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Bullying
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
Am reading a lot about bullying at work currently and how to create non-toxic work cultures.
The thing with bullying is there’s not an easily objective assessment of what constitutes bullying. In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
My question is how can you provide critique to someone about issues with interpersonal behaviours if the person has the right to take offence to the level they could call the feedback ‘bullying’, if there’s no objective threshold to say it should be taken at the level of they may not like or agree with the feedback but it doesn’t constitute bullying…? Hope that makes sense.
I mean a lot of bullying is clear, when it is clearly malicious and intended to hurt, when there’s overtly offensive actions and words etc but what about situations that I feel should be determined as the recipient didn’t enjoy hearing the feedback and has the right to disagree but the ambiguity of employment law provides an opportunity for them to take umbrage to the level of damaging the other person.
It concerns me, and yet I don’t want to negate the recipient’s real upset but want to understand how one navigates the need to feedback difficult and challenging info to others (in a work context). |
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Surely if the person saying they are being bullied has told the person not to do the thing and they still do the thing then it's clear cut?
Or if others have witnessed the thing and raised it but the thing still happens.
It is a difficult subject to navigate for sure. I work in an industry that relies on 'dark humour' to deal with the day to day and it's inevitable that 'banter'  will always be taken too far.
In my experience the older or longer serving staff find it harder to deal with any changes in the management of unwanted behaviour in the work place.
Evie |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"Surely if the person saying they are being bullied has told the person not to do the thing and they still do the thing then it's clear cut?
Or if others have witnessed the thing and raised it but the thing still happens.
It is a difficult subject to navigate for sure. I work in an industry that relies on 'dark humour' to deal with the day to day and it's inevitable that 'banter' will always be taken too far.
In my experience the older or longer serving staff find it harder to deal with any changes in the management of unwanted behaviour in the work place.
Evie "
Yeah, I agree. The situation I have in mind the person provided feedback, with consent sought first, and when the person was upset, stopped apologise and clarified their intent wasn’t to hurt but to help support and improve the person’s experience (they’re struggling with others) and also then owned the impact of their feedback upsetting the person irregardless of the intent to not hurt and apologised. The person listening has accused them of bullying. It was a private conversation so only those two there.
Tricky. |
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Really difficult area.
One thing that I use when providing feedback on what I have considered negative behaviours is to tell the person how their behaviour/actions made me/or others feel (if they have told me). For example "when you did X I felt humiliated and belittled and I don't want you to do that again please"
Also to stay factual when talking about specific events, "you did x, why did you do that" rather than try and assume a reason for doing it
Hope that helps a bit and hope you manage to acheive what you want to |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"Really difficult area.
One thing that I use when providing feedback on what I have considered negative behaviours is to tell the person how their behaviour/actions made me/or others feel (if they have told me). For example "when you did X I felt humiliated and belittled and I don't want you to do that again please"
Also to stay factual when talking about specific events, "you did x, why did you do that" rather than try and assume a reason for doing it
Hope that helps a bit and hope you manage to acheive what you want to "
Sound advice. Its made me think more broadly about how we provide psychological safety at work for people and work culture in general. |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"The only way to deal with bullies is to confront them, they can't bully anymore after that 
I agree. But my point is what if one person thinks they’re a bully and they simply might not be?"
It’s a hard one as a manager to help all parties navigate when it’s such a delicately emotional situation. |
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By *TG3Man 45 weeks ago
Dorchester |
"The only way to deal with bullies is to confront them, they can't bully anymore after that
I agree. But my point is what if one person thinks they’re a bully and they simply might not be?"
well exactly i think some people dont react well to being told what to do in a dominant manner which could be mistaken as bullying but sometimes you need to be told |
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"The only way to deal with bullies is to confront them, they can't bully anymore after that
I agree. But my point is what if one person thinks they’re a bully and they simply might not be?"
Oh yes. I've had this as well. Any attempt at providing feedback is seen as them being attacked and usually results in them going off sick with stress. |
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By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus. "
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit "
How is your company not subject to UK employment law? |
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By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?"
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR |
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By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR "
I need a job in that environment!!  |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR "
 sounds good! |
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By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR
I need a job in that environment!! "
It only really exists in small companies. Once you get big enough, you’ve gotta follow the rules of HR sadly
We keep things small and only employ people that won’t rock our boat |
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"Am reading a lot about bullying at work currently and how to create non-toxic work cultures.
The thing with bullying is there’s not an easily objective assessment of what constitutes bullying. In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
My question is how can you provide critique to someone about issues with interpersonal behaviours if the person has the right to take offence to the level they could call the feedback ‘bullying’, if there’s no objective threshold to say it should be taken at the level of they may not like or agree with the feedback but it doesn’t constitute bullying…? Hope that makes sense.
I mean a lot of bullying is clear, when it is clearly malicious and intended to hurt, when there’s overtly offensive actions and words etc but what about situations that I feel should be determined as the recipient didn’t enjoy hearing the feedback and has the right to disagree but the ambiguity of employment law provides an opportunity for them to take umbrage to the level of damaging the other person.
It concerns me, and yet I don’t want to negate the recipient’s real upset but want to understand how one navigates the need to feedback difficult and challenging info to others (in a work context). "
This is really challenging. Laws are necessary but absolutely corruptible.
I wish I had some wisdom for you. |
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By *os19Man 45 weeks ago
Edmonton |
I was talking to a colleague last week who feels that my manager is bullying her by walking past her and not say good morning , good afternoon , good night.Ironically the same manager does the same to me but I don’t see it as bullying.Both me and my colleague have had differences in the past with my manager but I don’t let it bother me as I don’t have to talk to her and I choose not too.My colleague doesn’t want to talk to her but would like a good morning, good afternoon, good night when she walks past our desks.The manager says good morning, good afternoon good night to everyone else in the line of desks I sit in just me and my colleague.As I said I don’t see it as bullying but others like my colleague may disagree |
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"The only way to deal with bullies is to confront them, they can't bully anymore after that
I agree. But my point is what if one person thinks they’re a bully and they simply might not be?well exactly i think some people dont react well to being told what to do in a dominant manner which could be mistaken as bullying but sometimes you need to be told "
Quite right, Fred.
Now KNEEL.
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR "
But HR's main aim is to deal with things at the lowest possible level and will always try talking solutions first 
Evie |
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If things are framed towards leading to their achievement of their objectives, it can be better. Certainly, people need to be informed about the impacts that they have on others though - that is reasonable.
It will generally be better and easier if you can tap into someone's motivation, as well as them knowing that you're interested in their needs and well-being.
Having clear equality, without undue favour, helps to set the foundation for some not to feel driven to bully others.
If people are spoken with and consulted frequently, they also tend to try to diffuse issues. I've strayed from the point a bit  |
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By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR
But HR's main aim is to deal with things at the lowest possible level and will always try talking solutions first
Evie "
Fuck that, couple pints after work is our HR. We don’t need people on the payroll to deal with petty arguments |
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Unfortunately, one person's "robust and direct" management is another person's bullying. The key is employing the right people for the organisational culture.
If you want a workplace where you can have frank and challenging exchanges, you have to have the people that can deal with that. Some people will always be very sensitive to criticism (valid or otherwise) so there would be a mismatch of expectations to employ them in that environment.
The old FIFO maxim still applies |
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"I was talking to a colleague last week who feels that my manager is bullying her by walking past her and not say good morning , good afternoon , good night.Ironically the same manager does the same to me but I don’t see it as bullying.Both me and my colleague have had differences in the past with my manager but I don’t let it bother me as I don’t have to talk to her and I choose not too.My colleague doesn’t want to talk to her but would like a good morning, good afternoon, good night when she walks past our desks.The manager says good morning, good afternoon good night to everyone else in the line of desks I sit in just me and my colleague.As I said I don’t see it as bullying but others like my colleague may disagree "
They say hello and goodbye to each individual person other than you two or they say a general hello and goodbye to the office as they walk past?
Evie |
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR
But HR's main aim is to deal with things at the lowest possible level and will always try talking solutions first
Evie
Fuck that, couple pints after work is our HR. We don’t need people on the payroll to deal with petty arguments "
Until they escalate to ET's |
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By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
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"Surely if the person saying they are being bullied has told the person not to do the thing and they still do the thing then it's clear cut?
Or if others have witnessed the thing and raised it but the thing still happens.
It is a difficult subject to navigate for sure. I work in an industry that relies on 'dark humour' to deal with the day to day and it's inevitable that 'banter' will always be taken too far.
In my experience the older or longer serving staff find it harder to deal with any changes in the management of unwanted behaviour in the work place.
Evie
Yeah, I agree. The situation I have in mind the person provided feedback, with consent sought first, and when the person was upset, stopped apologise and clarified their intent wasn’t to hurt but to help support and improve the person’s experience (they’re struggling with others) and also then owned the impact of their feedback upsetting the person irregardless of the intent to not hurt and apologised. The person listening has accused them of bullying. It was a private conversation so only those two there.
Tricky. "
Ok let’s back up a minute. The feedback was given within the context of a company policy on how feedback is provided? Supported with facts or documentation? Given professionally so as a development tool not as a personal criticism?
The emotive response (calling it ‘bullying’) is a conscious and manipulative attempt to close down the feedback and not accept responsibility. This is itself a toxic behaviour. Observe to eee if a pattern develops.
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By *os19Man 45 weeks ago
Edmonton |
"I was talking to a colleague last week who feels that my manager is bullying her by walking past her and not say good morning , good afternoon , good night.Ironically the same manager does the same to me but I don’t see it as bullying.Both me and my colleague have had differences in the past with my manager but I don’t let it bother me as I don’t have to talk to her and I choose not too.My colleague doesn’t want to talk to her but would like a good morning, good afternoon, good night when she walks past our desks.The manager says good morning, good afternoon good night to everyone else in the line of desks I sit in just me and my colleague.As I said I don’t see it as bullying but others like my colleague may disagree
They say hello and goodbye to each individual person other than you two or they say a general hello and goodbye to the office as they walk past?
Evie "
. In a semi circle of 8 desks she says hello , goodbye , occasional chat to 6 desks. I am on desk 2 and my colleague on desk 8 we are the two that are ignored or avoided |
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"I was talking to a colleague last week who feels that my manager is bullying her by walking past her and not say good morning , good afternoon , good night.Ironically the same manager does the same to me but I don’t see it as bullying.Both me and my colleague have had differences in the past with my manager but I don’t let it bother me as I don’t have to talk to her and I choose not too.My colleague doesn’t want to talk to her but would like a good morning, good afternoon, good night when she walks past our desks.The manager says good morning, good afternoon good night to everyone else in the line of desks I sit in just me and my colleague.As I said I don’t see it as bullying but others like my colleague may disagree
They say hello and goodbye to each individual person other than you two or they say a general hello and goodbye to the office as they walk past?
Evie . In a semi circle of 8 desks she says hello , goodbye , occasional chat to 6 desks. I am on desk 2 and my colleague on desk 8 we are the two that are ignored or avoided "
If they are deliberately and repeatedly ignoring it not including members of the team then it is very unprofessional and can be construed as a form of bullying. Bullying is not always name calling or overt behaviours.
You may not be bothered by it but your colleague clearly is. I'm not saying either one of you is right because our perceptions are based on previous experiences etc.
Evie |
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It's so difficult, I had to have a chat with an employee years back because she'd basically not done her job (for several days), I felt I was very polite and stated you can't ignore duties of x y x because it affects x y x, she started crying & ran straight to the person above me shouting bully.
Luckily all offices had cameras or I'd have been seriously fucked, some people can't take criticism at all and are extremely easily offended, there's little to prevent that.
It's a very fine line.
Mrs |
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By *os19Man 45 weeks ago
Edmonton |
"I was talking to a colleague last week who feels that my manager is bullying her by walking past her and not say good morning , good afternoon , good night.Ironically the same manager does the same to me but I don’t see it as bullying.Both me and my colleague have had differences in the past with my manager but I don’t let it bother me as I don’t have to talk to her and I choose not too.My colleague doesn’t want to talk to her but would like a good morning, good afternoon, good night when she walks past our desks.The manager says good morning, good afternoon good night to everyone else in the line of desks I sit in just me and my colleague.As I said I don’t see it as bullying but others like my colleague may disagree
They say hello and goodbye to each individual person other than you two or they say a general hello and goodbye to the office as they walk past?
Evie . In a semi circle of 8 desks she says hello , goodbye , occasional chat to 6 desks. I am on desk 2 and my colleague on desk 8 we are the two that are ignored or avoided
If they are deliberately and repeatedly ignoring it not including members of the team then it is very unprofessional and can be construed as a form of bullying. Bullying is not always name calling or overt behaviours.
You may not be bothered by it but your colleague clearly is. I'm not saying either one of you is right because our perceptions are based on previous experiences etc.
Evie "
. My colleague on desk 8 is not part of the same team as me and my manager but my colleague feels that my manager could be more professional and acknowledge her.Me I would rather not speak to her and don’t unless she speaks to me first. |
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I would think bullying is an abridge in employment law from Bullying and Harassment. I've only had a quick google but the Equality act 2010 seems to cover it through visual, verbal and physical acts. How these are distinguished would probably be a matter of their roles, duration, action taken, protected characteristics, workplace policy, severity.
So while not an example of bullying if a manager was chatting up or dating member of staff against company policy. If they had been told to stop, moved, but continued with others, there's obvious need for action. Apply the same rules for unwanted behaviour. |
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"It's so difficult, I had to have a chat with an employee years back because she'd basically not done her job (for several days), I felt I was very polite and stated you can't ignore duties of x y x because it affects x y x, she started crying & ran straight to the person above me shouting bully.
Luckily all offices had cameras or I'd have been seriously fucked, some people can't take criticism at all and are extremely easily offended, there's little to prevent that.
It's a very fine line.
Mrs "
I do feel it is a symptom of today's society that some people simply cannot take any kind of feedback.
Surely as long as your feedback was constructive and fair and you could evidence you managed others consistently then you would have been ok?
Evie |
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By *olf and RedCouple 45 weeks ago
Nr Cardiff or at Chams Darlaston |
A friend of mine had a grievance put against him for bullying. He never does anything like that in the work place. But he was then off with stress , eventually it was all not upheld against him.
I’ve had difficulties in the work place when younger and you look back , thinking certain managers were really out of order. Nowadays I would hope action would be taken against them.
Red |
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It's next to impossible to deal with unless there's a will on both sides and an intermediary with great mediation skills.
I worked with a woman who was 'bullied' everywhere she'd worked. It soon became clear that she was being asked to tone down her critiques of her colleagues work, to stop interfering when colleagues were dealing with a client, to stop making borderline offensive comments to people and she didn't like it. |
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By *m3232Man 45 weeks ago
maidenhead |
"The only way to deal with bullies is to confront them, they can't bully anymore after that
I agree. But my point is what if one person thinks they’re a bully and they simply might not be?
It’s a hard one as a manager to help all parties navigate when it’s such a delicately emotional situation. "
That’s why you effectively call them out on it and state you don’t like the way it/they come across as it could be just a simple thing as someone wants to be boss.
I hated employing someone and would never do it again as so many stupid people out there. |
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Interesting topic. Bullying does of course happen and certainly allegations must be investigated and if proven dealt appropriately . But it is also often used to cover other stuff such a incompetence or personality traits that are in conflict with organisational values and beliefs and sometimes the clash of personalities between two people. As others said, it often comes down to poor communication, baggage carried on from previous experiences or in some cases lack of training, proper induction to a new role etc. |
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By *addad99Man 45 weeks ago
Rotherham /newquay |
"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR "
yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment |
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By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
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In the past l noticed that some mid managers set on employees that turned out to be bullies, as the mid manager had picked the employee he didnt want to do anything about so it didnt look bad on him , it even got to the point of him promoting the troublesome worker where it went on even worse than the time before, at the time all this bad behavior made me go self employed, that stopped it for a lot of us. |
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment "
Implying women are the problem!
Evie |
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Clearly bullying, in the way right minded individuals perceive it, is wrong.
But in some of the examples above, it's an easy way for under performers to wriggle out of their own ineptitude and, in worse case scenario, deflect disciplinary procedures onto others who were clearly just trying to do their job.
I see it happen often in my place of work (Civil Service) - was even accused of it myself, 8 yrs ago! (I was cleared, he was finally sacked)
I would never want to manage staff again. Not in this day and age
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By *addad99Man 45 weeks ago
Rotherham /newquay |
"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment
Implying women are the problem!
Evie "
no implying that we deal with it are self's even I no it's not polite to tell a woman to fuck off before I smash your face in |
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By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment "
All male environment here too, we do tend to handle things a bit different, not to say women are the problem just that for our company it’s all male and we just have it out and get a drink after and I don’t think our methods would go down well with 99% of women
Just different work environments for different people |
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment
Implying women are the problem!
Evie no implying that we deal with it are self's even I no it's not polite to tell a woman to fuck off before I smash your face in "
You'd smash a woman's face in ?!!  |
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment
All male environment here too, we do tend to handle things a bit different, not to say women are the problem just that for our company it’s all male and we just have it out and get a drink after and I don’t think our methods would go down well with 99% of women
Just different work environments for different people "
Sorry, Sisterhood, but he's got a point!
In my experience, the troublesome employees have primarily been women. |
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment
Implying women are the problem!
Evie no implying that we deal with it are self's even I no it's not polite to tell a woman to fuck off before I smash your face in "
Sounds like such a healthy environment to work in 
In other words. Like it or lump it or I'll smash your face in
Evie |
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment
All male environment here too, we do tend to handle things a bit different, not to say women are the problem just that for our company it’s all male and we just have it out and get a drink after and I don’t think our methods would go down well with 99% of women
Just different work environments for different people "
Sounds intrinsically toxic to me to be honest. I wonder how many are just grinning and bearing it, not confident enough to raise concerns for fear of ridicule.
Evie |
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It is my understanding that bullying itself it is not against the law. What is illegal is harassment which basically means that you can’t go after protected characteristics (gender, religion etc).
If you give feedback that is factual, based on clear evidence and reasonably given then whether someone likes it or not is irrelevant and a claim of bullying will not succeed.
Proper management should be about making sure you have clearly outlined the requirements and are holding people to account against those goals. A paper trail is essential if you are dealing with someone who will claim they are bullied.
If it is an interpersonal issue then making sure you have covered the issue with both sides, documented the claim and counter claim and focussed solely on those issues then you will be fine. |
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|
By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
|
"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment
All male environment here too, we do tend to handle things a bit different, not to say women are the problem just that for our company it’s all male and we just have it out and get a drink after and I don’t think our methods would go down well with 99% of women
Just different work environments for different people
Sounds intrinsically toxic to me to be honest. I wonder how many are just grinning and bearing it, not confident enough to raise concerns for fear of ridicule.
Evie "
Nah we all fucking love it. That’s what’s great about it, no one would grit their teeth (grinning lol) they’d just speak out
It’s a good place |
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By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
|
"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment
All male environment here too, we do tend to handle things a bit different, not to say women are the problem just that for our company it’s all male and we just have it out and get a drink after and I don’t think our methods would go down well with 99% of women
Just different work environments for different people
Sounds intrinsically toxic to me to be honest. I wonder how many are just grinning and bearing it, not confident enough to raise concerns for fear of ridicule.
Evie
Nah we all fucking love it. That’s what’s great about it, no one would grit their teeth (grinning lol) they’d just speak out
It’s a good place "
Kinda proves my point though why we just keel it to the guys. It’s not a work environment many woman can stomach |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"It is my understanding that bullying itself it is not against the law. What is illegal is harassment which basically means that you can’t go after protected characteristics (gender, religion etc).
If you give feedback that is factual, based on clear evidence and reasonably given then whether someone likes it or not is irrelevant and a claim of bullying will not succeed.
Proper management should be about making sure you have clearly outlined the requirements and are holding people to account against those goals. A paper trail is essential if you are dealing with someone who will claim they are bullied.
If it is an interpersonal issue then making sure you have covered the issue with both sides, documented the claim and counter claim and focussed solely on those issues then you will be fine."
You can’t take (from my understanding) a claim of bullying (being a recipient of) to tribunal per se, unless it’s about a claim re the injury incurred (mental or physical) or if it’s led to constructive dismissal and you feeling you have to leave and the employer not upholding their duty of care to you.
You can (if accused of bullying) be dismissed for gross misconduct so again there are legal implications around instances of bullying. |
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment
All male environment here too, we do tend to handle things a bit different, not to say women are the problem just that for our company it’s all male and we just have it out and get a drink after and I don’t think our methods would go down well with 99% of women
Just different work environments for different people
Sounds intrinsically toxic to me to be honest. I wonder how many are just grinning and bearing it, not confident enough to raise concerns for fear of ridicule.
Evie
Nah we all fucking love it. That’s what’s great about it, no one would grit their teeth (grinning lol) they’d just speak out
It’s a good place
Kinda proves my point though why we just keel it to the guys. It’s not a work environment many woman can stomach "
Lol ok |
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By *addad99Man 45 weeks ago
Rotherham /newquay |
"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment
Implying women are the problem!
Evie no implying that we deal with it are self's even I no it's not polite to tell a woman to fuck off before I smash your face in
Sounds like such a healthy environment to work in
In other words. Like it or lump it or I'll smash your face in
Evie "
no it means we all get on brilliantly we back each other up we don't try to get points to look good or climb a ladder we don't have a ladder we go out most weekends go away we take things on the chin maybe shout at each other then go grab a coffee move on no running to HR not toxic at all just a great experience but I do agree put a woman in there and it changes.but good try |
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"It is my understanding that bullying itself it is not against the law. What is illegal is harassment which basically means that you can’t go after protected characteristics (gender, religion etc).
If you give feedback that is factual, based on clear evidence and reasonably given then whether someone likes it or not is irrelevant and a claim of bullying will not succeed.
Proper management should be about making sure you have clearly outlined the requirements and are holding people to account against those goals. A paper trail is essential if you are dealing with someone who will claim they are bullied.
If it is an interpersonal issue then making sure you have covered the issue with both sides, documented the claim and counter claim and focussed solely on those issues then you will be fine.
You can’t take (from my understanding) a claim of bullying (being a recipient of) to tribunal per se, unless it’s about a claim re the injury incurred (mental or physical) or if it’s led to constructive dismissal and you feeling you have to leave and the employer not upholding their duty of care to you.
You can (if accused of bullying) be dismissed for gross misconduct so again there are legal implications around instances of bullying. "
https://www.gov.uk/workplace-bullying-and-harassment
Basically if you have a consistent process and clear policies and approaches to the way people are assigned work, held to account against that work and promoted/sacked then you will be fine as a manager.
If you try to wing it and favour a few of your friends over other people then you will get everything that you deserve when someone uses the game against you.
|
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"In employment law it’s not about the intent of the person saying something that’s important, it’s how it made the other person feel that is the focus.
This is why offices are fucked
Placing feelings over facts
So essentially, anything is bullying.
Thank god my company has none of this shit
How is your company not subject to UK employment law?
We only work with fucking legends that deal with issues by talking, not running to HR yep just like my place I couldn't even tell you who my HR person is but I do work in a male environment
Implying women are the problem!
Evie no implying that we deal with it are self's even I no it's not polite to tell a woman to fuck off before I smash your face in
Sounds like such a healthy environment to work in
In other words. Like it or lump it or I'll smash your face in
Evie no it means we all get on brilliantly we back each other up we don't try to get points to look good or climb a ladder we don't have a ladder we go out most weekends go away we take things on the chin maybe shout at each other then go grab a coffee move on no running to HR not toxic at all just a great experience but I do agree put a woman in there and it changes.but good try "
Not trying anything, just using my experience of make dominated industries and the real feelings that run beneath the overtly macho exterior. Of anyone dares mention feeling uncomfortable about things they get shouted down and shamed for not being one of the lads and just cracking on with things. There's a reason why there's a big focus on mental health in make dominated industries.
Evie. |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"It is my understanding that bullying itself it is not against the law. What is illegal is harassment which basically means that you can’t go after protected characteristics (gender, religion etc).
If you give feedback that is factual, based on clear evidence and reasonably given then whether someone likes it or not is irrelevant and a claim of bullying will not succeed.
Proper management should be about making sure you have clearly outlined the requirements and are holding people to account against those goals. A paper trail is essential if you are dealing with someone who will claim they are bullied.
If it is an interpersonal issue then making sure you have covered the issue with both sides, documented the claim and counter claim and focussed solely on those issues then you will be fine.
You can’t take (from my understanding) a claim of bullying (being a recipient of) to tribunal per se, unless it’s about a claim re the injury incurred (mental or physical) or if it’s led to constructive dismissal and you feeling you have to leave and the employer not upholding their duty of care to you.
You can (if accused of bullying) be dismissed for gross misconduct so again there are legal implications around instances of bullying.
https://www.gov.uk/workplace-bullying-and-harassment
Basically if you have a consistent process and clear policies and approaches to the way people are assigned work, held to account against that work and promoted/sacked then you will be fine as a manager.
If you try to wing it and favour a few of your friends over other people then you will get everything that you deserve when someone uses the game against you.
"
Thanks. It’s not really specific to the situation I’ve described. On the gov.uk (as I was aware) :
“Bullying and harassment is behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated or offended.”
Harassment as you say, is about a protected characteristic. It’s much more easily proven.
Bullying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
|
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"llying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
"
If the question is really around giving feedback when it is not wanted then my approach would be to depersonalise it.
I would try to focus on the task or behaviour not the person. I would outline the behaviour as it has been documented, point out the impact that behaviour is having and have a discussion about alternative ways that the desired outcome could be achieved.
If you are concerned in any way that the conversation might take a bad turn then I would have a chat with HR before hand to see what advise they have. I would document that conversation to cover your back. HR are there to safeguard the company - they are not there for the employees benefit despite what they might suggest to employees - and a good one will actively work with you to solve issues if they get the whiff of something that could cause issues for the company. |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"llying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
If the question is really around giving feedback when it is not wanted then my approach would be to depersonalise it.
I would try to focus on the task or behaviour not the person. I would outline the behaviour as it has been documented, point out the impact that behaviour is having and have a discussion about alternative ways that the desired outcome could be achieved.
If you are concerned in any way that the conversation might take a bad turn then I would have a chat with HR before hand to see what advise they have. I would document that conversation to cover your back. HR are there to safeguard the company - they are not there for the employees benefit despite what they might suggest to employees - and a good one will actively work with you to solve issues if they get the whiff of something that could cause issues for the company."
Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks |
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"
Thanks. It’s not really specific to the situation I’ve described. On the gov.uk (as I was aware) :
“Bullying and harassment is behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated or offended.”
Harassment as you say, is about a protected characteristic. It’s much more easily proven.
Bullying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
"
It isn't solely about the perception of the individual where harassment is concerned - the objective element is whether it is reasonable in the circumstances for that individual to feel harassed. e.g. disabled/female/gay employee feels harassed when their manager presents them with evidence showing that they have not been logged on during work hours and says this is an act of bullying because they are disabled etc.
Provided the manager is consistent and raises such issues with all staff, they are simply doing their job by ensuring staff carry out their duties. It would not be reasonable to consider this an act of bullying unless either the manager would not raise this with other staff and/or uses language that implies discrimination.
You can extrapolate the principle to bullying too. A manager or colleague delivering evidence-based criticisms in a professional manner is not bullying. |
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|
By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"
Thanks. It’s not really specific to the situation I’ve described. On the gov.uk (as I was aware) :
“Bullying and harassment is behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated or offended.”
Harassment as you say, is about a protected characteristic. It’s much more easily proven.
Bullying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
It isn't solely about the perception of the individual where harassment is concerned - the objective element is whether it is reasonable in the circumstances for that individual to feel harassed. e.g. disabled/female/gay employee feels harassed when their manager presents them with evidence showing that they have not been logged on during work hours and says this is an act of bullying because they are disabled etc.
Provided the manager is consistent and raises such issues with all staff, they are simply doing their job by ensuring staff carry out their duties. It would not be reasonable to consider this an act of bullying unless either the manager would not raise this with other staff and/or uses language that implies discrimination.
You can extrapolate the principle to bullying too. A manager or colleague delivering evidence-based criticisms in a professional manner is not bullying."
Yep, this is the logic I would apply - I agree. What’s difficult is it’s a he said/she said meeting and hard to prove either case. It’s more complicated in that the person accusing the bullying is more senior and has been subject to numerous interpersonal issues with their wider and more junior team members. The feedback was their from their line report (a middle manager) attempting to mediate between the more junior team and the more senior manager. And the senior manager has gone on the attack that their line report has bullied them. This senior manager has had seven grievances and one collective grievance submitted against them in the last year. The senior manager has suspended three members of staff into investigatory processes (all three being people who have challenged the senior manager). It’s a toxic fiasco. The concern is that because the accusing senior manager is senior that the employer will automatically hold their opinion as having more merit.
It’s complex.
It just was making me think about the difficulty of balancing what does and what does not constitute bullying when there’s such a high level of subjectivity inherent in it.
Take your points though. |
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By *os19Man 45 weeks ago
Edmonton |
"
Thanks. It’s not really specific to the situation I’ve described. On the gov.uk (as I was aware) :
“Bullying and harassment is behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated or offended.”
Harassment as you say, is about a protected characteristic. It’s much more easily proven.
Bullying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
It isn't solely about the perception of the individual where harassment is concerned - the objective element is whether it is reasonable in the circumstances for that individual to feel harassed. e.g. disabled/female/gay employee feels harassed when their manager presents them with evidence showing that they have not been logged on during work hours and says this is an act of bullying because they are disabled etc.
Provided the manager is consistent and raises such issues with all staff, they are simply doing their job by ensuring staff carry out their duties. It would not be reasonable to consider this an act of bullying unless either the manager would not raise this with other staff and/or uses language that implies discrimination.
You can extrapolate the principle to bullying too. A manager or colleague delivering evidence-based criticisms in a professional manner is not bullying.
Yep, this is the logic I would apply - I agree. What’s difficult is it’s a he said/she said meeting and hard to prove either case. It’s more complicated in that the person accusing the bullying is more senior and has been subject to numerous interpersonal issues with their wider and more junior team members. The feedback was their from their line report (a middle manager) attempting to mediate between the more junior team and the more senior manager. And the senior manager has gone on the attack that their line report has bullied them. This senior manager has had seven grievances and one collective grievance submitted against them in the last year. The senior manager has suspended three members of staff into investigatory processes (all three being people who have challenged the senior manager). It’s a toxic fiasco. The concern is that because the accusing senior manager is senior that the employer will automatically hold their opinion as having more merit.
It’s complex.
It just was making me think about the difficulty of balancing what does and what does not constitute bullying when there’s such a high level of subjectivity inherent in it.
Take your points though. "
. Are the 7 grievances against the senior manager from 7 different members of staff.If so then I am a little surprised the senior manager hasn’t perhaps be moved to another team or office.I am guessing it’s not as straightforward as that. |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"
Thanks. It’s not really specific to the situation I’ve described. On the gov.uk (as I was aware) :
“Bullying and harassment is behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated or offended.”
Harassment as you say, is about a protected characteristic. It’s much more easily proven.
Bullying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
It isn't solely about the perception of the individual where harassment is concerned - the objective element is whether it is reasonable in the circumstances for that individual to feel harassed. e.g. disabled/female/gay employee feels harassed when their manager presents them with evidence showing that they have not been logged on during work hours and says this is an act of bullying because they are disabled etc.
Provided the manager is consistent and raises such issues with all staff, they are simply doing their job by ensuring staff carry out their duties. It would not be reasonable to consider this an act of bullying unless either the manager would not raise this with other staff and/or uses language that implies discrimination.
You can extrapolate the principle to bullying too. A manager or colleague delivering evidence-based criticisms in a professional manner is not bullying.
Yep, this is the logic I would apply - I agree. What’s difficult is it’s a he said/she said meeting and hard to prove either case. It’s more complicated in that the person accusing the bullying is more senior and has been subject to numerous interpersonal issues with their wider and more junior team members. The feedback was their from their line report (a middle manager) attempting to mediate between the more junior team and the more senior manager. And the senior manager has gone on the attack that their line report has bullied them. This senior manager has had seven grievances and one collective grievance submitted against them in the last year. The senior manager has suspended three members of staff into investigatory processes (all three being people who have challenged the senior manager). It’s a toxic fiasco. The concern is that because the accusing senior manager is senior that the employer will automatically hold their opinion as having more merit.
It’s complex.
It just was making me think about the difficulty of balancing what does and what does not constitute bullying when there’s such a high level of subjectivity inherent in it.
Take your points though. . Are the 7 grievances against the senior manager from 7 different members of staff.If so then I am a little surprised the senior manager hasn’t perhaps be moved to another team or office.I am guessing it’s not as straightforward as that."
From 4 different staff but the collective was the entire junior team! One of the staff who had put in a few grievances is the second line report to the senior manager (so also a middle manager) and there’s been a very fractured relationship between them both - they are now on suspension from a situation the senior manager decided to heavy-handedly deal with (because they have an agenda against the other person) and whilst there’s merit that the issue being investigated happened it didn’t need to be dealt with formally.
The now accused of bullying other middle manager had been the diplomat holding the relationships together for the entirety of the team, until they tried to help resolve all the rifts by talking with the senior manager and providing some constructive feedback. Which did not land….!
|
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"
Thanks. It’s not really specific to the situation I’ve described. On the gov.uk (as I was aware) :
“Bullying and harassment is behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated or offended.”
Harassment as you say, is about a protected characteristic. It’s much more easily proven.
Bullying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
It isn't solely about the perception of the individual where harassment is concerned - the objective element is whether it is reasonable in the circumstances for that individual to feel harassed. e.g. disabled/female/gay employee feels harassed when their manager presents them with evidence showing that they have not been logged on during work hours and says this is an act of bullying because they are disabled etc.
Provided the manager is consistent and raises such issues with all staff, they are simply doing their job by ensuring staff carry out their duties. It would not be reasonable to consider this an act of bullying unless either the manager would not raise this with other staff and/or uses language that implies discrimination.
You can extrapolate the principle to bullying too. A manager or colleague delivering evidence-based criticisms in a professional manner is not bullying.
Yep, this is the logic I would apply - I agree. What’s difficult is it’s a he said/she said meeting and hard to prove either case. It’s more complicated in that the person accusing the bullying is more senior and has been subject to numerous interpersonal issues with their wider and more junior team members. The feedback was their from their line report (a middle manager) attempting to mediate between the more junior team and the more senior manager. And the senior manager has gone on the attack that their line report has bullied them. This senior manager has had seven grievances and one collective grievance submitted against them in the last year. The senior manager has suspended three members of staff into investigatory processes (all three being people who have challenged the senior manager). It’s a toxic fiasco. The concern is that because the accusing senior manager is senior that the employer will automatically hold their opinion as having more merit.
It’s complex.
It just was making me think about the difficulty of balancing what does and what does not constitute bullying when there’s such a high level of subjectivity inherent in it.
Take your points though. . Are the 7 grievances against the senior manager from 7 different members of staff.If so then I am a little surprised the senior manager hasn’t perhaps be moved to another team or office.I am guessing it’s not as straightforward as that.
From 4 different staff but the collective was the entire junior team! One of the staff who had put in a few grievances is the second line report to the senior manager (so also a middle manager) and there’s been a very fractured relationship between them both - they are now on suspension from a situation the senior manager decided to heavy-handedly deal with (because they have an agenda against the other person) and whilst there’s merit that the issue being investigated happened it didn’t need to be dealt with formally.
The now accused of bullying other middle manager had been the diplomat holding the relationships together for the entirety of the team, until they tried to help resolve all the rifts by talking with the senior manager and providing some constructive feedback. Which did not land….!
"
Where is the top level management in all this? If an entire team makes a formal complaint then that would be kicking off all sorts of warnings if I was higher up the management chain. |
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By (user no longer on site) 45 weeks ago
|
Sorry I haven't read the entire thread, just the first few posts - where one person is 'accusing' the other person, i would recommend mediation with HR... But your HR need to be unbiased, unemotional and impartial and skilled at managing the situation... Not many are unfortunately. |
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By *os19Man 45 weeks ago
Edmonton |
"
Thanks. It’s not really specific to the situation I’ve described. On the gov.uk (as I was aware) :
“Bullying and harassment is behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated or offended.”
Harassment as you say, is about a protected characteristic. It’s much more easily proven.
Bullying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
It isn't solely about the perception of the individual where harassment is concerned - the objective element is whether it is reasonable in the circumstances for that individual to feel harassed. e.g. disabled/female/gay employee feels harassed when their manager presents them with evidence showing that they have not been logged on during work hours and says this is an act of bullying because they are disabled etc.
Provided the manager is consistent and raises such issues with all staff, they are simply doing their job by ensuring staff carry out their duties. It would not be reasonable to consider this an act of bullying unless either the manager would not raise this with other staff and/or uses language that implies discrimination.
You can extrapolate the principle to bullying too. A manager or colleague delivering evidence-based criticisms in a professional manner is not bullying.
Yep, this is the logic I would apply - I agree. What’s difficult is it’s a he said/she said meeting and hard to prove either case. It’s more complicated in that the person accusing the bullying is more senior and has been subject to numerous interpersonal issues with their wider and more junior team members. The feedback was their from their line report (a middle manager) attempting to mediate between the more junior team and the more senior manager. And the senior manager has gone on the attack that their line report has bullied them. This senior manager has had seven grievances and one collective grievance submitted against them in the last year. The senior manager has suspended three members of staff into investigatory processes (all three being people who have challenged the senior manager). It’s a toxic fiasco. The concern is that because the accusing senior manager is senior that the employer will automatically hold their opinion as having more merit.
It’s complex.
It just was making me think about the difficulty of balancing what does and what does not constitute bullying when there’s such a high level of subjectivity inherent in it.
Take your points though. . Are the 7 grievances against the senior manager from 7 different members of staff.If so then I am a little surprised the senior manager hasn’t perhaps be moved to another team or office.I am guessing it’s not as straightforward as that.
From 4 different staff but the collective was the entire junior team! One of the staff who had put in a few grievances is the second line report to the senior manager (so also a middle manager) and there’s been a very fractured relationship between them both - they are now on suspension from a situation the senior manager decided to heavy-handedly deal with (because they have an agenda against the other person) and whilst there’s merit that the issue being investigated happened it didn’t need to be dealt with formally.
The now accused of bullying other middle manager had been the diplomat holding the relationships together for the entirety of the team, until they tried to help resolve all the rifts by talking with the senior manager and providing some constructive feedback. Which did not land….!
Where is the top level management in all this? If an entire team makes a formal complaint then that would be kicking off all sorts of warnings if I was higher up the management chain."
. So 4 different members of staff have put in grievances and the entire team had put in a collective grievance.Surely the top level management should be doing more to find out what the problems are and doing something about it |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"
Thanks. It’s not really specific to the situation I’ve described. On the gov.uk (as I was aware) :
“Bullying and harassment is behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated or offended.”
Harassment as you say, is about a protected characteristic. It’s much more easily proven.
Bullying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
It isn't solely about the perception of the individual where harassment is concerned - the objective element is whether it is reasonable in the circumstances for that individual to feel harassed. e.g. disabled/female/gay employee feels harassed when their manager presents them with evidence showing that they have not been logged on during work hours and says this is an act of bullying because they are disabled etc.
Provided the manager is consistent and raises such issues with all staff, they are simply doing their job by ensuring staff carry out their duties. It would not be reasonable to consider this an act of bullying unless either the manager would not raise this with other staff and/or uses language that implies discrimination.
You can extrapolate the principle to bullying too. A manager or colleague delivering evidence-based criticisms in a professional manner is not bullying.
Yep, this is the logic I would apply - I agree. What’s difficult is it’s a he said/she said meeting and hard to prove either case. It’s more complicated in that the person accusing the bullying is more senior and has been subject to numerous interpersonal issues with their wider and more junior team members. The feedback was their from their line report (a middle manager) attempting to mediate between the more junior team and the more senior manager. And the senior manager has gone on the attack that their line report has bullied them. This senior manager has had seven grievances and one collective grievance submitted against them in the last year. The senior manager has suspended three members of staff into investigatory processes (all three being people who have challenged the senior manager). It’s a toxic fiasco. The concern is that because the accusing senior manager is senior that the employer will automatically hold their opinion as having more merit.
It’s complex.
It just was making me think about the difficulty of balancing what does and what does not constitute bullying when there’s such a high level of subjectivity inherent in it.
Take your points though. . Are the 7 grievances against the senior manager from 7 different members of staff.If so then I am a little surprised the senior manager hasn’t perhaps be moved to another team or office.I am guessing it’s not as straightforward as that.
From 4 different staff but the collective was the entire junior team! One of the staff who had put in a few grievances is the second line report to the senior manager (so also a middle manager) and there’s been a very fractured relationship between them both - they are now on suspension from a situation the senior manager decided to heavy-handedly deal with (because they have an agenda against the other person) and whilst there’s merit that the issue being investigated happened it didn’t need to be dealt with formally.
The now accused of bullying other middle manager had been the diplomat holding the relationships together for the entirety of the team, until they tried to help resolve all the rifts by talking with the senior manager and providing some constructive feedback. Which did not land….!
Where is the top level management in all this? If an entire team makes a formal complaint then that would be kicking off all sorts of warnings if I was higher up the management chain."
Agreed. The senior manager’s line manager is very tight with them. And she has also been problematic with the team. So it’s a perfect storm it’s them against an entire team.
More senior director level are starting to review given the number of issues but it’s all very toxic and all the individual suspension processes need to play out in due process. The team have lost both their middle managers, who are loved, there’s a locum manager in and the senior manager is safe - for now.
Fiasco. |
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"
Thanks. It’s not really specific to the situation I’ve described. On the gov.uk (as I was aware) :
“Bullying and harassment is behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated or offended.”
Harassment as you say, is about a protected characteristic. It’s much more easily proven.
Bullying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
It isn't solely about the perception of the individual where harassment is concerned - the objective element is whether it is reasonable in the circumstances for that individual to feel harassed. e.g. disabled/female/gay employee feels harassed when their manager presents them with evidence showing that they have not been logged on during work hours and says this is an act of bullying because they are disabled etc.
Provided the manager is consistent and raises such issues with all staff, they are simply doing their job by ensuring staff carry out their duties. It would not be reasonable to consider this an act of bullying unless either the manager would not raise this with other staff and/or uses language that implies discrimination.
You can extrapolate the principle to bullying too. A manager or colleague delivering evidence-based criticisms in a professional manner is not bullying.
Yep, this is the logic I would apply - I agree. What’s difficult is it’s a he said/she said meeting and hard to prove either case. It’s more complicated in that the person accusing the bullying is more senior and has been subject to numerous interpersonal issues with their wider and more junior team members. The feedback was their from their line report (a middle manager) attempting to mediate between the more junior team and the more senior manager. And the senior manager has gone on the attack that their line report has bullied them. This senior manager has had seven grievances and one collective grievance submitted against them in the last year. The senior manager has suspended three members of staff into investigatory processes (all three being people who have challenged the senior manager). It’s a toxic fiasco. The concern is that because the accusing senior manager is senior that the employer will automatically hold their opinion as having more merit.
It’s complex.
It just was making me think about the difficulty of balancing what does and what does not constitute bullying when there’s such a high level of subjectivity inherent in it.
Take your points though. . Are the 7 grievances against the senior manager from 7 different members of staff.If so then I am a little surprised the senior manager hasn’t perhaps be moved to another team or office.I am guessing it’s not as straightforward as that.
From 4 different staff but the collective was the entire junior team! One of the staff who had put in a few grievances is the second line report to the senior manager (so also a middle manager) and there’s been a very fractured relationship between them both - they are now on suspension from a situation the senior manager decided to heavy-handedly deal with (because they have an agenda against the other person) and whilst there’s merit that the issue being investigated happened it didn’t need to be dealt with formally.
The now accused of bullying other middle manager had been the diplomat holding the relationships together for the entirety of the team, until they tried to help resolve all the rifts by talking with the senior manager and providing some constructive feedback. Which did not land….!
"
I believe this level of dysfunction is know as an omnishambles or, to give it its technical name, a clusterfuck.*
*not the good kind that the fine men/women/other of Fab partake in |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"
Thanks. It’s not really specific to the situation I’ve described. On the gov.uk (as I was aware) :
“Bullying and harassment is behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated or offended.”
Harassment as you say, is about a protected characteristic. It’s much more easily proven.
Bullying is solely about the subjective feeling of the recipient to say they were feeling intimidated or offended”, the situation I’m talking about is the ambiguity of the fact there’s no objective threshold to balance someone unjustly taking offence should they wish to.
I don’t disagree with your points, you’re right. But it’s not as clear cut re the situation I’m pondering.
It isn't solely about the perception of the individual where harassment is concerned - the objective element is whether it is reasonable in the circumstances for that individual to feel harassed. e.g. disabled/female/gay employee feels harassed when their manager presents them with evidence showing that they have not been logged on during work hours and says this is an act of bullying because they are disabled etc.
Provided the manager is consistent and raises such issues with all staff, they are simply doing their job by ensuring staff carry out their duties. It would not be reasonable to consider this an act of bullying unless either the manager would not raise this with other staff and/or uses language that implies discrimination.
You can extrapolate the principle to bullying too. A manager or colleague delivering evidence-based criticisms in a professional manner is not bullying.
Yep, this is the logic I would apply - I agree. What’s difficult is it’s a he said/she said meeting and hard to prove either case. It’s more complicated in that the person accusing the bullying is more senior and has been subject to numerous interpersonal issues with their wider and more junior team members. The feedback was their from their line report (a middle manager) attempting to mediate between the more junior team and the more senior manager. And the senior manager has gone on the attack that their line report has bullied them. This senior manager has had seven grievances and one collective grievance submitted against them in the last year. The senior manager has suspended three members of staff into investigatory processes (all three being people who have challenged the senior manager). It’s a toxic fiasco. The concern is that because the accusing senior manager is senior that the employer will automatically hold their opinion as having more merit.
It’s complex.
It just was making me think about the difficulty of balancing what does and what does not constitute bullying when there’s such a high level of subjectivity inherent in it.
Take your points though. . Are the 7 grievances against the senior manager from 7 different members of staff.If so then I am a little surprised the senior manager hasn’t perhaps be moved to another team or office.I am guessing it’s not as straightforward as that.
From 4 different staff but the collective was the entire junior team! One of the staff who had put in a few grievances is the second line report to the senior manager (so also a middle manager) and there’s been a very fractured relationship between them both - they are now on suspension from a situation the senior manager decided to heavy-handedly deal with (because they have an agenda against the other person) and whilst there’s merit that the issue being investigated happened it didn’t need to be dealt with formally.
The now accused of bullying other middle manager had been the diplomat holding the relationships together for the entirety of the team, until they tried to help resolve all the rifts by talking with the senior manager and providing some constructive feedback. Which did not land….!
I believe this level of dysfunction is know as an omnishambles or, to give it its technical name, a clusterfuck.*
*not the good kind that the fine men/women/other of Fab partake in"
That dear reader, I agree with |
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"Unfortunately In my recent experience, it really doesn't matter. HR will only ever protect the ones at the top no matter what anyone else says.
This is the fear. "
It's a very real fear to have. I was always on the side of "HR are there to sort things, they will help" until I watched a grown arse adult ruin a teenagers life while HR sat on their laurels and did nothing. |
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"
Where is the top level management in all this? If an entire team makes a formal complaint then that would be kicking off all sorts of warnings if I was higher up the management chain.
Agreed. The senior manager’s line manager is very tight with them. And she has also been problematic with the team. So it’s a perfect storm it’s them against an entire team.
More senior director level are starting to review given the number of issues but it’s all very toxic and all the individual suspension processes need to play out in due process. The team have lost both their middle managers, who are loved, there’s a locum manager in and the senior manager is safe - for now.
Fiasco. "
I don’t know the size/type of the organisation but there is only a certain number of suspensions/issues a company can have before it triggers serious top level exec/board concern. If there are senior managers above then the fact that she is “tight” with her line manager is not going to last long when her line manager realises that those above want it sorted.
The _only_ time I have seen a senior manager supported with this number of suspensions is when the company actively wants the team cleared out and the manager has been explicitly brought in to change it. That said there are far better/easier ways of clearing out a team if that were the case. |
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By *stella OP Woman 45 weeks ago
London |
"
Where is the top level management in all this? If an entire team makes a formal complaint then that would be kicking off all sorts of warnings if I was higher up the management chain.
Agreed. The senior manager’s line manager is very tight with them. And she has also been problematic with the team. So it’s a perfect storm it’s them against an entire team.
More senior director level are starting to review given the number of issues but it’s all very toxic and all the individual suspension processes need to play out in due process. The team have lost both their middle managers, who are loved, there’s a locum manager in and the senior manager is safe - for now.
Fiasco.
I don’t know the size/type of the organisation but there is only a certain number of suspensions/issues a company can have before it triggers serious top level exec/board concern. If there are senior managers above then the fact that she is “tight” with her line manager is not going to last long when her line manager realises that those above want it sorted.
The _only_ time I have seen a senior manager supported with this number of suspensions is when the company actively wants the team cleared out and the manager has been explicitly brought in to change it. That said there are far better/easier ways of clearing out a team if that were the case."
Fair points. From the frontline staff up there are mid managers, then a Head (the senior manager in question), a Director, then a wider location Director and then the Senior Leadership Team (SLT) and then CEO. So it’s quite large.
I’m wondering if it is a case of clearing out as you say. But yeah, there’s better and quicker ways to do it. Two staff have been on suspension since March 2023 and the accused bullying middle manager who was trying to intervene has been suspended since beginning of October. And multiple staff in the team have had periods off with stress.
Apparently the SLT have asked for a culture review of the site where this is all happening, but it will be primarily led by the Director there who is tight with the problematic Senior Manager.
We’ll see. |
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