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Free speech
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"I think people have always assumed it means freedom to say anything without contradiction or consequence. Then they act surprised when they find that isn't so"
It's the height of incoherence as a doctrine "free speech means I can say whatever I want and no one can criticise me and no one can do anything about it". Oh, so you're free and no one else is?
It shows that some people are either wildly dishonest or have the intellectual depth of a puddle. |
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"It didn’t, people are free to say whatever they want. Whether they’re free from the consequences of what they say is another matter."
I've heard people say that consequences for saying things, or consequences for their actions, is the slippery slope to the Holocaust.
Which to me is... intellectual depth of a puddle and someone who was coddled as a child. No, Billy, you can't eat all the cookies. No, Billy, if I send you to your room it isn't the same as starving Ukrainians to death. |
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Travelling |
Well it does included that. They are free to say whatever they like, how they like, when they like, to whomever they like.
They seem to forget that anything and everything will have a consequence. Sometimes it may be praise, sometimes it may be a challenge or a "punishment".
Bit of a luck of the draw.
Say whatever you like, be true to yourself. Just be prepared for whatever comes from you saying it. |
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"Context please."
Brand, fox, Wooton, trump …
“Free speech” seems to be used as an excuse to be offensive, without consequence. And if there is any pushback or any consequence then this is represented as denying free speech. |
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses "
Free speech in popular discourse is a subset of American law.
The fact that people in this country and many others are not aware of the laws of their own country, is neither here nor there.
I'd much rather people be aware of their own political and legal context than mourn something that never existed.
At least you only get the incredibly terminally stupid talking about the loss of the second amendment in this country. Yes, what we absolutely need is to loosen restrictions on speech and hand out guns. It goes so well in America  |
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
"
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this."
Yeah the first amendment wasn't really on my mind, being in the UK and all that.
I'm being facetious of course but the fact people are willing to write the things they write and put their name to it is quite scary. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this."
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.” |
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Yeah the first amendment wasn't really on my mind, being in the UK and all that.
I'm being facetious of course but the fact people are willing to write the things they write and put their name to it is quite scary."
Sure. Going to my previous post, a lot of people assume that the line for freedom of speech is the same as it is for the US. It isn't.
I'm not saying where I think the line should be - I think the US's line is too permissive, but I'm wary of state power - more that our centre for what "normal" is shouldn't be based in another country. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”"
Nobody is stopping anyone from having thoughts and opinions, though. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”"
Didn't see much of that right while Charlie was walking through London to have a crown stuck on his head. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”
Nobody is stopping anyone from having thoughts and opinions, though. "
The right to express those thought and opinions without facing action from the government
People are facing action from the government in the UK for expressing certain opinions or ideas
Whether you think that’s right or not is another matter, but to deny it’s happening is our right wrong |
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”"
ok cool, but everywhere has restrictions on that, including the United States, and the way people talk about freedom of speech doesn't start from the norms of their own countries.
Meanwhile maybe if we're looking to the UN for our standards, maybe we should get a little louder about our government being fascistic sacks of shit towards refugees  |
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"Social ramifications are perfectly suitable for saying words.
Governmental are not.
That's where the line stands for me.
"
That's an interesting thought. Can they be separated effectively? Where would the line be?
Would threats of violence be acceptable? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”
ok cool, but everywhere has restrictions on that, including the United States, and the way people talk about freedom of speech doesn't start from the norms of their own countries.
Meanwhile maybe if we're looking to the UN for our standards, maybe we should get a little louder about our government being fascistic sacks of shit towards refugees "
Glad we’ve understood  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”
Nobody is stopping anyone from having thoughts and opinions, though.
The right to express those thought and opinions without facing action from the government
People are facing action from the government in the UK for expressing certain opinions or ideas
Whether you think that’s right or not is another matter, but to deny it’s happening is our right wrong "
As has been said already, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence. Nor should it.
I’m not defending people allegedly being arrested for Facebook statuses (if that’s ever happened) - but to allow people to say anything they like would be ludicrous. Should we allow people to openly preach hate or racism publicly? |
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”
ok cool, but everywhere has restrictions on that, including the United States, and the way people talk about freedom of speech doesn't start from the norms of their own countries.
Meanwhile maybe if we're looking to the UN for our standards, maybe we should get a little louder about our government being fascistic sacks of shit towards refugees
Glad we’ve understood "
So... everywhere has restrictions on freedom of speech?
So why are you saying the UK is unusual?
The UK draws harder lines than some other places. Some speech, in this country, is sanctionable by the government. (I'm saying "is", not "should be")
Rights being absolute is very difficult. As we've seen even with the right to life during the pandemic. Granny might die, but we miss the pub and what about the economy. Meh. fuck life. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”
Nobody is stopping anyone from having thoughts and opinions, though.
The right to express those thought and opinions without facing action from the government
People are facing action from the government in the UK for expressing certain opinions or ideas
Whether you think that’s right or not is another matter, but to deny it’s happening is our right wrong
As has been said already, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence. Nor should it.
I’m not defending people allegedly being arrested for Facebook statuses (if that’s ever happened) - but to allow people to say anything they like would be ludicrous. Should we allow people to openly preach hate or racism publicly? "
Freedom of speech actually does mean freedom of consequences, just from the government, not socially |
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”
Nobody is stopping anyone from having thoughts and opinions, though.
The right to express those thought and opinions without facing action from the government
People are facing action from the government in the UK for expressing certain opinions or ideas
Whether you think that’s right or not is another matter, but to deny it’s happening is our right wrong
As has been said already, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence. Nor should it.
I’m not defending people allegedly being arrested for Facebook statuses (if that’s ever happened) - but to allow people to say anything they like would be ludicrous. Should we allow people to openly preach hate or racism publicly? "
There was a famous case about a decade ago where someone joked about blowing up an airport because of delays. They were taken to court and it blew up online. I believe it was correct under the law but an overreach in practice, because it was very clear it was a joke.
(Again, I'm not defending this. Just this is what is or was) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Some people will believe even the most innocuous of topics to be "offensive" to them. Publish and be damned.
Bess x"
This is potentially (depending upon the subject) the worst advice you’ll ever receive. |
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”
Nobody is stopping anyone from having thoughts and opinions, though.
The right to express those thought and opinions without facing action from the government
People are facing action from the government in the UK for expressing certain opinions or ideas
Whether you think that’s right or not is another matter, but to deny it’s happening is our right wrong "
Getting a long way away from what I actually posted.
I didn’t post about US, or government, or anything else like that. My question was more to do with the fact that “free speech” seems to be used as a mask by some people to justify making offensive comments and imagining they have immunity from any consequences |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”
ok cool, but everywhere has restrictions on that, including the United States, and the way people talk about freedom of speech doesn't start from the norms of their own countries.
Meanwhile maybe if we're looking to the UN for our standards, maybe we should get a little louder about our government being fascistic sacks of shit towards refugees
Glad we’ve understood
So... everywhere has restrictions on freedom of speech?
So why are you saying the UK is unusual?
The UK draws harder lines than some other places. Some speech, in this country, is sanctionable by the government. (I'm saying "is", not "should be")
Rights being absolute is very difficult. As we've seen even with the right to life during the pandemic. Granny might die, but we miss the pub and what about the economy. Meh. fuck life."
Not said the uk is unusual, you seem to be making up an argument in your head rather than looking for discussion, so I’ll leave you to it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Social ramifications are perfectly suitable for saying words.
Governmental are not.
That's where the line stands for me.
That's an interesting thought. Can they be separated effectively? Where would the line be?
Would threats of violence be acceptable?"
We can't even define violence so I've no idea how they'd be separated effectively haha |
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"Some people will believe even the most innocuous of topics to be "offensive" to them. Publish and be damned.
Bess x"
Some people mistake reaction to their speech as censorship.
It's just a reaction.
Unfortunately some coddled children believe that people not liking someone's work, and having things to say about it, is censorship. I think these coddled children need to spend a second in the real world and stop shining up their participation trophies from primary school. |
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”
Nobody is stopping anyone from having thoughts and opinions, though.
The right to express those thought and opinions without facing action from the government
People are facing action from the government in the UK for expressing certain opinions or ideas
Whether you think that’s right or not is another matter, but to deny it’s happening is our right wrong
Getting a long way away from what I actually posted.
I didn’t post about US, or government, or anything else like that. My question was more to do with the fact that “free speech” seems to be used as a mask by some people to justify making offensive comments and imagining they have immunity from any consequences "
I think it's all intertwined. People like an excuse to be shits, they draw on an imagined idea (US derived) of free speech, then scream persecution when people disagree with them, let alone when they find themselves falling on the wrong side of the law of the country they're actually in. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"but to allow people to say anything they like would be ludicrous. Should we allow people to openly preach hate or racism publicly? "
It's a good question. In principle I think perhaps we should in as much as trusting in the education and good judgement of the majority of people to over rule despicable views.
But then I see what people write online and I'm no longer sure I can trust this is the case!
Related to this though is the question as to who makes the judgement as to what is 'hateful' and how that may be abused by those in power. |
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses "
Perhaps there's just cause for any arrests..?
Of course being arrested doesn't mean a conviction etc.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Free speech has been dead in the uk for a long time
People getting arrested for Facebook statuses
Writing isn't speech.
It is for the purposes of the first amendment.
The bigger problem is the fact that the first amendment to the US constitution doesn't apply in the UK... and a lot of people seem to be entirely unaware of this.
Free speech isn’t an American concept. It’s the idea that we can have thoughts and opinions freely without the government taking action against us
“ The right to freedom of expression has been recognised as a human right in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international human rights law by the United Nations.”
Nobody is stopping anyone from having thoughts and opinions, though.
The right to express those thought and opinions without facing action from the government
People are facing action from the government in the UK for expressing certain opinions or ideas
Whether you think that’s right or not is another matter, but to deny it’s happening is our right wrong
Getting a long way away from what I actually posted.
I didn’t post about US, or government, or anything else like that. My question was more to do with the fact that “free speech” seems to be used as a mask by some people to justify making offensive comments and imagining they have immunity from any consequences "
Such a complicated question
I think times have changed from where having an unpopular opinion meant not getting invited to the town disco, now means getting black listed from large parts of society and the economy. You can lose your ability to earn a living or live in peace.
Social media and pressure for large companies to conform has basically made the social repercussions of an unsavoury opinion not too dissimilar to that punishment the government could dish out
We’re reaching late stage capitalism where the lines between government and corporations are becoming blurred and questions about how that interacts with a persons freedom of expression need to be discussed |
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"but to allow people to say anything they like would be ludicrous. Should we allow people to openly preach hate or racism publicly?
It's a good question. In principle I think perhaps we should in as much as trusting in the education and good judgement of the majority of people to over rule despicable views.
But then I see what people write online and I'm no longer sure I can trust this is the case!
Related to this though is the question as to who makes the judgement as to what is 'hateful' and how that may be abused by those in power."
I saw a case online where someone apparently sent credible threats of death to an online figure. From their work computer (they were tracked down).
Their work was alerted (a workplace where that kind of thing is explicitly prohibited) and they were suspended.
They're crying persecution.
Yeah sure hun. |
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By *a LunaWoman
over a year ago
South Wales |
Because they’re not aware of our laws. Yes, under the Human Rights Act you are entitled to freedom of expression. But it comes with a shedload of caveats that people don’t bother to look into and that often get updated regularly and quietly whilst folk aren’t looking.
However, there are also a lot of people who dance an annoyingly fine line of knowing what they can say and how they can say it without getting themselves in trouble.
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"I think people have always assumed it means freedom to say anything without contradiction or consequence. Then they act surprised when they find that isn't so
"
^This (despite any more official definition of the term.)
Though I would add that we are living in particularly lazy times, which is why I usually describe this as people today often saying "You can't say anything any more!" without realising they are forgoing the continued.. "without someone arguing with you!". Which I would say was always true!
I think people as a whole (certainly in the West) can actually *say* far more than we have ever been able to say, and with far-more outlets to communicate our feelings too.
But what *is* *particularly* true about today is the sense of lazy-minded entitlement that a very powerful generation of ('gammon') people have. What is frustrating is that those people tend to see pure 'entitlement' in those very same people who disagree with and see it in them!
But imo this particular opinion of entitlement (towards 'woke' people) is often arrived at more through 'reductive' reasoning regarding the arguments involved, rather than logically and unemotionally assessing their merit. And sometimes just following the top of their phone of course ('push' politics = lazy times indeed). *push* being the term used for targetted internet information.
It's lead to a deadlock between perceptions of 'entitlement' though.
And sometimes the 'woke' people (the 'lefties' and 'snowflakes' - I don't see the point of ignoring these terms any more) - cannot see the sometimes-genuine grievances of the 'Free Speech'-championing 'gammons' too, which can so-often be very-sadly self-obscured by some really gross insensitivity towards others imo. Sometimes woke people, who at least are trying to be positive and future-conscious (as all civilised life clearly demands) can get things wrong.
Society by definition is a 'trade' of freedom for survival, and that was ever the case for sure. The alternative is pure anarchy of course.
pt |
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"I think people have always assumed it means freedom to say anything without contradiction or consequence. Then they act surprised when they find that isn't so
It's the height of incoherence as a doctrine "free speech means I can say whatever I want and no one can criticise me and no one can do anything about it". Oh, so you're free and no one else is?
It shows that some people are either wildly dishonest or have the intellectual depth of a puddle."
Well put. |
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"
I'd much rather people be aware of their own political and legal context than mourn something that never existed.
"
The UK has had laws regarding free speach for more than 100 years before the second amendment |
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" The UK has had laws regarding free speach for more than 100 years before the second amendment"
I for one believe very little Speach should be banned for 2 reason 1) easier to point out what wrong with logic, reason and debate 2) banning something doesn't make it go away these people still do the same thing or have the same opinion it just now hidden underground and harder to address .
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