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Growing up poor Part 2.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Following on from last night I think a lot of people don't seem to realize benefits include things like tax credits which are also being cut.
Anyone who is working class, or even middle class, who support the Govt needs their heads examined and a sharp lesson in basic economics. Not to mention humanity.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"well you can see where the goverment will get there 32% rise from , / all the people there makeing poorer  "
Great isn't it when they take 4 grand from New recruit cops then think they deserve a 32% payrise!
Don't forget we all in this togeather ..........yeah right  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Companies should pay a living wage , too many folk work hard for a pittance !  "
Personally I think the minimum wage is very reasonable what is it now £6.20ph that's not bad really!
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Can't believe the last government was stupid enough not to foresee the combined effect of bringing in a 'minimum' wage and working tax credit at the same time.
Those employers who don't really give a stuff about their workers were placed in the almost 'fairytale' position of having a wage enforced on them, which rapidly became not the 'minimum', but 'the wage' and at the same time, the government of the day decided it would be a good thing to bring in a tax credit (which could, under certain circumstances, be quite substantial) given to people working on the same 'minimum' wage.
The result? The normal way of determining pay structures (supply and demand, and market forces) for the majority of the low paid was practically eradicated overnight. Unscrupulous employers were offered the golden chalice of being able to get away with offering a meager, government approved wage with the added bonus that the same government would 'make it up' to something livable with tax credit.
Now that the current incumbents are stripping that benefit away - but doing nothing about the so-called 'minimum' wage (I prefer to call it the 'get away with it wage') - hence, we have millions now being backed into a poverty corner.
So much for the 'minimum' wage helping people out of poverty. Again, ill-informed idealistic governmental meddling is being paid for by the least rewarded...
And that's my rant for this Thursday.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Following on from last night I think a lot of people don't seem to realize benefits include things like tax credits which are also being cut.
Anyone who is working class, or even middle class, who support the Govt needs their heads examined and a sharp lesson in basic economics. Not to mention humanity.
"
I vote Conservative and I do have issues with some of their policies, but in my heart I know how much worse this country would be if Labour had won in 2010, or if they win in 2015. I hope and pray that the electorate aren't fooled by them and realise that although things have been hard these past couple of years it can only get better, and I'm convinced it will. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Companies should pay a living wage , too many folk work hard for a pittance !
Personally I think the minimum wage is very reasonable what is it now £6.20ph that's not bad really!
"
Would someone pay tax on that on a 40 hr week ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Following on from last night I think a lot of people don't seem to realize benefits include things like tax credits which are also being cut.
Anyone who is working class, or even middle class, who support the Govt needs their heads examined and a sharp lesson in basic economics. Not to mention humanity.
I vote Conservative and I do have issues with some of their policies, but in my heart I know how much worse this country would be if Labour had won in 2010, or if they win in 2015. I hope and pray that the electorate aren't fooled by them and realise that although things have been hard these past couple of years it can only get better, and I'm convinced it will."
sometimes i think it's a shame we don't have more choice , in the past ive voted for both but now i think there as bad as each other, it feels like a vote thats not for tory or labour is a wasted vote. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Can't believe the last government was stupid enough not to foresee the combined effect of bringing in a 'minimum' wage and working tax credit at the same time.
Those employers who don't really give a stuff about their workers were placed in the almost 'fairytale' position of having a wage enforced on them, which rapidly became not the 'minimum', but 'the wage' and at the same time, the government of the day decided it would be a good thing to bring in a tax credit (which could, under certain circumstances, be quite substantial) given to people working on the same 'minimum' wage.
The result? The normal way of determining pay structures (supply and demand, and market forces) for the majority of the low paid was practically eradicated overnight. Unscrupulous employers were offered the golden chalice of being able to get away with offering a meager, government approved wage with the added bonus that the same government would 'make it up' to something livable with tax credit.
Now that the current incumbents are stripping that benefit away - but doing nothing about the so-called 'minimum' wage (I prefer to call it the 'get away with it wage') - hence, we have millions now being backed into a poverty corner.
So much for the 'minimum' wage helping people out of poverty. Again, ill-informed idealistic governmental meddling is being paid for by the least rewarded...
And that's my rant for this Thursday.
"
For anybody who is a wage earner or manual worker I can see how people think like you have stated!
From a business point of view which is how I see everything it is sound strategy for a government and business to use their assets, (public,workers, etc) in the cheapest most economical way for the good of the economy!
Governments make bad choices and then there is a management reshuffle to put fresh ideas forward same as any other business!
There are winners and losers same as in any business!
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Can't believe the last government was stupid enough not to foresee the combined effect of bringing in a 'minimum' wage and working tax credit at the same time.
Those employers who don't really give a stuff about their workers were placed in the almost 'fairytale' position of having a wage enforced on them, which rapidly became not the 'minimum', but 'the wage' and at the same time, the government of the day decided it would be a good thing to bring in a tax credit (which could, under certain circumstances, be quite substantial) given to people working on the same 'minimum' wage.
The result? The normal way of determining pay structures (supply and demand, and market forces) for the majority of the low paid was practically eradicated overnight. Unscrupulous employers were offered the golden chalice of being able to get away with offering a meager, government approved wage with the added bonus that the same government would 'make it up' to something livable with tax credit.
Now that the current incumbents are stripping that benefit away - but doing nothing about the so-called 'minimum' wage (I prefer to call it the 'get away with it wage') - hence, we have millions now being backed into a poverty corner.
So much for the 'minimum' wage helping people out of poverty. Again, ill-informed idealistic governmental meddling is being paid for by the least rewarded...
And that's my rant for this Thursday.
For anybody who is a wage earner or manual worker I can see how people think like you have stated!
From a business point of view which is how I see everything it is sound strategy for a government and business to use their assets, (public,workers, etc) in the cheapest most economical way for the good of the economy!
Governments make bad choices and then there is a management reshuffle to put fresh ideas forward same as any other business!
There are winners and losers same as in any business!
"
No. 1 - why do you assume I am a manual worker?
No. 2 - I had hoped we had moved on from the workforce being regarded as an 'asset' to be used in whatever way anyone wishes...
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Can't believe the last government was stupid enough not to foresee the combined effect of bringing in a 'minimum' wage and working tax credit at the same time.
Those employers who don't really give a stuff about their workers were placed in the almost 'fairytale' position of having a wage enforced on them, which rapidly became not the 'minimum', but 'the wage' and at the same time, the government of the day decided it would be a good thing to bring in a tax credit (which could, under certain circumstances, be quite substantial) given to people working on the same 'minimum' wage.
The result? The normal way of determining pay structures (supply and demand, and market forces) for the majority of the low paid was practically eradicated overnight. Unscrupulous employers were offered the golden chalice of being able to get away with offering a meager, government approved wage with the added bonus that the same government would 'make it up' to something livable with tax credit.
Now that the current incumbents are stripping that benefit away - but doing nothing about the so-called 'minimum' wage (I prefer to call it the 'get away with it wage') - hence, we have millions now being backed into a poverty corner.
So much for the 'minimum' wage helping people out of poverty. Again, ill-informed idealistic governmental meddling is being paid for by the least rewarded...
And that's my rant for this Thursday.
"
I couldn't agree more with all of that. The minimum wage was not set at a level tht people need to live, but at a level employers could live with. If a business cannot support paying it's workers a decent wage and still stay in the black then it's running under an unsustainable business model and shouldn't be trading.
Additionally, I despise the various 'youth opportunity' schemes that have been implemented over the years as it is tantamount to slave labour. Again, if a business has a job for someone to do it should pay that worker the going rate for the job he/she performs, and in line with the rest of the workforce. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" If a business cannot support paying it's workers a decent wage and still stay in the black then it's running under an unsustainable business model and shouldn't be trading."
+100% I've been watching Michael Portillo's Great British Railway Journeys series on BBC2/4 recently where he follows the Victorian Bradshaws Railway Guide.
One thing that comes over loud and clear from these programmes about the Victorians is that they KNEW that if a business was unsustainable - and, with a few exceptions, granted - including whether or not it could pay it's workers and decent wage on which a FAMILY could live to a reasonable standard, then that business should come to an end.
Comet, HWV, Jessops, and now Blockbuster have all learned the meaning of a 'Sustainable Business' in the last few weeks. But unfortunately it is the staff who made those businesses function who will now suffer the most...
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Can't believe the last government was stupid enough not to foresee the combined effect of bringing in a 'minimum' wage and working tax credit at the same time.
Those employers who don't really give a stuff about their workers were placed in the almost 'fairytale' position of having a wage enforced on them, which rapidly became not the 'minimum', but 'the wage' and at the same time, the government of the day decided it would be a good thing to bring in a tax credit (which could, under certain circumstances, be quite substantial) given to people working on the same 'minimum' wage.
The result? The normal way of determining pay structures (supply and demand, and market forces) for the majority of the low paid was practically eradicated overnight. Unscrupulous employers were offered the golden chalice of being able to get away with offering a meager, government approved wage with the added bonus that the same government would 'make it up' to something livable with tax credit.
Now that the current incumbents are stripping that benefit away - but doing nothing about the so-called 'minimum' wage (I prefer to call it the 'get away with it wage') - hence, we have millions now being backed into a poverty corner.
So much for the 'minimum' wage helping people out of poverty. Again, ill-informed idealistic governmental meddling is being paid for by the least rewarded...
And that's my rant for this Thursday.
For anybody who is a wage earner or manual worker I can see how people think like you have stated!
From a business point of view which is how I see everything it is sound strategy for a government and business to use their assets, (public,workers, etc) in the cheapest most economical way for the good of the economy!
Governments make bad choices and then there is a management reshuffle to put fresh ideas forward same as any other business!
There are winners and losers same as in any business!
No. 1 - why do you assume I am a manual worker?
No. 2 - I had hoped we had moved on from the workforce being regarded as an 'asset' to be used in whatever way anyone wishes...
"
Sorry it was not a pang at you I was not saying u r a manual worker. And would not try to insult anyone! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" If a business cannot support paying it's workers a decent wage and still stay in the black then it's running under an unsustainable business model and shouldn't be trading.
+100% I've been watching Michael Portillo's Great British Railway Journeys series on BBC2/4 recently where he follows the Victorian Bradshaws Railway Guide.
One thing that comes over loud and clear from these programmes about the Victorians is that they KNEW that if a business was unsustainable - and, with a few exceptions, granted - including whether or not it could pay it's workers and decent wage on which a FAMILY could live to a reasonable standard, then that business should come to an end.
Comet, HWV, Jessops, and now Blockbuster have all learned the meaning of a 'Sustainable Business' in the last few weeks. But unfortunately it is the staff who made those businesses function who will now suffer the most...
"
W T F ?
Victorian industrialists paid decent wages? Which rose tinted history books have you been reading? Not even Max Hastings or Churchill would write that the Victorian period was some sort of golden age for the british working class and expect not to be laughed or booed at!
As for market forces, these won't touch a labour market so long as there is unemployment or economic immigration. So long as there is an "unlimited" source of labour demand won't make the market price if labour rise. Why do you think unlimited movement of labour is one of the founding principles of the union? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" If a business cannot support paying it's workers a decent wage and still stay in the black then it's running under an unsustainable business model and shouldn't be trading.
+100% I've been watching Michael Portillo's Great British Railway Journeys series on BBC2/4 recently where he follows the Victorian Bradshaws Railway Guide.
One thing that comes over loud and clear from these programmes about the Victorians is that they KNEW that if a business was unsustainable - and, with a few exceptions, granted - including whether or not it could pay it's workers and decent wage on which a FAMILY could live to a reasonable standard, then that business should come to an end.
Comet, HWV, Jessops, and now Blockbuster have all learned the meaning of a 'Sustainable Business' in the last few weeks. But unfortunately it is the staff who made those businesses function who will now suffer the most...
"
100 years ago, before the introduction of the motor vehicle, horse and cart, or horse pulling barges, were the defacto method of transporting goods from one place to another, with waystations en route for the horses to rest and the vendor to stay overnight. These places no longer exist, and horses do not perform those tasks anymore, technology made them redundant. It is no big surprise that all of the businesses that have folded recently have all been in direct competition with the internet, and there are many more out there who will be feeling that maybe their time has passed too. The workers will be absorbed into other industries and may struggle for a while but things have a way of settling down naturally whilst an eliquilibrium in the local marketplace and/or community establishes itself.
All of the old pit mining villages up here thought they would fall into neglect and ruin with the closure of the mines but they haven't, they are thriving but as cottage industries, and the former workers have either retired now or their offspring have gained employment in places that haven;t subjected them to awful working conditions and the ever present threat of death through pit collapse.
I wonder how many former miners would want their children and grandchildren to work as they once did. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" I wonder how many former miners would want their children and grandchildren to work as they once did."
Heard an American journalist put the following to Arthur Scargill once..
"Arthur, you want all your members children and grandchildren to be miners. Why don't you want them to be Geologists...?"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" If a business cannot support paying it's workers a decent wage and still stay in the black then it's running under an unsustainable business model and shouldn't be trading.
+100% I've been watching Michael Portillo's Great British Railway Journeys series on BBC2/4 recently where he follows the Victorian Bradshaws Railway Guide.
One thing that comes over loud and clear from these programmes about the Victorians is that they KNEW that if a business was unsustainable - and, with a few exceptions, granted - including whether or not it could pay it's workers and decent wage on which a FAMILY could live to a reasonable standard, then that business should come to an end.
Comet, HWV, Jessops, and now Blockbuster have all learned the meaning of a 'Sustainable Business' in the last few weeks. But unfortunately it is the staff who made those businesses function who will now suffer the most...
100 years ago, before the introduction of the motor vehicle, horse and cart, or horse pulling barges, were the defacto method of transporting goods from one place to another, with waystations en route for the horses to rest and the vendor to stay overnight. These places no longer exist, and horses do not perform those tasks anymore, technology made them redundant. It is no big surprise that all of the businesses that have folded recently have all been in direct competition with the internet, and there are many more out there who will be feeling that maybe their time has passed too. The workers will be absorbed into other industries and may struggle for a while but things have a way of settling down naturally whilst an eliquilibrium in the local marketplace and/or community establishes itself.
All of the old pit mining villages up here thought they would fall into neglect and ruin with the closure of the mines but they haven't, they are thriving but as cottage industries, and the former workers have either retired now or their offspring have gained employment in places that haven;t subjected them to awful working conditions and the ever present threat of death through pit collapse.
I wonder how many former miners would want their children and grandchildren to work as they once did."
I find it funny that we always look to the past (with heavily tinted rose coloured specs) and have this idea that all things that were, shall always be. Yet the Victorians, who we look back to, saw nothing but the future....
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" If a business cannot support paying it's workers a decent wage and still stay in the black then it's running under an unsustainable business model and shouldn't be trading.
+100% I've been watching Michael Portillo's Great British Railway Journeys series on BBC2/4 recently where he follows the Victorian Bradshaws Railway Guide.
One thing that comes over loud and clear from these programmes about the Victorians is that they KNEW that if a business was unsustainable - and, with a few exceptions, granted - including whether or not it could pay it's workers and decent wage on which a FAMILY could live to a reasonable standard, then that business should come to an end.
Comet, HWV, Jessops, and now Blockbuster have all learned the meaning of a 'Sustainable Business' in the last few weeks. But unfortunately it is the staff who made those businesses function who will now suffer the most...
W T F ?
Victorian industrialists paid decent wages? Which rose tinted history books have you been reading? Not even Max Hastings or Churchill would write that the Victorian period was some sort of golden age for the british working class and expect not to be laughed or booed at!
As for market forces, these won't touch a labour market so long as there is unemployment or economic immigration. So long as there is an "unlimited" source of labour demand won't make the market price if labour rise. Why do you think unlimited movement of labour is one of the founding principles of the union?"
No Victorians didn't pay 'decent' wages - not by our standards anyway. But wages were based on a level (decent or otherwise) for a family. Compared to the living standards of 95%+ of the population before the Industrial Revolution/Victorian era, by the end of it, they had considerably improved - not for everyone as there was still far too much abject poverty - and still is.
The point I (and Wishy - surprisingly!) were making was that it is indefenceable keeping a business going in an unsustainable state off the back of the unrealistically low wages being paid to the staff. Such businesses are both exploiting their staff and have no place in a modern economy, but it is recent Government policies which have made the situation worse.
Those businesses which DO pay their staff a proper wage, AND are sustainable should be applauded - they have got their business model right. That's what applied as much in the Victorian era as it does now.
The saddest fact in all this is that when those businesses which have been exploiting the minimum wage/working tax credit equation for their own short term ends, when they do go down, it is the workers who suffer most.
I wouldn't dream of suggesting that the Victorian era was a golden age for the overwhelming majority of the working population - it wasn't. But is letting employers get away with paying no more than a 'minimum' wage and relying on a tax credit paid to the workforce, to allow them to exploit profit on a short term basis, any better?
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