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Should junior doctors beable to strike?
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"Everybody has the right to strike for higher wages, then sit back and enjoy decades of inflation misery. " It's not just the wages though, it's the working conditions too | |||
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"Yes shag it’s a beautiful forest and enjoy your walk. T" Is the strike in a forest  | |||
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"Junior doctors in england will strike for five consecutive days in july and it is the longest walkout in nhs history, with up to 47,600 members doing it. The strike is from 13th to 18th july and of course thy should be able to strike, but I think that there is a fine line between sectors that are saving lives as they are putting lives at risk, by not being able to attend to them. What is your view on it and why are they striking? Is it about pay or about work conditions? "Dont know enough of the detail. It seems to vary depending upon who is presenting the argument. I would be very reluctant to remove anybodies right to withdraw their labour for the right reasons and having followed an agreed dispute path. Sadly in this case until thry remove politics from our health system... It will interfere in way too much of the story. | |||
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"My personal opinion - Should they have the right? Yes. Should they be striking? No. Junior doctors get paid really well. Better than most of us. They are also still training. They’ll get paid absolutely tons once that training is completed. Also, a particularly personal point for me - I have been seriously misdiagnosed by a junior doctor in A&E, which led to a life threatening complication. That demonstrated to me that Junior doctors aren’t experienced enough to warrant the pay they are demanding. Nor are they experienced enough to demand a change in conditions etc when they’ve barely worked themselves. They should be focussing on their careers and improving things for patients. Also thirdly - aren’t the the same people that say save the NHS now the ones that are trying to drain it of cash? " Great points well made | |||
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"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them." Anyone have a ue where the date 2008 comes from? Why 2008? And not 2010 or 1999.? And how has that been allowed into a pay demand? I mean.. Independent review i get. Proper process i get (although perhaps its more about a process that leads to the outcome they demand?) but... Picking a random date and saying inflation has eroded our salary... Well thats true of anyone who was working in 2008. | |||
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"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them. Anyone have a ue where the date 2008 comes from? Why 2008? And not 2010 or 1999.? And how has that been allowed into a pay demand? I mean.. Independent review i get. Proper process i get (although perhaps its more about a process that leads to the outcome they demand?) but... Picking a random date and saying inflation has eroded our salary... Well thats true of anyone who was working in 2008." You'll hear 'pay cut in real terms', I've tried to explain to plenty of people that most of the country have been receiving pay cuts in 'real terms' but as far as I can tell, it only matters if you can blame it on governement. | |||
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"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them." Working conditions for junior doctors are bloody shite ... | |||
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"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them." Pay rises are often linked with changes to conditions, though. Story from years ago - we were offered a 5.1% pay rise with so many strings attached that it was a bad deal. We rejected it, and it was front page news on the evening standard. Some weeks later we accepted a far better deal that was a 3% pay rise. It didn’t go unnoticed that the Standard didn’t report us accepting the lower pay increase. | |||
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"My personal opinion - Should they have the right? Yes. Should they be striking? No. Junior doctors get paid really well. Better than most of us. They are also still training. They’ll get paid absolutely tons once that training is completed. Also, a particularly personal point for me - I have been seriously misdiagnosed by a junior doctor in A&E, which led to a life threatening complication. That demonstrated to me that Junior doctors aren’t experienced enough to warrant the pay they are demanding. Nor are they experienced enough to demand a change in conditions etc when they’ve barely worked themselves. They should be focussing on their careers and improving things for patients. Also thirdly - aren’t the the same people that say save the NHS now the ones that are trying to drain it of cash? " Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... | |||
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"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them. Working conditions for junior doctors are bloody shite ... " I don't dispute that, these strikes are not about conditions according to the BMA. | |||
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"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them. Working conditions for junior doctors are bloody shite ... " Nice tag line | |||
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"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them. Anyone have a ue where the date 2008 comes from? Why 2008? And not 2010 or 1999.? And how has that been allowed into a pay demand? I mean.. Independent review i get. Proper process i get (although perhaps its more about a process that leads to the outcome they demand?) but... Picking a random date and saying inflation has eroded our salary... Well thats true of anyone who was working in 2008. You'll hear 'pay cut in real terms', I've tried to explain to plenty of people that most of the country have been receiving pay cuts in 'real terms' but as far as I can tell, it only matters if you can blame it on governement. " In my industry the individual companies are willing to sort pay deals out. The unions are willing to sort pay deals out. The government however are preventing the companies from negotiating with unions because they’re in charge of talks. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... " Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them. Anyone have a ue where the date 2008 comes from? Why 2008? And not 2010 or 1999.? And how has that been allowed into a pay demand? I mean.. Independent review i get. Proper process i get (although perhaps its more about a process that leads to the outcome they demand?) but... Picking a random date and saying inflation has eroded our salary... Well thats true of anyone who was working in 2008. You'll hear 'pay cut in real terms', I've tried to explain to plenty of people that most of the country have been receiving pay cuts in 'real terms' but as far as I can tell, it only matters if you can blame it on governement. In my industry the individual companies are willing to sort pay deals out. The unions are willing to sort pay deals out. The government however are preventing the companies from negotiating with unions because they’re in charge of talks. " As I said, only matters if we can blame governement. I've seen not one person who is supportive of strikes criticise private companies for shit pay. | |||
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"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them. Working conditions for junior doctors are bloody shite ... Nice tag line" Well it's true | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them. Anyone have a ue where the date 2008 comes from? Why 2008? And not 2010 or 1999.? And how has that been allowed into a pay demand? I mean.. Independent review i get. Proper process i get (although perhaps its more about a process that leads to the outcome they demand?) but... Picking a random date and saying inflation has eroded our salary... Well thats true of anyone who was working in 2008. You'll hear 'pay cut in real terms', I've tried to explain to plenty of people that most of the country have been receiving pay cuts in 'real terms' but as far as I can tell, it only matters if you can blame it on governement. In my industry the individual companies are willing to sort pay deals out. The unions are willing to sort pay deals out. The government however are preventing the companies from negotiating with unions because they’re in charge of talks. As I said, only matters if we can blame governement. I've seen not one person who is supportive of strikes criticise private companies for shit pay. " I can only speak for my industry where it is literally the government extending the industrial action with their obstinance. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years?" Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. | |||
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"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them. Anyone have a ue where the date 2008 comes from? Why 2008? And not 2010 or 1999.? And how has that been allowed into a pay demand? I mean.. Independent review i get. Proper process i get (although perhaps its more about a process that leads to the outcome they demand?) but... Picking a random date and saying inflation has eroded our salary... Well thats true of anyone who was working in 2008. You'll hear 'pay cut in real terms', I've tried to explain to plenty of people that most of the country have been receiving pay cuts in 'real terms' but as far as I can tell, it only matters if you can blame it on governement. In my industry the individual companies are willing to sort pay deals out. The unions are willing to sort pay deals out. The government however are preventing the companies from negotiating with unions because they’re in charge of talks. As I said, only matters if we can blame governement. I've seen not one person who is supportive of strikes criticise private companies for shit pay. I can only speak for my industry where it is literally the government extending the industrial action with their obstinance. " Weren't the lowest paid rail workers offered something like 15% increase? | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. " You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them. Anyone have a ue where the date 2008 comes from? Why 2008? And not 2010 or 1999.? And how has that been allowed into a pay demand? I mean.. Independent review i get. Proper process i get (although perhaps its more about a process that leads to the outcome they demand?) but... Picking a random date and saying inflation has eroded our salary... Well thats true of anyone who was working in 2008. You'll hear 'pay cut in real terms', I've tried to explain to plenty of people that most of the country have been receiving pay cuts in 'real terms' but as far as I can tell, it only matters if you can blame it on governement. In my industry the individual companies are willing to sort pay deals out. The unions are willing to sort pay deals out. The government however are preventing the companies from negotiating with unions because they’re in charge of talks. As I said, only matters if we can blame governement. I've seen not one person who is supportive of strikes criticise private companies for shit pay. I can only speak for my industry where it is literally the government extending the industrial action with their obstinance. Weren't the lowest paid rail workers offered something like 15% increase?" I believe some deals were agreed, were they not? My grade were definitely agreed without industrial action, but our company can’t negotiate with ASLEF drivers because of the DFT ruling. I’m pretty sure our cleaners and lower grades received their pay rise. (And I don’t think it was anywhere near 15%) | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. " So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere." No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account." An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? | |||
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"The Army should go on strike ." If they feel that their pay and conditions aren’t up to scratch, I agree, they should have that right. I hate the fight to the bottom mentality that some have. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. " Its how the sides construct their argument.. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? " FY1 isn't entitled to London Weighting? | |||
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"The BMA say this: Junior doctors in the NHS in England are taking strike action in 2023 to: 1. achieve full pay restoration to reverse the steep decline in pay faced by junior doctors since 2008/9 2. agree on a mechanism with the Government to prevent any future declines against the cost of living and inflation 3. reform the DDRB (Doctors' and Dentists' Review Body) process so pay increases can be recommended independently and fairly to safeguard the recruitment and retention of junior doctors. According to that, its about pay and nothing else. People like to throw in 'it's about conditions' so that we will feel some sympathy for them. Anyone have a ue where the date 2008 comes from? Why 2008? And not 2010 or 1999.? And how has that been allowed into a pay demand? I mean.. Independent review i get. Proper process i get (although perhaps its more about a process that leads to the outcome they demand?) but... Picking a random date and saying inflation has eroded our salary... Well thats true of anyone who was working in 2008. You'll hear 'pay cut in real terms', I've tried to explain to plenty of people that most of the country have been receiving pay cuts in 'real terms' but as far as I can tell, it only matters if you can blame it on governement. In my industry the individual companies are willing to sort pay deals out. The unions are willing to sort pay deals out. The government however are preventing the companies from negotiating with unions because they’re in charge of talks. As I said, only matters if we can blame governement. I've seen not one person who is supportive of strikes criticise private companies for shit pay. I can only speak for my industry where it is literally the government extending the industrial action with their obstinance. Weren't the lowest paid rail workers offered something like 15% increase? I believe some deals were agreed, were they not? My grade were definitely agreed without industrial action, but our company can’t negotiate with ASLEF drivers because of the DFT ruling. I’m pretty sure our cleaners and lower grades received their pay rise. (And I don’t think it was anywhere near 15%)" Some deals were agreed I believe. I can't say I know the ins and outs of every single one, hence I asked. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? FY1 isn't entitled to London Weighting?" London weighting is dependent upon exact location and can be as low as £1200 for the outer fringe. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? FY1 isn't entitled to London Weighting? London weighting is dependent upon exact location and can be as low as £1200 for the outer fringe. " So its not regardless of location? Come on mate, I know you think it's a travesty but there no need to be economical with the truth to try to prove something. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. " Wow! I'd be more than happy with 30 k would b no struggling just saying! X | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? FY1 isn't entitled to London Weighting? London weighting is dependent upon exact location and can be as low as £1200 for the outer fringe. So its not regardless of location? Come on mate, I know you think it's a travesty but there no need to be economical with the truth to try to prove something. " The base salary is regardless of location. And I know you want to pretend that 30k is fine for a junior doc to survive, but it really isn’t for plenty. That £1200 lowest London weighing applies to those in Slough/Windsor for example - so they’d be earning 32k total. Is that a good salary for someone living around Slough? I promise you it’s not. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? FY1 isn't entitled to London Weighting? London weighting is dependent upon exact location and can be as low as £1200 for the outer fringe. So its not regardless of location? Come on mate, I know you think it's a travesty but there no need to be economical with the truth to try to prove something. The base salary is regardless of location. And I know you want to pretend that 30k is fine for a junior doc to survive, but it really isn’t for plenty. That £1200 lowest London weighing applies to those in Slough/Windsor for example - so they’d be earning 32k total. Is that a good salary for someone living around Slough? I promise you it’s not. " Ahh, now you change it to base salary  .
I'm not trying to pretend anything. 32k would see someone take home 2150 per month.
Rent on a 1 bed flat which I've just found is 950. That leaves 1200. That a damn sight more than plenty of people. And let's not forget that's for a first year. | |||
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"Everyone should have the right to strike regardless of position as long as it is with the right intentions. " "The right intentions" will vary from person to person. Therefore the only limit should be that a majority that voted, voted for the action. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? FY1 isn't entitled to London Weighting? London weighting is dependent upon exact location and can be as low as £1200 for the outer fringe. So its not regardless of location? Come on mate, I know you think it's a travesty but there no need to be economical with the truth to try to prove something. The base salary is regardless of location. And I know you want to pretend that 30k is fine for a junior doc to survive, but it really isn’t for plenty. That £1200 lowest London weighing applies to those in Slough/Windsor for example - so they’d be earning 32k total. Is that a good salary for someone living around Slough? I promise you it’s not. Ahh, now you change it to base salary .
I'm not trying to pretend anything. 32k would see someone take home 2150 per month.
Rent on a 1 bed flat which I've just found is 950. That leaves 1200. That a damn sight more than plenty of people. And let's not forget that's for a first year."Who’s cherry picking figures now? I can assure you as someone who actually experiences the cost of living in the south east and working in London, that £32k is not a lot to survive on. But I’m sure you know better. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? FY1 isn't entitled to London Weighting? London weighting is dependent upon exact location and can be as low as £1200 for the outer fringe. So its not regardless of location? Come on mate, I know you think it's a travesty but there no need to be economical with the truth to try to prove something. The base salary is regardless of location. And I know you want to pretend that 30k is fine for a junior doc to survive, but it really isn’t for plenty. That £1200 lowest London weighing applies to those in Slough/Windsor for example - so they’d be earning 32k total. Is that a good salary for someone living around Slough? I promise you it’s not. Ahh, now you change it to base salary .
I'm not trying to pretend anything. 32k would see someone take home 2150 per month.
Rent on a 1 bed flat which I've just found is 950. That leaves 1200. That a damn sight more than plenty of people. And let's not forget that's for a first year.
Who’s cherry picking figures now?
I can assure you as someone who actually experiences the cost of living in the south east and working in London, that £32k is not a lot to survive on.
But I’m sure you know better. "I'm not cherry picking any figures. You offered Slough (presumably because that's the lowest weighting) as an example so I checked Slough. Whilst I'm not in the south east, the cost of living where I live is much much closer to yours than many many others so I do understand to a fairly good extent. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? FY1 isn't entitled to London Weighting? London weighting is dependent upon exact location and can be as low as £1200 for the outer fringe. So its not regardless of location? Come on mate, I know you think it's a travesty but there no need to be economical with the truth to try to prove something. The base salary is regardless of location. And I know you want to pretend that 30k is fine for a junior doc to survive, but it really isn’t for plenty. That £1200 lowest London weighing applies to those in Slough/Windsor for example - so they’d be earning 32k total. Is that a good salary for someone living around Slough? I promise you it’s not. Ahh, now you change it to base salary .
I'm not trying to pretend anything. 32k would see someone take home 2150 per month.
Rent on a 1 bed flat which I've just found is 950. That leaves 1200. That a damn sight more than plenty of people. And let's not forget that's for a first year.
Who’s cherry picking figures now?
I can assure you as someone who actually experiences the cost of living in the south east and working in London, that £32k is not a lot to survive on.
But I’m sure you know better. "I'm in the south east and it really is! And would not call it surviving on that much? I survive on 12 k x | |||
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"NOT SAYING I AGREE OR DISAGREE. Not everyone has the right to strike. The UK armed forces non civies are not allowed to Strike, The Police are not allowed to strike, and Prison officers are not allowed to strike. Junior doctors are striking over pay and want a 35% pay rise, it has nothing to do with working conditions. This would take £2 billion a year from other vital NHS services. " Yes, you are right there, the armed forces have not the right to strike and yes, it does seem like it is about pay as well. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? " No the bottom m salary is £36K for a junior doctor and in London they get another £4K allowance, so it’s £40K minimum | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? No the bottom m salary is £36K for a junior doctor and in London they get another £4K allowance, so it’s £40K minimum " FY1 basic salary is 29,384. https://www.imgconnect.co.uk/news/2021/04/nhs-doctors-pay-scales-in-the-uk-explained/59#:~:text=in%20the%20UK-,FY1%20%26%20FY2,this%20increases%20to%20£34%2C012. London weighting is variable depending upon the region. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? No the bottom m salary is £36K for a junior doctor and in London they get another £4K allowance, so it’s £40K minimum FY1 basic salary is 29,384. https://www.imgconnect.co.uk/news/2021/04/nhs-doctors-pay-scales-in-the-uk-explained/59#:~:text=in%20the%20UK-,FY1%20%26%20FY2,this%20increases%20to%20£34%2C012. London weighting is variable depending upon the region. " Sure but... Are there other "payments" that are made typically? If they work longer shift, unsociable, out of hours call, location allowances, and so on.. What isbthr pension, holiday, sick like. One aspect such as base salary is important but so is the reality of what they actually get paid. | |||
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" Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... Junior Doctors DO get paid well because as I mentioned, they are training. Also I don’t know what you earn but junior doctors get between 30k - 55k. Hardly a struggle. What other job is it possible to earn that while while you’re still training? With a near enough certainty of getting 80k - 120k within a couple of years? Depending on your location, 30k isn’t necessarily a lot of cash. You’d struggle in London or the south east on that. You picked the lower number and ignored the highest. So don’t put the low figure out there. My point stands - what qualifies as a good wage in some areas is not so great elsewhere. No, I’ll represent accurate figures. What I won’t do is cherry pick and mish mash made up scenarios. For example - picking the lowest salary and the most expensive city. That pay scenario doesn’t exist. Location is taken into account. An Fy1 doctor in London will start on around 30k, regardless of location. How is that a mish mash made up scenario? No the bottom m salary is £36K for a junior doctor and in London they get another £4K allowance, so it’s £40K minimum FY1 basic salary is 29,384. https://www.imgconnect.co.uk/news/2021/04/nhs-doctors-pay-scales-in-the-uk-explained/59#:~:text=in%20the%20UK-,FY1%20%26%20FY2,this%20increases%20to%20£34%2C012. London weighting is variable depending upon the region. Sure but... Are there other "payments" that are made typically? If they work longer shift, unsociable, out of hours call, location allowances, and so on.. What isbthr pension, holiday, sick like. One aspect such as base salary is important but so is the reality of what they actually get paid. " But the only thing you can rely upon is base salary and contractual stuff. Everything else can be taken away or changed. | |||
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"My personal opinion - Should they have the right? Yes. Should they be striking? No. Junior doctors get paid really well. Better than most of us. They are also still training. They’ll get paid absolutely tons once that training is completed. Also, a particularly personal point for me - I have been seriously misdiagnosed by a junior doctor in A&E, which led to a life threatening complication. That demonstrated to me that Junior doctors aren’t experienced enough to warrant the pay they are demanding. Nor are they experienced enough to demand a change in conditions etc when they’ve barely worked themselves. They should be focussing on their careers and improving things for patients. "  | |||
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" I'm not trying to pretend anything. 32k would see someone take home 2150 per month. Rent on a 1 bed flat which I've just found is 950. That leaves 1200. That a damn sight more than plenty of people. And let's not forget that's for a first year." It may shock you to learn that some doctors have families. A 3-bedroom house in Slough starts at £1600 for rent only. | |||
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" I'm not trying to pretend anything. 32k would see someone take home 2150 per month. Rent on a 1 bed flat which I've just found is 950. That leaves 1200. That a damn sight more than plenty of people. And let's not forget that's for a first year. It may shock you to learn that some doctors have families. A 3-bedroom house in Slough starts at £1600 for rent only. " In which case they will have 2 incomes. If they don't, why should I subsidise them? | |||
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" I'm not trying to pretend anything. 32k would see someone take home 2150 per month. Rent on a 1 bed flat which I've just found is 950. That leaves 1200. That a damn sight more than plenty of people. And let's not forget that's for a first year. It may shock you to learn that some doctors have families. A 3-bedroom house in Slough starts at £1600 for rent only. " But heres the thing. The rent is the same for everyone. Not just junior doctors have to pay rent or have inflation affecting their shopping bills. Its why some of the cost of living arguments dont wash at all. As they are for everyone else too. Pay rise sure... Better package sure... But dont be making the argument that they have to pay rent or food shopping bills. We all do. | |||
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" I'm not trying to pretend anything. 32k would see someone take home 2150 per month. Rent on a 1 bed flat which I've just found is 950. That leaves 1200. That a damn sight more than plenty of people. And let's not forget that's for a first year. It may shock you to learn that some doctors have families. A 3-bedroom house in Slough starts at £1600 for rent only. But heres the thing. The rent is the same for everyone. Not just junior doctors have to pay rent or have inflation affecting their shopping bills. Its why some of the cost of living arguments dont wash at all. As they are for everyone else too. Pay rise sure... Better package sure... But dont be making the argument that they have to pay rent or food shopping bills. We all do. " So why join the race to the bottom? Everyone should be supporting everyone else. | |||
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" I'm not trying to pretend anything. 32k would see someone take home 2150 per month. Rent on a 1 bed flat which I've just found is 950. That leaves 1200. That a damn sight more than plenty of people. And let's not forget that's for a first year. It may shock you to learn that some doctors have families. A 3-bedroom house in Slough starts at £1600 for rent only. But heres the thing. The rent is the same for everyone. Not just junior doctors have to pay rent or have inflation affecting their shopping bills. Its why some of the cost of living arguments dont wash at all. As they are for everyone else too. Pay rise sure... Better package sure... But dont be making the argument that they have to pay rent or food shopping bills. We all do. So why join the race to the bottom? Everyone should be supporting everyone else." Nobody is racing anyone to the bottom. Its just a fact of life. Everyone has to live somewhere and eat. So its not a uniquely special cost for junior doctors. | |||
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" I'm not trying to pretend anything. 32k would see someone take home 2150 per month. Rent on a 1 bed flat which I've just found is 950. That leaves 1200. That a damn sight more than plenty of people. And let's not forget that's for a first year. It may shock you to learn that some doctors have families. A 3-bedroom house in Slough starts at £1600 for rent only. But heres the thing. The rent is the same for everyone. Not just junior doctors have to pay rent or have inflation affecting their shopping bills. Its why some of the cost of living arguments dont wash at all. As they are for everyone else too. Pay rise sure... Better package sure... But dont be making the argument that they have to pay rent or food shopping bills. We all do. So why join the race to the bottom? Everyone should be supporting everyone else. Nobody is racing anyone to the bottom. Its just a fact of life. Everyone has to live somewhere and eat. So its not a uniquely special cost for junior doctors. " I don’t think they’re claiming it’s unique to them, they just happen to be doing something about it. | |||
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" I'm in the south east and it really is! And would not call it surviving on that much? I survive on 12 k x" In fairness though, you aren’t really comparing apples with apples. At £12k I’m assuming you’re either working part time (3days a week at min wage), or retired? Certainly not putting in a 60 hour week? You’ll also be under the thresholds for tax and national insurance, so you’ll take home all your pay, and presumably be entitled to some form of benefit? And, you’re at the other end of your working life. I’m not criticising, just trying to point out that perspectives change as circumstances do. | |||
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" I'm in the south east and it really is! And would not call it surviving on that much? I survive on 12 k x In fairness though, you aren’t really comparing apples with apples. At £12k I’m assuming you’re either working part time (3days a week at min wage), or retired? Certainly not putting in a 60 hour week? You’ll also be under the thresholds for tax and national insurance, so you’ll take home all your pay, and presumably be entitled to some form of benefit? And, you’re at the other end of your working life. I’m not criticising, just trying to point out that perspectives change as circumstances do. " If a junior doctor is working a 60hr week then they're getting paid overtime so that £30k isn't £30k. | |||
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" I'm in the south east and it really is! And would not call it surviving on that much? I survive on 12 k x In fairness though, you aren’t really comparing apples with apples. At £12k I’m assuming you’re either working part time (3days a week at min wage), or retired? Certainly not putting in a 60 hour week? You’ll also be under the thresholds for tax and national insurance, so you’ll take home all your pay, and presumably be entitled to some form of benefit? And, you’re at the other end of your working life. I’m not criticising, just trying to point out that perspectives change as circumstances do. If a junior doctor is working a 60hr week then they're getting paid overtime so that £30k isn't £30k." And it’s also not contracted, and as such not reliable. | |||
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" I'm in the south east and it really is! And would not call it surviving on that much? I survive on 12 k x In fairness though, you aren’t really comparing apples with apples. At £12k I’m assuming you’re either working part time (3days a week at min wage), or retired? Certainly not putting in a 60 hour week? You’ll also be under the thresholds for tax and national insurance, so you’ll take home all your pay, and presumably be entitled to some form of benefit? And, you’re at the other end of your working life. I’m not criticising, just trying to point out that perspectives change as circumstances do. If a junior doctor is working a 60hr week then they're getting paid overtime so that £30k isn't £30k. And it’s also not contracted, and as such not reliable. " I didn't say it was. Someone was trying to compare a junior doctor doing 60hrs to someone working part time. BTW, one of the conditions the complain about is 'working hours'. I have a solution though, let them get paid what they want and work when they want, that should sort it. | |||
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" I'm in the south east and it really is! And would not call it surviving on that much? I survive on 12 k x In fairness though, you aren’t really comparing apples with apples. At £12k I’m assuming you’re either working part time (3days a week at min wage), or retired? Certainly not putting in a 60 hour week? You’ll also be under the thresholds for tax and national insurance, so you’ll take home all your pay, and presumably be entitled to some form of benefit? And, you’re at the other end of your working life. I’m not criticising, just trying to point out that perspectives change as circumstances do. If a junior doctor is working a 60hr week then they're getting paid overtime so that £30k isn't £30k. And it’s also not contracted, and as such not reliable. I didn't say it was. Someone was trying to compare a junior doctor doing 60hrs to someone working part time. BTW, one of the conditions the complain about is 'working hours'. I have a solution though, let them get paid what they want and work when they want, that should sort it. " Didn’t you say it was ‘about pay and nothing else’? So we’re agreed that it’s about conditions as well? Great stuff. | |||
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" I'm in the south east and it really is! And would not call it surviving on that much? I survive on 12 k x In fairness though, you aren’t really comparing apples with apples. At £12k I’m assuming you’re either working part time (3days a week at min wage), or retired? Certainly not putting in a 60 hour week? You’ll also be under the thresholds for tax and national insurance, so you’ll take home all your pay, and presumably be entitled to some form of benefit? And, you’re at the other end of your working life. I’m not criticising, just trying to point out that perspectives change as circumstances do. If a junior doctor is working a 60hr week then they're getting paid overtime so that £30k isn't £30k. And it’s also not contracted, and as such not reliable. I didn't say it was. Someone was trying to compare a junior doctor doing 60hrs to someone working part time. BTW, one of the conditions the complain about is 'working hours'. I have a solution though, let them get paid what they want and work when they want, that should sort it. Didn’t you say it was ‘about pay and nothing else’? So we’re agreed that it’s about conditions as well? Great stuff. " Nice switcheroo. The BMA say its about pay, go back and read. Junior doctors regularly complain about long working hours. | |||
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"They shouldn’t have to take any action whatsoever . They should have a fixed wage with increases in line with inflation plus the working conditions ( hours) should be reduced , they save lives . Where as a footballer gets more a No than than a junior doctor s annual wage , just for kicking a bag of wind about " The footballers bring much more money into into businesses etc hence the high pay. I’m not saying they are better than doctors. I’m simply explaining why their wage is high. Not to mention you’re comparing a private industry with a public one. And also comparing entertainment with healthcare. Makes no sense. | |||
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"They shouldn’t have to take any action whatsoever . They should have a fixed wage with increases in line with inflation plus the working conditions ( hours) should be reduced , they save lives . Where as a footballer gets more a No than than a junior doctor s annual wage , just for kicking a bag of wind about The footballers bring much more money into into businesses etc hence the high pay. I’m not saying they are better than doctors. I’m simply explaining why their wage is high. Not to mention you’re comparing a private industry with a public one. And also comparing entertainment with healthcare. Makes no sense." Plus if a footballer strikes, they would end up in court and get sued. If 99% of the world population stroked they would lose their jobs. These doctors want it all , sit at home watching CBeebies all day and getting their huge salary. They should try getting a real job like drilling holes in things or fixing blocked toilets | |||
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"They shouldn’t have to take any action whatsoever . They should have a fixed wage with increases in line with inflation plus the working conditions ( hours) should be reduced , they save lives . Where as a footballer gets more a No than than a junior doctor s annual wage , just for kicking a bag of wind about The footballers bring much more money into into businesses etc hence the high pay. I’m not saying they are better than doctors. I’m simply explaining why their wage is high. Not to mention you’re comparing a private industry with a public one. And also comparing entertainment with healthcare. Makes no sense. Plus if a footballer strikes, they would end up in court and get sued. If 99% of the world population stroked they would lose their jobs. These doctors want it all , sit at home watching CBeebies all day and getting their huge salary. They should try getting a real job like drilling holes in things or fixing blocked toilets " Not sure if serious…. | |||
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"I don't agree with striking, it's putting people's lives at risk and how many people are waiting for ops etc and are in pain and have to stay in pain.because they want a few extra pounds a month. It's selfish and totally non caring." If you were in their position, would you put the publics need before your own? | |||
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"I'm one of those unfortunate people in pain waiting for surgery. I have no sympathy at all. Don't like your job get another, and stop whining." Who would provide your care if the junior doctors all took your advice? | |||
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"Will they accept the offer the government have made?" I also wonder the same, it is strange how bma in scotland accepted a 12.4% pay increase for 2023/24 and not in england? They called the strike off too there. | |||
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" Is it about pay or about work conditions? "Broadly, and speaking as someone quite experienced in industrial relations and employment law, all of the current disputes are about both; but it’s complicated. The laws in this country relating to industrial action are massively prescriptive. You cannot strike because of potential unwelcome changes to workplace conditions of service. You cannot necessarily even strike after the imposition of said changes. You can, however, having jumped through a significant number of hoops, strike over pay. So, in answer to your question; officially the strike is over pay. Unofficially it’s also over working conditions and changes employers seek to simply impose rather than negotiate towards, and the pay issue provides the workforce (through their union) the opportunity to protest/negotiate those conditions. If the current government had been even half as clever as they think they are, they would have awarded all the public sector workers an RPI payrise, which would have removed the legal basis for the strikes overnight. | |||
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"Will they accept the offer the government have made?I also wonder the same, it is strange how bma in scotland accepted a 12.4% pay increase for 2023/24 and not in england? They called the strike off too there." Because the offer wasn’t made to doctors in England. Scotland’s devolved government made the offer to Scottish doctors. | |||
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"Junior doctors in england will strike for five consecutive days in july and it is the longest walkout in nhs history, with up to 47,600 members doing it. The strike is from 13th to 18th july and of course thy should be able to strike, but I think that there is a fine line between sectors that are saving lives as they are putting lives at risk, by not being able to attend to them. What is your view on it and why are they striking? Is it about pay or about work conditions? "I was listening to LBC as I was driving to work this morning. Listening to both sides I do agree doctors need a payrise but I am concerned about the paients and appointments being cancelled too | |||
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"No way, it contravenes their hypocratic oath of "do no harm" " They don't actually take this oath! And I think you'll find government has done more harm to the public than the doctors ever will. The plan in Scotland was consultant coverage in clinical areas, so emergency and day to day care on going, but massively inconvenienced. Plus they were going to pay consultants thousands per shift for cover! Lack of operating is dictated by available beds and resources, not because lazy drs won't operate. It's because the wards are full of folk waiting for home care packages or long term care facilities, as community, social work is in such a state. So the fact you are in pain and waiting for an operation is not the fault of the doctors!! | |||
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" I'm in the south east and it really is! And would not call it surviving on that much? I survive on 12 k x In fairness though, you aren’t really comparing apples with apples. At £12k I’m assuming you’re either working part time (3days a week at min wage), or retired? Certainly not putting in a 60 hour week? You’ll also be under the thresholds for tax and national insurance, so you’ll take home all your pay, and presumably be entitled to some form of benefit? And, you’re at the other end of your working life. I’m not criticising, just trying to point out that perspectives change as circumstances do. " Not entitled to any sort of benefit no! And was merely pointing out that 12 k is surviving not 30k and yes work part time! Retiring in few weeks so will "survive" on alot less! I was not commenting on their pay at all! Or weather or not they shd strike! Or how much they shd get for however many hours just the pure and simple that 30k is not surviving money! X | |||
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"Will they accept the offer the government have made?I also wonder the same, it is strange how bma in scotland accepted a 12.4% pay increase for 2023/24 and not in england? They called the strike off too there. Because the offer wasn’t made to doctors in England. Scotland’s devolved government made the offer to Scottish doctors. " I see and yes, it seems to be because of that too. | |||
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" Is it about pay or about work conditions?
Broadly, and speaking as someone quite experienced in industrial relations and employment law, all of the current disputes are about both; but it’s complicated.
The laws in this country relating to industrial action are massively prescriptive.
You cannot strike because of potential unwelcome changes to workplace conditions of service. You cannot necessarily even strike after the imposition of said changes.
You can, however, having jumped through a significant number of hoops, strike over pay.
So, in answer to your question; officially the strike is over pay.
Unofficially it’s also over working conditions and changes employers seek to simply impose rather than negotiate towards, and the pay issue provides the workforce (through their union) the opportunity to protest/negotiate those conditions.
If the current government had been even half as clever as they think they are, they would have awarded all the public sector workers an RPI payrise, which would have removed the legal basis for the strikes overnight. "So unofficially they are breaking the rules. Sack them, all they do is wander round hospitals at snails pace with a clip board deciding who can go home, nurses and real doctors do the actual work | |||
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" Is it about pay or about work conditions?
Broadly, and speaking as someone quite experienced in industrial relations and employment law, all of the current disputes are about both; but it’s complicated.
The laws in this country relating to industrial action are massively prescriptive.
You cannot strike because of potential unwelcome changes to workplace conditions of service. You cannot necessarily even strike after the imposition of said changes.
You can, however, having jumped through a significant number of hoops, strike over pay.
So, in answer to your question; officially the strike is over pay.
Unofficially it’s also over working conditions and changes employers seek to simply impose rather than negotiate towards, and the pay issue provides the workforce (through their union) the opportunity to protest/negotiate those conditions.
If the current government had been even half as clever as they think they are, they would have awarded all the public sector workers an RPI payrise, which would have removed the legal basis for the strikes overnight.
So unofficially they are breaking the rules. Sack them, all they do is wander round hospitals at snails pace with a clip board deciding who can go home, nurses and real doctors do the actual work " ...I actually have no words... I have a friend who is training to be a doctor and you couldn't be any further from the truth if you tried..... | |||
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"What about the 7 million plus people waiting for treatment, everyone seems to have forgotten about them.." Primarily the government who are supposed to be running things in the interest of such people as the seven million - but instead are interested in lining their own pockets and those of their pals. | |||
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" Is it about pay or about work conditions?
Broadly, and speaking as someone quite experienced in industrial relations and employment law, all of the current disputes are about both; but it’s complicated.
The laws in this country relating to industrial action are massively prescriptive.
You cannot strike because of potential unwelcome changes to workplace conditions of service. You cannot necessarily even strike after the imposition of said changes.
You can, however, having jumped through a significant number of hoops, strike over pay.
So, in answer to your question; officially the strike is over pay.
Unofficially it’s also over working conditions and changes employers seek to simply impose rather than negotiate towards, and the pay issue provides the workforce (through their union) the opportunity to protest/negotiate those conditions.
If the current government had been even half as clever as they think they are, they would have awarded all the public sector workers an RPI payrise, which would have removed the legal basis for the strikes overnight.
So unofficially they are breaking the rules. Sack them, all they do is wander round hospitals at snails pace with a clip board deciding who can go home, nurses and real doctors do the actual work
...I actually have no words... I have a friend who is training to be a doctor and you couldn't be any further from the truth if you tried....."You mean he’s a student ? Yes they don’t get the clipboards just yet , just alcohol and parties still. You may want to warn them to start learning to say (In good English) “you go home now!’ And how to carry a clipboard  | |||
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" Is it about pay or about work conditions?
Broadly, and speaking as someone quite experienced in industrial relations and employment law, all of the current disputes are about both; but it’s complicated.
The laws in this country relating to industrial action are massively prescriptive.
You cannot strike because of potential unwelcome changes to workplace conditions of service. You cannot necessarily even strike after the imposition of said changes.
You can, however, having jumped through a significant number of hoops, strike over pay.
So, in answer to your question; officially the strike is over pay.
Unofficially it’s also over working conditions and changes employers seek to simply impose rather than negotiate towards, and the pay issue provides the workforce (through their union) the opportunity to protest/negotiate those conditions.
If the current government had been even half as clever as they think they are, they would have awarded all the public sector workers an RPI payrise, which would have removed the legal basis for the strikes overnight.
So unofficially they are breaking the rules. Sack them, all they do is wander round hospitals at snails pace with a clip board deciding who can go home, nurses and real doctors do the actual work
...I actually have no words... I have a friend who is training to be a doctor and you couldn't be any further from the truth if you tried.....
You mean he’s a student ?
Yes they don’t get the clipboards just yet , just alcohol and parties still. You may want to warn them to start learning to say (In good English) “you go home now!’ And how to carry a clipboard
"Don't forget, you sit there in the corridor so we can forget all about you | |||
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"My view is that striking is a government sanctioned repudiatory breach of contract. I have an issue with that. I consider it should be the same as all other breaches of contract. The party not in breach can terminate the contract in consequence of the breach. This is my view in relation to all strikes in all sectors of industry " Good job you’re not involved in employment law then | |||
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"My view is that striking is a government sanctioned repudiatory breach of contract. I have an issue with that. I consider it should be the same as all other breaches of contract. The party not in breach can terminate the contract in consequence of the breach. This is my view in relation to all strikes in all sectors of industry Good job you’re not involved in employment law then" Good job you are not involved in government then since you devalue democracy. | |||
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"My view is that striking is a government sanctioned repudiatory breach of contract. I have an issue with that. I consider it should be the same as all other breaches of contract. The party not in breach can terminate the contract in consequence of the breach. This is my view in relation to all strikes in all sectors of industry Good job you’re not involved in employment law then Good job you are not involved in government then since you devalue democracy. " Not sure what’s Democratic about removing the right of the individual to withdraw their labour. | |||
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"My view is that striking is a government sanctioned repudiatory breach of contract. I have an issue with that. I consider it should be the same as all other breaches of contract. The party not in breach can terminate the contract in consequence of the breach. This is my view in relation to all strikes in all sectors of industry Good job you’re not involved in employment law then Good job you are not involved in government then since you devalue democracy. Not sure what’s Democratic about removing the right of the individual to withdraw their labour. " You wanted to remove my right to having a view different to yours. That is a dictatorship I never said they couldn’t remove the right to withdraw their labour. We don’t have forced labour in this nation. We all have the right to resign and move on to pastures new. If anything, I am more fiercely in favour of it than you. What I have an issue with is the ability to strike with protection. Clearly, the staff who are an asset would not be terminated due to their participation in a strike and those who are not particularly valued will be let go. I work in private practice. My performance matters. If I don’t perform I’m let go. If I don’t like my pay or conditions I leave and find more favourable terms elsewhere. If enough people left, the supply of staff would be low such that the pay etc would increase to bring people back. Basic economics really. | |||
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"My view is that striking is a government sanctioned repudiatory breach of contract. I have an issue with that. I consider it should be the same as all other breaches of contract. The party not in breach can terminate the contract in consequence of the breach. This is my view in relation to all strikes in all sectors of industry Good job you’re not involved in employment law then Good job you are not involved in government then since you devalue democracy. Not sure what’s Democratic about removing the right of the individual to withdraw their labour. You wanted to remove my right to having a view different to yours. That is a dictatorship I never said they couldn’t remove the right to withdraw their labour. We don’t have forced labour in this nation. We all have the right to resign and move on to pastures new. If anything, I am more fiercely in favour of it than you. What I have an issue with is the ability to strike with protection. Clearly, the staff who are an asset would not be terminated due to their participation in a strike and those who are not particularly valued will be let go. I work in private practice. My performance matters. If I don’t perform I’m let go. If I don’t like my pay or conditions I leave and find more favourable terms elsewhere. If enough people left, the supply of staff would be low such that the pay etc would increase to bring people back. Basic economics really. " Economics works when you have shareholders , free trade , free movement etc , it doesn’t work when you have a government ideologically opposed to the nhs and free healthcare | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise." Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. | |||
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"My view is that striking is a government sanctioned repudiatory breach of contract. I have an issue with that. I consider it should be the same as all other breaches of contract. The party not in breach can terminate the contract in consequence of the breach. This is my view in relation to all strikes in all sectors of industry Good job you’re not involved in employment law then Good job you are not involved in government then since you devalue democracy. Not sure what’s Democratic about removing the right of the individual to withdraw their labour. You wanted to remove my right to having a view different to yours. That is a dictatorship I never said they couldn’t remove the right to withdraw their labour. We don’t have forced labour in this nation. We all have the right to resign and move on to pastures new. If anything, I am more fiercely in favour of it than you. What I have an issue with is the ability to strike with protection. Clearly, the staff who are an asset would not be terminated due to their participation in a strike and those who are not particularly valued will be let go. I work in private practice. My performance matters. If I don’t perform I’m let go. If I don’t like my pay or conditions I leave and find more favourable terms elsewhere. If enough people left, the supply of staff would be low such that the pay etc would increase to bring people back. Basic economics really. Economics works when you have shareholders , free trade , free movement etc , it doesn’t work when you have a government ideologically opposed to the nhs and free healthcare " What do you think would happen if all the doctors and nurses and support staff packed up and left (having given notice) ? | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions." Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you. | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you."  
Or could it be you have no idea? | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you." Oh I'm not ignorant, you're accusing others of not being aware of something you refuse to say openly  | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?"Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them."You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them."Who said I have bias? You're on an open forum using baseless emotional language to try to win a debate. All I'm asking is what conditions or workload you have an issue with. | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
Who said I have bias?
You're on an open forum using baseless emotional language to try to win a debate.
All I'm asking is what conditions or workload you have an issue with."I couldn’t agree more. The underlying argument is likely untenable which is why it remains unparticularised | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them "Let me explain it to you like this, maybe you might understand. Debating a position gives it legitimacy and validity. Let me give you some examples. Should society kill off old people as they are a drain on society? What about the disabled or mentally ill? Debating that give it a legitimacy. Or should stupid people be kept off the internet? Again debating it, gives it legitimacy. So the question shouldn't be 'should junior doctors be allowed to strike' It should be 'why question that right' | |||
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" Is it about pay or about work conditions?
Broadly, and speaking as someone quite experienced in industrial relations and employment law, all of the current disputes are about both; but it’s complicated.
The laws in this country relating to industrial action are massively prescriptive.
You cannot strike because of potential unwelcome changes to workplace conditions of service. You cannot necessarily even strike after the imposition of said changes.
You can, however, having jumped through a significant number of hoops, strike over pay.
So, in answer to your question; officially the strike is over pay.
Unofficially it’s also over working conditions and changes employers seek to simply impose rather than negotiate towards, and the pay issue provides the workforce (through their union) the opportunity to protest/negotiate those conditions.
If the current government had been even half as clever as they think they are, they would have awarded all the public sector workers an RPI payrise, which would have removed the legal basis for the strikes overnight.
So unofficially they are breaking the rules. Sack them, all they do is wander round hospitals at snails pace with a clip board deciding who can go home, nurses and real doctors do the actual work
...I actually have no words... I have a friend who is training to be a doctor and you couldn't be any further from the truth if you tried.....
You mean he’s a student ?
Yes they don’t get the clipboards just yet , just alcohol and parties still. You may want to warn them to start learning to say (In good English) “you go home now!’ And how to carry a clipboard
"Yes... he's about to go into 2nd year... speaks perfect English, you know since he is English....your ignorance truly astounds me | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them
Let me explain it to you like this, maybe you might understand.
Debating a position gives it legitimacy and validity. Let me give you some examples. Should society kill off old people as they are a drain on society? What about the disabled or mentally ill?
Debating that give it a legitimacy.
Or should stupid people be kept off the internet? Again debating it, gives it legitimacy.
So the question shouldn't be 'should junior doctors be allowed to strike' It should be 'why question that right'"Still not explained about their workload and conditions I'd like to know how they are so bad?? | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them
Let me explain it to you like this, maybe you might understand.
Debating a position gives it legitimacy and validity. Let me give you some examples. Should society kill off old people as they are a drain on society? What about the disabled or mentally ill?
Debating that give it a legitimacy.
Or should stupid people be kept off the internet? Again debating it, gives it legitimacy.
So the question shouldn't be 'should junior doctors be allowed to strike' It should be 'why question that right'
Still not explained about their workload and conditions I'd like to know how they are so bad??"Unfortunately, this is fairly standard around here. You can wait over here with me, think we'll be waiting a while though | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them
Let me explain it to you like this, maybe you might understand.
Debating a position gives it legitimacy and validity. Let me give you some examples. Should society kill off old people as they are a drain on society? What about the disabled or mentally ill?
Debating that give it a legitimacy.
Or should stupid people be kept off the internet? Again debating it, gives it legitimacy.
So the question shouldn't be 'should junior doctors be allowed to strike' It should be 'why question that right'
Still not explained about their workload and conditions I'd like to know how they are so bad??
Unfortunately, this is fairly standard around here.
You can wait over here with me, think we'll be waiting a while though "Shall I make us a cuppa while we wait. Tea or coffee? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them
Let me explain it to you like this, maybe you might understand.
Debating a position gives it legitimacy and validity. Let me give you some examples. Should society kill off old people as they are a drain on society? What about the disabled or mentally ill?
Debating that give it a legitimacy.
Or should stupid people be kept off the internet? Again debating it, gives it legitimacy.
So the question shouldn't be 'should junior doctors be allowed to strike' It should be 'why question that right'
Still not explained about their workload and conditions I'd like to know how they are so bad??
Unfortunately, this is fairly standard around here.
You can wait over here with me, think we'll be waiting a while though
Shall I make us a cuppa while we wait. Tea or coffee?"Ooo. I love a coffee but a nice cup of Yorkshire Tea fixes everything | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them
Let me explain it to you like this, maybe you might understand.
Debating a position gives it legitimacy and validity. Let me give you some examples. Should society kill off old people as they are a drain on society? What about the disabled or mentally ill?
Debating that give it a legitimacy.
Or should stupid people be kept off the internet? Again debating it, gives it legitimacy.
So the question shouldn't be 'should junior doctors be allowed to strike' It should be 'why question that right'
Still not explained about their workload and conditions I'd like to know how they are so bad??
Unfortunately, this is fairly standard around here.
You can wait over here with me, think we'll be waiting a while though
Shall I make us a cuppa while we wait. Tea or coffee?
Ooo. I love a coffee but a nice cup of Yorkshire Tea fixes everything "
Kettle is on | |||
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"My personal opinion - Should they have the right? Yes. Should they be striking? No. Junior doctors get paid really well. Better than most of us. They are also still training. They’ll get paid absolutely tons once that training is completed. Also, a particularly personal point for me - I have been seriously misdiagnosed by a junior doctor in A&E, which led to a life threatening complication. That demonstrated to me that Junior doctors aren’t experienced enough to warrant the pay they are demanding. Nor are they experienced enough to demand a change in conditions etc when they’ve barely worked themselves. They should be focussing on their careers and improving things for patients. Also thirdly - aren’t the the same people that say save the NHS now the ones that are trying to drain it of cash? Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... " You just said they are on the same hourly rate as you which is not enough because of the hours they work. Working too many hours for their money would erode hourly equivalent. Meaning its clearly a much better wage than yours to begin with, partially to compensate for those long hours. | |||
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" I'm not trying to pretend anything. 32k would see someone take home 2150 per month. Rent on a 1 bed flat which I've just found is 950. That leaves 1200. That a damn sight more than plenty of people. And let's not forget that's for a first year. It may shock you to learn that some doctors have families. A 3-bedroom house in Slough starts at £1600 for rent only. " It may shock you to learn that all across the country, and across all industries, households have 2 parents working to afford to have families. Why are we suddenly benchmarking a single salary as a family income | |||
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"My personal opinion - Should they have the right? Yes. Should they be striking? No. Junior doctors get paid really well. Better than most of us. They are also still training. They’ll get paid absolutely tons once that training is completed. Also, a particularly personal point for me - I have been seriously misdiagnosed by a junior doctor in A&E, which led to a life threatening complication. That demonstrated to me that Junior doctors aren’t experienced enough to warrant the pay they are demanding. Nor are they experienced enough to demand a change in conditions etc when they’ve barely worked themselves. They should be focussing on their careers and improving things for patients. Also thirdly - aren’t the the same people that say save the NHS now the ones that are trying to drain it of cash? Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... You just said they are on the same hourly rate as you which is not enough because of the hours they work. Working too many hours for their money would erode hourly equivalent. Meaning its clearly a much better wage than yours to begin with, partially to compensate for those long hours. " Not really, my salary is based on 34 hours per week, plus I am a lot less skilled than they are, I don't have a degree...and my hours are fixed, no on call etc ... not to mention having to put up with p*ssed up members of the general public on a Saturday night, being sworn at assaulted etc. If you haven’t read it I suggest reading Adam Kays This is going to hurt.... | |||
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"My personal opinion - Should they have the right? Yes. Should they be striking? No. Junior doctors get paid really well. Better than most of us. They are also still training. They’ll get paid absolutely tons once that training is completed. Also, a particularly personal point for me - I have been seriously misdiagnosed by a junior doctor in A&E, which led to a life threatening complication. That demonstrated to me that Junior doctors aren’t experienced enough to warrant the pay they are demanding. Nor are they experienced enough to demand a change in conditions etc when they’ve barely worked themselves. They should be focussing on their careers and improving things for patients. Also thirdly - aren’t the the same people that say save the NHS now the ones that are trying to drain it of cash? Junior doctors do NOT get paid really well, they are on or around the same hourly rate as me as a pharmacy technician... which considering what they have to do, the hours they work etc, is not nearly enough... You just said they are on the same hourly rate as you which is not enough because of the hours they work. Working too many hours for their money would erode hourly equivalent. Meaning its clearly a much better wage than yours to begin with, partially to compensate for those long hours. Not really, my salary is based on 34 hours per week, plus I am a lot less skilled than they are, I don't have a degree...and my hours are fixed, no on call etc ... not to mention having to put up with p*ssed up members of the general public on a Saturday night, being sworn at assaulted etc. If you haven’t read it I suggest reading Adam Kays This is going to hurt...." None of that changes the fact that to be on a similar hourly rate your salary has been divided by less hours than theirs, so their base salary is higher to begin with. Or the fact that they already get overtime payments for the additional hours. What you are really saying is you would rather do your job and you think you get better value for the effort required. Which is fine. But its also about as relevant as me saying i would rather work a 3 day week in finance than a 5 day week as a bricklayer for a roughly similar hourly rate. Its a personal career choice and an entirely different take home pay number - comparing apples and oranges | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them
Let me explain it to you like this, maybe you might understand.
Debating a position gives it legitimacy and validity. Let me give you some examples. Should society kill off old people as they are a drain on society? What about the disabled or mentally ill?
Debating that give it a legitimacy.
Or should stupid people be kept off the internet? Again debating it, gives it legitimacy.
So the question shouldn't be 'should junior doctors be allowed to strike' It should be 'why question that right'
Still not explained about their workload and conditions I'd like to know how they are so bad??"Have you tried asking someone in the field? Go down and have a chat on the picket line, they’d be happy to explain it. | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them
Let me explain it to you like this, maybe you might understand.
Debating a position gives it legitimacy and validity. Let me give you some examples. Should society kill off old people as they are a drain on society? What about the disabled or mentally ill?
Debating that give it a legitimacy.
Or should stupid people be kept off the internet? Again debating it, gives it legitimacy.
So the question shouldn't be 'should junior doctors be allowed to strike' It should be 'why question that right'
Still not explained about their workload and conditions I'd like to know how they are so bad??
Have you tried asking someone in the field? Go down and have a chat on the picket line, they’d be happy to explain it."I'd like you to explain it, you posted what you think, now you explain it please | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them
Let me explain it to you like this, maybe you might understand.
Debating a position gives it legitimacy and validity. Let me give you some examples. Should society kill off old people as they are a drain on society? What about the disabled or mentally ill?
Debating that give it a legitimacy.
Or should stupid people be kept off the internet? Again debating it, gives it legitimacy.
So the question shouldn't be 'should junior doctors be allowed to strike' It should be 'why question that right'
Still not explained about their workload and conditions I'd like to know how they are so bad??
Have you tried asking someone in the field? Go down and have a chat on the picket line, they’d be happy to explain it."You know full well its OK to ask someone to explain their position during debate. | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them
Let me explain it to you like this, maybe you might understand.
Debating a position gives it legitimacy and validity. Let me give you some examples. Should society kill off old people as they are a drain on society? What about the disabled or mentally ill?
Debating that give it a legitimacy.
Or should stupid people be kept off the internet? Again debating it, gives it legitimacy.
So the question shouldn't be 'should junior doctors be allowed to strike' It should be 'why question that right'
Still not explained about their workload and conditions I'd like to know how they are so bad??
Have you tried asking someone in the field? Go down and have a chat on the picket line, they’d be happy to explain it.
I'd like you to explain it, you posted what you think, now you explain it please "I’ve not ousted anything about junior doctors conditions (although I’ve been told they’re pretty grim, hard work, few breaks, terrible rest patterns, abuse from the public etc) I’m simply pointing out that if you want to know just how bad it is, they’ll happily answer your questions if you ask them. | |||
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"If people had any idea of their workload and conditions, this wouldn't even be a question. But hey, wanna see my complete lack of surprise. Give us a really really brief rundown of junior doctors workload and conditions. Nope it's not my place to compensate for your ignorance. That's on you.
Or could it be you have no idea?
Could be, but if someone has all the resources in the world at their fingertip and can't or won't use to educate themselves other than confirm their own biases, then don't expect me to do it for them.
You posted your beliefs but now refusing to explain them
Let me explain it to you like this, maybe you might understand.
Debating a position gives it legitimacy and validity. Let me give you some examples. Should society kill off old people as they are a drain on society? What about the disabled or mentally ill?
Debating that give it a legitimacy.
Or should stupid people be kept off the internet? Again debating it, gives it legitimacy.
So the question shouldn't be 'should junior doctors be allowed to strike' It should be 'why question that right'
Still not explained about their workload and conditions I'd like to know how they are so bad??
Have you tried asking someone in the field? Go down and have a chat on the picket line, they’d be happy to explain it.
I'd like you to explain it, you posted what you think, now you explain it please
I’ve not ousted anything about junior doctors conditions (although I’ve been told they’re pretty grim, hard work, few breaks, terrible rest patterns, abuse from the public etc)
I’m simply pointing out that if you want to know just how bad it is, they’ll happily answer your questions if you ask them. "So are they striking about those conditions or pay? And if they get what they want, the conditions will be okay then?? | |||
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"Having heard those particular gripes I don’t see how it is fundamentally different to many professions " How many professions are fundamentally about keeping people alive and healthy? | |||
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"Having heard those particular gripes I don’t see how it is fundamentally different to many professions How many professions are fundamentally about keeping people alive and healthy?" It isn’t the point though is it? The fact of the matter is that they knew what they were getting themselves into when they chose this career. The first few years of gruelling shift work pave the way to a career which is absent of this (unless they choose it). They are investing in their own future. There is a significant financial investment in their training. This is a job and one they have chosen | |||
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"Having heard those particular gripes I don’t see how it is fundamentally different to many professions How many professions are fundamentally about keeping people alive and healthy? It isn’t the point though is it? The fact of the matter is that they knew what they were getting themselves into when they chose this career. The first few years of gruelling shift work pave the way to a career which is absent of this (unless they choose it). They are investing in their own future. There is a significant financial investment in their training. This is a job and one they have chosen " Yet again junior doctors are essentially all doctors that are not GPs or consultants. So a junior can have 9 or 10 years experience working. It's not just a few years of gruelling work, it lasts years and you have little control over your life. Consultant life is an improvement, but also speciality depending. | |||
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"Having heard those particular gripes I don’t see how it is fundamentally different to many professions How many professions are fundamentally about keeping people alive and healthy? It isn’t the point though is it? The fact of the matter is that they knew what they were getting themselves into when they chose this career. The first few years of gruelling shift work pave the way to a career which is absent of this (unless they choose it). They are investing in their own future. There is a significant financial investment in their training. This is a job and one they have chosen Yet again junior doctors are essentially all doctors that are not GPs or consultants. So a junior can have 9 or 10 years experience working. It's not just a few years of gruelling work, it lasts years and you have little control over your life. Consultant life is an improvement, but also speciality depending. " They chose it | |||
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"Having heard those particular gripes I don’t see how it is fundamentally different to many professions How many professions are fundamentally about keeping people alive and healthy? It isn’t the point though is it? The fact of the matter is that they knew what they were getting themselves into when they chose this career. The first few years of gruelling shift work pave the way to a career which is absent of this (unless they choose it). They are investing in their own future. There is a significant financial investment in their training. This is a job and one they have chosen Yet again junior doctors are essentially all doctors that are not GPs or consultants. So a junior can have 9 or 10 years experience working. It's not just a few years of gruelling work, it lasts years and you have little control over your life. Consultant life is an improvement, but also speciality depending. They chose it " Well based on that logic then stuff in a and e should be able to chuck out patients who got pissed and injured themselves... you did it to yourself.... then maybe the working conditions in the emergency department wouldn't be so shit... | |||
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"Junior doctors in england will strike for five consecutive days in july and it is the longest walkout in nhs history, with up to 47,600 members doing it. The strike is from 13th to 18th july and of course thy should be able to strike, but I think that there is a fine line between sectors that are saving lives as they are putting lives at risk, by not being able to attend to them. What is your view on it and why are they striking? Is it about pay or about work conditions? "Doctors should be able to act like any other professional. The problem is that because we have a socialist health system, ironically we are held to ransom by those who feel so disenfranchised by the system that guarantees their employment. Wouldn’t it be nice for us to choose which doctor and health provider to use. Reduce our tax and allow us to pay for our own health insurance and so have choice which doctor to use and also take some responsibility for our personal health decisions. Doctors can then determine competitive pricing for their services. | |||
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"Having heard those particular gripes I don’t see how it is fundamentally different to many professions How many professions are fundamentally about keeping people alive and healthy? It isn’t the point though is it? The fact of the matter is that they knew what they were getting themselves into when they chose this career. The first few years of gruelling shift work pave the way to a career which is absent of this (unless they choose it). They are investing in their own future. There is a significant financial investment in their training. This is a job and one they have chosen Yet again junior doctors are essentially all doctors that are not GPs or consultants. So a junior can have 9 or 10 years experience working. It's not just a few years of gruelling work, it lasts years and you have little control over your life. Consultant life is an improvement, but also speciality depending. They chose it Well based on that logic then stuff in a and e should be able to chuck out patients who got pissed and injured themselves... you did it to yourself.... then maybe the working conditions in the emergency department wouldn't be so shit... " The staff in A&E should be able to know that pissed people will pay for their foolishness and we will sleep easier knowing that our tax burden will not be growing to offset dumb people’s life choices. I would add some other cosmetic surgeries and religious folly’s that we are forced to accept are funded from the public purse. | |||
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"Yes. Next question?" ^ | |||
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"Armed forces are not allowed to strike, hence the low pay rise. I’m a teacher I never go on strike, I don’t think it’s fair on the kids. As a senior teacher I’m very well paid, get awesome holidays an unmatched pension and excellent working conditions. Am I happy with 6.6%? More than. I was happy before. Add into that my sickness benefit package of six months full pay then six months half pay, I don’t think we do bad. " Edit 6.5% | |||
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"Junior doctors in england will strike for five consecutive days in july and it is the longest walkout in nhs history, with up to 47,600 members doing it. The strike is from 13th to 18th july and of course thy should be able to strike, but I think that there is a fine line between sectors that are saving lives as they are putting lives at risk, by not being able to attend to them. What is your view on it and why are they striking? Is it about pay or about work conditions?
Doctors should be able to act like any other professional. The problem is that because we have a socialist health system, ironically we are held to ransom by those who feel so disenfranchised by the system that guarantees their employment.
Wouldn’t it be nice for us to choose which doctor and health provider to use. Reduce our tax and allow us to pay for our own health insurance and so have choice which doctor to use and also take some responsibility for our personal health decisions.
Doctors can then determine competitive pricing for their services."That’s fine until you end up like the USA with people refusing ambulances in case they end up bankrupt. We should look at the French or German healthcare systems if we want to change anything. | |||
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"Junior doctors in england will strike for five consecutive days in july and it is the longest walkout in nhs history, with up to 47,600 members doing it. The strike is from 13th to 18th july and of course thy should be able to strike, but I think that there is a fine line between sectors that are saving lives as they are putting lives at risk, by not being able to attend to them. What is your view on it and why are they striking? Is it about pay or about work conditions?
Doctors should be able to act like any other professional. The problem is that because we have a socialist health system, ironically we are held to ransom by those who feel so disenfranchised by the system that guarantees their employment.
Wouldn’t it be nice for us to choose which doctor and health provider to use. Reduce our tax and allow us to pay for our own health insurance and so have choice which doctor to use and also take some responsibility for our personal health decisions.
Doctors can then determine competitive pricing for their services.
That’s fine until you end up like the USA with people refusing ambulances in case they end up bankrupt.
We should look at the French or German healthcare systems if we want to change anything. "I know plenty of people that used ambulances here. Not a single one is bankrupt. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Junior doctors in england will strike for five consecutive days in july and it is the longest walkout in nhs history, with up to 47,600 members doing it. The strike is from 13th to 18th july and of course thy should be able to strike, but I think that there is a fine line between sectors that are saving lives as they are putting lives at risk, by not being able to attend to them. What is your view on it and why are they striking? Is it about pay or about work conditions?
Doctors should be able to act like any other professional. The problem is that because we have a socialist health system, ironically we are held to ransom by those who feel so disenfranchised by the system that guarantees their employment.
Wouldn’t it be nice for us to choose which doctor and health provider to use. Reduce our tax and allow us to pay for our own health insurance and so have choice which doctor to use and also take some responsibility for our personal health decisions.
Doctors can then determine competitive pricing for their services.
That’s fine until you end up like the USA with people refusing ambulances in case they end up bankrupt.
We should look at the French or German healthcare systems if we want to change anything. I know plenty of people that used ambulances here. Not a single one is bankrupt. "Anecdote is not data. The US healthcare system is responsible for bankrupting people. You may not like that fact, but it remains true. | |||
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