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Should nurses beable to strike?
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"No they shouldn't strike,nursing is a vocation not a job,they know the pay and conditions when starting. " Yeah!! They should sleep on the hospital corridors to save money on houses and be available for more shifts!! | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x" Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?  | |||
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"The term 'vocation' is bandied around as justification for poor pay. I'm not in healthcare but another 'vocational' profession. I don't see it as such. It's a job, I like it and I'm experienced and am good at it. Doesn't mean I should accept a shitty deal. People across these sectors are leaving in droves. To simply say 'if you can't hack it leave' is laughably simplistic. They are, hence the situation we're in. " This!!! | |||
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"No they shouldn't strike,nursing is a vocation not a job,they know the pay and conditions when starting. " It's a job, I was a nurse, midwife, Team lead then health & social care manager. My responsibility was vast, I have since retired. Nursing fu..ed up my body and mind. In my generation we had little career choices as a bright working class females, many started training at 18 yrs old - how can you know what a career will turn out to be, we change and so do our expectations. Nursing cannot retain younger people, women have more choices now. Nursing and midwifery are careers. All power to them | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. We should all strike more. Part of the reason things are so shitty at the moment is that we don't do it enough. One out, all out. " I’ll ask same to you regarding police & military then. Should they be allowed to strike? If so what about the repercussions if/when they did? | |||
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"No they shouldn't strike,nursing is a vocation not a job,they know the pay and conditions when starting. Yeah!! They should sleep on the hospital corridors to save money on houses and be available for more shifts!!" The ops question was should they strike? | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions? "Yes. Because striking is a last resort. We shouldn't be in a situation where people have to resort to strikes. But it should be everyone's right if pushed to it. Of course, it only applies to those in employment with organised unions - the rise of self-employment and the gig economy is a whole other pickle. | |||
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"Stiking is a right I guess. But it's only a right for those who can essentially hold us hostage - like nurses, doctors, train drivers, airport workers etc etc. If you're a butcher's apprentice or roof tiler you're knackered." Never actually considered that, but a very valid point!  | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions? "Why do you think so many are leaving and they're struggling with recruitment instead now? 
LvM | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
Yes. Because striking is a last resort. We shouldn't be in a situation where people have to resort to strikes. But it should be everyone's right if pushed to it.
Of course, it only applies to those in employment with organised unions - the rise of self-employment and the gig economy is a whole other pickle. "So what on earth would happen if let’s say the police downed tools for the weekend to protest? Or during a peace keeping mission the army were just like “nah, taking today off to protest over pay?”? | |||
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"The issue is they feel dangerously understaffed and better pay will attract more people to the job. The friends I have that are nurses accept the pay, the unpaid overtime, but when the situation affects their ability to care for patients safely then it’s got to change" So going on strike makes them care more or less for patients? And before anyone jumps in on me i believe our nurses shouldn't have to strike..pay nurses properly | |||
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"Jr Dr’s, Dr’s and Nurses all have blood on their hands. " and,moreover, so do the governments who have underfunded and pulled apart health & social care system in this country piece by piece capitalism is king now there's very little social about it any more and what there is will be gone in your children's lifetime, if not your own | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
Why do you think so many are leaving and they're struggling with recruitment instead now?
LvM"Oh I agree wholeheartedly, but to say they should strike is hugely narrow minded imo. | |||
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"The term 'vocation' is bandied around as justification for poor pay. I'm not in healthcare but another 'vocational' profession. I don't see it as such. It's a job, I like it and I'm experienced and am good at it. Doesn't mean I should accept a shitty deal. People across these sectors are leaving in droves. To simply say 'if you can't hack it leave' is laughably simplistic. They are, hence the situation we're in. " I agree totally with this. Very few are going it to the profession so numbers are falling and all the UK dose is import more foreign cheep labour rather then value what is all ready there. So I guess if NHS staff can't strick the only option is leave. How dose that help. | |||
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"FOR GOD’S SAKE: YES! Every working person should have the right to withhold their labour if their employer is not treating them fairly! How hard is it to understand that very basic right? Now move on "Please check my previous responses to similar and answer about police & military….or move on.  | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions? "For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles | |||
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" Jesus, some in here and in the country, need a reality check." I actually agree with this, but probably for the opposite reason.  | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles "Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict? | |||
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"I believe if you can't strike then you need protections in law. After all, we have the triple lock... (Off topic: why isn't this inflationary ?)" This is the sort of input I was hoping for. A bit of realism. | |||
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"FOR GOD’S SAKE: YES! Every working person should have the right to withhold their labour if their employer is not treating them fairly! How hard is it to understand that very basic right? Now move on "Therein lies the issue, ‘fairness’ is subject to opinion. One parties ‘fair’ , is another parties ‘unfair’. I say this whilst expressing no opinion of any specific dispute. | |||
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"Jr Dr’s, Dr’s and Nurses all have blood on their hands. You don’t go into the healthcare profession to make oodles of money" no but you do enter it and expected to be treated and payed well. | |||
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"Oh dear some people are really showing their truly undemocratic traits on here. I love the forums, it makes me see the kind of people I would want nothing to do with. People engrossed in so much political ideology and dogma that have forgotten about people, human rights and to be honest, kindness and fairness towards others. On that note, I am out as not keen on too much barking so early in the morning. "Can’t say I’ve seen any of that on this thread. | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. We should all strike more. Part of the reason things are so shitty at the moment is that we don't do it enough. One out, all out. I’ll ask same to you regarding police & military then. Should they be allowed to strike? If so what about the repercussions if/when they did?" yes they should repercussions will be on those in charge for failing | |||
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"No they shouldn't strike,nursing is a vocation not a job,they know the pay and conditions when starting. " Of course it’s a job. They knew the pay and conditions yes they have been arrived over many years | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. We should all strike more. Part of the reason things are so shitty at the moment is that we don't do it enough. One out, all out. I’ll ask same to you regarding police & military then. Should they be allowed to strike? If so what about the repercussions if/when they did?yes they should repercussions will be on those in charge for failing " No, it would be on the people and civilians affected by the strikes mostly. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
Yes. Because striking is a last resort. We shouldn't be in a situation where people have to resort to strikes. But it should be everyone's right if pushed to it.
Of course, it only applies to those in employment with organised unions - the rise of self-employment and the gig economy is a whole other pickle.
So what on earth would happen if let’s say the police downed tools for the weekend to protest? Or during a peace keeping mission the army were just like “nah, taking today off to protest over pay?”?"It would be pretty bloody disruptive. Kinda the point of a strike. When you've reached the point where nobody is listening to you, you've been undervalued and underpaid for years, apart from leaving you're backed into a corner. It's about rights for me. If you take that right away from some people because it's too disruptive, where do you stop with that argument? I don't believe the vast majority of people want to strike. But consistent underfunding, underinvestment and erosion of our public sector institutions has pushed us here. | |||
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"Jr Dr’s, Dr’s and Nurses all have blood on their hands. You don’t go into the healthcare profession to make oodles of money" They don't. The government who put them in that position in the first place has the blood on their hands....The NHS is on it's knees and people are ranging in the wrong direction | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?"The same as when all A&E nurses strike but there not wife left this morning at 6.30 to go and do a 13hour shift in A&E. So would be the same for the police & army they would have to keep a basic service. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
Yes. Because striking is a last resort. We shouldn't be in a situation where people have to resort to strikes. But it should be everyone's right if pushed to it.
Of course, it only applies to those in employment with organised unions - the rise of self-employment and the gig economy is a whole other pickle.
So what on earth would happen if let’s say the police downed tools for the weekend to protest? Or during a peace keeping mission the army were just like “nah, taking today off to protest over pay?”?
It would be pretty bloody disruptive. Kinda the point of a strike. When you've reached the point where nobody is listening to you, you've been undervalued and underpaid for years, apart from leaving you're backed into a corner.
It's about rights for me. If you take that right away from some people because it's too disruptive, where do you stop with that argument? I don't believe the vast majority of people want to strike. But consistent underfunding, underinvestment and erosion of our public sector institutions has pushed us here. "The thing is it wouldn’t just be disruptive if either took strike action. It would be bedlam and likely lives lost (particularly if forces decided to strike during conflict which is when stress & pay would be at the forefront of minds). | |||
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"I believe if you can't strike then you need protections in law. After all, we have the triple lock... (Off topic: why isn't this inflationary ?)" Protections in law... We are hugely behind on this with the rise of the gig economy. | |||
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"Jr Dr’s, Dr’s and Nurses all have blood on their hands. You don’t go into the healthcare profession to make oodles of money" I think you mean the Government. You go into healthcare like any other profession to be treated fairly and with respect. It’s a career not a hobby | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
Yes. Because striking is a last resort. We shouldn't be in a situation where people have to resort to strikes. But it should be everyone's right if pushed to it.
Of course, it only applies to those in employment with organised unions - the rise of self-employment and the gig economy is a whole other pickle.
So what on earth would happen if let’s say the police downed tools for the weekend to protest? Or during a peace keeping mission the army were just like “nah, taking today off to protest over pay?”?
It would be pretty bloody disruptive. Kinda the point of a strike. When you've reached the point where nobody is listening to you, you've been undervalued and underpaid for years, apart from leaving you're backed into a corner.
It's about rights for me. If you take that right away from some people because it's too disruptive, where do you stop with that argument? I don't believe the vast majority of people want to strike. But consistent underfunding, underinvestment and erosion of our public sector institutions has pushed us here.
The thing is it wouldn’t just be disruptive if either took strike action. It would be bedlam and likely lives lost (particularly if forces decided to strike during conflict which is when stress & pay would be at the forefront of minds).
"Are you looking to debate people's right to strike or just make a point about a hypothetical situation? | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. Otherwise what's the choice if you're not happy with the conditions and you aren't being listened to? Leaving. And then that leaves a permanent hole instead, with knock on, spiraling effects. Yes they chose the profession. They may have also chosen that profession twenty years ago when the pay was "good" but it hasn't risen since. And how is "they chose it" a defence for continually undervaluing any workforce? *puts soap box away* LvM" At last some sense ! | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The same as when all A&E nurses strike but there not wife left this morning at 6.30 to go and do a 13hour shift in A&E.
So would be the same for the police & army they would have to keep a basic service.
"Ok so only some people should be allowed to strike at any one time? Basic services should always be available? I could go with that, but would take a lot of power away from unions. It’s not an easy one to answer. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
Yes. Because striking is a last resort. We shouldn't be in a situation where people have to resort to strikes. But it should be everyone's right if pushed to it.
Of course, it only applies to those in employment with organised unions - the rise of self-employment and the gig economy is a whole other pickle.
So what on earth would happen if let’s say the police downed tools for the weekend to protest? Or during a peace keeping mission the army were just like “nah, taking today off to protest over pay?”?
It would be pretty bloody disruptive. Kinda the point of a strike. When you've reached the point where nobody is listening to you, you've been undervalued and underpaid for years, apart from leaving you're backed into a corner.
It's about rights for me. If you take that right away from some people because it's too disruptive, where do you stop with that argument? I don't believe the vast majority of people want to strike. But consistent underfunding, underinvestment and erosion of our public sector institutions has pushed us here.
The thing is it wouldn’t just be disruptive if either took strike action. It would be bedlam and likely lives lost (particularly if forces decided to strike during conflict which is when stress & pay would be at the forefront of minds).
Are you looking to debate people's right to strike or just make a point about a hypothetical situation? "Both as they’re interlinked. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?"The police, well where to begin. My ex worked in the Met, he was an ex soldier. He got free travel in London, free prescriptions, housing or housing allowance, overtime where alot of it was sitting around. I appreciate these terms & conditions have changed but, the police could have stood together. He went in with 6 O levels, some had very little in the way of qualifications. Whilst in the army he was housed, fed and had a subsidised naff. | |||
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"The day we aren't allowed to strike is a slippery slope for this country. I totally support everyone's right to strike and have access to a good living wage, its the least we all deserve. The media like to broadcast the strikes in a negative light to turn the public against each other, like they have for years with many different issues. If we are all pointing fingers at each other, we aren't pointing the finger at the people who caused all this mess in the first place. We all need to support each other and stop accepting our people struggling when the richest are thriving. " This | |||
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"I believe if you can't strike then you need protections in law. After all, we have the triple lock... (Off topic: why isn't this inflationary ?) This is the sort of input I was hoping for. A bit of realism. "I think for nurses the nail was 10% for benifit / out of work but 3% for Nurses and as said triple lock on penchens Why not 10% to all? | |||
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"Let's hope all the people who support the strikes don't have a life or death medical emergency whilst the strikes are on and someone they love life is in jeopardy because it would be awful for them to have to get off their high horse." Do you honestly believe doctors and nurses have left critical care units unstaffed , give your head a wobble  | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The police, well where to begin. My ex worked in the Met, he was an ex soldier. He got free travel in London, free prescriptions, housing or housing allowance, overtime where alot of it was sitting around. I appreciate these terms & conditions have changed but, the police could have stood together. He went in with 6 O levels, some had very little in the way of qualifications. Whilst in the army he was housed, fed and had a subsidised naff."Didn’t really answer my question tbh. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The police, well where to begin. My ex worked in the Met, he was an ex soldier. He got free travel in London, free prescriptions, housing or housing allowance, overtime where alot of it was sitting around. I appreciate these terms & conditions have changed but, the police could have stood together. He went in with 6 O levels, some had very little in the way of qualifications. Whilst in the army he was housed, fed and had a subsidised naff.
Didn’t really answer my question tbh."True though. | |||
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"Let's hope all the people who support the strikes don't have a life or death medical emergency whilst the strikes are on and someone they love life is in jeopardy because it would be awful for them to have to get off their high horse." flip side of the coin. Let's hope the people who don't support the strikes, don't have a loved one who has an illness caught too late because of long waiting lists and lack of nurses as they have all found other jobs. It's not black and white. And those who deal with life and death don't take this decision lightly. It's possibly why we should consider not giving them consistent real term pay cuts and stretch their working conditions... Their job has real life consequences. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The police, well where to begin. My ex worked in the Met, he was an ex soldier. He got free travel in London, free prescriptions, housing or housing allowance, overtime where alot of it was sitting around. I appreciate these terms & conditions have changed but, the police could have stood together. He went in with 6 O levels, some had very little in the way of qualifications. Whilst in the army he was housed, fed and had a subsidised naff.
Didn’t really answer my question tbh.
True though. "Would be more than happy to get into it on a separate post if you wanted to start? | |||
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" It's possibly why we should consider not giving them consistent real term pay cuts and stretch their working conditions... Their job has real life consequences. " Completely agree. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
Yes. Because striking is a last resort. We shouldn't be in a situation where people have to resort to strikes. But it should be everyone's right if pushed to it.
Of course, it only applies to those in employment with organised unions - the rise of self-employment and the gig economy is a whole other pickle.
So what on earth would happen if let’s say the police downed tools for the weekend to protest? Or during a peace keeping mission the army were just like “nah, taking today off to protest over pay?”?
It would be pretty bloody disruptive. Kinda the point of a strike. When you've reached the point where nobody is listening to you, you've been undervalued and underpaid for years, apart from leaving you're backed into a corner.
It's about rights for me. If you take that right away from some people because it's too disruptive, where do you stop with that argument? I don't believe the vast majority of people want to strike. But consistent underfunding, underinvestment and erosion of our public sector institutions has pushed us here.
The thing is it wouldn’t just be disruptive if either took strike action. It would be bedlam and likely lives lost (particularly if forces decided to strike during conflict which is when stress & pay would be at the forefront of minds).
Are you looking to debate people's right to strike or just make a point about a hypothetical situation?
Both as they’re interlinked. "Call me naive, but I start with rights and treating people decently and go from there. Hypothetical disruption only occurs if we mess up the first part. | |||
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" Call me naive, but I start with rights and treating people decently and go from there. Hypothetical disruption only occurs if we mess up the first part. " Very naive. It’s not hypothetical to ask what would happen if the police took strike action is it? I think EVERYONE would agree people should be paid and treated decently. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The police, well where to begin. My ex worked in the Met, he was an ex soldier. He got free travel in London, free prescriptions, housing or housing allowance, overtime where alot of it was sitting around. I appreciate these terms & conditions have changed but, the police could have stood together. He went in with 6 O levels, some had very little in the way of qualifications. Whilst in the army he was housed, fed and had a subsidised naff.
Didn’t really answer my question tbh.
True though.
Would be more than happy to get into it on a separate post if you wanted to start?"Start what, I'm stating facts | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The police, well where to begin. My ex worked in the Met, he was an ex soldier. He got free travel in London, free prescriptions, housing or housing allowance, overtime where alot of it was sitting around. I appreciate these terms & conditions have changed but, the police could have stood together. He went in with 6 O levels, some had very little in the way of qualifications. Whilst in the army he was housed, fed and had a subsidised naff.
Didn’t really answer my question tbh.
True though.
Would be more than happy to get into it on a separate post if you wanted to start?
Start what, I'm stating facts"A discussion/debate into what you put. More than happy to take to message too if needed.
With that I’ll leave it there as it’s not what this thread is about. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The same as when all A&E nurses strike but there not wife left this morning at 6.30 to go and do a 13hour shift in A&E.
So would be the same for the police & army they would have to keep a basic service.
Ok so only some people should be allowed to strike at any one time? Basic services should always be available?
I could go with that, but would take a lot of power away from unions. It’s not an easy one to answer."But that is what is happening but the Government are upping the stakes all the time it might end up with all Nurses and J Dr out and A&E closed then what would that not be the governments fault? | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The same as when all A&E nurses strike but there not wife left this morning at 6.30 to go and do a 13hour shift in A&E.
So would be the same for the police & army they would have to keep a basic service.
"They are already running a basic service though. How many police officers do you think a town with a population of 10,000 would need as standard? My fwb works for WMP, he got posted to help out in a Shropshire town known for county lines, just him and another officer there in a town of 10,000. That's not even a basic service. That's substandard and dangerous and it's the same all around the country | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The same as when all A&E nurses strike but there not wife left this morning at 6.30 to go and do a 13hour shift in A&E.
So would be the same for the police & army they would have to keep a basic service.
They are already running a basic service though. How many police officers do you think a town with a population of 10,000 would need as standard?
My fwb works for WMP, he got posted to help out in a Shropshire town known for county lines, just him and another officer there in a town of 10,000. That's not even a basic service. That's substandard and dangerous and it's the same all around the country"I don’t get your point I’m afraid. If anything it means should they be allowed to strike it would cause more disruption. | |||
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" Call me naive, but I start with rights and treating people decently and go from there. Hypothetical disruption only occurs if we mess up the first part. Very naive. It’s not hypothetical to ask what would happen if the police took strike action is it? I think EVERYONE would agree people should be paid and treated decently." Reading the latest reports and having first hand experience of thirty years, some sections of society could say bring it on. The police in many instances leave a lot to be desired. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The same as when all A&E nurses strike but there not wife left this morning at 6.30 to go and do a 13hour shift in A&E.
So would be the same for the police & army they would have to keep a basic service.
They are already running a basic service though. How many police officers do you think a town with a population of 10,000 would need as standard?
My fwb works for WMP, he got posted to help out in a Shropshire town known for county lines, just him and another officer there in a town of 10,000. That's not even a basic service. That's substandard and dangerous and it's the same all around the country
I don’t get your point I’m afraid. If anything it means should they be allowed to strike it would cause more disruption."I'm not expecting you too am I. My response was to someone else who said Police and Army should run a basic service. My point is how basic does it get. | |||
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"Let's hope all the people who support the strikes don't have a life or death medical emergency whilst the strikes are on and someone they love life is in jeopardy because it would be awful for them to have to get off their high horse. Do you honestly believe doctors and nurses have left critical care units unstaffed , give your head a wobble "Not yet but I could happen. The point is how to fund it surely. | |||
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" Call me naive, but I start with rights and treating people decently and go from there. Hypothetical disruption only occurs if we mess up the first part. Very naive. It’s not hypothetical to ask what would happen if the police took strike action is it? I think EVERYONE would agree people should be paid and treated decently." That's the first time you've acknowledged that point. Your strikes remain hypothetical, because of the law in this country. So far you've focused on that rather than addressing the root causes of strikes. I think it's fair to say we differ | |||
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" Call me naive, but I start with rights and treating people decently and go from there. Hypothetical disruption only occurs if we mess up the first part. Very naive. It’s not hypothetical to ask what would happen if the police took strike action is it? I think EVERYONE would agree people should be paid and treated decently. That's the first time you've acknowledged that point. Your strikes remain hypothetical, because of the law in this country. So far you've focused on that rather than addressing the root causes of strikes. I think it's fair to say we differ "Didn’t think it needed acknowledging tbh. No one would say people shouldn’t be treated decently. The post wasn’t about the root causes, it was “Should nurses be able to strike?” Which opens up an interesting debate to which my points are more than valid. You’re right, we definitely differ and that’s cool as that’s how progress/change happens. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The same as when all A&E nurses strike but there not wife left this morning at 6.30 to go and do a 13hour shift in A&E.
So would be the same for the police & army they would have to keep a basic service.
They are already running a basic service though. How many police officers do you think a town with a population of 10,000 would need as standard?
My fwb works for WMP, he got posted to help out in a Shropshire town known for county lines, just him and another officer there in a town of 10,000. That's not even a basic service. That's substandard and dangerous and it's the same all around the country
I don’t get your point I’m afraid. If anything it means should they be allowed to strike it would cause more disruption.
I'm not expecting you too am I. My response was to someone else who said Police and Army should run a basic service. My point is how basic does it get.
"Police would only attend 999 calls for the strike period. Forces well guess no traning for the strike period. To be honest if there not on deployment I don't know what they do I guess they could strike next weekend to piss the king off. | |||
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"No they shouldn't strike,nursing is a vocation not a job,they know the pay and conditions when starting. " And they also knew they had the right to strike when they started. Are you suggesting a changing all their contracts? Good luck getting that through court. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The same as when all A&E nurses strike but there not wife left this morning at 6.30 to go and do a 13hour shift in A&E.
So would be the same for the police & army they would have to keep a basic service.
They are already running a basic service though. How many police officers do you think a town with a population of 10,000 would need as standard?
My fwb works for WMP, he got posted to help out in a Shropshire town known for county lines, just him and another officer there in a town of 10,000. That's not even a basic service. That's substandard and dangerous and it's the same all around the country
I don’t get your point I’m afraid. If anything it means should they be allowed to strike it would cause more disruption.
I'm not expecting you too am I. My response was to someone else who said Police and Army should run a basic service. My point is how basic does it get.
Police would only attend 999 calls for the strike period.
Forces well guess no traning for the strike period. To be honest if there not on deployment I don't know what they do I guess they could strike next weekend to piss the king off. "So only certain members can strike and at certain times? I’m sure you can start to see where the logic falters a bit. | |||
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"No they shouldn't strike,nursing is a vocation not a job,they know the pay and conditions when starting. And they also knew they had the right to strike when they started. Are you suggesting a changing all their contracts? Good luck getting that through court." Love a logical rebuttal! | |||
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"Jr Dr’s, Dr’s and Nurses all have blood on their hands. You don’t go into the healthcare profession to make oodles of money" Well actually, that's precisely the reason that quite a lot do. | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. We should all strike more. Part of the reason things are so shitty at the moment is that we don't do it enough. One out, all out. I’ll ask same to you regarding police & military then. Should they be allowed to strike? If so what about the repercussions if/when they did?" Yes they should be allowed to. What are the repercussions? A better deal for them! | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. We should all strike more. Part of the reason things are so shitty at the moment is that we don't do it enough. One out, all out. I’ll ask same to you regarding police & military then. Should they be allowed to strike? If so what about the repercussions if/when they did? Yes they should be allowed to. What are the repercussions? A better deal for them!" You don’t think there would be repercussions if there were no police/army for x period of time? That’s just wishful thinking. | |||
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"It's clearly about pay and not as much about working environments and the other stuff they want you to believe. They were made a pay offer and turned it down. I think anyone working in the NHS shouldn't be allowed to strike just like the police aren't." The question is should the police be able to strike? They are in other countries. | |||
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They not striking for fun, they striking for a reason. Yes it might be an inconvenience to some people but if we were in their shoes we would be striking too. Word of the day: Empathy  | |||
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"Have a look at the money the head of unions are on ,£100,000 they are comfy ,.." What's your point? I know full well how much the head of my union is on, but I still pay my subs. We have a large amount of staff (10%) going on 90 days notice next week. The union gets those people a very good deal on their redundancy package, as they have over the years on wages, H&S, training etc. We know what we pay them, and we know we get our moneys worth. | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
For me yes Both should be allowed to strike as said if not the only option is leave. And retention in the police is poor at best I would guess it costs alot to train these people then they up and leave. For better roles
Fair play for answering honestly bud. What do you think would happen if the police downed tools for the weekend, or the army say mid conflict?
The same as when all A&E nurses strike but there not wife left this morning at 6.30 to go and do a 13hour shift in A&E.
So would be the same for the police & army they would have to keep a basic service.
They are already running a basic service though. How many police officers do you think a town with a population of 10,000 would need as standard?
My fwb works for WMP, he got posted to help out in a Shropshire town known for county lines, just him and another officer there in a town of 10,000. That's not even a basic service. That's substandard and dangerous and it's the same all around the country
I don’t get your point I’m afraid. If anything it means should they be allowed to strike it would cause more disruption.
I'm not expecting you too am I. My response was to someone else who said Police and Army should run a basic service. My point is how basic does it get.
Police would only attend 999 calls for the strike period.
Forces well guess no traning for the strike period. To be honest if there not on deployment I don't know what they do I guess they could strike next weekend to piss the king off. "Haaaa haa, that would be an improvement on service around here. | |||
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"Have a look at the money the head of unions are on ,£100,000 they are comfy ,.." Out of interest, what should they be paid? | |||
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" Forces well guess no traning for the strike period. To be honest if there not on deployment I don't know what they do I guess they could strike next weekend to piss the king off. " So no peacekeeping in Africa, no wildlife protection, no supporting Ukraine, no Cyprus border patrols etc? It’s just not as easy as people think when suggesting everyone should be able to strike is the point I’m trying to establish. | |||
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"Of course they should. I heard that they started the strike yesterday and it ends tonight at 12. NHS organisations across the country will face significant disruption as the rcn holds industrial action Do you know why they are on strike, is it because of pay or the working hours?" Both!! Pay is pretty crap for what they are expected do... I wholeheartedly support the nurses and the junior doctors strikes | |||
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"Of course they should. I heard that they started the strike yesterday and it ends tonight at 12. NHS organisations across the country will face significant disruption as the rcn holds industrial action Do you know why they are on strike, is it because of pay or the working hours? Both!! Pay is pretty crap for what they are expected do... I wholeheartedly support the nurses and the junior doctors strikes" It’s absolutely horrific for what they do! I can’t justify how I get paid what I do while they get paid so little.  | |||
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"It's clearly about pay and not as much about working environments and the other stuff they want you to believe. They were made a pay offer and turned it down. I think anyone working in the NHS shouldn't be allowed to strike just like the police aren't." Yes. I also think that it is more about pay as well | |||
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"Quite clearly doctors and nurses shouldn't be allowed to strike. They should recognise that the only way to make money is in the private sector, and leave. Police and military too. They should be grateful, and if they can't, they should get into marketing. Anyone who has an accident, gives birth, is a victim of crime, wants to fight wars, gets old, has a medical condition etc - they should exercise personal responsibility like all the person who realise that vocations are for suckers who like being homeless." Can’t say I agree with the way you put it, but do with a lot of what you said. | |||
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"Teachers get £42k in Scotland. Nurses get £32k. Both hugely important jobs, but why the disparity in pay? It’s not fair. " Supply & demand at a guess. | |||
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"Quite clearly doctors and nurses shouldn't be allowed to strike. They should recognise that the only way to make money is in the private sector, and leave. Police and military too. They should be grateful, and if they can't, they should get into marketing. Anyone who has an accident, gives birth, is a victim of crime, wants to fight wars, gets old, has a medical condition etc - they should exercise personal responsibility like all the person who realise that vocations are for suckers who like being homeless." So if I was d*unk driving and drive in to you and your hurt its up to you to exercise personal responsibility for you. | |||
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"Quite clearly doctors and nurses shouldn't be allowed to strike. They should recognise that the only way to make money is in the private sector, and leave. Police and military too. They should be grateful, and if they can't, they should get into marketing. Anyone who has an accident, gives birth, is a victim of crime, wants to fight wars, gets old, has a medical condition etc - they should exercise personal responsibility like all the person who realise that vocations are for suckers who like being homeless. Can’t say I agree with the way you put it, but do with a lot of what you said. ""Sport RR bois" is way better than pay. Pay the police and troops a penny across a lifetime. They should be grateful! Midwives? We can't encourage reliance on public services. Giving birth is the ultimate exercise in scrounging, expecting medical care. Pfft. | |||
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"Quite clearly doctors and nurses shouldn't be allowed to strike. They should recognise that the only way to make money is in the private sector, and leave. Police and military too. They should be grateful, and if they can't, they should get into marketing. Anyone who has an accident, gives birth, is a victim of crime, wants to fight wars, gets old, has a medical condition etc - they should exercise personal responsibility like all the person who realise that vocations are for suckers who like being homeless. Can’t say I agree with the way you put it, but do with a lot of what you said.
"Sport RR bois" is way better than pay. Pay the police and troops a penny across a lifetime. They should be grateful!
Midwives? We can't encourage reliance on public services. Giving birth is the ultimate exercise in scrounging, expecting medical care. Pfft."I take back what I said about agreeing with you. | |||
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"It's there right to do as they please my question is that if someone dies as a result of someone in particular striking instead of being on shift should they be arrested " So if there are short staffed how should be held accountable the few doing there best. Or the trust be accountable for letting in more then they can cope with. If A&E is full should they close till beds are free. | |||
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"Quite clearly doctors and nurses shouldn't be allowed to strike. They should recognise that the only way to make money is in the private sector, and leave. Police and military too. They should be grateful, and if they can't, they should get into marketing. Anyone who has an accident, gives birth, is a victim of crime, wants to fight wars, gets old, has a medical condition etc - they should exercise personal responsibility like all the person who realise that vocations are for suckers who like being homeless. So if I was d*unk driving and drive in to you and your hurt its up to you to exercise personal responsibility for you. " Yup! Vocations are about warm and fuzzies only. Rational people sell foundation. Maybe you shouldn't be in that car. What were you wearing to deserve it? | |||
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" Yup! Vocations are about warm and fuzzies only. Rational people sell foundation. Maybe you shouldn't be in that car. What were you wearing to deserve it?" So what happens when you or your family get sick, have a crime committed against you, get stuck in a fire etc? | |||
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"Quite clearly doctors and nurses shouldn't be allowed to strike. They should recognise that the only way to make money is in the private sector, and leave. Police and military too. They should be grateful, and if they can't, they should get into marketing. Anyone who has an accident, gives birth, is a victim of crime, wants to fight wars, gets old, has a medical condition etc - they should exercise personal responsibility like all the person who realise that vocations are for suckers who like being homeless. Can’t say I agree with the way you put it, but do with a lot of what you said.
"Sport RR bois" is way better than pay. Pay the police and troops a penny across a lifetime. They should be grateful!
Midwives? We can't encourage reliance on public services. Giving birth is the ultimate exercise in scrounging, expecting medical care. Pfft.
I take back what I said about agreeing with you. "Don't get me started on teachers. Why the fuck aren't four year olds filling the labour crisis? And for well over a decade? Children are useless eaters and should be eliminated from humanity. If you want to become literate, get a job that isn't so physically exhausting. These toddlers don't know they're born! | |||
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"Of course they should. I heard that they started the strike yesterday and it ends tonight at 12. NHS organisations across the country will face significant disruption as the rcn holds industrial action Do you know why they are on strike, is it because of pay or the working hours?" The government will have you believe it is all about pay and conditions. But it is also about patient care, I noticed that at the start of their strikes patient care was a reason to strike and also the future of the NHS as it is at breaking point. Private investment companies will not invest in an NHS where they cannot make a profit, i.e not paying the staff fair wages, and giving to shareholders their huge dividends. This is about and always has been setting up the NHS as a investment tool mainly for the hedgefunds to invest in, Staff are cheap labour, who work long hours and are subsidised by benefits and foodbanks. To pay them over inflation wages would put off private investment, but I say that's a good things as it would only end up as lives over profit again. | |||
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" Yup! Vocations are about warm and fuzzies only. Rational people sell foundation. Maybe you shouldn't be in that car. What were you wearing to deserve it? So what happens when you or your family get sick, have a crime committed against you, get stuck in a fire etc?" I recognise that vocations can't pay because they're about love. As love doesn't pay the bills, and everyone has left, I pray to the god I don't believe in that it's not too horrific, because I'm on my own | |||
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"Quite clearly doctors and nurses shouldn't be allowed to strike. They should recognise that the only way to make money is in the private sector, and leave. Police and military too. They should be grateful, and if they can't, they should get into marketing. Anyone who has an accident, gives birth, is a victim of crime, wants to fight wars, gets old, has a medical condition etc - they should exercise personal responsibility like all the person who realise that vocations are for suckers who like being homeless. Can’t say I agree with the way you put it, but do with a lot of what you said.
"Sport RR bois" is way better than pay. Pay the police and troops a penny across a lifetime. They should be grateful!
Midwives? We can't encourage reliance on public services. Giving birth is the ultimate exercise in scrounging, expecting medical care. Pfft.
I take back what I said about agreeing with you.
Don't get me started on teachers. Why the fuck aren't four year olds filling the labour crisis? And for well over a decade? Children are useless eaters and should be eliminated from humanity. If you want to become literate, get a job that isn't so physically exhausting. These toddlers don't know they're born!"Ah I totally missed the sarcasm…still hungover so I blame that. | |||
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"Quite clearly doctors and nurses shouldn't be allowed to strike. They should recognise that the only way to make money is in the private sector, and leave. Police and military too. They should be grateful, and if they can't, they should get into marketing. Anyone who has an accident, gives birth, is a victim of crime, wants to fight wars, gets old, has a medical condition etc - they should exercise personal responsibility like all the person who realise that vocations are for suckers who like being homeless. Can’t say I agree with the way you put it, but do with a lot of what you said.
"Sport RR bois" is way better than pay. Pay the police and troops a penny across a lifetime. They should be grateful!
Midwives? We can't encourage reliance on public services. Giving birth is the ultimate exercise in scrounging, expecting medical care. Pfft.
I take back what I said about agreeing with you.
Don't get me started on teachers. Why the fuck aren't four year olds filling the labour crisis? And for well over a decade? Children are useless eaters and should be eliminated from humanity. If you want to become literate, get a job that isn't so physically exhausting. These toddlers don't know they're born!
Ah I totally missed the sarcasm…still hungover so I blame that. "As a childless woman in a country that's struggling to function, I see the light and your wisdom. I saw one commentator point out that since he'd started, junior doctors had lost 45% of their wages, plus accommodation, in real terms. Make it 450%! These fuckers should pay us for being so stupid as to want to help people. | |||
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"Quite clearly doctors and nurses shouldn't be allowed to strike. They should recognise that the only way to make money is in the private sector, and leave. Police and military too. They should be grateful, and if they can't, they should get into marketing. Anyone who has an accident, gives birth, is a victim of crime, wants to fight wars, gets old, has a medical condition etc - they should exercise personal responsibility like all the person who realise that vocations are for suckers who like being homeless. Can’t say I agree with the way you put it, but do with a lot of what you said.
"Sport RR bois" is way better than pay. Pay the police and troops a penny across a lifetime. They should be grateful!
Midwives? We can't encourage reliance on public services. Giving birth is the ultimate exercise in scrounging, expecting medical care. Pfft.
I take back what I said about agreeing with you.
Don't get me started on teachers. Why the fuck aren't four year olds filling the labour crisis? And for well over a decade? Children are useless eaters and should be eliminated from humanity. If you want to become literate, get a job that isn't so physically exhausting. These toddlers don't know they're born!
Ah I totally missed the sarcasm…still hungover so I blame that.
As a childless woman in a country that's struggling to function, I see the light and your wisdom. I saw one commentator point out that since he'd started, junior doctors had lost 45% of their wages, plus accommodation, in real terms. Make it 450%! These fuckers should pay us for being so stupid as to want to help people. "The sarcasm has made it hard for me to decipher your point I’m afraid. | |||
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"Yes,as a healthcare worker I have seen the conditions on the wards and fully support them. Its not just about pay ,but lack of staffing too,which means they miss breaks or have to stay late to finish tasks/documentation and it affects patients safety too." Day in, day out.....it's relentless. | |||
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"Quite clearly doctors and nurses shouldn't be allowed to strike. They should recognise that the only way to make money is in the private sector, and leave. Police and military too. They should be grateful, and if they can't, they should get into marketing. Anyone who has an accident, gives birth, is a victim of crime, wants to fight wars, gets old, has a medical condition etc - they should exercise personal responsibility like all the person who realise that vocations are for suckers who like being homeless. Can’t say I agree with the way you put it, but do with a lot of what you said.
"Sport RR bois" is way better than pay. Pay the police and troops a penny across a lifetime. They should be grateful!
Midwives? We can't encourage reliance on public services. Giving birth is the ultimate exercise in scrounging, expecting medical care. Pfft.
I take back what I said about agreeing with you.
Don't get me started on teachers. Why the fuck aren't four year olds filling the labour crisis? And for well over a decade? Children are useless eaters and should be eliminated from humanity. If you want to become literate, get a job that isn't so physically exhausting. These toddlers don't know they're born!
Ah I totally missed the sarcasm…still hungover so I blame that.
As a childless woman in a country that's struggling to function, I see the light and your wisdom. I saw one commentator point out that since he'd started, junior doctors had lost 45% of their wages, plus accommodation, in real terms. Make it 450%! These fuckers should pay us for being so stupid as to want to help people.
The sarcasm has made it hard for me to decipher your point I’m afraid. "It's all been that. And scarily, it's not for others on this thread. | |||
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"Thank you for being the heroes of the pandemic but you're not allowed to strike for better pay and / or conditions? It is every worker's right to down tools in protest and workers who condemn fellow workers - be they nurses, fire brigade or teachers or anyone else - for striking, play straight into the hands of the establishment and the privileged elite of the UK - because they are the REAL reason why there is so much inequality. The more people who wake up to that fact, the better we'll be as a nation. " In an ideal word perhaps, but alas there are significant repercussions if certain professions went on strike. | |||
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"Quite clearly doctors and nurses shouldn't be allowed to strike. They should recognise that the only way to make money is in the private sector, and leave. Police and military too. They should be grateful, and if they can't, they should get into marketing. Anyone who has an accident, gives birth, is a victim of crime, wants to fight wars, gets old, has a medical condition etc - they should exercise personal responsibility like all the person who realise that vocations are for suckers who like being homeless. Can’t say I agree with the way you put it, but do with a lot of what you said.
"Sport RR bois" is way better than pay. Pay the police and troops a penny across a lifetime. They should be grateful!
Midwives? We can't encourage reliance on public services. Giving birth is the ultimate exercise in scrounging, expecting medical care. Pfft.
I take back what I said about agreeing with you.
Don't get me started on teachers. Why the fuck aren't four year olds filling the labour crisis? And for well over a decade? Children are useless eaters and should be eliminated from humanity. If you want to become literate, get a job that isn't so physically exhausting. These toddlers don't know they're born!
Ah I totally missed the sarcasm…still hungover so I blame that.
As a childless woman in a country that's struggling to function, I see the light and your wisdom. I saw one commentator point out that since he'd started, junior doctors had lost 45% of their wages, plus accommodation, in real terms. Make it 450%! These fuckers should pay us for being so stupid as to want to help people.
The sarcasm has made it hard for me to decipher your point I’m afraid. "I'm taking your point and others and extending it to its logical conclusion. If people want decent conditions, they should move to the private sector. People working in helping professions should take the thanks and forgo any money or benefits. If they can't, they're not fit for a profession. They should do important things, like sell shit you don't need. If you're a victim of crime, your house catches on fire, you get sick, you get old, you're a child, you give birth, you're in the surrounds of a terrorist attack - well, personal responsibility, innit. How dare you expect help from others? Worthless scroungers. | |||
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"Thank you for being the heroes of the pandemic but you're not allowed to strike for better pay and / or conditions? It is every worker's right to down tools in protest and workers who condemn fellow workers - be they nurses, fire brigade or teachers or anyone else - for striking, play straight into the hands of the establishment and the privileged elite of the UK - because they are the REAL reason why there is so much inequality. The more people who wake up to that fact, the better we'll be as a nation. In an ideal word perhaps, but alas there are significant repercussions if certain professions went on strike." Maybe those who don't want to give essential professionals fair pay should use their personal responsibility and consider that before screaming about decent pay and conditions being unfair | |||
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" I'm taking your point and others and extending it to its logical conclusion. If people want decent conditions, they should move to the private sector. People working in helping professions should take the thanks and forgo any money or benefits. If they can't, they're not fit for a profession. They should do important things, like sell shit you don't need. If you're a victim of crime, your house catches on fire, you get sick, you get old, you're a child, you give birth, you're in the surrounds of a terrorist attack - well, personal responsibility, innit. How dare you expect help from others? Worthless scroungers." I just tend to base my thoughts on things like this on reality instead of wishful thinking. Like I said there are real word repercussions if certain professions went on strike. That’s just a fact. | |||
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"Thank you for being the heroes of the pandemic but you're not allowed to strike for better pay and / or conditions? It is every worker's right to down tools in protest and workers who condemn fellow workers - be they nurses, fire brigade or teachers or anyone else - for striking, play straight into the hands of the establishment and the privileged elite of the UK - because they are the REAL reason why there is so much inequality. The more people who wake up to that fact, the better we'll be as a nation. In an ideal word perhaps, but alas there are significant repercussions if certain professions went on strike. Maybe those who don't want to give essential professionals fair pay should use their personal responsibility and consider that before screaming about decent pay and conditions being unfair "Seeing as that’s a response to me please do point out where I’ve said people don’t deserve fair pay… I’ll hazard a guess you won’t, but will instead Chuck in another ad hominem response. | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. We should all strike more. Part of the reason things are so shitty at the moment is that we don't do it enough. One out, all out. " Definitely this!! | |||
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" I'm taking your point and others and extending it to its logical conclusion. If people want decent conditions, they should move to the private sector. People working in helping professions should take the thanks and forgo any money or benefits. If they can't, they're not fit for a profession. They should do important things, like sell shit you don't need. If you're a victim of crime, your house catches on fire, you get sick, you get old, you're a child, you give birth, you're in the surrounds of a terrorist attack - well, personal responsibility, innit. How dare you expect help from others? Worthless scroungers. I just tend to base my thoughts on things like this on reality instead of wishful thinking. Like I said there are real word repercussions if certain professions went on strike. That’s just a fact." And there aren't real world repercussions of other countries poaching our medical staff and leading to further shortages (in a time when many countries face shortages and UK pay is a lot lower than places like Australia)? There aren't repercussions to nurses leaving an understaffed profession to work in Aldi? Nah. These people work on claps alone. They're machines, not people. It'll be fiiiiine | |||
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" I'm taking your point and others and extending it to its logical conclusion. If people want decent conditions, they should move to the private sector. People working in helping professions should take the thanks and forgo any money or benefits. If they can't, they're not fit for a profession. They should do important things, like sell shit you don't need. If you're a victim of crime, your house catches on fire, you get sick, you get old, you're a child, you give birth, you're in the surrounds of a terrorist attack - well, personal responsibility, innit. How dare you expect help from others? Worthless scroungers. I just tend to base my thoughts on things like this on reality instead of wishful thinking. Like I said there are real word repercussions if certain professions went on strike. That’s just a fact. And there aren't real world repercussions of other countries poaching our medical staff and leading to further shortages (in a time when many countries face shortages and UK pay is a lot lower than places like Australia)? There aren't repercussions to nurses leaving an understaffed profession to work in Aldi? Nah. These people work on claps alone. They're machines, not people. It'll be fiiiiine "So you agree there are genuine repercussions, thanks. | |||
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"Let's hope all the people who support the strikes don't have a life or death medical emergency whilst the strikes are on and someone they love life is in jeopardy because it would be awful for them to have to get off their high horse. Do you honestly believe doctors and nurses have left critical care units unstaffed , give your head a wobble "Spot on. Some people also seem eager to ignore the volume of deaths and lack of treatment the Government has caused by running the NHS down for years. Nurses are leaving in record numbers but hey let’s get mad at them for trying to improve things. | |||
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"Thank you for being the heroes of the pandemic but you're not allowed to strike for better pay and / or conditions? It is every worker's right to down tools in protest and workers who condemn fellow workers - be they nurses, fire brigade or teachers or anyone else - for striking, play straight into the hands of the establishment and the privileged elite of the UK - because they are the REAL reason why there is so much inequality. The more people who wake up to that fact, the better we'll be as a nation. In an ideal word perhaps, but alas there are significant repercussions if certain professions went on strike. Maybe those who don't want to give essential professionals fair pay should use their personal responsibility and consider that before screaming about decent pay and conditions being unfair
Seeing as that’s a response to me please do point out where I’ve said people don’t deserve fair pay…
I’ll hazard a guess you won’t, but will instead Chuck in another ad hominem response. "I'm responding to the argument in general, not you specifically. "Fair" pay is also a slippery slope. It can mean anything you want it to mean. Who's to say that a penny isn't "fair" pay for a lifetime in the military, to some people? I'd also love you to point out a single ad hom attack I've made. And hominem attacks are attacks on a person. I've attacked a broader argument with sarcasm, extending it to its logical conclusion. If vocations shouldn't strike when all other options fail, then they're entirely at the whims of those who pay them. They can take worsening conditions or leave. They're leaving. But we still need to accept that vocations are about love not money. Therefore any need for those services - again, childbirth, being a child, being a victim of crime or fire, etc - is just a lack of personal responsibility. Get on with fixing it yourself | |||
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"Thank you for being the heroes of the pandemic but you're not allowed to strike for better pay and / or conditions? It is every worker's right to down tools in protest and workers who condemn fellow workers - be they nurses, fire brigade or teachers or anyone else - for striking, play straight into the hands of the establishment and the privileged elite of the UK - because they are the REAL reason why there is so much inequality. The more people who wake up to that fact, the better we'll be as a nation. In an ideal word perhaps, but alas there are significant repercussions if certain professions went on strike. Maybe those who don't want to give essential professionals fair pay should use their personal responsibility and consider that before screaming about decent pay and conditions being unfair
Seeing as that’s a response to me please do point out where I’ve said people don’t deserve fair pay…
I’ll hazard a guess you won’t, but will instead Chuck in another ad hominem response.
I'm responding to the argument in general, not you specifically.
"Fair" pay is also a slippery slope. It can mean anything you want it to mean. Who's to say that a penny isn't "fair" pay for a lifetime in the military, to some people?
I'd also love you to point out a single ad hom attack I've made. And hominem attacks are attacks on a person. I've attacked a broader argument with sarcasm, extending it to its logical conclusion.
If vocations shouldn't strike when all other options fail, then they're entirely at the whims of those who pay them. They can take worsening conditions or leave. They're leaving. But we still need to accept that vocations are about love not money. Therefore any need for those services - again, childbirth, being a child, being a victim of crime or fire, etc - is just a lack of personal responsibility. Get on with fixing it yourself "When you stop with strawmanning and start debating in good faith I’ll happily engage. Until then have an awesome day matey. | |||
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" I'm taking your point and others and extending it to its logical conclusion. If people want decent conditions, they should move to the private sector. People working in helping professions should take the thanks and forgo any money or benefits. If they can't, they're not fit for a profession. They should do important things, like sell shit you don't need. If you're a victim of crime, your house catches on fire, you get sick, you get old, you're a child, you give birth, you're in the surrounds of a terrorist attack - well, personal responsibility, innit. How dare you expect help from others? Worthless scroungers. I just tend to base my thoughts on things like this on reality instead of wishful thinking. Like I said there are real word repercussions if certain professions went on strike. That’s just a fact. And there aren't real world repercussions of other countries poaching our medical staff and leading to further shortages (in a time when many countries face shortages and UK pay is a lot lower than places like Australia)? There aren't repercussions to nurses leaving an understaffed profession to work in Aldi? Nah. These people work on claps alone. They're machines, not people. It'll be fiiiiine
So you agree there are genuine repercussions, thanks. "I'm saying there are repercussions for not paying essential services better. (Hint: an ad hominem attack would be, at this point in the exchange, me drawing an inference about the value placed on teachers during your education ) | |||
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"Thank you for being the heroes of the pandemic but you're not allowed to strike for better pay and / or conditions? It is every worker's right to down tools in protest and workers who condemn fellow workers - be they nurses, fire brigade or teachers or anyone else - for striking, play straight into the hands of the establishment and the privileged elite of the UK - because they are the REAL reason why there is so much inequality. The more people who wake up to that fact, the better we'll be as a nation. In an ideal word perhaps, but alas there are significant repercussions if certain professions went on strike. Maybe those who don't want to give essential professionals fair pay should use their personal responsibility and consider that before screaming about decent pay and conditions being unfair
Seeing as that’s a response to me please do point out where I’ve said people don’t deserve fair pay…
I’ll hazard a guess you won’t, but will instead Chuck in another ad hominem response.
I'm responding to the argument in general, not you specifically.
"Fair" pay is also a slippery slope. It can mean anything you want it to mean. Who's to say that a penny isn't "fair" pay for a lifetime in the military, to some people?
I'd also love you to point out a single ad hom attack I've made. And hominem attacks are attacks on a person. I've attacked a broader argument with sarcasm, extending it to its logical conclusion.
If vocations shouldn't strike when all other options fail, then they're entirely at the whims of those who pay them. They can take worsening conditions or leave. They're leaving. But we still need to accept that vocations are about love not money. Therefore any need for those services - again, childbirth, being a child, being a victim of crime or fire, etc - is just a lack of personal responsibility. Get on with fixing it yourself
When you stop with strawmanning and start debating in good faith I’ll happily engage. Until then have an awesome day matey. "So there aren't currently nurses leaving to work in Aldi, as reported in the media, and attempts by the Australian government to poach medical staff we're already short of, leading to similar problems? "Strawmanning" doesn't mean "using sarcastic language and facts to make a point" | |||
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" I'm taking your point and others and extending it to its logical conclusion. If people want decent conditions, they should move to the private sector. People working in helping professions should take the thanks and forgo any money or benefits. If they can't, they're not fit for a profession. They should do important things, like sell shit you don't need. If you're a victim of crime, your house catches on fire, you get sick, you get old, you're a child, you give birth, you're in the surrounds of a terrorist attack - well, personal responsibility, innit. How dare you expect help from others? Worthless scroungers. I just tend to base my thoughts on things like this on reality instead of wishful thinking. Like I said there are real word repercussions if certain professions went on strike. That’s just a fact. And there aren't real world repercussions of other countries poaching our medical staff and leading to further shortages (in a time when many countries face shortages and UK pay is a lot lower than places like Australia)? There aren't repercussions to nurses leaving an understaffed profession to work in Aldi? Nah. These people work on claps alone. They're machines, not people. It'll be fiiiiine "Was a response to me so most definitely a strawman argument. Last one before I just leave you to it as you never debate in good faith and just wanted to clarify. Toodles | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. We should all strike more. Part of the reason things are so shitty at the moment is that we don't do it enough. One out, all out. " Exactly look at the French striking because of the retirement age | |||
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" I'm taking your point and others and extending it to its logical conclusion. If people want decent conditions, they should move to the private sector. People working in helping professions should take the thanks and forgo any money or benefits. If they can't, they're not fit for a profession. They should do important things, like sell shit you don't need. If you're a victim of crime, your house catches on fire, you get sick, you get old, you're a child, you give birth, you're in the surrounds of a terrorist attack - well, personal responsibility, innit. How dare you expect help from others? Worthless scroungers. I just tend to base my thoughts on things like this on reality instead of wishful thinking. Like I said there are real word repercussions if certain professions went on strike. That’s just a fact. And there aren't real world repercussions of other countries poaching our medical staff and leading to further shortages (in a time when many countries face shortages and UK pay is a lot lower than places like Australia)? There aren't repercussions to nurses leaving an understaffed profession to work in Aldi? Nah. These people work on claps alone. They're machines, not people. It'll be fiiiiine
Was a response to me so most definitely a strawman argument.
Last one before I just leave you to it as you never debate in good faith and just wanted to clarify. Toodles
"You do know that this isn't your inbox and I can bounce off anyone's argument to make a point, yes? Hey ho. Enjoy your personal responsibility | |||
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" I'm taking your point and others and extending it to its logical conclusion. If people want decent conditions, they should move to the private sector. People working in helping professions should take the thanks and forgo any money or benefits. If they can't, they're not fit for a profession. They should do important things, like sell shit you don't need. If you're a victim of crime, your house catches on fire, you get sick, you get old, you're a child, you give birth, you're in the surrounds of a terrorist attack - well, personal responsibility, innit. How dare you expect help from others? Worthless scroungers. I just tend to base my thoughts on things like this on reality instead of wishful thinking. Like I said there are real word repercussions if certain professions went on strike. That’s just a fact. And there aren't real world repercussions of other countries poaching our medical staff and leading to further shortages (in a time when many countries face shortages and UK pay is a lot lower than places like Australia)? There aren't repercussions to nurses leaving an understaffed profession to work in Aldi? Nah. These people work on claps alone. They're machines, not people. It'll be fiiiiine
Was a response to me so most definitely a strawman argument.
Last one before I just leave you to it as you never debate in good faith and just wanted to clarify. Toodles
You do know that this isn't your inbox and I can bounce off anyone's argument to make a point, yes?
Hey ho.
Enjoy your personal responsibility "You do know the typical use of the reply"e butto is to actually respond to the people you quote, yes? | |||
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" I'm taking your point and others and extending it to its logical conclusion. If people want decent conditions, they should move to the private sector. People working in helping professions should take the thanks and forgo any money or benefits. If they can't, they're not fit for a profession. They should do important things, like sell shit you don't need. If you're a victim of crime, your house catches on fire, you get sick, you get old, you're a child, you give birth, you're in the surrounds of a terrorist attack - well, personal responsibility, innit. How dare you expect help from others? Worthless scroungers. I just tend to base my thoughts on things like this on reality instead of wishful thinking. Like I said there are real word repercussions if certain professions went on strike. That’s just a fact. And there aren't real world repercussions of other countries poaching our medical staff and leading to further shortages (in a time when many countries face shortages and UK pay is a lot lower than places like Australia)? There aren't repercussions to nurses leaving an understaffed profession to work in Aldi? Nah. These people work on claps alone. They're machines, not people. It'll be fiiiiine
Was a response to me so most definitely a strawman argument.
Last one before I just leave you to it as you never debate in good faith and just wanted to clarify. Toodles
You do know that this isn't your inbox and I can bounce off anyone's argument to make a point, yes?
Hey ho.
Enjoy your personal responsibility
You do know the typical use of the reply"e butto is to actually respond to the people you quote, yes?
"I thought you were going? Actions have consequences - including paying people so little that they leave. | |||
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" I'm taking your point and others and extending it to its logical conclusion. If people want decent conditions, they should move to the private sector. People working in helping professions should take the thanks and forgo any money or benefits. If they can't, they're not fit for a profession. They should do important things, like sell shit you don't need. If you're a victim of crime, your house catches on fire, you get sick, you get old, you're a child, you give birth, you're in the surrounds of a terrorist attack - well, personal responsibility, innit. How dare you expect help from others? Worthless scroungers. I just tend to base my thoughts on things like this on reality instead of wishful thinking. Like I said there are real word repercussions if certain professions went on strike. That’s just a fact. And there aren't real world repercussions of other countries poaching our medical staff and leading to further shortages (in a time when many countries face shortages and UK pay is a lot lower than places like Australia)? There aren't repercussions to nurses leaving an understaffed profession to work in Aldi? Nah. These people work on claps alone. They're machines, not people. It'll be fiiiiine
Was a response to me so most definitely a strawman argument.
Last one before I just leave you to it as you never debate in good faith and just wanted to clarify. Toodles
You do know that this isn't your inbox and I can bounce off anyone's argument to make a point, yes?
Hey ho.
Enjoy your personal responsibility
You do know the typical use of the reply"e butto is to actually respond to the people you quote, yes?
I thought you were going?
Actions have consequences - including paying people so little that they leave."I was, but it’s funny going back & forth with you and I’m bored. | |||
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"Jr Dr’s, Dr’s and Nurses all have blood on their hands. You don’t go into the healthcare profession to make oodles of money" No but we don't go into healthcare to be treated like shit either | |||
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" I'm taking your point and others and extending it to its logical conclusion. If people want decent conditions, they should move to the private sector. People working in helping professions should take the thanks and forgo any money or benefits. If they can't, they're not fit for a profession. They should do important things, like sell shit you don't need. If you're a victim of crime, your house catches on fire, you get sick, you get old, you're a child, you give birth, you're in the surrounds of a terrorist attack - well, personal responsibility, innit. How dare you expect help from others? Worthless scroungers. I just tend to base my thoughts on things like this on reality instead of wishful thinking. Like I said there are real word repercussions if certain professions went on strike. That’s just a fact. And there aren't real world repercussions of other countries poaching our medical staff and leading to further shortages (in a time when many countries face shortages and UK pay is a lot lower than places like Australia)? There aren't repercussions to nurses leaving an understaffed profession to work in Aldi? Nah. These people work on claps alone. They're machines, not people. It'll be fiiiiine
So you agree there are genuine repercussions, thanks. "Thats why they are striking, to cause repercussions, thus highlighting their arguments, and plight for fair pay, conditions and patient safety. Power to the proletariat. | |||
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"I don’t think they should be allowed to strike." | |||
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" But you’re happy for there pay to have been reduced by 27% over ten years Classy I don’t think they should be allowed to strike." I read one person say 45% plus accommodation since 1991. Are junior doctors (in this case) worth that much less now in real terms? Why? Why don't they all leave? They probably should. | |||
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" But you’re happy for there pay to have been reduced by 27% over ten years Classy I don’t think they should be allowed to strike." Another strawman, I never said that so don’t put words in my mouth please. | |||
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"Jr Dr’s, Dr’s and Nurses all have blood on their hands. You don’t go into the healthcare profession to make oodles of money" | |||
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" But you’re happy for there pay to have been reduced by 27% over ten years Classy I don’t think they should be allowed to strike." Nurse pay fell in real terms by 9% over 10 years, not 27%. Not 'real terms', their pay was not 'reduced' at all | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
Why do you think so many are leaving and they're struggling with recruitment instead now?
LvM"Apparently this is a strawman argument. Lulz | |||
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"But not the government who have run the NHS into the ground Record waiting lists and record nurse doctor vacancies Hardly rocket science Jr Dr’s, Dr’s and Nurses all have blood on their hands. You don’t go into the healthcare profession to make oodles of money" It's never the powerful that can be held responsible for actions. That's silly | |||
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"Yes, everyone should have the right to strike. Mrs TMN x Do you believe the police and army should then out of curiosity? Can you imagine the carnage if either downed tools over pay/conditions?
Why do you think so many are leaving and they're struggling with recruitment instead now?
LvM
Apparently this is a strawman argument. Lulz"I’ve quoted where you strawmanned, but as always you won’t debate in good faith. Lolzzz | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. We should all strike more. Part of the reason things are so shitty at the moment is that we don't do it enough. One out, all out. I’ll ask same to you regarding police & military then. Should they be allowed to strike? If so what about the repercussions if/when they did?" Their working conditions and pay would be maintained leading to a more content and productive workforce. That is unlikely to seek industrial action in the future. | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. We should all strike more. Part of the reason things are so shitty at the moment is that we don't do it enough. One out, all out. I’ll ask same to you regarding police & military then. Should they be allowed to strike? If so what about the repercussions if/when they did? Their working conditions and pay would be maintained leading to a more content and productive workforce. That is unlikely to seek industrial action in the future." You don’t think there would be any negative repercussions if the police and forced downed tools to strike? | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. We should all strike more. Part of the reason things are so shitty at the moment is that we don't do it enough. One out, all out. I’ll ask same to you regarding police & military then. Should they be allowed to strike? If so what about the repercussions if/when they did? Their working conditions and pay would be maintained leading to a more content and productive workforce. That is unlikely to seek industrial action in the future. You don’t think there would be any negative repercussions if the police and forced downed tools to strike?" I'm the short term yes. However, the long term benefits would outweigh that. That's why they have voted for industrial action. If their pay and conditions had been maintained, there wouldn't be a cause for industrial action. Also, the standard of the service now. The repercussions of that for the community: is also a consideration when taking industrial action. Workers don't strike to cause problems. They strike because the problems haven't been dealt with to the degree that they cannot in good conscience continue to remain silent and toe the line. | |||
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"Everyone should be able to strike. We should all strike more. Part of the reason things are so shitty at the moment is that we don't do it enough. One out, all out. I’ll ask same to you regarding police & military then. Should they be allowed to strike? If so what about the repercussions if/when they did? Their working conditions and pay would be maintained leading to a more content and productive workforce. That is unlikely to seek industrial action in the future. You don’t think there would be any negative repercussions if the police and forced downed tools to strike? I'm the short term yes. However, the long term benefits would outweigh that. That's why they have voted for industrial action. If their pay and conditions had been maintained, there wouldn't be a cause for industrial action. Also, the standard of the service now. The repercussions of that for the community: is also a consideration when taking industrial action. Workers don't strike to cause problems. They strike because the problems haven't been dealt with to the degree that they cannot in good conscience continue to remain silent and toe the line." I pretty much agree with most of what you’ve said, but I just can’t agree with certain professions striking as even short term there are lives at risk. Yes I know they are at risk already and yes I know long term more lives will saved with better pay & conditions, I just don’t think striking is the best way to achieve it. I also don’t know what the best way is. | |||
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"Jr Dr’s, Dr’s and Nurses all have blood on their hands. You don’t go into the healthcare profession to make oodles of money" They do however have the right to a fair wage given the job they do. | |||
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"Jr Dr’s, Dr’s and Nurses all have blood on their hands. You don’t go into the healthcare profession to make oodles of money They do however have the right to a fair wage given the job they do. " And let’s be honest their wage is anything but fair. | |||
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"Jr Dr’s, Dr’s and Nurses all have blood on their hands. You don’t go into the healthcare profession to make oodles of money They do however have the right to a fair wage given the job they do. And let’s be honest their wage is anything but fair." Agreed. Totally x | |||
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