FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Sex, gender

Sex, gender

By *melie LAL OP Woman over a year ago

Peterborough

Gender is quite simply what you identify as and others should respect that identification.

Sex, excuse the pun, is a stickier subject. I saw on the news that trans representatives at Oxford uni wanted to stop the debate on the subject when the main speaker appears to be dogmatic that sex cannot be changed.

What are your views on sex regarding medical identification? How do we identify/categorise sex.

Should the debate go ahead?

I'm a woman, a CIS woman. Let's remain respectful please.

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By *icassolifelikeMan over a year ago

Luton

Everyone has an opinion.

Personally, you do you, and I’ll do me.

If someone wants to identify as a hermaphrodite gibbon, then as long it doesn’t affect my pursuit of happiness, fill your boots.

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By *melie LAL OP Woman over a year ago

Peterborough

Professor Kathleen Stock is the speaker.

Online journalists are concentrating on the gender side of the things whereas on the BBC news, it was talking about (medical/biological) sex.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"Gender is quite simply what you identify as and others should respect that identification.

What are your views on sex regarding medical identification? How do we identify/categorise sex.

Should the debate go ahead?

I'm a woman, a CIS woman. Let's remain respectful please."

CIS is an invention of attention seeking people that want to put everybody in a box to enhance their percieved identity.

You are a Woman, that's it. We are men & women, anything else is what someone pretends to be & wants the rest of us to join in.

I won't but people pretending does me no harm so I wish them no ill will. Just won't call a man a woman or vice versa.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Regardless of your thoughts/opinions we should be allowed to debate it without being closed down because an opinion might cause someone to feel upset.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Gender is quite simply what you identify as and others should respect that identification.

What are your views on sex regarding medical identification? How do we identify/categorise sex.

Should the debate go ahead?

I'm a woman, a CIS woman. Let's remain respectful please.

CIS is an invention of attention seeking people that want to put everybody in a box to enhance their percieved identity.

You are a Woman, that's it. We are men & women, anything else is what someone pretends to be & wants the rest of us to join in.

I won't but people pretending does me no harm so I wish them no ill will. Just won't call a man a woman or vice versa."

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think I have followed but not sure I’ve followed well. My thoughts are that people should be able to change their biological sex (as much as science currently allows) to match their gender identity if they wish to. But I also am of the belief that gender can be performed in so many ways that it does not always require biological change. If that makes sense?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"CIS is an invention of attention seeking people that want to put everybody in a box to enhance their percieved identity.

You are a Woman, that's it. We are men & women, anything else is what someone pretends to be & wants the rest of us to join in.

I won't but people pretending does me no harm so I wish them no ill will. Just won't call a man a woman or vice versa."

I disagree that it’s the invention of people seeking attention and I think if you wish them no ill will and they do you no harm, then you should call them by the pronouns they wish you to.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This is a very new to most people so there is a huge amount to controversy around the subject.

Everyone has the right to believe what ever they want, they can identify as what ever they want, but you also have to respect others views and that they do not have to agree with you.

Medical procedures are cosmetic surgery to make you feel more like the sex you want to be, but biology can not be changed.

Be who and what you want to be but respect others beliefs too.

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By *mf123Man over a year ago

with one foot out the door

I miss the 90s when the world was less confusing

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Where some people are concerned and want to debate is the opening up of safe spaces where people with vaginas who are the victims of sexual assault and voilence at the hands of people with penis's will have to share that safe space with people with a penis based on self identification.

The challenge is that we need to allow people to be their authentic selves free from abuse and discrimination without reducing the rights of other vulnerable groups to safe spaces or in the most controversial discussions reducing physical fairness in sport for one group. I am not exactly sure what my view is I need the opportunity ity to listen to all sides and so sniffling discussion is not the way.

The answer is to listen with compassion and kindness and see if we can find a way forward as there is not an absolute right view here ... we have to be able to debate and hear differing views and understand.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I miss the 90s when the world was less confusing"

Didn’t people in the 90s believe the world was gonna end in 2000 or something

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By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"Gender is quite simply what you identify as and others should respect that identification.

What are your views on sex regarding medical identification? How do we identify/categorise sex.

Should the debate go ahead?

I'm a woman, a CIS woman. Let's remain respectful please.

CIS is an invention of attention seeking people that want to put everybody in a box to enhance their percieved identity.

You are a Woman, that's it. We are men & women, anything else is what someone pretends to be & wants the rest of us to join in.

I won't but people pretending does me no harm so I wish them no ill will. Just won't call a man a woman or vice versa."

The fact that you do not understand and are quite possibly not open to learn does not make this fact.

You do not live this life that others do and I do not live it.

That does not make our take on it correct.

Gender is a societal construct and do has far more nuance to it than just male and female.

Biologically, it is already proven that there are more than just two simple sexes occurring as there are intersex born and others that are developed Biologically different.

We cannot know what this is like unless it is in our experiences.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think I have followed but not sure I’ve followed well. My thoughts are that people should be able to change their biological sex (as much as science currently allows) to match their gender identity if they wish to. But I also am of the belief that gender can be performed in so many ways that it does not always require biological change. If that makes sense?"

Quite a subtle (and well made) point. But surely the disruption of gender archetypes is very separate/different to a denial of biological sex.

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By *ezebel100Woman over a year ago

Birmingham

I truly am not being disrespectful but there are two sexes male and female and no matter how many surgeries a person has you can't turn one 100% into the other.

How people identify is something different and I will respect that.

It's got to something when the very definition of what is a woman is being eradicated.

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By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"This is a very new to most people so there is a huge amount to controversy around the subject.

Everyone has the right to believe what ever they want, they can identify as what ever they want, but you also have to respect others views and that they do not have to agree with you.

Medical procedures are cosmetic surgery to make you feel more like the sex you want to be, but biology can not be changed.

Be who and what you want to be but respect others beliefs too."

I personally have two friends born intersex. They have both biological sexes in evidence and this is clinically proven.

They would not need cosmetic surgery to look or have biologiaspects of either sex.

It's not a huge stretch to understand thst there could be many others with degrees of these conditions( for want of a better term)

This is the problem with your argument.

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By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"I truly am not being disrespectful but there are two sexes male and female and no matter how many surgeries a person has you can't turn one 100% into the other.

How people identify is something different and I will respect that.

It's got to something when the very definition of what is a woman is being eradicated.

Please explain my two friends mentioned above using your very simplistic view?

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By *esmond and Molly JonesCouple over a year ago

Watford

"I saw on the news that trans representatives at Oxford uni wanted to stop the debate on the subject when the main speaker appears to be dogmatic that sex cannot be changed.

What are your views on sex regarding medical identification? How do we identify/categorise sex.

Should the debate go ahead?

I'm a woman, a CIS woman. Let's remain respectful please."

No, you are a 'woman'. No prefix needed or required. However, somebody born male and identifying as female DOES need a prefix, and that is 'trans'. I'm a man; not a 'something man'.

The debate should certainly go ahead. Biology doesn't stop existing just because a bunch of people shout somebody down. The shouting down tactic is the only one these activists want to employ. Why can't they engage in debate, rather than blow whistles, shout & drown out speakers, and bang drums?

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By *eviant KnightMan over a year ago

Norton

"Where some people are concerned and want to debate is the opening up of safe spaces where people with vaginas who are the victims of sexual assault and voilence at the hands of people with penis's will have to share that safe space with people with a penis based on self identification.

Are there any other safe spaces you are referring to here beyond bathrooms and changing rooms? Do you think these areas could be redesigned to allow people to still feel safe? Would individual locking cubicles with their own sinks etc be a practical solution to avoid people feeling vulnerable in those spaces?

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By *nightsoftheCoffeeTableCouple over a year ago

Leeds

People can be whatever or whoever they wish to identify as, I think it's great for the people who have always felt their assigned gender didn't fit, however I'm a woman, not a cis woman, just a woman, I don't agree with people throwing their labels on me.

They do them, I do me.

Mrs

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I saw on the news that trans representatives at Oxford uni wanted to stop the debate on the subject when the main speaker appears to be dogmatic that sex cannot be changed.

What are your views on sex regarding medical identification? How do we identify/categorise sex.

Should the debate go ahead?

I'm a woman, a CIS woman. Let's remain respectful please.

No, you are a 'woman'. No prefix needed or required. However, somebody born male and identifying as female DOES need a prefix, and that is 'trans'. I'm a man; not a 'something man'.

Your post closes debate then you ask why they don’t engage? So you are allowed your hardened position but they aren’t?

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By *esmond and Molly JonesCouple over a year ago

Watford

Debate means to hear both sides of an issue, not just the one side.

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By *lik and PaulCouple over a year ago

Flagrante

If a pressure group wants to stop a debate happening they've already lost the argument in my opinion. Have a debate, be open minded and be prepared to change your views.

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By *esmond and Molly JonesCouple over a year ago

Watford

I don't have a hardened position. I am open minded to any factual evidence that might convince me I'm wrong.

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By *ycanNightsMan over a year ago

Workington

"Gender is quite simply what you identify as and others should respect that identification.

What are your views on sex regarding medical identification? How do we identify/categorise sex.

Should the debate go ahead?

I'm a woman, a CIS woman. Let's remain respectful please."

I will never understand why people get fired up about this subject.

I really don't care about what someone decides is their gender and what they choose to do about. It is their business. And I will give them the same amount of respect I would anyone else

I will address them with any pronouns they wish to addressed by.

I don't think it's that complicated.

However should the talk go ahead...yes I believe in free speech. But also the right to protest...she can come with her opinion, but she can't expect that people will not have something to say about what she knows is a contentious issue without some comeback.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I was not referring to bathrooms or changing rooms. I have been to plenty of unisex ones. I don't see the issue is there.

Rape and domestic violence refuges though are currently protected safe spaces which self identification could impact if not thought through carefully. There also needs to be careful thought about prisons where offenders have a known history of violence and sexual assault and where they are best place to keep them and others safe.

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By *ezebel100Woman over a year ago

Birmingham

Public bathrooms definitely could be designed so that the sink is in with the toilet. Changing rooms too, would cost more which may be a stumbling block.

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By *lansmanMan over a year ago

Sheffield

"This is a very new to most people so there is a huge amount to controversy around the subject.

Everyone has the right to believe what ever they want, they can identify as what ever they want, but you also have to respect others views and that they do not have to agree with you.

Medical procedures are cosmetic surgery to make you feel more like the sex you want to be, but biology can not be changed.

Be who and what you want to be but respect others beliefs too.

I personally have two friends born intersex. They have both biological sexes in evidence and this is clinically proven.

They would not need cosmetic surgery to look or have biologiaspects of either sex.

It's not a huge stretch to understand thst there could be many others with degrees of these conditions( for want of a better term)

This is the problem with your argument.

Knowing 2 intersex people is an Astonishing coincidence given the rarity of the condition . Its also a little disingenuous to lump them in with the trans debate.

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By *melie LAL OP Woman over a year ago

Peterborough

"...

Biologically, it is already proven that there are more than just two simple sexes occurring as there are intersex born and others that are developed Biologically different...

That paragraph raises the question how do we define sex when there are anomalies. Irrelevant to how many X chromosomes a person has, if they have one Y, they are male, no Y = female. Bringing us back to two sexes. This is what we cannot change medically.

However, medical and legal advances mean we can change sex (outwardly, hormonally and in law).

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Quite a subtle (and well made) point. But surely the disruption of gender archetypes is very separate/different to a denial of biological sex. "

Yes I see now how they’re very different. I think my point should end before the ‘but’ lol

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By *esmond and Molly JonesCouple over a year ago

Watford

Knowing 2 intersex people is an Astonishing coincidence given the rarity of the condition . Its also a little disingenuous to lump them in with the trans debate. "

I hear this argument all the time. Simply because some people are born with a genetic condition that makes their genitalia indeterminate and are therefore intersex, that is a rarity and has nothing to do with male born people self identifying as female. It's a straw man argument.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Quite a subtle (and well made) point. But surely the disruption of gender archetypes is very separate/different to a denial of biological sex.

Yes I see now how they’re very different. I think my point should end before the ‘but’ lol "

It was after the ‘but’ that your point got interesting (to me at least)

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By *otSoPoshWoman over a year ago

In a ball gown because that's how we roll in N. Devon

The whole thing gives me a headache.

Debate should always be encouraged, as should open mindedness and rational and polite discourse.

As for the sex, or gender, whichever is being debated, debate... all we can do as people is refer to others in the best way we know how given the information we have at the time. If someone presents as female I will refer to them thus, ditto male. And if they don't like that, they can let me know. And I shall alter how I refer to them (as much as I can, I'm very old and sometimes forget... but if that happens I'll apologise). That's being respectful.

I don't believe that the sex of a person can be changed, because my belief is that sex is determined at a chromosomal level. I do believe that the outer packaging can and should be changed if that is the desire of the individual. So the presenting sex, I would say. And I realise it doesn't tend to be something a person would do on a whim (not least because of red tape and hoops to jump through) but desire felt like the right word there so I used it.

I also object to being referred to as a CIS woman. I don't like labels and while I appreciate others do and they can be useful in certain situations, I don't want to be tagged. Thanks.

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By *hrista BellendWoman over a year ago

surrounded by twinkly lights

Biologically, it is already proven that there are more than just two simple sexes occurring as there are intersex born and others that are developed Biologically different.

Being born with a slightly different sexual genetic makeup than simple male and female, doesn't make the existence of a new sex. It's just males and females with a few different genes

All people who are born with syndromes for instance, yes they have a different genetic make up to others. but they are still classed as male and female humans. Not a new species....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Public bathrooms definitely could be designed so that the sink is in with the toilet. Changing rooms too, would cost more which may be a stumbling block."

My local swimming pool has unisex changing rooms with individual locking cubicles and unisex showers pool side ... I never feel awkward or unease. Primary local to me has female, male and unisex areas of their changing rooms.

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By *andyfloss2000Woman over a year ago

ashford

Imo yes sex can be changed with the appropriate operation x

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By *melie LAL OP Woman over a year ago

Peterborough

"People can be whatever or whoever they wish to identify as, I think it's great for the people who have always felt their assigned gender didn't fit, however I'm a woman, not a cis woman, just a woman, I don't agree with people throwing their labels on me.

They do them, I do me.

Mrs "

So you don't want to be a person with a vagina? Personally, I think that takes things too far (and that's just an opinion).

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By *lansmanMan over a year ago

Sheffield

Knowing 2 intersex people is an Astonishing coincidence given the rarity of the condition . Its also a little disingenuous to lump them in with the trans debate.

The trans argument is that a person's brain doesn't match the body , feelings that are fluid and change ..Clearly intersex people are facing a different dilemma . There bodies are suffering from a genetic disorder.

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By *argaret James200TV/TS over a year ago

Birmingham

"Gender is quite simply what you identify as and others should respect that identification.

What are your views on sex regarding medical identification? How do we identify/categorise sex.

Should the debate go ahead?

I'm a woman, a CIS woman. Let's remain respectful please."

Well, "trans women don't have female organs" (funny you dont hear about women who become trans men and there are quite a few), that's the gist of what anti trans people argue but if that's so any CIS woman that has bilateral breasts removed (for whatever reason) and has a hysterectomy would have the same body makeup as a trans woman who has had all her male specific organs removed, how do you distinguish between the two, chromosomes ?. You would be categorising them on what they no longer have, hence the big debate you are what you were born even if your no longer that same person. I think the debate should be about femininity and masculinity there are many effeminite men there are also many masculine women, who has the right to condem either for wanting to feel at ease in their preferred role even if its not the one given at birth. We as a species hold freedom as most high, while trying to make others conform to our norms, there will always be someone out there who opposes anything new, anything that gives others happiness.

We are already mapping the human genome, splicing DNA, creating and manipulating life, if we ever find a way of altering DNA from one gender to another how would you tell who is who and would it matter. Who you are at heart is not distinguished by what clothes you wear or which toilet you piss in. I know at least three trans women that even I can't believe started out as men and the people around them don't know (why should they know) a child murderer can legally walk the streets having served their time and nobody knows but a trans person is condemned before they leave the door EVERY day, what a society we live in ?.

Rant over and need a snooze Zzzzz.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's an opinion which matters not so please don't have a go peeps, I mean no disrespect.

Two genders: Male (men) & Female (women)

Whilst some of us may look very passable all dolled up, some even having boob jobs, hormone therapy and taking cock up our arse doesn't necessarily make us TVs/TGs/CDs a real woman. Make believe all you want - cannot change the simple fact at birth we are born with either a cock making us a male or vagina making us a female.

Also, the risk to benefit ratio is unclear and potentially worrisome for transgender woman to get a uterus transplantation for reproductive purposes for the purpose of menstruation and enhanced gender alignment.

Yet, many undertake this journey with transformation with a desire to change their initial identity; and we have to respect their wishes (& somewhat very much admire them for their determination to embarking on this very difficult journey).

In truth, I really couldn't care less about labelling peeps. I like all be it a man, woman, TG, TV, CD, etc. Having had awesome times with all and still do. Look at the person and their behaviour to see them as a decent human being, that's what's important.

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By *andyfloss2000Woman over a year ago

ashford

And very happy to b called a cis woman x

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By *eviant KnightMan over a year ago

Norton

Public bathrooms definitely could be designed so that the sink is in with the toilet. Changing rooms too, would cost more which may be a stumbling block.

So a list of places where gender/sex identification is important to prevent people feeling uneasy

Bathrooms/changing rooms - sounds like these can be designed correctly to prevent this

Rape/domestic violence refuge - I am no expert on these but with some thought in design hopefully these can be made safe for those that need them too

Prisons - tricky one,

Professional sport- again tricky

Are there any other situations where someone's gender/sex is actually important?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"And very happy to b called a cis woman x"

Me2, CIS man

Albeit, doesn't stop me dolling up and looking all passable to service plenty big dicks. What does really surprise me is how many so called straight guys enjoy fucking a dirty lil SLUT like me.

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By *melie LAL OP Woman over a year ago

Peterborough

"It's an opinion which matters not so please don't have a go peeps, I mean no disrespect.

Two genders: Male (men) & Female (women)

Absolutely at that last sentence. However, as a healthcare professional, I'm concerned we may have medical issues arising from hormonal changes and even from data confidentiality in connection with consent (or not) the sharing of information.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It's an opinion which matters not so please don't have a go peeps, I mean no disrespect.

Two genders: Male (men) & Female (women)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Public bathrooms definitely could be designed so that the sink is in with the toilet. Changing rooms too, would cost more which may be a stumbling block.

So a list of places where gender/sex identification is important to prevent people feeling uneasy

Bathrooms/changing rooms - sounds like these can be designed correctly to prevent this

Rape/domestic violence refuge - I am no expert on these but with some thought in design hopefully these can be made safe for those that need them too

Prisons - tricky one,

Professional sport- again tricky

Are there any other situations where someone's gender/sex is actually important?

Sexual and domestic violence centres is not about physical design but the entire principle of the service currently is they are single sex in terms of those who access the service and those who work there and that is protected by law. So it is tricky .... yes sexual and domestic violence happens to both sets but the statistical fact is that the vast majority of victims are women (people born female) and the vast majority of perpetrators are statistically male (people born with penis) ... there must be provision for all that need it but the answer is not unisex spaces ..

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By *ustus555Couple over a year ago

NG 21

Errrm. Why should I be told what to respect. I believe in live & let live to a certain extent.

But don't tell me what to respect.

Respect is earned in my book. Always has been, always will be.

Slate me if you want, don't care.

Ppl are entitled to an opinion

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Gender is quite simply what you identify as and others should respect that identification.

What are your views on sex regarding medical identification? How do we identify/categorise sex.

Should the debate go ahead?

I'm a woman, a CIS woman. Let's remain respectful please."

For us its you are either male or female and have the genitals which prove it.

Now the what you identify as is up to you but don't push it on people who disagree with you and blame them for ignorance when someone says different, I (him) can identify as a 6ft blonde hair adonis but the truth is I am 5ft fat dark hair, now should I get offended being told otherwise, NO, because I'm me and you are you.

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By *melie LAL OP Woman over a year ago

Peterborough

"It's an opinion which matters not so please don't have a go peeps, I mean no disrespect.

Two genders: Male (men) & Female (women)

An example off the top of my head - woman doesn't reveal she's post-op trans, wouldn't be screened for prostate cancer.

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By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"This is a very new to most people so there is a huge amount to controversy around the subject.

Everyone has the right to believe what ever they want, they can identify as what ever they want, but you also have to respect others views and that they do not have to agree with you.

Medical procedures are cosmetic surgery to make you feel more like the sex you want to be, but biology can not be changed.

Be who and what you want to be but respect others beliefs too.

I personally have two friends born intersex. They have both biological sexes in evidence and this is clinically proven.

They would not need cosmetic surgery to look or have biologiaspects of either sex.

It's not a huge stretch to understand thst there could be many others with degrees of these conditions( for want of a better term)

This is the problem with your argument.

Knowing 2 intersex people is an Astonishing coincidence given the rarity of the condition . Its also a little disingenuous to lump them in with the trans debate. "

I did not 'lump them in with the trans debate'

It was part of my pointing out that biological sex is not simply cut and dried as many like to think.

There are clearly not only two biological sexes despite those being the majority.

It is also the case that , much as people do not seem to understand, gender is not the same as biological sex assignment.

One friend is certainly very much involved in this debate as he presents as a male and is a father of children but has female sex organs also and always had the desire to be a woman.

He was raised as male despite the obvious issues and has always lived as a male. He is a pretty successful person as a male too.

However , that is not how he feels within.

I cannot begin to imagine that life as I have absolutely no experience of it.

If I did not know them then maybe my opinion would be as others here but I think that certainly in some situations , there's so much more than we know.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It's an opinion which matters not so please don't have a go peeps, I mean no disrespect.

Two genders: Male (men) & Female (women)

An example off the top of my head - woman doesn't reveal she's post-op trans, wouldn't be screened for prostate cancer."

When it comes to health, it should be an open book experience otherwise how on earth can we conduct a proper diagnosis.

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By *iasubTV/TS over a year ago

Ilkeston

As long as you are happy and a nice person who am i to judge. You being you is not causing me any harm so why should i judge for it. At the end of the day we all have opinions but as long as everyone is respectful on both sides it would be such a nicer place for everyone.

Maybe I am being naive but I genuinely believe in treat people how you want to be treated

Happy Tuesday

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By *argaret James200TV/TS over a year ago

Birmingham

first off, most trans women hold precious the feelings of sisterhood that goes with their "lets say" adopted gender and would be MORE likely to be protective of other females in the sanctuary of the female toilets than a threat.

Second: a trans person on the journey of transition has the aim of loosing that most precious of male weapons "Bob the penis" at some time during the journey and believe me it's harder to stand and piss in a toilet when you don't have a penis than when sitting down.

Having said that most trans women don't wan't to be stand outish, they want to be in the toilets just as long as it takes to do the business reapply the makeup and get back to the flirting, drinking, and dancing,

however the toilets should never be classed as a safe haven, spoken as one who has seen a catfight in a toilet over the bloke at the bar.

I have also not been able to understand why any trans person would want to compete in sports at a level that you absolutely have to be outed as different, most trans women on estrogen start to loose some muscle fibres but do keep their muscle memory and that alone should I feel exclude them unless their transition was at a younger age when their body development would be consistent with a young female, sport "IS" the difficult question and I personally would prob abstain from the scrutiny it brings.

One last item trans women to men, there are actually more about than one would think, why do they find life as trans so much less dramatic, is that a rhetorical question ?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

If you want to identify as anything other than your biological sex, then that is entirely up to you.

If you want me to identify you as anything other than your biological sex, then that is up to me.

The debate should most definitely go ahead.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Professor Kathleen Stock is the speaker.

Online journalists are concentrating on the gender side of the things whereas on the BBC news, it was talking about (medical/biological) sex."

She got a load of shit a while back didn’t she

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Probably a simplistic comment but my initial reaction is live and let live

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

*sits eating popcorn *

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

"This is a very new to most people so there is a huge amount to controversy around the subject.

Everyone has the right to believe what ever they want, they can identify as what ever they want, but you also have to respect others views and that they do not have to agree with you.

Medical procedures are cosmetic surgery to make you feel more like the sex you want to be, but biology can not be changed.

Be who and what you want to be but respect others beliefs too.

I personally have two friends born intersex. They have both biological sexes in evidence and this is clinically proven.

They would not need cosmetic surgery to look or have biologiaspects of either sex.

It's not a huge stretch to understand thst there could be many others with degrees of these conditions( for want of a better term)

This is the problem with your argument.

Knowing 2 intersex people is an Astonishing coincidence given the rarity of the condition . Its also a little disingenuous to lump them in with the trans debate. "

Thought the same..what's the odds, eh? Maybe he should be picking my lottery numbers.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If you want to identify as anything other than your biological sex, then that is entirely up to you.

If you want me to identify you as anything other than your biological sex, then that is up to me.

The debate should most definitely go ahead."

I agree. Also, I find the term "cis" quite offensive. I am a woman, and that descriptor is all that's needed.

Bess x

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Probably a simplistic comment but my initial reaction is live and let live "

like simplicity

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

Public bathrooms definitely could be designed so that the sink is in with the toilet. Changing rooms too, would cost more which may be a stumbling block.

So a list of places where gender/sex identification is important to prevent people feeling uneasy

Bathrooms/changing rooms - sounds like these can be designed correctly to prevent this

Rape/domestic violence refuge - I am no expert on these but with some thought in design hopefully these can be made safe for those that need them too

Prisons - tricky one,

Professional sport- again tricky

Are there any other situations where someone's gender/sex is actually important?

Any woman only group, so also breast feeding support groups, menopause support groups for example.

Why is the prisons question tricky?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

"If you want to identify as anything other than your biological sex, then that is entirely up to you.

If you want me to identify you as anything other than your biological sex, then that is up to me.

The debate should most definitely go ahead.

I agree. Also, I find the term "cis" quite offensive. I am a woman, and that descriptor is all that's needed.

Bess x"

Exactly. I'm not a subset of my own sex.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *nightsoftheCoffeeTableCouple over a year ago

Leeds

They do them, I do me.

Mrs

So you don't want to be a person with a vagina? Personally, I think that takes things too far (and that's just an opinion)."

No I'm a woman as I've stated. Cis isn't something I want to add to my gender and that's ok! You add what you want but don't push it on others.

Mrs

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Public bathrooms definitely could be designed so that the sink is in with the toilet. Changing rooms too, would cost more which may be a stumbling block.

So a list of places where gender/sex identification is important to prevent people feeling uneasy

Bathrooms/changing rooms - sounds like these can be designed correctly to prevent this

Rape/domestic violence refuge - I am no expert on these but with some thought in design hopefully these can be made safe for those that need them too

Prisons - tricky one,

Professional sport- again tricky

Are there any other situations where someone's gender/sex is actually important?

Any woman only group, so also breast feeding support groups, menopause support groups for example.

Why is the prisons question tricky?

I’m guessing a trans woman wouldn’t go to a breastfeeding or menopause group?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"If you want to identify as anything other than your biological sex, then that is entirely up to you.

If you want me to identify you as anything other than your biological sex, then that is up to me.

The debate should most definitely go ahead.

I agree. Also, I find the term "cis" quite offensive. I am a woman, and that descriptor is all that's needed.

Bess x"

Why should it be offensive in any way?

It simply means that you are the same biological sex that you were assigned at birth.

You seem happy with that at least so that is what you are it would seem.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If you want to identify as anything other than your biological sex, then that is entirely up to you.

If you want me to identify you as anything other than your biological sex, then that is up to me.

The debate should most definitely go ahead.

I agree. Also, I find the term "cis" quite offensive. I am a woman, and that descriptor is all that's needed.

Bess x"

Cisgender (CIS) is simply an adjective that describes a person whose gender identity aligns with their sex assigned at birth. It's not meant to be disrespectful. Having said this, I've never seen a tick box on a form with CIS, and agree with you in referring to peeps as either man or woman (or TG/TV/CD, etc.). Labelling is a fucker.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *melie LAL OP Woman over a year ago

Peterborough

"This is a very new to most people so there is a huge amount to controversy around the subject.

Everyone has the right to believe what ever they want, they can identify as what ever they want, but you also have to respect others views and that they do not have to agree with you.

Medical procedures are cosmetic surgery to make you feel more like the sex you want to be, but biology can not be changed.

Be who and what you want to be but respect others beliefs too.

I personally have two friends born intersex. They have both biological sexes in evidence and this is clinically proven.

They would not need cosmetic surgery to look or have biologiaspects of either sex.

It's not a huge stretch to understand thst there could be many others with degrees of these conditions( for want of a better term)

This is the problem with your argument.

Knowing 2 intersex people is an Astonishing coincidence given the rarity of the condition . Its also a little disingenuous to lump them in with the trans debate.

I did not 'lump them in with the trans debate'

It was part of my pointing out that biological sex is not simply cut and dried as many like to think.

There are clearly not only two biological sexes despite those being the majority.

It is also the case that , much as people do not seem to understand, gender is not the same as biological sex assignment.

One friend is certainly very much involved in this debate as he presents as a male and is a father of children but has female sex organs also and always had the desire to be a woman.

He was raised as male despite the obvious issues and has always lived as a male. He is a pretty successful person as a male too.

However , that is not how he feels within.

I cannot begin to imagine that life as I have absolutely no experience of it.

If I did not know them then maybe my opinion would be as others here but I think that certainly in some situations , there's so much more than we know."

You obviously missed my post on how we define sex... Chromosomes

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"This is a very new to most people so there is a huge amount to controversy around the subject.

Everyone has the right to believe what ever they want, they can identify as what ever they want, but you also have to respect others views and that they do not have to agree with you.

Medical procedures are cosmetic surgery to make you feel more like the sex you want to be, but biology can not be changed.

Be who and what you want to be but respect others beliefs too.

I personally have two friends born intersex. They have both biological sexes in evidence and this is clinically proven.

They would not need cosmetic surgery to look or have biologiaspects of either sex.

It's not a huge stretch to understand thst there could be many others with degrees of these conditions( for want of a better term)

This is the problem with your argument.

Knowing 2 intersex people is an Astonishing coincidence given the rarity of the condition . Its also a little disingenuous to lump them in with the trans debate.

Thought the same..what's the odds, eh? Maybe he should be picking my lottery numbers."

Maybe my life is just a little more open and interesting than both of yours...

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *atnip make me purrWoman over a year ago

Reading

"I miss the 90s when the world was less confusing

Didn’t people in the 90s believe the world was gonna end in 2000 or something"

Yes we dud and were told to fill the bathtub on NYE in case you need to flush the toilet. Ahhhh them were the days.

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By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"If you want to identify as anything other than your biological sex, then that is entirely up to you.

If you want me to identify you as anything other than your biological sex, then that is up to me.

The debate should most definitely go ahead.

I agree. Also, I find the term "cis" quite offensive. I am a woman, and that descriptor is all that's needed.

Bess x

Totally true

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *esmond and Molly JonesCouple over a year ago

Watford

Why should it be offensive in any way?

It simply means that you are the same biological sex that you were assigned at birth.

You seem happy with that at least so that is what you are it would seem."

It's offensive because a certain community of people have decided that anybody who wants to call themselves a woman is a woman.

No prefix is needed at all. Woman is perfectly sufficient. No qualifier needed.

A qualifier is only needed for somebody who is not a woman but wishes to identify as such. Therefore, the onus is upon those people to use the qualifier such as 'trans'.

No qualifier is needed for an actual man or woman. None whatsoever.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If you want to identify as anything other than your biological sex, then that is entirely up to you.

If you want me to identify you as anything other than your biological sex, then that is up to me.

The debate should most definitely go ahead.

I agree. Also, I find the term "cis" quite offensive. I am a woman, and that descriptor is all that's needed.

Bess x

Why should it be offensive in any way?

It simply means that you are the same biological sex that you were assigned at birth.

You seem happy with that at least so that is what you are it would seem."

As yellow peril said above, "I'm not a subset of my own sex", I am a woman, a biologically born female in adulthood, there is no need for any kind of prefix.

Bess x

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

Public bathrooms definitely could be designed so that the sink is in with the toilet. Changing rooms too, would cost more which may be a stumbling block.

So a list of places where gender/sex identification is important to prevent people feeling uneasy

Bathrooms/changing rooms - sounds like these can be designed correctly to prevent this

Rape/domestic violence refuge - I am no expert on these but with some thought in design hopefully these can be made safe for those that need them too

Prisons - tricky one,

Professional sport- again tricky

Are there any other situations where someone's gender/sex is actually important?

Any woman only group, so also breast feeding support groups, menopause support groups for example.

Why is the prisons question tricky?

I’m guessing a trans woman wouldn’t go to a breastfeeding or menopause group?"

Your first mistake was applying common sense here.

https://www.laleche.org.uk/support-transgender-non-binary-parents/

I'd add lesbian clubs and groups to the above list. Lesbian friends who are clear that they are same sex attracted and NOT same gender attracted do not want biological men in their social dating circles.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"This is a very new to most people so there is a huge amount to controversy around the subject.

Everyone has the right to believe what ever they want, they can identify as what ever they want, but you also have to respect others views and that they do not have to agree with you.

Medical procedures are cosmetic surgery to make you feel more like the sex you want to be, but biology can not be changed.

Be who and what you want to be but respect others beliefs too.

I personally have two friends born intersex. They have both biological sexes in evidence and this is clinically proven.

They would not need cosmetic surgery to look or have biologiaspects of either sex.

It's not a huge stretch to understand thst there could be many others with degrees of these conditions( for want of a better term)

This is the problem with your argument.

Knowing 2 intersex people is an Astonishing coincidence given the rarity of the condition . Its also a little disingenuous to lump them in with the trans debate.

I did not 'lump them in with the trans debate'

It was part of my pointing out that biological sex is not simply cut and dried as many like to think.

There are clearly not only two biological sexes despite those being the majority.

It is also the case that , much as people do not seem to understand, gender is not the same as biological sex assignment.

One friend is certainly very much involved in this debate as he presents as a male and is a father of children but has female sex organs also and always had the desire to be a woman.

He was raised as male despite the obvious issues and has always lived as a male. He is a pretty successful person as a male too.

However , that is not how he feels within.

I cannot begin to imagine that life as I have absolutely no experience of it.

If I did not know them then maybe my opinion would be as others here but I think that certainly in some situations , there's so much more than we know.

You obviously missed my post on how we define sex... Chromosomes "

I didn't.

As you can see it was not your comment that I copied into mine and so was not you I was referring to.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"If you want to identify as anything other than your biological sex, then that is entirely up to you.

If you want me to identify you as anything other than your biological sex, then that is up to me.

The debate should most definitely go ahead.

I agree. Also, I find the term "cis" quite offensive. I am a woman, and that descriptor is all that's needed.

Bess x

Why should it be offensive in any way?

It simply means that you are the same biological sex that you were assigned at birth.

You seem happy with that at least so that is what you are it would seem.

As yellow peril said above, "I'm not a subset of my own sex", I am a woman, a biologically born female in adulthood, there is no need for any kind of prefix.

Bess x"

Whether you like it or not Cis is there anyway.

You're opinion on that will not change it.

It's unlikely to affect you at all.

Don't be unnecessarily offended.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

"This is a very new to most people so there is a huge amount to controversy around the subject.

Everyone has the right to believe what ever they want, they can identify as what ever they want, but you also have to respect others views and that they do not have to agree with you.

Medical procedures are cosmetic surgery to make you feel more like the sex you want to be, but biology can not be changed.

Be who and what you want to be but respect others beliefs too.

I personally have two friends born intersex. They have both biological sexes in evidence and this is clinically proven.

They would not need cosmetic surgery to look or have biologiaspects of either sex.

It's not a huge stretch to understand thst there could be many others with degrees of these conditions( for want of a better term)

This is the problem with your argument.

Knowing 2 intersex people is an Astonishing coincidence given the rarity of the condition . Its also a little disingenuous to lump them in with the trans debate.

Thought the same..what's the odds, eh? Maybe he should be picking my lottery numbers.

Maybe my life is just a little more open and interesting than both of yours..."

Mibbe.

Mibbe not.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Public bathrooms definitely could be designed so that the sink is in with the toilet. Changing rooms too, would cost more which may be a stumbling block.

So a list of places where gender/sex identification is important to prevent people feeling uneasy

Bathrooms/changing rooms - sounds like these can be designed correctly to prevent this

Rape/domestic violence refuge - I am no expert on these but with some thought in design hopefully these can be made safe for those that need them too

Prisons - tricky one,

Professional sport- again tricky

Are there any other situations where someone's gender/sex is actually important?

Any woman only group, so also breast feeding support groups, menopause support groups for example.

Why is the prisons question tricky?

I’m guessing a trans woman wouldn’t go to a breastfeeding or menopause group?

Your first mistake was applying common sense here.

https://www.laleche.org.uk/support-transgender-non-binary-parents/

Maybe I’m being thick

trans women can’t breastfeed or have a menopause? I think?

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Before I read:

Gender is how you feel, possibly based on societal norms.

Sex is something given to you by a doctor. It will normally be based on your genitals. Innturn that is very likely to be related to chromosomes but it's not a perfect match.

We tend to say we class people by sex but often it's how they present to the world so more gender related than we care to admit.

As a CIS man it's hard to fully empathise with a trans person. The best I have is if I found out my parents were russian. Would I feel British or russian then ? My genes say russian. But I would relate to Brits way more.

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By *melie LAL OP Woman over a year ago

Peterborough

"This is a very new to most people so there is a huge amount to controversy around the subject.

Everyone has the right to believe what ever they want, they can identify as what ever they want, but you also have to respect others views and that they do not have to agree with you.

Medical procedures are cosmetic surgery to make you feel more like the sex you want to be, but biology can not be changed.

Be who and what you want to be but respect others beliefs too.

I personally have two friends born intersex. They have both biological sexes in evidence and this is clinically proven.

They would not need cosmetic surgery to look or have biologiaspects of either sex.

It's not a huge stretch to understand thst there could be many others with degrees of these conditions( for want of a better term)

This is the problem with your argument.

Knowing 2 intersex people is an Astonishing coincidence given the rarity of the condition . Its also a little disingenuous to lump them in with the trans debate.

I did not 'lump them in with the trans debate'

It was part of my pointing out that biological sex is not simply cut and dried as many like to think.

There are clearly not only two biological sexes despite those being the majority.

It is also the case that , much as people do not seem to understand, gender is not the same as biological sex assignment.

One friend is certainly very much involved in this debate as he presents as a male and is a father of children but has female sex organs also and always had the desire to be a woman.

He was raised as male despite the obvious issues and has always lived as a male. He is a pretty successful person as a male too.

However , that is not how he feels within.

I cannot begin to imagine that life as I have absolutely no experience of it.

If I did not know them then maybe my opinion would be as others here but I think that certainly in some situations , there's so much more than we know.

You obviously missed my post on how we define sex... Chromosomes

I didn't.

As you can see it was not your comment that I copied into mine and so was not you I was referring to."

No but I was referring to your point of not only being two biological sexes.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

Why should it be offensive in any way?

It simply means that you are the same biological sex that you were assigned at birth.

You seem happy with that at least so that is what you are it would seem.

It's offensive because a certain community of people have decided that anybody who wants to call themselves a woman is a woman.

No prefix is needed at all. Woman is perfectly sufficient. No qualifier needed.

A qualifier is only needed for somebody who is not a woman but wishes to identify as such. Therefore, the onus is upon those people to use the qualifier such as 'trans'.

No qualifier is needed for an actual man or woman. None whatsoever."

That is just your opinion on the matter.

When you are a biologist, psychologist or anyone respected in these areas then maybe you will get to have your input.

Until then, Cis is there and stands .

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

Public bathrooms definitely could be designed so that the sink is in with the toilet. Changing rooms too, would cost more which may be a stumbling block.

So a list of places where gender/sex identification is important to prevent people feeling uneasy

Bathrooms/changing rooms - sounds like these can be designed correctly to prevent this

Rape/domestic violence refuge - I am no expert on these but with some thought in design hopefully these can be made safe for those that need them too

Prisons - tricky one,

Professional sport- again tricky

Are there any other situations where someone's gender/sex is actually important?

Any woman only group, so also breast feeding support groups, menopause support groups for example.

Why is the prisons question tricky?

I’m guessing a trans woman wouldn’t go to a breastfeeding or menopause group?

Your first mistake was applying common sense here.

https://www.laleche.org.uk/support-transgender-non-binary-parents/

Maybe I’m being thick

trans women can’t breastfeed or have a menopause? I think?"

They can't. But La Leche still accept them into their groups. Look at the link above.

I have friends who have spoke about transwomen attempting to join menopause support groups. Very common online for it to happen though you could argue that is more annoying than anything since you're not interacting with those people face to face.

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By *abs..Woman over a year ago

I am a woman, not a cis woman. That label should not be imposed on us. The first time I heard ‘cis’ was on here and now it seems to be everywhere but it isn’t a label women have asked for.

I think people should identify as they wish when they are an adult, no judgement, no harm, no discrimination.

Do I think you can change sex? No, it’s biologically impossible. The make-up of genes of males and females are very different. It is only with medication and intervention that some characteristics can be changed.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

Why should it be offensive in any way?

It simply means that you are the same biological sex that you were assigned at birth.

You seem happy with that at least so that is what you are it would seem.

It's offensive because a certain community of people have decided that anybody who wants to call themselves a woman is a woman.

No prefix is needed at all. Woman is perfectly sufficient. No qualifier needed.

A qualifier is only needed for somebody who is not a woman but wishes to identify as such. Therefore, the onus is upon those people to use the qualifier such as 'trans'.

No qualifier is needed for an actual man or woman. None whatsoever.

That is just your opinion on the matter.

When you are a biologist, psychologist or anyone respected in these areas then maybe you will get to have your input.

Until then, Cis is there and stands ."

Professor Robert Winston is a pretty smart guy and he doesn't think there are more than two sexes.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

Why should it be offensive in any way?

It simply means that you are the same biological sex that you were assigned at birth.

You seem happy with that at least so that is what you are it would seem.

It's offensive because a certain community of people have decided that anybody who wants to call themselves a woman is a woman.

No prefix is needed at all. Woman is perfectly sufficient. No qualifier needed.

A qualifier is only needed for somebody who is not a woman but wishes to identify as such. Therefore, the onus is upon those people to use the qualifier such as 'trans'.

No qualifier is needed for an actual man or woman. None whatsoever.

That is just your opinion on the matter.

When you are a biologist, psychologist or anyone respected in these areas then maybe you will get to have your input.

Until then, Cis is there and stands .

Professor Robert Winston is a pretty smart guy and he doesn't think there are more than two sexes."

As I've previously said, I know two people who are actual living proof that that cannot be the case.

And I'm certain that there must be many more to prove him wrong too.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

Why should it be offensive in any way?

It simply means that you are the same biological sex that you were assigned at birth.

You seem happy with that at least so that is what you are it would seem.

It's offensive because a certain community of people have decided that anybody who wants to call themselves a woman is a woman.

No prefix is needed at all. Woman is perfectly sufficient. No qualifier needed.

A qualifier is only needed for somebody who is not a woman but wishes to identify as such. Therefore, the onus is upon those people to use the qualifier such as 'trans'.

No qualifier is needed for an actual man or woman. None whatsoever.

That is just your opinion on the matter.

When you are a biologist, psychologist or anyone respected in these areas then maybe you will get to have your input.

Until then, Cis is there and stands .

Professor Robert Winston is a pretty smart guy and he doesn't think there are more than two sexes.

As I've previously said, I know two people who are actual living proof that that cannot be the case.

And I'm certain that there must be many more to prove him wrong too."

Ha ha ha ha.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *nightsoftheCoffeeTableCouple over a year ago

Leeds

Why should it be offensive in any way?

It simply means that you are the same biological sex that you were assigned at birth.

You seem happy with that at least so that is what you are it would seem.

It's offensive because a certain community of people have decided that anybody who wants to call themselves a woman is a woman.

No prefix is needed at all. Woman is perfectly sufficient. No qualifier needed.

A qualifier is only needed for somebody who is not a woman but wishes to identify as such. Therefore, the onus is upon those people to use the qualifier such as 'trans'.

No qualifier is needed for an actual man or woman. None whatsoever.

That is just your opinion on the matter.

When you are a biologist, psychologist or anyone respected in these areas then maybe you will get to have your input.

Until then, Cis is there and stands ."

Yes the word cis exists doesn't mean we have to use it or have it imposed on us.

The word nubbin exists too people can identify as one as long as they don't put it on me.

Why people feel the need to throw labels onto others is beyond me.

Woman, just a woman and I'll stay a woman.

Mrs

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)

By *irldnCouple over a year ago

Brighton

I know this is going somewhat off topic (sorry) but a big issue for me right now is people born male but identifying as female competing in female category sports (at all levels not just elite).

People born male (even before puberty but especially after) have significant physiological advantages over people born female. No amount of hormone treatment can reduce bone density, limb length, skeletal structure (position and width of pelvis), lung capacity, heart capacity etc.

Sport governing bodies need to either create an additional category or make the male category open (alongside female only category).

Often when this is suggested the trans activists accuse people of trying to ban trans women from sport. Couldn’t be further from the truth. They want fairness in sport and that means trans women either compete against men or compete in their own category but never against women.

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By *adCherriesCouple over a year ago

Cheshire/Northwest

Genuine question, why is there many more men changing to being women?

You don't hear much about women changing to men with regards to changing areas, sports, toilets, politics etc.

It genuinely feels soon as one sex starts to feel equal (for example more recognition for women's sport) it does tits up so to speak.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men.

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By *iasubTV/TS over a year ago

Ilkeston

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men. "

It amazes me too

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By *abs..Woman over a year ago

"I know this is going somewhat off topic (sorry) but a big issue for me right now is people born male but identifying as female competing in female category sports (at all levels not just elite).

Sport governing bodies need to either create an additional category or make the male category open (alongside female only category).

Girls are easily put off sports and I am sure this will have a detrimental effect. It’s has an easy solution, they just add a category. Women shouldn’t have to lose their right to fairness or safe spaces etc.

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By *hrista BellendWoman over a year ago

surrounded by twinkly lights

"Genuine question, why is there many more men changing to being women?

You don't hear much about women changing to men with regards to changing areas, sports, toilets, politics etc.

It genuinely feels soon as one sex starts to feel equal (for example more recognition for women's sport) it does tits up so to speak. "

I think sex is a huge part of it to be honest, there are a huge amount of men who dress and have boob implants, but have zero desire to take female hormones or have genital reassignment

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By *melie LAL OP Woman over a year ago

Peterborough

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men. "

I made an interesting but sad observation on a ward - middle aged transwoman (carer to her mother) and an adult teen trans man (uni student). The first what no supporting family friends, the second had lots of support. The observation was that male staff made jibes behind the woman's back but no negatively was noted against the man.

Their journeys could not be more different.

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By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men. "

Yes , definitely.

I'd never have any insight af sll into it but for one particular friend who I've discussed it with.

Not really trans per se but very much included in this still.

My life and experience would be nothing to do with it otherwise.

Having grown up in the 80s and 90s and see the stigma and hatred over being gay, genderbending and the Aids pandemic, I'd be happier if people would listen to other viewpoints.

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By *adCherriesCouple over a year ago

Cheshire/Northwest

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men.

It amazes me too "

It could be a number of things.

1) Are Transwomen less willing to fit in and need validation?

2) Are men more accepting of transmen then women are of transwomen?

3) Do Transwomen want more then transmen?

Any other reasons?

With regards to sports we haven't heard of a transman beating male athletes etc. Using this as an example as races and sports events have been hitting the headlines alot recently.

It's an interesting discussion once you get talking about it, instead of lots of previous threads ending in name calling.

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By *den-Valley-coupleCouple over a year ago

Cumbria

Not sure it's really worth worrying about just accept people as you find them and try not to worry about what the media want us to think.

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By *adCherriesCouple over a year ago

Cheshire/Northwest

"Genuine question, why is there many more men changing to being women?

You don't hear much about women changing to men with regards to changing areas, sports, toilets, politics etc.

It genuinely feels soon as one sex starts to feel equal (for example more recognition for women's sport) it does tits up so to speak.

I think sex is a huge part of it to be honest, there are a huge amount of men who dress and have boob implants, but have zero desire to take female hormones or have genital reassignment"

Very interesting response, I have asked why many people don't go into full transition and the consensus is mixed.

Any TV/TS enlighten us? Anyways good to hear from someone more knowledgeable in this side of things.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men.

It amazes me too

It could be a number of things.

1) Are Transwomen less willing to fit in and need validation?

2) Are men more accepting of transmen then women are of transwomen?

3) Do Transwomen want more then transmen?

Any other reasons?

With regards to sports we haven't heard of a transman beating male athletes etc. Using this as an example as races and sports events have been hitting the headlines alot recently.

It's an interesting discussion once you get talking about it, instead of lots of previous threads ending in name calling. "

I just think the OP was general enough that the conversation could’ve included trans men but I do wonder whether people on fab have more issues with trans women more than trans men

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By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men. "

It's because they're biological women. So they don't matter as much.

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By *melie LAL OP Woman over a year ago

Peterborough

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men.

It amazes me too

It could be a number of things.

1) Are Transwomen less willing to fit in and need validation?

2) Are men more accepting of transmen then women are of transwomen?

3) Do Transwomen want more then transmen?

Any other reasons?

With regards to sports we haven't heard of a transman beating male athletes etc. Using this as an example as races and sports events have been hitting the headlines alot recently.

It's an interesting discussion once you get talking about it, instead of lots of previous threads ending in name calling. "

And pertaining to my observation up there somewhere

4) Are men more accepting of trans men than they are of transwoman?

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By *andyfloss2000Woman over a year ago

ashford

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men.

Their journeys could not be more different."

That is really sad!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men.

It's because they're biological women. So they don't matter as much."

Lol well played

That explains why men overlook them. But not why they don’t really come up in these conversations on fab

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By *wisted999Man over a year ago

North Bucks

Looks like someone has tried to stop the debate by glueing themself to the floor in Oxford right now.

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By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"This is a very new to most people so there is a huge amount to controversy around the subject.

Everyone has the right to believe what ever they want, they can identify as what ever they want, but you also have to respect others views and that they do not have to agree with you.

Medical procedures are cosmetic surgery to make you feel more like the sex you want to be, but biology can not be changed.

Be who and what you want to be but respect others beliefs too.

I personally have two friends born intersex. They have both biological sexes in evidence and this is clinically proven.

They would not need cosmetic surgery to look or have biologiaspects of either sex.

It's not a huge stretch to understand thst there could be many others with degrees of these conditions( for want of a better term)

This is the problem with your argument.

Knowing 2 intersex people is an Astonishing coincidence given the rarity of the condition . Its also a little disingenuous to lump them in with the trans debate.

I did not 'lump them in with the trans debate'

It was part of my pointing out that biological sex is not simply cut and dried as many like to think.

There are clearly not only two biological sexes despite those being the majority.

It is also the case that , much as people do not seem to understand, gender is not the same as biological sex assignment.

One friend is certainly very much involved in this debate as he presents as a male and is a father of children but has female sex organs also and always had the desire to be a woman.

He was raised as male despite the obvious issues and has always lived as a male. He is a pretty successful person as a male too.

However , that is not how he feels within.

I cannot begin to imagine that life as I have absolutely no experience of it.

If I did not know them then maybe my opinion would be as others here but I think that certainly in some situations , there's so much more than we know.

You obviously missed my post on how we define sex... Chromosomes

I didn't.

As you can see it was not your comment that I copied into mine and so was not you I was referring to.

No but I was referring to your point of not only being two biological sexes."

Ahh, I see that you replied to me but I missed that.

Apologies.

Yes I do agree there.

I've no idea how this works with intersex.

I know that my male friend it was just decided as a baby despite the fact he has female sex organs too.

I've not added anything about chromosomes but he does look like a man though very short and slight.

I just know that he's lived his whole life as a man but with a vagina and craves to live as a woman.

It's not a TV thing about dressing so I think it is a very complex thing to deal with.

With regards to your other comment of two very different lives. I can see how that must be and how sad life could be for those with no support in this.

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By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

I do think it's very sad to read sone of the attitudes written here.

We have absolutely no idea what hs going on in others lives and I feel it could all be easier with a touch of empathy.

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By *immy.Man over a year ago

Manchester

A biker who identifies himself as a cyclist, won Le Tour De France!

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By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

"I do think it's very sad to read sone of the attitudes written here.

We have absolutely no idea what hs going on in others lives and I feel it could all be easier with a touch of empathy.

I'm still waiting on a reply to my issue with prisons raised above.

Where is the empathy for women, many of whom will have been victims of sexusl assault, being locked up with make sex offenders?

At least I can mouth off and leave my menopause support group in a cloud of expletives. The women incarcerated with these men have no such luxury.

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By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

"I do think it's very sad to read sone of the attitudes written here.

We have absolutely no idea what hs going on in others lives and I feel it could all be easier with a touch of empathy.

I'm still waiting on a reply to my issue with prisons raised above.

Where is the empathy for women, many of whom will have been victims of sexusl assault, being locked up with make sex offenders?

At least I can mouth off and leave my menopause support group in a cloud of expletives. The women incarcerated with these men have no such luxury."

** The question was general one rather then directly to you.

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By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men.

It's because they're biological women. So they don't matter as much.

Lol well played

That explains why men overlook them. But not why they don’t really come up in these conversations on fab"

Because they do not impact males spaces in the same way that trans women impact female spaces.

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By *ellhungvweMan over a year ago

Cheltenham

I think history has shown that if you try to stop people from exploring and experimenting then it generally leads to a much poorer society - culturally, economically and technically.

In this thread, that means two things:

1. People wanting to experiment with their gender leads to more diversity and that is a good thing.

2. People wanting to shut down other opinions leads to a reduction in diversity and that is very much not a good thing.

The ability to discuss and publish your views is _the_ fundamental right. It is actually the thing that allows you to experiment with your gender in the first place. If you try to shut down someone’s opinion because you don’t like it or you are hurt by it then I think you are attacking the core of what gives us our societal freedoms and you should be ashamed for that. Anyone who denies someone the right to express themselves is not worthy of the freedoms they themselves enjoy.

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By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men.

Their journeys could not be more different."

As health professionals they should have their arses booted in no uncertain terms for this. Any support and assistance offered should be on the basis of who needs it most.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I do think it's very sad to read sone of the attitudes written here.

We have absolutely no idea what hs going on in others lives and I feel it could all be easier with a touch of empathy.

I agree. Sadly, the empathy you speak of is usually only demanded by the FARTS, but it never seems to be reciprocated.

Bess x

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men.

It's because they're biological women. So they don't matter as much.

Lol well played

That explains why men overlook them. But not why they don’t really come up in these conversations on fab

Because they do not impact males spaces in the same way that trans women impact female spaces."

This is also true. And I suppose why the discussion is mostly had around trans women.

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By *amantha TSWoman over a year ago

Swindon

I think a lot of the issues come with the idea of self ID. The thought that because someone says they're a woman, they are. Which I can understand to a degree.

However I have been to the doctors, I am on the 5 year long waiting list for my NHS diagnosis. In the meantime I've been fortunate in that I've had private assessments, HRT, routine blood tests and operations to help me on my journey away from being a man. One I will complete someday. But I have been diagnosed by a professional with gender dysphoria, so classify myself as a woman. Not self ID. Does that change anyone's perspective?

Side note - we have to live a minimum of 2 years full time in our real gender to qualify for a GRC. If we are forced to male facilities how can we honestly do that?

As for safe spaces - Equality Act does make provision for crisis shelters, counselling etc based on biological sex. Which as a transgender woman I totally understand and support. The last thing I want to do is cause anyone distress. But when all I want to do is pee where's the issue with that?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think these conversations bring up valid feelings that shouldn’t be shut down. Though I am without doubt for trans inclusion I also acknowledge that as a cis man my views on many of these issues will be coming largely from privilege.

My current thoughts though are - I feel for trans people, to have their existence debated must be incredibly hard. To be denied access to spaces that they feel they belong must be incredibly hard. And ultimately all of these things are part of the many issues facing trans people - who have life expectancies so low lots of them don’t make it to their mid 30s.

I just wish we could have these conversations without it becoming so harmful but equally I say all that with a whole load of privilege. Just lots of love and solidarity all round.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think these conversations bring up valid feelings that shouldn’t be shut down. Though I am without doubt for trans inclusion I also acknowledge that as a cis man my views on many of these issues will be coming largely from privilege.

I just wish we could have these conversations without it becoming so harmful but equally I say all that with a whole load of privilege. Just lots of love and solidarity all round. "

And I’m out.

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By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"I think history has shown that if you try to stop people from exploring and experimenting then it generally leads to a much poorer society - culturally, economically and technically.

In this thread, that means two things:

1. People wanting to experiment with their gender leads to more diversity and that is a good thing.

2. People wanting to shut down other opinions leads to a reduction in diversity and that is very much not a good thing.

Truth.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Cis man

oh lord.

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By *mf123Man over a year ago

with one foot out the door

"I miss the 90s when the world was less confusing

Didn’t people in the 90s believe the world was gonna end in 2000 or something"
exactly a simpler time

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By *andyfloss2000Woman over a year ago

ashford

I just wish we could have these conversations without it becoming so harmful but equally I say all that with a whole load of privilege. Just lots of love and solidarity all round. "

xxxx

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men.

It's because they're biological women. So they don't matter as much.

Lol well played

That explains why men overlook them. But not why they don’t really come up in these conversations on fab

Because they do not impact males spaces in the same way that trans women impact female spaces."
but they impact female spaces dont they?

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By *ausage1970Man over a year ago

Shrewsbury

Freedom of speech should be allowed and debates are a great way to openly discuss opinions

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

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By *anforkinkywomenMan over a year ago

Barwell

People who don't automatically accept that trans women should be allowed in female toilets, female prisons and take part against women in sport shouldn't be labelled as bigoted.

The way the activists shout people down who they disagree with and aren't always willing to debate is unreasonable and makes them seem like lunatics. Especially when they call on people to be cancelled for voicing an opinion.

I agree trans people should be treated with respect but they also need to respect that automatically giving them access to certain spaces and competing in sport is unfair and can be dangerous. To protect biological woman's rights unfortunately we can't just say. Oh you've got a cock but identify as a woman. Let's let you into womens changing rooms.

If you can choose gender how do you know someone is being honest about how they identify? Especially if they have a penis. XX and XY is the only objective way to identify who is a man and woman.

Although I've only mentioned about womens safety (such as women with penises who've abused other women being allowed in Scottish prisons)

Consideration also needs to be given to Trans person safety as there is a lot of people who join the debate who simple hate the tran community.

If trans activists accept that biological women have genuine concerns they might actually get people more willing to listen to their own concerns.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"People who don't automatically accept that trans women should be allowed in female toilets, female prisons and take part against women in sport shouldn't be labelled as bigoted.

If you can choose gender how do you know someone is being honest about how they identify? Especially if they have a penis. XX and XY is the only objective way to identify who is a man and woman.

Although I've only mentioned about womens safety (such as women with penises who've abused other women being allowed in Scottish prisons)

Consideration also needs to be given to Trans person safety as there is a lot of people who join the debate who simple hate the tran community.

If trans activists accept that biological women have genuine concerns they might actually get people more willing to listen to their own concerns."
there will be extremists and absolutisya on all sides, but most of those I have spoken to accept both safety sides.

The issue they have is that the safety risk isn't from trans people

It's from men gaming the system (which is different)

I get that. And the risks are different in a prison v a bathroom imo. It's probably also a risk that can be managed with safe spaces.

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By *anforkinkywomenMan over a year ago

Barwell

Do any trans people on here accept that people might have concerns that don't stem from hate?

If so, do you have any solutions or safe guards for any of the issues that are often raise?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Cis man

oh lord."

Yes, cissexism is a problem that exists. However, it doesn’t mean we’re inherently a bad person. It just means we don’t know any better and need better educating.

By no means an expert on subject matter and forever learning, but I do prefer simplicity, and take comfort in knowing we're all unique in our own way; which is what makes each of us special. Matters not about label.

Call me CisMan, Man, CD, etc. couldn't careless. Irony is when peeps see me in guy mode they see man and when I'm all dolled up they see me as a woman. Yes, go and figure. Beautiful World but it's shared with batshit crazy peeps as well as the beautiful peeps who accept us for who we are "human beings".

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Do any trans people on here accept that people might have concerns that don't stem from hate?

If so, do you have any solutions or safe guards for any of the issues that are often raise?"
bathrooms: unisex cubicles for all. They then become no less dangerous than outside.

Prisons: gender as at point of crime avoids the recent Scottish case.

Refuges: right to refuse if the person has criminal conviction relating to violence or sex.

As above: you are largely seeking to mitigate against men gaming the system. Afaik, trans women present no extra risk versus women. Especially in non criminal situations.

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By *anforkinkywomenMan over a year ago

Barwell

"People who don't automatically accept that trans women should be allowed in female toilets, female prisons and take part against women in sport shouldn't be labelled as bigoted.

If you can choose gender how do you know someone is being honest about how they identify? Especially if they have a penis. XX and XY is the only objective way to identify who is a man and woman.

Although I've only mentioned about womens safety (such as women with penises who've abused other women being allowed in Scottish prisons)

Consideration also needs to be given to Trans person safety as there is a lot of people who join the debate who simple hate the tran community.

If trans activists accept that biological women have genuine concerns they might actually get people more willing to listen to their own concerns.there will be extremists and absolutisya on all sides, but most of those I have spoken to accept both safety sides.

The issue they have is that the safety risk isn't from trans people

It's from men gaming the system (which is different)

I get that. And the risks are different in a prison v a bathroom imo. It's probably also a risk that can be managed with safe spaces.

I agree that is true on the whole. But I had a gf for a while who lived with their trans Ex. I'll call her Kate. She used to bully and intimate my ex using her size and strength in a way a biological woman wouldn't often be able to do. I think this shows your cant rush to judge. That being said, controlling and coercive behaviour is illegal and not permitted what ever the gender.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"I think it’s interesting the way these conversations almost always don’t really include the experiences of trans men.

It amazes me too

It could be a number of things.

1) Are Transwomen less willing to fit in and need validation?

2) Are men more accepting of transmen then women are of transwomen?

3) Do Transwomen want more then transmen?

Any other reasons?

With regards to sports we haven't heard of a transman beating male athletes etc. Using this as an example as races and sports events have been hitting the headlines alot recently.

It's an interesting discussion once you get talking about it, instead of lots of previous threads ending in name calling. "

Our experience with people transitioning has mainly been among our (international) students. We've had more female-to-male than male-to-female trans individuals in our care. This year, we're aware of two transmen out of around a total of 1250 students. Transwomen that we're aware of this year is zero (but we might not be aware).

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By *os_GoddessofdawnWoman over a year ago

In the clouds

Yawn

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"CIS is an invention of attention seeking people that want to put everybody in a box to enhance their percieved identity.

You are a Woman, that's it. We are men & women, anything else is what someone pretends to be & wants the rest of us to join in.

I won't but people pretending does me no harm so I wish them no ill will. Just won't call a man a woman or vice versa.

I disagree that it’s the invention of people seeking attention and I think if you wish them no ill will and they do you no harm, then you should call them by the pronouns they wish you to. "

No, you are asking me to pretend. It's that simple & that is what it is, a surrealism where you agree to suspend truth & call a man or woman the gender pronouns they have chosen to override there true gender.

I and many won't accept it, live your life & don't be so arrogant to think you can enforce your wishes on others over fact.

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By *ustus555Couple over a year ago

NG 21

We have a secondary school local to us. There is a trans gender " girl" & I swear this is true. Now wants to identify as a cat. The school is now Evan providing a litter tray.

So when ppl say you should do this you should do that. Think about where it ends.

Rediculous

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"I miss the 90s when the world was less confusing

Didn’t people in the 90s believe the world was gonna end in 2000 or somethingexactly a simpler time"

The internet was always going to eventually create a world that turns in on itself.

Was good for the first 10 years.

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By *iasubTV/TS over a year ago

Ilkeston

"We have a secondary school local to us. There is a trans gender " girl" & I swear this is true. Now wants to identify as a cat. The school is now Evan providing a litter tray.

So when ppl say you should do this you should do that. Think about where it ends.

Rediculous"

Thats a pretty extreme case and i dont think many people are asking you to call them a cat

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"Cis man

oh lord.

Yes, cissexism is a problem that exists. However, it doesn’t mean we’re inherently a bad person. It just means we don’t know any better and need better educating.

Cissexism? That would be great on a Scrabble board.

All that has made me warm inside.

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By *anforkinkywomenMan over a year ago

Barwell

"We have a secondary school local to us. There is a trans gender " girl" & I swear this is true. Now wants to identify as a cat. The school is now Evan providing a litter tray.

So when ppl say you should do this you should do that. Think about where it ends.

Rediculous"

You're kidding about the litter tray

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By *ustus555Couple over a year ago

NG 21

"We have a secondary school local to us. There is a trans gender " girl" & I swear this is true. Now wants to identify as a cat. The school is now Evan providing a litter tray.

So when ppl say you should do this you should do that. Think about where it ends.

Rediculous

You're kidding about the litter tray

Nope. Absolutely not. Social services is " guiding" the school.

Wtf is next.

I dispair

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By *anforkinkywomenMan over a year ago

Barwell

"We have a secondary school local to us. There is a trans gender " girl" & I swear this is true. Now wants to identify as a cat. The school is now Evan providing a litter tray.

So when ppl say you should do this you should do that. Think about where it ends.

Rediculous

You're kidding about the litter tray

Nope. Absolutely not. Social services is " guiding" the school.

Wtf is next.

I dispair

I think they need help. Would they eat a mouse if you gave them one?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"We have a secondary school local to us. There is a trans gender " girl" & I swear this is true. Now wants to identify as a cat. The school is now Evan providing a litter tray.

So when ppl say you should do this you should do that. Think about where it ends.

Rediculous

You're kidding about the litter tray

Nope. Absolutely not. Social services is " guiding" the school.

Wtf is next.

I dispair

I think they need help. Would they eat a mouse if you gave them one?"
has this made the news? Feels like it's the kinda clickbait ppl love ...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I have no issue being labelled a cis woman. It has no effect on my life, but it makes life easier for some other people....

Therefore I fully support

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By *nigmaschild300Man over a year ago

dunfermline

There's a lot of very intolerant judgemental people on here.

There's also someone making up cat stories that can't spell ridiculous or despair.

There's also a lot of daily mail readers.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 30/05/23 23:39:14]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There's a lot of very intolerant judgemental people on here.

There's also someone making up cat stories that can't spell ridiculous or despair.

There's also a lot of daily mail readers. "

Agreed.

Unfortunately, many trans supporters/activists have always been intolerant towards the views of what they call "terfs". There are some who are able to debate rationally, but even they are shouted down by their own extremists. It's such a shame that they don't show the same levels of intolerance they so loudly demand from everyone else.

Bess x

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There's a lot of very intolerant judgemental people on here.

There's also someone making up cat stories that can't spell ridiculous or despair.

There's also a lot of daily mail readers.

Agreed.

Bess x "

Going totally off topic I was wondering why you were ending all your posts with the word bless……Duh!

It’s been a long day!

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By *anforkinkywomenMan over a year ago

Barwell

"There's a lot of very intolerant judgemental people on here.

There's also someone making up cat stories that can't spell ridiculous or despair.

There's also a lot of daily mail readers. "

Meow

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"There's a lot of very intolerant judgemental people on here.

There's also someone making up cat stories that can't spell ridiculous or despair.

There's also a lot of daily mail readers.

Agreed.

Bess x

Going totally off topic I was wondering why you were ending all your posts with the word bless……Duh!

It’s been a long day!

Blessèd are the cheesemakers

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By *andyfloss2000Woman over a year ago

ashford

"CIS is an invention of attention seeking people that want to put everybody in a box to enhance their percieved identity.

You are a Woman, that's it. We are men & women, anything else is what someone pretends to be & wants the rest of us to join in.

I won't but people pretending does me no harm so I wish them no ill will. Just won't call a man a woman or vice versa.

I disagree that it’s the invention of people seeking attention and I think if you wish them no ill will and they do you no harm, then you should call them by the pronouns they wish you to.

I and many won't accept it, live your life & don't be so arrogant to think you can enforce your wishes on others over fact."

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By *ittle Miss BipolarWoman over a year ago

Up My Own Arse Apparently

"Do any trans people on here accept that people might have concerns that don't stem from hate?

If so, do you have any solutions or safe guards for any of the issues that are often raise?bathrooms: unisex cubicles for all. They then become no less dangerous than outside.

Prisons: gender as at point of crime avoids the recent Scottish case.

Refuges: right to refuse if the person has criminal conviction relating to violence or sex.

As above: you are largely seeking to mitigate against men gaming the system. Afaik, trans women present no extra risk versus women. Especially in non criminal situations. "

Transwomen present the exact same risk.

And there is no full proof way to distinguish between a "cis" man and a trans woman.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Do any trans people on here accept that people might have concerns that don't stem from hate?

If so, do you have any solutions or safe guards for any of the issues that are often raise?bathrooms: unisex cubicles for all. They then become no less dangerous than outside.

Prisons: gender as at point of crime avoids the recent Scottish case.

Refuges: right to refuse if the person has criminal conviction relating to violence or sex.

As above: you are largely seeking to mitigate against men gaming the system. Afaik, trans women present no extra risk versus women. Especially in non criminal situations.

Transwomen present the exact same risk.

And there is no full proof way to distinguish between a "cis" man and a trans woman."

Statistically ‘cis’ men are the most dangerous group of people in society both towards men and women. Trans women are statistically the safest group of people when it comes to violent crime. I’d rather be locked up, share a bathroom, walk down a dark street with ten trans women than one cis man

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By *ornyhertscouple41Couple over a year ago

Stevenage

There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Do any trans people on here accept that people might have concerns that don't stem from hate?

If so, do you have any solutions or safe guards for any of the issues that are often raise?bathrooms: unisex cubicles for all. They then become no less dangerous than outside.

Prisons: gender as at point of crime avoids the recent Scottish case.

Refuges: right to refuse if the person has criminal conviction relating to violence or sex.

As above: you are largely seeking to mitigate against men gaming the system. Afaik, trans women present no extra risk versus women. Especially in non criminal situations.

Transwomen present the exact same risk.

And there is no full proof way to distinguish between a "cis" man and a trans woman."
do you mean they present the exact same risk as the averagean or the exact same risk as a man gaining the system?

The former may be true. The latter almost self evidently false. Unless trans women are close to a 100pc risk.

There's also probably little difference between many trans women and cis women. I suspect you've shared a bathroom, train, or a room without knowing.

I get the concerns about safety, especially if you've been subject to violence. If you have PTSD you're likely alert to all dangers. However are you scared of trans women themsleves or the men pretending to be trans?

That's very important to be clear in my mind before one can have a discussion.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I wonder what age it is that people realise there's a way to have an opinion/disagree with something without being disrespectful?

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By *inister_SpinsterWoman over a year ago

North West

"There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it"

Not strictly true. There's a whole blend of permutations on that.

TED Radio Hour "the Biology of Sex" is an interesting listen. It explains more on the nuance of biological sex.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it

Not strictly true. There's a whole blend of permutations on that.

TED Radio Hour "the Biology of Sex" is an interesting listen. It explains more on the nuance of biological sex. "

No, there are just the two. Someone writing a book doesn't change that & people screaming & kicking doesn't either.

Nothing has changed in biology it's just people wanting to be different & having convinced themselves they are hit the brick wall when trying to convince the vast majority.

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By *inister_SpinsterWoman over a year ago

North West

"There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it

Not strictly true. There's a whole blend of permutations on that.

TED Radio Hour "the Biology of Sex" is an interesting listen. It explains more on the nuance of biological sex.

No, there are just the two. Someone writing a book doesn't change that & people screaming & kicking doesn't either.

Nothing has changed in biology it's just people wanting to be different & having convinced themselves they are hit the brick wall when trying to convince the vast majority."

There are about a dozen different conditions that blur the line between male and female. They’re known as disorders of sexual development or DSDs…. Altogether, DSDs occur as frequently as twins or red hair.”

So there's nuance, as previously stated. Go read, listen, learn.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it

Not strictly true. There's a whole blend of permutations on that.

TED Radio Hour "the Biology of Sex" is an interesting listen. It explains more on the nuance of biological sex.

No, there are just the two. Someone writing a book doesn't change that & people screaming & kicking doesn't either.

Nothing has changed in biology it's just people wanting to be different & having convinced themselves they are hit the brick wall when trying to convince the vast majority."

Yeah because I've gone through all the difficulties and issues associated with Transitioning just because I want to be 'different'.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it

Not strictly true. There's a whole blend of permutations on that.

TED Radio Hour "the Biology of Sex" is an interesting listen. It explains more on the nuance of biological sex.

No, there are just the two. Someone writing a book doesn't change that & people screaming & kicking doesn't either.

Nothing has changed in biology it's just people wanting to be different & having convinced themselves they are hit the brick wall when trying to convince the vast majority.

Yeah because I've gone through all the difficulties and issues associated with Transitioning just because I want to be 'different'.

Well you don't want to be the sex/gender you are so another one is a different one is it not?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it

Not strictly true. There's a whole blend of permutations on that.

TED Radio Hour "the Biology of Sex" is an interesting listen. It explains more on the nuance of biological sex.

No, there are just the two. Someone writing a book doesn't change that & people screaming & kicking doesn't either.

Nothing has changed in biology it's just people wanting to be different & having convinced themselves they are hit the brick wall when trying to convince the vast majority."
I would have said that too until I started reading how it all works.

I found the biology taught 30 years ago to kids aged 15 was simplified. Not surprising as an scientist will tell you that the first thing they tell you at uni is forget all the science you've been taught. It's wrong.

There isn't even perfect correlation between chromosomes (how we pretend we define sex) and generalia (how we actually define sex).

Our understanding of science (excuse the pun) evolves.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it

Not strictly true. There's a whole blend of permutations on that.

TED Radio Hour "the Biology of Sex" is an interesting listen. It explains more on the nuance of biological sex.

No, there are just the two. Someone writing a book doesn't change that & people screaming & kicking doesn't either.

Nothing has changed in biology it's just people wanting to be different & having convinced themselves they are hit the brick wall when trying to convince the vast majority.

Yeah because I've gone through all the difficulties and issues associated with Transitioning just because I want to be 'different'.

Well you don't want to be the sex/gender you are so another one is a different one is it not?"

We both know that's not the context in which you are using the word 'different'.

And I am Transitioning to be the gender I am, to be the real me.

I've read your comments here and on other similar threads so I am not going to get into any kind of debate with you.

There are plenty of resources you can look at, plenty of youtube channels by Transgender people explaining it if you really were open to learning/understanding with an open mind but, to me, it is quite obvious you are not.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

No, you are right. I,m not.

As I said much earlier on, it's a pretence. You may well be convincing yourself you are a different gender but you are not & it's impossible to be.

I appreciate you can mutilate your body but that's not going to change anything.

I hope you find happiness in your quest, if the world can except not everyone will play pretend and skirt around those people we can move forward but the trans community is wanting the acceptance it'll never receive if if laws change but no law will make Biology change.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

And by open you mean pretend, much like the overused be kind.

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By *uer MalusMan over a year ago

Narnia

You start with thing that triggers me most!

Why should I respect what you identify as?

The lunacy of that assumption requires political correctness and a bucket load of stupidity on my part. Further more, the sense on entitlement and delusion on the part of the person claiming and insisting that I validate it is unacceptable.

If you look like a boy or girl and I use the wrong pronouns, I get shit for it? F#€k that! Or you are born a gender/sex and you then you want to play dress-up and pretend and then I am expected to play along with the charade… again, without respect, F-off!

Just avoid me as you are going to be offended but science, common sense and I really don’t care…

"Gender is quite simply what you identify as and others should respect that identification.

What are your views on sex regarding medical identification? How do we identify/categorise sex.

Should the debate go ahead?

I'm a woman, a CIS woman. Let's remain respectful please."

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By *inister_SpinsterWoman over a year ago

North West

Biology is a science, laws are a human construct, and as an aside most laws are open to interpretation.

Through research we are constantly understanding more about humans and how we're made. So the binary division is an over simplification.

The biology of sex is real, but it’s extremely complicated, and there is sometimes no easy way to draw a line between the biologically male and female.

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By *nigmaschild300Man over a year ago

dunfermline

"There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it"

Closed mind that's never read anything non fiction

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"No, you are right. I,m not.

As I said much earlier on, it's a pretence. You may well be convincing yourself you are a different gender but you are not & it's impossible to be.

I appreciate you can mutilate your body but that's not going to change anything.

But also, one can discuss what in biology defines a man and women. Is it simply the biology of genetalia, or is it chromesones or is it more.

But it's all a bit academic. This isn't about labelling things correctly. It's about the experiences we allow people to have. And how much what they have in their pants dictate their lives.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

Gender, sex whatever. Gender is an invention to aid the pretence we have more than 2 sexes.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it

Closed mind that's never read anything non fiction "

Closed mind? You mean I won't play pretend, these posts are set to test the water & to encourage a debate in the hope of getting more on board but the silent majority or not so in my case won't play.

You feel your boots.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

All this arguing is getting us nowhere.My answer is to just take each day as it comes, people have their opinions, l don't want to change that ,their choice. Long as no one is abused in any way , l meet lots of people day to day, very rarely do l get any negativity , the only places l see it happening is on forums like this or behind my back in public, each to their own.l'm not dismissing any arguments either way.

As l'm a dedicated thread killer l hope this post clears it up but l doubt it !

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By *inister_SpinsterWoman over a year ago

North West

"No, you are right. I,m not.

As I said much earlier on, it's a pretence. You may well be convincing yourself you are a different gender but you are not & it's impossible to be.

I appreciate you can mutilate your body but that's not going to change anything.

But also, one can discuss what in biology defines a man and women. Is it simply the biology of genetalia, or is it chromesones or is it more.

But it's all a bit academic. This isn't about labelling things correctly. It's about the experiences we allow people to have. And how much what they have in their pants dictate their lives. "

I'm not using gender, I'm using biology, and it's not really about semantics it's about nuance.

The main gist of my messages is to ask people to look beyond simplistic models of A & B.

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By *otMe66Man over a year ago

Terra Firma

"No, you are right. I,m not.

As I said much earlier on, it's a pretence. You may well be convincing yourself you are a different gender but you are not & it's impossible to be.

I appreciate you can mutilate your body but that's not going to change anything.

But also, one can discuss what in biology defines a man and women. Is it simply the biology of genetalia, or is it chromesones or is it more.

But it's all a bit academic. This isn't about labelling things correctly. It's about the experiences we allow people to have. And how much what they have in their pants dictate their lives.

I'm not using gender, I'm using biology, and it's not really about semantics it's about nuance.

The main gist of my messages is to ask people to look beyond simplistic models of A & B. "

Sperm and egg, zygote are the starts of life. To make this happen opposite sex partners male and female with fully functioning reproductive organs need sexually reproduce. The process of reproduction will create either a male or female.

Unfortunately that process can go wrong and can produce male or female's with reproductive organ defects, does that make them not male or female? Is this accident in the process the basis of proof for the argument as to why a male or female born at birth, can physically transition into the opposite sex?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"No, you are right. I,m not.

As I said much earlier on, it's a pretence. You may well be convincing yourself you are a different gender but you are not & it's impossible to be.

I appreciate you can mutilate your body but that's not going to change anything.

But also, one can discuss what in biology defines a man and women. Is it simply the biology of genetalia, or is it chromesones or is it more.

But it's all a bit academic. This isn't about labelling things correctly. It's about the experiences we allow people to have. And how much what they have in their pants dictate their lives.

I'm not using gender, I'm using biology, and it's not really about semantics it's about nuance.

The main gist of my messages is to ask people to look beyond simplistic models of A & B. "
I suspect we are on similar pages. I don't think I quoted you tho !

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By *ornyhertscouple41Couple over a year ago

Stevenage

"There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it

Closed mind that's never read anything non fiction "

You're either born male or female. That's it

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By *izzmasterzeroMan over a year ago

Aberdeen

The thing about this subject is that nobody ever gave a fuck about it until they started shoving it down our throats. It's nothing new there has alway been trans people... they might have been more secretive about it and it wasn't really socially accepted but people still knew they existed and nobody cared. Now it's more accepted and now it's more common and still nobody gave a fuck. ...However trans people being acknowledged and accepted by the public wasnt enough and so they are trying to take over, shoving it in our faces turning their community into a joke, trans women claiming they have periods and can get pregnant and shit? Woman of the year is trans? That ridiculous Dylan Mulvany fool... it's all dumb dumb made up shit and common sense doesn't exist when it comes to this topic and we all have to pretend it's true. Now this silly shit is being forced onto our young children, in cartoons aimed at 4yr olds, drag queens half naked dancing in libraries... this is why people started kicking off about the subject, this is why people started speaking up about it.

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By *ustus555Couple over a year ago

NG 21

"There are only 2 genders. Male or female. That's it

Closed mind that's never read anything non fiction

Closed mind? You mean I won't play pretend, these posts are set to test the water & to encourage a debate in the hope of getting more on board but the silent majority or not so in my case won't play.

You feel your boots."

Well said.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Anyone should be able to choose their gender and identify how they want; it shouldn't bother anyone else.. least of all some speakers.

Do as you please as long as you're hurting no one

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