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Ageist ?
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When you take a package holiday everything is done via text, email or the app. Directions to your transfer, information about trips, problems while away...all by phone, text or email.
That's fine for us as is internet banking etc. but what about the eldery who have no idea how to use an iPhone or Android, don't have access to the net and struggle with modern tech? They seem to be increasingly excluded from things that were once pretty straightforward to navigate.
Is this ageist or just the march of progress? Grayson Perry mentioned it on tracks if my years a week or so ago. |
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Sadly, I'm just going for 'it's unfortunate' I don't think we can alter the course or speed of technological advances until the most elderly of us pop our clogs...
I think it's too much for each dept of every institution or business to keep open a form of communication that is used by by far a small minority of the population.
On a small scale I have a friend that won't put whats app on her phone... I say ...That's okay , no worries but in reality when I have to message her separately from the rest of the group and relay her answers to the rest of the group when we are all deciding what to do I am effing cursing under my breath. Her reluctance to move on doubles the work I do and the time I use to do it in and all for one person.
PLUS - How many of us who don't like e mails , want to go back to buying stamps and walking to the post box or worse still contacting Pony Express or sending smoke signals.....
Those that leave themselves behind , leave themselves behind in my book. I will be there soon as I am not touching most of the social medias and marketing apps......
I'm not quite for a firing line for oldie non techies yet tho |
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Was having a discussion with our Tesco delivery driver on Sunday.
Now they do a minimum of £50.
For a delivery.
What about elderly people who live alone and can't get out but don't spend £50 on shopping.
Elderly in this country are now treated like second class citizens who are a burden.
It's not right |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
Are there local travel companies still that will print things out? They’re probably really expensive, but surely they exist still ?
If someone is unable to use the Internet then are they capable of planning, booking and going on a holiday by themselves with all the stress of travel etc. We do everything for our mum like that although it’s rare she wants to go away anymore |
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"When you take a package holiday everything is done via text, email or the app. Directions to your transfer, information about trips, problems while away...all by phone, text or email.
That's fine for us as is internet banking etc. but what about the eldery who have no idea how to use an iPhone or Android, don't have access to the net and struggle with modern tech? They seem to be increasingly excluded from things that were once pretty straightforward to navigate.
Is this ageist or just the march of progress? Grayson Perry mentioned it on tracks if my years a week or so ago."
I personally think it is appalling as many elderly people are excluded then, especially if they don't have anyone to help. I kmow a lot of people with no mobile phones or internet and some have no credit or debit cards, just their building society book to get their cash out as and when. That is why it upsets me when people don't care for example if cash disappears or when some businesses only accept card payments. Yes I like a lot of the progress and the convenience and can often see the need for it but I am also not selfish to think 'I am alright Jack' and never mind about anyone else.  |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"Sadly, I'm just going for 'it's unfortunate' I don't think we can alter the course or speed of technological advances until the most elderly of us pop our clogs...
I think it's too much for each dept of every institution or business to keep open a form of communication that is used by by far a small minority of the population.
On a small scale I have a friend that won't put whats app on her phone... I say ...That's okay , no worries but in reality when I have to message her separately from the rest of the group and relay her answers to the rest of the group when we are all deciding what to do I am effing cursing under my breath. Her reluctance to move on doubles the work I do and the time I use to do it in and all for one person.
PLUS - How many of us who don't like e mails , want to go back to buying stamps and walking to the post box or worse still contacting Pony Express or sending smoke signals.....
Those that leave themselves behind , leave themselves behind in my book. I will be there soon as I am not touching most of the social medias and marketing apps......
I'm not quite for a firing line for oldie non techies yet tho "
But your approach is fine because 35% of people are late adopters and they have the best experience of tech ever , the 35% early adopters spend way too high for little benefits, the innovator 15% are just mental and it’s the 15% laggards that suffer most , we need to shift them into the late adopter category that’s all and for most old people it’s possible but friends and family generally k don’t have the skills to do it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Clearly the sort of companies you are talking about aren’t excluding anyone by age. It’s just their decision as to how they run their business. So no it obviously isn’t ageist. |
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Progress waits for noone.
If the majority are moving forward, does it really make sense to keep costly options open for the minority? I don't know.
What I do know though is that libraries and job centers all have computers with people available to help. Banks etc also have people willing to show others how to use apps. There are lots of courses available to learn how to use the Internet etc and cheap, refurbished laptops or smart phones can be brought from a multitude of places often with staff also willing to show you the basics.
If we wait for the super oldies to go before we move forward, are we putting a date on that? Have we decided what age is best to move forward and will wait for the last one to go then the next day, flip the switch if you like?
Honestly I don't have a solution, I also have little patience with people as I'm quite anti-social so I'm maybe not the best person to comment  |
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Thanks for all your comments.
What prompted me to write this was the experience my dad's having. I accept that at 96 he's in a minority group but he lives in a town where almost every bank has closed including the one he's used for over 70 years. He can use the net for emails, to chat with family abroad via messenger and for basic banking such as checking his balance. The bank showed him how to use the net and the app but he's partially sighted and his hands don't work so well also he's terrified of scams and 'pressing the wrong button '. I know he's a dying breed, quite literally but he's feeling increasingly, as are many of his friends in their 80s that access to things like their money, repeat prescriptions etc is moving out of their reach.
Of course we do all those things for him but imagine how it feels to have to ask your kids to do things like that. Independence and pride is very important I think.
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"Progress waits for noone.
If the majority are moving forward, does it really make sense to keep costly options open for the minority? I don't know.
What I do know though is that libraries and job centers all have computers with people available to help. Banks etc also have people willing to show others how to use apps. There are lots of courses available to learn how to use the Internet etc and cheap, refurbished laptops or smart phones can be brought from a multitude of places often with staff also willing to show you the basics.
If we wait for the super oldies to go before we move forward, are we putting a date on that? Have we decided what age is best to move forward and will wait for the last one to go then the next day, flip the switch if you like?
Honestly I don't have a solution, I also have little patience with people as I'm quite anti-social so I'm maybe not the best person to comment "
I think you overestimate the availability of help, the opening times of libraries (that remain open at all), the number of banks with branches that remain open and the ability of people to get to these places. |
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"Was having a discussion with our Tesco delivery driver on Sunday.
Now they do a minimum of £50.
For a delivery.
What about elderly people who live alone and can't get out but don't spend £50 on shopping.
Elderly in this country are now treated like second class citizens who are a burden.
It's not right "
I agree with you. |
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By *arkus1812Man
over a year ago
Lifes departure lounge NN9 Northamptonshire East not West MidlandsMidlands |
I suppose that as one of Fabs older members I should comment on this thread,but in all honestly I cannot be bothered, I admit I am a complete Luddite when it comes to technology.
And yes we are second class citizens.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It's very ageist. Hospitals sending a text message to an elderly person, giving a link where they can go to download their appointment letter.
Elderly person has a simple phone, can't really use text messages, has no idea whatsoever what the 'link' is. 
Yes I mean me! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I suppose that as one of Fabs older members I should comment on this thread,but in all honestly I cannot be bothered, I admit I am a complete Luddite when it comes to technology.
And yes we are second class citizens. "
You're online though, which is much more than some people can do. X |
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"When you take a package holiday everything is done via text, email or the app. Directions to your transfer, information about trips, problems while away...all by phone, text or email.
That's fine for us as is internet banking etc. but what about the eldery who have no idea how to use an iPhone or Android, don't have access to the net and struggle with modern tech? They seem to be increasingly excluded from things that were once pretty straightforward to navigate.
Is this ageist or just the march of progress? Grayson Perry mentioned it on tracks if my years a week or so ago."
Isn’t it a bit ageist to assume most elderly can’t use tech? My mum is almost 80 and is fine doing most things. I think in the main most people taking package holidays are still relatively young (not 90 on a care home) and capable with tech. Most of the modern tech has been around 20 years or so in some form. |
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"I suppose that as one of Fabs older members I should comment on this thread,but in all honestly I cannot be bothered, I admit I am a complete Luddite when it comes to technology.
And yes we are second class citizens. "
You definately should not be and neither should be so many other elderly people of people with conditions that makes it difficult for them. I don't buy the argument that there is support. We should be making the life if the elderly andcothers in need comfortable and not expect them to adoot the practices we find easy ourselves. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It is ageist yes!
In my community there is a programme to ensure that older people are not left behind when it comes to having an online presence, as let's face it, that is where everything is heading whether we want it to or not.
Digital inclusion training should be offered to all age groups but especially the older generation |
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"Are there local travel companies still that will print things out? They’re probably really expensive, but surely they exist still ?
If someone is unable to use the Internet then are they capable of planning, booking and going on a holiday by themselves with all the stress of travel etc. We do everything for our mum like that although it’s rare she wants to go away anymore "
You get charged extra if you want to use paper passes with some airlines. |
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Did the Victorian parents struggle to get to grips with the installation of the home telephone? Of their first electric lighting at home? Of how to operate a gramophone? Probably.
I think this is exactly the same, just in the modern era. Things change, develop and move on and people have to try and adapt as it goes along. There's much modern tech I opt out of because I don't want it, but it might be "forced" on me in the future when it becomes embedded or standard practice. |
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By *arkus1812Man
over a year ago
Lifes departure lounge NN9 Northamptonshire East not West MidlandsMidlands |
"I suppose that as one of Fabs older members I should comment on this thread,but in all honestly I cannot be bothered, I admit I am a complete Luddite when it comes to technology.
And yes we are second class citizens.
You're online though, which is much more than some people can do. X"
Not through choice I can assure you, it was a needs must. |
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"When you take a package holiday everything is done via text, email or the app. Directions to your transfer, information about trips, problems while away...all by phone, text or email.
That's fine for us as is internet banking etc. but what about the eldery who have no idea how to use an iPhone or Android, don't have access to the net and struggle with modern tech? They seem to be increasingly excluded from things that were once pretty straightforward to navigate.
Is this ageist or just the march of progress? Grayson Perry mentioned it on tracks if my years a week or so ago.
Isn’t it a bit ageist to assume most elderly can’t use tech? My mum is almost 80 and is fine doing most things. I think in the main most people taking package holidays are still relatively young (not 90 on a care home) and capable with tech. Most of the modern tech has been around 20 years or so in some form. "
Possibly it is ageist but my unscientific observation is that many people of 85 and over struggle with modern tech and feel increasingly excluded from things they were previously able to do quite easily. |
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"When you take a package holiday everything is done via text, email or the app. Directions to your transfer, information about trips, problems while away...all by phone, text or email.
That's fine for us as is internet banking etc. but what about the eldery who have no idea how to use an iPhone or Android, don't have access to the net and struggle with modern tech? They seem to be increasingly excluded from things that were once pretty straightforward to navigate.
Is this ageist or just the march of progress? Grayson Perry mentioned it on tracks if my years a week or so ago.
Isn’t it a bit ageist to assume most elderly can’t use tech? My mum is almost 80 and is fine doing most things. I think in the main most people taking package holidays are still relatively young (not 90 on a care home) and capable with tech. Most of the modern tech has been around 20 years or so in some form.
Possibly it is ageist but my unscientific observation is that many people of 85 and over struggle with modern tech and feel increasingly excluded from things they were previously able to do quite easily. "
There do need to be non-digital ways to deal with key issues like banking, health etc because tech breaks. It isn't always working and so all of us need the backup option of an actual human to help us. Not an online bank or a machine. |
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"Did the Victorian parents struggle to get to grips with the installation of the home telephone? Of their first electric lighting at home? Of how to operate a gramophone? Probably.
I think this is exactly the same, just in the modern era. Things change, develop and move on and people have to try and adapt as it goes along. There's much modern tech I opt out of because I don't want it, but it might be "forced" on me in the future when it becomes embedded or standard practice."
My mum didn't live in a house with electricity until she was 12, her mum was frightened of it.
I get it, I really do, time and tide wait for no man etc but there's an astonishing lack of empathy for the old 'uns who feel left behind. I suppose it was ever thus |
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"Progress waits for noone.
If the majority are moving forward, does it really make sense to keep costly options open for the minority? I don't know.
What I do know though is that libraries and job centers all have computers with people available to help. Banks etc also have people willing to show others how to use apps. There are lots of courses available to learn how to use the Internet etc and cheap, refurbished laptops or smart phones can be brought from a multitude of places often with staff also willing to show you the basics.
If we wait for the super oldies to go before we move forward, are we putting a date on that? Have we decided what age is best to move forward and will wait for the last one to go then the next day, flip the switch if you like?
Honestly I don't have a solution, I also have little patience with people as I'm quite anti-social so I'm maybe not the best person to comment
I think you overestimate the availability of help, the opening times of libraries (that remain open at all), the number of banks with branches that remain open and the ability of people to get to these places. "
Perhaps I do, I should imagine living where I do is also a factor. I spend most of my day sign posting people to help, giving information of where to go, mostly older people who are struggling greatly with a world they've opted not to keep up with. And sorry, but to an extent, I do believe they chose that as the change has been coming for 30 odd years now, not all ofcourse... many struggle but we can't ignore that some are just entirely set in their ways and resistant to change.
Our own high street has seen I think 5 or 6 banks closing, our library is temporarily shut with a much smaller temp one open. We also don't even have a council office available, it shut during covid, didn't open back up and is now being sold. We don't have a police station that the public can access.
So yes, a massive portion of my day is helping people figure what what they can do, where they can go and how to access services that used to be "walk in". So I look for branches of things that are still walk in, plan easy journeys via public transport if needed, look for free courses available, look for coffee mornings dedicated to this kind of thing etc. There is lots of help out there, finding it is the hard part |
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"
There do need to be non-digital ways to deal with key issues like banking, health etc because tech breaks. It isn't always working and so all of us need the backup option of an actual human to help us. Not an online bank or a machine. "
The recent 'glitch' in air traffic control software being a case in point |
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"
There do need to be non-digital ways to deal with key issues like banking, health etc because tech breaks. It isn't always working and so all of us need the backup option of an actual human to help us. Not an online bank or a machine.
The recent 'glitch' in air traffic control software being a case in point "
And numerous times when people have been unable to access their accounts online. I was at a shop recently and all their card machines had gone down. Only way to pay was cash. Ironically it was one of those that recently had gone to card only payments. Big lesson |
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"
There do need to be non-digital ways to deal with key issues like banking, health etc because tech breaks. It isn't always working and so all of us need the backup option of an actual human to help us. Not an online bank or a machine.
The recent 'glitch' in air traffic control software being a case in point
And numerous times when people have been unable to access their accounts online. I was at a shop recently and all their card machines had gone down. Only way to pay was cash. Ironically it was one of those that recently had gone to card only payments. Big lesson "
My dad is always saying "but what happens when the net goes down?" |
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"
There do need to be non-digital ways to deal with key issues like banking, health etc because tech breaks. It isn't always working and so all of us need the backup option of an actual human to help us. Not an online bank or a machine.
The recent 'glitch' in air traffic control software being a case in point
And numerous times when people have been unable to access their accounts online. I was at a shop recently and all their card machines had gone down. Only way to pay was cash. Ironically it was one of those that recently had gone to card only payments. Big lesson
My dad is always saying "but what happens when the net goes down?""
Good man  |
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By *JB1954Man
over a year ago
Reading |
My elderly neighbours ( mid eighties). Do not have any internet . Yes a mobile phone. They have done everything by phone or in person. Now becoming a problem as the male no longer driving.
As others have said they due to age are finding to get things done as no online etc. Their only son lives 70 miles away. Their phone bill going up if having to make calls to sort things out.
I have set up for them email address . Which their son has details . So some things can be done online. But again not easy as they have to wait for son to check email etc. Then if a form needs filling in. Either wait for it to be sent or yes get me to either print , let them use my desktop to fill in. Again not good especially as both not used to using online tech and if help needed . Asking me . Which then can see private information.
This week they had a problem as their bank wants them to go paperless for statements etc. Option on letter asked to set up online banking . They spent over half an hour trying to speak , inform bank they did not have any internet to do.
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By *olf and RedCouple
over a year ago
Nr Cardiff or at Chams Darlaston |
The elderly are sometimes getting a raw deal because they aren’t all using digital technology. I’ve noticed it even with my GP surgery, if you fill in an online form, issues sorted more quickly.
Red |
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"Did the Victorian parents struggle to get to grips with the installation of the home telephone? Of their first electric lighting at home? Of how to operate a gramophone? Probably.
I think this is exactly the same, just in the modern era. Things change, develop and move on and people have to try and adapt as it goes along. There's much modern tech I opt out of because I don't want it, but it might be "forced" on me in the future when it becomes embedded or standard practice.
My mum didn't live in a house with electricity until she was 12, her mum was frightened of it.
I get it, I really do, time and tide wait for no man etc but there's an astonishing lack of empathy for the old 'uns who feel left behind. I suppose it was ever thus"
My Grandma never got on with televisions. She called them the "evil eye" and didn't want to look at it. She and my Grandad never owned a television set in their entire 57yr marriage. |
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I think the elderly are expected to use the High Street (who can be more accommodating), the phone (which can sometimes) or their children (if they have them). They will often miss out on the best deals though. But they are kind of expected not to need them too I think.
The last time I really felt ageism (for the elderly, not myself) was when The BBC decided to 'be bold' and take a load of comedy online-only some years ago. Their rationale of it being for younger people really sickened me.
I have to say that a lot of elderly are actually interested in technology but are kind-of expected not to be. I think a whole generation felt they had to 'stand back' for younger people. I don't think it's helped us at all! I cherish the elderly and our golden years. The UK sadly is not particularly known as a country that particularly does that.
We are expected to die alone in understaffed hospitals while our children are testing our crowns.
pt
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I don't think it's ageist as such, but the increasing expectation that everyone is online and reasonably "techy", impacts most on the more vulnerable.
I would put the elderly, low income, disabled and those who don't speak English as a first language in this category.
Whilst technology is helpful for many, it can also create problems and situations where these people get a much poorer service or taken advantage of.
Nit |
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" I have to say that a lot of elderly are actually interested in technology but are kind-of expected not to be. I think a whole generation felt they had to 'stand back' for younger people. I don't think it's helped us at all! I cherish the elderly and our golden years. The UK sadly is not particularly known as a country that particularly does that.
We are expected to die alone in understaffed hospitals while our children are testing our crowns.
pt
"
I take serious umbrage to the last sentence in particular. I'm currently busting my balls to keep my Dad (dementia situation) at home and as independent as possible, all the while receiving next to fuck all support from the sources that are supposed to offer that.
I am disabled myself, I can't even get inside my father's house without assistance but I try. I drop everything and go scurrying off at a moment's notice, leaving behind my young child (6 years old), my job (I am the main breadwinner) and my own life (who needs one of those?)
I am worsening my own health to make my Dad comfortable in his latter years and you know what? Yesterday, one of the social services carers went to his house and asked him "does your daughter help look after you?" His answer? A sharp, staccato "NO!" It was like a slap in the face, a kick in the ribs. He has absolutely no idea what his own, frankly very selfish choices over his lifetime are now doing to his children, and me in particular. But dementia means that his inherent selfishness is now even more pronounced.
They say children should look after their parents because the parents did XYZ for them as they were growing up. Well. If the family system is reciprocal, I would leave my Dad to his own devices. I would promise the earth and deliver none of it. I would make only selfish choices that benefit me and I would be as impatient and brusque as possible at all times (unless things are happening to my own satisfaction, when I will be lovely and polite).
Not all older people have been martyred angels earlier in life. Some spent their adult lives ignoring their children unless it suited them, living for the moment, building up debts and making very unwise decisions, which they then effectively dump on the doorstep of their children, to pick up the pieces when they lose the ability to do so.
I love my Dad but he was a terrible father and made ridiculous choices that my brother and I are now paying for. I am paying not only in my time and health, but financially too. Who pays for stuff he can't afford? Me.
It's very difficult for even the most tranquil and serene of families to look after their elderly relatives without professional input because people are living much longer lives, they have many complex and multiple health conditions requiring treatment/input and no longer are women just expected to stay at home and be everyone else's skivvy (even if women STILL bear the overwhelming brunt of unpaid family care responsibilities).
The trend of having children later and later in life (my Dad was 47 when I was born) means that when those parents require elder care, their children will be much younger than the average in the past. Their children will have their own children who are very young/school age (as my brother and I do) and so these offspring who are expected to give care to ill, disabled older parents also will have babes in arms, little children at primary school etc to look after too.
People can only be stretched so thin before they break. Our 6yo has started waking in the night again. Why? Because she's checking I'm still there. Too many mornings, she's woken up to find me gone, called away to deal with Grandpa. Is that fair to her? Am I being a good mother whilst trying to be a good daughter? I fear I am failing at everything, whilst trying to succeed. |
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By *unchalMan
over a year ago
Dartford |
"When you take a package holiday everything is done via text, email or the app. Directions to your transfer, information about trips, problems while away...all by phone, text or email.
That's fine for us as is internet banking etc. but what about the eldery who have no idea how to use an iPhone or Android, don't have access to the net and struggle with modern tech? They seem to be increasingly excluded from things that were once pretty straightforward to navigate.
Is this ageist or just the march of progress? Grayson Perry mentioned it on tracks if my years a week or so ago."
Don't worry. I doubt if they will want to leave the country! |
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" I have to say that a lot of elderly are actually interested in technology but are kind-of expected not to be. I think a whole generation felt they had to 'stand back' for younger people. I don't think it's helped us at all! I cherish the elderly and our golden years. The UK sadly is not particularly known as a country that particularly does that.
We are expected to die alone in understaffed hospitals while our children are testing our crowns.
pt
I take serious umbrage to the last sentence in particular. I'm currently busting my balls to keep my Dad (dementia situation) at home and as independent as possible, all the while receiving next to fuck all support from the sources that are supposed to offer that.
I am disabled myself, I can't even get inside my father's house without assistance but I try. I drop everything and go scurrying off at a moment's notice, leaving behind my young child (6 years old), my job (I am the main breadwinner) and my own life (who needs one of those?)
I am worsening my own health to make my Dad comfortable in his latter years and you know what? Yesterday, one of the social services carers went to his house and asked him "does your daughter help look after you?" His answer? A sharp, staccato "NO!" It was like a slap in the face, a kick in the ribs. He has absolutely no idea what his own, frankly very selfish choices over his lifetime are now doing to his children, and me in particular. But dementia means that his inherent selfishness is now even more pronounced.
They say children should look after their parents because the parents did XYZ for them as they were growing up. Well. If the family system is reciprocal, I would leave my Dad to his own devices. I would promise the earth and deliver none of it. I would make only selfish choices that benefit me and I would be as impatient and brusque as possible at all times (unless things are happening to my own satisfaction, when I will be lovely and polite).
Not all older people have been martyred angels earlier in life. Some spent their adult lives ignoring their children unless it suited them, living for the moment, building up debts and making very unwise decisions, which they then effectively dump on the doorstep of their children, to pick up the pieces when they lose the ability to do so.
I love my Dad but he was a terrible father and made ridiculous choices that my brother and I are now paying for. I am paying not only in my time and health, but financially too. Who pays for stuff he can't afford? Me.
It's very difficult for even the most tranquil and serene of families to look after their elderly relatives without professional input because people are living much longer lives, they have many complex and multiple health conditions requiring treatment/input and no longer are women just expected to stay at home and be everyone else's skivvy (even if women STILL bear the overwhelming brunt of unpaid family care responsibilities).
The trend of having children later and later in life (my Dad was 47 when I was born) means that when those parents require elder care, their children will be much younger than the average in the past. Their children will have their own children who are very young/school age (as my brother and I do) and so these offspring who are expected to give care to ill, disabled older parents also will have babes in arms, little children at primary school etc to look after too.
People can only be stretched so thin before they break. Our 6yo has started waking in the night again. Why? Because she's checking I'm still there. Too many mornings, she's woken up to find me gone, called away to deal with Grandpa. Is that fair to her? Am I being a good mother whilst trying to be a good daughter? I fear I am failing at everything, whilst trying to succeed."
Well said!
Far too many people live very rosy and sheltered lives 
My gran is almost 98, and my dad admits she wasn't a great mother. That doesn't mean he doesn't love her or that he, my mum and me don't support her. She's generally well but less mobile these days. My parents are in their mid 70s.
Nita |
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I was a dementia carer for many years (and I was a very good one to the point where it made me very ill), nobody has to take my post above personally! These kinds of threads are always emotive.
A personal comment is just that - a personal comment. Please don't take something personally that clearly is not personal! It's just a socio-political observation (an abstraction more than an exaggeration) that most people will surely agree has truth in it - or why are we all finding it so difficult to care?
pt
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"I was a dementia carer for many years (and I was a very good one to the point where it made me very ill), nobody has to take my post above personally! These kinds of threads are always emotive.
A personal comment is just that - a personal comment. Please don't take something personally that clearly is not personal! It's just a socio-political observation (an abstraction more than an exaggeration) that most people will surely agree has truth in it - or why are we all finding it so difficult to care?
pt
"
The human age span being, on average in the UK, 85+, is a very new thing. Which generation has had to care for elders for so long, with significant and complex morbidity due to improved supportive healthcare?
I'm taking it personally because it seems to be a prevalent school of thought in society and in professional circles - that younger family members are expected, nay, it's their DUTY to sacrifice themselves for their elderly relatives, come hell or high water. It's a massive taboo to say your parent was a crappy (or worse) parent and actually, technically you owe them absolutely nothing and they could have made better plans for their old age. "My kids will pick up the pieces" isn't really a plan.
And it's great that you were or are an excellent dementia carer, but when one cannot physically get into the house where the dementia sufferer is residing, I think you'll agree it does compromise on one's ability to perform the required tasks? This is exactly my point - just because you (or anyone else) was or is able to provide care, it does not mean other people are. But we who cannot provide care ourselves are criticised, stigmatised as uncaring, unloving family members and people drop hints about us wanting our family member dead so we can run off with the proceeds.
If I was after the proceeds of a Will, I'd have buggered off long ago to find a pensioner to befriend who actually has something to leave.
I'm going to push back against the Florence Nightingale trope and say the thing that is taboo. Not all parents deserve their children's care and not all children can or should be expected to provide it. |
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By *adMerWoman
over a year ago
Sandwich |
I am giving my elderly mother the best that she can hope to get from me, which is nothing.
If I had any contact with her, I might be tempted to return some of the abuse she gave me when I was the vulnerable one. |
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"When you take a package holiday everything is done via text, email or the app. Directions to your transfer, information about trips, problems while away...all by phone, text or email.
That's fine for us as is internet banking etc. but what about the eldery who have no idea how to use an iPhone or Android, don't have access to the net and struggle with modern tech? They seem to be increasingly excluded from things that were once pretty straightforward to navigate.
Is this ageist or just the march of progress? Grayson Perry mentioned it on tracks if my years a week or so ago."
I work with some older (60+) people. Some catching up, but some living in the 70's.
I think it depends on the older person, plus how much the kids/grandkids pushing them. |
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"When you take a package holiday everything is done via text, email or the app. Directions to your transfer, information about trips, problems while away...all by phone, text or email.
That's fine for us as is internet banking etc. but what about the eldery who have no idea how to use an iPhone or Android, don't have access to the net and struggle with modern tech? They seem to be increasingly excluded from things that were once pretty straightforward to navigate.
Is this ageist or just the march of progress? Grayson Perry mentioned it on tracks if my years a week or so ago.
I work with some older (60+) people. Some catching up, but some living in the 70's.
I think it depends on the older person, plus how much the kids/grandkids pushing them. "
My Dad was a very early adopter of mobile phones, computers etc. Despite pretty bad dementia, he still manages to use his smartphone and PC at a very basic level. He's now needing help on internet banking etc but until fairly recently, he could do that. He's 84. |
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I don't think that anyone could argue that lot of people aren't natural carers (it isn't easy at all for a lot of people and actually impossible for some), or they just don't have the time, physical ability, or even and maybe-righteously the actual inclination.
But I do feel a sense of duty about it, and I can see that we need a lot of supporting help that we just aren't getting. Even our laws aren't fit for purpose regarding dementia imo.
Britain for me hasn't properly evolved as a society to cope with the totality of modern family life like other countries have (or have maintained more correctly) - I think we have slowly but steadily devolved from it particularly since the industrial revolution. We Sold our nursing homes in the 1980's and the very care in their bricks and mortar. That particular Clearance symbolised a lot for me. We invested in the idea of a nuclear family, but we haven't expanded enough so we need our parents money/houses. As a society we've made some real wrong turns I think.
pt
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"I don't think that anyone could argue that lot of people aren't natural carers (it isn't easy at all for a lot of people and actually impossible for some), or they just don't have the time, physical ability, or even and maybe-righteously the actual inclination.
But I do feel a sense of duty about it, and I can see that we need a lot of supporting help that we just aren't getting. Even our laws aren't fit for purpose regarding dementia imo.
Britain for me hasn't properly evolved as a society to cope with the totality of modern family life like other countries have (or have maintained more correctly) - I think we have slowly but steadily devolved from it particularly since the industrial revolution. We Sold our nursing homes in the 1980's and the very care in their bricks and mortar. That particular Clearance symbolised a lot for me. We invested in the idea of a nuclear family, but we haven't expanded enough so we need our parents money/houses. As a society we've made some real wrong turns I think.
pt
"
Have you read any of the other comments? Never mind.
Need our parent's money/houses?!?!?! How farcically hilarious. It is a comparatively small subset of the older population who are sitting on untold riches. Lots of people lack two brass farthings to rub together and will only leave their children a few coppers and last week's unsuccessful Lottery ticket.
There are people in their 80s with mortgages and credit card debts and people who are nearing retirement age who have had every property they ever had involvement in, repossessed!
Can we stop with the "all older people have loads of money/capital" stuff and can we stop using any negative language to describe families who simply cannot or do not wish to, offer extensive unpaid care to relatives? |
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"When you take a package holiday everything is done via text, email or the app. Directions to your transfer, information about trips, problems while away...all by phone, text or email.
That's fine for us as is internet banking etc. but what about the eldery who have no idea how to use an iPhone or Android, don't have access to the net and struggle with modern tech? They seem to be increasingly excluded from things that were once pretty straightforward to navigate.
Is this ageist or just the march of progress? Grayson Perry mentioned it on tracks if my years a week or so ago."
When the copper cable landlines are switched off in 2025, all land line phones will use VoIP (Voice Over Internet Protocol), so any household without Internet, will be unable to have a land-line phone. This will affect many elderly who rely on it. Many won't be able to afford the Internet due to the Tory invoked financial crisis, as well as many being unable to get to terms with the new technology. |
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"When you take a package holiday everything is done via text, email or the app. Directions to your transfer, information about trips, problems while away...all by phone, text or email.
That's fine for us as is internet banking etc. but what about the eldery who have no idea how to use an iPhone or Android, don't have access to the net and struggle with modern tech? They seem to be increasingly excluded from things that were once pretty straightforward to navigate.
Is this ageist or just the march of progress? Grayson Perry mentioned it on tracks if my years a week or so ago.
When the copper cable landlines are switched off in 2025, all land line phones will use VoIP (Voice Over Internet Protocol), so any household without Internet, will be unable to have a land-line phone. This will affect many elderly who rely on it. Many won't be able to afford the Internet due to the Tory invoked financial crisis, as well as many being unable to get to terms with the new technology. "
This is ridiculous for everyone, for so many reasons. Lots of places have hardly any mobile signal and poor internet connection - how will they make emergency calls if required? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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A lot to scroll through but I think it’s the March of progress which, in my opinion is accelerating. It’s very sad that many folk are failed in that but it’s a hurricane of technology x |
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"I don't think that anyone could argue that lot of people aren't natural carers (it isn't easy at all for a lot of people and actually impossible for some), or they just don't have the time, physical ability, or even and maybe-righteously the actual inclination.
But I do feel a sense of duty about it, and I can see that we need a lot of supporting help that we just aren't getting. Even our laws aren't fit for purpose regarding dementia imo.
Britain for me hasn't properly evolved as a society to cope with the totality of modern family life like other countries have (or have maintained more correctly) - I think we have slowly but steadily devolved from it particularly since the industrial revolution. We Sold our nursing homes in the 1980's and the very care in their bricks and mortar. That particular Clearance symbolised a lot for me. We invested in the idea of a nuclear family, but we haven't expanded enough so we need our parents money/houses. As a society we've made some real wrong turns I think.
pt
Have you read any of the other comments? Never mind.
Need our parent's money/houses?!?!?! How farcically hilarious. It is a comparatively small subset of the older population who are sitting on untold riches. Lots of people lack two brass farthings to rub together and will only leave their children a few coppers and last week's unsuccessful Lottery ticket.
There are people in their 80s with mortgages and credit card debts and people who are nearing retirement age who have had every property they ever had involvement in, repossessed!
Can we stop with the "all older people have loads of money/capital" stuff and can we stop using any negative language to describe families who simply cannot or do not wish to, offer extensive unpaid care to relatives?
"
.
Hang on, what are you actually reading?
Nobody is talking in such silly extremes ("all older people.." etc). Nobody has mentioned untold riches. Nothing in this thread is hilarious.
You simply don't need to point out that elderly people can be poor too, because that is simply obvious. Especially people 'approaching retirement age'!
I've seen people fight over fuck all inheritance. Scramble over it, never speak to each other again over it. Even with their parent still alive. Even people who don't actually need it! (though sadly many people feel they do and simply wait on it). I've seen it all. Very often that same money is needed for ongoing care, because we haven't invested in alternative solutions. What loses out? The ongoing care.
Ever heard of the Liverpool Care Pathway? (something that was officially abandoned but many, including me, say has become endemic). Helping people clear the way? Nil by mouth for having cramp in the night? It's all based on conversations with the family. I've seen bed blocking to the point where a fit man in his 60's with pretty bad dementia walked around the wards all day picking up wallets, doctors notes, all kinds of things. He was too well to die, but that's not what his family had in mind for him there. He did it for months, blocking one of the two single rooms between male and female wards (which he simply walked between and into all day long). You don't want to hear all the shit I've seen.
pt |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I was a dementia carer for many years (and I was a very good one to the point where it made me very ill), nobody has to take my post above personally! These kinds of threads are always emotive.
A personal comment is just that - a personal comment. Please don't take something personally that clearly is not personal! It's just a socio-political observation (an abstraction more than an exaggeration) that most people will surely agree has truth in it - or why are we all finding it so difficult to care?
pt
The human age span being, on average in the UK, 85+, is a very new thing. Which generation has had to care for elders for so long, with significant and complex morbidity due to improved supportive healthcare?
I'm taking it personally because it seems to be a prevalent school of thought in society and in professional circles - that younger family members are expected, nay, it's their DUTY to sacrifice themselves for their elderly relatives, come hell or high water. It's a massive taboo to say your parent was a crappy (or worse) parent and actually, technically you owe them absolutely nothing and they could have made better plans for their old age. "My kids will pick up the pieces" isn't really a plan.
And it's great that you were or are an excellent dementia carer, but when one cannot physically get into the house where the dementia sufferer is residing, I think you'll agree it does compromise on one's ability to perform the required tasks? This is exactly my point - just because you (or anyone else) was or is able to provide care, it does not mean other people are. But we who cannot provide care ourselves are criticised, stigmatised as uncaring, unloving family members and people drop hints about us wanting our family member dead so we can run off with the proceeds.
If I was after the proceeds of a Will, I'd have buggered off long ago to find a pensioner to befriend who actually has something to leave.
I'm going to push back against the Florence Nightingale trope and say the thing that is taboo. Not all parents deserve their children's care and not all children can or should be expected to provide it. "
I think you are both actually agreeing about the state of the hospital/ care systems etc.
Pt isn't aiming his comments at you. It's about the general state of the UK.
I understand you will be off the scale angry at your situation and the absolutely shite care system. And understandably angry at your dad basically saying you do fuck all for him when you very clearly don't. |
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Yes, I've heard of the Liverpool Care Pathway. Today, my Dad has hurled abuse at me down the phone with the care manager there. He's said he'd rather go and be hit by a train than remain in his current situation and would I fuck off and leave him to die on his own and if he dies by overdosing himself on medicine then so be it because we all die sometime. Then he told me he's taking a coach trip to North Wales. Then he'd forgotten about the medication conversation and then he hurled some more abuse at me.
He's clearly really happy and satisfied and the care system is working really well. |
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