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Michael Jackson
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Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m not particularly an advocate of cancel culture but I can’t help feeling uncomfortable about his songs being played, and isn’t there also a musical based on his songs?. Is the argument that the songs should stand on their own, and his alleged behaviour shouldn’t overshadow his artistry, otherwise we’d have to cancel everything?, I guess. Interested in other people’s views |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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I think it's an interesting topic to be honest. At what point is it acceptable to separate the art from the artist and at what point should they not be promoted at all? I think the answer is that everyone has different thresholds with what they can and can't accept and we should probably respect their choices for those reasons  |
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By *irthandgirthMan 46 weeks ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m not particularly an advocate of cancel culture but I can’t help feeling uncomfortable about his songs being played, and isn’t there also a musical based on his songs?. Is the argument that the songs should stand on their own, and his alleged behaviour shouldn’t overshadow his artistry, otherwise we’d have to cancel everything?, I guess. Interested in other people’s views"
You are entirely free to switch off or listen to any artist you choose based on your own morality. However, I would expect backlash if I started to tell everyone what to listen to or not to listen to based on my beliefs. |
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Stephen Fry, who is a fan of composer Richard Wagner, who is a known Nazi sympathiser and anti-semite. Fry talks about the need to celebrate the genius but equally use his exposure to talk about why Wagner is misguided on his belief about Jewish people.
In today's Cancel Culture some people think that closets like Rock Hudson and Freddy Mercury should be cancelled. But it was due to their (difficult!) political choices that allowed them to be famous, now celebrated as gay icons.
It's complicated. |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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It does make me uncomfortable too. It's not as easy as say R Kelly whose music is shit and there was evidence and he got convicted. Can't yo fully ever separate the artist from the art? |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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It’s an interesting point.
Salvador Dali was an avowed facist yet how work has hung on almost every students wall since the 60s. Does that make his art less interesting? |
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"It does make me uncomfortable too. It's not as easy as say R Kelly whose music is shit and there was evidence and he got convicted. Can't yo fully ever separate the artist from the art? "
I liked his music  . I did remove it all from my Spotify though |
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By *irthandgirthMan 46 weeks ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"Stephen Fry, who is a fan of composer Richard Wagner, who is a known Nazi sympathiser and anti-semite. Fry talks about the need to celebrate the genius but equally use his exposure to talk about why Wagner is misguided on his belief about Jewish people.
In today's Cancel Culture some people think that closets like Rock Hudson and Freddy Mercury should be cancelled. But it was due to their (difficult!) political choices that allowed them to be famous, now celebrated as gay icons.
It's complicated."
Its also an inherent problem with trying to view the last through the lens of today's social morality. It rarely works. Unfortunately, there is little intellectual difference between students damaging priceless art for their beliefs in the West, and Daesh destroying pre-islam art and structures in the middle East. |
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By *irthandgirthMan 46 weeks ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"Stephen Fry, who is a fan of composer Richard Wagner, who is a known Nazi sympathiser and anti-semite. Fry talks about the need to celebrate the genius but equally use his exposure to talk about why Wagner is misguided on his belief about Jewish people.
In today's Cancel Culture some people think that closets like Rock Hudson and Freddy Mercury should be cancelled. But it was due to their (difficult!) political choices that allowed them to be famous, now celebrated as gay icons.
It's complicated.
Its also an inherent problem with trying to view the last through the lens of today's social morality. It rarely works. Unfortunately, there is little intellectual difference between students damaging priceless art for their beliefs in the West, and Daesh destroying pre-islam art and structures in the middle East. "
*past, not last.
Damn it, I can't spell today. |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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"It’s an interesting point.
Salvador Dali was an avowed facist yet how work has hung on almost every students wall since the 60s. Does that make his art less interesting? "
Yeah. We seem to pick and choose. It's easy to get rid of say Gary Glitter, but Bowie, who I love, probably slept with underage fans in the 70s and made a drug addled fascist speech. Admittedly Glitter was a lot more troubling human and his nonceing was pretty hard core. Walt Disney was anti semitic. Lovecraft a massive racist. |
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By *irthandgirthMan 46 weeks ago
Camberley occasionally doncaster |
"It’s an interesting point.
Salvador Dali was an avowed facist yet how work has hung on almost every students wall since the 60s. Does that make his art less interesting?
Yeah. We seem to pick and choose. It's easy to get rid of say Gary Glitter, but Bowie, who I love, probably slept with underage fans in the 70s and made a drug addled fascist speech. Admittedly Glitter was a lot more troubling human and his nonceing was pretty hard core. Walt Disney was anti semitic. Lovecraft a massive racist. "
Where do you draw the line?
Che Guevara who has graced posters and tee-shirts for decades is a well documented sadistic torturer whomwould be tried for war crimes. |
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I think its for the individual to choose.
How far would this be taken?
Would you switch off the football because a footballer had been accused of sexual assault? What about if they were found guilty?
Not listen to George Michael or Wham because of his d*unk/drug diving conviction?
Where is the line? |
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"I think its for the individual to choose.
How far would this be taken?
Would you switch off the football because a footballer had been accused of sexual assault? What about if they were found guilty?
Not listen to George Michael or Wham because of his d*unk/drug diving conviction?
Where is the line?"
I think everyone probably has different lines. I couldn’t listen to R Kelly now or Gary Glitter. Never been much of a fan of MJ but wouldn’t turn it off |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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"I think its for the individual to choose.
How far would this be taken?
Would you switch off the football because a footballer had been accused of sexual assault? What about if they were found guilty?
Not listen to George Michael or Wham because of his d*unk/drug diving conviction?
Where is the line?
I think everyone probably has different lines. I couldn’t listen to R Kelly now or Gary Glitter. Never been much of a fan of MJ but wouldn’t turn it off "
Need a Venn diagram of quality of art against crime committed. Let's leave it to science. Ha ha |
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By *r_reusMan 46 weeks ago
Coventry |
"It’s an interesting point.
Salvador Dali was an avowed facist yet how work has hung on almost every students wall since the 60s. Does that make his art less interesting? "
Space travel would not have been possible were it not for the Nazi rocket scientists NASA recruited after the war.
Reality is rarely black and white. |
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"Where do you draw the line"
Indeed! Bristol is built on profits from s1@very. S1@ve Trader Coulston's name and statue celebrated throughout the city. Black campaigners have lobbied the City Council to either remove his name/statues or educate s1@very in context. This is why we need Black History Month.
The Council refused so on the BLM (black lives matter) uprising, Coulston's statue was pulled down. We need to educate ourselves on the past glories masking the wrongs so we don't repeat them. |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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"Nazi germany and the holocaust was stopped by otherwise decent people prepared to do horrendous things. Perspective is everything "
I'm not sure the activities the Soviet troops occupying Berlin took part in would've been done by otherwise decent people... |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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"It’s an interesting point.
Salvador Dali was an avowed facist yet how work has hung on almost every students wall since the 60s. Does that make his art less interesting?
Space travel would not have been possible were it not for the Nazi rocket scientists NASA recruited after the war.
Reality is rarely black and white."
This is true, German scientists were light years ahead of the rest of the world and the yanks capitalised on it after realising the potential of the V2 rocket. Gave them all pardons for technology! As did the Russians and dare I say it UK, although not to the same numbers. |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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"It’s an interesting point.
Salvador Dali was an avowed facist yet how work has hung on almost every students wall since the 60s. Does that make his art less interesting?
Space travel would not have been possible were it not for the Nazi rocket scientists NASA recruited after the war.
Reality is rarely black and white."
It definitely would have been possible. It just would have happened at a different pace, with different people spearheading the science. |
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"Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m not particularly an advocate of cancel culture but I can’t help feeling uncomfortable about his songs being played, and isn’t there also a musical based on his songs?. Is the argument that the songs should stand on their own, and his alleged behaviour shouldn’t overshadow his artistry, otherwise we’d have to cancel everything?, I guess. Interested in other people’s views"
Didn’t like most of Mj stuff liked him in Jackson 5 in to all the Mowtown stuff
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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"Where do you draw the line
Indeed! Bristol is built on profits from s1@very. S1@ve Trader Coulston's name and statue celebrated throughout the city. Black campaigners have lobbied the City Council to either remove his name/statues or educate s1@very in context. This is why we need Black History Month.
The Council refused so on the BLM (black lives matter) uprising, Coulston's statue was pulled down. We need to educate ourselves on the past glories masking the wrongs so we don't repeat them."
The vikings took people from northern England. The Romans conquered Europe and took people from everywhere the moors I think it was rampaged the south west England taking people, the Germans committed atrocities beyond measure to the Jews who were forced to work too. Why do we get so focussed on blm? It’s wrong it doesn’t matter the colour of someone’s skin. |
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By *r_reusMan 46 weeks ago
Coventry |
"Nazi germany and the holocaust was stopped by otherwise decent people prepared to do horrendous things. Perspective is everything
I'm not sure the activities the Soviet troops occupying Berlin took part in would've been done by otherwise decent people..."
I've only heard about that recently and the stories are utterly horrifying.
Our overall understanding of events surrounding WW2 before, during and after are worryingly skewed. |
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By *r_reusMan 46 weeks ago
Coventry |
" Why do we get so focussed on blm?"
Because it was a manufactured movement with universal media and corporate backing, the billions pumped into it ensured it would dominate the narrative and most lacked the critical thinking to look and question why.
Only time will tell why those at the top wanted to cause as much damage to Western society as they did through BLM. |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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"Nazi germany and the holocaust was stopped by otherwise decent people prepared to do horrendous things. Perspective is everything
I'm not sure the activities the Soviet troops occupying Berlin took part in would've been done by otherwise decent people..."
If what the nazis did in Russia they had done to your family you would have probably been as brutal. Does that make you less decent? I see your point though and I was thinking more of western allies than red army. |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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"Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m not particularly an advocate of cancel culture but I can’t help feeling uncomfortable about his songs being played, and isn’t there also a musical based on his songs?. Is the argument that the songs should stand on their own, and his alleged behaviour shouldn’t overshadow his artistry, otherwise we’d have to cancel everything?, I guess. Interested in other people’s views"
Tricky. It's a money grab and the last chance to make money off MJ's catalogue before his fans pass away and people won't care anymore. I guess someone saw what the ABBA are doing and wanted some of that too. |
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People can make an educated decision based on fact's.
Fact is he was never convicted of anything and everything is just gossip and guessing.
It's your choice to listen or not OP noone is forcing you.
Although I don't listen to his songs much these days I certainly wouldn't turn it off if it came on the radio.
From a musical point of view he was a genius and his music definitely changed pop music forever, that's fact.
If I listen to his songs it doesn't make me a sexual deviant,I just like that song. |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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If you feel strongly enough to not wish to consume his art then that is up to you. It becomes a problem when you encourage others to boycott it or the bully tactics. |
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By *zeroMan 46 weeks ago
Glasgow |
He was never convicted but there will always be the iffyness around him. Gary Glitter, Ian Watkins and R Kelly have all been found guilty of their horrific crimes and have mostly been cancelled and it's up to you if you can separate the music from the person.
One thing that's always surprised me is the amount of people who have either forgotten or just don't really care that Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist. Even today he's getting promoted for an exhibition fight against Jake Paul. |
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I don't think he should be cancelled because his music is not his offence. If we cancel music then we need to e.g. Stop children going to schools while we rip the school down. Same with doctors surgeries or priests and churches etc ..... and probably best to ban the scout movement and the film industry ....
Thing is ...... I couldn't hear his music without thinking about the accusations and so he is cancelled in my mind anyway ..... maybe it should be up to the individual. |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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Depends on who people like whether they’re willing to overlook things tbh. Plenty of people still listen to Kanye West. Plenty still listen to R Kelly. Plenty still listen to Eric Clapton. Plenty still listen to Chris Brown. Although many may not, plenty do because they like the music even though they don’t like the actions of the artist. And they’ll, for example, say I can’t listen to Kanye because of xyz but still listen to Eric Clapton. That’s just the nature of how people these days are. |
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By *929Man 46 weeks ago
bedlington |
I’d welcome never hearing the cunt again, same with Elvia didn’t he start dating his first wife when she was 12 or so? Perhaps just stop playing it on the wireless and have it available for those who want to listen to it could be a happy medium |
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"I don’t think he was ever found guilty was he.
No he paid them off. "
No, he didn’t “pay them off”. That was money awarded in a Civil Settlement out of Court. They could’ve proceeded with a Criminal Trial, but they oddly didn’t. Took the money & ran
AND ANOTHER THING...where were the accusations of abuse prior to that pay-off?
AFTER that, they were crawling out the woodwork |
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Art Vs Artist has been a debate that's been going on for awhile. IMO an artist being bad shouldn't stop me from enjoying/admiring the art. But that's just me. I believe some people could not put aside the artist's mistakes and enjoy their art alone.
P.S Watch the film "Tar" starring Cate Blanchett. The story is about this exact issue. |
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By (user no longer on site) 46 weeks ago
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Respect ALL ways.
MJ was badly abused by the ‘Biz’.
It made him vulnerable to his own darkness.
He undoubtedly abused others.
Perpetuating the ‘Genius’ is just perpetuating te system that caused so much pain.
Terr are plenty of other artistes to enjoy -without all the toxic legacy and branding). |
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By *929Man 46 weeks ago
bedlington |
To be honest as well the parents of those he nonced must have been pretty fucking stupid and should take a share of the blame also, who on Earth sends their child to a sleepover at a grown man’s house ffs weather it’s some famous singer or not? |
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"I’d welcome never hearing the cunt again, same with Elvia didn’t he start dating his first wife when she was 12 or so? Perhaps just stop playing it on the wireless and have it available for those who want to listen to it could be a happy medium "
How is that a happy medium? The guy was never found guilty and yet you are treating him as he was. I hope you aren't on a jury anytime soon, if your bias will overtake fact/evidence.
I think MJ had alot of mental health issues due to fame at a young age and he was literally living like he was a child- reclaiming his youth. |
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By *TG3Man 46 weeks ago
Dorchester |
Remember he didn't have a childhood his father made them all perform from early ages, he tried to recoup that childhood in later life with his theme park etc i don't listen to or read media reports so they mean nothing to me, i take people as i find them  |
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By *929Man 46 weeks ago
bedlington |
"I’d welcome never hearing the cunt again, same with Elvia didn’t he start dating his first wife when she was 12 or so? Perhaps just stop playing it on the wireless and have it available for those who want to listen to it could be a happy medium
How is that a happy medium? The guy was never found guilty and yet you are treating him as he was. I hope you aren't on a jury anytime soon, if your bias will overtake fact/evidence.
I think MJ had alot of mental health issues due to fame at a young age and he was literally living like he was a child- reclaiming his youth."
He would never have paid out of court settlements if he was innocent, if bet anything if it was some creepy old bloke nobody heard of facing the exact same charges he would be found guilty in a heartbeat, would any of those fucking arseholes on the jury let their kid go sleep over at his house? |
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I have no axe to grind here. I'm pretty indifferent to MJ. From what I've seen he was very dysfunctional. How far that went I don't know.
Just wondering if everyone jumping to his defence though would do the same to Prince Andrew who also had an out of court settlement, is by law innocent and under no further investigation? |
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"I have no axe to grind here. I'm pretty indifferent to MJ. From what I've seen he was very dysfunctional. How far that went I don't know.
Just wondering if everyone jumping to his defence though would do the same to Prince Andrew who also had an out of court settlement, is by law innocent and under no further investigation?"
These are excellent points. |
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"Remember he didn't have a childhood his father made them all perform from early ages, he tried to recoup that childhood in later life with his theme park etc i don't listen to or read media reports so they mean nothing to me, i take people as i find them "
What was MJ like when you met him then? How DID you find him? |
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I used to like James Wood especially when I saw Videodrome for the first time. He also made some really great films in the 80’s but his support for Donald Trump has made watching him a chore and I can’t get past his Political Views.
Feel the same about Will Smith, wasn’t a massive fan but thought the roles he played suited his character. However the infamous slap during the Oscars for some reason has put me right off him.
But Op, I have really struggled to dislike Michael Jackson’s music. I suppose it’s because some of those songs bring back really happy memories. I believe Michael Jackson’s victims and their allegations but in his case I have separated his art from his private life, but I’m not comfortable with it.  |
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By *orny-DJMan 46 weeks ago
Leigh-on-Sea |
"I’d welcome never hearing the cunt again, same with Elvia didn’t he start dating his first wife when she was 12 or so? Perhaps just stop playing it on the wireless and have it available for those who want to listen to it could be a happy medium
How is that a happy medium? The guy was never found guilty and yet you are treating him as he was. I hope you aren't on a jury anytime soon, if your bias will overtake fact/evidence.
I think MJ had alot of mental health issues due to fame at a young age and he was literally living like he was a child- reclaiming his youth.
He would never have paid out of court settlements if he was innocent, if bet anything if it was some creepy old bloke nobody heard of facing the exact same charges he would be found guilty in a heartbeat, would any of those fucking arseholes on the jury let their kid go sleep over at his house? "
That's not entirely accurate.
In many cases, solicitors / lawyers often advise their clients to make an out of court settlement as it can often be a lot less expensive than the legal fees involved in going to court.
In the case of his first accuser, the father of a young lad, he was being threatened that unless he paid a certain amount, the chap would go to the papers and tge fact that none of it was true was irrelevant.
We all know what the media is like and such a story appearing couod have ruined his career even if it was later revealed all to be false.
Then again, solicitors don't always get these things right |
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"I have no axe to grind here. I'm pretty indifferent to MJ. From what I've seen he was very dysfunctional. How far that went I don't know.
Just wondering if everyone jumping to his defence though would do the same to Prince Andrew who also had an out of court settlement, is by law innocent and under no further investigation?"
He was found not guilty in 2005 after 32 hours of deliberations therefore he is innocent.
As for Andrew, I don't think he done anything wrong- another money grabber and wasn't she of consenting age?
Either way, there is lots of questionable people like Harriet Harman for starters. If Fab is anything to go by anyone with a school girl fantasy needs locking up  |
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"I don’t think he was ever found guilty was he. "
in america there really isn't justice. Enough people round him call him one. there are kids all over the world who start work early and don't have a childhood, he acted like a child in public, yet was a shrewd businessman.
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By *hirleyMan 46 weeks ago
somewhere |
"I have no axe to grind here. I'm pretty indifferent to MJ. From what I've seen he was very dysfunctional. How far that went I don't know.
Just wondering if everyone jumping to his defence though would do the same to Prince Andrew who also had an out of court settlement, is by law innocent and under no further investigation?"
I've said from day one, and in subsequent information being released about Prince Andrew, he's not been found guilty in a court of law.
I'm bias but I don't care too much for what goes on the states and their strange Republic. Yet to be convinced by anything that is good to come from there |
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By *ullyMan 46 weeks ago
Near Clacton |
If memory serves he was not "accused" by the two boys, they simply stated they shared a bath. There was no accusation of M J actually assaulting them or any others. He settled out of court to save embarrassment and and the kids getting torn apart by lawyers and the media. After M J died they were encouraged to try to get a further slice of his fortune by saying he did touch them, but the allegations were not true.
All kinds of accusations fly about in the U.S.A as it is a money grabbing culture! I saw a clip on Twitter (X) last night of an alleged actual short clip of Kennedy's driver turning in his seat and shooting Kennedy. This accusation has been around since day one, but this clip has apparently just been found? True, False?? Who knows?
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Well they do Jack the Ripper tours in London and he was a serial killer so it can’t be that bad. That said, if f they did Harold Shipman tours around Manchester everyone would be up in arms about it so does time make a difference? |
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"Maybe I’m wrong, and I’m not particularly an advocate of cancel culture but I can’t help feeling uncomfortable about his songs being played, and isn’t there also a musical based on his songs?. Is the argument that the songs should stand on their own, and his alleged behaviour shouldn’t overshadow his artistry, otherwise we’d have to cancel everything?, I guess. Interested in other people’s views"
who's cancelling what? He's a legend. If you don't like him or his music simply put something else on lol
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