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White flag
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By *bat OP Man 49 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
Reading the account of the shooting of the three Israeli hostages by IDF, I couldn’t help but to wonder how many other non combatants have been shot when trying to surrender?
I want to see the terrorists caught and punished and I’m all for someone wielding a gun to be shot, but these guys were stripped to the waist and empty handed except for a white flag.
We’ve heard about these as the dead men were Israeli. How many dead Palestinians were killed in similar circumstances, when they’d done nothing wrong and we’ll never hear about it?
Terrorists are criminals and don’t follow rules, trained soldiers should be better than this.
Gbat |
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"Reading the account of the shooting of the three Israeli hostages by IDF, I couldn’t help but to wonder how many other non combatants have been shot when trying to surrender?
I want to see the terrorists caught and punished and I’m all for someone wielding a gun to be shot, but these guys were stripped to the waist and empty handed except for a white flag.
We’ve heard about these as the dead men were Israeli. How many dead Palestinians were killed in similar circumstances, when they’d done nothing wrong and we’ll never hear about it?
Terrorists are criminals and don’t follow rules, trained soldiers should be better than this.
Gbat "
Unfortunately this happens.
Active combat in a war zone isn't a clear cut as it is from the comfort of my sofa.
When it happens, it's a tragedy, regardless of what side you're on.
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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It’s complicated by the fact that so many hide behind civilians, making civilians targets
Maybe if Palestine didn’t support Hamas so much, and Hamas actually had some morals and didn’t hide behind women and children in hospitals and schools, the rules of engagement would be clearer
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It's an horrific situation and nobody should be killed any further. It's tragic that military people are pushed to killing others. And totally wrong that men who could have been contained otherwise, were shot in this situation. |
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By *ndycoinsMan 49 weeks ago
Whaley Bridge,Nr Buxton, |
"Reading the account of the shooting of the three Israeli hostages by IDF, I couldn’t help but to wonder how many other non combatants have been shot when trying to surrender?
I want to see the terrorists caught and punished and I’m all for someone wielding a gun to be shot, but these guys were stripped to the waist and empty handed except for a white flag.
We’ve heard about these as the dead men were Israeli. How many dead Palestinians were killed in similar circumstances, when they’d done nothing wrong and we’ll never hear about it?
Terrorists are criminals and don’t follow rules, trained soldiers should be better than this.
Gbat
Unfortunately this happens.
Active combat in a war zone isn't a clear cut as it is from the comfort of my sofa.
When it happens, it's a tragedy, regardless of what side you're on.
"
Correct. 
In relation to terrorists they don't wear uniforms in order to blend in with civvies.You try spotting a terrorist amongst a group,especially with weapon concealed,(even from your armchair). |
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By *bat OP Man 49 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
" ….the rules of engagement would be clearer "
I’m sure it’s very difficult a lot of the time. In this instance the IDF have already stated their rules of engagement were not followed.
I imagine there are other instances where the rules have not been followed, but we’ll never hear about them.
How many instances may have occurred when the shooting is an act of blind revenge rather than the fog of war.
Gbat |
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"Reading the account of the shooting of the three Israeli hostages by IDF, I couldn’t help but to wonder how many other non combatants have been shot when trying to surrender?
I want to see the terrorists caught and punished and I’m all for someone wielding a gun to be shot, but these guys were stripped to the waist and empty handed except for a white flag.
We’ve heard about these as the dead men were Israeli. How many dead Palestinians were killed in similar circumstances, when they’d done nothing wrong and we’ll never hear about it?
Terrorists are criminals and don’t follow rules, trained soldiers should be better than this.
Gbat
Unfortunately this happens.
Active combat in a war zone isn't a clear cut as it is from the comfort of my sofa.
When it happens, it's a tragedy, regardless of what side you're on.
Correct.
In relation to terrorists they don't wear uniforms in order to blend in with civvies.You try spotting a terrorist amongst a group,especially with weapon concealed,(even from your armchair)."
I taught a firearms course a few years ago.
Handed out a few weapons.
"Tell me which are real, which are deacts and which are props"
Very few people could tell them apart.
*picks up a random weapon and move 25 feet away...
"Same question"
*turns off the lights.....
"Same question"
I blame Hollywood for 99.99% of people's perception around action-on situations. |
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By *bat OP Man 49 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"In relation to terrorists they don't wear uniforms in order to blend in with civvies.You try spotting a terrorist amongst a group,especially with weapon concealed,(even from your armchair)."
I guess I’d rely on the training I had and subsequent experiences in the UK and Afghanistan. Mind you, even there I had access to an armchair.
How did you manage to differentiate?
And please remember, I’m talking about this specific incident not some theoretical terrorist incident.
Gbat |
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By *TG3Man 49 weeks ago
Dorchester |
"Reading the account of the shooting of the three Israeli hostages by IDF, I couldn’t help but to wonder how many other non combatants have been shot when trying to surrender?
I want to see the terrorists caught and punished and I’m all for someone wielding a gun to be shot, but these guys were stripped to the waist and empty handed except for a white flag.
We’ve heard about these as the dead men were Israeli. How many dead Palestinians were killed in similar circumstances, when they’d done nothing wrong and we’ll never hear about it?
Terrorists are criminals and don’t follow rules, trained soldiers should be better than this.
Gbat "
I don't read about any of it and thugs are thugs, going around killing people in the name of a country or an ideal is outdated and has no place in this world anymore, if you put weapons in the hands of thugs or soldiers whats the difference both kill. |
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By *bat OP Man 49 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"I blame Hollywood for 99.99% of people's perception around action-on situations."
Absolutely! Neutralise the threat, but you’ve got to identify it first.
One of the men even managed to take cover and shout in Hebrew before he was shot again, so it seems the IDF had time to pause and think this through.
Gbat
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"This is not about rescuing hostages this is an excuse for an ultra right wing government using HAMAS as an excuse to wipe out the Palestinian people and still more of their land."
Or....
It's a terrorist army, supported by a Palestinian government, trying to wipe out a nation state.
Potato potato.
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By *eavilMan 49 weeks ago
Stalybridge |
In a close quarter urban fire fight people are tense and scared and its too easy to fire first especially if the target doesn't have the same uniform as you. Its war and shit happens unfortunately. |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"This is not about rescuing hostages this is an excuse for an ultra right wing government using HAMAS as an excuse to wipe out the Palestinian people and still more of their land.
Or....
It's a terrorist army, supported by a Palestinian government, trying to wipe out a nation state.
Potato potato.
"
Or.... This didn't start on October 7, wasn't anything to do with Hamas because "Why the West Bank?" and Why did you undermine the PLO?,... or how can you engage and destroy hospitals, schools and shoot to kill journalists, or how can you firebomb a land where more than 50% of it's occupants are under 15, or why are 50% of its occupants 15 years old anyway isn't that questionable? Why are any of those 15s in prison/jail in Israel? Why the flagging continual violation of settlements? Why the security of the wall was ridiculously outwitted. How can your ambassadors say "there's never going to be a 2 state solution".
Let's be truthful...  |
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"This is not about rescuing hostages this is an excuse for an ultra right wing government using HAMAS as an excuse to wipe out the Palestinian people and still more of their land.
Or....
It's a terrorist army, supported by a Palestinian government, trying to wipe out a nation state.
Potato potato.
Or.... This didn't start on October 7, wasn't anything to do with Hamas because "Why the West Bank?" and Why did you undermine the PLO?,... or how can you engage and destroy hospitals, schools and shoot to kill journalists, or how can you firebomb a land where more than 50% of it's occupants are under 15, or why are 50% of its occupants 15 years old anyway isn't that questionable? Why are any of those 15s in prison/jail in Israel? Why the flagging continual violation of settlements? Why the security of the wall was ridiculously outwitted. How can your ambassadors say "there's never going to be a 2 state solution".
Let's be truthful... "
Truth. Whose truth?
Anything and everthing in the Middle East is complicated.
So much history. So many states and factions entwined and interlinked.
If anyone thinks stabilising the Middle East is simple, or black and white they need their bumps felt. |
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By *bat OP Man 49 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
" …. especially if the target doesn't have the same uniform as you. Its war and shit happens unfortunately."
The IDF were supposedly there to specifically look for these men and others.
They were stripped to the waist and waving a white flag. They shouted in Hebrew.
My worry is that it wasn’t a mistake in the heat of the moment, rather an example of a willingness to kill Palestinians. It seems the IDF might have a similar concern around these three deaths.
Gbat
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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The question that should be being asked is. Israel has dropped 29,000 air to ground munitions. Yet it has according to Hammas figures only managed to kill 19,000 people. That according to Israel and its supporters is a exaggeration.
So not even 1 kill per bomb.
Thats a very expensive kill rate. But I guess its ok, since its free gifts from American taxpayers and they don't have to pay for it. |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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Lots of articles and videos by ex IDF soldiers from previous campaigns, who have turned whistle-blowers and peace campaigners. They tell you what they are instructed to do and things they have seen. |
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"Lots of articles and videos by ex IDF soldiers from previous campaigns, who have turned whistle-blowers and peace campaigners. They tell you what they are instructed to do and things they have seen."
Plenty of people who've served over there will tell a different story.
The "truth" sits where your confirmation bias sits.
As a wise man once said, the first casualty of war is the truth. |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"Lots of articles and videos by ex IDF soldiers from previous campaigns, who have turned whistle-blowers and peace campaigners. They tell you what they are instructed to do and things they have seen.
Plenty of people who've served over there will tell a different story.
The "truth" sits where your confirmation bias sits.
As a wise man once said, the first casualty of war is the truth."
What are you on about? Nobody's even denying the numbers anymore. This isn't confirmation bias or potato potaato.
153 states voted against. Even Biden's started to question the whole "indiscriminate killing" bit.
What's convinced you that this is somehow anything different? |
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"Lots of articles and videos by ex IDF soldiers from previous campaigns, who have turned whistle-blowers and peace campaigners. They tell you what they are instructed to do and things they have seen.
Plenty of people who've served over there will tell a different story.
The "truth" sits where your confirmation bias sits.
As a wise man once said, the first casualty of war is the truth.
What are you on about? Nobody's even denying the numbers anymore. This isn't confirmation bias or potato potaato.
153 states voted against. Even Biden's started to question the whole "indiscriminate killing" bit.
What's convinced you that this is somehow anything different?"
I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment. |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"Lots of articles and videos by ex IDF soldiers from previous campaigns, who have turned whistle-blowers and peace campaigners. They tell you what they are instructed to do and things they have seen.
Plenty of people who've served over there will tell a different story.
The "truth" sits where your confirmation bias sits.
As a wise man once said, the first casualty of war is the truth."
Most people won't speak out against the crowd or tribe they come from. Much easier to keep your mouth shut and make life easy for yourself.
There really is no rewards for speaking against your own. Only isolation and persecution, only need to look at what happened to some of the whistle-blowers from Iraq and Afghanistan. But maybe some people's consciousness won't allow them to remain silent. |
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By *ister_EMan 49 weeks ago
Hayling Island |
It's gotten worse... New details reveal that the men wrote in hebrew on sheets that they hung on the side of the building took off their shirts to show they had no bombs, and were unarmed. They raised their hands to show they were no threat, waved white flags, and shouted out in Hebrew that there were unarmed Israeli's..... |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"It's gotten worse... New details reveal that the men wrote in hebrew on sheets that they hung on the side of the building took off their shirts to show they had no bombs, and were unarmed. They raised their hands to show they were no threat, waved white flags, and shouted out in Hebrew that there were unarmed Israeli's..... "
Sounds like typical Hamas behaviour, actions that could easily be confused under the fog of war. It's why so many journalists, medics and UN workers were also annihilated...
The IDF take every measure to protect innocent Palestinians. Like sending warnings to get out of the area, written on the sides of every bomb they're about to airdrop into Gaza.
Still can't believe people can't call this out for what it is. |
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It's just another war no different to any other.
People die, it's a tradegy. But them the facts.
Wars are just playground arguments but with big boys and guns!!
Pathetic...
I switched off too all media as it fuels the fire of negativity in the world!
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" ….the rules of engagement would be clearer
I’m sure it’s very difficult a lot of the time. In this instance the IDF have already stated their rules of engagement were not followed.
I imagine there are other instances where the rules have not been followed, but we’ll never hear about them.
How many instances may have occurred when the shooting is an act of blind revenge rather than the fog of war.
Gbat "
It’s happened since the first time humans went to war and it still happens today. Fortunately not very often at least in well disciplined armies, but I doubt it will ever totally stop. |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"This is not about rescuing hostages this is an excuse for an ultra right wing government using HAMAS as an excuse to wipe out the Palestinian people and still more of their land."
 |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"
Still can't believe people can't call this out for what it is."
When the same was happening between Russia and Ukraine it was condemned, wasn’t it? Now, because it’s brown people, Israel is protecting itself. 
Protecting itself from a people who can’t even leave a space akin to an open air prison fortified by Israel, under surveillance, without a military, etc.
With Israel’s extremely advanced military and surveillance capacities they well and truly can “hunt” only Hamas. This isn’t about Hamas and never was.
The oppressed and the oppressors are ro&&ed of humanity in all of this.
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"
The IDF were supposedly there to specifically look for these men and others.
My worry is that it wasn’t a mistake in the heat of the moment, rather an example of a willingness to kill Palestinians.
Gbat
"
If they can specifically look for any men it’s a question of why drop bombs across the entire cities, killing the civilians isn’t it?
It’s been demonstrated it’s an overwhelming willingness to ethnically cleanse the Palestine of its people. The land, Israel sits on, isn’t Israel’s. It’s a state created and forged forward by the U.K., and US in part. From the beginning, 1946 or 1948, this was always about getting rid of Palestine. |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"
The IDF were supposedly there to specifically look for these men and others.
My worry is that it wasn’t a mistake in the heat of the moment, rather an example of a willingness to kill Palestinians.
Gbat
If they can specifically look for any men it’s a question of why drop bombs across the entire cities, killing the civilians isn’t it?
It’s been demonstrated it’s an overwhelming willingness to ethnically cleanse the Palestine of its people. The land, Israel sits on, isn’t Israel’s. It’s a state created and forged forward by the U.K., and US in part. From the beginning, 1946 or 1948, this was always about getting rid of Palestine. "
The bombs are targeting at military targets |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"
Still can't believe people can't call this out for what it is.
When the same was happening between Russia and Ukraine it was condemned, wasn’t it? Now, because it’s brown people, Israel is protecting itself.
Protecting itself from a people who can’t even leave a space akin to an open air prison fortified by Israel, under surveillance, without a military, etc.
With Israel’s extremely advanced military and surveillance capacities they well and truly can “hunt” only Hamas. This isn’t about Hamas and never was.
The oppressed and the oppressors are ro&&ed of humanity in all of this.
"
Anyone even trying to compare the Ukraine Russia war to this situation should probably sit out. It shows a lack of understanding in the differences |
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"
Still can't believe people can't call this out for what it is.
When the same was happening between Russia and Ukraine it was condemned, wasn’t it? Now, because it’s brown people, Israel is protecting itself.
Protecting itself from a people who can’t even leave a space akin to an open air prison fortified by Israel, under surveillance, without a military, etc.
With Israel’s extremely advanced military and surveillance capacities they well and truly can “hunt” only Hamas. This isn’t about Hamas and never was.
The oppressed and the oppressors are ro&&ed of humanity in all of this.
Anyone even trying to compare the Ukraine Russia war to this situation should probably sit out. It shows a lack of understanding in the differences "
This. ^ |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"
The IDF were supposedly there to specifically look for these men and others.
My worry is that it wasn’t a mistake in the heat of the moment, rather an example of a willingness to kill Palestinians.
Gbat
If they can specifically look for any men it’s a question of why drop bombs across the entire cities, killing the civilians isn’t it?
It’s been demonstrated it’s an overwhelming willingness to ethnically cleanse the Palestine of its people. The land, Israel sits on, isn’t Israel’s. It’s a state created and forged forward by the U.K., and US in part. From the beginning, 1946 or 1948, this was always about getting rid of Palestine.
The bombs are targeting at military targets "
You do realise Palestine has no military right? So what military targets are these exactly? Israel’s own?
Israel has admitted the underground tunnels they claimed Hamas created were in fact created by Israel in the 1980s. These aren’t Hamas underground operation centres yet bombs have destroyed hospitals. There has never been evidence of Hamas in the West Bank and yet bombings have destroyed the West Bank.
There is no United military force in Palestine fighting against Israel. Hamas isn’t the majority in Palestine. |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"
Still can't believe people can't call this out for what it is.
When the same was happening between Russia and Ukraine it was condemned, wasn’t it? Now, because it’s brown people, Israel is protecting itself.
Protecting itself from a people who can’t even leave a space akin to an open air prison fortified by Israel, under surveillance, without a military, etc.
With Israel’s extremely advanced military and surveillance capacities they well and truly can “hunt” only Hamas. This isn’t about Hamas and never was.
The oppressed and the oppressors are ro&&ed of humanity in all of this.
Anyone even trying to compare the Ukraine Russia war to this situation should probably sit out. It shows a lack of understanding in the differences "
The only comparison I made was in relation to civilians being bombed. It was condemned between Russia and Ukraine but the same isn’t applied between Israel and Palestine.
Hamas as a terrorist group isn’t the majority. Civilians, babies, children under age 15 aren’t terrorists as a whole. The execution of entire families isn’t ridding the place of Hamas. Israel has the ability to hone in on Hamas but instead they are blanket bombing the entire zone. This is where my comparison comes come. Not the reason behind the ware in the first place.
With a history of genocide of their people, you’d think they’d approach ending Hamas differently. Humanity shouldn’t go out the window in a war. That was my point. |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"
The IDF were supposedly there to specifically look for these men and others.
My worry is that it wasn’t a mistake in the heat of the moment, rather an example of a willingness to kill Palestinians.
Gbat
If they can specifically look for any men it’s a question of why drop bombs across the entire cities, killing the civilians isn’t it?
It’s been demonstrated it’s an overwhelming willingness to ethnically cleanse the Palestine of its people. The land, Israel sits on, isn’t Israel’s. It’s a state created and forged forward by the U.K., and US in part. From the beginning, 1946 or 1948, this was always about getting rid of Palestine.
The bombs are targeting at military targets
You do realise Palestine has no military right? So what military targets are these exactly? Israel’s own?
Israel has admitted the underground tunnels they claimed Hamas created were in fact created by Israel in the 1980s. These aren’t Hamas underground operation centres yet bombs have destroyed hospitals. There has never been evidence of Hamas in the West Bank and yet bombings have destroyed the West Bank.
There is no United military force in Palestine fighting against Israel. Hamas isn’t the majority in Palestine. "
Hamas has military targets |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"
The IDF were supposedly there to specifically look for these men and others.
My worry is that it wasn’t a mistake in the heat of the moment, rather an example of a willingness to kill Palestinians.
Gbat
If they can specifically look for any men it’s a question of why drop bombs across the entire cities, killing the civilians isn’t it?
It’s been demonstrated it’s an overwhelming willingness to ethnically cleanse the Palestine of its people. The land, Israel sits on, isn’t Israel’s. It’s a state created and forged forward by the U.K., and US in part. From the beginning, 1946 or 1948, this was always about getting rid of Palestine.
The bombs are targeting at military targets
You do realise Palestine has no military right? So what military targets are these exactly? Israel’s own?
Israel has admitted the underground tunnels they claimed Hamas created were in fact created by Israel in the 1980s. These aren’t Hamas underground operation centres yet bombs have destroyed hospitals. There has never been evidence of Hamas in the West Bank and yet bombings have destroyed the West Bank.
There is no United military force in Palestine fighting against Israel. Hamas isn’t the majority in Palestine. "
Also, sorry, no evidence of Hamas in West Bank?
A group of IDF were killed in the West Bank by a Hamas attack like 2 weeks ago
I can’t really take the discussion any further because I feel like your missing enough key info that this won’t be a discussion, just 2 people shouting into the dark |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"It's gotten worse... New details reveal that the men wrote in hebrew on sheets that they hung on the side of the building took off their shirts to show they had no bombs, and were unarmed. They raised their hands to show they were no threat, waved white flags, and shouted out in Hebrew that there were unarmed Israeli's..... "
Maybe many IDF soldiers can't read Hebrew. I mean so many of them are migrants from around the world and also hold duel nationalities. |
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By *bat OP Man 49 weeks ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Maybe many IDF soldiers can't read Hebrew. I mean so many of them are migrants from around the world and also hold duel nationalities. "
I’m guessing you’re not being serious here? But even if you were, the IDF have already stated the incident was against their rules of engagement.
I can’t help thinking this isn’t tense trigger figures and the gig of war, but evidence that Israeli soldiers are happy to shoot anyone in front of their guns.
I’m not seeking your agreement. You can think what ever you think.
Gbat
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"Maybe many IDF soldiers can't read Hebrew. I mean so many of them are migrants from around the world and also hold duel nationalities.
I’m guessing you’re not being serious here? But even if you were, the IDF have already stated the incident was against their rules of engagement.
I can’t help thinking this isn’t tense trigger figures and the gig of war, but evidence that Israeli soldiers are happy to shoot anyone in front of their guns.
I’m not seeking your agreement. You can think what ever you think.
Gbat
"
26% of Israelis are immigrants. So they may well have not been educated in Hebrew. Are you totally dismissing the possibility.
But of course even if they couldn't read Hebrew, it doesn't excuse what happened. Also if the victims had been Palestinian, I doubt the world would have heard of the incident.. |
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By (user no longer on site) 49 weeks ago
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"
The IDF were supposedly there to specifically look for these men and others.
My worry is that it wasn’t a mistake in the heat of the moment, rather an example of a willingness to kill Palestinians.
Gbat
If they can specifically look for any men it’s a question of why drop bombs across the entire cities, killing the civilians isn’t it?
It’s been demonstrated it’s an overwhelming willingness to ethnically cleanse the Palestine of its people. The land, Israel sits on, isn’t Israel’s. It’s a state created and forged forward by the U.K., and US in part. From the beginning, 1946 or 1948, this was always about getting rid of Palestine.
The bombs are targeting at military targets
You do realise Palestine has no military right? So what military targets are these exactly? Israel’s own?
Israel has admitted the underground tunnels they claimed Hamas created were in fact created by Israel in the 1980s. These aren’t Hamas underground operation centres yet bombs have destroyed hospitals. There has never been evidence of Hamas in the West Bank and yet bombings have destroyed the West Bank.
There is no United military force in Palestine fighting against Israel. Hamas isn’t the majority in Palestine.
Also, sorry, no evidence of Hamas in West Bank?
A group of IDF were killed in the West Bank by a Hamas attack like 2 weeks ago
I can’t really take the discussion any further because I feel like your missing enough key info that this won’t be a discussion, just 2 people shouting into the dark "
IDF in the West Bank? But why 
Sounds like we're missing some key information here. |
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