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Trans gender war.

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By *orianGrey200 OP Man over a year ago

birmingham

Are we seeing the end of the transition gender movement with all the bad press going on?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Didn’t know it was a ‘movement’. I do think both positions are hardening lately.

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By *rFoxAndXenoCouple over a year ago

Weymouth

There will always be folks who feel they don't fit the mould, and want to present differently to how others expect. Unfortunately a minority of fools end up giving them a bad name

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"Are we seeing the end of the transition gender movement with all the bad press going on? "

Why do you think it's as you phrase it?

Seeing the so called 'news' last night that an ex all black has come out we both said 'why is this news'?

I think societally we are very slowly becoming more accepting of differences which is no bad thing and whilst recognising there is push back and a lack of understanding I think most people don't care about how someone presents themselves in how they interact daily..

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By *ea monkeyMan over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

I think that it’s remarkably myopic to see one news story and tar a whole minority as a result of one. But then that reaction isn’t a new thing and the press love to stir up ‘us and them’ sentiments.

Understanding and education is the best tool against ignorance

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Is there bad press? Either way no, I don't think the movement has stopped. There's a whole generation of teens out there and I'm sure still many older people who feel they belong to another gender.

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By *reyToTheFairiesWoman over a year ago

Carlisle usually

I mean, the short answer is no

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

And it’s never been a war.

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By *altyMouthsCouple over a year ago

Aberdeen

This would be like saying Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech silenced black and minority equality.

More people are talking about trans now. Admittedly most get their influence from the negative press. However the same happened when race was brought and, although things for non whites in the UK are not there yet, they're a lot further forward than the 1960s

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

[Removed by poster at 31/01/23 09:42:25]

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

"Are we seeing the end of the transition gender movement with all the bad press going on? "

Its a lot more than bad press, in America on particular its oppression and we are goung the same way.

I find the wording 'transition gender movement' interesting and would love to know what you meant by what appears a very specific wording?

But no Trans people are going nowhere, and there's plenty of is willing to stand with them as allies despite what the media will tell you

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I tend to avoid all the loudmouth 'I can shout louder than thou' people from both 'sides'. As a TransGirl I just want to live my life the best I can and as peacefully as I can. I do wish I had come 'out' earlier as it would have been easier for things like surgery etc but I can't change that.

From my own personal experience most people really don't care and the only comment I've had using the women's toilets is 'where did you get that handbag?'

I'm lucky in that I have had nothing but love and support from everyone including a friend who is highly religious. Others I know are not so lucky and have had family members abandon/otracize them.

Realising your Trans and taking that road to be who you really are is a hard and emotional journey and not one taken on a whim. It's not because I want to be different..it's because I want to be me and be able to look at myself in a mirror and not hate what I see.

I don't like vocal flag wavers saying what I should think/believe etc and I don't like others telling the world Trans people are some kind of threat to civilisation as we know it.

I don't get into arguments as who is right/wrong on the internet as it never gets anywhere and ends up in who can throw the most shade.

The only thing I would say to virulent 'anti-trans' people is think about how you would feel if your son/daughter was Trans as was being painted as Trans people are painted by those 'opposing' Trans rights and to those Trans people shouting loudly back I would say you get further with a polite conversation and listening than berating.

This is all just off the top of my head early in the morning so hope it makes some kind of sense!

Sadly 'Transgirl goes to shops and buys crisps...nothing happened' doesn't sell many papers.

LGBTQ+ acceptance etc has come a long way and yes it has been a bumpy road. Both sides should IMO do more listening than shouting which is why you have two ears and one mouth.

God that was a ramble wasn't it ! Sorry!

I don't have all /many answers as I can only speak for myself and my experience but feel free to ask me anything and if I have any thoughts on it I will answer.

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By *ebauchedDeviantsPt2Couple over a year ago

Cumbria

[Removed by poster at 31/01/23 11:21:59]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I tend to avoid all the loudmouth 'I can shout louder than thou' people from both 'sides'. As a TransGirl I just want to live my life the best I can and as peacefully as I can. I do wish I had come 'out' earlier as it would have been easier for things like surgery etc but I can't change that.

From my own personal experience most people really don't care and the only comment I've had using the women's toilets is 'where did you get that handbag?'

I'm lucky in that I have had nothing but love and support from everyone including a friend who is highly religious. Others I know are not so lucky and have had family members abandon/otracize them.

I don't like vocal flag wavers saying what I should think/believe etc and I don't like others telling the world Trans people are some kind of threat to civilisation as we know it.

I don't get into arguments as who is right/wrong on the internet as it never gets anywhere and ends up in who can throw the most shade.

This is all just off the top of my head early in the morning so hope it makes some kind of sense!

Sadly 'Transgirl goes to shops and buys crisps...nothing happened' doesn't sell many papers.

LGBTQ+ acceptance etc has come a long way and yes it has been a bumpy road. Both sides should IMO do more listening than shouting which is why you have two ears and one mouth.

God that was a ramble wasn't it ! Sorry!

I don't have all /many answers as I can only speak for myself and my experience but feel free to ask me anything and if I have any thoughts on it I will answer.

Perfectly put lovely xx

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By *ebauchedDeviantsPt2Couple over a year ago

Cumbria

People trapped in the wrong body will always want to transition, one bad news story won’t stop that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Elaborate on 'bad press'...?

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By *aitonelMan over a year ago

Travelling

Neither side is going anywhere anytime soon.

Just like racism it is going to linger and be fuelled by both sides for a very long ass time. It may get better in ways, then suddenly conflict explodes again. Rubbing each up the wrong way and the cycle of hatred starts over. The wheel keeps turning.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"People trapped in the wrong body will always want to transition, one bad news story won’t stop that."

And so they should if 100% certain & it brings happiness, that said the majority will not play pretend so choosing pronouns is irrelevant as like Sam Smith if you look like a man & sound like one people use a pronoun that comes to mind.

That said & in truth no one is trapped in the wrong body, sadly some feel they are.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

• It's not a movement

• Trans is not 'what' you are, but who you are

• Trans people do not choose to be trans in the same way gay people do not choose to be gay, straight people do not choose to be straight, black people do not choose to be black etc. This is probably the most misunderstood aspect of being transgender

• There have even been studies in the fields of neuroscience, biology, endocrinology etc. that prove being trans is not some delusion, but is hard-wired into a person's brain chemistry, genetics, chromosomal makeup (chromosomes are more complex than XX/XY, who'd have thought it?) and, often, hormonal makeup

• The media is stoking a culture war against Trans people to distract from the mess the country/world is in as a result of the billionaire class's greed and the political class's incompetence, don't fall for it

• The actions of a few should not be used to tar a whole group of people, ever. To do so is prejudice, plain and simple

• I came out as Trans 3 months ago and they've been the happiest 3 months of my life, so it's safe to say we're going nowhere

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

" That said & in truth no one is trapped in the wrong body, sadly some feel they are.

How would you describe the feeling that your biological sex and your gender identity do not align?

We have biological sex - the sex organs we are born with.

We have sexual identity - heterosexual, homosexual, etc.

We have gender expression - how we want others to see out gender

We have gender identity - the gender we believe we are.

Google the Genderbread infogram for a fuller description.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"People trapped in the wrong body will always want to transition, one bad news story won’t stop that.

That said & in truth no one is trapped in the wrong body, sadly some feel they are.

I agree that people will generally assign pronouns based on what a person looks like...which, in itself perfectly demonstrates how gender and biological sex are not the same thing...but regardless of that we should always respect someone's identity. If a fully-bearded male-presenting person told me they were actually a closeted trans woman, I would use she/her pronouns for her because I have no reason to doubt them until they give me one.

Sam Smith is Non-binary, so they do not use he/him pronouns. There is no right way to be Non-binary, so again, if someone tells me they use they/them pronouns, I will respect that. There's no reason not to show someone that basic respect. Non-binary people do not ascribe to a gender binary and therefore do not use gendered pronouns.

Whilst the "wrong body" analogy does apply to many Trans people, a lot of us refute it as it is overly-simplistic and in many cases isn't necessarily true. Being Trans describes someone's internal perception of themselves and their internal experiences and therefore encompasses much much more than just your physical body. Many do have severe body dysmorphia, but it is not an essential aspect of being Trans.

I hope that proves helpful

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By *idnight RamblerMan over a year ago

Pershore

There is a dawning realisation that any change to social norms brings unintended consequences.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"People trapped in the wrong body will always want to transition, one bad news story won’t stop that.

That said & in truth no one is trapped in the wrong body, sadly some feel they are.

I hope that proves helpful

*Clarification

MOST Non-binary people do not use gendered pronouns and prefer to be referred to by they/them pronouns. However, most NB people who do use gendered pronouns will be happy for people to assume their pronouns based on their appearance. And if you get it wrong they'll probably just politely correct you and move on because not everything breaks out into a big argument in the real world, unlike the internet lol. If you're unsure, always ask!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There is a dawning realisation that any change to social norms brings unintended consequences."

Not necessarily. There have always been Trans people. There have always been a minority of Trans people who commit heinous crimes. Just as there has always been a minority of Cisgender people who commit heinous crimes. The difference now is that there is something to be gained politically by the media giving disproportionate attention to Trans criminals, particularly sex offenders. Namely, a culture war to distract us all from that pesky cost of living crisis, Tory corruption etc.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Neither side is going anywhere anytime soon.

Most of it is fuelled by the media. I think if people took a step back and recognised this they'd realise there is no reason to hate each other at all. Imagine the positive change we would see in society if we collectively directed this kind of energy towards the media and political class who actually oppress us?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

DaisyRaine, I like your outlook. I agree, it's about mutual respect and understanding.

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By *ssex_tomMan over a year ago

Chelmsford

What is the latest on the toilet issue.. ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What is the latest on the toilet issue.. ?"

Is it not all over the news?

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By *ust RachelTV/TS over a year ago

Horsham

"DaisyRaine, I like your outlook. I agree, it's about mutual respect and understanding.

Sadly mutual respect is pretty much dying out there, just look at any aspect of daily life. from driving cars, to reading some posts on here.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What is the latest on the toilet issue.. ?"

There is no toilet issue. Trans people can use the toilets that align with their gender identity as they have been able to under the Human Rights Act for decades now - without issue, might I add.

Signs on toilet doors are not some magical forcefield that stop predators from entering. If a man who has ill-intent towards women and wants to enter a women's bathroom then he doesn't need to dress as a woman to do so.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Personally I don't give a flying fuck what narrow minded, shallow, Dickensian thinking, bigots think or say about me.

Those that matter to me know and support me.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

And when did it become a movement whatever the fuck that means

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By *aitonelMan over a year ago

Travelling

"Neither side is going anywhere anytime soon.

Fuelled but people still hold those views, regardless of the media. You are giving the media too much credit when it comes to how people settle on how they feel about something.

A eutopia where everyone accepts everyone is barely even a pipe dream, hate and grudges run far too deep to go away in even a couple of generations. Racial and religious hate is proof of that.

Most people, but far from all, could not give a fuck about anyone else outside of their circle, their focus is on their own lives. Acceptance of what is but wants very little to do with what is going on. These are the majority. The media attempts to sway these people both ways yes.

The two extremes will always exist, the media will never corrupt these sides. They won't ever be converted because they are rooted by hate and grudges toward their opposite view.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Neither side is going anywhere anytime soon.

Fuelled but people still hold those views, regardless of the media. You are giving the media too much credit when it comes to how people settle on how they feel about something.

A eutopia where everyone accepts everyone is barely even a pipe dream, hate and grudges run far too deep to go away in even a couple of generations. Racial and religious hate is proof of that.

The two extremes will always exist, the media will never corrupt these sides. They won't ever be converted because they are rooted by hate and grudges toward their opposite view."

On the contrary, I think you underestimate the power of the media's influence.

Most - emphasis on most, not all - people don't have time to educate themselves on fringe issues and therefore rely on media coverage to inform them. As you said, their focus is on their own lives. Therefore, if media coverage is mostly negative they will form negative perceptions.

I think the majority of people in modern society aren't bigoted or prejudice towards others either. Yes there are those who are raised to be prejudice towards a certain group(s), but there are also many people raised in those environments who later have those beliefs challenged and reassess their views.

The digital world is seldom a reflection of the real one.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Personally I don't give a flying fuck what narrow minded, shallow, Dickensian thinking, bigots think or say about me.

Those that matter to me know and support me."

Damn girl, your hair is amazing. You're beautiful!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Personally I don't give a flying fuck what narrow minded, shallow, Dickensian thinking, bigots think or say about me.

Those that matter to me know and support me.

Damn girl, your hair is amazing. You're beautiful!

Thank you x

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"DaisyRaine, I like your outlook. I agree, it's about mutual respect and understanding.

Yes, a helpful response of which I,d not considered it all. So good to get a reasoned reply rather than just attack which only results in people sticking to their guns even if wrong.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't watch mainstream media or buy newspapers, so I don't read or engage in all the scapegoating and negative anti anyone "different'to their narrow right wing view of the world. I live my own life my own way and believe everyone should be allowed to do the same without publicly bullying them.

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By *ssex_tomMan over a year ago

Chelmsford

What are they doing about the prisons?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What are they doing about the prisons?"

That's in another thread, so it can stay there.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Neither side is going anywhere anytime soon.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What are they doing about the prisons?"

There are already exhaustive guidelines in place that you can search for and read up on and everything is decided on a case-by-case basis regardless of whether or not someone has a GRC. Either way, a rapist generally won't be placed in gen pop. A cisgender female rapist is as much of a threat to other women as a transgender rapist. You know what almost everyone has, regardless of gender? Two fists. And those two fists are a lot more dangerous than a fleshy stick that only gives the impression of being hard because of blood flow. Should we house everyone with...fists in a separate prison..?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"And when did it become a movement whatever the fuck that means"

I think they are recruiting. Like when the Gay people recruit Straights to become gay......

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What are they doing about the prisons?

There's a thread elsewhere on the prison topic, therefore I do not believe it is appropriate to introduce that into this thread.

Some people like to stir up controversy.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The pronoun issue is far too difficult for anyone to follow. I mean it's not as though people ever change their names via marriage or anything. People still always use their unmarried name.

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By *isfits behaving badlyCouple over a year ago

Coventry

It's only a war if you make it a war. And the media sure seem to be doing that. Stirring up a very specific, complex and nuanced situation and turning into a blanket argument to beat trans people with and stir division. I think that's what a lot of this is about, division and polarisation. Get people drifted away in the tide of the headlines and not everyone is able to land on the dry land of relativity, proportionality and common sense. I think these nuanced situations ask very difficult questions. But these should be very difficult questions about very specific circumstances as with the Isla Bryson case (which personally on the balanced of things I totally understand the Scottish government's judgement). The world doesn't always sort out into neat boxes. However we shouldn't let it detract from the principle of trans women being women or people's freedom to be themselves. We shouldn't let very specific nuanced circumstances be used as a wider gotcha by the voices of hate. We should be smarter than that and that all sides see the world isn't black and white.

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By *onlywishiMan over a year ago

Newcastle

I’m an older generation guy so this is all new as I haven’t come into contact with the trans community?

I don’t have any problems with people living their life as they want and need to so that they feel happy in their own body ?

This story has brought to the attention not trans life but the lengths ( if indeed as his ex says ) is a way for him to have an easy time in prison!! The fact that as a guy he sexually abused at least 2 women then while awaiting his sentence wanted to transition ( if that’s the right wording ?) I find it wrong that they have been put in an environment that they could do it again?

I hope I haven’t offended anyone

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By *host63Man over a year ago

Bedfont Feltham

Can't say I care one way or another you can identify yourself how you wish as Kong as it dosent interfere with my well being

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The pronoun issue is far too difficult for anyone to follow. I mean it's not as though people ever change their names via marriage or anything. People still always use their unmarried name. "

Not really, if someone tells you what pronouns they use, use them. If you mis-pronoun someone and they correct you, use the one they have provided.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What are they doing about the prisons?

There's a thread elsewhere on the prison topic, therefore I do not believe it is appropriate to introduce that into this thread.

Some people like to stir up controversy. "

I purposely choose to ignore certain peoples posts and threads

They fish for confrontation and I end up with the popo putting me on the naughty step

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I’m an older generation guy so this is all new as I haven’t come into contact with the trans community?

I don’t have any problems with people living their life as they want and need to so that they feel happy in their own body ?

I hope I haven’t offended anyone "

Please post that in the other thread.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The pronoun issue is far too difficult for anyone to follow. I mean it's not as though people ever change their names via marriage or anything. People still always use their unmarried name.

Not really, if someone tells you what pronouns they use, use them. If you mis-pronoun someone and they correct you, use the one they have provided.

Agree.

My example was sarcasm.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The pronoun issue is far too difficult for anyone to follow. I mean it's not as though people ever change their names via marriage or anything. People still always use their unmarried name.

Not really, if someone tells you what pronouns they use, use them. If you mis-pronoun someone and they correct you, use the one they have provided.

Agree.

My example was sarcasm.

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By *onlywishiMan over a year ago

Newcastle

[Removed by poster at 31/01/23 13:19:44]

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By *onlywishiMan over a year ago

Newcastle

"I’m an older generation guy so this is all new as I haven’t come into contact with the trans community?

I don’t have any problems with people living their life as they want and need to so that they feel happy in their own body ?

I hope I haven’t offended anyone

Please post that in the other thread. "

What thread is that please ??

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I’m an older generation guy so this is all new as I haven’t come into contact with the trans community?

I don’t have any problems with people living their life as they want and need to so that they feel happy in their own body ?

I hope I haven’t offended anyone

Please post that in the other thread.

What thread is that please ?? "

In the Politics forum.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I’m an older generation guy so this is all new as I haven’t come into contact with the trans community?

I don’t have any problems with people living their life as they want and need to so that they feel happy in their own body ?

I hope I haven’t offended anyone

Please post that in the other thread.

What thread is that please ??

In the Politics forum.

TG woman being moved .....

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The pronoun issue is far too difficult for anyone to follow. I mean it's not as though people ever change their names via marriage or anything. People still always use their unmarried name. "

That did make me giggle ...rather a clever way to put it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"DaisyRaine, I like your outlook. I agree, it's about mutual respect and understanding.

Yes, a helpful response of which I,d not considered it all. So good to get a reasoned reply rather than just attack which only results in people sticking to their guns even if wrong."

Exactly this...like I said we have two ears and one mouth for a reason. Lashing out only makes people close down and think 'see I told you they were 'deleted expletive'

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What are they doing about the prisons?

There's a thread elsewhere on the prison topic, therefore I do not believe it is appropriate to introduce that into this thread.

Some people like to stir up controversy. "

Ah, apologies. I didn't realise. Think that particular forum user just likes to stir the pot as much as possible. Clearly needs a new hobby

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I’m an older generation guy so this is all new as I haven’t come into contact with the trans community?

I don’t have any problems with people living their life as they want and need to so that they feel happy in their own body ?

I hope I haven’t offended anyone "

There is plenty of good information in this thread if you care to read it

As others have mentioned, the Isla Bryson case really is a separate topic. There are so many more positive things to talk about with regards to trans people, but sadly they don't make the headlines because they don't stir up the things that sell the most in the media: fear and controversy.

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By *onlywishiMan over a year ago

Newcastle

Thanks guys like has been said you all have posted good info for a behind the times guy and pointed me in the right direction

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It’s not a war, it’s not a movement , but I won’t be silenced or hid away, I will exist regardless of anyone else’s views to the contrary. I am me

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By *bi HaiveMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Cheeseville, Somerset

"Elaborate on 'bad press'...?"

Has the OP been back to elaborate yet?

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By *ssex_tomMan over a year ago

Chelmsford

The Scottish Prime Minister made some quite scathing comments about people's concerns last week.

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By *aitonelMan over a year ago

Travelling

1 2 3 4

I declare

A trans war

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS over a year ago

Stockport

"What is the latest on the toilet issue.. ?"

Toilet tissue? Some people like quilted, some people are okay with ordinary two ply. Thankfully the days of Izal ended long ago...

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By *ssex_tomMan over a year ago

Chelmsford

And the Scottish Prime Minister?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"And the Scottish Prime Minister?"

It's all in the thread in the Politics forum, no need to introduce it into this thread as well

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By *ssex_tomMan over a year ago

Chelmsford

The Scottish Prime Minister alienated a lot of people with her speech.

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By *uddy laneMan over a year ago

dudley

"Are we seeing the end of the transition gender movement with all the bad press going on? "

I just woke up,,, which side am I on.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I’m an older generation guy so this is all new as I haven’t come into contact with the trans community?

I don’t have any problems with people living their life as they want and need to so that they feel happy in their own body ?

I hope I haven’t offended anyone

There is plenty of good information in this thread if you care to read it

Not too many headlines today mentioned "trans" reporting the murder of 16 year old Brianna Ghey. Yet the same press had it front and centre when it was the Isla Bryson case..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I’m an older generation guy so this is all new as I haven’t come into contact with the trans community?

I don’t have any problems with people living their life as they want and need to so that they feel happy in their own body ?

I hope I haven’t offended anyone

There is plenty of good information in this thread if you care to read it

Not too many headlines today mentioned "trans" reporting the murder of 16 year old Brianna Ghey. Yet the same press had it front and centre when it was the Isla Bryson case.."

Do you think the murder of a teenage girl is the same as the case of a rapist?

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By *lex.and.SexCouple over a year ago

Bedale

I think the worst sides of the debate are leading it, and until now the press had taken a side they thought would be the most profitable and gave huge megaphones to people within the movement who frankly make the entire thing seem like a grouping of some of the worst kinds of people imaginable, which the vast majority are not.

Something very odd is going on, I would concur with OP that for some reason the press (outside of the extreme left wing of the press) seems to be turning the ship around and running stories that are tonally polar opposites of a year or two ago.

The motive, as always, will be profit and control

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I’m an older generation guy so this is all new as I haven’t come into contact with the trans community?

I don’t have any problems with people living their life as they want and need to so that they feel happy in their own body ?

I hope I haven’t offended anyone

There is plenty of good information in this thread if you care to read it

Not too many headlines today mentioned "trans" reporting the murder of 16 year old Brianna Ghey. Yet the same press had it front and centre when it was the Isla Bryson case..

Do you think the murder of a teenage girl is the same as the case of a rapist? "

No and I never said it was

I'm talking about the media's representation of trans people in general

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

When it comes to equality and people's rights to being themselves, there's only 1 right answer.

Trying to stifle rights, is often tried by repressive bigotss. Most people have greater empathy for others and we should be thankful that we are living in an era where our rights and freedoms are most valued as an ideology for well-being

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By *ssex_tomMan over a year ago

Chelmsford

There is some sort of new video game out called Hogwarts...

Is in banned or unfashionable to play it ?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

From my own personal experience most people really don't care and the only comment I've had using the women's toilets is 'where did you get that handbag?'

I'm lucky in that I have had nothing but love and support from everyone including a friend who is highly religious. Others I know are not so lucky and have had family members abandon/otracize them.

I don't like vocal flag wavers saying what I should think/believe etc and I don't like others telling the world Trans people are some kind of threat to civilisation as we know it.

I don't get into arguments as who is right/wrong on the internet as it never gets anywhere and ends up in who can throw the most shade.

This is all just off the top of my head early in the morning so hope it makes some kind of sense!

Sadly 'Transgirl goes to shops and buys crisps...nothing happened' doesn't sell many papers.

LGBTQ+ acceptance etc has come a long way and yes it has been a bumpy road. Both sides should IMO do more listening than shouting which is why you have two ears and one mouth.

God that was a ramble wasn't it ! Sorry!

I don't have all /many answers as I can only speak for myself and my experience but feel free to ask me anything and if I have any thoughts on it I will answer.

^^^I love this

And I know without taking a census that your perspective is in the majority.

Sadly, as you say, the louder shouty voices drown out the wiser words and sentiments.

I hope the agitators on both sides will be filtered out by more who feel and think in these ways and proper communication can begin to find traction.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Non-binary people do not ascribe to a gender binary and therefore do not use gendered pronouns."

The issue here is that there are no definitive markers for gender expression -- for example, you can have a woman who fixes engines or a man who collects dolls; they're still women and men regardless of their behaviours.

You can also meet similarly nonconforming people who do consider themselves nonbinary -- this makes the concept an arbitrary idea based on feelings, rather than an objective fact.

So, no rules and a lack of conventions and a "you are when you say you are" ideology, well, it makes it all very suspect.

What you're left with is a personal feelings about your own identity -- and it's fine to express yourself freely.

That is, until you start demanding changes to language or society to accommodate your very fringe idea.

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By *ssex_tomMan over a year ago

Chelmsford

The issue is about letting people live there lives in peace. And yes there are morons on both sides stirring shit but in the middle just a lot of folk who want to be left in left in peace to live in peace

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"I think that it’s remarkably myopic to see one news story and tar a whole minority as a result of one. But then that reaction isn’t a new thing and the press love to stir up ‘us and them’ sentiments.

Understanding and education is the best tool against ignorance "

And willingness by society to play pretend of course.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

That Dylan mulvaney annoys the fuck out of me,I couldn't care less if he want to change sex,he can become a lobster as far as I'm concerned,he's just annoying

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By *nkyCplCouple over a year ago

Northampton

"That Dylan mulvaney annoys the fuck out of me,I couldn't care less if he want to change sex,he can become a lobster as far as I'm concerned,he's just annoying "

Is just someone playing a character imo. Cringey as fuckkkkk.

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By *izzy.miss.lizzyCouple over a year ago

Pembrokeshire

I don't have trans feelings myself, just general body dysmorphia, but I have a few friends in my local area who are trans and I do listen to their points of view as best as I can. I'm not feeling its a war, more strong debate maybe?

but there are folk on all sides who are getting too angry about various areas of it, seems to me it can be a pretty complex matter and therefore something of a steep learning curve and some need more patience, some need to try harder to be less fixed in their judgements.

its a shame it has to get to slanging match status to make a point to be fairly heard, whatever the situation

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don't have trans feelings myself, just general body dysmorphia, but I have a few friends in my local area who are trans and I do listen to their points of view as best as I can. I'm not feeling its a war, more strong debate maybe?

its a shame it has to get to slanging match status to make a point to be fairly heard, whatever the situation"

What Riley gaines had to endure was ridiculous and criminal

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"That Dylan mulvaney annoys the fuck out of me,I couldn't care less if he want to change sex,he can become a lobster as far as I'm concerned,he's just annoying "

*She, please.

Even if you think she's a pain in the arse.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Understanding and education is the best tool against ignorance

And willingness by society to play pretend of course."

Pretend?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"That Dylan mulvaney annoys the fuck out of me,I couldn't care less if he want to change sex,he can become a lobster as far as I'm concerned,he's just annoying

*She, please.

Even if you think she's a pain in the arse.

If I had time to debate this with you I would,but however I haven't,so let's just agree to disagree on this one,have a lovely day

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

"That Dylan mulvaney annoys the fuck out of me,I couldn't care less if he want to change sex,he can become a lobster as far as I'm concerned,he's just annoying

*She, please.

Even if you think she's a pain in the arse.

If I had time to debate this with you I would,but however I haven't,so let's just agree to disagree on this one,have a lovely day "

Deliberately mis-gendering and refusing to apologise?

Whst do you gain from that other than creating a very clear impression of being Deliberately transphobic?

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By *affeine DuskMan over a year ago

Caerphilly

"The issue is about letting people live there lives in peace. And yes there are morons on both sides stirring shit but in the middle just a lot of folk who want to be left in left in peace to live in peace "

...damn, Tom. I'll give you a 'This

' for this.

People getting so angry and annoyed about other people's lives is a real sign of an unwell mind.

It's unsettling how common it is.

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By *ea monkeyMan over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"That Dylan mulvaney annoys the fuck out of me,I couldn't care less if he want to change sex,he can become a lobster as far as I'm concerned,he's just annoying

*She, please.

Even if you think she's a pain in the arse.

If I had time to debate this with you I would,but however I haven't,so let's just agree to disagree on this one,have a lovely day "

There’s nothing to debate. You’re deliberately misgendering someone because you dislike them.

Shall I start calling you her, just because I dislike your post?

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By *ea monkeyMan over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

...damn, Tom. I'll give you a 'This

' for this.

People getting so angry and annoyed about other people's lives is a real sign of an unwell mind.

It's unsettling how common it is."

I think that that’s a very reductive statement. Some people are idealists and want the world to be better. Basic respect for people and wanting that isn’t being unwell

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By *wisted999Man over a year ago

North Bucks

"There is some sort of new video game out called Hogwarts...

Is in banned or unfashionable to play it ?"

It’s hugely successful and quite good to be honest Tom.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"That Dylan mulvaney annoys the fuck out of me,I couldn't care less if he want to change sex,he can become a lobster as far as I'm concerned,he's just annoying

*She, please.

Even if you think she's a pain in the arse.

If I had time to debate this with you I would,but however I haven't,so let's just agree to disagree on this one,have a lovely day

There’s nothing to debate. You’re deliberately misgendering someone because you dislike them.

Shall I start calling you her, just because I dislike your post? "

This is absolutely bang on the nose. Don't worry, I'll let you get back to your Matt Walsh YouTube binge

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By *affeine DuskMan over a year ago

Caerphilly

...damn, Tom. I'll give you a 'This

' for this.

People getting so angry and annoyed about other people's lives is a real sign of an unwell mind.

It's unsettling how common it is.

I think that that’s a very reductive statement. Some people are idealists and want the world to be better. Basic respect for people and wanting that isn’t being unwell"

Sure.

But the secret joy that people get in arguing online, to the point of being unknowingly addicted to it and seeking it out in comments sections?

That is.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

People have the right to do whatever the hell they want to with their own bodies, and I will always try to treat any individual with mutual respect and compassion.

However, there is a line and I will under no circumstances have my speech mandated by anyone, whether it’s found disrespectful or not. Offensive is subjective. Therefore using somebodies pronouns is a choice I make, not them. That is a seriously, seriously slippery slope.

I also think it’s disgusting that this is being pushed onto younger and younger people. If a child isn’t seen to be responsible enough to drink, drive, get tattoos etc before a certain age, then they damn sure shouldn’t be allowed to make decisions about life changing surgeries and medication before they are considered an adult.

Badger

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There is some sort of new video game out called Hogwarts...

Is in banned or unfashionable to play it ?

It’s hugely successful and quite good to be honest Tom. "

It's AMAZING! Best game I've ever played.

There is a very small fringe of activists who are boycotting because of some terfy things JK Rowling said, and I can't speak for the wider community, but I for one love Hogwarts Legacy.

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By *he AmbassadorMan over a year ago

IRLANDA. / Prague. / Cil Dara

There was a war over this,

, i didnt realize it got that bad.

Surely this an easy fix, if everyone just lived their own best life and left others to themselves there would only be tiny issues to deal with here,

It definitely didnt help when the president of the USA turned on Trans folk, the Cult followed suit and are still at it 7 years on.

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By *nkyCplCouple over a year ago

Northampton

But the secret joy that people get in arguing online, to the point of being unknowingly addicted to it and seeking it out in comments sections?

That is.

Described me to a T ha ha

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By *nkyCplCouple over a year ago

Northampton

"People have the right to do whatever the hell they want to with their own bodies, and I will always try to treat any individual with mutual respect and compassion.

Badger"

Nailed it and couldn’t agree more.

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By *wisted999Man over a year ago

North Bucks

"There is some sort of new video game out called Hogwarts...

Is in banned or unfashionable to play it ?

It’s hugely successful and quite good to be honest Tom.

It's AMAZING! Best game I've ever played.

There is a very small fringe of activists who are boycotting because of some terfy things JK Rowling said, and I can't speak for the wider community, but I for one love Hogwarts Legacy."

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

"People have the right to do whatever the hell they want to with their own bodies, and I will always try to treat any individual with mutual respect and compassion.

Badger"

Can I ask what it brings to your life by making a conscious decision to ignore pronouns? What does it achieve fir you?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"People have the right to do whatever the hell they want to with their own bodies, and I will always try to treat any individual with mutual respect and compassion.

Badger

Nailed it and couldn’t agree more."

I don't think that speech should be legally mandated.

However, I just think it's a bit of a dick move to not address people the way they want to be addressed.

Would be similar if you refused to use someone's preferred name.

Remember, yes you have extreme activists on both sides, but in the middle you have the majority of trans people who just want acceptance and understanding.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

Understanding and education is the best tool against ignorance

And willingness by society to play pretend of course.

Pretend?"

Yes pretend, to pretend that men are women. Or that a man should be called she just because he wants that.

This argument won't go away because the majority won't play pretend no how much some want it to. Pile on but it's how it is.

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By *anddXXXCouple over a year ago

London

"The pronoun issue is far too difficult for anyone to follow. I mean it's not as though people ever change their names via marriage or anything. People still always use their unmarried name.

That did make me giggle ...rather a clever way to put it. "

---------------------

Thats changing a name that is given being compared to a language that follows rules within, try teaching a toddler English without having defining rules to follow. it's like me speaking Spanish and never knowing how to form the tense correctly so speaking in the present tense and using after, tomorrow, before etc to try and make it sense. Half the languages in the world have words that are either masculine or feminine and make no sense if you get it wrong. The chicken for dinner was a Pollo but he might have not of been a male so I'll call him/her a Polla. How are you changing their pronouns and feminine words? Or is this only a US and English language fad?

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

All those 'be kind' is just a dressed up please go along with the pretence.

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By *nkyCplCouple over a year ago

Northampton

I don't think that speech should be legally mandated.

However, I just think it's a bit of a dick move to not address people the way they want to be addressed.

Would be similar if you refused to use someone's preferred name.

Remember, yes you have extreme activists on both sides, but in the middle you have the majority of trans people who just want acceptance and understanding."

I sort of agree. My mantra is “Don’t be a dick” (have it tattooed), but if someone doesn’t agree with gender ideology they shouldn’t be mandated to use preferred pronouns. Personally don’t see why they wouldn’t, but that’s on them. If they didn’t want to sue them they should just not interact/engage.

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

"All those 'be kind' is just a dressed up please go along with the pretence."

Or, maybe you know it's just about being kind and supporting a marginalised abd vulnerable section of society.

Rather than mocking them as 'pretend'

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

"The pronoun issue is far too difficult for anyone to follow. I mean it's not as though people ever change their names via marriage or anything. People still always use their unmarried name.

That did make me giggle ...rather a clever way to put it.

---------------------

I hear you the struggle when a woman marries and changes from Miss to Mrs is near insurmountable.

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By *anddXXXCouple over a year ago

London

"All those 'be kind' is just a dressed up please go along with the pretence.

Or, maybe you know it's just about being kind and supporting a marginalised abd vulnerable section of society.

Rather than mocking them as 'pretend'"

---------------------

I was walking along the canal the otherday and seen a Fisherthem.

If you don't wanna be mocked............

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By *nkyCplCouple over a year ago

Northampton

"All those 'be kind' is just a dressed up please go along with the pretence.

Or, maybe you know it's just about being kind and supporting a marginalised abd vulnerable section of society.

Rather than mocking them as 'pretend'

---------------------

I was walking along the canal the otherday and seen a Fisherthem.

If you don't wanna be mocked............

I will outwardly mock anyone that calls themselves a fisherthem and is being serious.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I don't think that speech should be legally mandated.

However, I just think it's a bit of a dick move to not address people the way they want to be addressed.

Would be similar if you refused to use someone's preferred name.

Remember, yes you have extreme activists on both sides, but in the middle you have the majority of trans people who just want acceptance and understanding.

This is the problem, this whole thing has become so politicised because of the extremists on both sides, which are the only people the press reports on.

This isn't an "ideology" it's just a bunch of people who don't feel on the inside the way they look on the outside, and they'd like some acceptance and understanding of this.

Being a dick should not be a crime, and it's sad that people are getting arrested for saying things on Twitter... It's just, you're a dick. If you misgender someone intentionally, this is a dick move. And I'd call out anyone who was being a dick, for whatever reason. That doesn't mean I think you should be mandated to not be a dick.

I watched a movie once and I can't remember what it was, but the quote was "you have to accept people's right to be arseholes". Which I do.

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By *nkyCplCouple over a year ago

Northampton

"This is the problem, this whole thing has become so politicised because of the extremists on both sides, which are the only people the press reports on.

This isn't an "ideology" it's just a bunch of people who don't feel on the inside the way they look on the outside, and they'd like some acceptance and understanding of this.

I watched a movie once and I can't remember what it was, but the quote was "you have to accept people's right to be arseholes". Which I do."

I think we agree on most (not all) things tbh and share a very similar outlook to life. Certainly have an interesting chat in a pub chick.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Trans-genders, robots in disguise.

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By *ea monkeyMan over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

...damn, Tom. I'll give you a 'This

' for this.

People getting so angry and annoyed about other people's lives is a real sign of an unwell mind.

It's unsettling how common it is.

I think that that’s a very reductive statement. Some people are idealists and want the world to be better. Basic respect for people and wanting that isn’t being unwell

Sure.

But the secret joy that people get in arguing online, to the point of being unknowingly addicted to it and seeking it out in comments sections?

That is.

Oh hell yeah!

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By *iltsTSgirlTV/TS over a year ago

chichester

Let me know when the actual fighting starts , all I see is imbeciles gobbling off online mostly from both sides .

Meantime I am just out here living life carefree / drama free like most general public are

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By *nkyCplCouple over a year ago

Northampton

[Removed by poster at 12/04/23 10:16:48]

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By *nkyCplCouple over a year ago

Northampton

"all I see is imbeciles gobbling off"

Freudian slip?

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By *cing3894Man over a year ago

Billingham

I think eventually we will end up back like the Romans, open sexualities, orgies and feminine men were thought of no differently than masculine ones the rule seemed to be as long as you had an orgasm does it really matter who caused it?

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By *iltsTSgirlTV/TS over a year ago

chichester

"all I see is imbeciles gobbling off

Freudian slip?

Auto correct is a thing alas. Downside of fab use on mobile. All this sex talk teaches siri bad things when typing fast

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By *anddXXXCouple over a year ago

London

"The pronoun issue is far too difficult for anyone to follow. I mean it's not as though people ever change their names via marriage or anything. People still always use their unmarried name.

That did make me giggle ...rather a clever way to put it.

---------------------

I hear you the struggle when a woman marries and changes from Miss to Mrs is near insurmountable."

Not really a struggle, she is either going to be one or another, has to be, both feminine words to address a woman, looking for a wedding ring or asking is it Miss or Mrs? normally helps, as you are only going to need to know which it is in a professional matter. If you meet someone, socially, I've never addresses them as Mrs or Miss, I tend to use their first name.

On the otherhand you are introduced to a woman who uses pronouns, without being told she does, how do you know ? How do you know which ones? It's a guess, "Hello, Mrs or Miss, I don't know whether you are straight, Bi, Gay, Transgender but on the off chance that you might be one of the last three, would you like me to address you by him/her/they/them ? or just use your name.

Yep, you are right, the Mrs or Miss thing on someones passport or driving license is exactly the same as talking to someone face to face.

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By *hetalkingstoveMan over a year ago

London

When you meet someone, you can ask their name, that's obviously fine.

And if you assume they're a woman, and then refer to them as "she" in front of them, it's also fine just to say "sorry, is 'she' correct?"

And then you know.

It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're pretending.

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By *wisted999Man over a year ago

North Bucks

"Let me know when the actual fighting starts , all I see is imbeciles gobbling off online mostly from both sides .

Meantime I am just out here living life carefree / drama free like most general public are

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By *lym4realCouple over a year ago

plymouth

And whilst we are encouraged to blame/hate or have a faux war with ( insert name or names here) those who control the media .........and meanwhile ...sad that it still works so well ??

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By *exyBums22Couple over a year ago

Milton Keynes

It's just people being angry at issues they don't understand. It's a problem as old as humankind.

Sadly it's not going anywhere.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Are we seeing the end of the transition gender movement with all the bad press going on? "

I think the best part of that it is exposing the hate and hypocrisy of a minority and people ask why we still need pride? Because you don't get beat up for being straight mate.

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By *arberrys-EventsTV/TS over a year ago

Great Yarmouth

Its live and let live

I for one, do not take any notice of the news.....its all scaremongering.

I just get on with being me.

XXX

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By *anddXXXCouple over a year ago

London

When you meet someone, you can ask their name, that's obviously fine.

And if you assume they're a woman, and then refer to them as "she" in front of them, it's also fine just to say "sorry, is 'she' correct?"

And then you know.

It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're pretending. "

As complicated as I pretend ? So I meet a woman, ask her name, Thanks for allowing that. Then assess is this a man or a woman, not assume, for every single person I meet from now till doomsday. Then when I use the word to describe what I assumed, I have to follow that up with "She/He is that correct?" for every person I ever meet.

And I'm the one pretending it's complicated. I might as well do a Risk Assessment to go with it.

I respect everyones right to live their life how they wish but that goes both ways. But as long as what i say is not rude or vindictive, I will speak the language how I was taught it and not going to be corrected to someone elses version just because they demand how I should address them. Calling a man dressed as a woman, he, isn't something I am going to lose sleep over. I'm not going to start calling someone a fisherthem because Sam Smith does, or a policethem because someone gets upset with me calling them a policeman, if it offends them, it says more about him/her/them than me . If that upsets you, him or any pronoun, tough, your problem, not mine.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

When you meet someone, you can ask their name, that's obviously fine.

And if you assume they're a woman, and then refer to them as "she" in front of them, it's also fine just to say "sorry, is 'she' correct?"

And then you know.

It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're pretending.

And I'm the one pretending it's complicated. I might as well do a Risk Assessment to go with it.

Every teacher at school were wrong, especially the biology teacher

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

When you meet someone, you can ask their name, that's obviously fine.

And if you assume they're a woman, and then refer to them as "she" in front of them, it's also fine just to say "sorry, is 'she' correct?"

And then you know.

It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're pretending.

And I'm the one pretending it's complicated. I might as well do a Risk Assessment to go with it.

I mean we've been calling them police officers fir how many decades now...

If it causes you this much stress maybe call everyone 'they' as its neutral?

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By *nkyCplCouple over a year ago

Northampton

I mean we've been calling them police officers fir how many decades now...

If it causes you this much stress maybe call everyone 'they' as its neutral?"

I’m not a “they” thanks…

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By *exyBums22Couple over a year ago

Milton Keynes

When you meet someone, you can ask their name, that's obviously fine.

And if you assume they're a woman, and then refer to them as "she" in front of them, it's also fine just to say "sorry, is 'she' correct?"

And then you know.

It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're pretending.

And I'm the one pretending it's complicated. I might as well do a Risk Assessment to go with it.

Aw poor baby. It's hard changing with the times.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I mean we've been calling them police officers fir how many decades now...

If it causes you this much stress maybe call everyone 'they' as its neutral?

I’m not a “they” thanks…"

I'm not a 'they' either,thanks

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

I mean we've been calling them police officers fir how many decades now...

If it causes you this much stress maybe call everyone 'they' as its neutral?

I’m not a “they” thanks…

I'm not a 'they' either,thanks"

I'm 1000% certain that both of yiu will have been referred to as "they" with zero insult intended or given.

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By *nkyCplCouple over a year ago

Northampton

I mean we've been calling them police officers fir how many decades now...

If it causes you this much stress maybe call everyone 'they' as its neutral?

I’m not a “they” thanks…

I'm not a 'they' either,thanks

I'm 1000% certain that both of yiu will have been referred to as "they" with zero insult intended or given.

I’m 100000000% certain I have and couldn’t care less.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I mean we've been calling them police officers fir how many decades now...

If it causes you this much stress maybe call everyone 'they' as its neutral?

I’m not a “they” thanks…

I'm not a 'they' either,thanks

I'm 1000% certain that both of yiu will have been referred to as "they" with zero insult intended or given.

I don't want to be called 'they' I'm one man,he /him will do nicely,respect My pronouns,just like you want me to respect others

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By *exyBums22Couple over a year ago

Milton Keynes

Like it has been said previously in the thread, it's not illegal to be a dick.

If people don't have the common decency to accommodate people on how they would like to be addressed then they are a dick. Pretty simple.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

When you meet someone, you can ask their name, that's obviously fine.

And if you assume they're a woman, and then refer to them as "she" in front of them, it's also fine just to say "sorry, is 'she' correct?"

And then you know.

It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're pretending.

And I'm the one pretending it's complicated. I might as well do a Risk Assessment to go with it.

Just to clarify, if we met at a club and you addressed me as "he" (even though it's blatently obvious I'm presenting female) and I politely asked you to address me as "she", you would decline my request?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

When you meet someone, you can ask their name, that's obviously fine.

And if you assume they're a woman, and then refer to them as "she" in front of them, it's also fine just to say "sorry, is 'she' correct?"

And then you know.

It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're pretending.

And I'm the one pretending it's complicated. I might as well do a Risk Assessment to go with it.

That would be an odd request because a pronoun is used as a reference, not a form of address. I would call you madman to your face.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

When you meet someone, you can ask their name, that's obviously fine.

And if you assume they're a woman, and then refer to them as "she" in front of them, it's also fine just to say "sorry, is 'she' correct?"

And then you know.

It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're pretending.

And I'm the one pretending it's complicated. I might as well do a Risk Assessment to go with it.

That would be an odd request because a pronoun is used as a reference, not a form of address. I would call you madman to your face."

Bloody autocorrect - I meant "madam", not "madman". My apologies.

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By *reyToTheFairiesWoman over a year ago

Carlisle usually

Oof.

The block list grows ever longer.

I'll never understand why the idea of showing basic respect to other humans is so outrageously offensive to dickheads

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

When you meet someone, you can ask their name, that's obviously fine.

And if you assume they're a woman, and then refer to them as "she" in front of them, it's also fine just to say "sorry, is 'she' correct?"

And then you know.

It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're pretending.

And I'm the one pretending it's complicated. I might as well do a Risk Assessment to go with it.

That would be an odd request because a pronoun is used as a reference, not a form of address. I would call you madman to your face.

Bloody autocorrect - I meant "madam", not "madman". My apologies."

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By *icolerobbieCouple over a year ago

walsall

I’m pretty sure most transgender people would prefer to be addressed as they present. I’m not big on using they as it sounds like bad grammar when used in the singular. I would rather use he or she. If a male was presenting as a female what’s so bad about using her? I think they & them doesn’t sound right at all.

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By *anddXXXCouple over a year ago

London

or just use your name

---------------------------

-----------------------

You obviously didn't bother to read my whole post, so I've deleted the bits not relevant and left the relevant bit.

So to Clarify.........I would call you Michaela. As that's what I tend to do with people when meeting socially, I use the name they give me when we are introduced. I wouldn't say, "he said" or "she said" and definitely not "they said" (plural not singular). But, "Michaela said"

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By *ora the explorerWoman over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

...damn, Tom. I'll give you a 'This

' for this.

People getting so angry and annoyed about other people's lives is a real sign of an unwell mind.

It's unsettling how common it is."

Totally agree with this. Especially on here. I’ve always thought this.

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By *heRazorsEdgeMan over a year ago

Wales/ All over UK

When you meet someone, you can ask their name, that's obviously fine.

And if you assume they're a woman, and then refer to them as "she" in front of them, it's also fine just to say "sorry, is 'she' correct?"

And then you know.

It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're pretending.

And I'm the one pretending it's complicated. I might as well do a Risk Assessment to go with it.

The simple answer is to address someone as they present until they point out to you that they want to be addressed otherwise. If you still continue to address them other than how they wish, you’re then being a cunt.

People aren’t expecting you to ask how they wish to be addressed before any other interaction, they just wish to be addressed how they identify WHEN POINTED OUT TO YOU!

It’s really not difficult

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By *ora the explorerWoman over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

When you meet someone, you can ask their name, that's obviously fine.

And if you assume they're a woman, and then refer to them as "she" in front of them, it's also fine just to say "sorry, is 'she' correct?"

And then you know.

It's not anywhere near as complicated as you're pretending.

And I'm the one pretending it's complicated. I might as well do a Risk Assessment to go with it.

People aren’t expecting you to ask how they wish to be addressed before any other interaction, they just wish to be addressed how they identify WHEN POINTED OUT TO YOU!

It’s really not difficult "

Exactly this. It really is quite simple.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Can I ask what it brings to your life by making a conscious decision to ignore pronouns? What does it achieve fir you?"

I don’t ignore them actually. A massive part of my work is in inclusions so believe it or not I’m actually pretty compassionate. I make an informed choice to use them based on dialogue and mutual respect with the individual, appropriate to the person, and it’s worked pretty well. It’s a case of trying my best, occasionally fucking up, and then aiming to do better, as with most of life.

That’s not the same as somebody I have never met making narcissistic demands of me, or worse still accusing me of being hateful because I haven’t managed to go out of my way to incorporate their subjective feelings. At it’s very worst asking institutions and even governments to introduce policy that compel speech is downright dangerous because of the precedence it sets. It is an absolute minefield for most people.

That being said… nobody has taken me up on using my preferred adjectives of ‘handsome’ and ‘brilliant’ when speaking to me yet

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By *nkyCplCouple over a year ago

Northampton

"At it’s very worst asking institutions and even governments to introduce policy that compel speech is downright dangerous because of the precedence it sets. It is an absolute minefield for most people."

This! How some people are blind to the dangers of compelled speech scares me tbh.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

"Fuck off Bartholemew. How dare you dictate how I refer to you. If you have a problem with that, it's your problem. You were Bartholemew at birth and as far as I am concerned you will always be a Bartholemew."

Who is the unreasonable one?

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By *heRazorsEdgeMan over a year ago

Wales/ All over UK

""Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

Who is the unreasonable one?

This right here

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

""Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

Who is the unreasonable one?

This right here

Yeah. Bartholemew is such a radical!

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

""Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

Who is the unreasonable one?

Too simplistic, you know & I know & everyone knows it's about mostly men wanting the world to pretend they are a different gender.

Your poor attempt to simplify & divert won't work any more than the "be kind" approach.

The majority simple won't have it as you cannot change gender.

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By *heRazorsEdgeMan over a year ago

Wales/ All over UK

""Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

Who is the unreasonable one?

Too simplistic, you know & I know & everyone knows it's about mostly men wanting the world to pretend they are a different gender.

Your poor attempt to simplify & divert won't work any more than the "be kind" approach.

The majority simple won't have it as you cannot change gender."

Found the bigot

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

""Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

Who is the unreasonable one?

In most cases, that would be met with ‘oh yes of course, sorry…. Bart it is’ because the majority of people are actually sane, and the internet tends to only show the extremes on either side

Now, in the interests of ‘balance’ allow me to flip it…

Hi, I’m Bartholomew, but I prefer to be called Bart.

I’m a social media influencer with a massive responsibility to offer objectivity to millions of young impressionable minds.

If you don’t call me Bart, you are being oppressive and I’m going to publicly accuse you of being racist/sexist/ageist/transphobic/insert appropriate ‘ist’ here, even though I don’t know you.

Meanwhile, I’m going to actively campaign to change law to mandate what you ‘have’ to say in order to protect my feelings, and have that backed up with punitive damages.

The unreasonable card can be played both ways. Kind of like Orwellian Uno.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 13/04/23 11:18:08]

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

""Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

Who is the unreasonable one?

In most cases, that would be met with ‘oh yes of course, sorry…. Bart it is’ because the majority of people are actually sane, and the internet tends to only show the extremes on either side

Now, in the interests of ‘balance’ allow me to flip it…

Hi, I’m Bartholomew, but I prefer to be called Bart.

I’m a social media influencer with a massive responsibility to offer objectivity to millions of young impressionable minds.

Meanwhile, I’m going to actively campaign to change law to mandate what you ‘have’ to say in order to protect my feelings, and have that backed up with punitive damages.

The unreasonable card can be played both ways. Kind of like Orwellian Uno."

Would you feel that someone who said: "However, there is a line and I will under no circumstances have my speech mandated by anyone, whether it’s found disrespectful or not. Offensive is subjective. Therefore using somebodies pronouns is a choice I make, not them. That is a seriously, seriously slippery slope." Is part of the sane majority?

Your comment about in most cases sane people would apologise seems to contradict your own words earlier in the thread

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By *ora the explorerWoman over a year ago

Paradise, Herts

""Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

Who is the unreasonable one?

Too simplistic, you know & I know & everyone knows it's about mostly men wanting the world to pretend they are a different gender.

Your poor attempt to simplify & divert won't work any more than the "be kind" approach.

The majority simple won't have it as you cannot change gender."

”won’t have it”. What does it matter to them?! I’ll never get on board with the extreme and call everyone they/them just in case I might offend but to deliberately refer to someone a different way when they’ve specifically said how they like to be referred to is just fucking obnoxious. People who have this attitude just make themselves look like arrogant idiots in my opinion.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

""Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

Who is the unreasonable one?

In most cases, that would be met with ‘oh yes of course, sorry…. Bart it is’ because the majority of people are actually sane, and the internet tends to only show the extremes on either side

Now, in the interests of ‘balance’ allow me to flip it…

Hi, I’m Bartholomew, but I prefer to be called Bart.

I’m a social media influencer with a massive responsibility to offer objectivity to millions of young impressionable minds.

Meanwhile, I’m going to actively campaign to change law to mandate what you ‘have’ to say in order to protect my feelings, and have that backed up with punitive damages.

The unreasonable card can be played both ways. Kind of like Orwellian Uno."

Of course, there are Trans influencers that have unreasonable expectations and cause more harm than good.

There are similar anti trans influencers in the same boat.

The example, granted very simplified, was aimed more at those who will deliberately and knowingly misgender after the preferred gender has been made known.

It's not going to change anyone's mind anyway so it was probably a wasted post.

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By *r_PinkMan over a year ago

london stratford

"Are we seeing the end of the transition gender movement with all the bad press going on? "

I doubt it

If anything, it will just become part of the us and them of life, ie some of US do not give a shit, live and let live, equal right and so on and so forth and then there will be THEMs, the haters, who think its wrong, you know the ones? they usually count WOKE as a bad word.

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By *itonthesideWoman over a year ago

Glasgow

""Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

Who is the unreasonable one?

In most cases, that would be met with ‘oh yes of course, sorry…. Bart it is’ because the majority of people are actually sane, and the internet tends to only show the extremes on either side

Now, in the interests of ‘balance’ allow me to flip it…

Hi, I’m Bartholomew, but I prefer to be called Bart.

I’m a social media influencer with a massive responsibility to offer objectivity to millions of young impressionable minds.

Meanwhile, I’m going to actively campaign to change law to mandate what you ‘have’ to say in order to protect my feelings, and have that backed up with punitive damages.

The unreasonable card can be played both ways. Kind of like Orwellian Uno."

Agreed there is unreasonable on all sides and everything far too polar. We could all do with a little live and let live.

To expand on the bart example. I guess some are also saying that they would like people who were born bartholomew and happy to continue to be bartholomew, to add a prefix original-bartholomew and bart to be now-bart.

Maybe a novel idea would be they could just pick their choice, no prefix required for anyone. And they only need to tell people about their historical names when their business requires it

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By *otSoPoshWoman over a year ago

In a ball gown because that's how we roll in N. Devon

Why do people get so het up about what other people want to do and how they live their lives?

Just chill... refer to people as they'd like to be referred to, or leave them alone. No need to be a dick about it.

Life is hard enough without adding to other people's misery.

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

""Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

Who is the unreasonable one?

Too simplistic, you know & I know & everyone knows it's about mostly men wanting the world to pretend they are a different gender.

Your poor attempt to simplify & divert won't work any more than the "be kind" approach.

The majority simple won't have it as you cannot change gender.

Exactly this. And its telling that whenever directly asked what deliberately misusing pronouns and deliberately misgendering people achieves for them the question goes unanswered. But you've hit the nail on the head, it's arrogant, it's obnoxious and to me it's bullying pure and simple

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By *etric5555Man over a year ago

BISHOP AUCKLAND

Trans say they only want inclusiveness then call themselves everything to make them not inclusively?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"There is a dawning realisation that any change to social norms brings unintended consequences."

But current social norms sometimes need challenging.

250 years ago social norms said enslaving another human being was ok

150 years ago social norms said denying women the vote was OK

50 years ago social norms said sending a man to prison for loving another man was ok.

Those social norms ... stinkers aint they?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Trans say they only want inclusiveness"

You could stop there

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Would you feel that someone who said: "However, there is a line and I will under no circumstances have my speech mandated by anyone, whether it’s found disrespectful or not. Offensive is subjective. Therefore using somebodies pronouns is a choice I make, not them. That is a seriously, seriously slippery slope." Is part of the sane majority?

Your comment about in most cases sane people would apologise seems to contradict your own words earlier in the thread"

I’ve been called many things so ‘insane’ isn’t that bad really, and again reinforces the point about offence being subjective. That’s the magic of it, it’s just an opinion

I don’t think it’s contradictory. My point is that the transaction and use of said pronouns (which I do try to accommodate and routinely fuck up) is between the participants. But that is my choice, nobody else’s.

There is a big big difference between saying you should/shouldn’t or can’t say something, and policy dictating that you ‘have’ to say something, which is where it’s ultimately leading (using Canada as an example).

It’s compelled speech, masquerading as ‘tolerance’ and I don’t buy it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

What I call someone to their face is their choice. How I refer to them in their absence is my choice. We all have choices.

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By *iltsTSgirlTV/TS over a year ago

chichester

"What I call someone to their face is their choice. How I refer to them in their absence is my choice. We all have choices. "

thats pretty common sense though isnt it .. out of sight out of mind .. I dont give two fucks what people refer to me as when I am not present , much like they probably wouldn't like how I refer to others sometimes behind closed doors

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"What I call someone to their face is their choice. How I refer to them in their absence is my choice. We all have choices.

Exactly, and I've made this point before - pronouns are not used directly to the person involved, only as a reference to that person.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

""Hi, Bartholemew? I'm John"

"Hello John, but please call me Bart, I really hate Bartholemew"

"Oh OK Bartholemew"

"Please, call me Bart"

Who is the unreasonable one?

Too simplistic, you know & I know & everyone knows it's about mostly men wanting the world to pretend they are a different gender.

Your poor attempt to simplify & divert won't work any more than the "be kind" approach.

The majority simple won't have it as you cannot change gender.

Found the bigot"

Bigot? Just someone who can't agree with you, someone who can't deny biological fact, someone who won't be brow beaten by people who will deny fact & just pretend.

Throw the names but you know under everything thing I,m right but you want me to pretend like yourself.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"Trans say they only want inclusiveness then call themselves everything to make them not inclusively?"

They are included, its everyone's world but they want everyone playing their game. It's like a dictatorship, we all deny fact to appease mostly men pretend they are women due to maybe fetishism or just a personality disorder.

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

"Trans say they only want inclusiveness then call themselves everything to make them not inclusively?

How on earth is it like a dictatorship?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Trans say they only want inclusiveness then call themselves everything to make them not inclusively?

Shocking to see this kind of hate speech get airtime in a forum like this when saying the same thing IRL will very likely land you in trouble with the police or your HR department if your company gets wind of it.

Where do you draw the line for people having mental disorders or fetishism simply because they're not heterosexual? I'm bi, I like pussy and dick and I don't care if someone's male female or trans if they're feminine enough for my taste, am I one of these "sick individuals" you're slurring about because your manhood is so fragile?

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

How is it possibly hate speech?

It's an honest opinion but obviously not yours. Grow up.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

"How is it possibly hate speech?

It's an honest opinion but obviously not yours. Grow up."

We still have free speech & this is an open forum.

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By *urreyfun38Couple over a year ago

croydon

"Trans say they only want inclusiveness then call themselves everything to make them not inclusively?

Used to be called Gender Dysmorphia.

But now we have people wanting facts to have feelings which they obviously can’t.

And there is now a whole new lecture circuit about it.

The problem that the trans community has is that it doesn’t debate well and have good arguments when faced with facts and reasoned questions.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"How is it possibly hate speech?

It's an honest opinion but obviously not yours. Grow up."

It's not.

It's only hate speech if it is done in a way themat is INTENDED to cause offence or is likely to incite violence.

Being ignorant as to whether office is caused is not in and if itself illegal.

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