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Hydrogen V Electric Vehicles
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By (user no longer on site) 43 weeks ago
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Unless there’s a huge breakthrough with hydrogen, it’s unlikely to happen
It needs to be kept under immense pressure, or very low temperatures for it to be useful as a fuel
It’s also a very reactive element. Thus means it’ll eat away at anything you put it in. Car fuel tanks, engine parts, and all the piping required for refuelling would need to be replaced fairly often
It’s also a very small molecule. It can leak out of most materials, making it’s useage and storage much more difficult
That’s it for my year 11 GCSE Chem knowledge |
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"Is this like VHS v Betamax.
How many fabbers do not know what VHS v Betamax is?"
No it’s going to be do we want hydrogen bombs driving around everywhere or not.
Now if someone can get a hydrogen fuel cell to work for the masses then maybe
But at the moment it’s really only electric as no or very few hydrogen charging stations around unless you have your own. |
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Electric was necessary to ease the path in to hydrogen. The motors, the batteries are all still needed in a hydrogen car.
We already have hydrogen filling stations in this country, one of the largest based in Sheffield and I have been lucky enough to work with the team that designed it and it is a thing of genius. All electricity generation required by the site is from local site based renewables (mixture of wind & solar), it has storage batteries for when needed, and the excess power generated also runs a 3 story office block along side it.
It is the future and it is coming, the storage is sorted, the tanks on the vehicles are sorted. We have to remember this is not new tech, this has been in live testing on the roads for around 20 years now with, from what I understand, zero issues with either the cars or the filling stations. |
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By (user no longer on site) 43 weeks ago
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The problem is the UK infrastructure is so poor for anything like this. Electric vehicles at the moment are good in theory and for pottering around the local area, but long commutes mean planned stops at locations where charges are available. Even then when you arrive you’ll more often than not come across 3 or 4 universal chargers amongst dozens of Tesla ones.
I’ve had to either wait hours for my turn to charge or drive on searching for another charger whilst watching the battery meter drop.
As I say good idea, poor infrastructure and I can’t see hydrogen being any different to the limitations. |
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Hydrogen is the future. There are about 50 Hydrogen filling stations at the moment (mostly in London). There are 3? Cars and quite a few commercial vehicles that run on it.
As for infrastructure, swap out the petrol and diesel tanks at the existing filling stations for hydrogens.
No charging issues either. Just fill up like the existing petrol/diesel cars.
The problem is that it is REALLY energy inefficient to manufacture the hydrogen at the moment. Needs a lot more investment to sort.
I believe India is currently pushing Hydrogen more than electric. |
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I don't know much about it just look into it every now and again. I love the concept over battery solely as it seems to have so many more applications. I don't really want to see packs of batteries lining airplanes, houses, large building or them being used to shore up UK reserves. It seems a bit 1980's. Hydrogen seems almost a creative industry with its applications.
Here's a few cars either in production or as rolling concepts
Mercedes achieved 1000km with its hydrogen hgv fairly recently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLhQ0oTuebE
Hyundai have a 650hp hydrogen sports car that looks a bit wicked
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCeqP91QUdI
Toyota have the Mirai that's been around for a while, redesigned in 2021, that doesn't look too bad I think it did 500m? There's a new Hydrogen Yaris too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD-Yak8KGuk
Though a concept Peugeot debuted a hydrogen hyper car
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77wJtTHB4mk
There's the hyperion that's another hyper car but not much on it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piYMbQooNMo
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Toyota have spent a lot of money on hydrogen car design and they have been testing an ammonia powered engine too. 2.0l giving 160bhp, with no hydrocarbons being released (althotthere is an issue with other particulates) |
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By (user no longer on site) 43 weeks ago
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"Unless there’s a huge breakthrough with hydrogen, it’s unlikely to happen
It needs to be kept under immense pressure, or very low temperatures for it to be useful as a fuel
It’s also a very reactive element. Thus means it’ll eat away at anything you put it in. Car fuel tanks, engine parts, and all the piping required for refuelling would need to be replaced fairly often
It’s also a very small molecule. It can leak out of most materials, making it’s useage and storage much more difficult
That’s it for my year 11 GCSE Chem knowledge "
it also returns less energy than it takes to produce so its a net looser of a fuel |
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"I remember a New Zealand airline I think that's either making planes now or putting the infrastructure in for short haul flights with hydrogen."
I remember a German airline did something similar many years ago... |
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Some people complain like mad about electric; even though a lot of users can charge at home. Then start again with hydrogen and the roll out would, certainly at first, be much worse.
It possibly is part of the solution eg, commercial use, but can't see it for domestic unless there is a massive push both from manufacturers and infrastructure wise. |
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"Some people complain like mad about electric; even though a lot of users can charge at home. Then start again with hydrogen and the roll out would, certainly at first, be much worse.
It possibly is part of the solution eg, commercial use, but can't see it for domestic unless there is a massive push both from manufacturers and infrastructure wise."
Whether battery, hydrogen or solar there's little investment in any. Wasn't it Britishvolt that secured £100m from the government only to not receive it and end up going bust. It was going to be the largest battery manufacturer in Europe I think. There's likely countless others in every sector that together could make advances away from oil but we're tied at the hip. |
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I'm sure the number of hydrogen pumps has reduced over the last year or so. Morrison and the MFG have agreed for the use of their 300 plus forecourts to be developed for rapid EV charging; some 2.5bn investment.
I think we can see which way the wind is blowing. |
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One of the biggest problems with these electric cars are the trailing wires. What happens when people trip over them at supermarket charging points. Who do they so? And also false claims from people deliberately tripping up over these cables. It's a hazard waiting to happen |
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By *izzy.Woman 43 weeks ago
Stoke area |
"Id be more tempted by a hydrogen car than electric. Plugging in a car just seems stupid though, everything else is about wireless tech 
"
I am used to charging up my toothbrush, powerbank, phone and even my vibrator.
With Electric cars most people charge on their drives whilst they sleep and then they're fine for a few days for local commuting. Seems pretty sensible to me. |
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Jcb already make hydrogen powered engines for their plant machines so they can work in the clean air zones on building sites , they have their own hydrogen making plant on site and the machines work, just as well as diesels |
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The hydrogen issue won't move forward until they start to produce it greenly.
There is potential for creating it from renewables, as they often have lots of power when it's not needed, and convert it to ammonia for ease of storage etc.
The refueling then changes from petrol stations to ammonia stations. No trailing wires, no long waits at services. |
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A recent edition of The "Chemical Engineer" magazine makes a compelling argument that improving battery technology has already destroyed the so called hydrogen economy. In a nutshell "why use electricity to produce hydrogen to burn inefficiently in a vehicle when you can just use the electricity directly?"
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"A recent edition of The "Chemical Engineer" magazine makes a compelling argument that improving battery technology has already destroyed the so called hydrogen economy. In a nutshell "why use electricity to produce hydrogen to burn inefficiently in a vehicle when you can just use the electricity directly?"
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Because we don't always need the energy created by renewables when and where it's created. It's a difficult problem which hopefully they'll find a solution to. |
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"Because we don't always need the energy created by renewables when and where it's created. It's a difficult problem which hopefully they'll find a solution to"
So push it down a wire into a battery? Or push water up a hill in Wales? Or use it to power green machines that convert co2 and water into sugar and oxygen. Or convert scrap iron into steel. All of these are better uses for surplus power than Hydrogen generation.
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"Jcb already make hydrogen powered engines for their plant machines so they can work in the clean air zones on building sites , they have their own hydrogen making plant on site and the machines work, just as well as diesels"
Not quite sure people fancy nipping down to the shop or the school run in a jcb. As said before maybe commercially viable but not the general public. |
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"A recent edition of The "Chemical Engineer" magazine makes a compelling argument that improving battery technology has already destroyed the so called hydrogen economy. In a nutshell "why use electricity to produce hydrogen to burn inefficiently in a vehicle when you can just use the electricity directly?"
"
They don't burn it, it's a hydrogen fuel cell |
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"Because we don't always need the energy created by renewables when and where it's created. It's a difficult problem which hopefully they'll find a solution to"
So push it down a wire into a battery? Or push water up a hill in Wales? Or use it to power green machines that convert co2 and water into sugar and oxygen. Or convert scrap iron into steel. All of these are better uses for surplus power than Hydrogen generation.
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From what I understand, there is either over or undersupply of capacity. All of those you mention are available alternatives as is hydro power. So if those alternatives are a way of either using or storing excess electricity, why so against hydrogen that would do the same only providing an alternative that is not just applied national energy needs like your above examples.
It has airline applications, shipping, industrial, agricultural, vehicular, medical, I think it was trialled cooling data centres. This is not including hydrogen by means of production. At present these are things that have battery as their only source of future energy reserve. |
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I don't see pure electric cars as turning out to be the answer, despite how any in industry went all in. I think we are already seeing aspect of a false dawn in the electric car market. Hydrogen maybe has promise but there is still a lot of hurles to cross to make it practical. And Practical is the key word here, practical is one of the main aspects car users want and at the moment both types fail IMO for a lot of peoples needs.
I see great promise in the refinement of combustion/electric cars. Where the batteries for an electric motor are charged as and when by a small efficient combustion generator and can also be topped up at charging stations. I get again it adds cost and seems a bit much but I think it offers the best compromise between the environment and practical running everywhere. And with current knowledge and technology shouldn't be hard to refine to be incredibly efficient. And with the weight of batteries and current tech in lightweight portable generators shouldn't weigh anymore than another large power capacity electric car. I know it's not a gold plate solution but I see it as being a very effective comprise.
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"The hydrogen issue won't move forward until they start to produce it greenly.
There is potential for creating it from renewables, as they often have lots of power when it's not needed, and convert it to ammonia for ease of storage etc.
The refueling then changes from petrol stations to ammonia stations. No trailing wires, no long waits at services. "
There is already a fully functioning hydrogen filling station in Sheffield that generates its power only by renewables, it also has battery storage to store the excess and it generates that much it powers an office block as well.
"The site, which as a public access refuelling station is the first of its kind in the UK, consists of a 225kW wind turbine coupled directly to an electrolyser, 220kg of hydrogen storage, a hydrogen dispensing unit and a 30kW fuel cell system capable of providing backup power generation for nearby buildings" |
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