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bankers bonuses
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Just on news the eu are proposing caps on bonuses rightly so in my view. Its not a ban but a cap. Set at no more than a years salary.
Our wonderful prime minister is to reject it. Says it all about the tories. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
Boris thinks it would be bad for London too.
It's difficult to defend bonus payments that exceed an already good annual salary. It will only work if the cap is global because the banks in question are global. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"You don't like the totals and you don't like the government, why don't you move there a better country??"
Evie, remember the check the spelling before hitting send? The totals is funny. |
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"You don't like the totals and you don't like the government, why don't you move there a better country??
Evie, remember the check the spelling before hitting send? The totals is funny."
I did check it but didn't check the correction!!!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrrr |
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Anyway. I was watching the news at lunchtime about this and they said all that would happen is that salaries would go up to compensate.
Therefore creating a sector that rewards before performance is proven rather than after. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Its difficult to justify them getting it yes, but its the nature of the banking infrastructure.
If we worked in it we wouldn't turn it down I imagine.
Life's not fair and equal, and for most of us nothing will change if they lose the bonuses, so is this really about the bonus or simple envy ? |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Anyway. I was watching the news at lunchtime about this and they said all that would happen is that salaries would go up to compensate.
Therefore creating a sector that rewards before performance is proven rather than after. "
Are they rewarding success with the current bonus culture? Bonus payments have been made when banks are posting accounts in deficit, by billions! How is that success? |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"So why should we punish the succesful bankers at the many succesful banks in the system?
Not all banks are posting deficits
"
No, they're not but what does it say when a bonus is paid to those that are? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Its difficult to justify them getting it yes, but its the nature of the banking infrastructure.
If we worked in it we wouldn't turn it down I imagine.
Life's not fair and equal, and for most of us nothing will change if they lose the bonuses, so is this really about the bonus or simple envy ? "
 |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Bonuses are essential. If not we'd lose the talent in this country, the banking sector would collapse and we'd quickly enter a deep depression.
That talent is irreplaceable, it's simply not possible to find people with enough intelligence at a more ordinary salary level...  |
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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago
(She/ her) in Sensualityland |
For me the news have been announced (deliberately perhaps) against the backdrop of (mostly) rising council tax, increasing living cost and a job market that leaves a lot to be desired especially for our young people.
I dont begrudge anybody a good living, I dont have a problem with exceptional people being paid exceptional bonuses.
I just feel for those who find it increasingly difficult to meet payments knowing that a Bank owned (is it 82%?) by the public pays these high bonuses at a time when they are really struggling. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"You don't like the totals and you don't like the government, why don't you move there a better country??"
No i do not like the totals who are in government thats beauty of democracy i can say what i like.
I never voted them in so morecthan justified in criticising.
As it is now bankers are getting bonuses for failure that cannot be right. I am not against bonuses but only as reward for doing good job. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Bonuses are essential. If not we'd lose the talent in this country, the banking sector would collapse and we'd quickly enter a deep depression."
Much like now.
" That talent is irreplaceable, it's simply not possible to find people with enough intelligence at a more ordinary salary level... "
That's a strange view of intelligence. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Possibly not obviously sarcastic enough
Irritates the fuck out of me that people argue that money buys talent. Only if you're too stupid and lazy to allow it to.
Bankers and huge business leaders have become the modern day gods to which we're all expected to make sacrifices. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"They get paid and get a bonus to make money . If somebody offered me a million pound bonus i would sleep at work and never see mu family . Good on the bankers "
Thats the issue they are losing money not making profits. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You don't like the totals and you don't like the government, why don't you move there a better country??
Evie, remember the check the spelling before hitting send? The totals is funny."
"Remember the check the spelling"....one should take ones own advice. Irony at its best.  |
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"So why should we punish the succesful bankers at the many succesful banks in the system?
Not all banks are posting deficits
No, they're not but what does it say when a bonus is paid to those that are?"
Have you considered the amount of debt they may have saved those banks with their expertice?....
If banker(a) works hard enough and is skilled enough to cut the extent of the debt at their bank then is he/she not entitled to a bonus for their efforts?
You simply cannot tar every employee of any company with the same brush |
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"They get paid and get a bonus to make money . If somebody offered me a million pound bonus i would sleep at work and never see mu family . Good on the bankers
Thats the issue they are losing money not making profits."
What....all of them? |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"You don't like the totals and you don't like the government, why don't you move there a better country??
Evie, remember the check the spelling before hitting send? The totals is funny.
"Remember the check the spelling"....one should take ones own advice. Irony at its best. "
It's exactly what I meant to write. I could have put quotation marks around "check the spelling" to make it clearer perhaps. |
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"Bonuses are essential. If not we'd lose the talent in this country, the banking sector would collapse and we'd quickly enter a deep depression.
That talent is irreplaceable, it's simply not possible to find people with enough intelligence at a more ordinary salary level... "
Not sure i fully agree, American Bankers get no where near the bonuses in European banks, and are more long term in judging results.
Its interesting that the European banks have already hinted they will put up the salary scale to compensate anyway.
And so the wheel turns full circle again.  |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
" ...........
Have you considered the amount of debt they may have saved those banks with their expertice?....
If banker(a) works hard enough and is skilled enough to cut the extent of the debt at their bank then is he/she not entitled to a bonus for their efforts?
You simply cannot tar every employee of any company with the same brush"
What if s/he ran up that debt in the first place?
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Corporate tax is at 20%, most of these instituions currently run at a loss or pay tax in cheaper countries, ie RBS fifth year in a row in the red... thus we as tax payers get none of the money...
why not let them get money, spend it, employ people or entertain the economy, worst case they put it in their bank and get taxed on that...best case they spend it and help business grow...
when most banks cut bonuses in 2011/12 it cost of £500 mil in tax!!!
so is the other side of the coin, them not getting any, ergo us getting even less out of their pay really better? |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
" ......
why not let them get money, spend it, employ people or entertain the economy, worst case they put it in their bank and get taxed on that...best case they spend it and help business grow...
..........."
You mean have a growth strategy? David Cameron will never go for that  |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"So why should we punish the succesful bankers at the many succesful banks in the system?
Not all banks are posting deficits
No, they're not but what does it say when a bonus is paid to those that are?
Have you considered the amount of debt they may have saved those banks with their expertice?....
If banker(a) works hard enough and is skilled enough to cut the extent of the debt at their bank then is he/she not entitled to a bonus for their efforts?
You simply cannot tar every employee of any company with the same brush"
I really don't. I have thought about the debt mitigation. I don't want to punish hard work. I don't think the culture is correct, my view, and it caused some of the problems we are seeing. My point is two-fold: a) how do we present success?; b) the practice is globalised so a localised response will not deal with it. |
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"So why should we punish the succesful bankers at the many succesful banks in the system?
Not all banks are posting deficits
No, they're not but what does it say when a bonus is paid to those that are?
Have you considered the amount of debt they may have saved those banks with their expertice?....
If banker(a) works hard enough and is skilled enough to cut the extent of the debt at their bank then is he/she not entitled to a bonus for their efforts?
You simply cannot tar every employee of any company with the same brush"
Well to be honest as the tax payer has propped them up for not seeing the impending financial doom from across the pond i think we can. We are re-capitalizing the banks every time we hit the quantitative easing button 75bn here 100bn there.
It goes in and should filter down,but it isn't its going in our money and sitting there. There should be no bonuses until they can pay their own way and are profitable again . IMHO
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Can somebody explain the 'talent'?
How do they compare to people that can
- do heart operations?
- fly a plane in battle?
- create life saving drugs?
Or is that we need to pay them so much more than any of those, to maintain the lie on which our whole economic system is based?
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Can somebody explain the 'talent'?
How do they compare to people that can
- do heart operations?
- fly a plane in battle?
- create life saving drugs?
Or is that we need to pay them so much more than any of those, to maintain the lie on which our whole economic system is based?
"
I get what you're saying but it's an odd point to start.... look at our culture... how we celebrate celebrities...footballers... who complains about their pay?! their wages? at least a ceo has to carry a responsibility for thousands of employees... |
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By *Ryan-Man
over a year ago
In Your Bush |
"You don't like the totals and you don't like the government, why don't you move there a better country??
Evie, remember the check the spelling before hitting send? The totals is funny.
"Remember the check the spelling"....one should take ones own advice. Irony at its best.
It's exactly what I meant to write. I could have put quotation marks around "check the spelling" to make it clearer perhaps."
That was a bit like telling Delia how to cook an egg  |
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" ...........
Have you considered the amount of debt they may have saved those banks with their expertice?....
If banker(a) works hard enough and is skilled enough to cut the extent of the debt at their bank then is he/she not entitled to a bonus for their efforts?
You simply cannot tar every employee of any company with the same brush
What if s/he ran up that debt in the first place?
"
No one person will be responsible for the total debts of a bank....there are many aspects to factor into the total debt of a bank as has been pointed out today by RBS....so if Banker(a) runs an investment arm that earns a bank £250 million profit in a year then why should he pay for the bad performance of another arm of the company?
|
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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago
(She/ her) in Sensualityland |
"Can somebody explain the 'talent'?
How do they compare to people that can
- do heart operations?
- fly a plane in battle?
- create life saving drugs?
Or is that we need to pay them so much more than any of those, to maintain the lie on which our whole economic system is based?
"
I would agree with you there - and what happens when pilots or surgeons get it wrong...?  |
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"Its difficult to justify them getting it yes, but its the nature of the banking infrastructure.
If we worked in it we wouldn't turn it down I imagine.
Life's not fair and equal, and for most of us nothing will change if they lose the bonuses, so is this really about the bonus or simple envy ? "
|
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"So why should we punish the succesful bankers at the many succesful banks in the system?
Not all banks are posting deficits
No, they're not but what does it say when a bonus is paid to those that are?
Have you considered the amount of debt they may have saved those banks with their expertice?....
If banker(a) works hard enough and is skilled enough to cut the extent of the debt at their bank then is he/she not entitled to a bonus for their efforts?
You simply cannot tar every employee of any company with the same brush
I really don't. I have thought about the debt mitigation. I don't want to punish hard work. I don't think the culture is correct, my view, and it caused some of the problems we are seeing. My point is two-fold: a) how do we present success?; b) the practice is globalised so a localised response will not deal with it."
If you're going to reward employees over and above their not inconsiderable basic salary, it should be done on the basis of the success of the decisions they make.
It shouldn't matter where those decisions are effected, only the profitability or otherwise of the decision, but if there's to be no limit on the upside, there can be no limit on the downside.
I'd live with setting aside a small %age to go into a common bonus fund. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Can somebody explain the 'talent'?
How do they compare to people that can
- do heart operations?
- fly a plane in battle?
- create life saving drugs?
Or is that we need to pay them so much more than any of those, to maintain the lie on which our whole economic system is based?
I get what you're saying but it's an odd point to start.... look at our culture... how we celebrate celebrities...footballers... who complains about their pay?! their wages? at least a ceo has to carry a responsibility for thousands of employees..."
I complain about the celebrity culture and what is paid. We have a very skewed view of what is valuable. All the rich people I know tell me how much they are given for free, just so that they are seen somewhere on in something. They get used it after a while and then start complaining when they are asked to pay for something.
A few get paid a lot. It's not fair but it is the world we inhabit. It will only change if our values change. |
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"Can somebody explain the 'talent'?
How do they compare to people that can
- do heart operations?
- fly a plane in battle?
- create life saving drugs?
Or is that we need to pay them so much more than any of those, to maintain the lie on which our whole economic system is based?
"
The talent is a trader knowing when to buy and when to sell shares, an investment banker knowing when and when not to offer investment to a company...if you truly believe there is no talent within the banking community you would be very mistaken. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I have no idea how complex and difficult/easy banking is.
I reserve my judgement of what I think others should and shouldn't have until I've experienced their position and responsibilities.
How easy it is to pass judgement on others jobs and lets face it....we the borrowing public carry a percentage of the blame for the problems, through the must have at all costs culture !
Feel free to become bankers and change it all though ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
The talent is a trader knowing when to buy and when to sell shares, an investment banker knowing when and when not to offer investment to a company...if you truly believe there is no talent within the banking community you would be very mistaken."
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Can somebody explain the 'talent'?
How do they compare to people that can
- do heart operations?
- fly a plane in battle?
- create life saving drugs?
Or is that we need to pay them so much more than any of those, to maintain the lie on which our whole economic system is based?
I get what you're saying but it's an odd point to start.... look at our culture... how we celebrate celebrities...footballers... who complains about their pay?! their wages? at least a ceo has to carry a responsibility for thousands of employees..."
erm - me!
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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago
(She/ her) in Sensualityland |
"
A few get paid a lot. It's not fair but it is the world we inhabit. It will only change if our values change."
Well said - and while I would love to see it happen I am not optimistic that it will happen any time soon.
Sadly people raise their standards and have better values during bad times... IMHO. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
" ...........
Have you considered the amount of debt they may have saved those banks with their expertice?....
If banker(a) works hard enough and is skilled enough to cut the extent of the debt at their bank then is he/she not entitled to a bonus for their efforts?
You simply cannot tar every employee of any company with the same brush
What if s/he ran up that debt in the first place?
No one person will be responsible for the total debts of a bank....there are many aspects to factor into the total debt of a bank as has been pointed out today by RBS....so if Banker(a) runs an investment arm that earns a bank £250 million profit in a year then why should he pay for the bad performance of another arm of the company?
"
Why should the carpark attendant at Gogarburn get a bonus? |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"So why should we punish the succesful bankers at the many succesful banks in the system?
Not all banks are posting deficits
No, they're not but what does it say when a bonus is paid to those that are?
Have you considered the amount of debt they may have saved those banks with their expertice?....
If banker(a) works hard enough and is skilled enough to cut the extent of the debt at their bank then is he/she not entitled to a bonus for their efforts?
You simply cannot tar every employee of any company with the same brush
I really don't. I have thought about the debt mitigation. I don't want to punish hard work. I don't think the culture is correct, my view, and it caused some of the problems we are seeing. My point is two-fold: a) how do we present success?; b) the practice is globalised so a localised response will not deal with it.
If you're going to reward employees over and above their not inconsiderable basic salary, it should be done on the basis of the success of the decisions they make.
It shouldn't matter where those decisions are effected, only the profitability or otherwise of the decision, but if there's to be no limit on the upside, there can be no limit on the downside.
I'd live with setting aside a small %age to go into a common bonus fund."
So would I - it's how John Lewis distribute their partnership bonuses. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"
A few get paid a lot. It's not fair but it is the world we inhabit. It will only change if our values change.Well said - and while I would love to see it happen I am not optimistic that it will happen any time soon.
Sadly people raise their standards and have better values during bad times... IMHO."
My heart sinks when anyone over the age of 8 talks about 'fair'  |
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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago
(She/ her) in Sensualityland |
"
A few get paid a lot. It's not fair but it is the world we inhabit. It will only change if our values change.Well said - and while I would love to see it happen I am not optimistic that it will happen any time soon.
Sadly people raise their standards and have better values during bad times... IMHO.
My heart sinks when anyone over the age of 8 talks about 'fair' "
Actually, it shoud be a different thread... the concept of "fair" because one person's "fair" is another person's misery, dont you think? |
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" ...........
Have you considered the amount of debt they may have saved those banks with their expertice?....
If banker(a) works hard enough and is skilled enough to cut the extent of the debt at their bank then is he/she not entitled to a bonus for their efforts?
You simply cannot tar every employee of any company with the same brush
What if s/he ran up that debt in the first place?
No one person will be responsible for the total debts of a bank....there are many aspects to factor into the total debt of a bank as has been pointed out today by RBS....so if Banker(a) runs an investment arm that earns a bank £250 million profit in a year then why should he pay for the bad performance of another arm of the company?
Why should the carpark attendant at Gogarburn get a bonus?"
Why not?....did the carpark make a loss?, if so was it his fault?
Because he works for a company that has a bonus scheme..... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Can somebody explain the 'talent'?
How do they compare to people that can
- do heart operations?
- fly a plane in battle?
- create life saving drugs?
Or is that we need to pay them so much more than any of those, to maintain the lie on which our whole economic system is based?
The talent is a trader knowing when to buy and when to sell shares, an investment banker knowing when and when not to offer investment to a company...if you truly believe there is no talent within the banking community you would be very mistaken."
That's no talent at all. It's gambling, and it's gambling based on manufactured currency.
It simply does not compare to other jobs that require genuine talent and for which people need to train for years.
If people are willing to make sacrifices to be able to perform brain surgery, I see no rational argument that it's impossible to find suitable people to operate banks at comparable salaries to those surgeons.
Talent is not the real issue here - a sense of proportion and power is. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"
A few get paid a lot. It's not fair but it is the world we inhabit. It will only change if our values change.Well said - and while I would love to see it happen I am not optimistic that it will happen any time soon.
Sadly people raise their standards and have better values during bad times... IMHO.
My heart sinks when anyone over the age of 8 talks about 'fair' "
That'll be why I am despairing of this government changing the language to fairness. |
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"Can somebody explain the 'talent'?
How do they compare to people that can
- do heart operations?
- fly a plane in battle?
- create life saving drugs?
Or is that we need to pay them so much more than any of those, to maintain the lie on which our whole economic system is based?
The talent is a trader knowing when to buy and when to sell shares, an investment banker knowing when and when not to offer investment to a company...if you truly believe there is no talent within the banking community you would be very mistaken.
That's no talent at all. It's gambling, and it's gambling based on manufactured currency.
It simply does not compare to other jobs that require genuine talent and for which people need to train for years.
If people are willing to make sacrifices to be able to perform brain surgery, I see no rational argument that it's impossible to find suitable people to operate banks at comparable salaries to those surgeons.
Talent is not the real issue here - a sense of proportion and power is."
The talent is knowing when to gamble and when to not..... there is undoubtably an enormous amount of skill attached to successfully trading the markets...skill that comes from experience I should imagine |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
That's no talent at all. It's gambling, and it's gambling based on manufactured currency.
It simply does not compare to other jobs that require genuine talent and for which people need to train for years.
"
wow... does not require training... I love the right people feel to judge what they have never experienced...
Trust me...years at some of the best universities, 90+ hour average weeks for three years and that's just as an analyst is more training than any pilot will undergo... it's a very week argument when one compares what cannot be like for like, ie bankers and brain surgens!
But it sounds like you have it all figured out |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"
A few get paid a lot. It's not fair but it is the world we inhabit. It will only change if our values change.Well said - and while I would love to see it happen I am not optimistic that it will happen any time soon.
Sadly people raise their standards and have better values during bad times... IMHO.
My heart sinks when anyone over the age of 8 talks about 'fair' Actually, it shoud be a different thread... the concept of "fair" because one person's "fair" is another person's misery, dont you think? "
Fair always seems to mean 'how I think'. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
".........Talent is not the real issue here - a sense of proportion and power is.
The talent is knowing when to gamble and when to not..... there is undoubtably an enormous amount of skill attached to successfully trading the markets...skill that comes from experience I should imagine"
It's an odd sort of gamble where you get paid whether you win or lose. |
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By *phroditeWoman
over a year ago
(She/ her) in Sensualityland |
"
A few get paid a lot. It's not fair but it is the world we inhabit. It will only change if our values change.Well said - and while I would love to see it happen I am not optimistic that it will happen any time soon.
Sadly people raise their standards and have better values during bad times... IMHO.
My heart sinks when anyone over the age of 8 talks about 'fair' Actually, it shoud be a different thread... the concept of "fair" because one person's "fair" is another person's misery, dont you think?
Fair always seems to mean 'how I think'."
Of course it does. That was my point.
Thing is... the whole topic is very much about whether you look at things from an individual's (both sides) perspective, from an economist's point or a humanist (charity's) perspective etc.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
That's no talent at all. It's gambling, and it's gambling based on manufactured currency.
It simply does not compare to other jobs that require genuine talent and for which people need to train for years.
wow... does not require training... I love the right people feel to judge what they have never experienced...
Trust me...years at some of the best universities, 90+ hour average weeks for three years and that's just as an analyst is more training than any pilot will undergo... it's a very week argument when one compares what cannot be like for like, ie bankers and brain surgens!
But it sounds like you have it all figured out"
Why would people not have a right to judge?!
I'm happy to be educated in my ignorance though. So please can you explain the training and skills needed before you can qualify as an investment banker? |
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The problem i have is as _nny said earlier if the bonuses are pushed up by
performance ,why doesnt the overall lack of performance drive them down to basic wages.
Its win win for teams of senior management who take turns to baste each other in cash and incentives (thank god that is soon to end) ,and for what ...
Doing their job.
Every time a train arrives safely should we give the driver and guard a bonus at the same level..
Even if they screw up they have written in eye watering severance and get out deals,incentive payments ,more like a gravy train.
Here's a novel idea,let them have all the bonuses they want ,but until the debt to the public purse is paid back tax it at source at 90%.
fat cats ,fat chance |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"
..........I'm happy to be educated in my ignorance though. So please can you explain the training and skills needed before you can qualify as an investment banker?"
I think you have to be the son of an investment banker. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
..........I'm happy to be educated in my ignorance though. So please can you explain the training and skills needed before you can qualify as an investment banker?
I think you have to be the son of an investment banker."
Well that may take some talent |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"
..........I'm happy to be educated in my ignorance though. So please can you explain the training and skills needed before you can qualify as an investment banker?
I think you have to be the son of an investment banker."
When I worked in this world we called them Merchant Bankers. It can be a very heady world. The most successful were very confident about their abilities to make money. The most unsuccessful were very confident about their abilities to make money. All of them got their jobs because of their confidence.
I have also met the family generations of bankers. Most of them have gone now. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
I'm happy to be educated in my ignorance though. So please can you explain the training and skills needed before you can qualify as an investment banker?"
Conversely to most peoples' understanding a pure investment banker does not deal with shares (ie is a Trader or Equity researcher)... He works in M&A, thus advices CEOs, shareholders and executive boards on potential expansion or defence against other companies (ie M&A) or structural finance (e.g. how to raise money, IPOs etc etc...).
Most CEOs these days come from top universities and have a considerable track record in order to be even considered for publicly traded companies...
So, in order for someone like that to seek advice from an investment banker they not only need to bring foresight and understanding for the company they are advising but much more so, they need to develop an array of skills to an exceptional level!
And while we are at it, bankers, unlike consultants on a project only get paid if the job gets done!
They undergo months and years of mathematical/financial modeling training and all have degrees, frequently representing the top 3% of graduates.. many are actually easily qualified enough to work in medicine, physics etc...
|
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"
..........I'm happy to be educated in my ignorance though. So please can you explain the training and skills needed before you can qualify as an investment banker?
I think you have to be the son of an investment banker.
Well that may take some talent"
The training doesn't look too hard to me A'level maths + english etc followed by a degree ,and actuaries course or masters in financial market analysis.
No way that justifies the bonuses awarded even if they are the hottest kids on the block and no where near even the most basic medical doctorate.
After which you start on about 24k. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Thanks.
And that compares to brain surgeons?
I'm not by any meaning to suggest all bankers are idiots - I'm sure many are hugely intelligent and work hard hours, deal with massive stress.
But... If it's possible to recruit people to perform surgery for which they have to train for longer, get paid less and then literally have lives in their hands - I can't accept that it is necessary (or right) to pay the sums paid to what doesn't seem to me to be as skilled or as valuable a job. |
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"
I'm happy to be educated in my ignorance though. So please can you explain the training and skills needed before you can qualify as an investment banker?
Conversely to most peoples' understanding a pure investment banker does not deal with shares (ie is a Trader or Equity researcher)... He works in M&A, thus advices CEOs, shareholders and executive boards on potential expansion or defence against other companies (ie M&A) or structural finance (e.g. how to raise money, IPOs etc etc...).
Most CEOs these days come from top universities and have a considerable track record in order to be even considered for publicly traded companies...
So, in order for someone like that to seek advice from an investment banker they not only need to bring foresight and understanding for the company they are advising but much more so, they need to develop an array of skills to an exceptional level!
And while we are at it, bankers, unlike consultants on a project only get paid if the job gets done!
They undergo months and years of mathematical/financial modeling training and all have degrees, frequently representing the top 3% of graduates.. many are actually easily qualified enough to work in medicine, physics etc...
"
I think your talking about seasoned CEOs
etc who although earn large sums of money probably could earn that in any industry they want based on business acumen
However lets take a high profile trader like Nick leeson who's past is well publicized.There is no way he had the level of experience you are discussing
when he was sent to Singapore (after being refused a brokers license in the uk) and given hundreds of millions to toss around the stock market on a wing and a prayer.
I accept there is a different level of regulatory governance the higher up the ladder you go,however anyone can spin the wheel for a while and win. Million pound bonuses for "gambling" with other peoples investments promotes short term strategies. And that philosophy has to lie at the door of the people at the top .
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By *UNCHBOXMan
over a year ago
folkestone |
"Bonuses are essential. If not we'd lose the talent in this country, the banking sector would collapse and we'd quickly enter a deep depression.
That talent is irreplaceable, it's simply not possible to find people with enough intelligence at a more ordinary salary level... "
Im confused... because this 'talent' you refer to were responsible for very nearly bringing down the whole western economy with their giant pass the parcel schemes.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"For me the news have been announced (deliberately perhaps) against the backdrop of (mostly) rising council tax, increasing living cost and a job market that leaves a lot to be desired especially for our young people.
I dont begrudge anybody a good living, I dont have a problem with exceptional people being paid exceptional bonuses.
I just feel for those who find it increasingly difficult to meet payments knowing that a Bank owned (is it 82%?) by the public pays these high bonuses at a time when they are really struggling."
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Having been a client to whom most investment bankers offered advice and services, I can say that on the whole I was deeply unimpressed with the "talent" on offer. For the most part the original ideas and thought comes from the client and the banker facilitates. I genuinely view them as over paid estate agents, people unfortunately that you need rather than want.
Bonuses should be paid on long term value creation for clients and shareholders. If a banker advises on a deal that turns out to be shit, the client should get a fee refunded. If a trader takes a position that after 3 months is in the money but is losing money after 2 years there should be clawback on bonuses.
Rewards should be based on long term (10 years) profitability and structured as such, it will take out the casion mentality and get people focussed on creating sustainable profits over time. This would erradicate rogue short term behaviour like LIBOR rigging, fraud etc.
Big rewards for long term prosperity for all stakeholders: fine by me.
Big rewards for short term success at the expense of long term stability: fucking madness. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Bonuses are essential. If not we'd lose the talent in this country, the banking sector would collapse and we'd quickly enter a deep depression.
That talent is irreplaceable, it's simply not possible to find people with enough intelligence at a more ordinary salary level...
Im confused... because this 'talent' you refer to were responsible for very nearly bringing down the whole western economy with their giant pass the parcel schemes.
"
Hence sarcastic smiley |
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"
..........I'm happy to be educated in my ignorance though. So please can you explain the training and skills needed before you can qualify as an investment banker?
I think you have to be the son of an investment banker."
I often read your posts and agree with you, however with posts like this you appear to have an enormous chip on your shoulder and an agenda against anyone who dares to earn more than the average person....
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"
..........I'm happy to be educated in my ignorance though. So please can you explain the training and skills needed before you can qualify as an investment banker?
I think you have to be the son of an investment banker.
I often read your posts and agree with you, however with posts like this you appear to have an enormous chip on your shoulder and an agenda against anyone who dares to earn more than the average person....
"
I'm saddened you feel that way.
Until my premature retirement I EARNED "more than the average person".
I emphasise earned 'cos a lot of people don't actually earn what they're paid.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Bonuses are essential. If not we'd lose the talent in this country, the banking sector would collapse and we'd quickly enter a deep depression.
That talent is irreplaceable, it's simply not possible to find people with enough intelligence at a more ordinary salary level...
Im confused... because this 'talent' you refer to were responsible for very nearly bringing down the whole western economy with their giant pass the parcel schemes.
Well yes & no. If the Premiership football clubs all go bust from too much debt are we all going to blame the greedy football agents for their demise?
The fact is that football agents & bankers work independently for the maximum gain possible. What is needed is good regulation to ensure that bankers or football agents or whatever else do not get out of control.
So I wouldn't blame the bankers, I would blame Gordon "I've abolished boom & bust" Brown who boasted about his "Light touch regulation" which led to the bankers going totally out of control with no redress from the Bank of England or the FSA.
"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
..........I'm happy to be educated in my ignorance though. So please can you explain the training and skills needed before you can qualify as an investment banker?
I think you have to be the son of an investment banker.
I often read your posts and agree with you, however with posts like this you appear to have an enormous chip on your shoulder and an agenda against anyone who dares to earn more than the average person....
I'm saddened you feel that way.
Until my premature retirement I EARNED "more than the average person".
I emphasise earned 'cos a lot of people don't actually earn what they're paid.
"
I think that is a mass generalisation. For the most part, in highly paid sectors high achievers are paid what stakeholders think they are worth based on a whole range of measurements. For example you may feel Lionel Messi earning €500k per week is not being earned, but the value he brings to the club over and above the goals he scores in terms of merchandise, sponsorship etc is valued by his employer and he is paid. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"
I think that is a mass generalisation. For the most part, in highly paid sectors high achievers are paid what stakeholders think they are worth based on a whole range of measurements. For example you may feel Lionel Messi earning €500k per week is not being earned, but the value he brings to the club over and above the goals he scores in terms of merchandise, sponsorship etc is valued by his employer and he is paid. "
It's hard to believe anyone is using a footballer as an example of value for money. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
I think that is a mass generalisation. For the most part, in highly paid sectors high achievers are paid what stakeholders think they are worth based on a whole range of measurements. For example you may feel Lionel Messi earning €500k per week is not being earned, but the value he brings to the club over and above the goals he scores in terms of merchandise, sponsorship etc is valued by his employer and he is paid.
It's hard to believe anyone is using a footballer as an example of value for money."
It is the perfect example. By your definition he kicks a ball around and is not "earning" what he is paid. For Barcelona he generates millions of €s of revenue from shirt sales, TV revenues etc etc. If his employers did not think he was worth it, he would not be paid it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There is a huge lack of understanding on how banks work in this thread. Yes they pay bonuses however its paid on global trade not just on UK trade, the banks pay income tax in the UK, the banks pay billions in tax the HSBC paid £1.2billion in taxes last year alone.
It may not be fair to some bankers getting large bonuses but get real only a fool would want to tax 90% of it. Do that and all that will happen is the banks will relocate to the US or the far east. Will they pay huge sums of tax in the UK like they do now? Will the bankers stop in the UK? They will go abroad and we will be triggering the brain drain as loony labour did in the past.
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"
It's hard to believe anyone is using a footballer as an example of value for money.
It is the perfect example. By your definition he kicks a ball around and is not "earning" what he is paid. For Barcelona he generates millions of €s of revenue from shirt sales, TV revenues etc etc. If his employers did not think he was worth it, he would not be paid it. "
I'm a long way from convinced that's true.
I think some businesses, especially football, have been convinced that they MUST pay over the odds for 'talent' and then expect others to fund their vanity. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"There is a huge lack of understanding on how banks work in this thread. Yes they pay bonuses however its paid on global trade not just on UK trade, the banks pay income tax in the UK, the banks pay billions in tax the HSBC paid £1.2billion in taxes last year alone. ..................
"
Any bank paying income tax needs a new accountant. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
It's hard to believe anyone is using a footballer as an example of value for money.
It is the perfect example. By your definition he kicks a ball around and is not "earning" what he is paid. For Barcelona he generates millions of €s of revenue from shirt sales, TV revenues etc etc. If his employers did not think he was worth it, he would not be paid it.
I'm a long way from convinced that's true.
I think some businesses, especially football, have been convinced that they MUST pay over the odds for 'talent' and then expect others to fund their vanity."
And ultimately if those who run Barcelona are proved wrong they will be held accountable. That is capitalism. If you want a communist society there are still some out there that are looking for recruits. I hear N Korea is a great place to live right now! |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"
..........I think some businesses, especially football, have been convinced that they MUST pay over the odds for 'talent' and then expect others to fund their vanity.
And ultimately if those who run Barcelona are proved wrong they will be held accountable. ............."
Nah, they'll just sack the manager. That's what the people who run football clubs do. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"
It's hard to believe anyone is using a footballer as an example of value for money.
It is the perfect example. By your definition he kicks a ball around and is not "earning" what he is paid. For Barcelona he generates millions of €s of revenue from shirt sales, TV revenues etc etc. If his employers did not think he was worth it, he would not be paid it.
I'm a long way from convinced that's true.
I think some businesses, especially football, have been convinced that they MUST pay over the odds for 'talent' and then expect others to fund their vanity.
And ultimately if those who run Barcelona are proved wrong they will be held accountable. That is capitalism. If you want a communist society there are still some out there that are looking for recruits. I hear N Korea is a great place to live right now! "
The disparity between rich and poor is something like 28% in the USA and 25% here, the top two OECD positions. Belgium has a disparity of 4%. They're part of the capitalist west. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"................
The disparity between rich and poor is something like 28% in the USA and 25% here, the top two OECD positions. Belgium has a disparity of 4%. They're part of the capitalist west."
Eh? Where did that 'statistic' come from? |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"................
The disparity between rich and poor is something like 28% in the USA and 25% here, the top two OECD positions. Belgium has a disparity of 4%. They're part of the capitalist west.
Eh? Where did that 'statistic' come from?"
OECD figures, from memory mind but that's where I got them originally. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Would anyone be happy to receive their salary in cash and close down their current accounts? Keep the cash out of the banks hands and see how the country, as a whole, fairs? They are not really as important as they like to think they are, or would like you to think they are. |
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"Would anyone be happy to receive their salary in cash and close down their current accounts? Keep the cash out of the banks hands and see how the country, as a whole, fairs? They are not really as important as they like to think they are, or would like you to think they are."
Wouldn't work for the majority of workers as many employers will only pay earnings through the bank, probably most employers in this day and age... |
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By *icky55Man
over a year ago
Warm an cosy cave. Brist |
The banks are bricking it, Because of "Bank on Dave" in burnly, who pays 5% interest on savings, which is risk free, and he lends to local busneses, the profits go to local charities, no big fat bonus and it's honest. It's a comunity Bank.
"WE NEED ONE LIKE IT IN EVERY CITY" |
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"The banks are bricking it, Because of "Bank on Dave" in burnly, who pays 5% interest on savings, which is risk free, and he lends to local busneses, the profits go to local charities, no big fat bonus and it's honest. It's a comunity Bank.
"WE NEED ONE LIKE IT IN EVERY CITY" "
I certainly wouldn't use his bank... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Only because they were told they had to, by the government. They wanted it brought in under the guise of security (no wage snatches). But all it did was put billions into the banks overnight. And all organised by the banks best friend - Thatcher! |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"The banks are bricking it, Because of "Bank on Dave" in burnly, who pays 5% interest on savings, which is risk free, and he lends to local busneses, the profits go to local charities, no big fat bonus and it's honest. It's a comunity Bank.
"WE NEED ONE LIKE IT IN EVERY CITY" "
That is his campaign mantra. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"................
The disparity between rich and poor is something like 28% in the USA and 25% here, the top two OECD positions. Belgium has a disparity of 4%. They're part of the capitalist west.
Eh? Where did that 'statistic' come from?
OECD figures, from memory mind but that's where I got them originally."
That's OK. Take overnight. Check it out. |
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"The banks are bricking it, Because of "Bank on Dave" in burnly, who pays 5% interest on savings, which is risk free, and he lends to local busneses, the profits go to local charities, no big fat bonus and it's honest. It's a comunity Bank.
"WE NEED ONE LIKE IT IN EVERY CITY"
I certainly wouldn't use his bank..."
And he is absolutely no threat to the major banks....so 'bricking it'?...I doubt that very much |
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"Only because they were told they had to, by the government. They wanted it brought in under the guise of security (no wage snatches). But all it did was put billions into the banks overnight. And all organised by the banks best friend - Thatcher!"
No....because it's infinitely more efficient and cheaper for large companies to use a payroll scheme that pays wages into banks....it's 2013 not 1963 |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"The banks are bricking it, Because of "Bank on Dave" in burnly, who pays 5% interest on savings, which is risk free, and he lends to local busneses, the profits go to local charities, no big fat bonus and it's honest. It's a comunity Bank.
"WE NEED ONE LIKE IT IN EVERY CITY"
I certainly wouldn't use his bank...
And he is absolutely no threat to the major banks....so 'bricking it'?...I doubt that very much"
Dave is just a 'little local difficulty'.
Should he become a threat, the banks will stomp on him from a great height. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"Only because they were told they had to, by the government. They wanted it brought in under the guise of security (no wage snatches). But all it did was put billions into the banks overnight. And all organised by the banks best friend - Thatcher!
No....because it's infinitely more efficient and cheaper for large companies to use a payroll scheme that pays wages into banks....it's 2013 not 1963"
Worth remembering the day (after) Bruce Reynolds died. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I doubt Bank on Dave is remotely on the radar for the banks.
But I think there's a lot to be said for the principle of encouraging that kind of approach. Local bosses, running local businesses of all types.
We need to move beyond the 'greed is good' and 'might is right' mentality. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Only because they were told they had to, by the government. They wanted it brought in under the guise of security (no wage snatches). But all it did was put billions into the banks overnight. And all organised by the banks best friend - Thatcher!
No....because it's infinitely more efficient and cheaper for large companies to use a payroll scheme that pays wages into banks....it's 2013 not 1963"
Why should I be forced into opening a bank account? I should be entitled to be payed in cash. Shops are happy to accept cash, not all fiscal exchanges have to be electronic and done via a bank. The only people it has benefited is the banks. |
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By *icky55Man
over a year ago
Warm an cosy cave. Brist |
"The banks are bricking it, Because of "Bank on Dave" in burnly, who pays 5% interest on savings, which is risk free, and he lends to local busneses, the profits go to local charities, no big fat bonus and it's honest. It's a comunity Bank.
"WE NEED ONE LIKE IT IN EVERY CITY"
I certainly wouldn't use his bank...
And he is absolutely no threat to the major banks....so 'bricking it'?...I doubt that very much
Dave is just a 'little local difficulty'.
Should he become a threat, the banks will stomp on him from a great height."
People in his area are queing to taking savings out of the big banks and into his. If there were more banks like his people and comunities like councels and schools won't lose thier savings.
I hate the idea that i get a piddeling interest rate from the bank, and banks bosses walk of with millions after the goverment bailed them out.  |
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"Only because they were told they had to, by the government. They wanted it brought in under the guise of security (no wage snatches). But all it did was put billions into the banks overnight. And all organised by the banks best friend - Thatcher!
No....because it's infinitely more efficient and cheaper for large companies to use a payroll scheme that pays wages into banks....it's 2013 not 1963
Why should I be forced into opening a bank account? I should be entitled to be payed in cash. Shops are happy to accept cash, not all fiscal exchanges have to be electronic and done via a bank. The only people it has benefited is the banks. "
Your employer is not compelled to pay you your wages in cash, neither should they be.
They run their business in a way that makes it as cost effective as possible, adding more layers of administration onto a business simply to appease those that want to be paid in cash would be a nonsense for a company that wishes to remain competative and profitable. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"................
The disparity between rich and poor is something like 28% in the USA and 25% here, the top two OECD positions. Belgium has a disparity of 4%. They're part of the capitalist west.
Eh? Where did that 'statistic' come from?
OECD figures, from memory mind but that's where I got them originally.
That's OK. Take overnight. Check it out."
It would have to be tomorrow - I don't have access to the OECD stats away from the office. It might be on the free bit but I'm doing Eastleigh right now. |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"
Should he become a threat, the banks will stomp on him from a great height.
People in his area are queing to taking savings out of the big banks and into his. If there were more banks like his people and comunities like councels and schools won't lose thier savings.
I hate the idea that i get a piddeling interest rate from the bank, and banks bosses walk of with millions after the goverment bailed them out. "
Bank of Dave is no safer than any other bank.
What people forget is that, the weekend the banks neraly went tits-up, had Brown/ Darling not only intervened using public - not government - money, the drink dispense machines on the walls across the country would have been switched off.
Folks heading for work wouldn't have been able to buy petrol.
Those with empty fridges wouldn't have been able to buy bread, cheese or milk.
Those whose roof or car loan or lekky bill depended on electronic transfer.
All would have been well and truly ****ed.
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"................
The disparity between rich and poor is something like 28% in the USA and 25% here, the top two OECD positions. Belgium has a disparity of 4%. They're part of the capitalist west.
Eh? Where did that 'statistic' come from?
OECD figures, from memory mind but that's where I got them originally.
That's OK. Take overnight. Check it out.
It would have to be tomorrow - I don't have access to the OECD stats away from the office. It might be on the free bit but I'm doing Eastleigh right now."
That's OK. Tomorrow or the next day.......... or the day after.
 |
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"
Should he become a threat, the banks will stomp on him from a great height.
People in his area are queing to taking savings out of the big banks and into his. If there were more banks like his people and comunities like councels and schools won't lose thier savings.
I hate the idea that i get a piddeling interest rate from the bank, and banks bosses walk of with millions after the goverment bailed them out.
Bank of Dave is no safer than any other bank.
What people forget is that, the weekend the banks neraly went tits-up, had Brown/ Darling not only intervened using public - not government - money, the drink dispense machines on the walls across the country would have been switched off.
Folks heading for work wouldn't have been able to buy petrol.
Those with empty fridges wouldn't have been able to buy bread, cheese or milk.
Those whose roof or car loan or lekky bill depended on electronic transfer.
All would have been well and truly ****ed.
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Therein lies the problem.....many people on here haven't the slightest idea what effect a bank crash would have had on their everyday lives, ignorance is bliss! |
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By *nnyMan
over a year ago
Glasgow |
"
Therein lies the problem.....many people on here haven't the slightest idea what effect a bank crash would have had on their everyday lives, ignorance is bliss!"
Nor how close to financial disaster they came.
If they but knew what nearly befell them, the notion of Les Miserables manning the barricades would be commonplace. |
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