FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Should fab change man/woman titles.
Should fab change man/woman titles.
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"I do find it hard to believe in 2023 tha fab still only has man/woman tv/ts as titles. A trans person male or female is not a transvesitie or trans sexual they are trans male / female And cis man and cis woman would be more inclusive aswell as non binoary. " A trans person is either male or female, just like a cis person. Adding non binary would be a good idea though. | |||
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"I do find it hard to believe in 2023 tha fab still only has man/woman tv/ts as titles. A trans person male or female is not a transvesitie or trans sexual they are trans male / female And cis man and cis woman would be more inclusive aswell as non binoary. " No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man" So you were assigned female at birth? | |||
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" No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man" Were you born male? If you were,then you are. XX | |||
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"It does keep being suggested, maybe it'll be in the new updates they're talking about." Ever since I've frequented the forums, I've lost count on how many posts I've senen for TV and TS to be separate. It's not happened yet. Fingers crossed one day. XX | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man So you were assigned female at birth?" Is someone who was female at birth then transitioned to male a man? Man is the default description for me. Cis would only be used in cases where it had to be established that they had not transitioned. I'm a woman. I don't have to say I'm a cis woman; whereas a trans woman would; as she's the one who has changed from the default. | |||
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"Is someone who was female at birth then transitioned to male a man? " Yes. They would be a man. If the options are only man or trans man, then man is an acceptable choice. If the options are cis man or trans man, then that makes it easier to filter out those who would take issue with it. | |||
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"I have a question about this. Why as a woman do I have to adapt to labels like cis woman? " you don't your a woman that's great leave others to there labels I don't pander to it either man woman end | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man So you were assigned female at birth? Is someone who was female at birth then transitioned to male a man? Man is the default description for me. Cis would only be used in cases where it had to be established that they had not transitioned. I'm a woman. I don't have to say I'm a cis woman; whereas a trans woman would; as she's the one who has changed from the default. " Or one could argue that trans women/men shouldn’t have to explain that they have transitioned - they’re men and women. By which rationale, cis people also shouldn’t have to explain that they haven’t transitioned. But perhaps if you want to, you should be able to - if that’s what you want to say about yourself. | |||
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"The issue here on fab is the TV/TS label, this has been said 1000s of times nothing changes. It’s not the Man or Woman label. If you added the word Cis you’re just going to annoy people which will be counterproductive. This can and does piss off people who don’t have an issue with trans people. " Exactly | |||
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"The issue here on fab is the TV/TS label, this has been said 1000s of times nothing changes. It’s not the Man or Woman label. If you added the word Cis you’re just going to annoy people which will be counterproductive. This can and does piss off people who don’t have an issue with trans people. " Sense. By all means, separate out the crossdressers from those undergoing surgeries. But leave men and women alone | |||
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"The issue here on fab is the TV/TS label, this has been said 1000s of times nothing changes. It’s not the Man or Woman label. If you added the word Cis you’re just going to annoy people which will be counterproductive. This can and does piss off people who don’t have an issue with trans people. " Spot on  | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man So you were assigned female at birth? Is someone who was female at birth then transitioned to male a man? Man is the default description for me. Cis would only be used in cases where it had to be established that they had not transitioned. I'm a woman. I don't have to say I'm a cis woman; whereas a trans woman would; as she's the one who has changed from the default. " | |||
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"It does keep being suggested, maybe it'll be in the new updates they're talking about. Ever since I've frequented the forums, I've lost count on how many posts I've senen for TV and TS to be separate. It's not happened yet. Fingers crossed one day. I totally support you Fab sort it out XX"  | |||
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"The issue here on fab is the TV/TS label, this has been said 1000s of times nothing changes. It’s not the Man or Woman label. If you added the word Cis you’re just going to annoy people which will be counterproductive. I take tha om board mate it is sometimes rude of the lgbt community to assume all men and women dont mind or have no issue sayin they are cis. Opolgises and lesson learned But i do feel the tv/ts label needs addressin and non binory added This can and does piss off people who don’t have an issue with trans people. Sense. By all means, separate out the crossdressers from those undergoing surgeries. But leave men and women alone" | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man So you were assigned female at birth? Is someone who was female at birth then transitioned to male a man? Man is the default description for me. Cis would only be used in cases where it had to be established that they had not transitioned. I'm a woman. I don't have to say I'm a cis woman; whereas a trans woman would; as she's the one who has changed from the default. " Why does changing from apparent default have to be explained? | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man So you were assigned female at birth?" I'm not sure there is any need for male & female to become "cis" male or female. It would however be useful if there was trans-m and trans-f and non-binary. It would also be nice if the two members of a couple had a "gender" indicator. The big issue with adding extra options though, is that you need to get people to go back and fill those items in. Cal | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man So you were assigned female at birth? I'm not sure there is any need for male & female to become "cis" male or female. It would however be useful if there was trans-m and trans-f and non-binary. It would also be nice if the two members of a couple had a "gender" indicator. The big issue with adding extra options though, is that you need to get people to go back and fill those items in. Cal " Surely we’d only have to change if we want to, in particular if the existing options don’t apply well to the person in question? (Unless the site went with option of cis people having to define themselves that way) | |||
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"The issue here on fab is the TV/TS label, this has been said 1000s of times nothing changes. It’s not the Man or Woman label. If you added the word Cis you’re just going to annoy people which will be counterproductive. This can and does piss off people who don’t have an issue with trans people." Bingo. It's not the Man/Woman label that's an issue. It's the CD/TV/TS ones that are outdated and need addressing. So Fab could update the categories to be; - Man - Woman - Trans (MtF) - Trans (FtM) - Couple (_,_) The couple to contain whatever the correct combination of the other is in the brackets. | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man So you were assigned female at birth? Is someone who was female at birth then transitioned to male a man? Man is the default description for me. Cis would only be used in cases where it had to be established that they had not transitioned. I'm a woman. I don't have to say I'm a cis woman; whereas a trans woman would; as she's the one who has changed from the default. " Agree with this 100%. | |||
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"The issue here on fab is the TV/TS label, this has been said 1000s of times nothing changes. It’s not the Man or Woman label. If you added the word Cis you’re just going to annoy people which will be counterproductive. This can and does piss off people who don’t have an issue with trans people. Bingo. It's not the Man/Woman label that's an issue. It's the CD/TV/TS ones that are outdated and need addressing. So Fab could update the categories to be; - Man - Woman - Trans (MtF) - Trans (FtM) - Couple (_,_) The couple to contain whatever the correct combination of the other is in the brackets." And non binary. I think that should be in there now | |||
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"And non binary. I think that should be in there now" I don't, personally. When you leave sex and start messing with gender identity, before you know it there's no end to what people want to feel like and identify as (thus the 'attack helicopter' meme). Just tell me what you are biologically with the quick markers... then if there's anything complex or nuanced about how you feel inside, that's what the bio is for. | |||
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"The issue here on fab is the TV/TS label, this has been said 1000s of times nothing changes. It’s not the Man or Woman label. If you added the word Cis you’re just going to annoy people which will be counterproductive. This can and does piss off people who don’t have an issue with trans people. Bingo. It's not the Man/Woman label that's an issue. It's the CD/TV/TS ones that are outdated and need addressing. So Fab could update the categories to be; - Man - Woman - Trans (MtF) - Trans (FtM) - Couple (_,_) The couple to contain whatever the correct combination of the other is in the brackets. And non binary. I think that should be in there now " I’d agree with that. | |||
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"I have a question about this. Why as a woman do I have to adapt to labels like cis woman? you don't your a woman that's great leave others to there labels I don't pander to it either man woman end" It's not that there is only man or woman, I understand and accept other gender identities. I get the ick when being referred to as a cis woman. Why change something that isn't broken, woman/man works for people that are the gender they were born with. I just feel like a total outsider when referred as cis. | |||
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"And non binary. I think that should be in there now I don't, personally. When you leave sex and start messing with gender identity, before you know it there's no end to what people want to feel like and identify as (thus the 'attack helicopter' meme). Just tell me what you are biologically with the quick markers... then if there's anything complex or nuanced about how you feel inside, that's what the bio is for." It’s not actually that complicated, transgender men, transgender woman and non binary. The attack helicopter thing is just nonsense made up by people who have an issue with transgender people. | |||
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"I have a question about this. Why as a woman do I have to adapt to labels like cis woman? " You don’t, someone born female is a woman, someone who has transitioned to be a woman, is a woman. Cis is basically the same as trans, as in it should be completely irrelevant. | |||
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"And non binary. I think that should be in there now I don't, personally. When you leave sex and start messing with gender identity, before you know it there's no end to what people want to feel like and identify as (thus the 'attack helicopter' meme). Just tell me what you are biologically with the quick markers... then if there's anything complex or nuanced about how you feel inside, that's what the bio is for." I do. As for identify as inanimate objects and animals. I’ll never get on board with that. But non binary is part of life now and should be included. | |||
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"It’s not actually that complicated, transgender men, transgender woman and non binary. The attack helicopter thing is just nonsense made up by people who have an issue with transgender people." I disagree. The whole gender identity thing is a giant can of worms, and if the flood gates are opened then Fab will never have enough categories and labels to appease the radicals, as they can't even decided amongst themselves how many there are... | |||
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"I have a question about this. Why as a woman do I have to adapt to labels like cis woman? you don't your a woman that's great leave others to there labels I don't pander to it either man woman end It's not that there is only man or woman, I understand and accept other gender identities. I get the ick when being referred to as a cis woman. Why change something that isn't broken, woman/man works for people that are the gender they were born with. I just feel like a total outsider when referred as cis. " Agree. I’m a woman and that’s it. Simple. | |||
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"I do. As for identify as inanimate objects and animals. I’ll never get on board with that. But non binary is part of life now and should be included. " And that's fine. We can agree to disagree on it. But that's exactly what the 'non-binary' slope inevitable leads into; animals and inanimate objects. There has to be a line somewhere, in my opinion. | |||
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"I do. As for identify as inanimate objects and animals. I’ll never get on board with that. But non binary is part of life now and should be included. And that's fine. We can agree to disagree on it. But that's exactly what the 'non-binary' slope inevitable leads into; animals and inanimate objects. There has to be a line somewhere, in my opinion." To be honest in my comments I was thinking of non binary as not wanting to be identified as male or female. I didn’t even think of the animal/lamp/helicopter thing. My brain can’t even go there I cannot come to terms with it! | |||
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"And non binary. I think that should be in there now I don't, personally. When you leave sex and start messing with gender identity, before you know it there's no end to what people want to feel like and identify as (thus the 'attack helicopter' meme). Just tell me what you are biologically with the quick markers... then if there's anything complex or nuanced about how you feel inside, that's what the bio is for. I do. As for identify as inanimate objects and animals. I’ll never get on board with that. But non binary is part of life now and should be included. " I'm not bothered either way but I wonder how many people would use it when they found themselves excluded from people searching for 'men' or 'women', or couldn't message someone for the same reason ? | |||
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"I do. As for identify as inanimate objects and animals. I’ll never get on board with that. But non binary is part of life now and should be included. And that's fine. We can agree to disagree on it. But that's exactly what the 'non-binary' slope inevitable leads into; animals and inanimate objects. There has to be a line somewhere, in my opinion." No it doesn’t. The NB thing is just saying they don’t feel they are one gender, they may feel both or neither. What it does not include is animals, helicopters or other objects that’s just made up bullshit that doesn’t come from trans people. | |||
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"I do find it hard to believe in 2023 tha fab still only has man/woman tv/ts as titles. A trans person male or female is not a transvesitie or trans sexual they are trans male / female And cis man and cis woman would be more inclusive aswell as non binoary. " everyone has a profile to explain in as much detail their sexual orientation as they see fit,, that way others can read it and either make first contact or just pass on to the next profile...  | |||
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" No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man" EXACTLY THIS. There's male, female; Man Woman and that's it. I don't need a prefix. People who want to identify differently can use a prefix if they wish, but don't make have to use one. | |||
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"I do. As for identify as inanimate objects and animals. I’ll never get on board with that. But non binary is part of life now and should be included. And that's fine. We can agree to disagree on it. But that's exactly what the 'non-binary' slope inevitable leads into; animals and inanimate objects. There has to be a line somewhere, in my opinion. No it doesn’t. The NB thing is just saying they don’t feel they are one gender, they may feel both or neither. What it does not include is animals, helicopters or other objects that’s just made up bullshit that doesn’t come from trans people." That is just attention seeking because they can, in my opinion anyway. It’s absolutely ridiculous. And if that makes me some kind of “ist” or phobic then I’ll take it. | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man So you were assigned female at birth?" Sex isn't "assigned" at birth, it is observed at birth. | |||
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"The issue here on fab is the TV/TS label, this has been said 1000s of times nothing changes. It’s not the Man or Woman label. If you added the word Cis you’re just going to annoy people which will be counterproductive. This can and does piss off people who don’t have an issue with trans people. Bingo. It's not the Man/Woman label that's an issue. It's the CD/TV/TS ones that are outdated and need addressing. So Fab could update the categories to be; - Man - Woman - Trans (MtF) - Trans (FtM) - Couple (_,_) The couple to contain whatever the correct combination of the other is in the brackets."
And Throuple | |||
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"To be honest in my comments I was thinking of non binary as not wanting to be identified as male or female." But the issue here is that they are either male or female. They have a sex. We're told that sex and gender are different. Okay, fine. So use the sex marker and then, if you want to, dive into the whole gender thing in your bio. If Fab start including both sex and gender markers, then the problem becomes which ones do they include? Which ones do they leave out? How many even are there?? "No it doesn’t. The NB thing is just saying they don’t feel they are one gender, they may feel both or neither. What it does not include is animals, helicopters or other objects that’s just made up bullshit that doesn’t come from trans people." You keep conflating trans people with what non-binary means. Whereas, in reality, they are diametrically opposed ideologies. In order to be trans you must accept the binary. We're told sex and gender are completely separate, but then this sort of paradox exists and sex and gender continue to be conflated. You see? It gets messy REAL quick. | |||
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"And non binary. I think that should be in there now I don't, personally. When you leave sex and start messing with gender identity, before you know it there's no end to what people want to feel like and identify as (thus the 'attack helicopter' meme). Just tell me what you are biologically with the quick markers... then if there's anything complex or nuanced about how you feel inside, that's what the bio is for. I do. As for identify as inanimate objects and animals. I’ll never get on board with that. But non binary is part of life now and should be included. I'm not bothered either way but I wonder how many people would use it when they found themselves excluded from people searching for 'men' or 'women', or couldn't message someone for the same reason ? " They’ed probably still get more contact, replies to their messages and meets than men  | |||
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"I have a question about this. Why as a woman do I have to adapt to labels like cis woman? you don't your a woman that's great leave others to there labels I don't pander to it either man woman end It's not that there is only man or woman, I understand and accept other gender identities. I get the ick when being referred to as a cis woman. Why change something that isn't broken, woman/man works for people that are the gender they were born with. I just feel like a total outsider when referred as cis. " I'm totally with you on this, I don't like being referred to as "cis" I am and always will be a woman, there's no need to add extra labels. Mrs | |||
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"To be honest in my comments I was thinking of non binary as not wanting to be identified as male or female. But the issue here is that they are either male or female. They have a sex. We're told that sex and gender are different. Okay, fine. So use the sex marker and then, if you want to, dive into the whole gender thing in your bio. If Fab start including both sex and gender markers, then the problem becomes which ones do they include? Which ones do they leave out? How many even are there?? No it doesn’t. The NB thing is just saying they don’t feel they are one gender, they may feel both or neither. What it does not include is animals, helicopters or other objects that’s just made up bullshit that doesn’t come from trans people. You keep conflating trans people with what non-binary means. Whereas, in reality, they are diametrically opposed ideologies. In order to be trans you must accept the binary. We're told sex and gender are completely separate, but then this sort of paradox exists and sex and gender continue to be conflated. You see? It gets messy REAL quick." Do you understand that non binary people are also transgender? They are just as valid as a transgender man or a transgender woman. | |||
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"Do you understand that non binary people are also transgender?" Okay, so let me ask you some questions. What does 'non-binary' mean? What does 'transgender' mean? What does 'gender' mean? What does 'sex' mean? Are sex and gender different? How does a non-binary person, someone who rejects the binary, also identify as a trans person, someone who, by definition, accepts the binary? | |||
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"Do you understand that non binary people are also transgender? Okay, so let me ask you some questions. What does 'non-binary' mean? What does 'transgender' mean? What does 'gender' mean? What does 'sex' mean? Are sex and gender different? How does a non-binary person, someone who rejects the binary, also identify as a trans person, someone who, by definition, accepts the binary?" Ok Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. What it doesn’t include is helicopters and animals etc. Transgender keeping it simple means you’ve changed gender from your birth gender. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. | |||
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"Do you understand that non binary people are also transgender? Okay, so let me ask you some questions. What does 'non-binary' mean? What does 'transgender' mean? What does 'gender' mean? What does 'sex' mean? Are sex and gender different? How does a non-binary person, someone who rejects the binary, also identify as a trans person, someone who, by definition, accepts the binary? Ok Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. What it doesn’t include is helicopters and animals etc. Transgender keeping it simple means you’ve changed gender from your birth gender. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender." Em, binary means two. So the whole basis of your comment is wrong | |||
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"Do you understand that non binary people are also transgender? Okay, so let me ask you some questions. What does 'non-binary' mean? What does 'transgender' mean? What does 'gender' mean? What does 'sex' mean? Are sex and gender different? How does a non-binary person, someone who rejects the binary, also identify as a trans person, someone who, by definition, accepts the binary? Ok Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. What it doesn’t include is helicopters and animals etc. Transgender keeping it simple means you’ve changed gender from your birth gender. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. Em, binary means two. So the whole basis of your comment is wrong " In the case if gender binary means one either male of female. This doesn’t mean that non binary people don’t exist and that their feelings aren’t valid. And as I said it doesn’t include anything non gender related as you stated earlier. What’s your real problem here? | |||
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"Do you understand that non binary people are also transgender? Okay, so let me ask you some questions. What does 'non-binary' mean? What does 'transgender' mean? What does 'gender' mean? What does 'sex' mean? Are sex and gender different? How does a non-binary person, someone who rejects the binary, also identify as a trans person, someone who, by definition, accepts the binary? Ok Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. What it doesn’t include is helicopters and animals etc. Transgender keeping it simple means you’ve changed gender from your birth gender. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. Em, binary means two. So the whole basis of your comment is wrong In the case if gender binary means one either male of female. This doesn’t mean that non binary people don’t exist and that their feelings aren’t valid. And as I said it doesn’t include anything non gender related as you stated earlier. What’s your real problem here?" No it doesnt mean one in the case of gender. The meaning of the word hasnt changed to suit the gender conversation. It means neither of the two things, male or female. Binary always means 'of 2 things'. Who said these people don't exist or that their feelings dont count? And who said i have a problem? | |||
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"Do you understand that non binary people are also transgender? Okay, so let me ask you some questions. What does 'non-binary' mean? What does 'transgender' mean? What does 'gender' mean? What does 'sex' mean? Are sex and gender different? How does a non-binary person, someone who rejects the binary, also identify as a trans person, someone who, by definition, accepts the binary? Ok Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. What it doesn’t include is helicopters and animals etc. Transgender keeping it simple means you’ve changed gender from your birth gender. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. Em, binary means two. So the whole basis of your comment is wrong In the case if gender binary means one either male of female. This doesn’t mean that non binary people don’t exist and that their feelings aren’t valid. And as I said it doesn’t include anything non gender related as you stated earlier. What’s your real problem here? No it doesnt mean one in the case of gender. The meaning of the word hasnt changed to suit the gender conversation. It means neither of the two things, male or female. Binary always means 'of 2 things'. Who said these people don't exist or that their feelings dont count? And who said i have a problem? " With transgender people like myself a binary gender identity means you feel (identify) as one gender either male or female. Hence one. Where as non binary means not one. I can’t explain it any more simpler than that, if you don’t get then you don’t get it. Let’s end out conversation here. | |||
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"Do you understand that non binary people are also transgender? Okay, so let me ask you some questions. What does 'non-binary' mean? What does 'transgender' mean? What does 'gender' mean? What does 'sex' mean? Are sex and gender different? How does a non-binary person, someone who rejects the binary, also identify as a trans person, someone who, by definition, accepts the binary? Ok Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. What it doesn’t include is helicopters and animals etc. Transgender keeping it simple means you’ve changed gender from your birth gender. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. Em, binary means two. So the whole basis of your comment is wrong In the case if gender binary means one either male of female. This doesn’t mean that non binary people don’t exist and that their feelings aren’t valid. And as I said it doesn’t include anything non gender related as you stated earlier. What’s your real problem here? No it doesnt mean one in the case of gender. The meaning of the word hasnt changed to suit the gender conversation. It means neither of the two things, male or female. Binary always means 'of 2 things'. Who said these people don't exist or that their feelings dont count? And who said i have a problem? With transgender people like myself a binary gender identity means you feel (identify) as one gender either male or female. Hence one. Where as non binary means not one. I can’t explain it any more simpler than that, if you don’t get then you don’t get it. Let’s end out conversation here." I see what you’re trying to say but it’s kind of the other way around. He’s right in what he’s saying. Binary - one of two things ie male or female x | |||
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"Do you understand that non binary people are also transgender? Okay, so let me ask you some questions. What does 'non-binary' mean? What does 'transgender' mean? What does 'gender' mean? What does 'sex' mean? Are sex and gender different? How does a non-binary person, someone who rejects the binary, also identify as a trans person, someone who, by definition, accepts the binary? Ok Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. What it doesn’t include is helicopters and animals etc. Transgender keeping it simple means you’ve changed gender from your birth gender. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. Em, binary means two. So the whole basis of your comment is wrong In the case if gender binary means one either male of female. This doesn’t mean that non binary people don’t exist and that their feelings aren’t valid. And as I said it doesn’t include anything non gender related as you stated earlier. What’s your real problem here? No it doesnt mean one in the case of gender. The meaning of the word hasnt changed to suit the gender conversation. It means neither of the two things, male or female. Binary always means 'of 2 things'. Who said these people don't exist or that their feelings dont count? And who said i have a problem? With transgender people like myself a binary gender identity means you feel (identify) as one gender either male or female. Hence one. Where as non binary means not one. I can’t explain it any more simpler than that, if you don’t get then you don’t get it. Let’s end out conversation here. I see what you’re trying to say but it’s kind of the other way around. He’s right in what he’s saying. Binary - one of two things ie male or female x" Yes I see what he’s trying to say. But what I’m saying is binary trans people only identify (feel) as one of those genders either male or female. Hence the term binary meaning one. Where as non binary can identify (feel) as both or neither, hence not one. He’s also wrong when he says non binary people are not transgender. | |||
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"I have a question about this. Why as a woman do I have to adapt to labels like cis woman? You don’t, someone born female is a woman, someone who has transitioned to be a woman, is a woman. Cis is basically the same as trans, as in it should be completely irrelevant." You make that sound so matter-of -fact, as if it's wrong to want to know the birth sex of a potential partner. Maybe that's less important on Fab, where people are looking for sexual encounters rather than relationships, but I believe that I have the right to know if I'm going to meet a cis man (I hate using the prefix) or someone who has transitioned from a female. It is a fundamental part of a physical encounter that I don't believe should be brushed off, or that I might be labelled as transphobic for choosing to only want to meet cis men. Perhaps I'm altering the subject of this thread, bit I think it's important all the same. | |||
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"Do you understand that non binary people are also transgender? Okay, so let me ask you some questions. What does 'non-binary' mean? What does 'transgender' mean? What does 'gender' mean? What does 'sex' mean? Are sex and gender different? How does a non-binary person, someone who rejects the binary, also identify as a trans person, someone who, by definition, accepts the binary? Ok Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. What it doesn’t include is helicopters and animals etc. Transgender keeping it simple means you’ve changed gender from your birth gender. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. Em, binary means two. So the whole basis of your comment is wrong In the case if gender binary means one either male of female. This doesn’t mean that non binary people don’t exist and that their feelings aren’t valid. And as I said it doesn’t include anything non gender related as you stated earlier. What’s your real problem here? No it doesnt mean one in the case of gender. The meaning of the word hasnt changed to suit the gender conversation. It means neither of the two things, male or female. Binary always means 'of 2 things'. Who said these people don't exist or that their feelings dont count? And who said i have a problem? With transgender people like myself a binary gender identity means you feel (identify) as one gender either male or female. Hence one. Where as non binary means not one. I can’t explain it any more simpler than that, if you don’t get then you don’t get it. Let’s end out conversation here. I see what you’re trying to say but it’s kind of the other way around. He’s right in what he’s saying. Binary - one of two things ie male or female x Yes I see what he’s trying to say. But what I’m saying is binary trans people only identify (feel) as one of those genders either male or female. Hence the term binary meaning one. Where as non binary can identify (feel) as both or neither, hence not one. He’s also wrong when he says non binary people are not transgender." Your last point, that wasnt me. That was another poster | |||
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"Why does everyone have to label everything these days? Pick what ever you want and leave a note in the description, job done." Reality is, everything is labelled, a simple label works, on a site like this it allows one person to know if they want to meet another. | |||
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"Do you understand that non binary people are also transgender? Okay, so let me ask you some questions. What does 'non-binary' mean? What does 'transgender' mean? What does 'gender' mean? What does 'sex' mean? Are sex and gender different? How does a non-binary person, someone who rejects the binary, also identify as a trans person, someone who, by definition, accepts the binary? Ok Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. What it doesn’t include is helicopters and animals etc. Transgender keeping it simple means you’ve changed gender from your birth gender. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. Em, binary means two. So the whole basis of your comment is wrong In the case if gender binary means one either male of female. This doesn’t mean that non binary people don’t exist and that their feelings aren’t valid. And as I said it doesn’t include anything non gender related as you stated earlier. What’s your real problem here? No it doesnt mean one in the case of gender. The meaning of the word hasnt changed to suit the gender conversation. It means neither of the two things, male or female. Binary always means 'of 2 things'. Who said these people don't exist or that their feelings dont count? And who said i have a problem? With transgender people like myself a binary gender identity means you feel (identify) as one gender either male or female. Hence one. Where as non binary means not one. I can’t explain it any more simpler than that, if you don’t get then you don’t get it. Let’s end out conversation here. I see what you’re trying to say but it’s kind of the other way around. He’s right in what he’s saying. Binary - one of two things ie male or female x Yes I see what he’s trying to say. But what I’m saying is binary trans people only identify (feel) as one of those genders either male or female. Hence the term binary meaning one. Where as non binary can identify (feel) as both or neither, hence not one. He’s also wrong when he says non binary people are not transgender. Your last point, that wasnt me. That was another poster" Sorry missed that, thanks. | |||
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"Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender." No, binary means two. Like a lightswitch. It's either on or it's off. So for gender it means the exact same; a binary system consists of only two. And if you're not one then you are the other. "Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both." Non-binary means not just two genders. It's the rejection of the binary system, replacing just male or female with potentially unlimited number of genders. "Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between." Yes AND no? Do you not see the confusing and contradictory nature of all these gender ideologies and identity politics? Such as... "Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender." This is a paradox. By definition, non-binary is a rejection of the binary system. People who suffer from gender dysphoria recognise binary sex, feel uncomfortable with theirs, and therefore transition from one to the other. Meanwhile we're told by non-binary people that gender doesn't really exist and it's all a construct, etc. Which if true eliminates any need for transition when it comes to gender. So, should the word be changed back to transsexual instead? The two ideologies directly oppose each other. | |||
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"Why do other people push their beliefs on us. I'm a man and I want to be addressed as that. I don't care what you call yourself that's your choice not mine. People give out about religious groups pushing their beliefs on others some LGBTQ+ people are doing exactly the same and if you disagree with them your wrong. I don't care what you want to call yourself if you want to call your self a doorknob its your choice and I'll respect you for it but don't push your beliefs on me. " I agree to a certain extent but this is part of life now. I’m very unlikely to be compatible with a non-binary person. I know 3 on here and we’ve clashed many a time and I’ve rarely properly fell out with people here. Even if you don’t agree/want to be a part of it I think we need to be educated on it. Our children are being educated about it. What do we say? That’s a load of bollocks? No, it’s part of life now and always will be. If we don’t agree with something in life we can’t just ignore it and hope it will go away. | |||
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"Why do other people push their beliefs on us. I'm a man and I want to be addressed as that. I don't care what you call yourself that's your choice not mine. People give out about religious groups pushing their beliefs on others some LGBTQ+ people are doing exactly the same and if you disagree with them your wrong. I don't care what you want to call yourself if you want to call your self a doorknob its your choice and I'll respect you for it but don't push your beliefs on me. " Exactly this, if you want to identify yourself as cheese toasties then go for it but forgive me for calling you a her/her | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man So you were assigned female at birth? Sex isn't "assigned" at birth, it is observed at birth." ..and then documented. Maybe that's a better word for it than assigned? | |||
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"Why do other people push their beliefs on us. I'm a man and I want to be addressed as that. I don't care what you call yourself that's your choice not mine. People give out about religious groups pushing their beliefs on others some LGBTQ+ people are doing exactly the same and if you disagree with them your wrong. I don't care what you want to call yourself if you want to call your self a doorknob its your choice and I'll respect you for it but don't push your beliefs on me. Exactly this, if you want to identify yourself as cheese toasties then go for it but forgive me for calling you a her/her " So if someone specifically wanted you to refer to them as they/them would you refuse? I’m not talking about cheese toasties etc, like I said above I will never accept that. | |||
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"Why do other people push their beliefs on us. I'm a man and I want to be addressed as that. I don't care what you call yourself that's your choice not mine. People give out about religious groups pushing their beliefs on others some LGBTQ+ people are doing exactly the same and if you disagree with them your wrong. I don't care what you want to call yourself if you want to call your self a doorknob its your choice and I'll respect you for it but don't push your beliefs on me. I agree to a certain extent but this is part of life now. I’m very unlikely to be compatible with a non-binary person. I know 3 on here and we’ve clashed many a time and I’ve rarely properly fell out with people here. Even if you don’t agree/want to be a part of it I think we need to be educated on it. Our children are being educated about it. What do we say? That’s a load of bollocks? No, it’s part of life now and always will be. If we don’t agree with something in life we can’t just ignore it and hope it will go away. " i know it won't go away but the lgbtq+ want their beliefs to be respect but it works both ways. If you want me to respect your chosen pronouns you have to respect mine and mine is im a man simple as that. | |||
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"Why do other people push their beliefs on us. I'm a man and I want to be addressed as that. I don't care what you call yourself that's your choice not mine. People give out about religious groups pushing their beliefs on others some LGBTQ+ people are doing exactly the same and if you disagree with them your wrong. I don't care what you want to call yourself if you want to call your self a doorknob its your choice and I'll respect you for it but don't push your beliefs on me. I agree to a certain extent but this is part of life now. I’m very unlikely to be compatible with a non-binary person. I know 3 on here and we’ve clashed many a time and I’ve rarely properly fell out with people here. Even if you don’t agree/want to be a part of it I think we need to be educated on it. Our children are being educated about it. What do we say? That’s a load of bollocks? No, it’s part of life now and always will be. If we don’t agree with something in life we can’t just ignore it and hope it will go away. i know it won't go away but the lgbtq+ want their beliefs to be respect but it works both ways. If you want me to respect your chosen pronouns you have to respect mine and mine is im a man simple as that. " Absobloodylutely! Don’t be calling me a they/them. I won’t have it. Just as I’m sure a NB won’t accept being called he/she | |||
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"Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. No, binary means two. Like a lightswitch. It's either on or it's off. So for gender it means the exact same; a binary system consists of only two. And if you're not one then you are the other. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. Non-binary means not just two genders. It's the rejection of the binary system, replacing just male or female with potentially unlimited number of genders. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Yes AND no? Do you not see the confusing and contradictory nature of all these gender ideologies and identity politics? Such as... Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. This is a paradox. By definition, non-binary is a rejection of the binary system. People who suffer from gender dysphoria recognise binary sex, feel uncomfortable with theirs, and therefore transition from one to the other. Meanwhile we're told by non-binary people that gender doesn't really exist and it's all a construct, etc. Which if true eliminates any need for transition when it comes to gender. So, should the word be changed back to transsexual instead? The two ideologies directly oppose each other." But people who are non binary are not rejecting the binary, they not saying someone can’t have a binary gender identity, it’s just not how they feel about their own gender identity. You seam to hold a pretty ignorant bigoted view on them if that’s what you believe they all think. I’m going to end the conversation here, cause to be honest I’m not really bothered about what you think and I have better things to do with my time. | |||
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"I read a quite lot of this thread, then googled ‘cis genders’ Oh my goodness. People will argue and get upset at just about anything these days. Stop the world. I want to get off. " we all know what cis means but I want to addressed my way and not have another person push their beliefs on me. Is that too much to ask. | |||
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"But people who are non binary are not rejecting the binary," Yes they are. By definition. "You seam to hold a pretty ignorant bigoted view on them if that’s what you believe they all think." And how do I tackle my ignorance, if not by asking questions and trying to get clarity on definitions, etc? "I’m going to end the conversation here, cause to be honest I’m not really bothered about what you think and I have better things to do with my time." You just called me a bigot for asking questions and trying to have a discussion. That tells me you are very much indeed bothered about what I think. This is a public forum, you're free to either engage or not. Obviously. | |||
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"The issue here on fab is the TV/TS label, this has been said 1000s of times nothing changes. It’s not the Man or Woman label. If you added the word Cis you’re just going to annoy people which will be counterproductive. This can and does piss off people who don’t have an issue with trans people." I agree with this | |||
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"I'm not sure a change is necessary as male/female are just terms for what biological gender you are. What you identify as is a different matter, which can be addressed when you type out your profile." On here though. It can be used for searches and also to filter so I think it would be a good thing. | |||
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"I read a quite lot of this thread, then googled ‘cis genders’ Oh my goodness. People will argue and get upset at just about anything these days. Stop the world. I want to get off. we all know what cis means but I want to addressed my way and not have another person push their beliefs on me. Is that too much to ask. " Call yourself what you like, but I will never call myself a ‘cis man’ because I was born male and that’s perfectly enough. I’m male, and nothing can change that. And I’ll never feel the need to clarify it by putting ‘cis’ in front of the word ‘male’, nor argue the toss about beliefs. | |||
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"Basically, there's male and female. That's it. Where you go beyond that, is up to you. But no matter how you identify or what you transition to, you are still fundementally male or female. You can't change your DNA." allways the one!! X | |||
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"But people who are non binary are not rejecting the binary, Yes they are. By definition. You seam to hold a pretty ignorant bigoted view on them if that’s what you believe they all think. And how do I tackle my ignorance, if not by asking questions and trying to get clarity on definitions, etc? I’m going to end the conversation here, cause to be honest I’m not really bothered about what you think and I have better things to do with my time. You just called me a bigot for asking questions and trying to have a discussion. That tells me you are very much indeed bothered about what I think. This is a public forum, you're free to either engage or not. Obviously." I’ve told you what terms we use, what non binary and binary within trans circles actually means. These are terms also used with in the NHS and treatment of gender dysphoria, gender transition etc. All you’ve done is told me I’m wrong, there’s no point in carrying on the conversation. | |||
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"I’ve told you what terms we use, what non binary and binary within trans circles actually means. These are terms also used with in the NHS and treatment of gender dysphoria, gender transition etc." And I've told you what the actual, official definitions are. So, you can hardly blame someone for being ignorant, or being confused and asking questions, when the trans and/or non-binary circles have seemingly decided to change all the definitions to mean something else. "All you’ve done is told me I’m wrong, there’s no point in carrying on the conversation." Again, you're free to leave the conversation at any time. Not sure why you keep stating that you're done whilst continuing to reply? Yet another contradiction. | |||
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"Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. No, binary means two. Like a lightswitch. It's either on or it's off. So for gender it means the exact same; a binary system consists of only two. And if you're not one then you are the other. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. Non-binary means not just two genders. It's the rejection of the binary system, replacing just male or female with potentially unlimited number of genders. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Yes AND no? Do you not see the confusing and contradictory nature of all these gender ideologies and identity politics? Such as... Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. This is a paradox. By definition, non-binary is a rejection of the binary system. People who suffer from gender dysphoria recognise binary sex, feel uncomfortable with theirs, and therefore transition from one to the other. Meanwhile we're told by non-binary people that gender doesn't really exist and it's all a construct, etc. Which if true eliminates any need for transition when it comes to gender. So, should the word be changed back to transsexual instead? The two ideologies directly oppose each other. But people who are non binary are not rejecting the binary, they not saying someone can’t have a binary gender identity, it’s just not how they feel about their own gender identity. You seam to hold a pretty ignorant bigoted view on them if that’s what you believe they all think. I’m going to end the conversation here, cause to be honest I’m not really bothered about what you think and I have better things to do with my time." So theres a polite conversation going on, and then all of a sudden you start accusing him of being bigoted. Do you not see how the majority of the population will look at that and then roll their eyes in disgust? Youre doing yourself and those who identify similar to yourself no favours whatsoever by resorting to that | |||
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" No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man Were you born male? If you were,then you are. XX" He us, you are right. He's a man. 'CIS' has been invented by needy people that need labels & think trying to label the two genders we'll believe there are more. It won't ever work, be who & what you want but you cannot make the world play pretend for you. | |||
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"I noticed the OP has opted out of this discussion! "Smart move | |||
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"Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. No, binary means two. Like a lightswitch. It's either on or it's off. So for gender it means the exact same; a binary system consists of only two. And if you're not one then you are the other. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. Non-binary means not just two genders. It's the rejection of the binary system, replacing just male or female with potentially unlimited number of genders. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Yes AND no? Do you not see the confusing and contradictory nature of all these gender ideologies and identity politics? Such as... Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. This is a paradox. By definition, non-binary is a rejection of the binary system. People who suffer from gender dysphoria recognise binary sex, feel uncomfortable with theirs, and therefore transition from one to the other. Meanwhile we're told by non-binary people that gender doesn't really exist and it's all a construct, etc. Which if true eliminates any need for transition when it comes to gender. So, should the word be changed back to transsexual instead? The two ideologies directly oppose each other. But people who are non binary are not rejecting the binary, they not saying someone can’t have a binary gender identity, it’s just not how they feel about their own gender identity. You seam to hold a pretty ignorant bigoted view on them if that’s what you believe they all think. I’m going to end the conversation here, cause to be honest I’m not really bothered about what you think and I have better things to do with my time. So theres a polite conversation going on, and then all of a sudden you start accusing him of being bigoted. Do you not see how the majority of the population will look at that and then roll their eyes in disgust? Youre doing yourself and those who identify similar to yourself no favours whatsoever by resorting to that" Thing is we never gonna agree, he said he wants to learn but he’s told me I’m wrong on most of what I’ve said. The definitions we use etc. If people are not willing to listen then there’s no point in carrying on the conversation. | |||
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"Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. No, binary means two. Like a lightswitch. It's either on or it's off. So for gender it means the exact same; a binary system consists of only two. And if you're not one then you are the other. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. Non-binary means not just two genders. It's the rejection of the binary system, replacing just male or female with potentially unlimited number of genders. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Yes AND no? Do you not see the confusing and contradictory nature of all these gender ideologies and identity politics? Such as... Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. This is a paradox. By definition, non-binary is a rejection of the binary system. People who suffer from gender dysphoria recognise binary sex, feel uncomfortable with theirs, and therefore transition from one to the other. Meanwhile we're told by non-binary people that gender doesn't really exist and it's all a construct, etc. Which if true eliminates any need for transition when it comes to gender. So, should the word be changed back to transsexual instead? The two ideologies directly oppose each other. But people who are non binary are not rejecting the binary, they not saying someone can’t have a binary gender identity, it’s just not how they feel about their own gender identity. You seam to hold a pretty ignorant bigoted view on them if that’s what you believe they all think. I’m going to end the conversation here, cause to be honest I’m not really bothered about what you think and I have better things to do with my time. So theres a polite conversation going on, and then all of a sudden you start accusing him of being bigoted. Do you not see how the majority of the population will look at that and then roll their eyes in disgust? Youre doing yourself and those who identify similar to yourself no favours whatsoever by resorting to that Thing is we never gonna agree, he said he wants to learn but he’s told me I’m wrong on most of what I’ve said. The definitions we use etc. If people are not willing to listen then there’s no point in carrying on the conversation." Thats fine, but why call him bigoted? Just agree to disagree without the abusive comment | |||
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"Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. No, binary means two. Like a lightswitch. It's either on or it's off. So for gender it means the exact same; a binary system consists of only two. And if you're not one then you are the other. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. Non-binary means not just two genders. It's the rejection of the binary system, replacing just male or female with potentially unlimited number of genders. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Yes AND no? Do you not see the confusing and contradictory nature of all these gender ideologies and identity politics? Such as... Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. This is a paradox. By definition, non-binary is a rejection of the binary system. People who suffer from gender dysphoria recognise binary sex, feel uncomfortable with theirs, and therefore transition from one to the other. Meanwhile we're told by non-binary people that gender doesn't really exist and it's all a construct, etc. Which if true eliminates any need for transition when it comes to gender. So, should the word be changed back to transsexual instead? The two ideologies directly oppose each other. But people who are non binary are not rejecting the binary, they not saying someone can’t have a binary gender identity, it’s just not how they feel about their own gender identity. You seam to hold a pretty ignorant bigoted view on them if that’s what you believe they all think. I’m going to end the conversation here, cause to be honest I’m not really bothered about what you think and I have better things to do with my time. So theres a polite conversation going on, and then all of a sudden you start accusing him of being bigoted. Do you not see how the majority of the population will look at that and then roll their eyes in disgust? Youre doing yourself and those who identify similar to yourself no favours whatsoever by resorting to that Thing is we never gonna agree, he said he wants to learn but he’s told me I’m wrong on most of what I’ve said. The definitions we use etc. If people are not willing to listen then there’s no point in carrying on the conversation. Thats fine, but why call him bigoted? Just agree to disagree without the abusive comment" What I actually said was, he seams to hold some bigoted views about them. Them meaning non binary people. It’s not an abusive comment. | |||
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"Binary means one, so for gender it means you feel you are one gender. No, binary means two. Like a lightswitch. It's either on or it's off. So for gender it means the exact same; a binary system consists of only two. And if you're not one then you are the other. Non binary means not one gender, they might feel neither or both. Non-binary means not just two genders. It's the rejection of the binary system, replacing just male or female with potentially unlimited number of genders. Sex, birth sex, biological sex, sex on your birth certificate, sex assigned at birth, gender take your pick. Are sex and gender different? Yes and no, not everything in life is black and white, there are grey areas in between. Yes AND no? Do you not see the confusing and contradictory nature of all these gender ideologies and identity politics? Such as... Non binary people are not rejecting the binary, they just don’t feel (identify) binary when it comes to gender. However they were born either male or female and transitioned to NB hence they are very much transgender. This is a paradox. By definition, non-binary is a rejection of the binary system. People who suffer from gender dysphoria recognise binary sex, feel uncomfortable with theirs, and therefore transition from one to the other. Meanwhile we're told by non-binary people that gender doesn't really exist and it's all a construct, etc. Which if true eliminates any need for transition when it comes to gender. So, should the word be changed back to transsexual instead? The two ideologies directly oppose each other. But people who are non binary are not rejecting the binary, they not saying someone can’t have a binary gender identity, it’s just not how they feel about their own gender identity. You seam to hold a pretty ignorant bigoted view on them if that’s what you believe they all think. I’m going to end the conversation here, cause to be honest I’m not really bothered about what you think and I have better things to do with my time. So theres a polite conversation going on, and then all of a sudden you start accusing him of being bigoted. Do you not see how the majority of the population will look at that and then roll their eyes in disgust? Youre doing yourself and those who identify similar to yourself no favours whatsoever by resorting to that Thing is we never gonna agree, he said he wants to learn but he’s told me I’m wrong on most of what I’ve said. The definitions we use etc. If people are not willing to listen then there’s no point in carrying on the conversation. Thats fine, but why call him bigoted? Just agree to disagree without the abusive comment What I actually said was, he seams to hold some bigoted views about them. Them meaning non binary people. It’s not an abusive comment. " Oh come on, accusing someone of holding bigoted views is basically the same as calling them bigoted. Stop splitting hairs | |||
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"I don't mind what I'm called cis female /female /woman/ her whatever! I won't take umbrage over it lol x" This
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"I'm oldschool... Cock n balls = man Tits n vag = woman Maybe I'm a Dinosaur?" With regards to toilet facilities/prisons etc I agree. However once someone has the op and doesn’t have “cock n balls” they are a woman in my opinion (and vice versa). I know some think differently and I accept we all have different views. | |||
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"It's getting to ridiculous levels if the media is reporting it correctly. A prime example is the story of men, dressed as men, some with facial hair, requesting (almost demanding) the use of female faciliities, namely, changing rooms because they say they identify as female. Slightly off topic perhaps, but not far." I identify as a sex god, but it hasn’t got me anywhere in life (so far….) Which toilet should I choose? | |||
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"I'm oldschool... Cock n balls = man Tits n vag = woman Maybe I'm a Dinosaur? With regards to toilet facilities/prisons etc I agree. However once someone has the op and doesn’t have “cock n balls” they are a woman in my opinion (and vice versa). I know some think differently and I accept we all have different views. " Oh didn't think about post ops... showing my ignorance there I suppose. Its my belief that you should crack on with the bits you have. Again... probably an old way of looking at it | |||
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" Oh didn't think about post ops... showing my ignorance there I suppose. Its my belief that you should crack on with the bits you have. Again... probably an old way of looking at it" Definitely 'crack on' once the dangly bits have gone! | |||
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" Oh didn't think about post ops... showing my ignorance there I suppose. Its my belief that you should crack on with the bits you have. Again... probably an old way of looking at it Definitely 'crack on' once the dangly bits have gone!" **why isn't there a laughing emoji here? Cos I would have put a line of em!** | |||
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"It's getting to ridiculous levels if the media is reporting it correctly. A prime example is the story of men, dressed as men, some with facial hair, requesting (almost demanding) the use of female faciliities, namely, changing rooms because they say they identify as female. Slightly off topic perhaps, but not far. I identify as a sex god, but it hasn’t got me anywhere in life (so far….) Which toilet should I choose?" That's why some call it a 'throne'. Just the thing for a sex god. | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man So you were assigned female at birth? Is someone who was female at birth then transitioned to male a man? Man is the default description for me. Cis would only be used in cases where it had to be established that they had not transitioned. I'm a woman. I don't have to say I'm a cis woman; whereas a trans woman would; as she's the one who has changed from the default. " I totally agree with your opinion on this. It's the best way to describe it x | |||
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"Given the purpose of the site maybe it needs stripped down to a more simple what genitalia do you currently possess and what gender do you present as then." That's fair. | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. " Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) " Why not Cis men Cis women Trans men Trans women (CD feels odd imo to have as part of this. But we can add it in) Or Non-trans man Non-trans women Trans man Trans women. | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) Why not Cis men Cis women Trans men Trans women (CD feels odd imo to have as part of this. But we can add it in) Or Non-trans man Non-trans women Trans man Trans women. " Because there are men and there are women. Thats your starting point. Not 'cis' men or 'cis' women. Men and women. After that do what you like | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) Why not Cis men Cis women Trans men Trans women (CD feels odd imo to have as part of this. But we can add it in) Or Non-trans man Non-trans women Trans man Trans women. Because there are men and there are women. Thats your starting point. Not 'cis' men or 'cis' women. Men and women. After that do what you like" Exactly. NO PREFIX REQUIRED. | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) Why not Cis men Cis women Trans men Trans women (CD feels odd imo to have as part of this. But we can add it in) Or Non-trans man Non-trans women Trans man Trans women. Because there are men and there are women. Thats your starting point. Not 'cis' men or 'cis' women. Men and women. After that do what you like Exactly. NO PREFIX REQUIRED." this reads as tho you'd be saying trans women aren't women. That may or may not be the intent, but it's how the logic would need to work. | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) Why not Cis men Cis women Trans men Trans women (CD feels odd imo to have as part of this. But we can add it in) Or Non-trans man Non-trans women Trans man Trans women. Because there are men and there are women. Thats your starting point. Not 'cis' men or 'cis' women. Men and women. After that do what you like Exactly. NO PREFIX REQUIRED.this reads as tho you'd be saying trans women aren't women. That may or may not be the intent, but it's how the logic would need to work. " It is very clear that both previous posters are referring to the “cis” prefix. | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) Why not Cis men Cis women Trans men Trans women (CD feels odd imo to have as part of this. But we can add it in) Or Non-trans man Non-trans women Trans man Trans women. Because there are men and there are women. Thats your starting point. Not 'cis' men or 'cis' women. Men and women. After that do what you like Exactly. NO PREFIX REQUIRED.this reads as tho you'd be saying trans women aren't women. That may or may not be the intent, but it's how the logic would need to work. It is very clear that both previous posters are referring to the “cis” prefix. "I don't follow. I believe they see it as fine to drop cis as it's the norm. But then if I'm trans I have a list that I believe I can answer yes to both "male" and "trans male". Which isnt great design. But you could read it as meaning that one can only appear in one category, which means a trans man is not a man. It's like having a list that says British Scottish Welsh Irish And saying the majority of Brits are English so when I say British, assume I mean English. Unless I state otherwise. | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) Why not Cis men Cis women Trans men Trans women (CD feels odd imo to have as part of this. But we can add it in) Or Non-trans man Non-trans women Trans man Trans women. Because there are men and there are women. Thats your starting point. Not 'cis' men or 'cis' women. Men and women. After that do what you like Exactly. NO PREFIX REQUIRED.this reads as tho you'd be saying trans women aren't women. That may or may not be the intent, but it's how the logic would need to work. It is very clear that both previous posters are referring to the “cis” prefix. I don't follow. I believe they see it as fine to drop cis as it's the norm. But then if I'm trans I have a list that I believe I can answer yes to both "male" and "trans male". Which isnt great design. But you could read it as meaning that one can only appear in one category, which means a trans man is not a man.
It's like having a list that says
British
Scottish
Welsh
Irish
And saying the majority of Brits are English so when I say British, assume I mean English. Unless I state otherwise. "You’re a perfect example why the topic of trans has become so toxic these last few years | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) Why not Cis men Cis women Trans men Trans women (CD feels odd imo to have as part of this. But we can add it in) Or Non-trans man Non-trans women Trans man Trans women. Because there are men and there are women. Thats your starting point. Not 'cis' men or 'cis' women. Men and women. After that do what you like Exactly. NO PREFIX REQUIRED.this reads as tho you'd be saying trans women aren't women. That may or may not be the intent, but it's how the logic would need to work. It is very clear that both previous posters are referring to the “cis” prefix. I don't follow. I believe they see it as fine to drop cis as it's the norm. But then if I'm trans I have a list that I believe I can answer yes to both "male" and "trans male". Which isnt great design. But you could read it as meaning that one can only appear in one category, which means a trans man is not a man.
It's like having a list that says
British
Scottish
Welsh
Irish
And saying the majority of Brits are English so when I say British, assume I mean English. Unless I state otherwise.
You’re a perfect example why the topic of trans has become so toxic these last few years "can you explain why ? Im looking to approach this in a respectful way. I simply don't see the harm in having cis as a prefix if it avoids excluding others. | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) Why not Cis men Cis women Trans men Trans women (CD feels odd imo to have as part of this. But we can add it in) Or Non-trans man Non-trans women Trans man Trans women. Because there are men and there are women. Thats your starting point. Not 'cis' men or 'cis' women. Men and women. After that do what you like Exactly. NO PREFIX REQUIRED.this reads as tho you'd be saying trans women aren't women. That may or may not be the intent, but it's how the logic would need to work. " Thats correct, i dont believe trans women are women. Just as i dont believe trans men are men. Which is why they should sit separate to 'men' and 'women'. | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) Why not Cis men Cis women Trans men Trans women (CD feels odd imo to have as part of this. But we can add it in) Or Non-trans man Non-trans women Trans man Trans women. Because there are men and there are women. Thats your starting point. Not 'cis' men or 'cis' women. Men and women. After that do what you like Exactly. NO PREFIX REQUIRED.this reads as tho you'd be saying trans women aren't women. That may or may not be the intent, but it's how the logic would need to work. Thats correct, i dont believe trans women are women. Just as i dont believe trans men are men. Which is why they should sit separate to 'men' and 'women'. " thanks for clarifying. If that's your position, I understand why you'd have that list. If we disagree on that we are unlikely to agree on a list! | |||
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"I have a confession. I am not certain what my chromosomes are. I assume XY. But have never had it checked. I have a penis. That's probably why the doctors assigned me the male sex. The maths is on my side. But certainty isnt. Fab could just ask for sex assigned at birth. That probably sucks for people who have transitioned because while the chooser can ignore a profile that looks to manyly/womenly, a trans person probably wouldn't appear in the searches they'd hope for. Because while stuff can be explained in text, most of us use filters. We could get rid of them. Fancy trawling through 100 cock pic profiles to find a gal, fellas? Hmmm. Or maybe we can go with gender. Screw cis and trans. We are all (ignoring NB to keep my argument easier) men or women. I'm sure hetrosexual men won't mind ending in bed with someone who presents as a women but has a cock. Because labels aren't just about what we call ourselves. Its how we search for others. Its very straightforward Men Women Crossdressers Trans (m to f) Trans (f to m) Why not Cis men Cis women Trans men Trans women (CD feels odd imo to have as part of this. But we can add it in) Or Non-trans man Non-trans women Trans man Trans women. Because there are men and there are women. Thats your starting point. Not 'cis' men or 'cis' women. Men and women. After that do what you like Exactly. NO PREFIX REQUIRED.this reads as tho you'd be saying trans women aren't women. That may or may not be the intent, but it's how the logic would need to work. Thats correct, i dont believe trans women are women. Just as i dont believe trans men are men. Which is why they should sit separate to 'men' and 'women'. thanks for clarifying. If that's your position, I understand why you'd have that list. If we disagree on that we are unlikely to agree on a list! " Agreed | |||
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I've seen this setup on other sites and it seems to work well? | |||
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"Why not just have a separate site for them? Like the Gay FAB site. They'd have their own place and it would stop all the bickering on here. All these non binary people who demand to be recognised in whichever form they wish to be in on any given day. Yet they want titles added to men and women who see themselves as just that. A man or a woman. If hypocrisy has to be brought into the equation then things will begin to topple." | |||
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"Why not just have a separate site for them? Like the Gay FAB site. They'd have their own place and it would stop all the bickering on here. All these non binary people who demand to be recognised in whichever form they wish to be in on any given day. Yet they want titles added to men and women who see themselves as just that. A man or a woman. If hypocrisy has to be brought into the equation then things will begin to topple." | |||
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"this reads as tho you'd be saying trans women aren't women. That may or may not be the intent, but it's how the logic would need to work." That's because that IS how logic works. A man and a trans man are not the same. A woman and a trans woman are not the same. There's a very important biological distinction to make. Having a pre-fix going both ways to differentiate one from the other is entirely superfluous. | |||
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"It’s not actually that complicated, transgender men, transgender woman and non binary. The attack helicopter thing is just nonsense made up by people who have an issue with transgender people. I disagree. The whole gender identity thing is a giant can of worms, and if the flood gates are opened then Fab will never have enough categories and labels to appease the radicals, as they can't even decided amongst themselves how many there are..." A man of sense. | |||
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"This confused me almost as much as a conversation from the Big Bang Theory a few years back…. Sheldon: I have a question about Batman. Batman is a man who dresses up like a bat. Man-bat is a part man, part bat hybrid. Now, if Man-Bat dressed up as a man to fight crime, would he be Man-Batman? Leonard: No, he’d be Bat-Man-Bat. Raj: But wouldn’t Man-Batman just be a Batman that was bitten by a radioactive man? Howard: But Batman is a man. You’re talking about a man who would have the powers of a man. That’s just Man-Man. Sheldon: Well, isn’t Man-Man just Man? Leonard: But what if Man-Man dressed as a bat? Raj: Well, that’s just Batman. Leonard: No, if a man dresses as a bat, that’s Batman, but if Man-Man dresses as a bat, that’s Batman-Man. See. Completely lost!!!!! "Well, when the floodgates are opened... | |||
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"Should a crosdresser be in tg/TV category if they have no plan on transitioning fully or should they stay in male category ? " Maybe they shouldn't be in a ts category. | |||
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"Male female & other I would think is quite simple way to sort this problem " Would it? Are trans men not male and trans women not female? Who's going in the "Other" box? | |||
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"I have a question about this. Why as a woman do I have to adapt to labels like cis woman? " You don't. Except in the pretty small number of situations where it is somehow essential to confirm that you are not trans. Similarly, in an ideal world, I should not have to term myself as a trans woman, except in the pretty small number of situations where it is somehow essential to confirm that I am not cis. Basically, unless it involves medical matters or something where genitals might get bumped together, we should both just be able to call ourselves women. | |||
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"I have a question about this. Why as a woman do I have to adapt to labels like cis woman? You don't. Except in the pretty small number of situations where it is somehow essential to confirm that you are not trans. Similarly, in an ideal world, I should not have to term myself as a trans woman, except in the pretty small number of situations where it is somehow essential to confirm that I am not cis. Basically, unless it involves medical matters or something where genitals might get bumped together, we should both just be able to call ourselves women." This was always going to be a divisive subject. I'll stick to what I posted previously. Regarding Fab, it's important to state the fact that you're TV if you're wanting to meet, to avoid awkward situations. If however, gender reassignment has taken place, I think it's still important for that information to be stated on the profile, again, if any meeting is sought. Now, if the purpose of anyones presence here on Fab is just to chat and use the forums, it's not as important for that information to be mentioned. I guess it's up to each individual whether or not he/she would like to know. Personally, I would. But that's just me. | |||
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"I have a question about this. Why as a woman do I have to adapt to labels like cis woman? " I agree! | |||
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"I have a question about this. Why as a woman do I have to adapt to labels like cis woman? I agree! " So do I. I think this is a case of attempting to shift the goalposts. Maybe by those who don't want the label of TV/TS etc, but who want to label biological females (sort of like a 'let's see how they like it' situation) | |||
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"Should a crosdresser be in tg/TV category if they have no plan on transitioning fully or should they stay in male category ? " For the purposes of categorization on this site, I think it's fine. Otherwise if you take this to its logical conclusion, then anyone who presents as the opposite gender but hasn't medically transitioned is technically still a crossdresser.....Probably one for the unpopular opinions thread. | |||
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"Are trans men not male and trans women not female?" No, they’re not. Male and female are biological sex/chromosomal markers and they cannot be changed. | |||
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"A trans person is either male or female, just like a cis person. Adding non binary would be a good idea though." This exactly. However, I would object to myself being called cis. Vx | |||
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"The issue here on fab is the TV/TS label, this has been said 1000s of times nothing changes. It’s not the Man or Woman label. If you added the word Cis you’re just going to annoy people which will be counterproductive. This can and does piss off people who don’t have an issue with trans people. " | |||
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"Male female & other I would think is quite simple way to sort this problem Would it? Are trans men not male and trans women not female? Who's going in the "Other" box?" No, they're not | |||
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"Are trans men not male and trans women not female? No, they’re not. Male and female are biological sex/chromosomal markers and they cannot be changed." Then why can I buy male and female electrical adapters in B&Q? Do I need a prescription? | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a man" This. I was not 'assigned' a gender, I am male because of my genetic characteristics -- this happened before I was born. Gender and Sex only became considered as separate entities quite recently -- it is more of an ideological phenomenon than a scientific truth, and as such it does not need to be accepted by everyone. In my opinion, modern thinking about a 'gender spectrum' does genuine trans people a disservice and sets women's right back years -- it uses societal norms to confirm gender identity, thus undoing years of work into removing the relevance of gender roles or expectations. Typically, anyone with gender dysphoria wishes to present or live as the opposite sex they were born -- they don't wake up feeling a bit more female from one day to the next, they invest heavily into their transition with surgery, hormones, training and so on; they're not just playing dress-up for the sake of a fetish. Just because you don't conform to societal norms about gender, it doesn't put you in the same league as someone genuinely trans. And that includes TVs or a CDs. They are not transgender/transexual -- and as such, they absolutely need to be separately categorised. Trans women are women, trans men are men and everyone deserves the same rights -- but all this inbetween nonbinary stuff, it's postmodernist garbage. | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a manThis. I was not 'assigned' a gender, I am male because of my genetic characteristics -- this happened before I was born. Gender and Sex only became considered as separate entities quite recently -- it is more of an ideological phenomenon than a scientific truth, and as such it does not need to be accepted by everyone. In my opinion, modern thinking about a 'gender spectrum' does genuine trans people a disservice and sets women's right back years -- it uses societal norms to confirm gender identity, thus undoing years of work into removing the relevance of gender roles or expectations. Typically, anyone with gender dysphoria wishes to present or live as the opposite sex they were born -- they don't wake up feeling a bit more female from one day to the next, they invest heavily into their transition with surgery, hormones, training and so on; they're not just playing dress-up for the sake of a fetish. Just because you don't conform to societal norms about gender, it doesn't put you in the same league as someone genuinely trans. And that includes TVs or a CDs. They are not transgender/transexual -- and as such, they absolutely need to be separately categorised. Trans women are women, trans men are men and everyone deserves the same rights -- but all this inbetween nonbinary stuff, it's postmodernist garbage." I agree with you upto the last point. Trans women arent women and trans men arent men. Hence why they, for the purpose of this site anyway, should be categorised separately from men and women | |||
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" I agree with you upto the last point. Trans women arent women and trans men arent men. Hence why they, for the purpose of this site anyway, should be categorised separately from men and women" I was speaking in terms of human rights and freedom, but on this website, then absolutely -- a deep psychological need to present or transition to the opposite sex needs to be categorised separately from both genetic males/females and fetishistic TVs | |||
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" Trans women are women, trans men are men and everyone deserves the same rights -- but all this inbetween nonbinary stuff, it's postmodernist garbage." Crossdressers & non-binary people have been around for thousands of years in societies all across the world, meanwhile gender dysphoria was not even recognised as a medical ailment until 2013. | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a manThis. I was not 'assigned' a gender, I am male because of my genetic characteristics -- this happened before I was born. Gender and Sex only became considered as separate entities quite recently -- it is more of an ideological phenomenon than a scientific truth, and as such it does not need to be accepted by everyone. In my opinion, modern thinking about a 'gender spectrum' does genuine trans people a disservice and sets women's right back years -- it uses societal norms to confirm gender identity, thus undoing years of work into removing the relevance of gender roles or expectations. Typically, anyone with gender dysphoria wishes to present or live as the opposite sex they were born -- they don't wake up feeling a bit more female from one day to the next, they invest heavily into their transition with surgery, hormones, training and so on; they're not just playing dress-up for the sake of a fetish. Just because you don't conform to societal norms about gender, it doesn't put you in the same league as someone genuinely trans. And that includes TVs or a CDs. They are not transgender/transexual -- and as such, they absolutely need to be separately categorised. Trans women are women, trans men are men and everyone deserves the same rights -- but all this inbetween nonbinary stuff, it's postmodernist garbage." Sex is described as being genetic. It is more complete than xx v xy. So while most people presenting as makes are xy, you couldn't guarantee it. The SRY gene can mutate or be missed from an XY resulting in an XY female. Or can be present in XX makes. Other stuff also contribute to sex determination. This stuff can also be present on the X chromosome. Tbh, it's over my head to understand all that. Suffice to say it looks more complex than what we are taught at school. But then again most science is. Our world effectively looks at genitals. By male, we mean was born with testes. There are sex differences being just genitals. Including in the brain. I suspect thats where the disconnect between "being" a man and "feeling" like a man comes from. And I can imagine that it is possible to get a mix of factors. Especially if biological sex is more than one gene. I suspect that's why someone can fall somewhere on a scale. Although I'd not have the confidence to guess how that's presented. I suspect however it is, it's there from a very young age. So in my view we have two options. Only look at sex as presented at birth. Then it's male and female and NB. With very few people I imagine knowing they are NB by genetic make up (or have genes that would suggest a different sex to the one ascribed to them) Here a trans women would come under man. I'd hope those men that feel strongly that cis man isn't a label would be okay with a trans women labelling themselves the same as they do. (Ditto women and trans men). After all, it's all about sex at birth. Imo, even if that is okay, it's unhelpful here. The site would need a good redesign so that a man who is not looking for single men but is open to bring messaged be a trans women can be messaged. So I get to labels based in both sex at birth, and identity today. I get to that even if I don't have views about if a trans women is a women or not. And imo, it's a bit messy to have the same label for birth sex and this latter 2x2 category. the crux of this is (ignoring the science part) do I believe that someone who was ascribed male at birth (due to testicles) should continue to be classed as a man even after transition. If no, then I'm not defining a man based on genetics. | |||
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"Are trans men not male and trans women not female? No, they’re not. Male and female are biological sex/chromosomal markers and they cannot be changed. Then why can I buy male and female electrical adapters in B&Q? Do I need a prescription? " Ah, but have you ventured ito the world of connectors outside of 240v mains? I have drawers full of things like female plugs and male sockets! | |||
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"No. Im not a 'cis' man. Im a manThis. I was not 'assigned' a gender, I am male because of my genetic characteristics -- this happened before I was born. Gender and Sex only became considered as separate entities quite recently -- it is more of an ideological phenomenon than a scientific truth, and as such it does not need to be accepted by everyone. In my opinion, modern thinking about a 'gender spectrum' does genuine trans people a disservice and sets women's right back years -- it uses societal norms to confirm gender identity, thus undoing years of work into removing the relevance of gender roles or expectations. Typically, anyone with gender dysphoria wishes to present or live as the opposite sex they were born -- they don't wake up feeling a bit more female from one day to the next, they invest heavily into their transition with surgery, hormones, training and so on; they're not just playing dress-up for the sake of a fetish. Just because you don't conform to societal norms about gender, it doesn't put you in the same league as someone genuinely trans. And that includes TVs or a CDs. They are not transgender/transexual -- and as such, they absolutely need to be separately categorised. Trans women are women, trans men are men and everyone deserves the same rights -- but all this inbetween nonbinary stuff, it's postmodernist garbage. Sex is described as being genetic. It is more complete than xx v xy. So while most people presenting as makes are xy, you couldn't guarantee it. The SRY gene can mutate or be missed from an XY resulting in an XY female. Or can be present in XX makes. Other stuff also contribute to sex determination. This stuff can also be present on the X chromosome. Tbh, it's over my head to understand all that. Suffice to say it looks more complex than what we are taught at school. But then again most science is. Our world effectively looks at genitals. By male, we mean was born with testes. There are sex differences being just genitals. Including in the brain. I suspect thats where the disconnect between "being" a man and "feeling" like a man comes from. And I can imagine that it is possible to get a mix of factors. Especially if biological sex is more than one gene. I suspect that's why someone can fall somewhere on a scale. Although I'd not have the confidence to guess how that's presented. I suspect however it is, it's there from a very young age. So in my view we have two options. Only look at sex as presented at birth. Then it's male and female and NB. With very few people I imagine knowing they are NB by genetic make up (or have genes that would suggest a different sex to the one ascribed to them) Here a trans women would come under man. I'd hope those men that feel strongly that cis man isn't a label would be okay with a trans women labelling themselves the same as they do. (Ditto women and trans men). After all, it's all about sex at birth. Imo, even if that is okay, it's unhelpful here. The site would need a good redesign so that a man who is not looking for single men but is open to bring messaged be a trans women can be messaged. So I get to labels based in both sex at birth, and identity today. I get to that even if I don't have views about if a trans women is a women or not. And imo, it's a bit messy to have the same label for birth sex and this latter 2x2 category. the crux of this is (ignoring the science part) do I believe that someone who was ascribed male at birth (due to testicles) should continue to be classed as a man even after transition. If no, then I'm not defining a man based on genetics. " Just please stop. | |||
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"Any votes for 'Real man' or 'Real woman'? Sure I've heard people describing themselves thus from time to time." Real women are the ones with curves. Apparently. | |||
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" Just please stop." why? I find this interesting especially that the school science doesn't match the actual science. I didn't realise that until I started looking. Please feel free to spin past my posts. Or engage with what you disagree with and why. Or point out the toxicity. | |||
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"Non binary here and yes many of us who are non binary identify as trans... But please, please, can we drop year 7 science people. There is actual scientific evidence of how those who are trans are chromosomally, hormonally or neurologically different from those who aren't trans. Plenty of universities have stopped letting students do chromosome tests on themselves because of how many people have unexpected results (can you imagine the counseling needed!)"  | |||
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