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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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In the Telegraph today there is a letter signed by over 40 leading scientists call for the 1952 conviction of gross indecency (admitted by Turing) to be overturned. Today he would have committed no crime as homesexuality is not illegal.
Turing and his team unravelled the Nazi Enigma Codes and according to Churchill curtialed the lastworld war by two years saving (probably) millions of lives.
I think the Catholic Church should cannonise Turing and Make him Saint Alan of Manchester. I maybe being a little optimistic?  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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That would be like trying to unhang someone who was hung when hanging was a permissable form of punishment in this country.
Turing, brilliant as he was, knew that his sexuality would lead to problems if he was open about it. Many people in power and/or celebrity at the time were also gay but knew better than to put it out on public display. It was a crime then and he was punished for it. We now better know of course, but you can't go back in time and exonerate one person for homosexuality or you'd have to exonerate them all. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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He was found guilty of something that was a criminal offence at that time.
We cannot now judge him by modern standards or say he did no wrong because it's ok now.
Neither can we offer any concessions on the basis of his undoubted brilliance.
He committed an offence. He was tried and convicted of that offence.
That really should be the end of it.
I am sure he would much sooner be remembered for his brilliance and his invaluable service to both the war and the country, rather than as being the man who was convicted of gross indecency at a time that such convictions were both legal and commonplace.
Whether such practices were right is another question all together of course. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"That would be like trying to unhang someone who was hung when hanging was a permissable form of punishment in this country.
Turing, brilliant as he was, knew that his sexuality would lead to problems if he was open about it. Many people in power and/or celebrity at the time were also gay but knew better than to put it out on public display. It was a crime then and he was punished for it. We now better know of course, but you can't go back in time and exonerate one person for homosexuality or you'd have to exonerate them all."
Good point but his death was directly related to his "crime" and maybe it would be a gesture by a grateful nation for his work? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"he has a nice piece of ring road named after him what more do they want "
there is also a statue of him in sackville park in manchester
the statue depicts him biting into an apple
sackville park is pretty well known as being a venue for late night rendezvous between gentlemen of a certain leaning
whether the city planners placed it there as an ironic gesture i am not too sure ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I am sure that he and many others who were sent to jail back then would be glad that the law has changed, maybe in part because they stood up and took the punishment, but as so aptly put you can't un-hang the hanged. so just leave it alone. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"he has a nice piece of ring road named after him what more do they want
there is also a statue of him in sackville park in manchester
the statue depicts him biting into an apple
sackville park is pretty well known as being a venue for late night rendezvous between gentlemen of a certain leaning
whether the city planners placed it there as an ironic gesture i am not too sure !"
Some saay the Apple TM (the bitten apple) is a direct tribute to Turing who allegedly took his own life by biting into a cyanide laced apple. As for the statue I have only been during the day....and yes it would be a delious irony if the location was intentional!! |
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"That would be like trying to unhang someone who was hung when hanging was a permissable form of punishment in this country.
Turing, brilliant as he was, knew that his sexuality would lead to problems if he was open about it. Many people in power and/or celebrity at the time were also gay but knew better than to put it out on public display. It was a crime then and he was punished for it. We now better know of course, but you can't go back in time and exonerate one person for homosexuality or you'd have to exonerate them all."
He wasn't actually open about his homosexuality. His boyfriend had encouraged a friend to burgle Turing's house, and had confessed such to Turing.
Turing's grave error was to go to the police re the burglary with the name of the likely suspect. The suspect consequently informed the police about Turing's homosexual relationship and Turing was subsequently charged with Gross Indecency. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They should have tributes to Bill Tutte and Tommy Flowers too... Turing was only part of the story.
Wolf
"
and Quentin Crisp
not that he's related
just because ! |
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"I am sure that he and many others who were sent to jail back then would be glad that the law has changed, maybe in part because they stood up and took the punishment, but as so aptly put you can't un-hang the hanged. so just leave it alone."
He wasn't sent to prison, he was offered either imprisonment or chemical castration, he opted for the latter. The effect of the castration created a hormonal imbalance that led to the deterioration of his analytical thinking. Unable to live with this he committed suicide by eating a poisoned apple. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I am sure that he and many others who were sent to jail back then would be glad that the law has changed, maybe in part because they stood up and took the punishment, but as so aptly put you can't un-hang the hanged. so just leave it alone.
He wasn't sent to prison, he was offered either imprisonment or chemical castration, he opted for the latter. The effect of the castration created a hormonal imbalance that led to the deterioration of his analytical thinking. Unable to live with this he committed suicide by eating a poisoned apple."
Or was it that being a homosexual in those days meant he could be easily blackmailed and turned into an enemy agent and divulge the ultra secret...
I maintain it was damage limitation, surrounded by an almost plausible deniability that usually accompanies the demise of anyone who 'knows too much'.
Wolf |
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"I am sure that he and many others who were sent to jail back then would be glad that the law has changed, maybe in part because they stood up and took the punishment, but as so aptly put you can't un-hang the hanged. so just leave it alone.
He wasn't sent to prison, he was offered either imprisonment or chemical castration, he opted for the latter. The effect of the castration created a hormonal imbalance that led to the deterioration of his analytical thinking. Unable to live with this he committed suicide by eating a poisoned apple.
Or was it that being a homosexual in those days meant he could be easily blackmailed and turned into an enemy agent and divulge the ultra secret...
I maintain it was damage limitation, surrounded by an almost plausible deniability that usually accompanies the demise of anyone who 'knows too much'.
Wolf"
He died in 1954 long after Bletchley and the 'ultra secret'..what did he 'know too much' of ? |
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"That would be like trying to unhang someone who was hung when hanging was a permissable form of punishment in this country.
Turing, brilliant as he was, knew that his sexuality would lead to problems if he was open about it. Many people in power and/or celebrity at the time were also gay but knew better than to put it out on public display. It was a crime then and he was punished for it. We now better know of course, but you can't go back in time and exonerate one person for homosexuality or you'd have to exonerate them all."
Not too sure you cant exonerate them all
to be honest ,they exonerated all of the shot deserters of ww1 with one swipe of a pen 306 of them and rightly so.
Turing's team or the golden goose as Churchill called them definitely saved hundreds of thousands of lives during WW2.But without Tommy Flowers the man who invented the worlds first programmable electronic computer,its doubtful whether Turing's work would have been as effective.
Don't get me wrong I do not deny Turing's contribution he was a genius ,but only one of many who made significant contributions to cryptography. I think quashing his conviction would be a fitting way of acknowledging his contribution.
But they all need far more recognition than they received in my view. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I am sure that he and many others who were sent to jail back then would be glad that the law has changed, maybe in part because they stood up and took the punishment, but as so aptly put you can't un-hang the hanged. so just leave it alone.
He wasn't sent to prison, he was offered either imprisonment or chemical castration, he opted for the latter. The effect of the castration created a hormonal imbalance that led to the deterioration of his analytical thinking. Unable to live with this he committed suicide by eating a poisoned apple.
Or was it that being a homosexual in those days meant he could be easily blackmailed and turned into an enemy agent and divulge the ultra secret...
I maintain it was damage limitation, surrounded by an almost plausible deniability that usually accompanies the demise of anyone who 'knows too much'.
Wolf
He died in 1954 long after Bletchley and the 'ultra secret'..what did he 'know too much' of ?"
In 1954, in fact right up until the late 60's, the work Turing, Tutte and others did at Bletchley was the basis of on-going code breaking by GCHQ. All the time the analysis systems being used were developments of Engima, Shark decryptions, Turings knowledge could be used to help an enemy 'catch up' - and, in those days, as an 'outed' homosexual he would have been considered a very real security risk.
It was a very different world back then, and it is all too easy to apply our views etc to what went on then. And you know what they say about hindsight....
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Don't get me wrong I do not deny Turing's contribution he was a genius,but only one of many who made significant contributions to cryptography. I think quashing his conviction would be a fitting way of acknowledging his contribution.
But they all need far more recognition than they received in my view. "
It should also be remembered that the Ultra Secret was only revealed in 1974 (I think) when Wing Cmdr F W Winterbottom suddenly published 'The Ultra Secret'. The following year, the secret papers were published by the Govt at the end of their 30 year embargo.
At that time, an awful lot of the people who worked with Turing were STILL very much alive - and a few were still working in cryptography.
It is not beyond the bounds of 'creativity' that it was useful to create the legend surrounding Alan Turing to divert attention from any on going work, and from others involved at the time.
Turing himself may well have provided the Govt yet another 'Golden Egg' when he died 20 years previously...
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the ultra secret'was still used
to break Russian decripts I think;
but the code breaking wasn't even
made public by the time world at war was made in 71/72
think turing deserves something saved a lot of lives esp at sea |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I think the Catholic Church should cannonise Turing and Make him Saint Alan of Manchester. I maybe being a little optimistic? "
The Catholic Church? One of the driving forces* behind the persecution of gays and lesbians? Anyway I understand he was an atheist.
The legal journalist David Allen Green has pointed out that there are men still alive that were convicted of having sex in the privacy of their own home under that nasty Victorian law so they should be pardoned.
As many others have rightly said there were a number of computing/code-breaking people to whom we owe a massive thanks. But since their names does not start with Lord, or Earl of Viscount, the establishment would rather forget about them.
.
* Catholic church, along with most other organised superstitions of course. |
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"the ultra secret'was still used
to break Russian decripts I think;
but the code breaking wasn't even
made public by the time world at war was made in 71/72
think turing deserves something saved a lot of lives esp at sea"
And in the Air,during the Battle of Britain Dowding had access to ultra and got the squadron dispositions for the day,hence the in house spat over the Big Wing concept from Bader and 12 group happened. It is said Sir Keith Park head of 11 group was the only man who could of lost the war in an afternoon,thank god via dowding he had access to ultra. |
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"the ultra secret'was still used
to break Russian decripts I think;
but the code breaking wasn't even
made public by the time world at war was made in 71/72
think turing deserves something saved a lot of lives esp at sea"
Your right it was, the russians took the enigma machine (or its latest incarnation) and carried on using it post war.Hence the secrecy rules meaning lots of people did not get the recognition due to them,post war. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Turing is a fascinating character all rond.
I'm reading about him at present.
He has material relatinmg to hios homosexuality, and a lot is made of it, but obviously he was a brilliant man who played a vital part if our war effort.
Beyond this he was quite a complicater character, and his work was rather unconventional, leasding on to concepts for which he has been credited as being the inventor of modern computing and processing.
He has also, for quite some time now, had "future" accolades placed at his feet due to the credit he gains in modern science fiction via "Turing Compliance".
Rather like Asimov and his "three Laws"
... as you were ... |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
I'm sorry to have missed this thread when it was live.
Turing didn't make it into the 60 Great Elizabethans and I was disappointed about the omission.
The only way he should be posthumously pardoned is if there is a pardon for everyone convicted for being gay.
I don't always agree with Max Hastings but he was right when he commented that where would it stop?
The Turing story has interested me for quite some time and I think he should be honoured in some way (other than a ring road) but pardoning someone for something that is not a crime now but was then is not honouring his genius. |
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