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The male gaze...discuss
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an “object” of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being “framed” by male desire."
Originally a film theory, but can be applied to how women dress, advertising and.....FAB?
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"We are all an object of desire until the male gaze becomes the male glaze and we are nothing more than a post-nut after thought."
I saw "glazed...donut" then. 
I really think the film theorists missed a trick - "male glaze" is a classic.  |
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""In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an “object” of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being “framed” by male desire."
Originally a film theory, but can be applied to how women dress, advertising and.....FAB?
"
Maybe, Yes, No
We have moved a long way in terms of women's autonomy in terms of dress choice - much more choice as a counterpoint there is the whole question of hijabi type dressing either the complete no objectification or the very worst objectification depending on your viewpoint.
Advertising is the very last bastion of sex sells objectification.
On Fab women have so much control. They decide which images the post and project of themselves. There is a complete range from the artistic, through the devine to the grim, but ultimately the woman's choice. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
""In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an “object” of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being “framed” by male desire."
Originally a film theory, but can be applied to how women dress, advertising and.....FAB?
Maybe, Yes, No
We have moved a long way in terms of women's autonomy in terms of dress choice - much more choice as a counterpoint there is the whole question of hijabi type dressing either the complete no objectification or the very worst objectification depending on your viewpoint.
Advertising is the very last bastion of sex sells objectification.
On Fab women have so much control. They decide which images the post and project of themselves. There is a complete range from the artistic, through the devine to the grim, but ultimately the woman's choice. "
As it should be, no? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Is there not a parallel theory about how the gaze is perceived linked to how the gazer is perceived by the gazee?
In other words if they are attractive their gaze is less intrusive or unwelcome? "
A parallel film theory or (presumably) something else? I don't know but I will look. I think the point of the theory was that the patriarchy is so embedded in our media that we barely notice that it's all designed for the male gaze. But I'm never great on theoretical ideas to be fair. |
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""In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an “object” of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being “framed” by male desire."
Originally a film theory, but can be applied to how women dress, advertising and.....FAB?
Maybe, Yes, No
We have moved a long way in terms of women's autonomy in terms of dress choice - much more choice as a counterpoint there is the whole question of hijabi type dressing either the complete no objectification or the very worst objectification depending on your viewpoint.
Advertising is the very last bastion of sex sells objectification.
On Fab women have so much control. They decide which images the post and project of themselves. There is a complete range from the artistic, through the devine to the grim, but ultimately the woman's choice.
As it should be, no?"
Yep. And as such, a discussion centred around the female gaze would be interesting to read Xx |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
""In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an “object” of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being “framed” by male desire."
Originally a film theory, but can be applied to how women dress, advertising and.....FAB?
Maybe, Yes, No
We have moved a long way in terms of women's autonomy in terms of dress choice - much more choice as a counterpoint there is the whole question of hijabi type dressing either the complete no objectification or the very worst objectification depending on your viewpoint.
Advertising is the very last bastion of sex sells objectification.
On Fab women have so much control. They decide which images the post and project of themselves. There is a complete range from the artistic, through the devine to the grim, but ultimately the woman's choice.
As it should be, no?
Yep. And as such, a discussion centred around the female gaze would be interesting to read Xx"
Remember when the Full Monty came out |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
""In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an “object” of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being “framed” by male desire."
Originally a film theory, but can be applied to how women dress, advertising and.....FAB?
Maybe, Yes, No
We have moved a long way in terms of women's autonomy in terms of dress choice - much more choice as a counterpoint there is the whole question of hijabi type dressing either the complete no objectification or the very worst objectification depending on your viewpoint.
Advertising is the very last bastion of sex sells objectification.
On Fab women have so much control. They decide which images the post and project of themselves. There is a complete range from the artistic, through the devine to the grim, but ultimately the woman's choice. "
I don't think "built for the male gaze" means women have no choice does it? It implies the default is to benefit hetero men. |
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""In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an “object” of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being “framed” by male desire."
Originally a film theory, but can be applied to how women dress, advertising and.....FAB?
Maybe, Yes, No
We have moved a long way in terms of women's autonomy in terms of dress choice - much more choice as a counterpoint there is the whole question of hijabi type dressing either the complete no objectification or the very worst objectification depending on your viewpoint.
Advertising is the very last bastion of sex sells objectification.
On Fab women have so much control. They decide which images the post and project of themselves. There is a complete range from the artistic, through the devine to the grim, but ultimately the woman's choice.
As it should be, no?"
Absolutely, as it should be. One of the joys of Fab is the space it gives women to be their own sexy. |
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""In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an “object” of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being “framed” by male desire."
Originally a film theory, but can be applied to how women dress, advertising and.....FAB?
Maybe, Yes, No
We have moved a long way in terms of women's autonomy in terms of dress choice - much more choice as a counterpoint there is the whole question of hijabi type dressing either the complete no objectification or the very worst objectification depending on your viewpoint.
Advertising is the very last bastion of sex sells objectification.
On Fab women have so much control. They decide which images the post and project of themselves. There is a complete range from the artistic, through the devine to the grim, but ultimately the woman's choice.
I don't think "built for the male gaze" means women have no choice does it? It implies the default is to benefit hetero men. "
Women certainly have choice, the point I am making is in many ways women are free of that historical default if they choose. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"What’s your point?
Nice tits.
I don't have one, and it would seem neither do you
That’s not very accurate.
I complimented your tits which itself gives my post a point."
"Nice hint of cleavage" now that would have been accurate... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
""In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an “object” of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being “framed” by male desire."
Originally a film theory, but can be applied to how women dress, advertising and.....FAB?
Maybe, Yes, No
We have moved a long way in terms of women's autonomy in terms of dress choice - much more choice as a counterpoint there is the whole question of hijabi type dressing either the complete no objectification or the very worst objectification depending on your viewpoint.
Advertising is the very last bastion of sex sells objectification.
On Fab women have so much control. They decide which images the post and project of themselves. There is a complete range from the artistic, through the devine to the grim, but ultimately the woman's choice.
I don't think "built for the male gaze" means women have no choice does it? It implies the default is to benefit hetero men.
Women certainly have choice, the point I am making is in many ways women are free of that historical default if they choose. "
But do they choose that here, or is the male gaze so prevalent that women default to what will satisfy the male gaze. "Fab if you'd like to lick it", stockings and garters etc. |
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"...
Women certainly have choice, the point I am making is in many ways women are free of that historical default if they choose.
But do they choose that here, or is the male gaze so prevalent that women default to what will satisfy the male gaze. "Fab if you'd like to lick it", stockings and garters etc. "
I don't think I can answer that - one for the other ladies. |
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The thing is … our entire culture has been shaped and moulded to satisfy/please the male gaze. To avoid it, to deny its influence, would be ridiculous. Even something like Erica Lust’s female-driven porn is still being created by and for women whose entire worldview has been shaped since childhood by that male-gaze-driven society. It’s just the world we exist in and I think it’s unavoidable. So the trick must be to stay aware of it. To be congnisant, not oblivious. |
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I think women are equal in the almost-biological system of patriarchy (which in and of itself means very little to me), they can completely vouch for it, thrive off it and can even get to the very top of the tree.
What was (is) interesting about Greer's 'male gaze' is that it attempted to explain the workings of male chauvinism and got down to the nitty gritty. She's a real star of Feminism and the fight for female equality imo. pt |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The thing is … our entire culture has been shaped and moulded to satisfy/please the male gaze. To avoid it, to deny its influence, would be ridiculous. Even something like Erica Lust’s female-driven porn is still being created by and for women whose entire worldview has been shaped since childhood by that male-gaze-driven society. It’s just the world we exist in and I think it’s unavoidable. So the trick must be to stay aware of it. To be congnisant, not oblivious."
I do agree, but RTG do you not think that this worldview is quite often vilified in the forums? Because it accepts that the patriarchy exists, and many don't. |
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"What’s your point?
Nice tits.
I don't have one, and it would seem neither do you
That’s not very accurate.
I complimented your tits which itself gives my post a point.
"Nice hint of cleavage" now that would have been accurate..."
You can’t dictate a bloody compliment lady!!!
Jeez… chicks get more demanding by the day here.
I’m glad I can normally appreciate the photographic merits from a safe distance.
|
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"What’s your point?
Nice tits.
I don't have one, and it would seem neither do you
That’s not very accurate.
I complimented your tits which itself gives my post a point.
"Nice hint of cleavage" now that would have been accurate...
You can’t dictate a bloody compliment lady!!!
Jeez… chicks get more demanding by the day here.
I’m glad I can normally appreciate the photographic merits from a safe distance.
"
I was being pedantic, not dictatorial. I mean, I can do that too, but only on Thursdays. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I think women are equal in the almost-biological system of patriarchy (which in and of itself means very little to me), they can completely vouch for it, thrive off it and can even get to the very top of the tree.
pt"
Women are equal within patriarchy? I'm at a loss how you can make that assertion. |
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"What’s your point?
Nice tits.
I don't have one, and it would seem neither do you
That’s not very accurate.
I complimented your tits which itself gives my post a point.
"Nice hint of cleavage" now that would have been accurate...
You can’t dictate a bloody compliment lady!!!
Jeez… chicks get more demanding by the day here.
I’m glad I can normally appreciate the photographic merits from a safe distance.
I was being pedantic, not dictatorial. I mean, I can do that too, but only on Thursdays. "
You’ve ruined my wank now!
Dictating chicks in monochrome are my kink. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"What’s your point?
Nice tits.
I don't have one, and it would seem neither do you
That’s not very accurate.
I complimented your tits which itself gives my post a point.
"Nice hint of cleavage" now that would have been accurate...
You can’t dictate a bloody compliment lady!!!
Jeez… chicks get more demanding by the day here.
I’m glad I can normally appreciate the photographic merits from a safe distance.
I was being pedantic, not dictatorial. I mean, I can do that too, but only on Thursdays.
You’ve ruined my wank now!
Dictating chicks in monochrome are my kink."
Oh damn. I mean I hate to ruin a...oh wait. |
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"I do agree, but RTG do you not think that this worldview is quite often vilified in the forums? Because it accepts that the patriarchy exists, and many don't. "
If anyone is trying deny the patriarchy exists, they’re just plain dumb. I can’t help there. That’s a belief system beyond rational argument.
(And I’m now really annoyed at myself for misspelling ‘cognisant’ up there. Bloody typos.) |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I do agree, but RTG do you not think that this worldview is quite often vilified in the forums? Because it accepts that the patriarchy exists, and many don't.
If anyone is trying deny the patriarchy exists, they’re just plain dumb. I can’t help there. That’s a belief system beyond rational argument.
(And I’m now really annoyed at myself for misspelling ‘cognisant’ up there. Bloody typos.)"
Can I tag you next time someone says the patriarchy doesn't exist and you can call them dumb? |
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By *otSoPoshWoman
over a year ago
In a ball gown because that's how we roll in N. Devon |
One reason it's true is that men are often more visually driven (on the whole, not all men, etc), so visuals will usually be aimed at the male gaze. And women who like men... like men. So they'll do things to attract men. Like make themselves as visually appealing as possible (on the whole, not all women, etc). Advertisers etc use that as well, because most of their advertising is visual. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"One reason it's true is that men are often more visually driven (on the whole, not all men, etc), so visuals will usually be aimed at the male gaze. And women who like men... like men. So they'll do things to attract men. Like make themselves as visually appealing as possible (on the whole, not all women, etc). Advertisers etc use that as well, because most of their advertising is visual."
Why does visually appealing need to equal objectification of women though? Hmm |
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By *otSoPoshWoman
over a year ago
In a ball gown because that's how we roll in N. Devon |
"One reason it's true is that men are often more visually driven (on the whole, not all men, etc), so visuals will usually be aimed at the male gaze. And women who like men... like men. So they'll do things to attract men. Like make themselves as visually appealing as possible (on the whole, not all women, etc). Advertisers etc use that as well, because most of their advertising is visual.
Why does visually appealing need to equal objectification of women though? Hmm"
It doesn't need to, but sex sells, and the idea of sex sells. Sex will always sell. Them's the breaks.
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"I think it definitely can be applied here.
Who's benefit is lingerie for?"
I wear it because I like how it makes me look and feel. Same for when I do my hair and put make up on. I don't really take men's views into consideration. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"One reason it's true is that men are often more visually driven (on the whole, not all men, etc), so visuals will usually be aimed at the male gaze. And women who like men... like men. So they'll do things to attract men. Like make themselves as visually appealing as possible (on the whole, not all women, etc). Advertisers etc use that as well, because most of their advertising is visual.
Why does visually appealing need to equal objectification of women though? Hmm
It doesn't need to, but sex sells, and the idea of sex sells. Sex will always sell. Them's the breaks.
"
Who does sex overwhelmingly sell to? |
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"I think women are equal in the almost-biological system of patriarchy (which in and of itself means very little to me), they can completely vouch for it, thrive off it and can even get to the very top of the tree.
pt
Women are equal within patriarchy? I'm at a loss how you can make that assertion. "
.
Ok but Sally, you completely removed my whole (and pretty short no less) second paragraph, where I mentioned female in-equality, male chauvinism, feminism and the importance of Greer herself - then you lifted 'pt' to just below my first paragraph!
You don't care much about how I look do you! And surely you can see how the two paragraph's connect?
I didn't say my usual amount because although I have a right here to contribute in something that has always quite-profoundly interested me, I need to discuss this properly (eg with my text intact) not in a combative kind of way. But it's such an emotive subject though - I just hoped my second paragraph would explain how Greer could see that the devil is in the details!
Patriarchy itself is just a pack structure we inherited before we could speak. The word is generally used in its pejorative (ie negative) form because...
a) a lot of people simply don't need it's basic definition any more, and
b) when people effectively enforce a patriarchal structure on people in any calculated or unnecessary way, inequality obviously happens.
pt |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I think women are equal in the almost-biological system of patriarchy (which in and of itself means very little to me), they can completely vouch for it, thrive off it and can even get to the very top of the tree.
pt
Women are equal within patriarchy? I'm at a loss how you can make that assertion.
.
Ok but Sally, you completely removed my whole (and pretty short no less) second paragraph, where I mentioned female in-equality, male chauvinism, feminism and the importance of Greer herself - then you lifted 'pt' to just below my first paragraph!
You don't care much about how I look do you! And surely you can see how the two paragraph's connect?
I didn't say my usual amount because although I have a right here to contribute in something that has always quite-profoundly interested me, I need to discuss this properly (eg with my text intact) not in a combative kind of way. But it's such an emotive subject though - I just hoped my second paragraph would explain how Greer could see that the devil is in the details!
Patriarchy itself is just a pack structure we inherited before we could speak. The word is generally used in its pejorative (ie negative) form because...
a) a lot of people simply don't need it's basic definition any more, and
b) when people effectively enforce a patriarchal structure on people in any calculated or unnecessary way, inequality obviously happens.
pt"
I was replying to your statement in the first paragraph. No, I didn't see how your second para linked? Although I too am a Greer fan. It wasn't done for any other reason than keep the amount of text down for people to follow. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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" think women are equal in the almost-biological system of patriarchy (which in and of itself means very little to me), they can completely vouch for it, thrive off it and can even get to the very top of the tree.
What was (is) interesting about Greer's 'male gaze' is that it attempted to explain the workings of male chauvinism and got down to the nitty gritty. She's a real star of Feminism and the fight for female equality imo. pt
Women are equal within patriarchy? I'm at a loss how you can make that assertion.
.
Ok but Sally, you completely removed my whole (and pretty short no less) second paragraph, where I mentioned female in-equality, male chauvinism, feminism and the importance of Greer herself - then you lifted 'pt' to just below my first paragraph!
You don't care much about how I look do you! And surely you can see how the two paragraph's connect?
I didn't say my usual amount because although I have a right here to contribute in something that has always quite-profoundly interested me, I need to discuss this properly (eg with my text intact) not in a combative kind of way. But it's such an emotive subject though - I just hoped my second paragraph would explain how Greer could see that the devil is in the details!
Patriarchy itself is just a pack structure we inherited before we could speak. The word is generally used in its pejorative (ie negative) form because...
a) a lot of people simply don't need it's basic definition any more, and
b) when people effectively enforce a patriarchal structure on people in any calculated or unnecessary way, inequality obviously happens.
pt"
Text returned.  |
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"I think it definitely can be applied here.
Who's benefit is lingerie for?
I wear it because I like how it makes me look and feel. Same for when I do my hair and put make up on. I don't really take men's views into consideration. "
I think that's a lie we tell ourselves to avoid the uncomfortable truth |
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"I was replying to your statement in the first paragraph. No, I didn't see how your second para linked? Although I too am a Greer fan. It wasn't done for any other reason than keep the amount of text down for people to follow. "
.
I didn't explain the distinction I needed very well first time around (ie in the 2nd para), but hopefully my second attempt was better..
I probably shouldn't have started my first effort with the paragraph on patriarchy, but that's me trying to be brief. It might make more sense read from the bottom up lol. All I wanted to do actually was give a thumbs up to Greer pt
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"I think it definitely can be applied here.
Who's benefit is lingerie for?
I wear it because I like how it makes me look and feel. Same for when I do my hair and put make up on. I don't really take men's views into consideration.
I think that's a lie we tell ourselves to avoid the uncomfortable truth "
Not really, I've always bought nice underwear to make me feel good, I like how it looks and feels... I was celibate for 3 years, not a man in sight... Still wore the undies!
|
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"I think women are equal in the almost-biological system of patriarchy (which in and of itself means very little to me), they can completely vouch for it, thrive off it and can even get to the very top of the tree.
pt
Women are equal within patriarchy? I'm at a loss how you can make that assertion.
.
Ok but Sally, you completely removed my whole (and pretty short no less) second paragraph, where I mentioned female in-equality, male chauvinism, feminism and the importance of Greer herself - then you lifted 'pt' to just below my first paragraph!
You don't care much about how I look do you! And surely you can see how the two paragraph's connect?
I didn't say my usual amount because although I have a right here to contribute in something that has always quite-profoundly interested me, I need to discuss this properly (eg with my text intact) not in a combative kind of way. But it's such an emotive subject though - I just hoped my second paragraph would explain how Greer could see that the devil is in the details!
Patriarchy itself is just a pack structure we inherited before we could speak. The word is generally used in its pejorative (ie negative) form because...
a) a lot of people simply don't need it's basic definition any more, and
b) when people effectively enforce a patriarchal structure on people in any calculated or unnecessary way, inequality obviously happens.
pt"
Won't work Tugger
Go back to the drawing board |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I think it definitely can be applied here.
Who's benefit is lingerie for?
I wear it because I like how it makes me look and feel. Same for when I do my hair and put make up on. I don't really take men's views into consideration.
I think that's a lie we tell ourselves to avoid the uncomfortable truth
Not really, I've always bought nice underwear to make me feel good, I like how it looks and feels... I was celibate for 3 years, not a man in sight... Still wore the undies!
"
I had a little browse about lingerie earlier. It seems that it's only in the last decade that lingerie started being marketed for women. There was quite a shift away from catering for the male gaze. I thought that was quite interesting and I have noticed a much bigger variety of lingerie in recent years. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Tom thinks it was Oscar Wilde who once said...
There is only one thing worse than being gazed at and that's not being gazed at"
Not a shock that a bloke said it... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Highbrow but very relevant - didn't think I'd see a discussion of post structuralist theory here! "
Tbh I didn't know it was post structuralist theory.  |
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"Is there not a parallel theory about how the gaze is perceived linked to how the gazer is perceived by the gazee?
In other words if they are attractive their gaze is less intrusive or unwelcome? "
Someone can be easy on the eyes and still behave like a creep. |
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""In the male gaze, woman is visually positioned as an “object” of heterosexual male desire. Her feelings, thoughts and her own sexual drives are less important than her being “framed” by male desire."
Originally a film theory, but can be applied to how women dress, advertising and.....FAB?
Maybe, Yes, No
We have moved a long way in terms of women's autonomy in terms of dress choice - much more choice as a counterpoint there is the whole question of hijabi type dressing either the complete no objectification or the very worst objectification depending on your viewpoint.
Advertising is the very last bastion of sex sells objectification.
On Fab women have so much control. They decide which images the post and project of themselves. There is a complete range from the artistic, through the devine to the grim, but ultimately the woman's choice.
I don't think "built for the male gaze" means women have no choice does it? It implies the default is to benefit hetero men.
Women certainly have choice, the point I am making is in many ways women are free of that historical default if they choose.
But do they choose that here, or is the male gaze so prevalent that women default to what will satisfy the male gaze. "Fab if you'd like to lick it", stockings and garters etc. "
I don’t think any situation in the world is immune to this. |
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pt
