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By *stella OP Woman 31 weeks ago
London |
Have you undertaken therapy? Would you? If so, is there a specific type of therapy you think is best for you? Would you have a same sex therapist or not? Have you ever had transference with a therapist (when you attach your feelings onto the therapist)?
Talk to me. |
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I have tried it twice. The first (a man) was so flabbergasted by what had happened to me he simply didn’t know what to say. The second, a woman, responded a little better, but something about her seemed off, and so I only saw her twice. I didn’t bother trying with anyone else. I have spoken to a couple of others, friends I thought I could trust who have some empathy. Turns out I was wrong about that too, so now my story just stays buttoned up. Xx |
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By *stella OP Woman 31 weeks ago
London |
"I have tried it twice. The first (a man) was so flabbergasted by what had happened to me he simply didn’t know what to say. The second, a woman, responded a little better, but something about her seemed off, and so I only saw her twice. I didn’t bother trying with anyone else. I have spoken to a couple of others, friends I thought I could trust who have some empathy. Turns out I was wrong about that too, so now my story just stays buttoned up. Xx"
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I have talk therapy on a regular basis.
Opposite sex therapist. I did a lot of research and reading on the available options local to me before having a trial session and seemed to find a good fit first try for that.
I tried online and phone sessions prior to that but I couldn't connect with the person on the other side that way. I tried CBT but it was all things I already do and at the time I needed help there wasn't anything in that that could help me.
Some days feel like hitting my head against a brick wall. Some rare days there's an immediate clarity. Most times I take away the questions and external view point and let them gestate and progress in the peripherals until I'm ready to deal with the questions they raise.
I find it very helpful overall. I would recommend it |
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I went once via the NHS unloaded about my past the therapist cried and I never went back. Privately I found one that matched me well, opposite sex and no transference as such and was a good experience. Thought about her fucking me but I’ve thought that about 90% of women I’ve met and 20% of men haha   |
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i was going to group therapy with other men, it’s called andy’s man club, but due to personal circumstances I can’t make the sessions now so i’m looking for a 1-2-1 therapist, this is to help me deal with bereavement and suicidal thoughts. |
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By *stella OP Woman 31 weeks ago
London |
"I have talk therapy on a regular basis.
Opposite sex therapist. I did a lot of research and reading on the available options local to me before having a trial session and seemed to find a good fit first try for that.
I tried online and phone sessions prior to that but I couldn't connect with the person on the other side that way. I tried CBT but it was all things I already do and at the time I needed help there wasn't anything in that that could help me.
Some days feel like hitting my head against a brick wall. Some rare days there's an immediate clarity. Most times I take away the questions and external view point and let them gestate and progress in the peripherals until I'm ready to deal with the questions they raise.
I find it very helpful overall. I would recommend it "
I’ve only ever done therapy with a same sex therapist, but think I’d like a male therapist knowing I would definitely get overly attached but hoping it would be safely and in a way I could get some breakthrough clarity. If that makes sense! |
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By *stella OP Woman 31 weeks ago
London |
"I think it's really valuable to investigate and learn about the types of therapy that exist. You can narrow down your search for the types that seem right for you, before finding the person. "
I’ve always had a tendency towards transactional analysis. |
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By (user no longer on site) 31 weeks ago
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I am going to London next month to learn about complex trauma and ptsd.. Most of it is about bereavement. Work related though.
Always a good idea to contact your GP who can direct you to right therapist.
I am also trained in cognitive behaviour therapy which talks about anxieties. |
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The most effective thing I have had for trauma recovery is EMDR. About 6 sessions which I paid for privately.
I did have some psychotherapy for a year, which I didn't find as effective. I think it is in part level of trust in the therapist.
Good luck in your journey OP. |
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By *cflirtyMan 31 weeks ago
hants/ w sussex border |
I have had therapy in the past the first a male although understood wasnt that helpful, the second a lady.. seemed to relate better and gave me more positives. I recently spoke to her after one of my service buddies died and she helped and reinforced previous advice |
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By (user no longer on site) 31 weeks ago
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I’ve had therapy in the past 12 months, through work. Sadly it was only 8 sessions and money is a bit too tight to take it on myself. I found it very helpful, even as an opportunity to talk and release the pressure valve. |
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"Have you undertaken therapy? Would you? If so, is there a specific type of therapy you think is best for you? Would you have a same sex therapist or not? Have you ever had transference with a therapist (when you attach your feelings onto the therapist)?
Talk to me. "
Yes, I've had talking therapy twice.
Twenty years ago I went through a bad time with my second wife and we went to Relate who, as part of their advice, said psychotherapy might be useful for me. I did some online research and found a lady local to me who I saw for four years during which time my wife and I were divorced. I never did get to the bottom of my obsession with threesomes!
That series ended when I met my third wife. After some years, it was obvious that our sexual appetites were mis-matched and so we sought help from a therapist specialising in couples'sexual problems. That ended up with me joining Fab with my wife's consent, and the rest as they say is history
I'm a great believer in talking as therapy. I also think women are naturally more empathetic than most men so would always prefer a woman.
I did not have any transference experience.
Co-incidentally, I'm currently planning to take bereavement counselling which is basically the same sort of thing but for a specific purpose.
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I have done "workshops" which can be very much like therapy. Not 1-2-1 therapy though, which I really need to look into..... I dated a psychotherapist for a while, which was tough, as I found that the divide between the relationship Vs therapy was very thin.....I didnt want to, or feel, "analysed" in a relationship ......
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By *sWyldWoman 31 weeks ago
Edinburgh |
I actually trained in counselling many years ago and as part of that had a few sessions. At the time I really didn't open up, it was a tick box exercise for me really.
I've never looked at it again, I sometimes think it would be helpful as I'd certainly recommend it to others, but in reality I'm too scared to start unpacking my stuff, so it's best left alone. |
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By *ady LickWoman 31 weeks ago
Northampton Somewhere |
I had 2 cbt sessions with a male when I was in my 20's through the NHS which was supposed to help me deal with the sudden loss of my father. Unfortunately I didn't really click with the guy and I didn't engage well in the sessions so I binned it off. In hindsight I should of stuck with it.
Ahhhh well....  |
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Had CBT twice. The first swore constant and I'm pretty sure was d*unk. The second was as I cut the first short; he decided I'd said a word 4 times in 15 mins and would give treatment based on it. I can't remember the word but it wasn't something in my everyday vocabulary. I asked him how long he'd been a counsellor and it was only a couple of years, so again cut that short too. Waited 18 months for the first and another few months more for the second.
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I had group therapy after seeing psychiatrists a few times.
I started to feel worse so I stopped going and wasn't happy divulging my personal life to strangers; even though I was told we wouldn't be asked.
I did come away with a useful exercise for bringing myself out of a panic attack, and relaxation techniques.
I didn't tell the psychiatrists or counsellor about my relationship with my husband.
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By *VineMan 31 weeks ago
The right place |
"I have had therapy in the past. It was CBT focused.
If I was to go again I think I would seek out an IFS practitioner. "
Oh! And to answer the rest of the question, my counsellor was an older man, I don’t believe there was any transference. I have also had couples counselling with a woman, but that wasn’t very helpful. |
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Yes. Most recently was after the death of my father 2017 and breakdown of a relationship at the same time.
It was helpful.
The therapist was male, and very good, there were no problems with remaining professional, although I thought we got on well. |
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"Have you undertaken therapy? Would you? If so, is there a specific type of therapy you think is best for you? Would you have a same sex therapist or not? Have you ever had transference with a therapist (when you attach your feelings onto the therapist)?
Talk to me. "
Years ago yes, was reluctant to go as i thought I was ok. But found it really helpful, after each session I felt a little less like I was carrying a big rock or maybe it was eroded by the tears during ..
One to one with a fantastic lady and something like transference just never entered my head..
It was a bit of a Rubicon moment as previously my mindset was rufty tufty ex military blokes working in one of the emergency services just got on with shit..
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"I think it's really valuable to investigate and learn about the types of therapy that exist. You can narrow down your search for the types that seem right for you, before finding the person.
I’ve always had a tendency towards transactional analysis. "
Transactional Analysis is interesting and I like the Berne's Games People Play book, which I have gifted to quite a few friends
The various therapies are so different, it's amazing that we have such choice  |
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I've had a lot of therapy. CBT was a bit... plaster on a gunshot wound (I'm not saying it doesn't work for anyone. I'm saying it didn't work for *me*). What did work... I don't know exactly what my therapists used apart from the ones that used CBT - I know internal family systems played a role, and variations on body based therapy with a heavy emphasis on mindfulness meditation. But I'm neurospicy and have (have had?) some complex needs. It's been a journey and then some.
I've had predominantly same sex but some opposite sex therapists, and it makes no difference to me. I don't think I've ever had any transference issues |
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By *alcon77Man 31 weeks ago
under the sun & the moon |
Talk therapy is something I need to do / look into.
Speaking to folks I know that have had cbt therapy, I don't think it will work as well as talk therapy for my issues.
I've diagnosed myself with arrested development.. |
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By *stella OP Woman 31 weeks ago
London |
"Talk therapy is something I need to do / look into.
Speaking to folks I know that have had cbt therapy, I don't think it will work as well as talk therapy for my issues.
I've diagnosed myself with arrested development.."
I. Am. Resisting. The. Urge.
*…everyday people!
Damn. Apologies.
I all seriousness, hope you find someone that works for you. |
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More counselling for me. The first time a lady must be about 20 yrs ago now. I wld sit there and cry for the whole appointment. Was goin throu a terrible time with my youngest son. This time cbd counselling a man over the phone. He had a very calming voice which kept me calm. |
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By (user no longer on site) 31 weeks ago
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"I've had a truckload of therapy. Several different counsellors and two psychologists who provided CBT (Cognitive Behavioural Therapy). CBT is what's stayed with me over the years but counselling has helped me cope with particular situations eg PND. "
I've worked with men and women and have no preference. There's only one person who was quite combative with me. I just didn't return and asked for someone else. |
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Before some massive surgeries I was told to have therapy as there would be changes to my life post it.
As with anything you have to believe it is of value. Not just pay lip service to it. You also, in my opinion, have the right to challenge what they are saying in return. Sometimes I found it a bit of a text book answer and they were not really listening to me.
That said did it work? When I learnt that it was of benefit to me I would say it did but it’s what you do and the mechanisms you have in place once it’s all finished. That’s the challenge |
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I had 10 weeks of CBT about 6 years ago and couldn't understand any of it.
I had been spinning in circles for a decade and the only thing that therapy taught me was that being stuck in a cycle of talking about past experiences was doing more harm than good.
I made a vow afterwards that I would never go to therapy again and I would just get out and live my life.
I've stuck to that vow and changed my life and entire outlook around.
The counsellor was male and probably perfectly good at his job but it wasn't for me.
I have been asked if maybe he was so good that he pointed me in the right direction without my being aware.
That is possible but I left each session feeling more frustrated than when I entered and couldn't wait for it all to be over so I didn't feel I could relate to him at all. |
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I've had therapy of various forms. Some modalities are designed for specific issues like EMDR for PTSD.
In a general sense I can recommend a therapist whose core training is person-centred. They understand that counselling is primarily about listening rather than being directive. Gestalt therapists also have a very similar approach. They can both be particularly good for people who didn't find CBT helpful. Therapy should leave one feeling self-empowered and able to say I don't need this relationship anymore, as a goal. Issues like transference occur and a therapist ought to be able to manage it effectively and create a space where a client can talk about it openly. It can become a tool rather than a barrier then.
I've had good male and female therapists. If you are on here it may be worth looking for one who is kink or enm/poly aware. |
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By *essiCouple 12 weeks ago
suffolk |
I have a few times..CBT and counselling..never felt it really worked for me,always more questions than answers.so things stay unresolved..but it's certainly worth trying to see if it helps you..  |
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i helped a few people years ago with some NLP sessions ... though NLP is one of those debatable therapies as it can be open for abuse and does get some bad press. i have found it has been pretty useful with getting some people on the right track though over the years |
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By *mf123Man 12 weeks ago
with one foot out the door |
Kind of i tried once until i was told i need to change how i think about things at that point i left i dont like being told what to do and dont like the thought of changing how i think you ask me thats like brain washing trying to turn me into someone else so i actively steer clear of things like that now |
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"Have you undertaken therapy? Would you? If so, is there a specific type of therapy you think is best for you? Would you have a same sex therapist or not? Have you ever had transference with a therapist (when you attach your feelings onto the therapist)?
I've had emdr and brain spotting therapy for my childhood traumas.
I find it easier to talk to a female therapist, due to the nature of my childhood traumas.
I haven't developed feeling for them past I like them for the person they are and admire the role they have taken on, as it's an intense and draining role to burden. It takes a very special soul to be able to listen to others burdens and help them find their way through it.
At least that's my opinion of the matter
Talk to me. "
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"I have had EMDR therapy - two sets of sessions.
Was moderately effective, first set with female therapist and second with male.
.
I woukd recommend it.
Is this the eye movement therapy?"
Yes. The body keeps the score is a good book to read of you wish to understand more in this process |
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"I have had EMDR therapy - two sets of sessions.
Was moderately effective, first set with female therapist and second with male.
.
I woukd recommend it. "
I would recommend this too.
Amazing for PTSD or any kind of trauma as we carry it in our bodies without even realising it.
I've seen amazing results with help the hero's veterans, long covid patient and in hospice care, |
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I'm currently undergoing CBT trauma therapy, for stuff that has happened in the past and to try and stop it happening in the future. In the scheme of things my trauma isn't massive but it's MY trauma.
I was skeptical at first and had taken alot of sessions for me to start believing in it and I'm still not sure it's doing me any good but I'm about 16 weeks in (have a session every 2 weeks via zoom) and my therapist still doesn't think I'm ready to be let go yet (probably thinking of the money tbh lol). I'm very lucky to have private health care so got a referral pretty quickly. |
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"i was going to group therapy with other men, it’s called andy’s man club, but due to personal circumstances I can’t make the sessions now so i’m looking for a 1-2-1 therapist, this is to help me deal with bereavement and suicidal thoughts."
Self refer to your local IAPT service, look online for cruise, the good grief project or sue ryder.
Hope you get the help that you need. Hang in there, it gets easier. |
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Ive been having a psychotherapy session every week for a couple of months now - it’s completely changed my life, helped me get a new job, new car, given me more confidence - would 100% recommend anyone to try it.
It can be a bit ‘out there’, but with an open mind it’s really powerful.
I do spend half of my time in the sessions fantasizing about fucking my older female therapist though |
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All therapists are not created equal.
Find the right therapist that works for you = life-changing.
Find one that doesn't work for you = no real gains. Minor ones, slow and frustrating.
Transference - go with it. It's part of the process, and you'll learn from it. Don't be afraid of it (what are you afraid of? Usually, it's only "revealing yourself" because you've been hiding for years).
Once you've got the therapy into your good habits, then take up meditation.
They complement each other. |
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"Ive been having a psychotherapy session every week for a couple of months now - it’s completely changed my life, helped me get a new job, new car, given me more confidence - would 100% recommend anyone to try it.
It can be a bit ‘out there’, but with an open mind it’s really powerful.
I do spend half of my time in the sessions fantasizing about fucking my older female therapist though "
Then get a new therapist. I am not joking. Her safety is as important as anyone elses. She is a professional giving you help and will have worked to build a professional therapeutic relationship - maybe keep your mind on your own self improvement. |
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"Ive been having a psychotherapy session every week for a couple of months now - it’s completely changed my life, helped me get a new job, new car, given me more confidence - would 100% recommend anyone to try it.
It can be a bit ‘out there’, but with an open mind it’s really powerful.
I do spend half of my time in the sessions fantasizing about fucking my older female therapist though
Then get a new therapist. I am not joking. Her safety is as important as anyone elses. She is a professional giving you help and will have worked to build a professional therapeutic relationship - maybe keep your mind on your own self improvement."
I'll disagree with this.
Telling my therapist when I was 25 that I had sexual fantasies about her was the biggest single key to unlocking my heavily repressed sexuality.
A good therapist welcomes this as material to explore, whilst still maintaining a distance, and probing what you are thinking and feeling.
I gained insights that were beyond the intellectual, and moved into a "lived incorporation" of desire into my life.
Understanding a client will form sexual attachments to therapists is part of the training, and moving through that release of desire is positive. |
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By *unchalMan 12 weeks ago
Dartford |
"Have you undertaken therapy? Would you? If so, is there a specific type of therapy you think is best for you? Would you have a same sex therapist or not? Have you ever had transference with a therapist (when you attach your feelings onto the therapist)?
Talk to me. "
Yes. 7 years, 3 times a week. I am now cured!
I would suggest some kind of longer term, more frequent, probably psychoanalytic based therapy. There are no quick cures, despite what some therapies would have you believe. If you choose the therapist with care (experience, qualifications, registered with professional bodies, insurance etc) then you trust that they will help you manage the relationship. Including any feelings of transference (by the way, this is managed by the therapist. You just have to experience it). The hardest part of ‘therapy’ is committing to it and sticking with the uncomfortable feelings. Your anxieties about the sex of the therapist might be a communication that you could share with your therapist.
I assume you already know that it is fucking expensive.
Good luck. |
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"I have had EMDR therapy - two sets of sessions.
Was moderately effective, first set with female therapist and second with male.
.
I woukd recommend it.
Is this the eye movement therapy?"
Yes it is |
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"I've had therapy of various forms. Some modalities are designed for specific issues like EMDR for PTSD.
In a general sense I can recommend a therapist whose core training is person-centred. They understand that counselling is primarily about listening rather than being directive. Gestalt therapists also have a very similar approach. They can both be particularly good for people who didn't find CBT helpful. Therapy should leave one feeling self-empowered and able to say I don't need this relationship anymore, as a goal. Issues like transference occur and a therapist ought to be able to manage it effectively and create a space where a client can talk about it openly. It can become a tool rather than a barrier then.
I've had good male and female therapists. If you are on here it may be worth looking for one who is kink or enm/poly aware. "
The counsellor I'm seeing is a person centred practitioner and she seems very open minded and understanding about our lifestyle, not that that is the object of the sessions. I'm about 3/4 sessions in. She'd the second person I've seen, the first left the organisation after two sessions, having cancelled and rearranged the second session in any case. I nearly gave up because I'd just opened the brain-box labelled "do not touch", Pandora's box had flowed out and then at the end of session 2, she said "this is our last session and you'll have to go back on the waiting list."
Thankfully, the second therapist became available reasonably quickly, quickly enough for me not to make a rash decision to quit it and actually, she seems to be a much better fit for me anyway and the venue is easier to get to, and into! It even has a wheelchair accessible toilet, which the other did not |
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OP - There are some extremely useful replies on here.
As ever, there's a lot of data to sift through (which, ironically, is what a good therapist helps you do, amongst other things).
Take the step (it can be bloody expensive), if it doesn't work with therapist 1, find the strength if you can for therapist 2, and if that doesn't work, then therapist 3.
The hardest part (as Kinkies said) is once you've opened up that Pandora's Box, being able to keep letting those things out for the therapist, and you, to assimilate their multifaceted meanings.
That's harder if you have to go through 2 or 3 before finding the best fit.
Not only will a good fit work with transference, sexual attachments/fantasies, but also "psychic violence" towards them.
If you've been told, from birth, for example - never to be "angry", your therapist will help you find ways of bringing everything associated with that (everything!) into a space to be worked with.
So, JFDI (if you can afford it).
Break a leg x |
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And finally finally (for now OP), MIND often offer low-cost (around £15 per hour) 2nd and 3rd year psychotherapy undergrads, depending on where you live.
Cost is a major barrier for therapy, and I know at least one person who has benefitted from the MIND programme - her therapist was a near perfect fit, and they stayed together after the therapist's graduation. |
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By (user no longer on site) 12 weeks ago
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" I know at least one person who has benefitted from the MIND programme - her therapist was a near perfect fit, and they stayed together after the therapist's graduation. "
Is that not in breach of the professional body's Ethical Framework re client/therapist relationships? |
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I haven’t but I have very good listeners and advisers I can talk to about anything and also strong faith that helps.
I think it’s great that so many consider therapy these days.
Someone very close to me is a clinical psychologist & tells me that many of the mental health problems in young adults today are a result of generations of parents and grandparents refusing to acknowledge & deal with their own problems and seek therapy.
Their own bias against therapy and belief in resilience making the problems even worse.
So it’s great to see the cycle being broken |
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By *unchalMan 12 weeks ago
Dartford |
" I know at least one person who has benefitted from the MIND programme - her therapist was a near perfect fit, and they stayed together after the therapist's graduation.
Is that not in breach of the professional body's Ethical Framework re client/therapist relationships?"
Metaphorical fit, I think. |
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By *unchalMan 12 weeks ago
Dartford |
"I haven’t but I have very good listeners and advisers I can talk to about anything and also strong faith that helps.
I think it’s great that so many consider therapy these days.
Someone very close to me is a clinical psychologist & tells me that many of the mental health problems in young adults today are a result of generations of parents and grandparents refusing to acknowledge & deal with their own problems and seek therapy.
Their own bias against therapy and belief in resilience making the problems even worse.
So it’s great to see the cycle being broken "
I had a supervisor who suggested that the trauma can be traced back to WWII. |
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By (user no longer on site) 12 weeks ago
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" I know at least one person who has benefitted from the MIND programme - her therapist was a near perfect fit, and they stayed together after the therapist's graduation.
Is that not in breach of the professional body's Ethical Framework re client/therapist relationships?
Metaphorical fit, I think. "
I was being an arse |
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"I've had therapy of various forms. Some modalities are designed for specific issues like EMDR for PTSD.
In a general sense I can recommend a therapist whose core training is person-centred. They understand that counselling is primarily about listening rather than being directive. Gestalt therapists also have a very similar approach. They can both be particularly good for people who didn't find CBT helpful. Therapy should leave one feeling self-empowered and able to say I don't need this relationship anymore, as a goal. Issues like transference occur and a therapist ought to be able to manage it effectively and create a space where a client can talk about it openly. It can become a tool rather than a barrier then.
I've had good male and female therapists. If you are on here it may be worth looking for one who is kink or enm/poly aware.
The counsellor I'm seeing is a person centred practitioner and she seems very open minded and understanding about our lifestyle, not that that is the object of the sessions. I'm about 3/4 sessions in. She'd the second person I've seen, the first left the organisation after two sessions, having cancelled and rearranged the second session in any case. I nearly gave up because I'd just opened the brain-box labelled "do not touch", Pandora's box had flowed out and then at the end of session 2, she said "this is our last session and you'll have to go back on the waiting list."
Thankfully, the second therapist became available reasonably quickly, quickly enough for me not to make a rash decision to quit it and actually, she seems to be a much better fit for me anyway and the venue is easier to get to, and into! It even has a wheelchair accessible toilet, which the other did not "
Sounds peculiar the first experience, I am glad it didn't put you off. I found it helped me greatly and my wife (who'd pretty much had the works) said it was by far the best modality for her. The relationship with the counsellor is important - so getting the right fit for you is ideal. |
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"I haven’t but I have very good listeners and advisers I can talk to about anything and also strong faith that helps.
I think it’s great that so many consider therapy these days.
Someone very close to me is a clinical psychologist & tells me that many of the mental health problems in young adults today are a result of generations of parents and grandparents refusing to acknowledge & deal with their own problems and seek therapy.
Their own bias against therapy and belief in resilience making the problems even worse.
So it’s great to see the cycle being broken
I had a supervisor who suggested that the trauma can be traced back to WWII. "
Bloody nora. We agree on something 
I think some of my family trauma stems from the lack of processing and dealing with the Holocaust impact. My Grandma never spoke about it. My Dad only learned more about it after she died (post 1998) and I've done more research and found out loads. Grandma must have been harbouring a LOT of trauma. In addition to family being murdered, her sister committed suicide and she had a baby who died as an infant, all within the same 8 years. |
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I carried a trauma from my childhood when I lost both parents. I tried several times during my life but never worked until three years ago. The transference was unreal. Honestly Voodoo. Maybe because we talked in English and I didn't use my mother tongue, and the therapist was a genius. It changed my life. I'm able to be here and feel sexy and self-confident about my body for the first time in my life just after and because of the therapy. Maybe wasn't so good for me |
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"I haven’t but I have very good listeners and advisers I can talk to about anything and also strong faith that helps.
I think it’s great that so many consider therapy these days.
Someone very close to me is a clinical psychologist & tells me that many of the mental health problems in young adults today are a result of generations of parents and grandparents refusing to acknowledge & deal with their own problems and seek therapy.
Their own bias against therapy and belief in resilience making the problems even worse.
So it’s great to see the cycle being broken
I had a supervisor who suggested that the trauma can be traced back to WWII.
Bloody nora. We agree on something
I think some of my family trauma stems from the lack of processing and dealing with the Holocaust impact. My Grandma never spoke about it. My Dad only learned more about it after she died (post 1998) and I've done more research and found out loads. Grandma must have been harbouring a LOT of trauma. In addition to the family being murdered, her sister committed suicide and she had a baby who died as an infant, all within the same 8 years. "
Amazing story of life. Did you travel to find your roots? Where? |
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