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Junior doctors strike

By *JtheTom OP Man over a year ago

London

Just wanted to stay from my perspective good luck to them. Hope people start to see how much the NHS relies on you and how valuable your role is along with the nurses, paramedics and other AHPs.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just wanted to stay from my perspective good luck to them. Hope people start to see how much the NHS relies on you and how valuable your role is along with the nurses, paramedics and other AHPs.

But.

35%?!

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By *heGateKeeperMan over a year ago

Stratford

"Just wanted to stay from my perspective good luck to them. Hope people start to see how much the NHS relies on you and how valuable your role is along with the nurses, paramedics and other AHPs.

But.

35%?!"

But.

Preservation of life and limb?!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just wanted to stay from my perspective good luck to them. Hope people start to see how much the NHS relies on you and how valuable your role is along with the nurses, paramedics and other AHPs.

But.

35%?!

But.

Preservation of life and limb?!"

Agreed

But.

Even so ....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

I know I will be shouted down but withholding their labour will see people die. No, I do not know the alternative to strike action in their case but they claim to be doing this for "patient safety" and that is a blatant lie

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

If they have no alternative though ...

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By *ichaelangelaCouple over a year ago

notts

As someone said on a different forum.

Do they take into account the cost of all the training they get?

Also, so i'm told, a large number of them go to work in other countries like Australia for better pay after the UK have trained them, no idea if this is true or not, just putting it out there

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By *host63Man over a year ago

Bedfont Feltham

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

These people are ill paid overworked and undervalued.

And have to put up with trills like you

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

These people are ill paid overworked and undervalued.

And have to put up with trills like you"

Nurses and doctors are different arguments.

Ever met a poor doctor?

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By *JtheTom OP Man over a year ago

London

In the context of the last 3 years, all healthcare professionals risked (and some even lost) thier lives going into work during the covid pandemic ... i think on reflection the government response promoting meaningless claps seems a bit sickening and more needs to be done to pay these people fairly.

This all whilst MP clinked champagne glasses at the heart of government in illegal lockdown parties.

Also, Crap useless PPE bought and sold at mates rates between Conservative cronies profiteering out of the pandemic, whilst healthcare professionals share masks, wear bin bags take year on year realterms pay-cuts over a decade of Tory dismantling NHS services.

Does anyone think these professionals are worth 15-30% less than they were 15 years ago?

A new junior doctor gets £14/ hour (35% increase will make this up to £19/hr). After 6 years of medical school accrued debt of 50-80k before they even earn thier first payslip. A new nurse will earn even less... overall what do you think they should do and what do you think they are worth?

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By *heGateKeeperMan over a year ago

Stratford

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

These people are ill paid overworked and undervalued.

And have to put up with trills like you

Nurses and doctors are different arguments.

Ever met a poor doctor?"

Jnr Drs are not particularly well paid, particularly given the level of study and qualifications required for the role.

Just Google ‘junior dr salary’ and look at the official pay scales

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

These people are ill paid overworked and undervalued.

And have to put up with trills like you

Nurses and doctors are different arguments.

Ever met a poor doctor?"

Yes, many

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

These people are ill paid overworked and undervalued.

And have to put up with trills like you

Nurses and doctors are different arguments.

Ever met a poor doctor?

Jnr Drs are not particularly well paid, particularly given the level of study and qualifications required for the role.

Just Google ‘junior dr salary’ and look at the official pay scales "

A fully qualified junior doctor earns around £60k a year, the pay claim they have submitted would take that to £78k a year

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By *heGateKeeperMan over a year ago

Stratford

"A fully qualified junior doctor earns around £60k a year, the pay claim they have submitted would take that to £78k a year"

After how many years of intensive study (which they pay back) and on the job training?

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By *lex46TV/TS over a year ago

Near Wells

Hope you can afford and won't complain about the tax rises when they happen to pay for it.

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By *JtheTom OP Man over a year ago

London

https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england

For clarification see the above link. The top end of the pay scale you've quoted at 60k is a doctor with about 8 years experience, a second PhD in thier specialist research field, the year before they become a consultant.

A new junior doc saddled with debt just from their education to get to their first job (before they even think about a mortgage), is 25-28k a year

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

I take it that you're not trained as a Junior Doctor, with the spouting of such BS. Their actions are necessary because of the lack of government care for us and causing it to get to this point. Talks and financial flexibility are needed on their part and postponing this is blinkered, an almost psychopathic disregard for public health and life.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A fully qualified junior doctor earns around £60k a year, the pay claim they have submitted would take that to £78k a year

After how many years of intensive study (which they pay back) and on the job training?"

It is their choice. Btw in the budget the chancellor raised the limit on pension contributions to meet doctors demands. They can afford to contribute £1 million but need more. They are really struggling!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england

A new junior doc saddled with debt just from their education to get to their first job (before they even think about a mortgage), is 25-28k a year"

£35k actually is starting pay. see my comment regarding pensions, they are crying wolf regarding being poorly paid

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

Quite right, doctors have an almost psychopathic disregard for public health and life, hence the strikes

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By *acDreamyMan over a year ago

Wirral

And in Australia they would earn more than double to do the same job.

A lawyer with similar training is on twice as much too.

Year on year there are pay freezes or below inflation rises. The private sector jobs match inflation but because in the UK there is no alternative to the NHS they pay peanuts. At some point it has to change.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

There are so many strikes at the moment its quite hard to keep up and even harder to know what they are striking for. I heard one on the radio the other day.. The reason.. "because covid was bla bla bla" so we are going on strike for more money.

I admire people like the junior doctors who are apparently going on strike for my improved safety and benefit though. Very noble of them.

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By *ryandseeMan over a year ago

Yorkshire

It amazes me how political dogma is the only thing that drives so many people's opinions on a thread like this. The bottom line is that you can never compare apples with pears. There is massive erossion of salaries in some sectors/jobs and overinflated ones elsewhere. In an ideal world nobody should have to strike if there were truly independent pay review bodies. Lets also not forget that it is often not just about pay but working conditions, service to the public and sadly health and safety too. Waiting for years for an appointment or till you die is not what people have been paying for all their lives or expect from their NHS. Any staff, whether it's nurses, doctors or junior doctors deserve an appropriate salary and conditions to go with it as well as long term planning to recruit sufficient staff to deal with nit only the backlog but future demand too. All they seem to do is just short term interventions which make hardly any difference than committing to a well funded, efficient but also effective health service.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

"It amazes me how political dogma is the only thing that drives so many people's opinions on a thread like this. The bottom line is that you can never compare apples with pears. There is massive erossion of salaries in some sectors/jobs and overinflated ones elsewhere. In an ideal world nobody should have to strike if there were truly independent pay review bodies. Lets also not forget that it is often not just about pay but working conditions, service to the public and sadly health and safety too. Waiting for years for an appointment or till you die is not what people have been paying for all their lives or expect from their NHS. Any staff, whether it's nurses, doctors or junior doctors deserve an appropriate salary and conditions to go with it as well as long term planning to recruit sufficient staff to deal with nit only the backlog but future demand too. All they seem to do is just short term interventions which make hardly any difference than committing to a well funded, efficient but also effective health service. "

Very true. Especially the dogma point. Security at heathrow next on the list. Along with the passport office (because post covid people now want to travel and its stressful). Along with staff at some agencies refusing to stop the work from home practise. Its a mess. What is observable is the record profits continuing to be posted.

It would br interesting for those who just pile on and say "pay them fairly". First if they have any clue what they are currently paid in package including pension, holidays and other instruments and secondly what their view of fair is? The media of course just like to drop deliberate misinformation.

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By *issmorganWoman over a year ago

Calderdale innit

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

These people are ill paid overworked and undervalued.

And have to put up with trills like you"

Well said ,when you work in healthcare you know it isn't all about the money .

Do you know how many hours these jr Drs regularly put in to make sure people friends and families are looked after ?.

A Dr shared his wage slip on Twitter and it was about £1649 ,not alot for 55/60 hours a week and making decisions that save lives.

The consultants have been taking over care in the nhs during the strikes so they're hardly leaving people to die!.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Whilst I do think junior doctors (and all medical staff) should be paid more, I've always thought of the junior doctor's pay/conditions as an investment in their own future. When they're qualified, they will go on to a range of very lucrative choices - family GP, where essentially they sit in an office chatting to patients and doing basic obs, printing out scripts for established and basic treatments, then referrals when it's beyond their capabilities. At the moment, few weekends and even fewer nightshifts. Then there's consultancy - basically the same conditions as a GP but within a specialised area, and working at a hospital. Surgeons - more specialised training and hands-on treatment but again - few weekends or nights. At my golf club there are many wealthy, early-retired doctors, and also wealthy near-retiree doctors who are still able to sit in an office and chat to patients (as above). Yes, they're all (comparatively) poorly paid at the beginning of their careers, but go on to be very well paid. It's about the career path, not the start.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just wanted to stay from my perspective good luck to them. Hope people start to see how much the NHS relies on you and how valuable your role is along with the nurses, paramedics and other AHPs.

I'm staying well off the soap box on this, my daughter is currently engaged to a junior doctor and his thought matter more than mine. Safe to say he doesn't agree with the strike

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By *alandNitaCouple over a year ago

Scunthorpe

The NHS is currently short of around 10,000 doctors and struggling to retain staff, so something is required to encourage people to train & work in the NHS.

Obviously the 35% increase in pay is unreasonable, but that is only a starting point for the negotiations... when the government are actually willing to start negotiating.

In addition to the pay not keeping up with inflation, doctors have also faced changes in their contracts. These new contracts have reduced the rates of pay that they receive for "anti-social hours" that mean an average loss of 17% of their take home pay.

Cal

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By *rHotNottsMan over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

What exactly is a junior doctor compared to a normal duct or because all the doctors I know are millionaires , they setup all kinds of business in aesthetics, prescribing botox etc and still do stiff on NHS but make a killing in medicine etc

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By *alandNitaCouple over a year ago

Scunthorpe

"What exactly is a junior doctor compared to a normal duct or because all the doctors I know are millionaires , they setup all kinds of business in aesthetics, prescribing botox etc and still do stiff on NHS but make a killing in medicine etc "

A junior doctor is a doctor who has qualified as a doctor, but is still undergoing training (around 10 years) towards being a consultant, GP, or Specialist.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"As someone said on a different forum.

Do they take into account the cost of all the training they get?

Also, so i'm told, a large number of them go to work in other countries like Australia for better pay after the UK have trained them, no idea if this is true or not, just putting it out there"

Very true alas

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

A junior doctor is a doctor who has qualified as a doctor, but is still undergoing training (around 10 years) towards being a consultant, GP, or Specialist. "

Thats good to know. And when they become a consultant. What do they earn? Package?

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By *alandNitaCouple over a year ago

Scunthorpe

"As someone said on a different forum.

Do they take into account the cost of all the training they get?

Also, so i'm told, a large number of them go to work in other countries like Australia for better pay after the UK have trained them, no idea if this is true or not, just putting it out there

Very true alas"

As with most students, doctors pay a considerable amount towards their studies. They are also legally required to work for the NHS for 4 years before they can move to the private sector or take a job abroad.

The only reason doctors leave the NHS is because they're not paying them well enough to retain them. When there is a massive shortage of doctors, you would expect the Government to be doing everything possible to retain staff.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think we are discussing the symptom rather than the problem.

The consultants pay is too high as the hours they work weren’t accounted for when the pay scales were worked out. So there is none left for anyone else. That’s a relatives opinion I’m borrowing as they were a dentist.

As a consequence there is not enough left to fairly pay the less senior health professionals. There is nothing left for dentistry, any of us still got an NHS dentist? Maybe a few but I doubt it’s the majority.

I don’t agree with the striking myself but something has to change before the system collapses or is privatised and excludes the most vulnerable people from healthcare. So I can appreciate why it is happening.

I think an awful lot of cash is wasted on non clinical management and external business consultancy as well. To me that is criminal, an NHS manager should have at least 15-20 years clinical experience before they can make decisions that affect clinical staff and patients.

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By *alandNitaCouple over a year ago

Scunthorpe

A junior doctor is a doctor who has qualified as a doctor, but is still undergoing training (around 10 years) towards being a consultant, GP, or Specialist.

Thats good to know. And when they become a consultant. What do they earn? Package? "

Depending on when they were contracted a specialist's basic Salary is anything from £45k to £105k, GP's are £65k to £98k and consultants are £88k to £120k

Bearing in mind that with zero training and no minimum working hours, a MP's basic Salary is £88k and then they can claim everything on expenses.

Cal

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By *alandNitaCouple over a year ago

Scunthorpe

"I think we are discussing the symptom rather than the problem.

One of the biggest expenses to the NHS is Agency Staff, they pay many times more per hour for agency staff, and a huge amount of that finishes as profits in private companies.

If the NHS can't employ staff directly, they should create their own agency, and make this the ONLY agency that they will employ through.

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By *ustamanMan over a year ago

weymouth

For everyone complaining about strike action in the NHS just think, they have a massive recruitment crisis largely because of crap pay and conditions exacerbated by Brexit immigration policies - so should said NHS workers decide it's pointless carrying on and just all leave to other industries paying more (because they also have recruitment issues) then we will be royally fucked health wise (if we aren't already). So strike action is a temporary inconvenience in an attempt to improve pay and conditions, resignation tends to be more permanent

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By *acDreamyMan over a year ago

Wirral

There is so much misinformation on this thread. I especially love the idea that hospital consultants work few nights or weekends and spend their time sat in an office chatting!

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

"There is so much misinformation on this thread. I especially love the idea that hospital consultants work few nights or weekends and spend their time sat in an office chatting! "

Yeah that one is a particular highlight

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There is so much misinformation on this thread. I especially love the idea that hospital consultants work few nights or weekends and spend their time sat in an office chatting! "

At their basic level, many do. Weekends and nights involve a higher pay rate so Trusts are reluctant to have them available, except as on-call. Here's a direct quote from the .gov site "Consultants can currently opt out of non-emergency work at weekends and in the evenings, which means that some only work weekends in emergencies or if they choose to, rather than it being the norm, as for other staff."

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By *rHotNottsMan over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

A junior doctor is a doctor who has qualified as a doctor, but is still undergoing training (around 10 years) towards being a consultant, GP, or Specialist. "

Does it really take 10 years after medical school ? But anyways , I’ve they qualify sat by 31, they are made the life right , very normal to make 200-300K a year plus an NHS smaller salary as the contracts allow them to take private work and set up businesses, unlike most professional that have non compete, restricted covenant and exclusivity clauses

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By *idnight RamblerMan over a year ago

Pershore

"Just wanted to stay from my perspective good luck to them. Hope people start to see how much the NHS relies on you and how valuable your role is along with the nurses, paramedics and other AHPs.

Just jobs at the end of the day. NHS worship is part of the problem.

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By *acDreamyMan over a year ago

Wirral

That's total rubbish. No junior doctor is on without a senior. The hospital is covered by a consultant from every speciality at all times.

On call and out of hours pay, unless as a locum is paid at a lower rate than regular work for most consultants.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

One of the biggest expenses to the NHS is Agency Staff, they pay many times more per hour for agency staff, and a huge amount of that finishes as profits in private companies.

If the NHS can't employ staff directly, they should create their own agency, and make this the ONLY agency that they will employ through. "

That’s a really good point

In my industry agency fees are crippling. I guess a lot of money is spent unnecessarily on that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"That's total rubbish. No junior doctor is on without a senior. The hospital is covered by a consultant from every speciality at all times.

On call and out of hours pay, unless as a locum is paid at a lower rate than regular work for most consultants. "

A senior doctor is not necessarily a consultant. I think you may be getting a bit confused with registrars.

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By *acDreamyMan over a year ago

Wirral

A junior doctor is a doctor who has qualified as a doctor, but is still undergoing training (around 10 years) towards being a consultant, GP, or Specialist.

More than ten years from medical school in the case of hospital jobs and med school is five or six years. Very few would make anywhere near 200k!

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By *rHotNottsMan over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

A junior doctor is a doctor who has qualified as a doctor, but is still undergoing training (around 10 years) towards being a consultant, GP, or Specialist.

Thats good to know. And when they become a consultant. What do they earn? Package?

Depending on when they were contracted a specialist's basic Salary is anything from £45k to £105k, GP's are £65k to £98k and consultants are £88k to £120k

Bearing in mind that with zero training and no minimum working hours, a MP's basic Salary is £88k and then they can claim everything on expenses.

Cal"

Consultants and GP earnings are unlimited , a prescribing GP can make £10-20K a month in their spare time just remotely prescribing botox for the thousands of clinics without GPs.

My dermatologist charges £180 for a 5min telephone consultation and the payment is made offshore to his company so it’s not even taxed in the uk.

Let’s not feel sorry for doctors , they are among the highest paid in the country

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By *acDreamyMan over a year ago

Wirral

"That's total rubbish. No junior doctor is on without a senior. The hospital is covered by a consultant from every speciality at all times.

On call and out of hours pay, unless as a locum is paid at a lower rate than regular work for most consultants.

A senior doctor is not necessarily a consultant. I think you may be getting a bit confused with registrars.

No confusion. Registrars are junior doctors.

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By *rHotNottsMan over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

A junior doctor is a doctor who has qualified as a doctor, but is still undergoing training (around 10 years) towards being a consultant, GP, or Specialist.

More than ten years from medical school in the case of hospital jobs and med school is five or six years. Very few would make anywhere near 200k!"

Drive around millionaires row in places like Solihull and Leicester , most are multi millionaires by 30. The NHS salary isn’t that important when you have a licence to prescribe or consult privately

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"That's total rubbish. No junior doctor is on without a senior. The hospital is covered by a consultant from every speciality at all times.

On call and out of hours pay, unless as a locum is paid at a lower rate than regular work for most consultants.

A senior doctor is not necessarily a consultant. I think you may be getting a bit confused with registrars.

No confusion. Registrars are junior doctors. "

Sigh. Perhaps look a bit deeper than the first google page that comes up?

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By *andy PatinkinMan over a year ago

Leeds

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

These people are ill paid overworked and undervalued.

And have to put up with trills like you

Nurses and doctors are different arguments.

Ever met a poor doctor?

Jnr Drs are not particularly well paid, particularly given the level of study and qualifications required for the role.

Just Google ‘junior dr salary’ and look at the official pay scales

A fully qualified junior doctor earns around £60k a year, the pay claim they have submitted would take that to £78k a year"

That's a lie Sir ! There are many levels of Jnr Dr depending upon chosen specialty and years needed to complete their specific training. Therefore different levels of pay depending upon hours on call and seniority. Having worked in the NHS since 1994 , front line may I add, I think I have a decent understanding of what Jnr Dr's are paid, and to throw round £78K a year as what a Jnr Dr earns is not true. Of course some will be on that sort of money but they are the ones close to the end of their training before becoming a consultant so well worth that level of pay.

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By *acDreamyMan over a year ago

Wirral

"That's total rubbish. No junior doctor is on without a senior. The hospital is covered by a consultant from every speciality at all times.

On call and out of hours pay, unless as a locum is paid at a lower rate than regular work for most consultants.

A senior doctor is not necessarily a consultant. I think you may be getting a bit confused with registrars.

No confusion. Registrars are junior doctors.

Sigh. Perhaps look a bit deeper than the first google page that comes up?"

Perhaps you should look at the first Google page, it's from the British medical association!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"That's total rubbish. No junior doctor is on without a senior. The hospital is covered by a consultant from every speciality at all times.

On call and out of hours pay, unless as a locum is paid at a lower rate than regular work for most consultants.

A senior doctor is not necessarily a consultant. I think you may be getting a bit confused with registrars.

No confusion. Registrars are junior doctors.

Sigh. Perhaps look a bit deeper than the first google page that comes up?

Perhaps you should look at the first Google page, it's from the British medical association! "

Do you work for the NHS?

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By *acDreamyMan over a year ago

Wirral

"That's total rubbish. No junior doctor is on without a senior. The hospital is covered by a consultant from every speciality at all times.

On call and out of hours pay, unless as a locum is paid at a lower rate than regular work for most consultants.

A senior doctor is not necessarily a consultant. I think you may be getting a bit confused with registrars.

No confusion. Registrars are junior doctors.

Sigh. Perhaps look a bit deeper than the first google page that comes up?

Perhaps you should look at the first Google page, it's from the British medical association!

Do you work for the NHS?"

Why, do you?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"That's total rubbish. No junior doctor is on without a senior. The hospital is covered by a consultant from every speciality at all times.

On call and out of hours pay, unless as a locum is paid at a lower rate than regular work for most consultants.

A senior doctor is not necessarily a consultant. I think you may be getting a bit confused with registrars.

No confusion. Registrars are junior doctors.

Sigh. Perhaps look a bit deeper than the first google page that comes up?

Perhaps you should look at the first Google page, it's from the British medical association!

Do you work for the NHS?

Why, do you? "

I did, I retired early. I was an advanced paramedic practitioner. You?

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By *ectorRivaMan over a year ago

Gateshead

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

These people are ill paid overworked and undervalued.

And have to put up with trills like you

Nurses and doctors are different arguments.

Ever met a poor doctor?

Yes, many"

Working minimum 13 hour shifts,

“Over worked and under Paid”

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

A junior doctor is a doctor who has qualified as a doctor, but is still undergoing training (around 10 years) towards being a consultant, GP, or Specialist.

More than ten years from medical school in the case of hospital jobs and med school is five or six years. Very few would make anywhere near 200k!

Most doctors are multimillionaire by the time they are 30?

I'm sorry but I'd love a source to collaborate that.

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By *etric5555Man over a year ago

BISHOP AUCKLAND

Iv worked in hospital for 25yrs,people need to ask how much a cleaner or a porter gets we all have the same bills to pay and as fir this bs of only being on £14 pay per hour I can only say say bollocks to that and nurses

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england

A new junior doc saddled with debt just from their education to get to their first job (before they even think about a mortgage), is 25-28k a year

£35k actually is starting pay. see my comment regarding pensions, they are crying wolf regarding being poorly paid"

It's not 35k starting salary.

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By *acDreamyMan over a year ago

Wirral

Let's just say I know what a junior doctor is.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england

A new junior doc saddled with debt just from their education to get to their first job (before they even think about a mortgage), is 25-28k a year

£35k actually is starting pay. see my comment regarding pensions, they are crying wolf regarding being poorly paid

It's not 35k starting salary."

No you're correct, it isn't 35k. It's average is near 67k and also on average our junior doctors are the 3rd highest paid in Europe

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pay/junior-doctors-pay-scales/pay-scales-for-junior-doctors-in-england

A new junior doc saddled with debt just from their education to get to their first job (before they even think about a mortgage), is 25-28k a year

£35k actually is starting pay. see my comment regarding pensions, they are crying wolf regarding being poorly paid

It's not 35k starting salary.

No you're correct, it isn't 35k. It's average is near 67k and also on average our junior doctors are the 3rd highest paid in Europe"

Foundation 1 and 2 doctors are on the starting salarly, so bottom of the scale, no need to discuss the average in relation to them. They don't earn 35k on basic rate.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

Seems you can make numbers say anything you want. Id like to know what a reasonable salary and overall career package might be. And why student drs should have their debts magicked away which seems to be implied, whilst other students have to live with their debts.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I hope I don’t open a can of worms here

Don’t NHS doctors pay their own professional fees for registration and cet?

I know when I was in optometry briefly the sums paid were surprising.

It comes out your own pocket.

So if for arguments sake your earning 37k but paying 8.5k in professional fees you’d be better off doing my job.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"I hope I don’t open a can of worms here

Don’t NHS doctors pay their own professional fees for registration and cet?

I know when I was in optometry briefly the sums paid were surprising.

It comes out your own pocket.

So if for arguments sake your earning 37k but paying 8.5k in professional fees you’d be better off doing my job."

You are correct. And they have to pay for the (very expensive) exams that they must pass to progress through the junior doctor ranks, to the level of consultant. And they pay for their own CPD as well, which is also expensive and essential for them to stay up to date with research and developments.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

"I hope I don’t open a can of worms here

Don’t NHS doctors pay their own professional fees for registration and cet?

I know when I was in optometry briefly the sums paid were surprising.

It comes out your own pocket.

So if for arguments sake your earning 37k but paying 8.5k in professional fees you’d be better off doing my job."

In audiology youre better off being trained by the nhs (best training).. Then going private and earning fortunes after a few years...

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"That's total rubbish. No junior doctor is on without a senior. The hospital is covered by a consultant from every speciality at all times.

On call and out of hours pay, unless as a locum is paid at a lower rate than regular work for most consultants.

A senior doctor is not necessarily a consultant. I think you may be getting a bit confused with registrars.

No confusion. Registrars are junior doctors.

Sigh. Perhaps look a bit deeper than the first google page that comes up?

Perhaps you should look at the first Google page, it's from the British medical association!

Do you work for the NHS?

Why, do you?

I did, I retired early. I was an advanced paramedic practitioner. You?"

Let's just say you should listen to what MacDreamy says. He's definitely speaking from the perspective of knowing his onions. Serious onions.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"I think we are discussing the symptom rather than the problem.

One of the biggest expenses to the NHS is Agency Staff, they pay many times more per hour for agency staff, and a huge amount of that finishes as profits in private companies.

If the NHS can't employ staff directly, they should create their own agency, and make this the ONLY agency that they will employ through. "

Hospitals used to run their own "Bank" staffing, but more recently outsourced it to agencies, who collect mega bucks from the hourly rate. We work in education, where we can be charged over £200 a day for a science teacher. Imagine the uplift for medics.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

"I hope I don’t open a can of worms here

Don’t NHS doctors pay their own professional fees for registration and cet?

I know when I was in optometry briefly the sums paid were surprising.

It comes out your own pocket.

So if for arguments sake your earning 37k but paying 8.5k in professional fees you’d be better off doing my job."

Its a choice people make isnt it? A career. Pension. Holidays. Lifestyle. Job satisfaction. All go in the pot.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I hope I don’t open a can of worms here

Don’t NHS doctors pay their own professional fees for registration and cet?

I know when I was in optometry briefly the sums paid were surprising.

It comes out your own pocket.

So if for arguments sake your earning 37k but paying 8.5k in professional fees you’d be better off doing my job.

Is CPD what I called CET (continued education and training)? I’ve not been in healthcare for about 2 decades so I’m well out of date.

Also do you know if nurses pay registration and CPD fees? I’d be appalled if they do as I know several and they live way below the level of income I think is acceptable for the hours they work, the skills they have and the extreme responsibilities they carry.

I also don’t think people realise the mental health strain on nurses that I have witnessed. Is that similar for Drs? I mean they all deal with stuff on a daily basis that would break a lot of us rapidly.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"I hope I don’t open a can of worms here

Don’t NHS doctors pay their own professional fees for registration and cet?

I know when I was in optometry briefly the sums paid were surprising.

It comes out your own pocket.

So if for arguments sake your earning 37k but paying 8.5k in professional fees you’d be better off doing my job.

Is CPD what I called CET (continued education and training)? I’ve not been in healthcare for about 2 decades so I’m well out of date.

CPD = continuing professional development. Training, basically. And yes, nurses pay for their own registration etc too.

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By *tirling DarkCouple over a year ago

Stirling

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

My, aren't you special? How dare those Dr & Nurses go on strike, they should be payung for the privilege of serving their patients!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Doctors and nurses are prepared to let your family and friends suffer and die for their greed. Think on that.

My, aren't you special? How dare those Dr & Nurses go on strike, they should be payung for the privilege of serving their patients!"
I make 4 times what a UK junior doctor makes and I am a pharmacist. To keep the same level of care you should compensate the best and the brightest. They should strike.

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By *isKinkedKuntsMan over a year ago

Sheffield

"A fully qualified junior doctor earns around £60k a year, the pay claim they have submitted would take that to £78k a year

After how many years of intensive study (which they pay back) and on the job training?

So you believe everything the tories tell you? They are using the doctors as cover to get the gullible on side and turn them agaisnt the strikers. This also applies to all their rich mates as a way to take money out of a business, tax free!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If they taxed google and Amazon what they should be taxing them then 35% is not only do-able but necessary, stop fighting over the morsels and look at the bigger picture, the nhs needs revamping better pay and better services, rather than think how am I going pay the tax increase let the greedy pigs pay for it instead

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By *0shadesOfFilthMan over a year ago

nearby

If the government think £4bn tax free giveaway in pension tax relief is affordable to the country, then so is an increase in doctors/Nhs/public sector pay

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

CPD = continuing professional development. Training, basically. And yes, nurses pay for their own registration etc too. "

Ffs

I think it’s time we start to give nurses and low ranking Dra a tip

Im frightened we won’t have them in 10 years if it carries on like this or they will only be treating the wealthy

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I hope I don’t open a can of worms here

Don’t NHS doctors pay their own professional fees for registration and cet?

I know when I was in optometry briefly the sums paid were surprising.

It comes out your own pocket.

So if for arguments sake your earning 37k but paying 8.5k in professional fees you’d be better off doing my job.

Is CPD what I called CET (continued education and training)? I’ve not been in healthcare for about 2 decades so I’m well out of date.

Nurses pay £120 per year to keep their registration/pin but CPD is paid for by the Trust where they work. Some Trusts don't provide much training and development though, they just give them enough to hit the target the NMC set for CPD hours, to enable them to get through their 3 yearly revalidation, otherwise they would lose their pins and wouldn't be able to work as nurses.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Thank you for that, no where near as bad as I’d thought.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

There seem to be many sets of facts being used as usual. Whatever the "real" numbers are, they have to be funded. Along with all the other folks currently striking. Ill have to pay for their 35% raise out of my 2% raise. Its the money go round.

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By *0shadesOfFilthMan over a year ago

nearby

"As someone said on a different forum.

Do they take into account the cost of all the training they get?

Also, so i'm told, a large number of them go to work in other countries like Australia for better pay after the UK have trained them, no idea if this is true or not, just putting it out there"

They pay for training

Average doctor studrnt debt £82,000

Average nurse student debt £45,000

Both charged currently at 5.6% interest

https://nursingnotes.co.uk/news/education/student-loan-interest-rate-skyrockets-to-12-in-england/

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Isn’t the training a bit of each.

A friend of my brothers became a Dr, her degree was super expensive because of all the extra curricular and vocational stuff that was required. She was fortunate to have parents able to support her as it was more than full time study as far as I could see.

Then when she became a young dr I believe the training was partially provided in the work place and partially funded by her. That could be inaccurate though but being a registered health professional does carry eye watering fees.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"Isn’t the training a bit of each.

It is my understanding that doctors generally pay for their own. It is definitely the responsibility of individual doctors to organise and identity their own CPD. A quote from the BMJ:

"You are responsible for completing your own CPD; that is identifying CPD needs for your practice, planning how you will address those needs, and undertaking relevant CPD activities. Reflecting on your standards of medical practice is necessitated by the Good Medical Practice framework; this also extends to reflecting on your CPD activities you carry out to determine whether your learning is adding value to the care you provide to your patients."

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By *GermanInLondonMan over a year ago

London

Don't remember the exact quote from somewhere but it's valid:

The UK usually favours capitalism. Exception being the NHS... Suddenly it's all socialist with healthcare workers supposed to work for peanuts for the greater good.

Get a grip. Austerity over the last decade led to a huge stagnation in income within the NHS compared to the private sector. Do it's 35% to push this loss back to 0.

If you want healthcare staff to work treat them well. Otherwise they will go. Other countries, change of career, or private.

And train your own staff. At the moment a huge proportion of NHS staff is from other countries depleting their skilled workforce (and UK didn't pay a penny for their training). UK graduates are left with huge debts. Starting salary for juniors around 2k per months with huge expenses (indemnity, registration, exams). This income was the same 15y ago.

Society needs to decide if it values the pillars like healthcare, teaching. Or if we continue to support Banking systems with their bonuses and bailouts. Current government looks after their mates.

Sorry for the long post, rant over

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It is my understanding that doctors generally pay for their own. It is definitely the responsibility of individual doctors to organise and identity their own CPD. A quote from the BMJ:

Yes absolutely I’m sure that is the case.

I meant that as a junior Dr I think your work is a bit like an apprenticeship. Perhaps the NHS is providing mentoring would have said it more clearly.

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By *bw for fun againCouple over a year ago

wishaw

After reading some off these comments shows how this great country has changed let's be honest it was never great. Standing clapping now turn on them now it's the juniors fault. Seems to be everyone's fault except the torys get a grip

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

A couple of comments.

Health. Whatever that means. Isnt a party political matter. It doesnt only concern rich or poor, left or right.

No country. Not the really "good" ones... Not the really "bad" ones... Not the EU. And certainly none of the G20 Are trying to replicate our way of providing health care and building health care for the future. Just pause there for a moments thought.

Its been put to the country many times. Do we want to pay more for our health and the answer is a resounding no. Every time prescriptions go up there is outrage.

We are a bunch of cheapskates who know the cost of stuff but the value of nothing.

As for the strike. Anyone demanding a 35% pay rise isnt going to succeed, they know it. There is idiocy on all sides.

Out of interest. In similar careers. How do vets or lawyers or architects training periods compare? Long periods of study and debt. Long hours. On the job training for further years to become proficient.? Anyone have insight?

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By *idnight RamblerMan over a year ago

Pershore

"A couple of comments.

Health. Whatever that means. Isnt a party political matter. It doesnt only concern rich or poor, left or right.

Its been put to the country many times. Do we want to pay more for our health and the answer is a resounding no. Every time prescriptions go up there is outrage.

We are a bunch of cheapskates who know the cost of stuff but the value of nothing.

As for the strike. Anyone demanding a 35% pay rise isnt going to succeed, they know it. There is idiocy on all sides.

Most other 'professional' careers have comparable qualification and training, including exams, assessment and CPD. Admittedly medicine is more rigorous than most - for obvious reasons. Remuneration in medicine is skewed to high earnings in mid-career (or how else can GPs work part-time and retire at 55?)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

lol

Dr Rob Laurenson encourages all doctors to go on strike and then he takes holidays on the dates of the strikes, you couldnt make it up if you wanted too

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"lol

Dr Rob Laurenson encourages all doctors to go on strike and then he takes holidays on the dates of the strikes, you couldnt make it up if you wanted too"

His holiday was booked for a family wedding what do you expect him to do?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"lol

Dr Rob Laurenson encourages all doctors to go on strike and then he takes holidays on the dates of the strikes, you couldnt make it up if you wanted too

His holiday was booked for a family wedding what do you expect him to do?

yes, ofcourse it was

pathetic.

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By *atisfy janeWoman over a year ago

Torquay

A junior doctor is a doctor who has qualified as a doctor, but is still undergoing training (around 10 years) towards being a consultant, GP, or Specialist.

More than ten years from medical school in the case of hospital jobs and med school is five or six years. Very few would make anywhere near 200k!

Simply the most comical post I've seen on Fab for many a year

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"lol

Dr Rob Laurenson encourages all doctors to go on strike and then he takes holidays on the dates of the strikes, you couldnt make it up if you wanted too

His holiday was booked for a family wedding what do you expect him to do?

yes, ofcourse it was

pathetic."

No need for that attitude simply because someones leave entitlement has been taken. Or perhaps the wedding should have been cancelled?

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By *londebiguyMan over a year ago

Southport

"Just wanted to stay from my perspective good luck to them. Hope people start to see how much the NHS relies on you and how valuable your role is along with the nurses, paramedics and other AHPs.

But.

35%?!"

They will not get that of course but no harm going in with a strong figure and showing that you mean business.

They've not had a wage rise for a very long time.

Meanwhile all of the vile money grabbing MPs get a rise each year and never knock it back .

Despicable.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"lol

Dr Rob Laurenson encourages all doctors to go on strike and then he takes holidays on the dates of the strikes, you couldnt make it up if you wanted too

His holiday was booked for a family wedding what do you expect him to do?

yes, ofcourse it was

pathetic."

Do you have evidence it is otherwise than stated? If not, hush.

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

"lol

Dr Rob Laurenson encourages all doctors to go on strike and then he takes holidays on the dates of the strikes, you couldnt make it up if you wanted too

His holiday was booked for a family wedding what do you expect him to do?

yes, ofcourse it was

pathetic."

I mean I guess the wedding he has been pictured at could have been arranged after the strike at very short notice just to facilitate a few days leave.

But it seems unlikely...

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By *he RamblerMan over a year ago

aberdeen

"A fully qualified junior doctor earns around £60k a year, the pay claim they have submitted would take that to £78k a year

After how many years of intensive study (which they pay back) and on the job training?

Tell me Harry; when you try adding 2 to 2 do you often get 4 ?

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By *elvet RopeMan over a year ago

by the big field

Strange how we cant afford to pay medical staff enough to keep may in the job or entice enough people to plug the gaping holes in the numbers, but we can afford to give MP's a very generous final salary pension, huge expenses bills and pay for them to refurbish one home, then another and in many cases, yet another- while letting them keep the profits...all with virtually zero control on their standard of work, delivery on promises, satisfaction of the voters or attendance at parliament

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By *viatrixWoman over a year ago

Redhill

I was just discharged from hospital a couple of hours ago after suspected heart disease. I saw the junior doctors at the picket line when I got into A&E two days ago. I respect them and respect the right they have to strike.

Having spent about 12 hrs in A&E and seeing the way doctors are spoken to by some people makes me wonder why on earth they’d want to do this job. Especially at £14 an hour. They do it because they have true vocation.

My complete respect to all NHS staff and I hope someday they are rewarded fairly for their time, dedication and vocation.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

Im always intrigued by these threads. The very few accurate facts, and then comparing one inaccurate fact with another inaccurate fact to make some sort of point and offering no real solutions beyond the cry of "pay them what they are worth".

So my question would be... What are they worth and how would the overall package which includes pension, overtime, bonuses and other benefits be structured that would make people happy.?

Is 50k for a trainee enough? 100k?150k?pick a number and a pension plan.

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By *isaB45Woman over a year ago

Fabville

For years, many NHS staff have been paid below the rate of inflation, effectively resulting in salary decreases year on year.

This is in addition to rock-bottom staffing levels, poor working conditions and low morale.

Pay restoration is is just staff asking to be paid a fair living wage. Why is this so wrong?

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By *red333Man over a year ago

Dorchester

"Just wanted to stay from my perspective good luck to them. Hope people start to see how much the NHS relies on you and how valuable your role is along with the nurses, paramedics and other AHPs.

But.

35%?!"
but life over death you cant put a price to it

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By *heRazorsEdgeMan over a year ago

Wales/ All over UK

I like how people criticise the Junior Doctors for going on strike because it will be “a risk to patients and care”….. because obviously it proves that they’re vital for the health of the nation and should therefore be paid accordingly

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By *idnight RamblerMan over a year ago

Pershore

Junior doctors do seem to be getting a raw deal given the time and cost they invest in becoming qualified. That said, rewards in medicine come in mid/late career - that's why GPs can work part-time and retire at 55. Consultants seem to find enough to time to moonlight in the lucrative private sector.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

"For years, many NHS staff have been paid below the rate of inflation, effectively resulting in salary decreases year on year.

This is in addition to rock-bottom staffing levels, poor working conditions and low morale.

Pay restoration is is just staff asking to be paid a fair living wage. Why is this so wrong?

Thing is you cant turn the clock back. Sadly lots of folks have experienced exactly the same as you say all the nhs has. Doesnt make it right nor wrong, its just some relevant context. What is a fair living wage? How is such a concept established? Should the same principle then be applied to all workers?

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By *elle and JamesCouple over a year ago

Hornchurch

"lol

Dr Rob Laurenson encourages all doctors to go on strike and then he takes holidays on the dates of the strikes, you couldnt make it up if you wanted too"

Ok, can you tell me what difference you think it makes whether he is on holiday during the strike? You lose ten fab points if you mention 'negotiation' at any point in your answer.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"I was just discharged from hospital a couple of hours ago after suspected heart disease. I saw the junior doctors at the picket line when I got into A&E two days ago. I respect them and respect the right they have to strike.

My complete respect to all NHS staff and I hope someday they are rewarded fairly for their time, dedication and vocation.

Espero que estés bien, amiga

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"For years, many NHS staff have been paid below the rate of inflation, effectively resulting in salary decreases year on year.

This is in addition to rock-bottom staffing levels, poor working conditions and low morale.

Pay restoration is is just staff asking to be paid a fair living wage. Why is this so wrong?

How does comparing this particular strike for these particular workers with other workers help? Other workers may be worse off. It doesn't mean what the junior doctors are asking for isn't valid.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I personally agree with them. Things are never going to get better unless they make a stand, they’re making it! I’ve worked with many Doctors over the years, but I’ve also had my life and my children’s lives saved by “junior” doctors, they deserve it! It’s okay restoration

Mrs

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

"For years, many NHS staff have been paid below the rate of inflation, effectively resulting in salary decreases year on year.

This is in addition to rock-bottom staffing levels, poor working conditions and low morale.

Pay restoration is is just staff asking to be paid a fair living wage. Why is this so wrong?

How does comparing this particular strike for these particular workers with other workers help? Other workers may be worse off. It doesn't mean what the junior doctors are asking for isn't valid."

No it doesnt. But is what they are asking for a fair living wage, and a fair pension package? How and who decides its fair? Is fair the measure by which pay disputes are to be settled?

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By *wisted999Man over a year ago

North Bucks

Just seen a post online.

Often the most senior surgeon on shift at night

Performs life saving surgery on your child.

Then comes in on day off to see if you are ok.

All for £22 an hour which is less than his barber.

That can’t be right……

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"For years, many NHS staff have been paid below the rate of inflation, effectively resulting in salary decreases year on year.

This is in addition to rock-bottom staffing levels, poor working conditions and low morale.

Pay restoration is is just staff asking to be paid a fair living wage. Why is this so wrong?

How does comparing this particular strike for these particular workers with other workers help? Other workers may be worse off. It doesn't mean what the junior doctors are asking for isn't valid.

No it doesnt. But is what they are asking for a fair living wage, and a fair pension package? How and who decides its fair? Is fair the measure by which pay disputes are to be settled? "

I think you know there are no concrete answers to those questions.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just seen a post online.

Often the most senior surgeon on shift at night

Performs life saving surgery on your child.

Then comes in on day off to see if you are ok.

All for £22 an hour which is less than his barber.

That can’t be right……

What a ridiculous comparison.

The barber has overheads, he may see only 1 client that day.

£22 an hour is more than some councils pay for social care. That has to pay the carer, the office team, managers, training, office rent, business rates, NI,cqc fees, software licences etc etc etc.

Don't see anyone striking over that, because they genuinely care for clients.

How many dying is acceptable collateral damage for doctors to get what they want?

There should be another way.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just seen a post online.

Often the most senior surgeon on shift at night

Performs life saving surgery on your child.

Then comes in on day off to see if you are ok.

All for £22 an hour which is less than his barber.

That can’t be right……

What a ridiculous comparison.

The barber has overheads, he may see only 1 client that day.

£22 an hour is more than some councils pay for social care. That has to pay the carer, the office team, managers, training, office rent, business rates, NI,cqc fees, software licences etc etc etc.

Don't see anyone striking over that, because they genuinely care for clients.

How many dying is acceptable collateral damage for doctors to get what they want?

There should be another way."

Those working in social care should be paid more. For sure. But stating that they wouldn't strike because they care for their clients? The implication that doctors and nurses don't?

Really, can anyone in a caring profession never fight for better conditions and pay?

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By *pen2UMan over a year ago

Telford

100% agree with the strikes. However I feel terrible for all the 7 million patients now waiting for their appointments.

I get why they're doing it and I really well and truly wishing the Government would listen to them and agree on qhatever they want so the patients can get what they need!

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

"Just seen a post online.

Often the most senior surgeon on shift at night

Performs life saving surgery on your child.

Then comes in on day off to see if you are ok.

All for £22 an hour which is less than his barber.

That can’t be right……

What a ridiculous comparison.

The barber has overheads, he may see only 1 client that day.

£22 an hour is more than some councils pay for social care. That has to pay the carer, the office team, managers, training, office rent, business rates, NI,cqc fees, software licences etc etc etc.

Don't see anyone striking over that, because they genuinely care for clients.

How many dying is acceptable collateral damage for doctors to get what they want?

There should be another way."

People in social care aren't striking bevause it's a sector with minimal unionisation which leaves them open to exploitation from their employers.

That's the harsh reality. It's certainly not because they cate more despite what you might imply

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By *oeBeansMan over a year ago

Derby

"Also, so i'm told, a large number of them go to work in other countries like Australia for better pay after the UK have trained them, no idea if this is true or not, just putting it out there"

^ social media in a nutshell right there...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

People in social care aren't striking bevause it's a sector with minimal unionisation which leaves them open to exploitation from their employers.

That's the harsh reality. It's certainly not because they cate more despite what you might imply"

The employers are exploited by councils and NHS. I refer back to my £22/hour comments.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It is sad that some people think Consultants sit in their office chatting all day or are down Harley Street making millions. I don't know a single colleague who does either of those. Instead after 15 years of surgical training, my reward is to be waiting in theatre now at 2am to perform an operation which I hope will save someone's life. This is normal for me and is not just because my junior team are on strike. I could correct many other inaccuracies in the thread but let's just say that both junior and senior doctors in the NHS work hard everyday to keep you safe and well. I will leave you to decide what you think that is worth.

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By *red333Man over a year ago

Dorchester

"It is sad that some people think Consultants sit in their office chatting all day or are down Harley Street making millions. I don't know a single colleague who does either of those. Instead after 15 years of surgical training, my reward is to be waiting in theatre now at 2am to perform an operation which I hope will save someone's life. This is normal for me and is not just because my junior team are on strike. I could correct many other inaccuracies in the thread but let's just say that both junior and senior doctors in the NHS work hard everyday to keep you safe and well. I will leave you to decide what you think that is worth. "
Its worth a lot coming from the mouth of a swinging junior Dr. I don't put a price on it and good luck

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By *agneto.Man over a year ago

Bham

"Just seen a post online.

Often the most senior surgeon on shift at night

Performs life saving surgery on your child.

Then comes in on day off to see if you are ok.

All for £22 an hour which is less than his barber.

That can’t be right……

What a ridiculous comparison.

The barber has overheads, he may see only 1 client that day.

£22 an hour is more than some councils pay for social care. That has to pay the carer, the office team, managers, training, office rent, business rates, NI,cqc fees, software licences etc etc etc.

Don't see anyone striking over that, because they genuinely care for clients.

How many dying is acceptable collateral damage for doctors to get what they want?

There should be another way."

There should and is, it's called dialogue. However the government don't listen or sometimes even meet the unions unless there's strikes.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

Back to the emotional black hole of paying someone what some other people think they are worth. Not sure that is how pay and pension package agreements are constructed, based on what poorly informed but emotionally invested bystanders think.

Good work last night. Hope the procedure went well for all.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Just seen a post online.

Often the most senior surgeon on shift at night

Performs life saving surgery on your child.

Then comes in on day off to see if you are ok.

All for £22 an hour which is less than his barber.

That can’t be right……

What a ridiculous comparison.

The barber has overheads, he may see only 1 client that day.

£22 an hour is more than some councils pay for social care. That has to pay the carer, the office team, managers, training, office rent, business rates, NI,cqc fees, software licences etc etc etc.

Don't see anyone striking over that, because they genuinely care for clients.

How many dying is acceptable collateral damage for doctors to get what they want?

There should be another way.

There should and is, it's called dialogue. However the government don't listen or sometimes even meet the unions unless there's strikes. "

I read that Steve Barclay was in negotiations with the BMA for just 30 minutes last month before he walked. He was on Twitter denigrating them just yesterday - hasn't made a counter offer and now ACAS may need to step in because he won't negotiate.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The Tories want a minimum free emergency care public health & private healthcare for everything else. Sadly the strikes will only further this agenda by alienating the public opinion away from the NHS. People now think the NHS is waiting lists, delays in GPs & diagnostics are all that's possible so are coming round to the cause nicely. The sad part is that this has been deliberately planned since 2012-13 within the NHS itself.

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By *d59michelleTV/TS over a year ago

walsall

"As someone said on a different forum.

Do they take into account the cost of all the training they get?

Also, so i'm told, a large number of them go to work in other countries like Australia for better pay after the UK have trained them, no idea if this is true or not, just putting it out there"

Wanted down under on the telly has loads of NHS workers on it going to Australia and NZ for a better work life balance

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"In the context of the last 3 years, all healthcare professionals risked (and some even lost) thier lives going into work during the covid pandemic ... i think on reflection the government response promoting meaningless claps seems a bit sickening and more needs to be done to pay these people fairly.

This all whilst MP clinked champagne glasses at the heart of government in illegal lockdown parties.

Does anyone think these professionals are worth 15-30% less than they were 15 years ago?

Get similar money at Aldi/Lidl, its a farce

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By *vilgasamWoman over a year ago

The dot in the i

Saw something this morning saying the French kept the guillotine from the last revolution in place outside their government buildings

In the recent strikes they’ve been chanting referring to using it and not being afraid of repeating

The government need to remember who works for who

Makes me wonder if we should take a leaf out of their book

I support the strikes 100%

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By *emorefridaCouple over a year ago

La la land

Though I support anyone who strikes. I do find it a bit disingenuous to compare the Drs wages to retail or hospitality staff.

Hospitality staff for example are often on zero hours contracts, if the restaurant isn't busy they're told to go home. So no monthly pay security. No redundancy packages, no pension schemes and often no career progression, in 20 years time which job would the majority prefer to be in? I don't think it's a helpful comparison and is more likely to cause resentment towards the junior doctors.

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By *red333Man over a year ago

Dorchester

Look i had to go to the hospital the other night because of an illness i arrived at one hospital at 8pm and was transferred to A&E where i came out about 5am basically i was seen about 1am given some ibuprofen and blood pressure was taken then again about an hour later to have blood tests and my blood pressure taken they actually too my blood pressure 3 times but i was finished with consultations about 1.15 am so was asked to wait but was told my bloods wouldnt be processed if i left a Dr saw me some 3 hours later to tell me my blood tests were clear, so i spent 9 hours i received no medication other than a soluble ibuprofen, i saw 2 guys dr#nk who had been in punch ups and in a bloody mess, blood running down faces, one of them was with a rather stunning female who organised a lift home about 3am without her boyfriend being treated, i actually even though my evening was wasted have great respect for what these junior doctors do and have to put up with but i suggest if they were on strike and you had a life threatening illness or somebody close to you had the same how would you feel if they died because no treatment was available or they had to wait much longer to get treatment?

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"Though I support anyone who strikes. I do find it a bit disingenuous to compare the Drs wages to retail or hospitality staff.

Though the specific comparison with Aldi/Lidl may be fair. They don't use zero hours contracts. They also have increased hourly pay four times this year to reflect the increased cost of living. Minimum hourly rate at Aldi now is £11.40ph or £12.85ph within the M25. Which is, obviously, less than junior docs starting out, who apparently earn around the equivalent of £14ph.

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By *emorefridaCouple over a year ago

La la land

"Though I support anyone who strikes. I do find it a bit disingenuous to compare the Drs wages to retail or hospitality staff.

Which is why I used hospitality staff for comparison. It doesn't invalidate the points of job security, pensions and clearly defined career progression routes. They are not comparable careers even if the starting wages may be similar.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"Though I support anyone who strikes. I do find it a bit disingenuous to compare the Drs wages to retail or hospitality staff.

I agree on that comparison, was taking the earlier retail comparison given by another poster (of Aldi/Lidl).

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By *traighttothepoint20Man over a year ago

Bradford

Doctors have striked not only for the pay but due to poor working conditions

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"Doctors have striked not only for the pay but due to poor working conditions

Yup, same as teachers and lecturers. But the media only focusses on pay

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Sadly, my Dad passed away a couple of days ago

I have got to say, the professionalism, understanding and warmth we were shown during his last couple of hours was outstanding

From the ambulance crew, through to the nurses, through to the 3 doctors that came to assess him, it was just seamless

They acted as one and despite being undeniably busy, made his final moments much, much easier than they could have been

They deserve better

Those that put them down for trying to better their lot, do not deserve them

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By *a LunaWoman over a year ago

South

"Sadly, my Dad passed away a couple of days ago

I have got to say, the professionalism, understanding and warmth we were shown during his last couple of hours was outstanding

From the ambulance crew, through to the nurses, through to the 3 doctors that came to assess him, it was just seamless

They acted as one and despite being undeniably busy, made his final moments much, much easier than they could have been

They deserve better

Those that put them down for trying to better their lot, do not deserve them "

Sorry for your loss Bussy x

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By *uksungCouple over a year ago

wednesbury

I'm striking for pay and conditions. When the government started to mess about with minimum wage they failed to lift every wage. I retrained to get a professional (at the time) well paid job. I tolerated 10 years of austerity in the hope it would change. However, know I see people on the same wage or better than me

Without the hassle that goes along with my job. I'm all for the minimum wage but Common sense should come to the forefront and lift wages in all jobs otherwise whats the incentive. That then is socialism in my view. Why work hard and take on debt to get yourself a reaso able career if you are on thw same as someone who doesn't. Oh and I do think lower paid should get more than they do. I feel the cleaners and auxiliary staff at whatever institution are to over looked. They have my vote any day for heros of the NHS.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Sadly, my Dad passed away a couple of days ago

I have got to say, the professionalism, understanding and warmth we were shown during his last couple of hours was outstanding

From the ambulance crew, through to the nurses, through to the 3 doctors that came to assess him, it was just seamless

They acted as one and despite being undeniably busy, made his final moments much, much easier than they could have been

They deserve better

Those that put them down for trying to better their lot, do not deserve them "

I'm sorry to hear about your dad.

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By *spookie666Man over a year ago

newmarket

I do have friends who are doctors and nurses. Nearly half have left for Oz, Canada and US. One of them is a neurosurgeon, who left his £90k consultant job here and moved to US for $500k, this was a few years ago and is currently on $1.2mn; we all can decide what healthcare staff are worth.

We will see a huge exodus of health care staff. As one of my friends eloquently put - if I work in a supermarket, I get the same hourly rate, free car park, 10% off on groceries and dont need to spend money on registration and other courses; why should I continue to work in healthcare!

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By *traighttothepoint20Man over a year ago

Bradford

The exodus will start soon, doctors want to provide a safe place for patients to be looked after

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By *iamondsmiles.Woman over a year ago

little house on the praire

I spent a lot of time in hospital last year. Once was for four weeks and really see how damn hard they work. They never stopped for breaks or if they did they where always late taking them. The last time I went in it was boiling hot summer and they where running around in their masks sweating their bollocks of for 12 1/2 hrs then had to be back in work the next day.

I also saw how some patients treated them and it wasn't pleasant.

I do worry if I have an emergency when the strikes are on though

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By *traighttothepoint20Man over a year ago

Bradford

"I spent a lot of time in hospital last year. Once was for four weeks and really see how damn hard they work. They never stopped for breaks or if they did they where always late taking them. The last time I went in it was boiling hot summer and they where running around in their masks sweating their bollocks of for 12 1/2 hrs then had to be back in work the next day.

I also saw how some patients treated them and it wasn't pleasant.

I do worry if I have an emergency when the strikes are on though "

Nothing to worry about the A and E is well staffed with consultants

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I agree with the points about NMW.

This year it went up by 9.7%, so all public sector pay should go up by 9.7%. In fact all pay should, to maintain pay differentials , but it doesn't.

In sectors such as social care where pay is at or close to NMW, do the rates paid by councils and NHS go up by 9.7%? Not many do.

We are facing a mass exodus in health and social care and the only solution seems to be recruit from overseas, taking skilled staff out of those countries who need them.

As with most systems that have some of government involvement it's fucked up.

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By *acktopervMan over a year ago

Stourport-On-Severn

"I do have friends who are doctors and nurses. Nearly half have left for Oz, Canada and US. One of them is a neurosurgeon, who left his £90k consultant job here and moved to US for $500k, this was a few years ago and is currently on $1.2mn; we all can decide what healthcare staff are worth. "

I also have a friend that is a heart surgeon and was a consultant in the NHS. I don't know what he earnt when he lived in the UK, never needed to ask or was told lol. But he now lives and works in New York in an apartment not far from where John Lennon lived, he also has a marina house overlooking Miami worth over $5m.

The reason i'm posting this is because we are told time and time again by our government is unless we pay the highly skilled enough, they will leave. They are always talking about Bankers and multi billionairs of course.

What really matters though is the transferable skills of our NHS staff. Paying them enough to actually keep them within the NHS is what this is all about.

I have another friend that is an HCA in the NHS, she chooses to only work part time for the NHS to actually keep her credentials live. She actually works in the private sector to actually earn a living.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

What really matters though is the transferable skills of our NHS staff. Paying them enough to actually keep them within the NHS is what this is all about.

Its a good point. The coexistance of the same people in the same hospital using thr same resources and seeingthe same patient's. On a tuesday its a private clinic and on a weds its an nhs clinic. One they get paid a fortune for the other they get paid whatever nhs pays.

It doesnt work.

As for those good enough and lucky enough to get offered multi millions to live in new york. Im assuming that is like every other profession. If youre at the very top you get great opportunities open up. Much like top footballers. But not every footballer... Nor junior dr is going to get offered 5m a year in the private sector

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By *rHotNottsMan over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

"And in Australia they would earn more than double to do the same job.

A lawyer with similar training is on twice as much too.

UK is a very poor country , it has no money and services that government interfere with like transport, housing, borders, health and education are all very broken.

Giving all the doctors 35% will just make everything else even worse.

The government should reduce taxes instead and let the private sector fix everything , because they clearly can’t do it

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

"And in Australia they would earn more than double to do the same job.

A lawyer with similar training is on twice as much too.

UK is a very poor country , it has no money and services that government interfere with like transport, housing, borders, health and education are all very broken.

Giving all the doctors 35% will just make everything else even worse.

The government should reduce taxes instead and let the private sector fix everything , because they clearly can’t do it "

Sad but true and on the money

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By *arkbaneMan over a year ago

East lerds

"Just wanted to stay from my perspective good luck to them. Hope people start to see how much the NHS relies on you and how valuable your role is along with the nurses, paramedics and other AHPs.

But.

35%?!"

You have to look at the crap they have had over past 10 years

Way below or none

We were all happy for their sacrifices during lockdown

You wanna put your self in their situation

Would you have risked your life or your family’s life for the pittance they are on ?

Hos we forget !!!

Don’t look at it as 35 % but 3.5% over 10 years

Doesn’t look as much does it

Stop falling for all the right wing misdirection

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By *ortyairCouple over a year ago

Wallasey

"And in Australia they would earn more than double to do the same job.

A lawyer with similar training is on twice as much too.

UK is a very poor country , it has no money and services that government interfere with like transport, housing, borders, health and education are all very broken.

Giving all the doctors 35% will just make everything else even worse.

The government should reduce taxes instead and let the private sector fix everything , because they clearly can’t do it "

The Government don't want to fix this mess. It's of their own doing. They want to make everyone think it cannot be fixed so privatisation looks attractive so they can then sell it of to their mates and cronies xxx

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By *red333Man over a year ago

Dorchester

"I'm striking for pay and conditions. When the government started to mess about with minimum wage they failed to lift every wage. I retrained to get a professional (at the time) well paid job. I tolerated 10 years of austerity in the hope it would change. However, know I see people on the same wage or better than me

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By *0shadesOfFilthMan over a year ago

nearby

If country can afford to support 68,300 non dom tax dodgers like PMs wife and £100M to crown the king then it can afford doctors pay restoration.

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By *elle and JamesCouple over a year ago

Hornchurch

"And in Australia they would earn more than double to do the same job.

A lawyer with similar training is on twice as much too.

UK is a very poor country , it has no money and services that government interfere with like transport, housing, borders, health and education are all very broken.

Giving all the doctors 35% will just make everything else even worse.

The government should reduce taxes instead and let the private sector fix everything , because they clearly can’t do it "

Ten years ago (ish) the NHS was the best performing health care system in the world according to several metrics. It clearly can thrive whilst being publicly funded, but it requires a government that doesn't believe in the primacy of the market in all things at all times to do so.

All those services you list are broken because the government doesn't want them to flourish. It isn't a failure of public funding but a policy choice.

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By *im RoyleCouple over a year ago

chester

"Just wanted to stay from my perspective good luck to them. Hope people start to see how much the NHS relies on you and how valuable your role is along with the nurses, paramedics and other AHPs.

Yes!!!!

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