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Prisons are full
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"Dig a big pit and put them all in there" As long as the pit is in the Isle of Man. Because NIMBY.  | |||
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"There are many issues regarding prisons all over the UK not just Scotland. However if we tackled the problems in society this would reduce the prison population. The issue is not the prisons but how people end up there. Yes we will always have people who will commit crime. However if we tackled the reasons this would reduce the need for prison places. " There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x" Sweet Jesus. | |||
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"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. " You don't agree?, Mrs x | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x" If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. " Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. " Rehabilitation has been tried unsuccessfully for years and years now. The problem with it is that it would have to be individually tailored to each inmate as there criminality is unique to them. It would be prohibitively expensive to have such a system and why should my taxes go towards trying to help someone, who has wronged society, and may never want to change? Prison is not a punishment, their loss of liberty is their punishment. The actual numbers are quite small, yet we throw millions at this problem with very poor results. Prison works in that it keeps cons away from the general population, Mrs x | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now." And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. | |||
"Send them to Australia." Rwanda! | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. " Cultural mentality comes into it. When you have lack of discipline as a society, how can you implement that? Societies with high crime need discipline not hug a hoodie | |||
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"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. " That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x" Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation? | |||
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"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?" I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task. | |||
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"There are many issues regarding prisons all over the UK not just Scotland. However if we tackled the problems in society this would reduce the prison population. The issue is not the prisons but how people end up there. Yes we will always have people who will commit crime. However if we tackled the reasons this would reduce the need for prison places. There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x" . Where do we lock them all away of we're running out of space? Who will lock them away if we're woefully understaffed to critically unsafe levels? Evie | |||
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"There are many issues regarding prisons all over the UK not just Scotland. However if we tackled the problems in society this would reduce the prison population. The issue is not the prisons but how people end up there. Yes we will always have people who will commit crime. However if we tackled the reasons this would reduce the need for prison places. There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x. Where do we lock them all away of we're running out of space? Who will lock them away if we're woefully understaffed to critically unsafe levels? Evie " it is definitely underfunded and understaffed, no doubt. This should be addressed, but the problem is not that big. It can be fixed, Mrs x | |||
"There are many issues regarding prisons all over the UK not just Scotland. However if we tackled the problems in society this would reduce the prison population. The issue is not the prisons but how people end up there. Yes we will always have people who will commit crime. However if we tackled the reasons this would reduce the need for prison places. " 
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"Reoffending is the downfall of our system. Literally see people want to be caught because they feel safer inside too which is a sad state for our population. Roof over their head and warm meals. Low proportion but this is the case. " That's not true, when you compare the numbers it's not a big issue. The issue is underfunding and staffing, Mrs x | |||
"The issue is not the prisons but how people end up there. Yes we will always have people who will commit crime. However if we tackled the reasons this would reduce the need for prison places.
"What are the main reasons, as there are probably too many to mention individually, that people commit crime? | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task." I was under the impression that the Netherlands had invested heavily in rehabilitation, and in fact the whole philosophy of it’s judicial system was to both prevent people going to prison in the first place and to provide rehabilitation to anyone who commits a crime. This may explain why their prison rate is 54 per 100,000 and their recidivism is at 40% and dropping while ours are 132 per 100,000 and 63%. In Norway, where rehabilitation is an even bigger part of the prison system, the recidivism rate is barely 20% Do our criminals have more varied reasons for offending than theirs? | |||
"It's a difficult one. Don't think there is a one size fits all answer either. Sure for some going to prison will be a wake up call; an experience they never want to repeat. For others it will be an occupational hazard to paraphrase from Porridge. Would tougher sentences act as a deterrent, stricter parole conditions/release on licence? Would a more softly, softly approach with a more equitable society work? Some may leave better educated; others will learn how to commit more serious crimes. I don't think anyone has the answer; either to stop reoffending or for rehabilitation. " Norway’s reoffending rate is less than 1/3 of ours, so they must surely have some answers? | |||
"The issue is not the prisons but how people end up there. Yes we will always have people who will commit crime. However if we tackled the reasons this would reduce the need for prison places.
What are the main reasons, as there are probably too many to mention individually, that people commit crime? "Poverty, alcohol and substance abuse, education, peer pressure and social factors such as family unit. | |||
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"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task. I was under the impression that the Netherlands had invested heavily in rehabilitation, and in fact the whole philosophy of it’s judicial system was to both prevent people going to prison in the first place and to provide rehabilitation to anyone who commits a crime. This may explain why their prison rate is 54 per 100,000 and their recidivism is at 40% and dropping while ours are 132 per 100,000 and 63%. In Norway, where rehabilitation is an even bigger part of the prison system, the recidivism rate is barely 20% Do our criminals have more varied reasons for offending than theirs?" No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it. That's not going to stop all such offences but it is probably a factor. It's not as black and white. Do you want to pay much more tax pounds to give to other sectors in society as an incentive to not commit crime. Or do you want to deal with those that do commit crime in a punitive fashion. Different approaches to the same problem, but we have to deal with the one we currently have. As for the Netherlands TBS programme, psychological approaches do not work in every circumstance, things like sex offences are one such area, Mrs x | |||
"Poverty, alcohol and substance abuse, education, peer pressure and social factors such as family unit. " So if we take the first three as they are tangible. Poverty - how do you lift everyone out of poverty? Alcohol and substance abuse - how do you make sure no one falls into this? Education - we try to make sure everyone is educated to at least 16yo. What would you do differently? | |||
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"Poverty, alcohol and substance abuse, education, peer pressure and social factors such as family unit. So if we take the first three as they are tangible. Poverty - how do you lift everyone out of poverty? Alcohol and substance abuse - how do you make sure no one falls into this? Education - we try to make sure everyone is educated to at least 16yo. What would you do differently? " These are all government failings - yes there will always be some who fall to drugs or alcohol, some who slip through the cracks in the Winston system, but the numbers appear to be increasing. The important thing to remember is that many of these issues are symbiotic - if we try to ‘fix’ one of them, it’ll likely fail because we don’t address the surrounding issues. In short - it’s a society thing. | |||
"Poverty, alcohol and substance abuse, education, peer pressure and social factors such as family unit. So if we take the first three as they are tangible. Poverty - how do you lift everyone out of poverty? Alcohol and substance abuse - how do you make sure no one falls into this? Education - we try to make sure everyone is educated to at least 16yo. What would you do differently? These are all government failings - yes there will always be some who fall to drugs or alcohol, some who slip through the cracks in the Winston system, but the numbers appear to be increasing. The important thing to remember is that many of these issues are symbiotic - if we try to ‘fix’ one of them, it’ll likely fail because we don’t address the surrounding issues. In short - it’s a society thing. " It is a society thing, you are spot on but it's also human nature. How do you stop greed? Give people more and certain individuals will always want more. Addiction problems are not primarily from the substances but from an individuals addictive personality, ban one thing they will move onto another. I could go on but it's almost never ending. So that leaves us with how society deals with crime. Our system is punitive, locking away offenders for an amount of time our society deems fit. It may not be the best system but it serves its function, keeping prisoners away from the law abiding public. As for increasing numbers, it may not be just down to a harsher system but may also be influenced by our increasing population, Mrs x | |||
"Put them back into society after all is that where they go eventually. I am fed up paying for criminals to eat and be rehabilitated some you cannot they reoffend. Too many criminals on our streets already. Send them to RWANDA we just paid £280m to that country. Think how many prisons that build. " Ew. | |||
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"Send them to Australia. Rwanda!" Stop that, Nanna! | |||
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"No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it." I don't think they have 50k £ equivalent per year!! The £:NOK is about 1:13.4 They get "A standard amount that is used to calculate benefits and pensions, and which is set on 1 May each year. As of 1 May 2021, the Basic Amount is NOK 106 399, or about EUR 10 672." That's from ec.europa.eu/ Also their benefit system is based on your income during the previous 12 months; I'm not sure how they manage long term unemployment. And lets put it this way; if by some magic our government said overnight; everyone can get £50k on benefits; who would bother go to work? You can't compare unless you factor in things like the cost of living; tax revenues; GDP and many others things I don't even understand! | |||
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"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task. I was under the impression that the Netherlands had invested heavily in rehabilitation, and in fact the whole philosophy of it’s judicial system was to both prevent people going to prison in the first place and to provide rehabilitation to anyone who commits a crime. This may explain why their prison rate is 54 per 100,000 and their recidivism is at 40% and dropping while ours are 132 per 100,000 and 63%. In Norway, where rehabilitation is an even bigger part of the prison system, the recidivism rate is barely 20% Do our criminals have more varied reasons for offending than theirs?No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it. That's not going to stop all such offences but it is probably a factor. It's not as black and white. Do you want to pay much more tax pounds to give to other sectors in society as an incentive to not commit crime. Or do you want to deal with those that do commit crime in a punitive fashion. Different approaches to the same problem, but we have to deal with the one we currently have. As for the Netherlands TBS programme, psychological approaches do not work in every circumstance, things like sex offences are one such area, Mrs x" Given that the UK is well above the European average for prison rates do you infer that most countries have a more generous benefits system than ours? Or that just because rehabilitation doesn’t work for all types of prisoners it shouldn’t be tried with any? Just because something isn’t easy does not mean it shouldn’t be attempted. It’s no accident that countries which invest in rehabilitation of prisoners have lower recidivism rates. Just as it’s no accident that countries which work to reduce poverty have a lower offending rate. As for tax, well that’s a whole other discussion, but given that I subscribe to the idea that Britain is a poor country with some very rich people living in it, I think you can see what I think about where the money should come from. I would however pay more tax to ensure public services were better funded, be they prisons or hospitals. | |||
"Loads of uninhabited Scottish islands stick them on them!" Don’t ruin all that lovely nature with criminals We need a giant pot of eternal soup. 1 chance. Break the law again and in the pot you go. | |||
"No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it. I don't think they have 50k £ equivalent per year!! The £:NOK is about 1:13.4 They get "A standard amount that is used to calculate benefits and pensions, and which is set on 1 May each year. As of 1 May 2021, the Basic Amount is NOK 106 399, or about EUR 10 672." That's from ec.europa.eu/ Also their benefit system is based on your income during the previous 12 months; I'm not sure how they manage long term unemployment. And lets put it this way; if by some magic our government said overnight; everyone can get £50k on benefits; who would bother go to work? You can't compare unless you factor in things like the cost of living; tax revenues; GDP and many others things I don't even understand! " This is the rate as per 2022, and its is a maximum, which I did say, so not everyone will get this... "If you lose your job, you can apply for a daily allowance. This allowance is calculated from your previous income. You can receive up to 62,4 percent of your previous income, but only up to 6 times G (base amount), which currently is around NOK 668 000 (in 2022). The base amount is adjusted each year” From Teknas website So I did a quick currency exchange calculation which stated 668000 Nok is equivalent to £49,859. If I got this wrong I apologise, Mrs x | |||
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" So I did a quick currency exchange calculation which stated 668000 Nok is equivalent to £49,859. If I got this wrong I apologise, Mrs x" I'm not an expert on their benefit system. Remember that benefit is based on your previous 12months employment. So someone who earned £100k could get get about £60k; I think it's on a reducing basis (year by year). But that person was hardly likely to fall into a life of crime; which is what this thread was really about! I do take your point. So we don't need to split hairs. However, we have the benefit system that we have. I'm sure everyone would like it to be more generous. x | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task. I was under the impression that the Netherlands had invested heavily in rehabilitation, and in fact the whole philosophy of it’s judicial system was to both prevent people going to prison in the first place and to provide rehabilitation to anyone who commits a crime. This may explain why their prison rate is 54 per 100,000 and their recidivism is at 40% and dropping while ours are 132 per 100,000 and 63%. In Norway, where rehabilitation is an even bigger part of the prison system, the recidivism rate is barely 20% Do our criminals have more varied reasons for offending than theirs?No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it. That's not going to stop all such offences but it is probably a factor. It's not as black and white. Do you want to pay much more tax pounds to give to other sectors in society as an incentive to not commit crime. Or do you want to deal with those that do commit crime in a punitive fashion. Different approaches to the same problem, but we have to deal with the one we currently have. As for the Netherlands TBS programme, psychological approaches do not work in every circumstance, things like sex offences are one such area, Mrs x Given that the UK is well above the European average for prison rates do you infer that most countries have a more generous benefits system than ours? Or that just because rehabilitation doesn’t work for all types of prisoners it shouldn’t be tried with any? Just because something isn’t easy does not mean it shouldn’t be attempted. It’s no accident that countries which invest in rehabilitation of prisoners have lower recidivism rates. Just as it’s no accident that countries which work to reduce poverty have a lower offending rate. As for tax, well that’s a whole other discussion, but given that I subscribe to the idea that Britain is a poor country with some very rich people living in it, I think you can see what I think about where the money should come from. I would however pay more tax to ensure public services were better funded, be they prisons or hospitals." I must state that this is not my opinion. I believe that a Universal Benefit should be introduced to tackle poverty and the lack of employment that may follow the introduction of AI. I believe all recreational drugs should be legalised for a variety of reasons. I agree that certain changes within our society would reduce the prison population and I have nothing against this. I do have a problem with rehabilitation in that it doesn't work. What other area would you plow millions into to achieve such poor results. Use that money to supply better conditions for the majority of the prison population and more staff for everyone's safety. If you look at the numbers there are over 80,000 in prison in England, with about 22,000 staff. The population of the UK is now over 70 million. So looking at that, and to simplify the maths say the prison population is 70,000 That means that only 0.1% of the population is in jail at any one time. So even if 100% reoffended that's a total of 70,000 in jail and 70,000 waiting to go to jail. So that means that this problem regarding the prison population only applies to 0.2% of the countries population. 99.98% of the general public will not be in jail or go to jail. Now I know the maths is a little skewed by its reduction in numbers by 10k but its not that far out. In fact the whole population and staff, could fit inside Wembley Stadium. It has a roof, an exercise field and you could feed everyone pies and hotdogs. So that's the size of the problem, one stadiums worth, Mrs x | |||
" So I did a quick currency exchange calculation which stated 668000 Nok is equivalent to £49,859. If I got this wrong I apologise, Mrs x I'm not an expert on their benefit system. Remember that benefit is based on your previous 12months employment. So someone who earned £100k could get get about £60k; I think it's on a reducing basis (year by year). But that person was hardly likely to fall into a life of crime; which is what this thread was really about! I do take your point. So we don't need to split hairs. However, we have the benefit system that we have. I'm sure everyone would like it to be more generous. x" Lots of millionaires commit crime. The average wage in Norway is 637000 Nok pa, so most would get the higher benefit and not the basic benefit you mentioned. Average Joe's may not go 'on the rob' if they were recieving this. Other things such as receiving 52 weeks full sick pay means individuals are not under immediate financial pressure should they become ill, Mrs x | |||
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"Would the prisoners be better employed if they were put in the army ? " No. | |||
"There are many issues regarding prisons all over the UK not just Scotland. However if we tackled the problems in society this would reduce the prison population. The issue is not the prisons but how people end up there. Yes we will always have people who will commit crime. However if we tackled the reasons this would reduce the need for prison places. There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x. Where do we lock them all away of we're running out of space? Who will lock them away if we're woefully understaffed to critically unsafe levels? Evie it is definitely underfunded and understaffed, no doubt. This should be addressed, but the problem is not that big. It can be fixed, Mrs x " Please go tell my bosses how  | |||
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"Like you said; millionaires commit crime so money isn't always the major factor; surely that's the whole point! Interestingly there were 105,000 theft, burglary and robbery crimes, 27,00 "Economic" crimes in Norway in 2022! So what does that tell us?" Norway gives more to its population, Mrs x | |||
"Would the prisoners be better employed if they were put in the army ? " Might do them some good to learn a few skills and some routine/organisation Not a terrible idea | |||
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"Like you said; millionaires commit crime so money isn't always the major factor; surely that's the whole point! Interestingly there were 105,000 theft, burglary and robbery crimes, 27,00 "Economic" crimes in Norway in 2022! So what does that tell us?" Sorry do you mean there was 132000 crimes in total or just 27000 committed in Norway?, Mrs x | |||
"Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would have grown up abit by now." And yet that’s not everyone. I’ve been working with a guy for ages and if he hadn’t told me himself that he once did time I wouldn’t have believed it. Some people can’t or won’t change, and some can and do. Why should the latter suffer because of the former and because some in society cant be bothered to give them the chance? | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task. I was under the impression that the Netherlands had invested heavily in rehabilitation, and in fact the whole philosophy of it’s judicial system was to both prevent people going to prison in the first place and to provide rehabilitation to anyone who commits a crime. This may explain why their prison rate is 54 per 100,000 and their recidivism is at 40% and dropping while ours are 132 per 100,000 and 63%. In Norway, where rehabilitation is an even bigger part of the prison system, the recidivism rate is barely 20% Do our criminals have more varied reasons for offending than theirs?No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it. That's not going to stop all such offences but it is probably a factor. It's not as black and white. Do you want to pay much more tax pounds to give to other sectors in society as an incentive to not commit crime. Or do you want to deal with those that do commit crime in a punitive fashion. Different approaches to the same problem, but we have to deal with the one we currently have. As for the Netherlands TBS programme, psychological approaches do not work in every circumstance, things like sex offences are one such area, Mrs x Given that the UK is well above the European average for prison rates do you infer that most countries have a more generous benefits system than ours? Or that just because rehabilitation doesn’t work for all types of prisoners it shouldn’t be tried with any? Just because something isn’t easy does not mean it shouldn’t be attempted. It’s no accident that countries which invest in rehabilitation of prisoners have lower recidivism rates. Just as it’s no accident that countries which work to reduce poverty have a lower offending rate. As for tax, well that’s a whole other discussion, but given that I subscribe to the idea that Britain is a poor country with some very rich people living in it, I think you can see what I think about where the money should come from. I would however pay more tax to ensure public services were better funded, be they prisons or hospitals.I must state that this is not my opinion. I believe that a Universal Benefit should be introduced to tackle poverty and the lack of employment that may follow the introduction of AI. I believe all recreational drugs should be legalised for a variety of reasons. I agree that certain changes within our society would reduce the prison population and I have nothing against this. I do have a problem with rehabilitation in that it doesn't work. What other area would you plow millions into to achieve such poor results. Use that money to supply better conditions for the majority of the prison population and more staff for everyone's safety. If you look at the numbers there are over 80,000 in prison in England, with about 22,000 staff. The population of the UK is now over 70 million. So looking at that, and to simplify the maths say the prison population is 70,000 That means that only 0.1% of the population is in jail at any one time. So even if 100% reoffended that's a total of 70,000 in jail and 70,000 waiting to go to jail. So that means that this problem regarding the prison population only applies to 0.2% of the countries population. 99.98% of the general public will not be in jail or go to jail. Now I know the maths is a little skewed by its reduction in numbers by 10k but its not that far out. In fact the whole population and staff, could fit inside Wembley Stadium. It has a roof, an exercise field and you could feed everyone pies and hotdogs. So that's the size of the problem, one stadiums worth, Mrs x" You keep saying that rehabilitation doesn’t work but you don’t offer any evidence for it, just saying it again and again doesn’t make it true. Despite the fact that countries which invest in rehabilitation not only have much lower prison population but also much lower reoffending rates, you just keep saying rehabilitation doesn’t work. Do you have anything other than an opinion? Also, it’s not the same people who are in prison all the time, people leave prison and others go in. So your calculations are really quite odd. Mr x | |||
"Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would have grown up abit by now. And yet that’s not everyone. I’ve been working with a guy for ages and if he hadn’t told me himself that he once did time I wouldn’t have believed it. Some people can’t or won’t change, and some can and do. Why should the latter suffer because of the former and because some in society cant be bothered to give them the chance?" Adults released from custodial sentences of less than 12 months had a proven reoffending rate of 53.9%. On the gov website - these are the ones I'm talking about. | |||
"It's a difficult one. Don't think there is a one size fits all answer either. Sure for some going to prison will be a wake up call; an experience they never want to repeat. For others it will be an occupational hazard to paraphrase from Porridge. Would tougher sentences act as a deterrent, stricter parole conditions/release on licence? Would a more softly, softly approach with a more equitable society work? Some may leave better educated; others will learn how to commit more serious crimes. I don't think anyone has the answer; either to stop reoffending or for rehabilitation. Norway’s reoffending rate is less than 1/3 of ours, so they must surely have some answers?" | |||
"It's a difficult one. Don't think there is a one size fits all answer either. Sure for some going to prison will be a wake up call; an experience they never want to repeat. For others it will be an occupational hazard to paraphrase from Porridge. Would tougher sentences act as a deterrent, stricter parole conditions/release on licence? Would a more softly, softly approach with a more equitable society work? Some may leave better educated; others will learn how to commit more serious crimes. I don't think anyone has the answer; either to stop reoffending or for rehabilitation. Norway’s reoffending rate is less than 1/3 of ours, so they must surely have some answers? "I just don't think you can compare. Culture, upbringing, values all intangible things, how do you measure them or instill them. A population of only 5million people against 70million; all these things come into play. I'm no expert and no doubt people have looked into it. Surely if it was simple just copy what they do. Prison population drops to 5000 and reoffending becomes negligible. | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task. I was under the impression that the Netherlands had invested heavily in rehabilitation, and in fact the whole philosophy of it’s judicial system was to both prevent people going to prison in the first place and to provide rehabilitation to anyone who commits a crime. This may explain why their prison rate is 54 per 100,000 and their recidivism is at 40% and dropping while ours are 132 per 100,000 and 63%. In Norway, where rehabilitation is an even bigger part of the prison system, the recidivism rate is barely 20% Do our criminals have more varied reasons for offending than theirs?No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it. That's not going to stop all such offences but it is probably a factor. It's not as black and white. Do you want to pay much more tax pounds to give to other sectors in society as an incentive to not commit crime. Or do you want to deal with those that do commit crime in a punitive fashion. Different approaches to the same problem, but we have to deal with the one we currently have. As for the Netherlands TBS programme, psychological approaches do not work in every circumstance, things like sex offences are one such area, Mrs x Given that the UK is well above the European average for prison rates do you infer that most countries have a more generous benefits system than ours? Or that just because rehabilitation doesn’t work for all types of prisoners it shouldn’t be tried with any? Just because something isn’t easy does not mean it shouldn’t be attempted. It’s no accident that countries which invest in rehabilitation of prisoners have lower recidivism rates. Just as it’s no accident that countries which work to reduce poverty have a lower offending rate. As for tax, well that’s a whole other discussion, but given that I subscribe to the idea that Britain is a poor country with some very rich people living in it, I think you can see what I think about where the money should come from. I would however pay more tax to ensure public services were better funded, be they prisons or hospitals.I must state that this is not my opinion. I believe that a Universal Benefit should be introduced to tackle poverty and the lack of employment that may follow the introduction of AI. I believe all recreational drugs should be legalised for a variety of reasons. I agree that certain changes within our society would reduce the prison population and I have nothing against this. I do have a problem with rehabilitation in that it doesn't work. What other area would you plow millions into to achieve such poor results. Use that money to supply better conditions for the majority of the prison population and more staff for everyone's safety. If you look at the numbers there are over 80,000 in prison in England, with about 22,000 staff. The population of the UK is now over 70 million. So looking at that, and to simplify the maths say the prison population is 70,000 That means that only 0.1% of the population is in jail at any one time. So even if 100% reoffended that's a total of 70,000 in jail and 70,000 waiting to go to jail. So that means that this problem regarding the prison population only applies to 0.2% of the countries population. 99.98% of the general public will not be in jail or go to jail. Now I know the maths is a little skewed by its reduction in numbers by 10k but its not that far out. In fact the whole population and staff, could fit inside Wembley Stadium. It has a roof, an exercise field and you could feed everyone pies and hotdogs. So that's the size of the problem, one stadiums worth, Mrs x You keep saying that rehabilitation doesn’t work but you don’t offer any evidence for it, just saying it again and again doesn’t make it true. Despite the fact that countries which invest in rehabilitation not only have much lower prison population but also much lower reoffending rates, you just keep saying rehabilitation doesn’t work. Do you have anything other than an opinion? Also, it’s not the same people who are in prison all the time, people leave prison and others go in. So your calculations are really quite odd. Mr x" I'm quite aware that the prison population is always in flux, I just tried to illustrate that even with a 100% reopening rate the scale of the problem is very small when you consider that potentially prison will only ever impact on about 0.2% of our population. Nothing odd about that. Like I said before I don't necessarily agree with the system but it's how society deals with their population that has a greater effect upon its prison population than rehabilitation. Certain societies appear to look after their citizens welfare more than others, I've already mentioned Norways welfare system and how I believe that such an approach impacts on their penal population. However more draconian approaches also produce similar figures. Places like Singapore have low crime rates but administer punitive punishments for the smallest offences, the Rattan for littering comes to mind. Other more dictatorial regimes have even less crime. But you have to way up the cost to society and the individuals themselves, in choosing a penal system for the society you live in. I am only commenting on our system and its clear it doesn't work. It's been going on for over 100 years and has never produced any great results. In this case why squander tax payers money on a small fraction of society who have already decided to go against this society. Prison works, spend this money on healthcare, housing, education anything for the betterment of society for those who want to live peacefully and law abiding lives, what's so wrong with that?, Mrs x | |||
"It's a difficult one. Don't think there is a one size fits all answer either. Sure for some going to prison will be a wake up call; an experience they never want to repeat. For others it will be an occupational hazard to paraphrase from Porridge. Would tougher sentences act as a deterrent, stricter parole conditions/release on licence? Would a more softly, softly approach with a more equitable society work? Some may leave better educated; others will learn how to commit more serious crimes. I don't think anyone has the answer; either to stop reoffending or for rehabilitation. Norway’s reoffending rate is less than 1/3 of ours, so they must surely have some answers?
I just don't think you can compare. Culture, upbringing, values all intangible things, how do you measure them or instill them. A population of only 5million people against 70million; all these things come into play.
I'm no expert and no doubt people have looked into it. Surely if it was simple just copy what they do. Prison population drops to 5000 and reoffending becomes negligible."To change a whole way of living for the sake of a tiny fraction of the population does not seem very practical. You may see benefits in thus area but Norway has a higher suicide rate rate than the UK, which would indicate not everything is better in Norway, Mrs x | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task. I was under the impression that the Netherlands had invested heavily in rehabilitation, and in fact the whole philosophy of it’s judicial system was to both prevent people going to prison in the first place and to provide rehabilitation to anyone who commits a crime. This may explain why their prison rate is 54 per 100,000 and their recidivism is at 40% and dropping while ours are 132 per 100,000 and 63%. In Norway, where rehabilitation is an even bigger part of the prison system, the recidivism rate is barely 20% Do our criminals have more varied reasons for offending than theirs?No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it. That's not going to stop all such offences but it is probably a factor. It's not as black and white. Do you want to pay much more tax pounds to give to other sectors in society as an incentive to not commit crime. Or do you want to deal with those that do commit crime in a punitive fashion. Different approaches to the same problem, but we have to deal with the one we currently have. As for the Netherlands TBS programme, psychological approaches do not work in every circumstance, things like sex offences are one such area, Mrs x Given that the UK is well above the European average for prison rates do you infer that most countries have a more generous benefits system than ours? Or that just because rehabilitation doesn’t work for all types of prisoners it shouldn’t be tried with any? Just because something isn’t easy does not mean it shouldn’t be attempted. It’s no accident that countries which invest in rehabilitation of prisoners have lower recidivism rates. Just as it’s no accident that countries which work to reduce poverty have a lower offending rate. As for tax, well that’s a whole other discussion, but given that I subscribe to the idea that Britain is a poor country with some very rich people living in it, I think you can see what I think about where the money should come from. I would however pay more tax to ensure public services were better funded, be they prisons or hospitals.I must state that this is not my opinion. I believe that a Universal Benefit should be introduced to tackle poverty and the lack of employment that may follow the introduction of AI. I believe all recreational drugs should be legalised for a variety of reasons. I agree that certain changes within our society would reduce the prison population and I have nothing against this. I do have a problem with rehabilitation in that it doesn't work. What other area would you plow millions into to achieve such poor results. Use that money to supply better conditions for the majority of the prison population and more staff for everyone's safety. If you look at the numbers there are over 80,000 in prison in England, with about 22,000 staff. The population of the UK is now over 70 million. So looking at that, and to simplify the maths say the prison population is 70,000 That means that only 0.1% of the population is in jail at any one time. So even if 100% reoffended that's a total of 70,000 in jail and 70,000 waiting to go to jail. So that means that this problem regarding the prison population only applies to 0.2% of the countries population. 99.98% of the general public will not be in jail or go to jail. Now I know the maths is a little skewed by its reduction in numbers by 10k but its not that far out. In fact the whole population and staff, could fit inside Wembley Stadium. It has a roof, an exercise field and you could feed everyone pies and hotdogs. So that's the size of the problem, one stadiums worth, Mrs x You keep saying that rehabilitation doesn’t work but you don’t offer any evidence for it, just saying it again and again doesn’t make it true. Despite the fact that countries which invest in rehabilitation not only have much lower prison population but also much lower reoffending rates, you just keep saying rehabilitation doesn’t work. Do you have anything other than an opinion? Also, it’s not the same people who are in prison all the time, people leave prison and others go in. So your calculations are really quite odd. Mr x I'm quite aware that the prison population is always in flux, I just tried to illustrate that even with a 100% reopening rate the scale of the problem is very small when you consider that potentially prison will only ever impact on about 0.2% of our population. Nothing odd about that. Like I said before I don't necessarily agree with the system but it's how society deals with their population that has a greater effect upon its prison population than rehabilitation. Certain societies appear to look after their citizens welfare more than others, I've already mentioned Norways welfare system and how I believe that such an approach impacts on their penal population. However more draconian approaches also produce similar figures. Places like Singapore have low crime rates but administer punitive punishments for the smallest offences, the Rattan for littering comes to mind. Other more dictatorial regimes have even less crime. But you have to way up the cost to society and the individuals themselves, in choosing a penal system for the society you live in. I am only commenting on our system and its clear it doesn't work. It's been going on for over 100 years and has never produced any great results. In this case why squander tax payers money on a small fraction of society who have already decided to go against this society. Prison works, spend this money on healthcare, housing, education anything for the betterment of society for those who want to live peacefully and law abiding lives, what's so wrong with that?, Mrs x " You’ve still not explained why rehabilitation doesn’t work, nor provided any evidence that it doesn’t. | |||
"It's a difficult one. Don't think there is a one size fits all answer either. Sure for some going to prison will be a wake up call; an experience they never want to repeat. For others it will be an occupational hazard to paraphrase from Porridge. Would tougher sentences act as a deterrent, stricter parole conditions/release on licence? Would a more softly, softly approach with a more equitable society work? Some may leave better educated; others will learn how to commit more serious crimes. I don't think anyone has the answer; either to stop reoffending or for rehabilitation. Norway’s reoffending rate is less than 1/3 of ours, so they must surely have some answers?
I just don't think you can compare. Culture, upbringing, values all intangible things, how do you measure them or instill them. A population of only 5million people against 70million; all these things come into play.
I'm no expert and no doubt people have looked into it. Surely if it was simple just copy what they do. Prison population drops to 5000 and reoffending becomes negligible."It’s not just Norway, there are many many countries which have lower prison (per capita) populations and less recidivism. Germany, for instance, has less than half the per capita prison rate we have, with a population of 83,000,000. | |||
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"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task. I was under the impression that the Netherlands had invested heavily in rehabilitation, and in fact the whole philosophy of it’s judicial system was to both prevent people going to prison in the first place and to provide rehabilitation to anyone who commits a crime. This may explain why their prison rate is 54 per 100,000 and their recidivism is at 40% and dropping while ours are 132 per 100,000 and 63%. In Norway, where rehabilitation is an even bigger part of the prison system, the recidivism rate is barely 20% Do our criminals have more varied reasons for offending than theirs?No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it. That's not going to stop all such offences but it is probably a factor. It's not as black and white. Do you want to pay much more tax pounds to give to other sectors in society as an incentive to not commit crime. Or do you want to deal with those that do commit crime in a punitive fashion. Different approaches to the same problem, but we have to deal with the one we currently have. As for the Netherlands TBS programme, psychological approaches do not work in every circumstance, things like sex offences are one such area, Mrs x Given that the UK is well above the European average for prison rates do you infer that most countries have a more generous benefits system than ours? Or that just because rehabilitation doesn’t work for all types of prisoners it shouldn’t be tried with any? Just because something isn’t easy does not mean it shouldn’t be attempted. It’s no accident that countries which invest in rehabilitation of prisoners have lower recidivism rates. Just as it’s no accident that countries which work to reduce poverty have a lower offending rate. As for tax, well that’s a whole other discussion, but given that I subscribe to the idea that Britain is a poor country with some very rich people living in it, I think you can see what I think about where the money should come from. I would however pay more tax to ensure public services were better funded, be they prisons or hospitals.I must state that this is not my opinion. I believe that a Universal Benefit should be introduced to tackle poverty and the lack of employment that may follow the introduction of AI. I believe all recreational drugs should be legalised for a variety of reasons. I agree that certain changes within our society would reduce the prison population and I have nothing against this. I do have a problem with rehabilitation in that it doesn't work. What other area would you plow millions into to achieve such poor results. Use that money to supply better conditions for the majority of the prison population and more staff for everyone's safety. If you look at the numbers there are over 80,000 in prison in England, with about 22,000 staff. The population of the UK is now over 70 million. So looking at that, and to simplify the maths say the prison population is 70,000 That means that only 0.1% of the population is in jail at any one time. So even if 100% reoffended that's a total of 70,000 in jail and 70,000 waiting to go to jail. So that means that this problem regarding the prison population only applies to 0.2% of the countries population. 99.98% of the general public will not be in jail or go to jail. Now I know the maths is a little skewed by its reduction in numbers by 10k but its not that far out. In fact the whole population and staff, could fit inside Wembley Stadium. It has a roof, an exercise field and you could feed everyone pies and hotdogs. So that's the size of the problem, one stadiums worth, Mrs x You keep saying that rehabilitation doesn’t work but you don’t offer any evidence for it, just saying it again and again doesn’t make it true. Despite the fact that countries which invest in rehabilitation not only have much lower prison population but also much lower reoffending rates, you just keep saying rehabilitation doesn’t work. Do you have anything other than an opinion? Also, it’s not the same people who are in prison all the time, people leave prison and others go in. So your calculations are really quite odd. Mr x I'm quite aware that the prison population is always in flux, I just tried to illustrate that even with a 100% reopening rate the scale of the problem is very small when you consider that potentially prison will only ever impact on about 0.2% of our population. Nothing odd about that. Like I said before I don't necessarily agree with the system but it's how society deals with their population that has a greater effect upon its prison population than rehabilitation. Certain societies appear to look after their citizens welfare more than others, I've already mentioned Norways welfare system and how I believe that such an approach impacts on their penal population. However more draconian approaches also produce similar figures. Places like Singapore have low crime rates but administer punitive punishments for the smallest offences, the Rattan for littering comes to mind. Other more dictatorial regimes have even less crime. But you have to way up the cost to society and the individuals themselves, in choosing a penal system for the society you live in. I am only commenting on our system and its clear it doesn't work. It's been going on for over 100 years and has never produced any great results. In this case why squander tax payers money on a small fraction of society who have already decided to go against this society. Prison works, spend this money on healthcare, housing, education anything for the betterment of society for those who want to live peacefully and law abiding lives, what's so wrong with that?, Mrs x You’ve still not explained why rehabilitation doesn’t work, nor provided any evidence that it doesn’t." You want me to detail all the rehabilitation models that have been introduced and failed. How far should I go back and who shall we look at? John Howard and the Howard League, Vidler, Patterson, Butler, all of the great reformers. Give me a break. In this thread the reoffending rates have been quoted as a metric that prison in this country does not work in the UK so far as rehabilitation. That's correct and that's one of the reasons that I say rehabilitation does not work here, Mrs x | |||
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"Reports from the lady in charge of Prisons in Scotland. They may have to say enough is enough and either release some to make room for new prisoners or refuse any more. Tom says every single town should have its own prison. Time to build more prisons and get existing prisoners to help build it. What's going on here. It's all over the news" And jibbets... And gallows... And stocks... Although actually be cool if they could build some roads without holes in them | |||
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"Send them to Australia." I wonder why no-one ever thought of that before. Oh no, hang on... | |||
"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task. I was under the impression that the Netherlands had invested heavily in rehabilitation, and in fact the whole philosophy of it’s judicial system was to both prevent people going to prison in the first place and to provide rehabilitation to anyone who commits a crime. This may explain why their prison rate is 54 per 100,000 and their recidivism is at 40% and dropping while ours are 132 per 100,000 and 63%. In Norway, where rehabilitation is an even bigger part of the prison system, the recidivism rate is barely 20% Do our criminals have more varied reasons for offending than theirs?No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it. That's not going to stop all such offences but it is probably a factor. It's not as black and white. Do you want to pay much more tax pounds to give to other sectors in society as an incentive to not commit crime. Or do you want to deal with those that do commit crime in a punitive fashion. Different approaches to the same problem, but we have to deal with the one we currently have. As for the Netherlands TBS programme, psychological approaches do not work in every circumstance, things like sex offences are one such area, Mrs x Given that the UK is well above the European average for prison rates do you infer that most countries have a more generous benefits system than ours? Or that just because rehabilitation doesn’t work for all types of prisoners it shouldn’t be tried with any? Just because something isn’t easy does not mean it shouldn’t be attempted. It’s no accident that countries which invest in rehabilitation of prisoners have lower recidivism rates. Just as it’s no accident that countries which work to reduce poverty have a lower offending rate. As for tax, well that’s a whole other discussion, but given that I subscribe to the idea that Britain is a poor country with some very rich people living in it, I think you can see what I think about where the money should come from. I would however pay more tax to ensure public services were better funded, be they prisons or hospitals.I must state that this is not my opinion. I believe that a Universal Benefit should be introduced to tackle poverty and the lack of employment that may follow the introduction of AI. I believe all recreational drugs should be legalised for a variety of reasons. I agree that certain changes within our society would reduce the prison population and I have nothing against this. I do have a problem with rehabilitation in that it doesn't work. What other area would you plow millions into to achieve such poor results. Use that money to supply better conditions for the majority of the prison population and more staff for everyone's safety. If you look at the numbers there are over 80,000 in prison in England, with about 22,000 staff. The population of the UK is now over 70 million. So looking at that, and to simplify the maths say the prison population is 70,000 That means that only 0.1% of the population is in jail at any one time. So even if 100% reoffended that's a total of 70,000 in jail and 70,000 waiting to go to jail. So that means that this problem regarding the prison population only applies to 0.2% of the countries population. 99.98% of the general public will not be in jail or go to jail. Now I know the maths is a little skewed by its reduction in numbers by 10k but its not that far out. In fact the whole population and staff, could fit inside Wembley Stadium. It has a roof, an exercise field and you could feed everyone pies and hotdogs. So that's the size of the problem, one stadiums worth, Mrs x You keep saying that rehabilitation doesn’t work but you don’t offer any evidence for it, just saying it again and again doesn’t make it true. Despite the fact that countries which invest in rehabilitation not only have much lower prison population but also much lower reoffending rates, you just keep saying rehabilitation doesn’t work. Do you have anything other than an opinion? Also, it’s not the same people who are in prison all the time, people leave prison and others go in. So your calculations are really quite odd. Mr x I'm quite aware that the prison population is always in flux, I just tried to illustrate that even with a 100% reopening rate the scale of the problem is very small when you consider that potentially prison will only ever impact on about 0.2% of our population. Nothing odd about that. Like I said before I don't necessarily agree with the system but it's how society deals with their population that has a greater effect upon its prison population than rehabilitation. Certain societies appear to look after their citizens welfare more than others, I've already mentioned Norways welfare system and how I believe that such an approach impacts on their penal population. However more draconian approaches also produce similar figures. Places like Singapore have low crime rates but administer punitive punishments for the smallest offences, the Rattan for littering comes to mind. Other more dictatorial regimes have even less crime. But you have to way up the cost to society and the individuals themselves, in choosing a penal system for the society you live in. I am only commenting on our system and its clear it doesn't work. It's been going on for over 100 years and has never produced any great results. In this case why squander tax payers money on a small fraction of society who have already decided to go against this society. Prison works, spend this money on healthcare, housing, education anything for the betterment of society for those who want to live peacefully and law abiding lives, what's so wrong with that?, Mrs x You’ve still not explained why rehabilitation doesn’t work, nor provided any evidence that it doesn’t.You want me to detail all the rehabilitation models that have been introduced and failed. How far should I go back and who shall we look at? John Howard and the Howard League, Vidler, Patterson, Butler, all of the great reformers. Give me a break. In this thread the reoffending rates have been quoted as a metric that prison in this country does not work in the UK so far as rehabilitation. That's correct and that's one of the reasons that I say rehabilitation does not work here, Mrs x" Have you considered that the reason it hasn’t worked is because we don’t invest in it properly, because a) it’s a longer term investment and we are stupidly short sighted, and b) people in this country think you are sent to prison for punishment, rather than as a punishment. | |||
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"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task. I was under the impression that the Netherlands had invested heavily in rehabilitation, and in fact the whole philosophy of it’s judicial system was to both prevent people going to prison in the first place and to provide rehabilitation to anyone who commits a crime. This may explain why their prison rate is 54 per 100,000 and their recidivism is at 40% and dropping while ours are 132 per 100,000 and 63%. In Norway, where rehabilitation is an even bigger part of the prison system, the recidivism rate is barely 20% Do our criminals have more varied reasons for offending than theirs?No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it. That's not going to stop all such offences but it is probably a factor. It's not as black and white. Do you want to pay much more tax pounds to give to other sectors in society as an incentive to not commit crime. Or do you want to deal with those that do commit crime in a punitive fashion. Different approaches to the same problem, but we have to deal with the one we currently have. As for the Netherlands TBS programme, psychological approaches do not work in every circumstance, things like sex offences are one such area, Mrs x Given that the UK is well above the European average for prison rates do you infer that most countries have a more generous benefits system than ours? Or that just because rehabilitation doesn’t work for all types of prisoners it shouldn’t be tried with any? Just because something isn’t easy does not mean it shouldn’t be attempted. It’s no accident that countries which invest in rehabilitation of prisoners have lower recidivism rates. Just as it’s no accident that countries which work to reduce poverty have a lower offending rate. As for tax, well that’s a whole other discussion, but given that I subscribe to the idea that Britain is a poor country with some very rich people living in it, I think you can see what I think about where the money should come from. I would however pay more tax to ensure public services were better funded, be they prisons or hospitals.I must state that this is not my opinion. I believe that a Universal Benefit should be introduced to tackle poverty and the lack of employment that may follow the introduction of AI. I believe all recreational drugs should be legalised for a variety of reasons. I agree that certain changes within our society would reduce the prison population and I have nothing against this. I do have a problem with rehabilitation in that it doesn't work. What other area would you plow millions into to achieve such poor results. Use that money to supply better conditions for the majority of the prison population and more staff for everyone's safety. If you look at the numbers there are over 80,000 in prison in England, with about 22,000 staff. The population of the UK is now over 70 million. So looking at that, and to simplify the maths say the prison population is 70,000 That means that only 0.1% of the population is in jail at any one time. So even if 100% reoffended that's a total of 70,000 in jail and 70,000 waiting to go to jail. So that means that this problem regarding the prison population only applies to 0.2% of the countries population. 99.98% of the general public will not be in jail or go to jail. Now I know the maths is a little skewed by its reduction in numbers by 10k but its not that far out. In fact the whole population and staff, could fit inside Wembley Stadium. It has a roof, an exercise field and you could feed everyone pies and hotdogs. So that's the size of the problem, one stadiums worth, Mrs x You keep saying that rehabilitation doesn’t work but you don’t offer any evidence for it, just saying it again and again doesn’t make it true. Despite the fact that countries which invest in rehabilitation not only have much lower prison population but also much lower reoffending rates, you just keep saying rehabilitation doesn’t work. Do you have anything other than an opinion? Also, it’s not the same people who are in prison all the time, people leave prison and others go in. So your calculations are really quite odd. Mr x I'm quite aware that the prison population is always in flux, I just tried to illustrate that even with a 100% reopening rate the scale of the problem is very small when you consider that potentially prison will only ever impact on about 0.2% of our population. Nothing odd about that. Like I said before I don't necessarily agree with the system but it's how society deals with their population that has a greater effect upon its prison population than rehabilitation. Certain societies appear to look after their citizens welfare more than others, I've already mentioned Norways welfare system and how I believe that such an approach impacts on their penal population. However more draconian approaches also produce similar figures. Places like Singapore have low crime rates but administer punitive punishments for the smallest offences, the Rattan for littering comes to mind. Other more dictatorial regimes have even less crime. But you have to way up the cost to society and the individuals themselves, in choosing a penal system for the society you live in. I am only commenting on our system and its clear it doesn't work. It's been going on for over 100 years and has never produced any great results. In this case why squander tax payers money on a small fraction of society who have already decided to go against this society. Prison works, spend this money on healthcare, housing, education anything for the betterment of society for those who want to live peacefully and law abiding lives, what's so wrong with that?, Mrs x You’ve still not explained why rehabilitation doesn’t work, nor provided any evidence that it doesn’t.You want me to detail all the rehabilitation models that have been introduced and failed. How far should I go back and who shall we look at? John Howard and the Howard League, Vidler, Patterson, Butler, all of the great reformers. Give me a break. In this thread the reoffending rates have been quoted as a metric that prison in this country does not work in the UK so far as rehabilitation. That's correct and that's one of the reasons that I say rehabilitation does not work here, Mrs x Have you considered that the reason it hasn’t worked is because we don’t invest in it properly, because a) it’s a longer term investment and we are stupidly short sighted, and b) people in this country think you are sent to prison for punishment, rather than as a punishment." The response to your questions is not my opinion on how prisons should operate but rather how they operate now and the failings of rehabilitation within this system. Point B) is easiest to discuss. I agree wholeheartedly that in this country prison is viewed as THE punishment for committing crime. You only have to look at the political rhetoric, 'Tough on Crime' and the various buzzwords MPs use to see this. So even though I personally don't agree with our current system, it's existence as a punitive system is legitimate. It's in place through the will of the people who have voted for the parties who advocate this. So this also ties in with point (a, in that it may be political suicide to offer rehabilitation as it would appear country to there promise to be tough on crime, so investment here would be minimal. As for point a)and the cost implications due to it being a longer term investment and it being stupidly short sighted, I again agree with you but not for reasons you suggest. It has many elements as to why rehabilitation, in this current system, does not work. If you look at the majority of the prison population they are men who are poor, ill educated and live in socially deprived areas. So take education, the reason that they are ill educated is that school has failed them from 5yrs old until 18yrs old. If prison educators could address this for these inmates they shouldn't be working in prisons they should be teaching in schools. Poverty will still await inmates upon release, so how do you address this for rehabilitated inmates. Social depravity will also still exist, homelessness, unemployment, all will still impact greatly on inmates upon release. So I believe that to stop reoffending its not rehabilitation in prison that's the key but rehabilitating society as a whole. You will not stop the problems of recurring criminality unless there is something in place to give former inmates to strive towards positively. Give the money from prison rehabilitation to welfare, housing, education and employment opportunities. The reason other countries have lower reoffending rates is that they have also addressed the reasons why people turn to crime in the first place. Unfortunately the UK hasn't, Mrs x | |||
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"There are a few things that can be done but in reality the prison issue is quite small, just lock them away and keep them away from the rest of society and it will be all good, Mrs x Sweet Jesus. You don't agree?, Mrs x If you don’t rehabilitate prisoners, they’ll remain in a life of crime, bouncing in and out of prison their entire life. Yes, prison has to be a place of punishment, but it also has to be a place where people can learn skills, and reintegrate into society. If we throw away the key, we’re removing the chance of that person ever becoming anything other than a convict. Many people I've grown up with have been to prison and 10 years later they are still bouncing in and out of prison, regardless of the help they have received. Its just a laugh and seeing their mates. Some people don't grow up and if prisons were more like "banged up aboard" they would of grown up abit by now. And yet other nations who actively work in rehabilitation see immensely positive impacts. That's not down to rehabilitation, that's down to their judicial system and their attitudes towards imprisonment, Mrs x Could you go into a bit more detail on that? Which countries are you talking about, and how does their judicial system and attitude to imprisonment make a difference, but not rehabilitation?I think the Netherlands, very small prison population where 50% of that population have sentences of about a month. We have more more determinative sentences, we results in prisoners staying incarcerated for longer. Its a different approach to the penal system. Rehabilitation is on a lower to nothing because there isn't a one solution fits all model. We may have committed the same crime but our motivations could be polar opposites. Motivation to stop offending could also be widely different. It's an almost impossible task. I was under the impression that the Netherlands had invested heavily in rehabilitation, and in fact the whole philosophy of it’s judicial system was to both prevent people going to prison in the first place and to provide rehabilitation to anyone who commits a crime. This may explain why their prison rate is 54 per 100,000 and their recidivism is at 40% and dropping while ours are 132 per 100,000 and 63%. In Norway, where rehabilitation is an even bigger part of the prison system, the recidivism rate is barely 20% Do our criminals have more varied reasons for offending than theirs?No but you have to take into account how societies look after their individuals. If you look at Norway there social service support for an individual means they could claim a maximum benefit of almost 50k a year. That's a massive amount compared to those in similar circumstances in the UK and may therefore be a reason an individual is incentives to not commit a financial crime. It's not worth it. That's not going to stop all such offences but it is probably a factor. It's not as black and white. Do you want to pay much more tax pounds to give to other sectors in society as an incentive to not commit crime. Or do you want to deal with those that do commit crime in a punitive fashion. Different approaches to the same problem, but we have to deal with the one we currently have. As for the Netherlands TBS programme, psychological approaches do not work in every circumstance, things like sex offences are one such area, Mrs x Given that the UK is well above the European average for prison rates do you infer that most countries have a more generous benefits system than ours? Or that just because rehabilitation doesn’t work for all types of prisoners it shouldn’t be tried with any? Just because something isn’t easy does not mean it shouldn’t be attempted. It’s no accident that countries which invest in rehabilitation of prisoners have lower recidivism rates. Just as it’s no accident that countries which work to reduce poverty have a lower offending rate. As for tax, well that’s a whole other discussion, but given that I subscribe to the idea that Britain is a poor country with some very rich people living in it, I think you can see what I think about where the money should come from. I would however pay more tax to ensure public services were better funded, be they prisons or hospitals.I must state that this is not my opinion. I believe that a Universal Benefit should be introduced to tackle poverty and the lack of employment that may follow the introduction of AI. I believe all recreational drugs should be legalised for a variety of reasons. I agree that certain changes within our society would reduce the prison population and I have nothing against this. I do have a problem with rehabilitation in that it doesn't work. What other area would you plow millions into to achieve such poor results. Use that money to supply better conditions for the majority of the prison population and more staff for everyone's safety. If you look at the numbers there are over 80,000 in prison in England, with about 22,000 staff. The population of the UK is now over 70 million. So looking at that, and to simplify the maths say the prison population is 70,000 That means that only 0.1% of the population is in jail at any one time. So even if 100% reoffended that's a total of 70,000 in jail and 70,000 waiting to go to jail. So that means that this problem regarding the prison population only applies to 0.2% of the countries population. 99.98% of the general public will not be in jail or go to jail. Now I know the maths is a little skewed by its reduction in numbers by 10k but its not that far out. In fact the whole population and staff, could fit inside Wembley Stadium. It has a roof, an exercise field and you could feed everyone pies and hotdogs. So that's the size of the problem, one stadiums worth, Mrs x You keep saying that rehabilitation doesn’t work but you don’t offer any evidence for it, just saying it again and again doesn’t make it true. Despite the fact that countries which invest in rehabilitation not only have much lower prison population but also much lower reoffending rates, you just keep saying rehabilitation doesn’t work. Do you have anything other than an opinion? Also, it’s not the same people who are in prison all the time, people leave prison and others go in. So your calculations are really quite odd. Mr x I'm quite aware that the prison population is always in flux, I just tried to illustrate that even with a 100% reopening rate the scale of the problem is very small when you consider that potentially prison will only ever impact on about 0.2% of our population. Nothing odd about that. Like I said before I don't necessarily agree with the system but it's how society deals with their population that has a greater effect upon its prison population than rehabilitation. Certain societies appear to look after their citizens welfare more than others, I've already mentioned Norways welfare system and how I believe that such an approach impacts on their penal population. However more draconian approaches also produce similar figures. Places like Singapore have low crime rates but administer punitive punishments for the smallest offences, the Rattan for littering comes to mind. Other more dictatorial regimes have even less crime. But you have to way up the cost to society and the individuals themselves, in choosing a penal system for the society you live in. I am only commenting on our system and its clear it doesn't work. It's been going on for over 100 years and has never produced any great results. In this case why squander tax payers money on a small fraction of society who have already decided to go against this society. Prison works, spend this money on healthcare, housing, education anything for the betterment of society for those who want to live peacefully and law abiding lives, what's so wrong with that?, Mrs x You’ve still not explained why rehabilitation doesn’t work, nor provided any evidence that it doesn’t.You want me to detail all the rehabilitation models that have been introduced and failed. How far should I go back and who shall we look at? John Howard and the Howard League, Vidler, Patterson, Butler, all of the great reformers. Give me a break. In this thread the reoffending rates have been quoted as a metric that prison in this country does not work in the UK so far as rehabilitation. That's correct and that's one of the reasons that I say rehabilitation does not work here, Mrs x Have you considered that the reason it hasn’t worked is because we don’t invest in it properly, because a) it’s a longer term investment and we are stupidly short sighted, and b) people in this country think you are sent to prison for punishment, rather than as a punishment. The response to your questions is not my opinion on how prisons should operate but rather how they operate now and the failings of rehabilitation within this system. Point B) is easiest to discuss. I agree wholeheartedly that in this country prison is viewed as THE punishment for committing crime. You only have to look at the political rhetoric, 'Tough on Crime' and the various buzzwords MPs use to see this. So even though I personally don't agree with our current system, it's existence as a punitive system is legitimate. It's in place through the will of the people who have voted for the parties who advocate this. So this also ties in with point (a, in that it may be political suicide to offer rehabilitation as it would appear country to there promise to be tough on crime, so investment here would be minimal. As for point a)and the cost implications due to it being a longer term investment and it being stupidly short sighted, I again agree with you but not for reasons you suggest. It has many elements as to why rehabilitation, in this current system, does not work. If you look at the majority of the prison population they are men who are poor, ill educated and live in socially deprived areas. So take education, the reason that they are ill educated is that school has failed them from 5yrs old until 18yrs old. If prison educators could address this for these inmates they shouldn't be working in prisons they should be teaching in schools. Poverty will still await inmates upon release, so how do you address this for rehabilitated inmates. Social depravity will also still exist, homelessness, unemployment, all will still impact greatly on inmates upon release. So I believe that to stop reoffending its not rehabilitation in prison that's the key but rehabilitating society as a whole. You will not stop the problems of recurring criminality unless there is something in place to give former inmates to strive towards positively. Give the money from prison rehabilitation to welfare, housing, education and employment opportunities. The reason other countries have lower reoffending rates is that they have also addressed the reasons why people turn to crime in the first place. Unfortunately the UK hasn't, Mrs x" Prevention is always better than the cure | |||
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"There are a lot of prisoners inside who shouldn’t be there in the first place. An example was Sarah Reed. She was in prison awaiting medical reports about whether she was mentally fit to plead after being charged with assaulting a nurse in a secure psychiatric unit. The reports found she was unfit to plead, but she took her own life three days before they were due to be completed. There are plenty more similar examples. Red " She won't be in prison any more though | |||
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