FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > The great big debate.
The great big debate.
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"I've known manly men who moisturise more than me. It's quite common now, I think. " Hell yeah…day and night cream! | |||
"I've known manly men who moisturise more than me. It's quite common now, I think. " Black men always moisturise- that’s not related to masculinity  | |||
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"Gender fluid. No. I'm quite sure where I'm at. Do I give a monkeys about what people think. No. Which is why my skin glows, I look years younger than I am, get all the dates and have hilarious brunches with the girls from work in their early 20s. We over label everything and my god is it sucking the life out of me. And not in the way I usually ask for. Sometimes instruct. Maybe tell." Why does your skin glow? Do tell because I'd like mine to  | |||
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"I've known manly men who moisturise more than me. It's quite common now, I think. Black men always moisturise- that’s not related to masculinity "These were white men with outdoorsy, physical jobs. We all know black men crumble like a leaf in Autumn if they don't moisturise  | |||
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"I'm just me. I never consider gender really. I am aware that I have been treated differently because of how other people perceive me and that in part is due to me looking like lots of people's idea of what a woman is. However it's also down to my age, my size (I'm quite small), my colour, my clothes etc etc I can do some stuff men do, I can't do some stuff men do" In school I was better at electronics, woodwork and technical drawing than all of the boys. I was the only girl in the TD class and wasn't bothered by it. I don't think anyone gave a shit. I looked quite girly with my slender body,long blonde hair and eyes of blue but I didn't act it. We didn't talk about gender, but it was covered in a lot of songs | |||
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"I'm just me. I never consider gender really. I am aware that I have been treated differently because of how other people perceive me and that in part is due to me looking like lots of people's idea of what a woman is. However it's also down to my age, my size (I'm quite small), my colour, my clothes etc etc I can do some stuff men do, I can't do some stuff men do In school I was better at electronics, woodwork and technical drawing than all of the boys. I was the only girl in the TD class and wasn't bothered by it. I don't think anyone gave a shit. I looked quite girly with my slender body,long blonde hair and eyes of blue but I didn't act it. We didn't talk about gender, but it was covered in a lot of songs "I went to an all girls school. We all got treated the same...badly  | |||
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"By the way I understand gender identity and I don’t want to ask whether you feel comfortable in your gender identity. My gender performance doesn’t make me less of a man- gender isn’t real etc. BUT in what ways do you perform your gender? Tell me about that. And tell me about whether you like traditional gender performance in a partners " I look after children and do it very well. I bake. I sew. I knit. I sing while I'm dusting the house. That's societies idea of me playing my gender role. I like engineering and sport-even though I can't do them now. I drive like a granny, and a racing driver. | |||
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"I'm just me. I never consider gender really. I am aware that I have been treated differently because of how other people perceive me and that in part is due to me looking like lots of people's idea of what a woman is. However it's also down to my age, my size (I'm quite small), my colour, my clothes etc etc I can do some stuff men do, I can't do some stuff men do In school I was better at electronics, woodwork and technical drawing than all of the boys. I was the only girl in the TD class and wasn't bothered by it. I don't think anyone gave a shit. I looked quite girly with my slender body,long blonde hair and eyes of blue but I didn't act it. We didn't talk about gender, but it was covered in a lot of songs
I went to an all girls school. We all got treated the same...badly "When I went back to school I had to go into 6th form with people the year above me they made me do typing. I absolutely detested it and I'm still rubbish at it. Back then us intelligent girls were supposed to go into offices and help the men. | |||
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 I embrace and own my masculinity 100%  | |||
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"This was a terrible idea for a post. "Why? | |||
"This was a terrible idea for a post.
Why? "Because I don’t think a lot of people have understood what I meant and i can’t currently explain it better. | |||
"This was a terrible idea for a post.
Why?
Because I don’t think a lot of people have understood what I meant and i can’t currently explain it better. "But is that important? People will always interpret a question in several different ways or swayed by the first few responses. It doesn't mean you or anyone else for that matter did anything wrong. | |||
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"This was a terrible idea for a post. "Let the comments flow! | |||
"This was a terrible idea for a post.
Why?
Because I don’t think a lot of people have understood what I meant and i can’t currently explain it better.
But is that important? People will always interpret a question in several different ways or swayed by the first few responses. It doesn't mean you or anyone else for that matter did anything wrong. "Not important outside of that I was quite interested in the response and I hope nobody has misinterpreted what I’ve also said about myself. Those are my own personal issues though. | |||
"This was a terrible idea for a post. Let the comments flow! "Sometimes you gotta take the L and keep it stepping bro | |||
"This was a terrible idea for a post.
Why?
Because I don’t think a lot of people have understood what I meant and i can’t currently explain it better. "Were you asking if we exhibit traits that are not traditionally considered male or female? And how do we feel about partners who exhibit behaviours or traits of opposite sex? That's what I understood it as. | |||
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"This was a terrible idea for a post.
Why?
Because I don’t think a lot of people have understood what I meant and i can’t currently explain it better.
Were you asking if we exhibit traits that are not traditionally considered male or female?
And how do we feel about partners who exhibit behaviours or traits of opposite sex?
That's what I understood it as.
"Well less male female and more ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ but yes basically. And when I say perform I am not implying that it isn’t genuine. Just to clarify that also. | |||
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"Yes, I am very typically feminine and have many traditional feminine traits - caring, affectionate, softly spoken, sensitive, submissive. I like cooking, fashion & beauty, shopping, keeping the house nice etc. I’m also only attracted to men who show traditional masculine traits - physically strong, rugged, not overly styled, confident, successful, protective, dominant and find it really attractive when they do typically masculine tasks or jobs - manual work, DIY, rugby, weightlifting etc." Exhibit A of a traditional woman   | |||
"Moisturising isn't masculine or feminine, it's just necessary to avoid dry skin. If I don't get a manicure my fingers look terrible. Not really gender related, just shit I do. Only my Mrs comments on gender stuff with me, apparently she likes it when I do 'manly' stuff "Moisturising is 100% not gendered.
But I disagree on the manicures. I feel like though our motives are not gendered, the idea of looking after oneself in certain ways is not associated with masculinities as we traditionally understand them (in this country- acknowledging masculinities differ) and are more associated with ‘femininity’ | |||
"Moisturising isn't masculine or feminine, it's just necessary to avoid dry skin. If I don't get a manicure my fingers look terrible. Not really gender related, just shit I do. Only my Mrs comments on gender stuff with me, apparently she likes it when I do 'manly' stuff
Moisturising is 100% not gendered.
But I disagree on the manicures. I feel like though our motives are not gendered, the idea of looking after oneself in certain ways is not associated with masculinities as we traditionally understand them (in this country- acknowledging masculinities differ) and are more associated with ‘femininity’"To me a masc guy getting a manicure is kinda like wearing nice shoes. It’s just setting self a standard about upkeep and appearance. | |||
"Moisturising isn't masculine or feminine, it's just necessary to avoid dry skin. If I don't get a manicure my fingers look terrible. Not really gender related, just shit I do. Only my Mrs comments on gender stuff with me, apparently she likes it when I do 'manly' stuff
Moisturising is 100% not gendered.
But I disagree on the manicures. I feel like though our motives are not gendered, the idea of looking after oneself in certain ways is not associated with masculinities as we traditionally understand them (in this country- acknowledging masculinities differ) and are more associated with ‘femininity’"I did feel a bit weird getting one initially but the fact that my fingers aren't cracking and rough any more wins through. When I was younger I picked the rough skin and they looked a right mess. Also I'm shit at cutting my nails. Oddly a friend commented how good my hands looked the other week. I guess women do notice these things. I do it for no other reason than it's cheap and practical | |||
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"Moisturising isn't masculine or feminine, it's just necessary to avoid dry skin. If I don't get a manicure my fingers look terrible. Not really gender related, just shit I do. Only my Mrs comments on gender stuff with me, apparently she likes it when I do 'manly' stuff
Moisturising is 100% not gendered.
But I disagree on the manicures. I feel like though our motives are not gendered, the idea of looking after oneself in certain ways is not associated with masculinities as we traditionally understand them (in this country- acknowledging masculinities differ) and are more associated with ‘femininity’
To me a masc guy getting a manicure is kinda like wearing nice shoes. It’s just setting self a standard about upkeep and appearance. "i think in modern society with things like metrosexual men i agree with you completely actually | |||
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"Yes gender fluid. In fact not fluid, just a great bit mix of masculine and feminine traits. I don't even think gender fluid works. I'm fluid in all of these different trains under the umbrella of masculine and feminine. But rigid in that I'm set in how my own perception of these traits are. I've always found myself comfortable doing the "girly" things and more comfortable around women growing up that will have had an impression I guess. I never have been and never will be nor want to be a "man's man" but I'm definitely not just feminine either. I don't know, I am whatever this is. Deal with it. " This is a really lovely response man thank you. I feel you fr | |||
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"This was a terrible idea for a post.
Why?
Because I don’t think a lot of people have understood what I meant and i can’t currently explain it better.
Were you asking if we exhibit traits that are not traditionally considered male or female?
And how do we feel about partners who exhibit behaviours or traits of opposite sex?
That's what I understood it as.
Well less male female and more ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ but yes basically.
And when I say perform I am not implying that it isn’t genuine. Just to clarify that also. "but you original question was about gender not a question about masculine or feminine traits so what is the question your actually asking?. | |||
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"I don't dress up for sex That's an aspect of my gender I won't perform " No lingerie or lipstick or makeup. That kinda thing? | |||
"Last time I checked there isn’t a gender war going on. Pitch your tent where you want to. " Haven’t you seen the war going on outside? | |||
"I don't dress up for sex That's an aspect of my gender I won't perform No lingerie or lipstick or makeup. That kinda thing?" Exactly that kind of thing I get nothing from it | |||
"This was a terrible idea for a post.
Why?
Because I don’t think a lot of people have understood what I meant and i can’t currently explain it better.
Were you asking if we exhibit traits that are not traditionally considered male or female?
And how do we feel about partners who exhibit behaviours or traits of opposite sex?
That's what I understood it as.
Well less male female and more ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’ but yes basically.
And when I say perform I am not implying that it isn’t genuine. Just to clarify that also. but you original question was about gender not a question about masculine or feminine traits so what is the question your actually asking?."Yeah but performing your gender is more in relation to how you outwardly perform/ express your gender- and I’m asking about it in relation to masculinities and femininities. And then I’m also asking whether you find more traditional expressions of gender more attractive in partners | |||
"I don't dress up for sex That's an aspect of my gender I won't perform No lingerie or lipstick or makeup. That kinda thing? Exactly that kind of thing I get nothing from it" That’s fair. I think during sex it mostly all comes off anyway. | |||
"This was a terrible idea for a post. "No it wasn't. I don't know how to answer it but I'm interested in the replies. | |||
"When I do something I don't do it as a particular gender. Perhaps it's my age, but gender doesn't play a part in my life. I've done things that most people my age would consider a man's job but I was brought up to do stuff for myself and did those things because my husband wouldn't or couldn't. Things like putting together a set of bunkbeds/wardrobes etc on my own; changing a car battery; digging over 80 × 30ft garden when I was 11; changing the broken plugs on appliances; small plumbing jobs etc. All things my dad would have done, but I enjoy doing. I don't feel like a woman anyway. I don't feel like anything. When I put on a strap-on and fuck a man I don't feel like a man. " I don't think being capable & independent has anything to d with gender they are just admirable qualities in a person. | |||
"Last time I checked there isn’t a gender war going on. Pitch your tent where you want to. Haven’t you seen the war going on outside?" I’ll check again and ask the neighbour ‘seen any gender war round here lately?’ | |||
"When I do something I don't do it as a particular gender. Perhaps it's my age, but gender doesn't play a part in my life. I've done things that most people my age would consider a man's job but I was brought up to do stuff for myself and did those things because my husband wouldn't or couldn't. Things like putting together a set of bunkbeds/wardrobes etc on my own; changing a car battery; digging over 80 × 30ft garden when I was 11; changing the broken plugs on appliances; small plumbing jobs etc. All things my dad would have done, but I enjoy doing. I don't feel like a woman anyway. I don't feel like anything. When I put on a strap-on and fuck a man I don't feel like a man. I don't think being capable & independent has anything to d with gender they are just admirable qualities in a person." Traditionally i think strong and independent are characteristics associated with masculinities (not all). For example leadership is associated with masculinity often rather than femininity. | |||
"Last time I checked there isn’t a gender war going on. Pitch your tent where you want to. Haven’t you seen the war going on outside? I’ll check again and ask the neighbour ‘seen any gender war round here lately?’" Stay woke | |||
"When I do something I don't do it as a particular gender. Perhaps it's my age, but gender doesn't play a part in my life. I've done things that most people my age would consider a man's job but I was brought up to do stuff for myself and did those things because my husband wouldn't or couldn't. Things like putting together a set of bunkbeds/wardrobes etc on my own; changing a car battery; digging over 80 × 30ft garden when I was 11; changing the broken plugs on appliances; small plumbing jobs etc. All things my dad would have done, but I enjoy doing. I don't feel like a woman anyway. I don't feel like anything. When I put on a strap-on and fuck a man I don't feel like a man. I don't think being capable & independent has anything to d with gender they are just admirable qualities in a person." It's the tasks that are typical to genders. I don't think being capable and independent are admirable. I don't want to be admired because I can change a car battery or tyre, or take off a toilet to clear a clogged u bend. | |||
"Last time I checked there isn’t a gender war going on. Pitch your tent where you want to. Haven’t you seen the war going on outside? I’ll check again and ask the neighbour ‘seen any gender war round here lately?’ Stay woke" Would you like a gender war, Pickle? You'd win in the moisturising battle | |||
"When I do something I don't do it as a particular gender. Perhaps it's my age, but gender doesn't play a part in my life. I've done things that most people my age would consider a man's job but I was brought up to do stuff for myself and did those things because my husband wouldn't or couldn't. Things like putting together a set of bunkbeds/wardrobes etc on my own; changing a car battery; digging over 80 × 30ft garden when I was 11; changing the broken plugs on appliances; small plumbing jobs etc. All things my dad would have done, but I enjoy doing. I don't feel like a woman anyway. I don't feel like anything. When I put on a strap-on and fuck a man I don't feel like a man. I don't think being capable & independent has anything to d with gender they are just admirable qualities in a person. It's the tasks that are typical to genders. I don't think being capable and independent are admirable. I don't want to be admired because I can change a car battery or tyre, or take off a toilet to clear a clogged u bend. " Thank fuck you can because I fucking can’t. | |||
"Last time I checked there isn’t a gender war going on. Pitch your tent where you want to. Haven’t you seen the war going on outside? I’ll check again and ask the neighbour ‘seen any gender war round here lately?’ Stay woke Would you like a gender war, Pickle? You'd win in the moisturising battle " I guess I wouldn’t like a war no. As I’m a pacifist. 
But I am always well creamed and soft. | |||
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"Last time I checked there isn’t a gender war going on. Pitch your tent where you want to. Haven’t you seen the war going on outside? I’ll check again and ask the neighbour ‘seen any gender war round here lately?’ Stay woke Would you like a gender war, Pickle? You'd win in the moisturising battle
I guess I wouldn’t like a war no. As I’m a pacifist.
But I am always well creamed and soft. "Yes yes yes but what about your moisturiser? | |||
I'm attracted to men who are sexually dominant but they don't have to perform masculinity to be attractive to me. If that makes sense or even answers your question! | |||
"Last time I checked there isn’t a gender war going on. Pitch your tent where you want to. Haven’t you seen the war going on outside? I’ll check again and ask the neighbour ‘seen any gender war round here lately?’ Stay woke Would you like a gender war, Pickle? You'd win in the moisturising battle
I guess I wouldn’t like a war no. As I’m a pacifist.
But I am always well creamed and soft.
Yes yes yes but what about your moisturiser? "
Nice | |||
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"Last time I checked there isn’t a gender war going on. Pitch your tent where you want to. Haven’t you seen the war going on outside? I’ll check again and ask the neighbour ‘seen any gender war round here lately?’ Stay woke Would you like a gender war, Pickle? You'd win in the moisturising battle
I guess I wouldn’t like a war no. As I’m a pacifist.
But I am always well creamed and soft.
Yes yes yes but what about your moisturiser?
Nice "I suppose that it would be considered 'girly' for us to start comparing notes on moisturisers | |||
"I'm about to start quoting Goldman and Berkman on this one. Wrong crowd, I'll save it for the pub later. Simplest answer is I try not perform at all in any context. And appeals to tradition are rarely persuasive to me. When people tried to tell my daughters to be more girly, wear dresses etc. They came to me upset about it - said dad they won't listen to me. I told those people to back the fuck off, let them decide for themselves - they are kids not dolls. I've had female friends all my life. Sometimes I am told I am manly; other times I am told I am one of the girls. I guess it's how you take me. " You sound quite similar to me in ways. The opinions of others on how our daughters should be is something I've definitely experienced | |||
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"I th8nk I am more locked into gender conformity due to my age. I didn't meet anyone openly gay before university. FAB has introduced me to transgender people and my brothers child identifies as non binary. So yes I probably are made more uncomfortable with men say crying than I should be. Though saying that I'm not that comfortable with anyone showing strong emotions. I'm the product of 2 of the most stoic nationalities so maybe this is not a big surprise." Sounds like we may have had a similar upbringing. Your comments on age had me check out your profile and, surprise, surprise, we grew up through the same era's. Isn't it amazing how the world has changed? I commented not that long ago to a lesbian friend of mine how attitudes have, for the most part, improved since we first met 30 years ago. When we first met, she had to hide who she was and now she can proudly walk down the street with her wife | |||
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"I have think about gender a lot. Gender performance a lot. And I wonder about how comfortable you are at being fluid with your gender? I am confident being more flamboyant and more emotional- things not traditionally associated with masculinity- and still feeling comfortable in my gender. I don’t mind getting manicures and all that stuff. Sometimes it can affect how people view me and I’ve had people talk about wanting “a man” or “more of a man”. So today I want to know, how do you perform your gender? And do you find traditional gender performance more attractive in a partner? Thoughts "I am probably more feminine in look/style (though not very feminine) and in the middle of traditional feminine and masculine in attitude (which makes some people see me as more masculine in attitude). But this is in traditional ways of people born.wjen I was (I am 42) and things are changing. It makes me happy to see little boys wearing princess dresses with painted nails and little girls in dinosaur t-shirts and baggy trousers. Not because I think that is a performance or what I think they should wear but because they have parents that are allowing thier children to discover who they are. To learn that thier gender does not have to dictate who they are or how they behave. I am most attracted to people who are comfortable with who they are and who don't feel the need to prove thier masculinity or femininity. I am realising though that style wise I am more often sexually attracted to less 'done up' feminine style and more androgenous to masculine style and that is the case for all genders. | |||
" It makes me happy to see little boys wearing princess dresses with painted nails and little girls in dinosaur t-shirts and baggy trousers. Not because I think that is a performance or what I think they should wear but because they have parents that are allowing thier children to discover who they are. To learn that thier gender does not have to dictate who they are or how they behave. " I love this. Children should be able to explore possibilities. My brother and cousins used to go mad in the dress up box with mad long skirts with a billion frills and god knows what. They were safe to play. | |||
"Gender fluid. No. I'm quite sure where I'm at. Do I give a monkeys about what people think. No. Which is why my skin glows, I look years younger than I am, get all the dates and have hilarious brunches with the girls from work in their early 20s. We over label everything and my god is it sucking the life out of me. And not in the way I usually ask for. Sometimes instruct. Maybe tell. Why does your skin glow? Do tell because I'd like mine to "Living near Chernobyl... | |||
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"Fine! I admit it. I tried those little sock things that one time" Was that at band camp? | |||
"Fine! I admit it. I tried those little sock things that one time" And so it begins … | |||
"Fine! I admit it. I tried those little sock things that one time Was that at band camp? "It was. And I can't even play an instrument | |||
"Fine! I admit it. I tried those little sock things that one time And so it begins … " | |||
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"I do wax my nose, just saying." Inside or out ? | |||
"I do wax my nose, just saying. Inside or out ? " Inside, it's the worst 
I did once have a barber do the outside, I couldn't stop him  I just lay there like a victim, it wasn't even hairy | |||
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"I am very rigid in my gender. I do all the girl things. I wear the bra, do the housework, cry sometimes, go to the hairdresser every 6 weeks, leave the toilet seat down and do all the responsible things. I also do the man things out of necessity. But I do them properly, not like men do. And I don’t leave the toilet seat up. " Toilet seat seems to piss you off Fluffy  | |||
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"I am very rigid in my gender. I do all the girl things. I wear the bra, do the housework, cry sometimes, go to the hairdresser every 6 weeks, leave the toilet seat down and do all the responsible things. I also do the man things out of necessity. But I do them properly, not like men do. And I don’t leave the toilet seat up. Toilet seat seems to piss you off Fluffy "It really does. No need to have it open at all | |||
"I am very rigid in my gender. I do all the girl things. I wear the bra, do the housework, cry sometimes, go to the hairdresser every 6 weeks, leave the toilet seat down and do all the responsible things. I also do the man things out of necessity. But I do them properly, not like men do. And I don’t leave the toilet seat up. " Ahem. #notallmen They tend to hit their heads. And block out signs, 4 yards away, to the left. How are you coping with the doors today? Didn't forget how they functioned? | |||
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"I'm still not satisfied on anything I've ever heard or read that "gender identity" as a concept exists. I am male, but I don't "Feel" male, or female. I can look down and clearly see my sex. But beyond that I am what I am; I behave as I behave. What does it feel like to "feel like a man" or a woman? How does that manifest? Ultimately to me it all feels rather like a missed point. People should be free to dress how they want, emote how they want, fuck who they want, call themselves what they want and within the confines of the non-aggression principle behave how they want. None of that requires that they feel a particular way conceptually. Noone has ever been able to satisfactorily explain the difference between the gender identity concept and sexual stereotypes. "I must actually be a man because I like working on engines" "I must actually be a woman because I like wearing dresses" We spent 50 years trying to abandon associating certain character traits as being intrinsic to a specific sex. Nursing as a woman's job, police as a man's job etc etc. And the whole thing seems like a return to that with a new coat of paint. " | |||
"I'm still not satisfied on anything I've ever heard or read that "gender identity" as a concept exists. I am male, but I don't "Feel" male, or female. I can look down and clearly see my sex. But beyond that I am what I am; I behave as I behave. What does it feel like to "feel like a man" or a woman? How does that manifest? Ultimately to me it all feels rather like a missed point. People should be free to dress how they want, emote how they want, fuck who they want, call themselves what they want and within the confines of the non-aggression principle behave how they want. None of that requires that they feel a particular way conceptually. Noone has ever been able to satisfactorily explain the difference between the gender identity concept and sexual stereotypes. "I must actually be a man because I like working on engines" "I must actually be a woman because I like wearing dresses" We spent 50 years trying to abandon associating certain character traits as being intrinsic to a specific sex. Nursing as a woman's job, police as a man's job etc etc. And the whole thing seems like a return to that with a new coat of paint. " This | |||
"I'm still not satisfied on anything I've ever heard or read that "gender identity" as a concept exists. I am male, but I don't "Feel" male, or female. I can look down and clearly see my sex. But beyond that I am what I am; I behave as I behave. What does it feel like to "feel like a man" or a woman? How does that manifest? Ultimately to me it all feels rather like a missed point. People should be free to dress how they want, emote how they want, fuck who they want, call themselves what they want and within the confines of the non-aggression principle behave how they want. None of that requires that they feel a particular way conceptually. Noone has ever been able to satisfactorily explain the difference between the gender identity concept and sexual stereotypes. "I must actually be a man because I like working on engines" "I must actually be a woman because I like wearing dresses" We spent 50 years trying to abandon associating certain character traits as being intrinsic to a specific sex. Nursing as a woman's job, police as a man's job etc etc. And the whole thing seems like a return to that with a new coat of paint. " Thoroughly agree. | |||
