be in a step back period. Things will improve, but not because of her, because of you." I hope she stands as independent as wins because the people I know in her constituency, where my Dad was born and raised and my Nan worked in schools her entire life actually really love Diane. | |||
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"There is a politics forum. Could we keep the Lounge free of that stuff, please?" I’m allowed to ask about race in Britain in the lounge? Tom posts threads on various news stories in here everyday. And also - my question about race in Britain, what my thread is actually about, is not political. It’s my real life. | |||
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"I think most of the steps that we've made as a society is cosmetic, and much more has done to cater to the feelings of white people who want to be reassured that they're not racist. Bit like the people in America that try to paper over the whole owning people thing, because it might hurt widdle fee fees to acknowledge that your ancestors or their communities did shitty things in the past." | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. I’ve not read the whole thread but what the actual fuck "Came out swinging | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. Anything? Really? Not talking recently, as far back as 2017 she regularly has brain farts that would have anyone questioning her ability to stand upright, let alone be one the supposed greatest amongst us. Maybe she was under a lot of stress, but doesn't fill people with confidence that she would be a capable member of the government. So it was ok for someone to say publicly that she should be shot? Did I say that? No The issue of race is something that needs to be addressed every day by ordinary people, who get worse threats and far less protection than a sitting MP in one of the safest seats in the country. For 37 years she has been in a constituency that would vote for a cat turd if it had a red rosette. No, obviously she doesn't deserve to get shot, what an idiotic statement, but Hackney North really deserves a capable representative and Labour has plenty to go round. As far as race relations in Britain go, it's definitely 2 steps forward, 1 step back and we seem to be in a step back period. Things will improve, but not because of her, because of you." Ok. I was talking about Frank Hester's remarks which I understood was connected to the op. | |||
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"Both my parents are immigrants, they reckon they couldn't have picked a nicer, more welcoming place. None of my none English friends seem to have issues either. " My Nan loves this country and she’s entitled to. Doesn’t make her experiences, her children’s, her grandchildren’s or even great grandchildren’s experiences with racism any less valid. Lots of my friends have experienced racism. Their response and care varies massively. Some care. Some don’t. Some are affected. Some are less so. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. I’ve not read the whole thread but what the actual fuck
Came out swinging "We're only looking at recent history? Not her support for the IRA in the same year as the Hyde Park bombings? | |||
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"There was literally more uproar and scrutiny about her drinking a can of mojito on the train than there was when someone said she deserved to be shot and made him hate all black women "And we all know why. Just some want to cover it in concealer and pretend they're good people. | |||
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"There was literally more uproar and scrutiny about her drinking a can of mojito on the train than there was when someone said she deserved to be shot and made him hate all black women "For me, the treatment of Diane right now and through the years are so representative of wider views of and respect for Black people living in Britain. | |||
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"Both my parents are immigrants, they reckon they couldn't have picked a nicer, more welcoming place. None of my none English friends seem to have issues either. My Nan loves this country and she’s entitled to. Doesn’t make her experiences, her children’s, her grandchildren’s or even great grandchildren’s experiences with racism any less valid. Lots of my friends have experienced racism. Their response and care varies massively. Some care. Some don’t. Some are affected. Some are less so. " I'm an immigrant and have received... I want to say reverse racism. "You're one of the good ones" etc. I do not wish to be good by those standards and although I know I am safe from that shitbaggery, I would like it far away from me. Like in the bottom of the sea away from me. With that billionaire who thought health and safety was for suckers. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. I’ve not read the whole thread but what the actual fuck
Came out swinging
We're only looking at recent history? Not her support for the IRA in the same year as the Hyde Park bombings? "‘This Diane Abbott stuff and more so the response from powerful people and online has really shaken and triggered me. Anyway- do we think we’re actually moving forward re: racism in Britain?’ Why are you talking about any of this stuff it’s completely irrelevant. | |||
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"Both my parents are immigrants, they reckon they couldn't have picked a nicer, more welcoming place. None of my none English friends seem to have issues either. My Nan loves this country and she’s entitled to. Doesn’t make her experiences, her children’s, her grandchildren’s or even great grandchildren’s experiences with racism any less valid. Lots of my friends have experienced racism. Their response and care varies massively. Some care. Some don’t. Some are affected. Some are less so. I'm an immigrant and have received... I want to say reverse racism. "You're one of the good ones" etc. I do not wish to be good by those standards and although I know I am safe from that shitbaggery, I would like it far away from me. Like in the bottom of the sea away from me. With that billionaire who thought health and safety was for suckers." You’re only welcome here if you’re likeable it feels like. Which sucks. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. I’ve not read the whole thread but what the actual fuck
Came out swinging
We're only looking at recent history? Not her support for the IRA in the same year as the Hyde Park bombings? "Let’s be clear, she’s a terrible politician in some regards. I say this as someone born in her constituency area, who also worked there for many many years It’s ok to criticise her, Suella, Kemi, Priti, Cleverly, Kwarteng and others for being terrible at their jobs. But let’s be clear, when aimed at Diane Abbot it is often cloaked in horrendous racial undertones (or overt ones that radio phone ins have spent days debating over whether or not it was actually racist) | |||
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"Both my parents are immigrants, they reckon they couldn't have picked a nicer, more welcoming place. None of my none English friends seem to have issues either. My Nan loves this country and she’s entitled to. Doesn’t make her experiences, her children’s, her grandchildren’s or even great grandchildren’s experiences with racism any less valid. Lots of my friends have experienced racism. Their response and care varies massively. Some care. Some don’t. Some are affected. Some are less so. I'm an immigrant and have received... I want to say reverse racism. "You're one of the good ones" etc. I do not wish to be good by those standards and although I know I am safe from that shitbaggery, I would like it far away from me. Like in the bottom of the sea away from me. With that billionaire who thought health and safety was for suckers. You’re only welcome here if you’re likeable it feels like. Which sucks. " I'm welcome here because apparently Australia isn't a country and I'm British
That can also fuck off into the sea | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. " The particular comment that is being spoken about WAS racist | |||
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"Both my parents are immigrants, they reckon they couldn't have picked a nicer, more welcoming place. None of my none English friends seem to have issues either. My Nan loves this country and she’s entitled to. Doesn’t make her experiences, her children’s, her grandchildren’s or even great grandchildren’s experiences with racism any less valid. Lots of my friends have experienced racism. Their response and care varies massively. Some care. Some don’t. Some are affected. Some are less so. I'm an immigrant and have received... I want to say reverse racism. "You're one of the good ones" etc. I do not wish to be good by those standards and although I know I am safe from that shitbaggery, I would like it far away from me. Like in the bottom of the sea away from me. With that billionaire who thought health and safety was for suckers. You’re only welcome here if you’re likeable it feels like. Which sucks. " I'm sorry you're feeling like this Mr pickle You are more qualified to talk about the experience of racism than I am. I felt there was a lot of racisim a few years ago, after those missed penalties in the euro 2020 game. People put all sorts on social media and some ended up losing jobs etc. | |||
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"If you ask people of colour, nearly all will say they’ve had racism directed at them, directly or indirectly. It’s never going to be over and done with because racism is a disease that just festers. What Hestor said about Diane Abbot was clearly racist and clearly misogynistic. He’s apologised for ‘causing offence’ but not for what he actually said. Makes me wonder if he belongs in the space of people who feel comfortable saying these kinds of things in public, and privately, because they have a certain platform or power or an audience that condones it - there are no real consequences, or at least haven’t been until quite recently, and I think social media has played a part in outing a lot of it. For what it’s worth, I’m a woman of colour and I routinely have weird comments about where I’m from etc - even having been born here, still always made to feel ‘other’ by people who are white because they can. I applaud the people in these threads who challenge racism in all its guises, it’s an uphill challenge at the best of times - the Tory apologia for what Hestor said has been jaw dropping over this week and makes you realise just how far right that party has swung. Has there been progress, yes of course, but in many ways, it’s still so depressing and I can’t imagine what it must be like for women like Diane Abbot, working in the public eye and still, still, having to put up with such hateful, vile comments. " | |||
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"I think we're moving forward but two steps forward one step back. I think currently we're steadfastly on the one step back. definitely a step back. Don’t think there’s been two steps forward for a while. So I think we’re maybe actually behind where those steps got us " Just my take on things: seems to me that in the regular day-to-day, most people of all colours are more than happy to rub along together through this thing called life - after all, the cost of living crisis and other current issues don't discriminate. However, others feel emboldened online (and more frequently IRL) to apologise for, deflect, gaslight, defend and even encourage or take part in racist behaviour (I know that Fab is a small cross-section of humanity, but you see those behaviours here in certain discussions), and I get the feeling those people will never change, regardless, especially if they feel they've been "enabled". But there's more of "us" than there are of "them"!! Personally, I think we're further on than we were (and I believe in the main that most people are more willing these days to call stuff out), but the "optics" might appear to suggest otherwise. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. " ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. Anything? Really? Not talking recently, as far back as 2017 she regularly has brain farts that would have anyone questioning her ability to stand upright, let alone be one the supposed greatest amongst us. Maybe she was under a lot of stress, but doesn't fill people with confidence that she would be a capable member of the government." Fair point re. some of her statements and actions, but have you seen the current government? Not exactly a hotbed of competence themselves...  | |||
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"Both my parents are immigrants, they reckon they couldn't have picked a nicer, more welcoming place. None of my none English friends seem to have issues either. My Nan loves this country and she’s entitled to. Doesn’t make her experiences, her children’s, her grandchildren’s or even great grandchildren’s experiences with racism any less valid. Lots of my friends have experienced racism. Their response and care varies massively. Some care. Some don’t. Some are affected. Some are less so. " I wasn't trying to invalidate anyones experiences. I'm just putting the experiences of those I know and myself forward. As the son of immigrants I've never had a bad time (i do look local though) My very foreign name has never caused me any issue either. Most of my none English friends were born here and seem to get on pretty well in life with no issues of note. I'm positive some racism exists here, I'd be a fool to think it doesn’t. Some humans are wired to be dicks to ourtsiders, I've known people from towns 2 miles from each other get into fights and abuse each other verbally or in writing (spray paint) simply for being from the next town over. There will always be an amount of people who behave like that but In my own experience, and from what I can gather from those around me, the uk is pretty high up on the list of friendly places. I guess it depends on a lot of things, where you live, the generation you belong to, your own reactions to things around you etc... | |||
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"There is a politics forum. Could we keep the Lounge free of that stuff, please?" You do know that you're totally free to give this thread a swerve...?? | |||
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"I think we're moving forward but two steps forward one step back. I think currently we're steadfastly on the one step back. definitely a step back. Don’t think there’s been two steps forward for a while. So I think we’re maybe actually behind where those steps got us Just my take on things: seems to me that in the regular day-to-day, most people of all colours are more than happy to rub along together through this thing called life - after all, the cost of living crisis and other current issues don't discriminate. However, others feel emboldened online (and more frequently IRL) to apologise for, deflect, gaslight, defend and even encourage or take part in racist behaviour (I know that Fab is a small cross-section of humanity, but you see those behaviours here in certain discussions), and I get the feeling those people will never change, regardless, especially if they feel they've been "enabled". But there's more of "us" than there are of "them"!! Personally, I think we're further on than we were (and I believe in the main that most people are more willing these days to call stuff out), but the "optics" might appear to suggest otherwise." It’s fine saying we’re further along but where was the bar/starting point? If it was the era of “if you want a coloured for a neighbour vote Labour” or maybe the peak of p**i bashing season then
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"If you ask people of colour, nearly all will say they’ve had racism directed at them, directly or indirectly. It’s never going to be over and done with because racism is a disease that just festers. What Hestor said about Diane Abbot was clearly racist and clearly misogynistic. He’s apologised for ‘causing offence’ but not for what he actually said. Makes me wonder if he belongs in the space of people who feel comfortable saying these kinds of things in public, and privately, because they have a certain platform or power or an audience that condones it - there are no real consequences, or at least haven’t been until quite recently, and I think social media has played a part in outing a lot of it. For what it’s worth, I’m a woman of colour and I routinely have weird comments about where I’m from etc - even having been born here, still always made to feel ‘other’ by people who are white because they can. I applaud the people in these threads who challenge racism in all its guises, it’s an uphill challenge at the best of times - the Tory apologia for what Hestor said has been jaw dropping over this week and makes you realise just how far right that party has swung. Has there been progress, yes of course, but in many ways, it’s still so depressing and I can’t imagine what it must be like for women like Diane Abbot, working in the public eye and still, still, having to put up with such hateful, vile comments. "  Thank you for sharing and being real. It’s a tough space to be in sometimes but this space is used to talk about all types of life experiences and I’m of the opinion that ours are just as worthy of our conversation.
Actually the treatment of Diane, even Meghan to a lesser extent and of course various other people of colour occupying space in public, is really what makes me worry about whether things are actually improving or not | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T" This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it? | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. I’ve not read the whole thread but what the actual fuck
Came out swinging
We're only looking at recent history? Not her support for the IRA in the same year as the Hyde Park bombings?
Let’s be clear, she’s a terrible politician in some regards. I say this as someone born in her constituency area, who also worked there for many many years
It’s ok to criticise her, Suella, Kemi, Priti, Cleverly, Kwarteng and others for being terrible at their jobs. But let’s be clear, when aimed at Diane Abbot it is often cloaked in horrendous racial undertones (or overt ones that radio phone ins have spent days debating over whether or not it was actually racist) "That part | |||
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"If you ask people of colour, nearly all will say they’ve had racism directed at them, directly or indirectly. It’s never going to be over and done with because racism is a disease that just festers. What Hestor said about Diane Abbot was clearly racist and clearly misogynistic. He’s apologised for ‘causing offence’ but not for what he actually said. Makes me wonder if he belongs in the space of people who feel comfortable saying these kinds of things in public, and privately, because they have a certain platform or power or an audience that condones it - there are no real consequences, or at least haven’t been until quite recently, and I think social media has played a part in outing a lot of it. For what it’s worth, I’m a woman of colour and I routinely have weird comments about where I’m from etc - even having been born here, still always made to feel ‘other’ by people who are white because they can. I applaud the people in these threads who challenge racism in all its guises, it’s an uphill challenge at the best of times - the Tory apologia for what Hestor said has been jaw dropping over this week and makes you realise just how far right that party has swung. Has there been progress, yes of course, but in many ways, it’s still so depressing and I can’t imagine what it must be like for women like Diane Abbot, working in the public eye and still, still, having to put up with such hateful, vile comments. Thank you for sharing and being real. It’s a tough space to be in sometimes but this space is used to talk about all types of life experiences and I’m of the opinion that ours are just as worthy of our conversation.
Actually the treatment of Diane, even Meghan to a lesser extent and of course various other people of colour occupying space in public, is really what makes me worry about whether things are actually improving or not"I’m not sure the MM thing is to a lesser extent and the reporting of the current controversy with the Royals emphasises that quite poignantly | |||
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"I think we're moving forward but two steps forward one step back. I think currently we're steadfastly on the one step back. definitely a step back. Don’t think there’s been two steps forward for a while. So I think we’re maybe actually behind where those steps got us Just my take on things: seems to me that in the regular day-to-day, most people of all colours are more than happy to rub along together through this thing called life - after all, the cost of living crisis and other current issues don't discriminate. However, others feel emboldened online (and more frequently IRL) to apologise for, deflect, gaslight, defend and even encourage or take part in racist behaviour (I know that Fab is a small cross-section of humanity, but you see those behaviours here in certain discussions), and I get the feeling those people will never change, regardless, especially if they feel they've been "enabled". But there's more of "us" than there are of "them"!! Personally, I think we're further on than we were (and I believe in the main that most people are more willing these days to call stuff out), but the "optics" might appear to suggest otherwise." It’s hard isn’t it! Like the optics aren’t looking good man. Ofc things are better than they were 40/50 years ago. Even 20 years ago. But some days it feels like they’re not. And I know those days are less frequent but they’re fucking shit days man | |||
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"If you ask people of colour, nearly all will say they’ve had racism directed at them, directly or indirectly. It’s never going to be over and done with because racism is a disease that just festers. What Hestor said about Diane Abbot was clearly racist and clearly misogynistic. He’s apologised for ‘causing offence’ but not for what he actually said. Makes me wonder if he belongs in the space of people who feel comfortable saying these kinds of things in public, and privately, because they have a certain platform or power or an audience that condones it - there are no real consequences, or at least haven’t been until quite recently, and I think social media has played a part in outing a lot of it. For what it’s worth, I’m a woman of colour and I routinely have weird comments about where I’m from etc - even having been born here, still always made to feel ‘other’ by people who are white because they can. I applaud the people in these threads who challenge racism in all its guises, it’s an uphill challenge at the best of times - the Tory apologia for what Hestor said has been jaw dropping over this week and makes you realise just how far right that party has swung. Has there been progress, yes of course, but in many ways, it’s still so depressing and I can’t imagine what it must be like for women like Diane Abbot, working in the public eye and still, still, having to put up with such hateful, vile comments. Thank you for sharing and being real. It’s a tough space to be in sometimes but this space is used to talk about all types of life experiences and I’m of the opinion that ours are just as worthy of our conversation.
Actually the treatment of Diane, even Meghan to a lesser extent and of course various other people of colour occupying space in public, is really what makes me worry about whether things are actually improving or not
I’m not sure the MM thing is to a lesser extent and the reporting of the current controversy with the Royals emphasises that quite poignantly "I mean I think you’re right. I think the language is more specific around Diane. But the tone is the same. And actually I think one of the reasons I have taken interest in MM is actually because of a recognition of what it feels like we’re witnessing. | |||
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"I think we're moving forward but two steps forward one step back. I think currently we're steadfastly on the one step back. definitely a step back. Don’t think there’s been two steps forward for a while. So I think we’re maybe actually behind where those steps got us Just my take on things: seems to me that in the regular day-to-day, most people of all colours are more than happy to rub along together through this thing called life - after all, the cost of living crisis and other current issues don't discriminate. However, others feel emboldened online (and more frequently IRL) to apologise for, deflect, gaslight, defend and even encourage or take part in racist behaviour (I know that Fab is a small cross-section of humanity, but you see those behaviours here in certain discussions), and I get the feeling those people will never change, regardless, especially if they feel they've been "enabled". But there's more of "us" than there are of "them"!! Personally, I think we're further on than we were (and I believe in the main that most people are more willing these days to call stuff out), but the "optics" might appear to suggest otherwise. It’s fine saying we’re further along but where was the bar/starting point? If it was the era of “if you want a coloured for a neighbour vote Labour” or maybe the peak of p**i bashing season then
"Tough one, man...I don't know where the starting point is/was...I guess it depends how far you or I would want to go back to compare. And for the record, I'm not for a moment suggesting everything's rosy...far from it. Some things are better, some are worse, and of course, it all depends on our personal experiences too. Like I said, just my take. | |||
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"I think we're moving forward but two steps forward one step back. I think currently we're steadfastly on the one step back. definitely a step back. Don’t think there’s been two steps forward for a while. So I think we’re maybe actually behind where those steps got us Just my take on things: seems to me that in the regular day-to-day, most people of all colours are more than happy to rub along together through this thing called life - after all, the cost of living crisis and other current issues don't discriminate. However, others feel emboldened online (and more frequently IRL) to apologise for, deflect, gaslight, defend and even encourage or take part in racist behaviour (I know that Fab is a small cross-section of humanity, but you see those behaviours here in certain discussions), and I get the feeling those people will never change, regardless, especially if they feel they've been "enabled". But there's more of "us" than there are of "them"!! Personally, I think we're further on than we were (and I believe in the main that most people are more willing these days to call stuff out), but the "optics" might appear to suggest otherwise. It’s hard isn’t it! Like the optics aren’t looking good man. Ofc things are better than they were 40/50 years ago. Even 20 years ago. But some days it feels like they’re not. And I know those days are less frequent but they’re fucking shit days man" Oh, I hear you - all I know is, I'm not going back to those days quietly, even at my less dynamic stage of life...lived through enough of that shit to know that it's not happening again without consequences. See, one thing that racists haven't factored in, is that while they might want to go back to those days, it's NOT those days. Remember that bloke who was filmed getting knocked out on the Tube in 2021/2 after his racist rants and comments? He soon found that out... | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it? "I would have thought that living one's life included open discussions about the challenges you face and how to overcome them, improve them, or mitigate the harm. Or is it more "don't talk about stuff that makes us uncomfortable?" that sounds about white | |||
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"If you ask people of colour, nearly all will say they’ve had racism directed at them, directly or indirectly. It’s never going to be over and done with because racism is a disease that just festers. What Hestor said about Diane Abbot was clearly racist and clearly misogynistic. He’s apologised for ‘causing offence’ but not for what he actually said. Makes me wonder if he belongs in the space of people who feel comfortable saying these kinds of things in public, and privately, because they have a certain platform or power or an audience that condones it - there are no real consequences, or at least haven’t been until quite recently, and I think social media has played a part in outing a lot of it. For what it’s worth, I’m a woman of colour and I routinely have weird comments about where I’m from etc - even having been born here, still always made to feel ‘other’ by people who are white because they can. I applaud the people in these threads who challenge racism in all its guises, it’s an uphill challenge at the best of times - the Tory apologia for what Hestor said has been jaw dropping over this week and makes you realise just how far right that party has swung. Has there been progress, yes of course, but in many ways, it’s still so depressing and I can’t imagine what it must be like for women like Diane Abbot, working in the public eye and still, still, having to put up with such hateful, vile comments. Thank you for sharing and being real. It’s a tough space to be in sometimes but this space is used to talk about all types of life experiences and I’m of the opinion that ours are just as worthy of our conversation.
Actually the treatment of Diane, even Meghan to a lesser extent and of course various other people of colour occupying space in public, is really what makes me worry about whether things are actually improving or not
I’m not sure the MM thing is to a lesser extent and the reporting of the current controversy with the Royals emphasises that quite poignantly "I saw a lot of side by side headlines about Meghan versus Kate and how the media discussed their pregnancies. Amazingly, when Kate held her belly it was all loving and maternal and wonderful, and there were several pictures of Meghan in the same pose, with the papers calling her attention seeking. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it? "I have no clue what idek means but your opinion is a valid opinion and your anger is just as valid but imho I would try my best not to let it eat me up . T | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it?
I would have thought that living one's life included open discussions about the challenges you face and how to overcome them, improve them, or mitigate the harm.
Or is it more "don't talk about stuff that makes us uncomfortable?" that sounds about white"
...and why should we just suck it up, for God's sake? | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it?
I have no clue what idek means but your opinion is a valid opinion and your anger is just as valid but imho I would try my best not to let it eat me up .
T"It's an acronym for 'i don't even know' | |||
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"I think we're moving forward. Maybe not as quickly as we should be. I find the younger generations on a whole are a lot more accepting of different races and are more used to integrating with people from different backgrounds and cultures. Just give it a few more years as the oldies start to die out feels really cruel way of looking at it. I think mostly younger generations are better though. Though of course racists still are among us "But I'm an old fart now and my generation, when we were the youth living in inner city London, weren't racist. Of course there were racists but we just called them out and called them wankers. I'm genuinely bemused by its resurgence.  | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it?
I have no clue what idek means but your opinion is a valid opinion and your anger is just as valid but imho I would try my best not to let it eat me up .
T
It's an acronym for 'i don't even know'"Ha ok cheers nice you are so down with the kids unlike me. T | |||
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"I lived in Glasgow for a time and remember rivalries between parts of the town, you'd see shit sprayed up on walls or every now and again people gobbing off at each other. In the same parts of towns you'd see rivalries between neighbouring estates, again usually involving a lot of verbal abuse, some shit daubed on walls in spray and the occasional fight/jumping etc (I see the same where I currently live) and within the estates there would even be rivalries between streets (fuck me, parts of Belfast is still bad for that, some estates are street by street rivalries!) Usually showing in the same way, graffiti, generally shittyness towards each other. There's still pockets of trouble divided along blue/green lines in Scotland, religion through football, the amount of d*unken brawls/attacks that must have caused over the years! These are all countrymen, all from the same places, same colours, same backgrounds approximately and they still hate each other despite being the same race as it were. How does that part of human nature work into racism? Is racism just one more division line? Does there come a point where a person can happily accept that a proportion of the people around them won't like them and the reason doesn't matter? Does it matter if you get punched and spat on by someone because you're a different race more than if you get punched and spat on for supporting celtic instead of rangers, or because you come from the wrong estate? Or you're from the wrong family etc etc... I'm genuinely asking these questions too, not seeking to make small something that matters to you op, but you've started an interesting thread and it's caused me to have a few questions to mull over. Is it still a little bit ingrained in human nature to dislike 'them over there!'? Is it possible to make everyone be good to everyone? Sorry to bang on, but yeah, interesting thread, raises many questions! " I fucking hate football. It got old really quickly being asked what team you support before getting battered. Face it, some people are just cunts. | |||
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"If you ask people of colour, nearly all will say they’ve had racism directed at them, directly or indirectly. It’s never going to be over and done with because racism is a disease that just festers. What Hestor said about Diane Abbot was clearly racist and clearly misogynistic. He’s apologised for ‘causing offence’ but not for what he actually said. Makes me wonder if he belongs in the space of people who feel comfortable saying these kinds of things in public, and privately, because they have a certain platform or power or an audience that condones it - there are no real consequences, or at least haven’t been until quite recently, and I think social media has played a part in outing a lot of it. For what it’s worth, I’m a woman of colour and I routinely have weird comments about where I’m from etc - even having been born here, still always made to feel ‘other’ by people who are white because they can. I applaud the people in these threads who challenge racism in all its guises, it’s an uphill challenge at the best of times - the Tory apologia for what Hestor said has been jaw dropping over this week and makes you realise just how far right that party has swung. Has there been progress, yes of course, but in many ways, it’s still so depressing and I can’t imagine what it must be like for women like Diane Abbot, working in the public eye and still, still, having to put up with such hateful, vile comments. Thank you for sharing and being real. It’s a tough space to be in sometimes but this space is used to talk about all types of life experiences and I’m of the opinion that ours are just as worthy of our conversation.
Actually the treatment of Diane, even Meghan to a lesser extent and of course various other people of colour occupying space in public, is really what makes me worry about whether things are actually improving or not
I’m not sure the MM thing is to a lesser extent and the reporting of the current controversy with the Royals emphasises that quite poignantly
I saw a lot of side by side headlines about Meghan versus Kate and how the media discussed their pregnancies.
Amazingly, when Kate held her belly it was all loving and maternal and wonderful, and there were several pictures of Meghan in the same pose, with the papers calling her attention seeking."The most recent is MM signed to for this life and doesn’t deserve privacy whilst Kate is going through a traumatic experience and it’s in her best interest that she is given all the space and privacy she requires. Both articles written by the exact same journalist  | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it?
I would have thought that living one's life included open discussions about the challenges you face and how to overcome them, improve them, or mitigate the harm.
Or is it more "don't talk about stuff that makes us uncomfortable?" that sounds about white
...and why should we just suck it up, for God's sake?"You fucking shouldn't suck it up. Fucks sake. | |||
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"If you ask people of colour, nearly all will say they’ve had racism directed at them, directly or indirectly. It’s never going to be over and done with because racism is a disease that just festers. What Hestor said about Diane Abbot was clearly racist and clearly misogynistic. He’s apologised for ‘causing offence’ but not for what he actually said. Makes me wonder if he belongs in the space of people who feel comfortable saying these kinds of things in public, and privately, because they have a certain platform or power or an audience that condones it - there are no real consequences, or at least haven’t been until quite recently, and I think social media has played a part in outing a lot of it. For what it’s worth, I’m a woman of colour and I routinely have weird comments about where I’m from etc - even having been born here, still always made to feel ‘other’ by people who are white because they can. I applaud the people in these threads who challenge racism in all its guises, it’s an uphill challenge at the best of times - the Tory apologia for what Hestor said has been jaw dropping over this week and makes you realise just how far right that party has swung. Has there been progress, yes of course, but in many ways, it’s still so depressing and I can’t imagine what it must be like for women like Diane Abbot, working in the public eye and still, still, having to put up with such hateful, vile comments. Thank you for sharing and being real. It’s a tough space to be in sometimes but this space is used to talk about all types of life experiences and I’m of the opinion that ours are just as worthy of our conversation.
Actually the treatment of Diane, even Meghan to a lesser extent and of course various other people of colour occupying space in public, is really what makes me worry about whether things are actually improving or not
I’m not sure the MM thing is to a lesser extent and the reporting of the current controversy with the Royals emphasises that quite poignantly
I saw a lot of side by side headlines about Meghan versus Kate and how the media discussed their pregnancies.
Amazingly, when Kate held her belly it was all loving and maternal and wonderful, and there were several pictures of Meghan in the same pose, with the papers calling her attention seeking.
The most recent is MM signed to for this life and doesn’t deserve privacy whilst Kate is going through a traumatic experience and it’s in her best interest that she is given all the space and privacy she requires. Both articles written by the exact same journalist "I am completely and utterly unshocked. | |||
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"If you ask people of colour, nearly all will say they’ve had racism directed at them, directly or indirectly. It’s never going to be over and done with because racism is a disease that just festers. What Hestor said about Diane Abbot was clearly racist and clearly misogynistic. He’s apologised for ‘causing offence’ but not for what he actually said. Makes me wonder if he belongs in the space of people who feel comfortable saying these kinds of things in public, and privately, because they have a certain platform or power or an audience that condones it - there are no real consequences, or at least haven’t been until quite recently, and I think social media has played a part in outing a lot of it. For what it’s worth, I’m a woman of colour and I routinely have weird comments about where I’m from etc - even having been born here, still always made to feel ‘other’ by people who are white because they can. I applaud the people in these threads who challenge racism in all its guises, it’s an uphill challenge at the best of times - the Tory apologia for what Hestor said has been jaw dropping over this week and makes you realise just how far right that party has swung. Has there been progress, yes of course, but in many ways, it’s still so depressing and I can’t imagine what it must be like for women like Diane Abbot, working in the public eye and still, still, having to put up with such hateful, vile comments. Thank you for sharing and being real. It’s a tough space to be in sometimes but this space is used to talk about all types of life experiences and I’m of the opinion that ours are just as worthy of our conversation.
Actually the treatment of Diane, even Meghan to a lesser extent and of course various other people of colour occupying space in public, is really what makes me worry about whether things are actually improving or not
I’m not sure the MM thing is to a lesser extent and the reporting of the current controversy with the Royals emphasises that quite poignantly
I saw a lot of side by side headlines about Meghan versus Kate and how the media discussed their pregnancies.
Amazingly, when Kate held her belly it was all loving and maternal and wonderful, and there were several pictures of Meghan in the same pose, with the papers calling her attention seeking.
The most recent is MM signed to for this life and doesn’t deserve privacy whilst Kate is going through a traumatic experience and it’s in her best interest that she is given all the space and privacy she requires. Both articles written by the exact same journalist "Yep so hypocritical Like when MM spoke up about her miscarriage and people slated her and said it was all attention seeking, that was vile. If kate had done the same she'd be seen as brave etc. | |||
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"I lived in Glasgow for a time and remember rivalries between parts of the town, you'd see shit sprayed up on walls or every now and again people gobbing off at each other. In the same parts of towns you'd see rivalries between neighbouring estates, again usually involving a lot of verbal abuse, some shit daubed on walls in spray and the occasional fight/jumping etc (I see the same where I currently live) and within the estates there would even be rivalries between streets (fuck me, parts of Belfast is still bad for that, some estates are street by street rivalries!) Usually showing in the same way, graffiti, generally shittyness towards each other. There's still pockets of trouble divided along blue/green lines in Scotland, religion through football, the amount of d*unken brawls/attacks that must have caused over the years! These are all countrymen, all from the same places, same colours, same backgrounds approximately and they still hate each other despite being the same race as it were. How does that part of human nature work into racism? Is racism just one more division line? Does there come a point where a person can happily accept that a proportion of the people around them won't like them and the reason doesn't matter? Does it matter if you get punched and spat on by someone because you're a different race more than if you get punched and spat on for supporting celtic instead of rangers, or because you come from the wrong estate? Or you're from the wrong family etc etc... I'm genuinely asking these questions too, not seeking to make small something that matters to you op, but you've started an interesting thread and it's caused me to have a few questions to mull over. Is it still a little bit ingrained in human nature to dislike 'them over there!'? Is it possible to make everyone be good to everyone? Sorry to bang on, but yeah, interesting thread, raises many questions! I fucking hate football. It got old really quickly being asked what team you support before getting battered. Face it, some people are just cunts. "Aye, this really...some people WILL find a reason to hate others. Are some reasons more important than others when you're spitting teeth and bleeding out yer eye socket, Or getting refused a job because of your address one town over though? | |||
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"Under qualified but overly invested here. My son is mixed race and I really worry about the experiences he is going to have that I don't necessarily relate to. Yes, racism exists. No, it's not disappearing." I think mixed race people operate in a unique space in that sense. I’m black and I have a mixed race daughter and her experience with racism is likely to be really different to my own. Her experience of feeling a sense of belonging is likely to be different. And lots of other things. But I think the best thing we can do for our children is listen to them, validate them and give them space to learn about themselves. You can’t protect your kids from racism if they’re growing up here. But you can support them in so many ways that are equally as important. Getting that from my family when I have experienced racism has been so massive in terms of me being able to accept it as part of my reality but not let it impact my value of myself. You got this man. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it?
I would have thought that living one's life included open discussions about the challenges you face and how to overcome them, improve them, or mitigate the harm.
Or is it more "don't talk about stuff that makes us uncomfortable?" that sounds about white
...and why should we just suck it up, for God's sake?
You fucking shouldn't suck it up. Fucks sake."Sorry, my statement shouldn't have become a question...hit question mark instead of exclamation point!! The "just live your life" comment in all its iterations when it comes these discussions really gets on my wick... | |||
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"There is a politics forum. Could we keep the Lounge free of that stuff, please?" Looking forward to you posting this same comment on every forum post in the lounge about a current news issue. Fanks! | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it?
I would have thought that living one's life included open discussions about the challenges you face and how to overcome them, improve them, or mitigate the harm.
Or is it more "don't talk about stuff that makes us uncomfortable?" that sounds about white
...and why should we just suck it up, for God's sake?
You fucking shouldn't suck it up. Fucks sake.
Sorry, my statement shouldn't have become a question...hit question mark instead of exclamation point!!
The "just live your life" comment in all its iterations when it comes these discussions really gets on my wick..."It really screams "I don't suffer from racism, so how dare you complain" It's really shit. I'm sorry. | |||
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"I lived in Glasgow for a time and remember rivalries between parts of the town, you'd see shit sprayed up on walls or every now and again people gobbing off at each other. In the same parts of towns you'd see rivalries between neighbouring estates, again usually involving a lot of verbal abuse, some shit daubed on walls in spray and the occasional fight/jumping etc (I see the same where I currently live) and within the estates there would even be rivalries between streets (fuck me, parts of Belfast is still bad for that, some estates are street by street rivalries!) Usually showing in the same way, graffiti, generally shittyness towards each other. There's still pockets of trouble divided along blue/green lines in Scotland, religion through football, the amount of d*unken brawls/attacks that must have caused over the years! These are all countrymen, all from the same places, same colours, same backgrounds approximately and they still hate each other despite being the same race as it were. How does that part of human nature work into racism? Is racism just one more division line? Does there come a point where a person can happily accept that a proportion of the people around them won't like them and the reason doesn't matter? Does it matter if you get punched and spat on by someone because you're a different race more than if you get punched and spat on for supporting celtic instead of rangers, or because you come from the wrong estate? Or you're from the wrong family etc etc... I'm genuinely asking these questions too, not seeking to make small something that matters to you op, but you've started an interesting thread and it's caused me to have a few questions to mull over. Is it still a little bit ingrained in human nature to dislike 'them over there!'? Is it possible to make everyone be good to everyone? Sorry to bang on, but yeah, interesting thread, raises many questions! I fucking hate football. It got old really quickly being asked what team you support before getting battered. Face it, some people are just cunts.
Aye, this really...some people WILL find a reason to hate others. Are some reasons more important than others when you're spitting teeth and bleeding out yer eye socket, Or getting refused a job because of your address one town over though?
"I'm a black man. It's there for all to see. If I'm beaten up because I'm black, I'm beaten up because I'm ME, not because of something I chose to support or follow. Can you honestly not see the difference, or how it might impact on a more internal and visceral level? Yeah, it matters big-time. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it?
I would have thought that living one's life included open discussions about the challenges you face and how to overcome them, improve them, or mitigate the harm.
Or is it more "don't talk about stuff that makes us uncomfortable?" that sounds about white
...and why should we just suck it up, for God's sake?
You fucking shouldn't suck it up. Fucks sake.
Sorry, my statement shouldn't have become a question...hit question mark instead of exclamation point!!
The "just live your life" comment in all its iterations when it comes these discussions really gets on my wick...
It really screams "I don't suffer from racism, so how dare you complain"
It's really shit. I'm sorry."Swing, some days, the phrase "I'm tired of being tired" really applies... | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it?
I would have thought that living one's life included open discussions about the challenges you face and how to overcome them, improve them, or mitigate the harm.
Or is it more "don't talk about stuff that makes us uncomfortable?" that sounds about white
...and why should we just suck it up, for God's sake?
You fucking shouldn't suck it up. Fucks sake.
Sorry, my statement shouldn't have become a question...hit question mark instead of exclamation point!!
The "just live your life" comment in all its iterations when it comes these discussions really gets on my wick...
It really screams "I don't suffer from racism, so how dare you complain"
It's really shit. I'm sorry.
Swing, some days, the phrase "I'm tired of being tired" really applies...
"Motherfucking preach. | |||
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"If you ask people of colour, nearly all will say they’ve had racism directed at them, directly or indirectly. It’s never going to be over and done with because racism is a disease that just festers. What Hestor said about Diane Abbot was clearly racist and clearly misogynistic. He’s apologised for ‘causing offence’ but not for what he actually said. Makes me wonder if he belongs in the space of people who feel comfortable saying these kinds of things in public, and privately, because they have a certain platform or power or an audience that condones it - there are no real consequences, or at least haven’t been until quite recently, and I think social media has played a part in outing a lot of it. For what it’s worth, I’m a woman of colour and I routinely have weird comments about where I’m from etc - even having been born here, still always made to feel ‘other’ by people who are white because they can. I applaud the people in these threads who challenge racism in all its guises, it’s an uphill challenge at the best of times - the Tory apologia for what Hestor said has been jaw dropping over this week and makes you realise just how far right that party has swung. Has there been progress, yes of course, but in many ways, it’s still so depressing and I can’t imagine what it must be like for women like Diane Abbot, working in the public eye and still, still, having to put up with such hateful, vile comments. " You have put it so very eloquently. This. Very much this. | |||
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"I lived in Glasgow for a time and remember rivalries between parts of the town, you'd see shit sprayed up on walls or every now and again people gobbing off at each other. In the same parts of towns you'd see rivalries between neighbouring estates, again usually involving a lot of verbal abuse, some shit daubed on walls in spray and the occasional fight/jumping etc (I see the same where I currently live) and within the estates there would even be rivalries between streets (fuck me, parts of Belfast is still bad for that, some estates are street by street rivalries!) Usually showing in the same way, graffiti, generally shittyness towards each other. There's still pockets of trouble divided along blue/green lines in Scotland, religion through football, the amount of d*unken brawls/attacks that must have caused over the years! These are all countrymen, all from the same places, same colours, same backgrounds approximately and they still hate each other despite being the same race as it were. How does that part of human nature work into racism? Is racism just one more division line? Does there come a point where a person can happily accept that a proportion of the people around them won't like them and the reason doesn't matter? Does it matter if you get punched and spat on by someone because you're a different race more than if you get punched and spat on for supporting celtic instead of rangers, or because you come from the wrong estate? Or you're from the wrong family etc etc... I'm genuinely asking these questions too, not seeking to make small something that matters to you op, but you've started an interesting thread and it's caused me to have a few questions to mull over. Is it still a little bit ingrained in human nature to dislike 'them over there!'? Is it possible to make everyone be good to everyone? Sorry to bang on, but yeah, interesting thread, raises many questions! I fucking hate football. It got old really quickly being asked what team you support before getting battered. Face it, some people are just cunts.
Aye, this really...some people WILL find a reason to hate others. Are some reasons more important than others when you're spitting teeth and bleeding out yer eye socket, Or getting refused a job because of your address one town over though?
I'm a black man. It's there for all to see. If I'm beaten up because I'm black, I'm beaten up because I'm ME, not because of something I chose to support or follow. Can you honestly not see the difference, or how it might impact on a more internal and visceral level?
Yeah, it matters big-time."I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. | |||
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"I lived in Glasgow for a time and remember rivalries between parts of the town, you'd see shit sprayed up on walls or every now and again people gobbing off at each other. In the same parts of towns you'd see rivalries between neighbouring estates, again usually involving a lot of verbal abuse, some shit daubed on walls in spray and the occasional fight/jumping etc (I see the same where I currently live) and within the estates there would even be rivalries between streets (fuck me, parts of Belfast is still bad for that, some estates are street by street rivalries!) Usually showing in the same way, graffiti, generally shittyness towards each other. There's still pockets of trouble divided along blue/green lines in Scotland, religion through football, the amount of d*unken brawls/attacks that must have caused over the years! These are all countrymen, all from the same places, same colours, same backgrounds approximately and they still hate each other despite being the same race as it were. How does that part of human nature work into racism? Is racism just one more division line? Does there come a point where a person can happily accept that a proportion of the people around them won't like them and the reason doesn't matter? Does it matter if you get punched and spat on by someone because you're a different race more than if you get punched and spat on for supporting celtic instead of rangers, or because you come from the wrong estate? Or you're from the wrong family etc etc... I'm genuinely asking these questions too, not seeking to make small something that matters to you op, but you've started an interesting thread and it's caused me to have a few questions to mull over. Is it still a little bit ingrained in human nature to dislike 'them over there!'? Is it possible to make everyone be good to everyone? Sorry to bang on, but yeah, interesting thread, raises many questions! " None of what you have listed above is comparable to racism in my view. People fight, football fans fight. That’s life unfortunately and unlikely to change. I can’t accept racism is “just life”. | |||
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"Under qualified but overly invested here. My son is mixed race and I really worry about the experiences he is going to have that I don't necessarily relate to. Yes, racism exists. No, it's not disappearing. I think mixed race people operate in a unique space in that sense. I’m black and I have a mixed race daughter and her experience with racism is likely to be really different to my own. Her experience of feeling a sense of belonging is likely to be different. And lots of other things. But I think the best thing we can do for our children is listen to them, validate them and give them space to learn about themselves. You can’t protect your kids from racism if they’re growing up here. But you can support them in so many ways that are equally as important. Getting that from my family when I have experienced racism has been so massive in terms of me being able to accept it as part of my reality but not let it impact my value of myself. You got this man. "My experience as a not-exactly-fully-British white skinned person is that people say things that offend me, not knowing I have recent heritage that is of the variety they are being -ist about. I honestly don't feel like I entirely belong and with the current situation in the way, my "other" bit is more and more in the forefront of my mind. I don't know what the answer is, apart from we have to educate, we have to talk about these matters and we have to all address intolerance and hatred, not pussyfoot around it. The fact Mr. Hester felt it appropriate to say what he did about Diane Abbott and about trains and Indian people, in a workplace setting (so a fairly open forum) is abhorrent and the reaction of the majority of the Conservative party and its leader is also abhorrent. Rishi tries to justify it by saying "I am the first non white PM, and I wasn't offended" but that's BS. The whole thing stinks of horse shit and it's despicable that the people in charge of running the country feel it appropriate to be associated with a person like this. Our GP surgery uses SystmOnline to run the online services and I feel dirty for using the damned thing to order my prescription. I want to boycott his company but it's embedded throughout the NHS and cannot be avoided  | |||
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"Under qualified but overly invested here. My son is mixed race and I really worry about the experiences he is going to have that I don't necessarily relate to. Yes, racism exists. No, it's not disappearing. I think mixed race people operate in a unique space in that sense. I’m black and I have a mixed race daughter and her experience with racism is likely to be really different to my own. Her experience of feeling a sense of belonging is likely to be different. And lots of other things. But I think the best thing we can do for our children is listen to them, validate them and give them space to learn about themselves. You can’t protect your kids from racism if they’re growing up here. But you can support them in so many ways that are equally as important. Getting that from my family when I have experienced racism has been so massive in terms of me being able to accept it as part of my reality but not let it impact my value of myself. You got this man.
My experience as a not-exactly-fully-British white skinned person is that people say things that offend me, not knowing I have recent heritage that is of the variety they are being -ist about. I honestly don't feel like I entirely belong and with the current situation in the way, my "other" bit is more and more in the forefront of my mind.
I don't know what the answer is, apart from we have to educate, we have to talk about these matters and we have to all address intolerance and hatred, not pussyfoot around it.
The fact Mr. Hester felt it appropriate to say what he did about Diane Abbott and about trains and Indian people, in a workplace setting (so a fairly open forum) is abhorrent and the reaction of the majority of the Conservative party and its leader is also abhorrent. Rishi tries to justify it by saying "I am the first non white PM, and I wasn't offended" but that's BS.
The whole thing stinks of horse shit and it's despicable that the people in charge of running the country feel it appropriate to be associated with a person like this. Our GP surgery uses SystmOnline to run the online services and I feel dirty for using the damned thing to order my prescription. I want to boycott his company but it's embedded throughout the NHS and cannot be avoided " | |||
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"I lived in Glasgow for a time and remember rivalries between parts of the town, you'd see shit sprayed up on walls or every now and again people gobbing off at each other. In the same parts of towns you'd see rivalries between neighbouring estates, again usually involving a lot of verbal abuse, some shit daubed on walls in spray and the occasional fight/jumping etc (I see the same where I currently live) and within the estates there would even be rivalries between streets (fuck me, parts of Belfast is still bad for that, some estates are street by street rivalries!) Usually showing in the same way, graffiti, generally shittyness towards each other. There's still pockets of trouble divided along blue/green lines in Scotland, religion through football, the amount of d*unken brawls/attacks that must have caused over the years! These are all countrymen, all from the same places, same colours, same backgrounds approximately and they still hate each other despite being the same race as it were. How does that part of human nature work into racism? Is racism just one more division line? Does there come a point where a person can happily accept that a proportion of the people around them won't like them and the reason doesn't matter? Does it matter if you get punched and spat on by someone because you're a different race more than if you get punched and spat on for supporting celtic instead of rangers, or because you come from the wrong estate? Or you're from the wrong family etc etc... I'm genuinely asking these questions too, not seeking to make small something that matters to you op, but you've started an interesting thread and it's caused me to have a few questions to mull over. Is it still a little bit ingrained in human nature to dislike 'them over there!'? Is it possible to make everyone be good to everyone? Sorry to bang on, but yeah, interesting thread, raises many questions! I fucking hate football. It got old really quickly being asked what team you support before getting battered. Face it, some people are just cunts.
Aye, this really...some people WILL find a reason to hate others. Are some reasons more important than others when you're spitting teeth and bleeding out yer eye socket, Or getting refused a job because of your address one town over though?
I'm a black man. It's there for all to see. If I'm beaten up because I'm black, I'm beaten up because I'm ME, not because of something I chose to support or follow. Can you honestly not see the difference, or how it might impact on a more internal and visceral level?
Yeah, it matters big-time.
I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as.
However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. "Imho, your "argument" is moot. It's real simple - imagine someone walks up to you on the street, and says to his mates, "There's that Moistvonlipwig fella", and they proceed to give you a kicking...as opposed to them seeing you're wearing club colours and giving you a kicking. Which is gonna be more affecting to you? | |||
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" Yeah, it matters big-time. I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. " You can take off your football colours and pretend you don't support X. Pickle cannot remove his skin. He is a black man and will always be. It's completely different to choosing to affiliate yourself with the "colours" of a sports team. If people mistreat him due to being black, they are mistreating him, his very identity and being. Not some external club he voluntarily elects to align himself with. Totally different things. | |||
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" Yeah, it matters big-time. I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. You can take off your football colours and pretend you don't support X. Pickle cannot remove his skin. He is a black man and will always be. It's completely different to choosing to affiliate yourself with the "colours" of a sports team. If people mistreat him due to being black, they are mistreating him, his very identity and being. Not some external club he voluntarily elects to align himself with. Totally different things. " Halle-fucking-lujah!! | |||
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" Imho, your "argument" is moot. It's real simple - imagine someone walks up to you on the street, and says to his mates, "There's that Moistvonlipwig fella", and they proceed to give you a kicking...as opposed to them seeing you're wearing club colours and giving you a kicking. Which is gonna be more affecting to you?" Probably the closest I've ever had is one time I was on a train (coming back from a funeral, not that it matters). I was with my ex, and we had to go through a train station by a major sporting venue, where the national team was playing Australia. The train was crowded, rowdy, and many were intoxicated. It was the kind of situation where funny ha ha banter could have slipped into something a bit more dangerous. I didn't speak for the hour and a half we shared a train with them. Not worth the risk. I can be mute. I shouldn't have to be. | |||
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" Yeah, it matters big-time. I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. You can take off your football colours and pretend you don't support X. Pickle cannot remove his skin. He is a black man and will always be. It's completely different to choosing to affiliate yourself with the "colours" of a sports team. If people mistreat him due to being black, they are mistreating him, his very identity and being. Not some external club he voluntarily elects to align himself with. Totally different things. " People still get abuse for where they were born within the same country, that's not a thing anyone alignes themselves with either nor a choice, you don't pick an accent or cant reasonably change it, Say if a scouser hates a mancunian and does him some mischief or vise versa, is the victim of that mischief better off than if the victim was picked on the basis skin color instead of accent tying one to an area? | |||
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" Yeah, it matters big-time. I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. You can take off your football colours and pretend you don't support X. Pickle cannot remove his skin. He is a black man and will always be. It's completely different to choosing to affiliate yourself with the "colours" of a sports team. If people mistreat him due to being black, they are mistreating him, his very identity and being. Not some external club he voluntarily elects to align himself with. Totally different things. People still get abuse for where they were born within the same country, that's not a thing anyone alignes themselves with either nor a choice, you don't pick an accent or cant reasonably change it, Say if a scouser hates a mancunian and does him some mischief or vise versa, is the victim of that mischief better off than if the victim was picked on the basis skin color instead of accent tying one to an area? " Accents are not the same. They can be changed (otherwise elocution lessons wouldn't be a thing), they can do feigned (see - actors) and you don't have the town of your birth inextricably tattooed on your forehead at birth. No-one would know my place of birth unless I told them. It's completely not the same. A black person cannot hide, change, feign or otherwise obfuscate the fact they are black. Any mistreatment of them due to them being black is to mistreat the very fibre of their being. | |||
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" Yeah, it matters big-time. I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. You can take off your football colours and pretend you don't support X. Pickle cannot remove his skin. He is a black man and will always be. It's completely different to choosing to affiliate yourself with the "colours" of a sports team. If people mistreat him due to being black, they are mistreating him, his very identity and being. Not some external club he voluntarily elects to align himself with. Totally different things. " You said it so much better than me but yep I agree | |||
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" Yeah, it matters big-time. I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. You can take off your football colours and pretend you don't support X. Pickle cannot remove his skin. He is a black man and will always be. It's completely different to choosing to affiliate yourself with the "colours" of a sports team. If people mistreat him due to being black, they are mistreating him, his very identity and being. Not some external club he voluntarily elects to align himself with. Totally different things. People still get abuse for where they were born within the same country, that's not a thing anyone alignes themselves with either nor a choice, you don't pick an accent or cant reasonably change it, Say if a scouser hates a mancunian and does him some mischief or vise versa, is the victim of that mischief better off than if the victim was picked on the basis skin color instead of accent tying one to an area? " Or if they’re fat, if they’re skinny, if they’re ginger, if they’ve got sticky out teeth, a big nose, big ears, I could go on. Still no. Not the same | |||
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" Yeah, it matters big-time. I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. You can take off your football colours and pretend you don't support X. Pickle cannot remove his skin. He is a black man and will always be. It's completely different to choosing to affiliate yourself with the "colours" of a sports team. If people mistreat him due to being black, they are mistreating him, his very identity and being. Not some external club he voluntarily elects to align himself with. Totally different things. People still get abuse for where they were born within the same country, that's not a thing anyone alignes themselves with either nor a choice, you don't pick an accent or cant reasonably change it, Say if a scouser hates a mancunian and does him some mischief or vise versa, is the victim of that mischief better off than if the victim was picked on the basis skin color instead of accent tying one to an area? " Forgive me if I'm off-base here, but it's been explained and explained and explained to you - your responses almost come across as if you DON'T want to understand? | |||
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" Accents are not the same. They can be changed (otherwise elocution lessons wouldn't be a thing), they can do feigned (see - actors) and you don't have the town of your birth inextricably tattooed on your forehead at birth. No-one would know my place of birth unless I told them. It's completely not the same. A black person cannot hide, change, feign or otherwise obfuscate the fact they are black. Any mistreatment of them due to them being black is to mistreat the very fibre of their being. " Whilst you may be correct, this might be a dangerous path to go down. Muslim women and Jewish and Sikh men and are signalled (explicitly or implicitly) to remove their head coverings. People will destroy their identity and heritage to hide who they are. Gay men will pretend to be in relationships with women. Losing your identity to fit in should never be a plan A. You might mean well with that statement, but it could, in the wrong hands, imply a subtle instruction to comply. A Muslim woman who chooses to wear a hijab is just as obviously "other" (in a white society) as a black man. It's no comfort to her that she can choose to remove her hijab. That just makes her daily decision more agonising. Of course black people are completely correct in that they are "permanently trapped" in their skin with "no choice". It just gets a little hairy when people imply that things are better for people who could choose to hide their identities. Which is where Whoopie Goldberg and Diane Abbott came unstuck. People don't necessarily want to remove their "costumes". | |||
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"I lived in Glasgow for a time and remember rivalries between parts of the town, you'd see shit sprayed up on walls or every now and again people gobbing off at each other. In the same parts of towns you'd see rivalries between neighbouring estates, again usually involving a lot of verbal abuse, some shit daubed on walls in spray and the occasional fight/jumping etc (I see the same where I currently live) and within the estates there would even be rivalries between streets (fuck me, parts of Belfast is still bad for that, some estates are street by street rivalries!) Usually showing in the same way, graffiti, generally shittyness towards each other. There's still pockets of trouble divided along blue/green lines in Scotland, religion through football, the amount of d*unken brawls/attacks that must have caused over the years! These are all countrymen, all from the same places, same colours, same backgrounds approximately and they still hate each other despite being the same race as it were. How does that part of human nature work into racism? Is racism just one more division line? Does there come a point where a person can happily accept that a proportion of the people around them won't like them and the reason doesn't matter? Does it matter if you get punched and spat on by someone because you're a different race more than if you get punched and spat on for supporting celtic instead of rangers, or because you come from the wrong estate? Or you're from the wrong family etc etc... I'm genuinely asking these questions too, not seeking to make small something that matters to you op, but you've started an interesting thread and it's caused me to have a few questions to mull over. Is it still a little bit ingrained in human nature to dislike 'them over there!'? Is it possible to make everyone be good to everyone? Sorry to bang on, but yeah, interesting thread, raises many questions! I fucking hate football. It got old really quickly being asked what team you support before getting battered. Face it, some people are just cunts.
Aye, this really...some people WILL find a reason to hate others. Are some reasons more important than others when you're spitting teeth and bleeding out yer eye socket, Or getting refused a job because of your address one town over though?
I'm a black man. It's there for all to see. If I'm beaten up because I'm black, I'm beaten up because I'm ME, not because of something I chose to support or follow. Can you honestly not see the difference, or how it might impact on a more internal and visceral level?
Yeah, it matters big-time."I can indeed see the difference my friend and could not possibly put myself in your shoes to experience what you have. However I can empathise with just having the shit kicked out of you as so often happened to me growing up. My comment about the teams and the sectarian horseshit didn't actually specify that often, in Scotland, you would be beaten up by a random person, or persons, just because they didn't know you. This, of course, does not compare to the abuse over one's skin colour, it just reiterates that people can be cunts. And again, I didn't support any team, never have, never will, so could never be described as a football hooligan. I was just a kid who experienced a lot of uncalled for violence growing up. | |||
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"When it feels like you’re getting messages that you don’t belong. Yes this is a thread about race in Britain. This Diane Abbott stuff and more so the response from powerful people and online has really shaken and triggered (yes I’m a snowflake that’s experienced racism and what?) me. Anyway- do we think we’re actually moving forward re: racism in Britain? If you don’t like talking about race on fab, as always you can skip. There’s literally loads of threads up today not about this. "I think there is definitely a big improvement especially compared to my parents and grandparents time. Although I have not been immune to it I have experienced very very little. In fact the most racist people I have encountered are some of my black colleagues | |||
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" Accents are not the same. They can be changed (otherwise elocution lessons wouldn't be a thing), they can do feigned (see - actors) and you don't have the town of your birth inextricably tattooed on your forehead at birth. No-one would know my place of birth unless I told them. It's completely not the same. A black person cannot hide, change, feign or otherwise obfuscate the fact they are black. Any mistreatment of them due to them being black is to mistreat the very fibre of their being. Whilst you may be correct, this might be a dangerous path to go down. Muslim women and Jewish and Sikh men and are signalled (explicitly or implicitly) to remove their head coverings. People will destroy their identity and heritage to hide who they are. Gay men will pretend to be in relationships with women. Losing your identity to fit in should never be a plan A. You might mean well with that statement, but it could, in the wrong hands, imply a subtle instruction to comply. A Muslim woman who chooses to wear a hijab is just as obviously "other" (in a white society) as a black man. It's no comfort to her that she can choose to remove her hijab. That just makes her daily decision more agonising. Of course black people are completely correct in that they are "permanently trapped" in their skin with "no choice". It just gets a little hairy when people imply that things are better for people who could choose to hide their identities. Which is where Whoopie Goldberg and Diane Abbott came unstuck. People don't necessarily want to remove their "costumes"." I haven't for a second suggested Muslim women should remove hijab or Jewish people remove a kippah or head covering or wig. I have said that accents and football affiliation are not in any way the same as skin colour. I have pointed out accents can and do change and can easily be faked if desired. One's place of birth is similarly not evident the second you meet or see someone. I agree that religious hatred is abhorrent and of course no-one should feel that they have to hide this aspect of themselves. That said, plenty of Muslim women do not wear hijab and plenty of Jewish people do not wear any outward sign of their Jewishness. Skin colour is one of the few fundamentals that are completely and utterly un-hideable. To be clear, I want a world where everyone can be themselves and where there is no intolerance, hate or prejudice for any reason. | |||
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" I think there is definitely a big improvement especially compared to my parents and grandparents time. Although I have not been immune to it I have experienced very very little." Completely agreed
" In fact the most racist people I have encountered are some of my black colleagues" Different experience: different country of origin, different culture. A strong hierarchy of humanity, based upon skin colour, ancestry and religion. Bigotry alive and kicking, to put Tommy Robinson to shame. | |||
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"I lived in Glasgow for a time and remember rivalries between parts of the town, you'd see shit sprayed up on walls or every now and again people gobbing off at each other. In the same parts of towns you'd see rivalries between neighbouring estates, again usually involving a lot of verbal abuse, some shit daubed on walls in spray and the occasional fight/jumping etc (I see the same where I currently live) and within the estates there would even be rivalries between streets (fuck me, parts of Belfast is still bad for that, some estates are street by street rivalries!) Usually showing in the same way, graffiti, generally shittyness towards each other. There's still pockets of trouble divided along blue/green lines in Scotland, religion through football, the amount of d*unken brawls/attacks that must have caused over the years! These are all countrymen, all from the same places, same colours, same backgrounds approximately and they still hate each other despite being the same race as it were. How does that part of human nature work into racism? Is racism just one more division line? Does there come a point where a person can happily accept that a proportion of the people around them won't like them and the reason doesn't matter? Does it matter if you get punched and spat on by someone because you're a different race more than if you get punched and spat on for supporting celtic instead of rangers, or because you come from the wrong estate? Or you're from the wrong family etc etc... I'm genuinely asking these questions too, not seeking to make small something that matters to you op, but you've started an interesting thread and it's caused me to have a few questions to mull over. Is it still a little bit ingrained in human nature to dislike 'them over there!'? Is it possible to make everyone be good to everyone? Sorry to bang on, but yeah, interesting thread, raises many questions! I fucking hate football. It got old really quickly being asked what team you support before getting battered. Face it, some people are just cunts.
Aye, this really...some people WILL find a reason to hate others. Are some reasons more important than others when you're spitting teeth and bleeding out yer eye socket, Or getting refused a job because of your address one town over though?
I'm a black man. It's there for all to see. If I'm beaten up because I'm black, I'm beaten up because I'm ME, not because of something I chose to support or follow. Can you honestly not see the difference, or how it might impact on a more internal and visceral level?
Yeah, it matters big-time.
I can indeed see the difference my friend and could not possibly put myself in your shoes to experience what you have.
However I can empathise with just having the shit kicked out of you as so often happened to me growing up. My comment about the teams and the sectarian horseshit didn't actually specify that often, in Scotland, you would be beaten up by a random person, or persons, just because they didn't know you.
This, of course, does not compare to the abuse over one's skin colour, it just reiterates that people can be cunts.
And again, I didn't support any team, never have, never will, so could never be described as a football hooligan.
I was just a kid who experienced a lot of uncalled for violence growing up.
"It's OK, I'm not trying to play Top Trumps - I just wanted it understood that there's a distinct contrast (as you obviously know from your own experience - WTF!!) Pardon the pun, but especially afterwards in reflection, they hit you differently... | |||
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" I haven't for a second suggested Muslim women should remove hijab or Jewish people remove a kippah or head covering or wig. " No you haven't. Nor is there any suggestion that you would - you genuinely seem lovely. " That said, plenty of Muslim women do not wear hijab and plenty of Jewish people do not wear any outward sign of their Jewishness. Skin colour is one of the few fundamentals that are completely and utterly un-hideable. " You are 100% correct. There is no question there. Here's the thing. When someone says (with the best intentions) "but a X could present as "normal" if they just Y, unlike a Z, who cannot change", then it could (and you, personally, don't), *possibly* imply three things: 1. The person with an immutable feature wants to change it. 2. The person who chooses a feature should change it. 3. The feature itself is the/a problem To be crystal clear: this is NOT aimed at you. | |||
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" I haven't for a second suggested Muslim women should remove hijab or Jewish people remove a kippah or head covering or wig. No you haven't. Nor is there any suggestion that you would - you genuinely seem lovely. That said, plenty of Muslim women do not wear hijab and plenty of Jewish people do not wear any outward sign of their Jewishness. Skin colour is one of the few fundamentals that are completely and utterly un-hideable. You are 100% correct. There is no question there. Here's the thing. When someone says (with the best intentions) "but a X could present as "normal" if they just Y, unlike a Z, who cannot change", then it could (and you, personally, don't), *possibly* imply three things: 1. The person with an immutable feature wants to change it. 2. The person who chooses a feature should change it. 3. The feature itself is the/a problem To be crystal clear: this is NOT aimed at you. " I completely understand and accept what you are saying. I really do. I just wanted to get across to the earlier poster that skin colour and accents or choice of football affiliation are not the same, they aren't comparable. If you strip everyone naked and place them silently in a room, no-one will guess your place of birth, your home town, your accent or even your religion. They will immediately see your skin colour. I'm a wheelchair user but I can stand, so even that aspect of my identity could be (very temporarily) removed*. *Of course, that is not the case for all wheelchair users/disabled people. I think we need to be very careful not to go with whataboutery and validate the feelings and experiences of the OP and other thread contributors, as black people. | |||
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" Yeah, it matters big-time. I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. You can take off your football colours and pretend you don't support X. Pickle cannot remove his skin. He is a black man and will always be. It's completely different to choosing to affiliate yourself with the "colours" of a sports team. If people mistreat him due to being black, they are mistreating him, his very identity and being. Not some external club he voluntarily elects to align himself with. Totally different things. People still get abuse for where they were born within the same country, that's not a thing anyone alignes themselves with either nor a choice, you don't pick an accent or cant reasonably change it, Say if a scouser hates a mancunian and does him some mischief or vise versa, is the victim of that mischief better off than if the victim was picked on the basis skin color instead of accent tying one to an area? Accents are not the same. They can be changed (otherwise elocution lessons wouldn't be a thing), they can do feigned (see - actors) and you don't have the town of your birth inextricably tattooed on your forehead at birth. No-one would know my place of birth unless I told them. It's completely not the same. A black person cannot hide, change, feign or otherwise obfuscate the fact they are black. Any mistreatment of them due to them being black is to mistreat the very fibre of their being. " So folk should just change their accent and hide where you're from and your ok to avoid getting a kicking? Elocution lessons ain't cheap, more expensive than making a healthy meal for sure. I don't think people can afford Elocution lessons en masse, they'll just have to keep putting up with whatever, but at least it's not because af their color, just because they're poor and can't afford Elocution lessons, that'll ease the pain of missing teeth and quell the fear of going into the town for them. People like thay don't know how easy they have it, they can just have elocution lessons until their problems disappear
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" Yeah, it matters big-time. I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. You can take off your football colours and pretend you don't support X. Pickle cannot remove his skin. He is a black man and will always be. It's completely different to choosing to affiliate yourself with the "colours" of a sports team. If people mistreat him due to being black, they are mistreating him, his very identity and being. Not some external club he voluntarily elects to align himself with. Totally different things. " Honestly the west of scotland issue is more than football and the colour of top you wear. Its bigotry and sectarianism. Its people marching past your house every saturday playing songs about it and in relatively recent history spitting on a priest outside his church during one of those marches. Its what school you went to and what surname you might have and did you go to mass on Sunday. It’s not as simple as wear a plain top after the football. However its also come a long way in improving and yes its not as visible as racism. And i dont think because we have to deal with one we should deal with the other. Its not a race to the bottom and all types of bigotry need to be discussed and eradicated. | |||
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" Yeah, it matters big-time. I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. You can take off your football colours and pretend you don't support X. Pickle cannot remove his skin. He is a black man and will always be. It's completely different to choosing to affiliate yourself with the "colours" of a sports team. If people mistreat him due to being black, they are mistreating him, his very identity and being. Not some external club he voluntarily elects to align himself with. Totally different things. Honestly the west of scotland issue is more than football and the colour of top you wear. Its bigotry and sectarianism. Its people marching past your house every saturday playing songs about it and in relatively recent history spitting on a priest outside his church during one of those marches. Its what school you went to and what surname you might have and did you go to mass on Sunday. It’s not as simple as wear a plain top after the football. However its also come a long way in improving and yes its not as visible as racism. And i dont think because we have to deal with one we should deal with the other. Its not a race to the bottom and all types of bigotry need to be discussed and eradicated. " The anti- catholic anti- irish bigotry is getting worse in all of scotland | |||
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"Is racism not just another form of bullying. To me it's no diferant to getting picked on for warning the wrong brand of trainers, or like some one said supporting a different football team, or being a difernt sex. So surly the question is how do you stop bullying " You can change your trainers and keep quiet about your football team. How do you change race? | |||
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"Is racism not just another form of bullying. To me it's no diferant to getting picked on for warning the wrong brand of trainers, or like some one said supporting a different football team, or being a difernt sex. So surly the question is how do you stop bullying You can change your trainers and keep quiet about your football team. How do you change race? " Would racism be ok then when science finds an easy way to change your skin colour? | |||
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"Is racism not just another form of bullying. To me it's no diferant to getting picked on for warning the wrong brand of trainers, or like some one said supporting a different football team, or being a difernt sex. So surly the question is how do you stop bullying You can change your trainers and keep quiet about your football team. How do you change race? " Bulling is bulling once a bully always a bully in my book. If you change your not being you so you being bullied anyway, and if they leave you alone the move twosome one else. Look at family valance and men that control women it bullying RIGHT.. | |||
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"Is racism not just another form of bullying. To me it's no diferant to getting picked on for warning the wrong brand of trainers, or like some one said supporting a different football team, or being a difernt sex. So surly the question is how do you stop bullying You can change your trainers and keep quiet about your football team. How do you change race? Bulling is bulling once a bully always a bully in my book. If you change your not being you so you being bullied anyway, and if they leave you alone the move twosome one else. Look at family valance and men that control women it bullying RIGHT.." Not saying racism isn’t bullying but the problem is the word doesn’t feel as serious as racism but I know what you are saying. | |||
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"Is racism not just another form of bullying. To me it's no diferant to getting picked on for warning the wrong brand of trainers, or like some one said supporting a different football team, or being a difernt sex. So surly the question is how do you stop bullying " I think you fundamentally do not understand the way that bullying and racism (and sexism, homophobia, etc.) are different to each other. Bullying is one person picking on another for an arbitrary reason. Racism (and the others) is the systemic oppression and disadvantaging of a whole group of people based on a common characteristic. | |||
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"Is racism not just another form of bullying. To me it's no diferant to getting picked on for warning the wrong brand of trainers, or like some one said supporting a different football team, or being a difernt sex. So surly the question is how do you stop bullying I think you fundamentally do not understand the way that bullying and racism (and sexism, homophobia, etc.) are different to each other. Bullying is one person picking on another for an arbitrary reason. Racism (and the others) is the systemic oppression and disadvantaging of a whole group of people based on a common characteristic." So an individual treating someone badly on grounds of race isn't racism, unless there is systemic oppression involved? | |||
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" I think you fundamentally do not understand the way that bullying and racism (and sexism, homophobia, etc.) are different to each other. Bullying is one person picking on another for an arbitrary reason. Racism (and the others) is the systemic oppression and disadvantaging of a whole group of people based on a common characteristic." Exactly. In the same way that murder and violence and abuse are different. You can't just oversimplify all of those into one term "abuse", just because all might mostly be covered by that term. Moreover, "once a bully, always a bully" is a particularly unhelpful way of looking at people. When bullies are actually confronted by the humanity and suffering of their victims, change is absolutely possible, especially at younger age. We should always, always prioritise rehabilitation and embrace those who change (*genuinely*, but even partially). That is how you change the world. | |||
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" So an individual treating someone badly on grounds of race isn't racism, unless there is systemic oppression involved?" It is, and even white British people in Britain can be subjected to racism, individually or as a whole. Try working as a white Brit (or non-Japanese) in a Japanese company. Or Indian company. | |||
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"Is racism not just another form of bullying. To me it's no diferant to getting picked on for warning the wrong brand of trainers, or like some one said supporting a different football team, or being a difernt sex. So surly the question is how do you stop bullying I think you fundamentally do not understand the way that bullying and racism (and sexism, homophobia, etc.) are different to each other. Bullying is one person picking on another for an arbitrary reason. Racism (and the others) is the systemic oppression and disadvantaging of a whole group of people based on a common characteristic. So an individual treating someone badly on grounds of race isn't racism, unless there is systemic oppression involved?" No, that is part of systemic racism. Systemic racism can be carried out by individuals, but it is a society-wide problem. In the same way if I go for a job as a woman and someone doesn't pick me because I'm more likely to take time off to have children, that is systemic sexism performed by an individual person. | |||
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" As a side note, someone wanting to date only people from a specific race because they are the ones who are aesthetically appealing to them isn't racism either." But it's usually rooted in racism and colonialism. | |||
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" As a side note, someone wanting to date only people from a specific race because they are the ones who are aesthetically appealing to them isn't racism either. But it's usually rooted in racism and colonialism." Careful there. Quite a few black female profiles in our local feed are always asking for black men only. Extrapolating, it might not be so clear cut. | |||
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" As a side note, someone wanting to date only people from a specific race because they are the ones who are aesthetically appealing to them isn't racism either. But it's usually rooted in racism and colonialism." How do you know? I know or lot of Indian guys and girls who like only Indians. I don't see it any different from someone only being attracted to tall people. The factors contributing to aesthetic appeal of humans is an area that we don't have enough knowledge about. We shouldn't be running into any conclusions without any knowledge. There are people who wouldn't date someone from a specific race because of racism(judging their character). That's racism. But I would not do anything to force them to change their opinions either. An individual's right to who one wants to have sex with is much more important than social justice. | |||
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"Is racism not just another form of bullying. To me it's no diferant to getting picked on for warning the wrong brand of trainers, or like some one said supporting a different football team, or being a difernt sex. So surly the question is how do you stop bullying I think you fundamentally do not understand the way that bullying and racism (and sexism, homophobia, etc.) are different to each other. Bullying is one person picking on another for an arbitrary reason. Racism (and the others) is the systemic oppression and disadvantaging of a whole group of people based on a common characteristic. So an individual treating someone badly on grounds of race isn't racism, unless there is systemic oppression involved? No, that is part of systemic racism. Systemic racism can be carried out by individuals, but it is a society-wide problem. In the same way if I go for a job as a woman and someone doesn't pick me because I'm more likely to take time off to have children, that is systemic sexism performed by an individual person." Racism can exist without being part of systemic racism. Individuals may have hatred towards a race even if that race is not the one that's considered systematically oppressed. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it?
I would have thought that living one's life included open discussions about the challenges you face and how to overcome them, improve them, or mitigate the harm.
Or is it more "don't talk about stuff that makes us uncomfortable?" that sounds about white
...and why should we just suck it up, for God's sake?
You fucking shouldn't suck it up. Fucks sake.
Sorry, my statement shouldn't have become a question...hit question mark instead of exclamation point!!
The "just live your life" comment in all its iterations when it comes these discussions really gets on my wick...
It really screams "I don't suffer from racism, so how dare you complain"
It's really shit. I'm sorry."If we’re being completely honest, it’s part of a process of silencing. | |||
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"The problem is Diane Abbott is a terrible example, she has done so much worthy of genuine criticism but anything said about it is labled racist. ^^^^^^ very much this. Racism in life is everywhere and always will be just live your life big pickle and let othered fester in theirs. T This idea that I don’t live my life is idek. Am I not allowed to be angered by racism? Or complain about it?
I would have thought that living one's life included open discussions about the challenges you face and how to overcome them, improve them, or mitigate the harm.
Or is it more "don't talk about stuff that makes us uncomfortable?" that sounds about white
...and why should we just suck it up, for God's sake?
You fucking shouldn't suck it up. Fucks sake.
Sorry, my statement shouldn't have become a question...hit question mark instead of exclamation point!!
The "just live your life" comment in all its iterations when it comes these discussions really gets on my wick...
It really screams "I don't suffer from racism, so how dare you complain"
It's really shit. I'm sorry.
If we’re being completely honest, it’s part of a process of silencing. "which is a part of the racism. | |||
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" Yeah, it matters big-time. I might argue you'd be beaten up because of what someone thinks you are, because you're not (I dare say) 'a foreigner' or whatever they might see you as. However, fair point, I'll weigh it in with the rest of my thoughts, thankyou. You can take off your football colours and pretend you don't support X. Pickle cannot remove his skin. He is a black man and will always be. It's completely different to choosing to affiliate yourself with the "colours" of a sports team. If people mistreat him due to being black, they are mistreating him, his very identity and being. Not some external club he voluntarily elects to align himself with. Totally different things. " You get it | |||
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" As a side note, someone wanting to date only people from a specific race because they are the ones who are aesthetically appealing to them isn't racism either. But it's usually rooted in racism and colonialism. How do you know? I know or lot of Indian guys and girls who like only Indians. I don't see it any different from someone only being attracted to tall people. The factors contributing to aesthetic appeal of humans is an area that we don't have enough knowledge about. We shouldn't be running into any conclusions without any knowledge. There are people who wouldn't date someone from a specific race because of racism(judging their character). That's racism. But I would not do anything to force them to change their opinions either. An individual's right to who one wants to have sex with is much more important than social justice." Some anthropologists argue that tribalism and a preference to mate with those of the same tribe (ie race) is a deep rooted survivalist natural selection process to protect your genes. Of course the counter argument is that creates a decreasing genepool that is dangerous long term so there is a need to introduce outside genes from time-to-time. | |||
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" As a side note, someone wanting to date only people from a specific race because they are the ones who are aesthetically appealing to them isn't racism either. But it's usually rooted in racism and colonialism. How do you know? I know or lot of Indian guys and girls who like only Indians. I don't see it any different from someone only being attracted to tall people. The factors contributing to aesthetic appeal of humans is an area that we don't have enough knowledge about. We shouldn't be running into any conclusions without any knowledge. There are people who wouldn't date someone from a specific race because of racism(judging their character). That's racism. But I would not do anything to force them to change their opinions either. An individual's right to who one wants to have sex with is much more important than social justice. Some anthropologists argue that tribalism and a preference to mate with those of the same tribe (ie race) is a deep rooted survivalist natural selection process to protect your genes. Of course the counter argument is that creates a decreasing genepool that is dangerous long term so there is a need to introduce outside genes from time-to-time." I personally don’t think liking people from your own racial group is problematic. I think it is learned though, to only find attraction within that group and to base a lack of attraction to an entire racial group on physical characteristics, assumed collective characteristics or other stereotypes is racist. It’s a pointless discussion. I don’t want to sleep with a racist as much as they don’t want to sleep with me. And they’re not going to accept that they could have a racist thought in their head. So gotta pick your battles. Sexual racism is probably the thing that I’m least concerned about when it comes to my experience as a Black person in Britain | |||
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" As a side note, someone wanting to date only people from a specific race because they are the ones who are aesthetically appealing to them isn't racism either. But it's usually rooted in racism and colonialism. How do you know? I know or lot of Indian guys and girls who like only Indians. I don't see it any different from someone only being attracted to tall people. The factors contributing to aesthetic appeal of humans is an area that we don't have enough knowledge about. We shouldn't be running into any conclusions without any knowledge. There are people who wouldn't date someone from a specific race because of racism(judging their character). That's racism. But I would not do anything to force them to change their opinions either. An individual's right to who one wants to have sex with is much more important than social justice. Some anthropologists argue that tribalism and a preference to mate with those of the same tribe (ie race) is a deep rooted survivalist natural selection process to protect your genes. Of course the counter argument is that creates a decreasing genepool that is dangerous long term so there is a need to introduce outside genes from time-to-time. I personally don’t think liking people from your own racial group is problematic. I think it is learned though, to only find attraction within that group and to base a lack of attraction to an entire racial group on physical characteristics, assumed collective characteristics or other stereotypes is racist. It’s a pointless discussion. I don’t want to sleep with a racist as much as they don’t want to sleep with me. And they’re not going to accept that they could have a racist thought in their head. So gotta pick your battles. Sexual racism is probably the thing that I’m least concerned about when it comes to my experience as a Black person in Britain" Not wanting to sleep with someone because of a physical characteristic is not fucking racist, its not liking a physical characteristic, its really that simple. BTW, when are you gonna call your friend out for the 'racist' comment about 'whites' further up. Either you fucking hate racism or you're a huge hypocrit aswell as race baiter. | |||
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" As a side note, someone wanting to date only people from a specific race because they are the ones who are aesthetically appealing to them isn't racism either. But it's usually rooted in racism and colonialism. How do you know? I know or lot of Indian guys and girls who like only Indians. I don't see it any different from someone only being attracted to tall people. The factors contributing to aesthetic appeal of humans is an area that we don't have enough knowledge about. We shouldn't be running into any conclusions without any knowledge. There are people who wouldn't date someone from a specific race because of racism(judging their character). That's racism. But I would not do anything to force them to change their opinions either. An individual's right to who one wants to have sex with is much more important than social justice. Some anthropologists argue that tribalism and a preference to mate with those of the same tribe (ie race) is a deep rooted survivalist natural selection process to protect your genes. Of course the counter argument is that creates a decreasing genepool that is dangerous long term so there is a need to introduce outside genes from time-to-time. I personally don’t think liking people from your own racial group is problematic. I think it is learned though, to only find attraction within that group and to base a lack of attraction to an entire racial group on physical characteristics, assumed collective characteristics or other stereotypes is racist. It’s a pointless discussion. I don’t want to sleep with a racist as much as they don’t want to sleep with me. And they’re not going to accept that they could have a racist thought in their head. So gotta pick your battles. Sexual racism is probably the thing that I’m least concerned about when it comes to my experience as a Black person in Britain Not wanting to sleep with someone because of a physical characteristic is not fucking racist, its not liking a physical characteristic, its really that simple. BTW, when are you gonna call your friend out for the 'racist' comment about 'whites' further up. Either you fucking hate racism or you're a huge hypocrit aswell as race baiter. " You can call me what you like. I do hate racism and I frankly don’t care whether you believe that or not. By the way, I think you’re not quite understanding the point I was making but it doesn’t matter really. Like I said- I don’t care  | |||
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"Race baiter- I’ll wear that one with pride. Sorry that the snowflakes on the forums are so upset that I’m not going to stop talking about race. Just as others don’t stop talking about misogyny or other forms of oppression that *they* experience. Such a weak attempt to silence. Fortunately, I’m built different I guess. " No one is trying to 'silence' you. I will however call out when I see you having plenty to say about racism and ignore certain others being racist. For what reason would you do that? I think I know, I think you also know, if you choose to look in the mirror for long enough. My opinion, yourself and people like you do way more harm than good when it comes to race relations. | |||
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" As a side note, someone wanting to date only people from a specific race because they are the ones who are aesthetically appealing to them isn't racism either. But it's usually rooted in racism and colonialism. How do you know? I know or lot of Indian guys and girls who like only Indians. I don't see it any different from someone only being attracted to tall people. The factors contributing to aesthetic appeal of humans is an area that we don't have enough knowledge about. We shouldn't be running into any conclusions without any knowledge. There are people who wouldn't date someone from a specific race because of racism(judging their character). That's racism. But I would not do anything to force them to change their opinions either. An individual's right to who one wants to have sex with is much more important than social justice. Some anthropologists argue that tribalism and a preference to mate with those of the same tribe (ie race) is a deep rooted survivalist natural selection process to protect your genes. Of course the counter argument is that creates a decreasing genepool that is dangerous long term so there is a need to introduce outside genes from time-to-time." I wouldn't be surprised if it is indeed a matter of survivalism to protect one's genes. But not matter what the reason is, I don't think we should impose social justice on one's sexual preferences. Let people date and have sex with whoever they want. No judgement needed there. | |||
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"Race baiter- I’ll wear that one with pride. Sorry that the snowflakes on the forums are so upset that I’m not going to stop talking about race. Just as others don’t stop talking about misogyny or other forms of oppression that *they* experience. Such a weak attempt to silence. Fortunately, I’m built different I guess. No one is trying to 'silence' you. I will however call out when I see you having plenty to say about racism and ignore certain others being racist. For what reason would you do that? I think I know, I think you also know, if you choose to look in the mirror for long enough. My opinion, yourself and people like you do way more harm than good when it comes to race relations. " If you have seen racism on this thread you should report it to admin. | |||
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"Race baiter- I’ll wear that one with pride. Sorry that the snowflakes on the forums are so upset that I’m not going to stop talking about race. Just as others don’t stop talking about misogyny or other forms of oppression that *they* experience. Such a weak attempt to silence. Fortunately, I’m built different I guess. No one is trying to 'silence' you. I will however call out when I see you having plenty to say about racism and ignore certain others being racist. For what reason would you do that? I think I know, I think you also know, if you choose to look in the mirror for long enough. My opinion, yourself and people like you do way more harm than good when it comes to race relations. If you have seen racism on this thread you should report it to admin." I've seen something that if was said against another race, there would be claims of racism. Guaranteed. Go back, read the thread and decide for yourself. Or decide that you can't be racist against white people  | |||
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"Race baiter- I’ll wear that one with pride. Sorry that the snowflakes on the forums are so upset that I’m not going to stop talking about race. Just as others don’t stop talking about misogyny or other forms of oppression that *they* experience. Such a weak attempt to silence. Fortunately, I’m built different I guess. No one is trying to 'silence' you. I will however call out when I see you having plenty to say about racism and ignore certain others being racist. For what reason would you do that? I think I know, I think you also know, if you choose to look in the mirror for long enough. My opinion, yourself and people like you do way more harm than good when it comes to race relations. " More harm than good. Ok thank you for that assessment | |||
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"its disappointing that this was moved to the politics forum "But not surprising | |||
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"its disappointing that this was moved to the politics forum "I was pretty peeved that it was moved. Discussions around how racism is impacting people is a-political. The OP cites a contemporary example of a politician but asks a far wider reaching question. | |||
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"Race baiter- I’ll wear that one with pride. Sorry that the snowflakes on the forums are so upset that I’m not going to stop talking about race. Just as others don’t stop talking about misogyny or other forms of oppression that *they* experience. Such a weak attempt to silence. Fortunately, I’m built different I guess. " | |||
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |||
"Race baiter- I’ll wear that one with pride. Sorry that the snowflakes on the forums are so upset that I’m not going to stop talking about race. Just as others don’t stop talking about misogyny or other forms of oppression that *they* experience. Such a weak attempt to silence. Fortunately, I’m built different I guess. " | |||
Reply privately (thread closed by moderator) | |||
