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Equality of outcome is more important than equality of opportunity
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Everyone should be given the same opportunities...
Equality of outcomes if it occurs naturally is fine. But not manipulated to be as such. There is many unintended concequences of such an approach. |
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In order for an accurate equality of outcome, there has to be equity when balancing ability.
For example, a dyslexic student might have the same opportunity as a non-dyslexic student (with matching intelligence), but unless there is an adjustment, the results may be very different and not reflect their overall ability to achieve. |
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"I'm not sure this makes sense as a question."
It's just a right wing talking point, a way to attack measures that are taken to encourage more diversity in particular jobs, on the assumption equality of opportunity is as simple as being allowed to apply. |
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By *Vine OP Man 42 weeks ago
The right place |
"What do you mean by equality of outcome? My interpretation is that you mean equality of remuneration, but please correct me if I'm wrong. "
Not necessarily only just remuneration.
Another way of phrasing it would be the difference between equality and equity?
Equality means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or
opportunities. Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances and
allocates the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome
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Hesitate to get involved because I’m not sure if this is deliberately loaded or not.
For the most part, all marginalised or underrepresented groups ever seek is the same levels of access and opportunity.
You can say that everyone has the same level of access but we n know that not to be the actual case in many instances.
Im lucky that I work for an employer that has taken steps to improve access to opportunities but even in my line of work people who are of colour, disabled or LGTBQ have disproportionately worse outcomes in terms of recruitment, access to opportunities and also disciplinary action. |
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"What do you mean by equality of outcome? My interpretation is that you mean equality of remuneration, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Not necessarily only just remuneration.
Another way of phrasing it would be the difference between equality and equity?
Equality means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or
opportunities. Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances and
allocates the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome
"
Still struggling to understand the question, probably because I’ve had a long day and my brain isn’t working.
I think the point you raise about the difference between equality and equity is the right one and is well displayed visually in numerous cartoons available on line depicting the difference between equality, equity and justice  |
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"What do you mean by equality of outcome? My interpretation is that you mean equality of remuneration, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Not necessarily only just remuneration.
Another way of phrasing it would be the difference between equality and equity?
Equality means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or
opportunities. Equity recognizes that each person has different circumstances and
allocates the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome
Still struggling to understand the question, probably because I’ve had a long day and my brain isn’t working.
I think the point you raise about the difference between equality and equity is the right one and is well displayed visually in numerous cartoons available on line depicting the difference between equality, equity and justice "
The pictorial examples are good ones...
I've just been having a chat with someone very senior about the whole equality/equity thing. |
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By *izzy.Woman 42 weeks ago
Stoke area |
In an ideal world everyone should have equal opportunities. The outcome surely depends on the individual, so it will not be equal. But will vary due to the the time or effort or enthusiasm or skill involved.  |
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By (user no longer on site) 42 weeks ago
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This would promote a system whereby it would actually be rewarding to do absolutely nothing as you’d be in just as good a place as the people who do everything. Equality of outcome means nobody has any reason to do as much heavy lifting as they can. It’s the worst economical and sociological idea that has ever entered the minds of our species. |
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"In an ideal world everyone should have equal opportunities. The outcome surely depends on the individual, so it will not be equal. But will vary due to the the time or effort or enthusiasm or skill involved. "
But equal opportunity is putting everyone at the top of the same flight of stairs and asking them to go to the ground floor. Everyone has the opportunity to use the stairs. But not everyone has the ability to use the stairs.
Equity would be providing a variety of ways to get from the upper floor to the ground floor, e.g. stairs, lift and ramp. |
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By (user no longer on site) 42 weeks ago
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"In an ideal world everyone should have equal opportunities. The outcome surely depends on the individual, so it will not be equal. But will vary due to the the time or effort or enthusiasm or skill involved.
But equal opportunity is putting everyone at the top of the same flight of stairs and asking them to go to the ground floor. Everyone has the opportunity to use the stairs. But not everyone has the ability to use the stairs.
Equity would be providing a variety of ways to get from the upper floor to the ground floor, e.g. stairs, lift and ramp. "
Doesn’t it depend how you define opportunity then?
I wouldn’t consider putting everyone at a flight of stairs equal opportunity if someone can’t use the stairs
Things should be put in place so that they can have a fair shot
But the outcome should still be based on measurable metrics, not making sure everyone gets an equal outcome |
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"In an ideal world everyone should have equal opportunities. The outcome surely depends on the individual, so it will not be equal. But will vary due to the the time or effort or enthusiasm or skill involved.
But equal opportunity is putting everyone at the top of the same flight of stairs and asking them to go to the ground floor. Everyone has the opportunity to use the stairs. But not everyone has the ability to use the stairs.
Equity would be providing a variety of ways to get from the upper floor to the ground floor, e.g. stairs, lift and ramp. "
That's getting down to nitty gritty and way past what most people understand as 'equal opportunity'.
Equity in your example would be fair, in other examples it wouldn't be. For example, in employment, should we be equitable towards someone who can't physically be a firefighter? |
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"In an ideal world everyone should have equal opportunities. The outcome surely depends on the individual, so it will not be equal. But will vary due to the the time or effort or enthusiasm or skill involved.
But equal opportunity is putting everyone at the top of the same flight of stairs and asking them to go to the ground floor. Everyone has the opportunity to use the stairs. But not everyone has the ability to use the stairs.
Equity would be providing a variety of ways to get from the upper floor to the ground floor, e.g. stairs, lift and ramp.
Doesn’t it depend how you define opportunity then?
I wouldn’t consider putting everyone at a flight of stairs equal opportunity if someone can’t use the stairs
Things should be put in place so that they can have a fair shot
But the outcome should still be based on measurable metrics, not making sure everyone gets an equal outcome "
Many disabled people could get down those stairs, but not in an efficient way, or only by causing themselves pain or endangering their safety. But they could potentially get from top to bottom, e.g. by bumping down on their bum or by falling down them. They're still getting from top to bottom, which was the task set.
Obviously, that's not a practical or sensible way to complete the task, so instead, we provide alternative (safe) means to complete the task. It's a bit like providing mechanical lifting equipment rather expecting people to lift incredibly heavy loads (which they used to do in the past, perhaps, causing people injury).
Equity is making it feasibly possible for all participants to achieve the task (get downstairs). Each person might achieve it differently, using different tools, but that doesn't matter.
Yes, there are tasks or jobs that require a certain level of physical ability or whatever. Someone mentioned being a firefighter. Of course, not every task or role can be safely and sensibly made equitable. But many roles and tasks CAN, but too many people lack the foresight to see this. |
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By *Vine OP Man 42 weeks ago
The right place |
I think it depends on the situation and context. The example of the stairs, I’d be completely in favour of equality of outcomes. I.e. everyone arrives safely at the bottom.
But that approach would make for very dull olympics.
‘And the result of the hundred metres is a dead heat’. |
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By (user no longer on site) 42 weeks ago
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Everybody should be allowed the same access and opportunities.
The only problem is, it's impossible to enforce this.
Humans are humans, if any person in a hiring process, promotion process, even a fellow work colleague had any issue with any type of demographic, there are millions of ways they could find to hamper said persons opportunities.
In ways that are so subtle it could go unrecognised.
If you had 2 people that wanted to be a doctor and one person was a far better doctor than the other. You want the better doctor, regardless of their race, gender, religion. I think most people agree with that.
You want the best person for the job.
But the question is, was the doctor that wasn't as good given the same opportunities as the other?
Where they treated as fair?
Im not sure how you resolve discrimination affecting peoples oppitunitues unless people become more understanding of eachother and our differences.
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"Strongly disagree.
The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline.
Got to tick that all important DEI box."
Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better? |
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By (user no longer on site) 42 weeks ago
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Disagree strongly.
Reason being that I'm a privileged man. 
Joking aside, I still disagree strongly.
In Utopia, we'd all have equal opportunity. Given that scenario, meritocracy is more my philosophy and outcome should reflect the effort applied.
M |
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By *hilloutMan 42 weeks ago
All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest |
"Strongly disagree.
The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline.
Got to tick that all important DEI box.
Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better?"
If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive". |
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By (user no longer on site) 42 weeks ago
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"Strongly disagree.
The almost fanatical push of equality.....
Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better?"
Thought you'd said 'hesitate to get involved'.
M |
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By (user no longer on site) 42 weeks ago
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"Strongly disagree.
The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline.
Got to tick that all important DEI box.
Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better?
If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive"."
What countries are those?
Not that I doubt, I just can’t think of any countries that are pushing an “equality of outcome” mindset at all |
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By (user no longer on site) 42 weeks ago
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".....
If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive"."
I strongly concur with this. I've lived in some of those countries and the people do not feel repressed. I'd go so far as to say that they defend their governments, vociferously, for the economic miracle that has come to pass for them. Some have voted to keep these 'repressive' governments in power for decades.
M |
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By *hilloutMan 42 weeks ago
All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest |
"Strongly disagree.
The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline.
Got to tick that all important DEI box.
Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better?
If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive".
What countries are those?
Not that I doubt, I just can’t think of any countries that are pushing an “equality of outcome” mindset at all "
He's likely referring to the "axis of evil' Russia, China, Iran, etc. |
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By *hilloutMan 42 weeks ago
All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest |
".....
If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive".
I strongly concur with this. I've lived in some of those countries and the people do not feel repressed. I'd go so far as to say that they defend their governments, vociferously, for the economic miracle that has come to pass for them. Some have voted to keep these 'repressive' governments in power for decades.
M"
People in these countries have a different mindset and outlook. People in the west continue to judge them on "our" standards and conceptions. |
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By (user no longer on site) 42 weeks ago
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"Strongly disagree.
The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline.
Got to tick that all important DEI box.
Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better?
If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive".
What countries are those?
Not that I doubt, I just can’t think of any countries that are pushing an “equality of outcome” mindset at all
He's likely referring to the "axis of evil' Russia, China, Iran, etc."
I don’t think he is because they definitely don’t fit that description
China has a social credit score where your literally scored on actions and dealt with accordingly
I think he means Scandinavian possibly? |
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By (user no longer on site) 42 weeks ago
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"Say whether you Agree strongly, Agree, Agree slightly, Are Neutral, Disagree slightly, Disagree, or Disagree strongly with the claim in the title.
Give reasons for your opinion"
Disagree, not everyone has the same skills or experience |
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By *hilloutMan 42 weeks ago
All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest |
"Strongly disagree.
The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline.
Got to tick that all important DEI box.
Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better?
If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive".
What countries are those?
Not that I doubt, I just can’t think of any countries that are pushing an “equality of outcome” mindset at all
He's likely referring to the "axis of evil' Russia, China, Iran, etc.
I don’t think he is because they definitely don’t fit that description
China has a social credit score where your literally scored on actions and dealt with accordingly
I think he means Scandinavian possibly?"
I meant the repressive eastern regimes. Iran, Russia, China as always depicted as such. They pay no attention to western DEI concepts. |
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By (user no longer on site) 42 weeks ago
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"Strongly disagree.
The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline.
Got to tick that all important DEI box.
Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better?
If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive".
What countries are those?
Not that I doubt, I just can’t think of any countries that are pushing an “equality of outcome” mindset at all
He's likely referring to the "axis of evil' Russia, China, Iran, etc.
I don’t think he is because they definitely don’t fit that description
China has a social credit score where your literally scored on actions and dealt with accordingly
I think he means Scandinavian possibly?
I meant the repressive eastern regimes. Iran, Russia, China as always depicted as such. They pay no attention to western DEI concepts."
Sorry if I’m getting confused
Russia Iran and china are “ trouncing the west” “ in terms of economic growth and scientific progress” |
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"Strongly disagree.
The almost fanatical push of equality of outcome is one of the reasons the west is in steep decline.
Got to tick that all important DEI box.
Because the repressive eastern regimes are doing significantly better?
If you mean the countries I think you do, you'll see that in terms of economic growth and scientific progress they're trouncing the west. By the way, the majority of their citizens don't see their governments as "repressive"."
The conversation wasn’t about economic and scientific progress, so that wasn’t what the reference was.
Like Miles, whilst I concur with the view that those citizens don’t typically see their governments as ‘repressive’, I do by my standards |
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Privilege is very hard to match, for example if your parents are graduates they will know how to manage your education successfully having been through the system themselves and even if you’re not too bright you will do reasonably well in your career.
Equity might give poorer kids access higher education and remove financial obstacles but that stats show it still doesn’t work, they still end up in low paid jobs. |
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